10-meter rifle target.
This report covers:
This one will be different.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Today we’re going to help a new airgunner get started. We’ll call him Larry and last week he sent me this message:
I’m 78, retired, and considering getting started in 10m air rifles. I have no interest in or expectation of reaching state grade shooting; this would strictly be club shooting for fun. Having read up on what’s available, it seems that the Crosman Challenger CH2021 meets my present needs and reasonable growth.
I have some limited knowledge and experience in small bore target shooting, but even that was 60 years ago. And I have no experience setting up a new air rifle to do what I want it to do.
After reading (and enjoying) a number of your posts, I think that I’d want to:
(1) Max fill the cylinder, shoot, and chronograph the shots to identify the fill pressure for the plateau’s start and the number of shots that I could expect before drop off – I plan to use generic pellets of around 8 grains and iterate 1 pellet / 4 dry fires/ 10 second pause
Larry, you are off to a good start. If I were testing an air rifle that gets 200 good shots per fill like the Challenger 2021 I would do even more than 4 dry-fires between pellets. But instead of between each pellet I think I would shoot a string of 10 recorded shots followed by 10 dry-fires.
You do need to know something though. Sometimes if there is no pellet in the bore the valve may not remain open as long. If that happens less air will be exhausted.
I put may and less in italics because it’s just what I believe—not something I’m certain of.
I suppose you are pausing 10 second to allow the regulator plenum to refill. Play with that and maybe you’ll be able to get it down to a lot less time. Your velocity will tell you what is required.
The rest of what you said sounds very good to me, but perhaps our readers have something to add. Now let’s continue with your questions.
(2) Adjust the hammer spring and travel to try to improve the shot count
I would ask why you are doing this. I have not tested the Crosman Challenger CH2021 yet. I probably should, but I have tested the Crosman Challenger 2009 that was an earlier and much less-sophisticated version of the rifle. I got 72 good shots on a fill to 2000 psi / 137.9 bar. Pyramyd AIR says the rifle you want gets 200 shots per 3000 psi / 206 bar fill.
The Crosman Challenger CH2021 that Larry is considering.
The Crosman 2009 Challenger that I have tested.
A man’s 10-meter match is 60 shots. Of course your club may do something different but what I’m saying is there are a LOT of shots on one fill of these target rifles! In this case I would not concern myself with increasing the shot count. Two hundred shots will wear you out!
Then Larry said:
(1) and (2) would seem to give me a stable, regulated working pressure to use in choosing a pellet
I have to agree with that. It seems you have read how these airguns operate and are ready to do this yourself! Then you said:
(3) Shoot 10 shots from each of a selection of pellets to find which one performs best in that rifle
Yep, that is the best way to find the right pellet. The only thing I would add to this is sometimes things may happen to throw pellets in the wrong direction. So if you get nine or even eight pellets in a tight group with one or two fliers, I’d test that pellet again.
Also, you may get tired during this testing. So doing this test over a period of days is a good idea. Then your next comment was:
(4) Adjust the trigger (the club has a rigid mount that engages the fore-arm slot to retain the aim point between shots. . . As my personal accuracy isn’t needed for the setups above, I should be able to do this at any time)
After reading about the rigid mount you have perhaps my comment about testing over multiple days isn’t necessary for determining the best pellet. But If I got eight or nine in a tight group with one of two fliers I would still test that pellet again.
Then you asked:
Is that a good sequence? Is there an additional adjustment that I should add? I would sincerely appreciate any suggestions or insight that you could offer.
Larry, it sounds like you are an organized guy who has done his research. I think your approach is perfect. I also think your choice of target rifles is ideal for what you want to do.
I hope you understand why I made my answer to you an entire blog report instead of just replying via email. Your questions were so fundamental that I thought everyone needed to see them. You have shown a lot of people one good way to get started with an airgun!
The great thing about this blog is that the readers are also very qualified to address your concerns. So the comments may be even more helpful and thorough than my answers!
One last thing—Merry Christmas!
Mr. Larry,
I believe i agree in your choice of the Crosman Challenger CH2021 for your club level 10m shooting.
A little background on what kind of shoots your club does would be helpful to know what additional advice the Readership could supply.
For starters is club fun activity going to include off hand, kneeling, and prone shooting?
If so you should get a competition type sling.
Before you do much more after buying the CH2021 i would check/clean the bore charge it and shoot it with no adjustments right out of the box for at least 500 shots. Why? You don’t want to do a bunch of testing before you are certain it isn’t a lemon that fails early in your ownership. Yes Crosman tests the rifle and it will likely not leak or fail to shoot tight groups. But…the shipping company did have it for a few days of throwing it around between them and you. You also want to get the feel for the rifle and learn to know everything that handling and shooting teaches you about your particular rifle. Shoot at least 500 or so pellets during you first encounters to get the feel and measure of your rifle.
Hopefully you know from your reading this blog that most of us use a drop or so of RWS silicon Chamber oil on the Foster fitting on fills.
How are you planning to charge your rifle with air? What if anything does your Club provide for fills?
Also, you know to do the fills in a way that keeps the fill assembly and pressure tube from getting HOT.
I have a number of airguns for a number different uses but i also own a number of 10m guns, to include the CH2021, which is really fun airgun that shoots amazingly well for the price point…and even better than the Crosman folks claim.
Merry Christmas,
shootski
Shootski,
Agreed… incoming inspection, basic cleaning, a quick check/recording of baseline stats then off to the range for a tin of relaxed plinking.
I consider the first 500 pellets to be the “honeymoon” period when I get comfortable with the airgun and we learn each other’s preferences.
Yup, No point in tuning or tweaking until the shooter and the airgun have settled down.
Hank
Larry,
Now is the time to register so you can answer the comments.
BB
BB,
Considering that the winter indoor shooting season has just begun this is perfect timing for a blog on getting into 10 meter target shooting!
Thought I’d second this as it is very true for any activity that requires physical and mental training:
<<>>
I’ve seen that with newbies, the (critical) mental part of shooting is often lost during their efforts to shot good scores.
When target shooting where physical calm and intense focus is required I shoot deliberately. Each shot is single-loaded, each shot is analyzed, and stats for each shot are recorded as part of the process of clearing my mind in preparation for the next shot.
I limit myself to 5-shot strings then take a mental break by sitting up and looking around. After a session (five, 5-shot strings) I top off the reservoir pressure, pull a couple of patches through the barrel and set out five more rows of five pellets in preparation for the next session.
The refill and cleaning is not “necessary” but it gives me a break and ensures that the PCP is in the same state for each session. That and I’m a creature of habit 🙂
I mentioned my process because I’m curious how you and other people approach the mental part of target shooting.
Merry Christmas all!
Hank
Welcome Larry!
You are going to really enjoy shooting that air rifle! Soon it will seem like eating peanuts, most especially if your club has an indoor 10-meter range. You will likely find you go through a tin of pellets faster than a pair of rabbits.
Get to know her and how she likes to dance and she will give you hours of pleasure. Like shootski says, give her a drop or two of silicone oil every once in a while, and she will likely keep purring right along for years.
Have a most Blessed Christmas and a wonderful New Year!
I’m 78 and retired as well and I may try shooting at a 10-meter target.
To save time and avoid getting tired I can shoot 10ea. of 3 different pellets in one trigger pull and 60 shots with 2 trigger pulls and one magazine change.
Life is too short to not use full auto?
Merry Christmas, all!
Berserkeley Mike,
Can even save time aiming. Hitting the target is pretty much guaranteed, sooner or later.
Larry,
Welcome to the blog! How often will the club be meeting? How far are you from the facility? You might want to consider including dry firing at home a lot more if it takes a special trip to get to the shooting club’s range.
Siraniko
Tom,
Section This report covers: 10th sentence: “I put may and less in italics because it’s just what I believe—not sometyhing (something) I’m certain of.”
Siraniko,
Thanks. I fixed it.
BB
Welcome Larry to this airgunners’ tribe; wish you much success and satisfaction in the sport of 10-meter shooting.
FM isn’t going to get into competitive 10-meter shooting but he has concluded he will be more content and relaxed shooting the Casa FM sproingers at 10m – another Round Tooit to get 10m targets. Maybe those can be stocking-stuffers. Hope you all get what you asked Airgun Santa for but don’t shoot your eyes out, kids!
Merry Christmas to all and/or a Blessed Season, whatever works for ye. If the Feast of Festivus is perhaps your “thing,” FM humbly believes this is a perfect theme tune for it.
https://youtu.be/mG75mub4Ocw?si=QjJKk6qrkd-T9PDc
Hi guys, I’m not familiar with the use of silicone oil apart from using it on the external o rings occasionally. Are you saying you get it into the internals whilst filling with air?
Tom, your blog is fantastic and I try to post links to your articles on our Airgunforums forum whenever I remember to do so. Keep up the good work!
Oh, Merry Christmas guys from a 80year old in Surrey,England. Have a great one!
Jim
Greetings to you, Dagwood.
Others can confirm and share their favorite brand of oil, but I just wanted to insert a reminder here for you and other newbies like me, to only use high flashpoint silicone oil inside a high pressure air PCP.
Dagwood,
I use a product called Super Lube. I have also used RWS Chamber Oil.
Aren’t you supposed to wish us a Happy Christmas? I’m just sayin’. 😉
BB
Thanks for the replies and a Happy Christmas to you all!
Jim
Jim,
Welcome to the blog! It’s good to hear from you in Surry.
You don’t perhaps live in Little Whinging? 🙂
BB
Ha Ha! Sorry Tom but no, My Grandaughter is also a Harry Potter fan.
While I think of it, your blog re air rifle v rimfire has sparked off interest in resurrecting a club competition that faded away when the pandemic hit us. We were shooting 100yds prone – that being the only way we are allowed to shoot on our100yd range – and being the UK all our air rifles are sub 12fpe. Your blog had someone saying “They can do that over there as all their rifles are FAC ( ie over 12fpe) and look how heavy the pellets are they’re using”
That got some of us reminding others that we used to shoot 100yds and that it is no problem for sub12fpe, albeit might be none too wise to shoot on a windy day! So shortly, and preferably when it’s warmer and less windy, we’ll be back shooting 100yds thanks to your blog! We look forward to seeing how that progresses although I wouldn’t bet on any of us getting sub 3″ groups!
All best,
Jim
Jim,
Thank you. Once more I have earned the title Enabler! 🙂
BB
Jim,
Baked bean tins are easy enough to hit with my 11 ft-lb HW35e at 100 yards in still conditions. The cans at 4.25″ high and a shade under 3″ in width.
I’ve never shot groups on paper with it at that distance, but must try, as I’m curious to find out if sub 3″ groups are possible with it.
Need to try my HW30s at 100 yards also. Have never taken it past 70-75 yards. With only 7 or 8 ft-lb at the muzzle, the slightest crosswind would blow pellets way off course at that range, so will need to wait for a dead calm day.
Happy Christmas to you and everyone on here
Bob Ryan,
“…slightest crosswind would blow pellets way off course at that range, so will need to wait for a dead calm day.” There is a small amount of truth in that statement but not for the condition/cause which most shooters actually believe is occuring. In fact it isn’t at all like the upstream heading correction that is needed to paddle or row a boat straight across a flowing river or to fly an aircraft on a given straight course over the Earth with a crosswind. This link is to what is actually happening:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/liftf.htm#header
Take note of this statement made: “The lift force vanishes in the absence of yaw and is the reason for the drift of a spinning projectile even in the absence of wind.”
Nothing in External Ballistics is ever simple!
IF the wind is steady in force and direction (or absent altogether) you should have no problem getting that HW30 to group at 100. It just takes holdover and perhaps some holdoff.
shootski
Hi Bob
I’d really prefer to shoot the 100yds with myTx200’s but having to do this in the prone position i find cocking the Tx’s and even breaking the barrel on my HW95’s really awkward, whilst laying down, without doing a complete body twist. That catch on the HW35 must make it so much easier.
Oh for the wide open spaces you have in the States! Our 100yd range has houses a short distance beyond it and that has forced the club to make it a prone range with a baffle to prevent the rifles being raised too high and shooting over the end wall which is about 15ft high.
There must be a knack to getting the springer cocked whilst rocking on my somewhat overlarge belly – now there’s a New Year’s resolution: either lose weight or practice the “TX cocking full body roll”
Atb
Jim
Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Jesus’ birthday. And to others, may the Holiday Season be blessed and peaceful.
Merry Christmas and to all a good night!
Deck
Tom,
Thank you for your substantive response.
I tend to over think things. I *assumed* that the channels within the rifle would recharge the shot plenum (term?) very quickly or semi-auto rifles wouldn’t be effective. So that didn’t worry me. But I thought that CO2 systems are temp sensitive, and rapid discharge can cool the supply and lower the pressure. And I read that filling a gun’s cylinder with air too quickly can over heat the system. . . That those semi-auto rifles work was comforting, but they wouldn’t experience hundreds of consecutive shots. So I was concerned that the rate of use might also increase the system’s temp and degrade the rifle or change the results. So I put in a pause to allow some stabilization.
Thank you to all that posted comments.
May you all have a merry Christmas and a good year.
Very respectfully,
Larry
Larry,
Thanks for registering! Now everyone can see what you are doing.
Have a happy and prosperous New Year!
BB
Larry,
Rapid recharging of the plenum is generally not an issue at less than 300 psi/s (the regulator) but ignition of anything flammable can and will occur if the rate is 1000 psi/s or greater (pulling the trigger). That is why Tom always specifies a high flash point oil like silicone. If you put a petroleum based oil inside a PCP you would get dieseling / ignition when the airgun is fired. This would likely blow o-rings and possibly break something if done repeatedly.
CO2 powered airguns internal pressure is driven by the temperature of the cartridge. My Diana Chaser likes things best above 75 F (895 psi) and below 88 F (1055 psi). When CO2 temperature is greater than 88 F there is no CO2 gas or liquid, the CO2 is in a supercritical state. As the CO2 passes thru the valve you now have a mixture of liquid, gas, and supercritical CO2. With my Chaser the pellet velocity varies significantly more than at lower temperatures (less than 88 F) and gets fewer shots per cartridge.
The thing about length of shooting session: if you get tired stop for the day, if you get frustrated stop for the day.
The name of the game enjoy your time shooting.
Mike
Maligayang Pasko sa Lahat! Merry Christmas to All!
Siraniko
Newbies and reminder for all:
Mid to high velocity springer airguns reach an extremely high temperature during shooting cycle lasting a tiny fraction of time. A low flash point oil can detonate causing piston energy to be excessive and not bounce against the cushion of air resulting in permanent damage or even worse.
Deck
Welcome to the blog Larry & Dagwood from Surrey as well.
I have recently introduced my 11 year old grandson to basic 10m shooting.
This will be an interesting topic to follow,
We are starting with the basics, right now he is using a Daisy Avanti 853 the trigger isn’t great, but it works for his weight and strength level.
I use a IZH MP532 air rifle when we shoot together, that way we are both shooting single stroke pneumatics, and he can’t claim that a pcp is better.
Dagwood, I have an early sub 12ft lb Gunpower Stealth in .22 caliber.
I think on my next range outing I may drag it along and see how it shoots at 100 yards just for grins…
Merry Christmas everyone.
May every one have a Happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.
Ian
Shootski,
“The lift force vanishes in the absence of yaw and is the reason for the drift of a spinning projectile even in the absence of wind.”
I have noticed drift when shooting indoors (up to 50m) and thought it was solely due to canting errors.
My outdoor firing position is exposed to the wind and sometimes just holding the rifle itself steady is a major challenge.
One hears of the Coriolis effect upon long range (1000 yds+) centerfire shooting. Does that come into play also on rapidly decelerating diabolo pellets at 100 yds+?
Jim,
Cocking a springer from prone is always a bit of a chore. I roll onto my left side, bring my right knee forward, and cock the rifle with the buttstock braced against my thigh.
Yes, the catch on the HW35 makes it a doddle to break open.
Could your club be persuaded to dig a trench for shooting from? Three feet ought to be deep enough for a shooting bench. It would be a lot more user friendly than shooting from prone, yet wouldn’t compromise safety.
Bob, what a great suggestion, something like the garage service pit eh? Problem is the concrete floor and we are right next to the River Mole so the water table might be an issue.
I will try your ‘Ryan Roll’ ,that could make things much easier!
Many thanks to you and 45Bravo, that Gunpower looks a mean thing and not too expensive.
Atb
Jim
Jim,
If your waistline expanded as much as mine over Christmas, I would advise caution if performing the “Ryan Roll” on a hillside! 😉