The FAS 604 single stroke pneumatic air pistol.
SigAir SuperTarget air pistol revisited Part 3
This report covers:
- Comparison
- Finish
- Grips
- Sights
- Trigger
- Unlocking catch
- Summary
Just a quick report on my late sister Nan. At the Tulsa Air and Space Museum after the funeral last Friday they celebrated her life and I learned many things I didn’t know. Apparently she was one of the foremost female aviators in the world! The State of Oklahoma, the center of aviation in the US, presented me with a certificate of their condolences.
And shootski, the Air and Space Museum selected High Flight for the inside cover of their program.
The Tulsa Air and Space Museum has set aside space to honor women aviators and they have named it after Nan. I therefore donated all her flying trophies and certificates to them for display as they see fit.
Today we start looking at the FAS 604 single stroke pneumatic air pistol. I had been looking for one to buy, but one popped up from a friend of Ian McKee who resealed it for the guy. He then sent it to me for testing with the owner’s blessing. That’s the pistol we’re examining in this series.
Comparison
Normally I don’t compare airguns but the 604 is the earlier version of the FAS 6004 that, but for the name, is the same as the SigAir Super Target pistol. I tested one of those for you last year, but I want to remind you that the pistol I tested was a preproduction release. In today’s report I’ll refer to it as the SuperTarget.
The question is—how do the two airguns compare and how do they differ? Everyone says they differ mostly in quality, but that’s not very descriptive. To my eye they differ in the details of the shape. The 604 has more angular planes than the 6004/SuperTarget.
Finish
The finish on the SuperTarget appears matte, but it shines in many places. Until you see a 604 finish that is truly matte, you would think the SuperTarget finish is okay, but the 604 puts it to shame in this area. Remember, though, the 6004 is a preproduction airgun.
Grips
The 604 grips are much more ergonomic. The SuperTarget grips are very fat and rounded. They don’t support the shooting hand for target shooting.
The 604 grips almost grip my hand as well as a 10-meter target pistol, though the palm shelf doesn’t adjust. It fits my medium-sized hand very well.
The 604 grip is very ergonomic. The shiny black thing behind the trigger is the overtravel adjustment screw. It adjusts by a thin wire stuck into the small holes around its periphery to turn it in or out. The 6004 doesn’t have this.
Sights
The sights on both pistols are fine and adjustable in both directions. The rear sight on the SuperTarget has adjustment directions engraved on the top. The 604 sight has nothing, so in this respect the SuperTarget is better.
SuperTarget rear sight.
The front sight blade on the 604 is removable, and the one on the test pistol is wider than the front sight blade on the SuperTarget.
Trigger
The triggers on both pistols adjust but that’s where the similarity ends. The SuperTarget trigger is two-stage but stage two is difficult to find and also mushy on the release. It also sits far back in the triggerguard. The 604 trigger stands out well away from the rear of the triggerguard.
Here the SuperTarget trigger is adjusted out almost as far as it will go.
The 604 trigger is close to a 10-meter target pistol trigger. It has a crisp and positive second stage and zero creep! This is where the quality of the pistol comes to the front.
Unlocking catch
The SuperTarget uses a fake hammer as the locking catch for the top strap, similar to the Weihrauch HW 45/Beeman P1. The 604 has a thin metal plate that’s pushed in to unlock the top strap. I do note that the 604 locks up so tight that it’s sometimes difficult to pry the top up.
The flat metal plate is the top strap catch. To unlock the top strap push that plate into the gun.
Summary
In general the FAS 604 has more detailing in its construction, while the SigAir SuperTarget looks like more of a rush job. Again, my SuperTarget is a preproduction pistol, so the pistols that made it into production may not be quite as described today.
B.B.
Unfortunately, we learn a lot about our loved ones once they are gone….
The FAS 604, looks like a hand pincher to me!
-Yogi
I agree with Yogi’s thoughts about our loved ones.
A hand pincher?
Not in the least, your grip hand is well away from anywhere there is a possible pinch point.
And the cocking effort is extremely manageable.
But that is for Tom to cover in part two or three.
Ian
Yogi,
A hand-pincher? So far I haven’t found it to be one. It’s quite easy to close the top strap and I just watch where I place my hands.
BB
Yes, but when shooting, hand placement is not the first thing on my mind. Unless it is an over the barrel cocker, then it is the only thing on my mind.
-Yogi
I have big hands…find most ‘large’ gloves to be tight. I don’t find my FAS to be a hand pincher at all.
CSD,
That’a good to know.
BB
She now soars on the wings of angels.
BB,
This would likely be a good match up with my Izzy. It is a shame it is not yours.
It does sound as if the Italians really dropped the ball when they made the Super Target. Likely it was because Sig Sauer was not going to pay enough for true quality. The “new” Webley seems to have done the same with Hatsan.
One of my other hobbies is a computer flight simulator. I have a virtual reality headset that is used with it. The sensation of being able to just look around by turning your head makes it a lot more realistic. Anyway, I would be interested in learning more about your sister and her accomplishments if you care to share some of that stuff.
The FAS 604 pistol looks like a nice one. Thanks for the report.
Elmer,
My friend is into computer flight simulator. Cool stuff, but then I stepped into the hydraulicly mounted, computer-controlled Boeing 767 cockpit flight simulator over at ABX Air in Ohio. It’s a complete aircraft cockpit set up for every emergency situation training. It moves you as it would in flight. (Picture online)
How realistic? I had to keep telling myself “This is not real; you are not going to die!” But I know what it’s like to control one now. In the air that is. On the ground in real life at the airport, no problem! Just very BIG and demanding of situational awareness. It becomes one with your mind and an extension of your body control. Unlike a car, you constantly need to be thinking about what you are doing and stay in touch with Ground Control for every movement.
That must have been amazing Bob. I first became interested in flight simulation shortly after the nine-eleven tragedy. I was thinking that if I was ever up in a plane and something happened, I would want to at least have a clue as to what to do if necessary.
A few years before that I was the project manager for the construction of an HVAC system for an installation of an F-16 simulator at NAS Atlanta at Dobbins AFB. It was somewhat similar to the one you described. At the end of the project I was offered a chance to try it out. But I lacked the interest, had no clue about what to do in it, and we were extremely busy with a bunch of projects for the Olympics coming to town. So, I declined the offer, which, of course, now I regret. But I did fly up to the simulator manufacturer’s facility near Washington DC to look at some of their other simulators for larger airplanes in order to bid on another project (which we did not secure).
Elmer Fudd,
Early in my Flight Training we had Full Function mock-up of actual cockpits for cockpit familiarization and procedural training that was used to get you to know your cockpit by touch and 3D positional awareness with your eyes shut toward the end of that training. The next step was done in Singer-Link Flight Trainers (that were stationary) but able to perform basic and advanced Radio Instrument simulation with no exterior images.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Aviation_Devices
Eventually i flew aircraft that had some of the first FULL MOTION hydraulic simulation followed shortly by partial visual simulation achieved by building scale model environments on platforms attached to the walls of the simulator building with gantry mounted multi camera heads flying according to simulator inputs. That is when a shoe dropped that no one had anticipated…SAS.
SAS or SIS: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2785382/
It still be devils Aviators to this day.
I personally HATE full motion simulators for substitute flight time accounting because they instil FALSE confidence in drivers and worse yet you get to do Do Overs when you screw up.
shootski
Thanks Shootski, yes I agree that flight simulators can have adverse effects. For me it is just a casual fun hobby that I occasionally enjoy for short periods of time. I haven’t noticed any issues from my use. I don’t take it seriously at all or try to actually train for anything.
Elmer Fudd,
Ed Links early simulator the Pilot Maker was purchased by amusement parks long before the US Army Air Corps bought a bunch after the Air Mail Scandal.
shootski
Elmer,
I also thought about the possibility of jumping into the pilot’s seat in an emergency situation. The training I had in the simulator was limited to things that may happen while taxiing around the airport. The flying around part was just a little fun, and eye an opener, afterwards.
We would have to go to a specific area to do high-power engine run-ups without blowing small aircraft and vehicles all over the place with the jet exhaust.
I would probably be able to work the flight controls, but you would also need to know ALL the aircrafts instruments, radios, flight operating limits like airspeed for flap extension and be familiar with airspeed / throttle control, the airport communication frequency.
I would need to be talked down by a qualified pilot. Just too much need-to-know information and control going on. Might have to change my pants afterwords. Talking about a large commercial aircraft here.
Without knowing how the aircraft actually responds to control inputs, you would be pushing your luck. Be sure to buckle up! Gives me the Willies just thinking about it.
Bob, I agree with everything you said. I would never want to be in that situation. But if it ever happened that I was, I would want to at least have a clue about how to fly an airplane. Before I got started with the computer flight simulator I had no clue. I would freak out if that situation was thrust upon me, but I wouldn’t be totally freaked out. 😉
Seems your sister may have been a combination Amelia Earhart-Jackie Cochran lady; obviously modest too in contrast to the narcissistic, attention-seeking types around these days. No doubt her soul is freely soaring in Heavenly Airspace.
Tom,
Since SIG seems to be getting out of the airgun market is there somebody who is going to continue the production of the SigAir SuperTarget?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
As far as I know the answer is no.
BB
Happily, I purchased an ASP Super Target, and I have really enjoyed it. Sig Sauer intended that the Super Target would look and handle like the Sig P210. I don’t own the Sig 9mm, but I can say that the ASP has the feel and the trigger of a real pistol, it has excellent sights, and it’s fairly accurate. Fun to shoot, and I wonder if the groups from the real thing are similar. Sig called ASPST “entry level” as a target gun.
I have been “won over” to the idea of shooting replica guns. My Umarex GUW019 CO2 pellet pistol feels very much the same as the real G19, trigger and all. Again, just a fun thing to shoot.
BB,
You must be full of pride with all that your sister Nan has accomplished in life. She is beloved in the greatness of God.
The 604 seems to be a very likeable gun for plinkers. They did a nice job making her look pretty and gave her a fine trigger. Looking forward to seeing how well she does for you on paper.
You’ll notice some degree of contrast between the triggers of the 604 and the Umarex Markpoint, when you get to using that pistol ;).
Will
Will,
From what I’ve heard the Markpoint trigger is heavy.
BB
Heavy shmevy. I’m not saying anything more.
From my experience with a FAS6004, what you describe as a nice tight lock up might be more a case of the overlever release catch – basically an L-shaped plate – only just clearing the lip on the rear of the frame it engages with. Try opening the gun – not even enough to set the trigger mechanism, just to get a bit of daylight between the overlever and frame – and then try closing it. Does it close smoothly, with the catch gently riding over its seat?
I ended up doing a bit of work on mine to be able to open and close the gun more easily: polish the catch bright and smooth the edges to get rid of the stamped metal look on the edges; take a bit from the front of the catch so it only protrudes where it needs to engage with the frame; and put a bit of a chamfer on the underside to help it close.
I have to admit it took me a while to realise that part of the problem was what the catch did when you pressed the lever in: the bit that engages with the frame does indeed move back to release, but the bit closest to the lever – this side of the pivot – moves, well, forward. That needed filing back slightly so that with the release lever pressed, absolutely nothing protrudes that might snag on the frame.
The big worry with these is that the alloy construction isn’t something you want to dismantle and reassemble too many times just to see how they work. There are alot of holes close together and not very much metal in the overlever where the release catch and rearsight are. (The grip attachment, on the other hand, is a steel bolt into a steel insert and removing that allows pretty good access to the innards.)
Iain
Lain,
Thanks for that tip. If this was my airgun I would look into it, but since it belongs to another person, I can’t.
BB
Oh, I appreciate you can’t tinker with it.
I’m not an expert on the history of the original FAS 604, but I notice the one you have to test has the older (?) design of overlever with a definite zig-zag in the overlever where it thins out in front of the rearsight. I’ve seen one or two mentions of this being a point where cracks can start – this later became a gentle curve.
I know you’ve touched on the difference between the 604 and Sig, but the comparison of where they sit in the hand is worth making.
Iain (eye – aye – eye – enn. Just saying.)
B.B. and Readership,
For those interested in more about Nanette (Nan) Gaylord you can start here:
https://awtar.airraceclassic.org/racer-name-search.htm?summary=9648-74DBD1111727A31A2B825D615D80B2E7
Nanette and teammate were the Winners of the very last Powder Puff Derby. The Powder Puff race had been flown across the USA for many years and often by hundreds of teams and was very competitive.
She was a COMPETENT Aviatrix.
shootski
shootski,
Thanks. I will give her Powder Puff trophy to the Tulsa Air and Space Museum, to go into her room. It seems only fitting.
BB
B.B.,
I don’t know if you are her Executor but all the donations should be valued and considered in any Taxes that are due on Nan’s Estate.
The High Flight poem inclusion by the Folks in Tulsa was most appropriate.
shootski
“The Tulsa Air and Space Museum has set aside space to honor women aviators and they have named it after Nan. I therefore donated all her flying trophies and certificates to them for display as they see fit.”
BB, that’s awesome! What a tribute to Nan! 🙂
BB,
I believe Aviators are a special breed of brave competent people.
I don’t know if it’s my life experience as an Aircraft Maintenance Technician fixing things that have failed or indirectly placing my life in the hands of people, I know nothing about, but I have made the decision not to fly unless I absolutely have to. The risk is not worth the reward to me, knowing what I do.
True they are statistically safer than driving but you can walk away from a lot of car crashes. Aircraft?
It’s certainly an exciting experience and tempting for the young to want to get into but, were they fully aware of what they were getting into? Fortunately training and qualifications make sure the people that do, continue on after they are fully aware. Professional pilots give up a lot of their life to the job. I have spoken to many but fortunately pay compensates some, after many years of experience.
I can’t believe you never mentioned your sister flying after all the stuff Shootski and I bring up, Perhaps I just forgot? I believe I would have enjoyed talking to her if we ever met.
AI will surely decrease the number of outstanding Aviators like your sister in the future. Hope not. I trust computers even less. AI has not impressed me so far.
Got a picture of her in her prime?
Never mind. Opened the link above.
Bob,
I see no good picture of Nan on that linked page. I’ll post one a little later
BB
Bob,
Okay, this is Nan either in high school or college. I can’t remember if I mentioned this or not but she way a Playboy Bunny and also an ordained minister. That’s a combination you don’t often see.
BB
BB,
An attractive and vibrant looking girl. Certainly, looks like she could do whatever she wanted to.
I assumed she was the one holding the trophy in the middle of the picture.
I remember those colorized black and white school pictures. Might have one of myself. They touched them up to make just about everyone look better and feel better about themself. The big school yearbook worry, how did my picture turn out?
BB
Looks like my sister will survive breast cancer with a less than a 4% reoccurrence risk. Still needs cancer and some lymph nodes removal. Determined cause was too much estrogen in milk glands caused ruptures. Fact check, alcohol promotes estrogen build up. Too much of the good life partying around her pool in FL. Send you a pic, if I can find them. She was a stunner as well. Believe she went to Woodstock back in the day.
Bob,
That’s great news about your sister! Praise the Lord!
BB
Bob M,
Most Aviators with more than three or four thousand hours would agree with you.
I can still remember the introduction of the Automatic landing systems for land based and shipboard landings. Funny there are still Landing Signals Officers (LSOs) waving on board the Aircraft Carriers and most all the Traps are still flown manually all these decades later.
shootski
Shootski,
Well, they obviously still need to know how to fly without computer assist. An EMP took out the Dot sight on my M4 in a game. I had to swap for one with fixed sights.
But come to think about it, Helicopters were also falling out of the sky. All electrics were out.
I really like 604s, and have two of them.
They were, in the 70s-80s, a very competitive 10M pistol.
They featured a variety of grip designs, and an optional front sight extension thingy.
Lovely pistols. Modelled to mimic FAS’s target pistols in 22LR and 32”.