Precharged pneumatic (PCP) airgun fears

by B.B. Pelletier

Don’t forget today’s Facebook event from 10 to 11 a.m., Eastern. I’ll be answering airgun questions on Facebook on this Pyramyd Air Facebook page. To see the discussion, you must have a free Facebook account. You do not have to be a recognized Friend of Pyramyd Air to ask me a question.

If you want to set up a Facebook account, register on the link provided above. Once you have an account, sign in and then click on the link above once more to go to the page. Please join me, if you’re able!

On to today’s report. On Wednesday, two important things happened. One was a reader who commented that his reluctance toward precharged pneumatics was based on fear. I can understand that, because it was my reason for staying away from them, too. I saw the movie Jaws and remembered the shark blowing up when the scuba tank was shot with a Garand. Of course, in 1995, when I started with PCPs, the Mythbusters TV show didn’t exist, so nobody had yet demonstrated on television how false and “Hollywood” that explosion really was. It served as a big caution to many like me who also saw it.

The other important thing that happened on Wednesday, happened on the range. While testing a new pellet in an AirForce Condor, the pellet, which was tight in the bore, caused the Condor’s valve to stick open and exhaust all the air in the 490 cc Condor tank in less than a second. My shoulder was shoved straight back about three inches, which is about the same distance that a Winchester .458 Magnum cartridge will push me back. There was no pain, though, because the push was a rocket-like event rather than a sharp jolt, but it served to remind me of just how much potential power is in one of those tanks.

Today, I’m going to address the issue of fear. I will tell you what I know for certain and what I have reliable reports for. I will not speculate.

Scuba-tank rockets
If something strikes the valve on a scuba tank hard enough to break it off, will the tank become a lethal rocket? Yes, it will. You don’t have to look any farther than the Mythbusters to watch such an event. This link will take you to a Mythbusters fan club website where what was shown on the TV show is discussed in print. So, if you don’t want to watch a video, this place will still give you what you need to know.

When I was in Germany in the 1970s, a large oxygen welding tank tipped over in one of our motor pools and the valve struck something hard on the way down. The valve sheared off and the tank took off like a rocket. It did a lot of damage but, fortunately, no one was hit. My experience on Wednesday with a 490cc Condor tank exhausting all its air through the valve is another reminder of what can happen when everything lets go at once.

Scuba-tank explosions
Never saw one, heard of a couple third-hand. But a hydrostatic testing station once told me that in ten years of operation they had one scuba tank fail catastrophically (explode). It failed at the threads in the neck where the valve is attached. They told me the threads are the most common place for tanks to fail. But this one failed while under test, which means it failed when it was filled with water instead of air and was enclosed inside a larger pressure vessel buried in the floor of the facility. There was a loud sound when it failed, but nothing else happened, because water is not compressible. When something fails that is full of pressurized water or hydraulic oil pressure there cannot be a dangerous explosion.

PCP reservoir explosions
Only heard stories. Nothing that I can confirm.

PCP fill-hose explosions
This I had happen to me, personally. It was with my first Daystate Huntsman. The fill hose was a rubber hose that wasn’t armored, and it exploded while I was filling the rifle. The hose was operating at the maximum allowable working pressure for which it was rated, which is cutting things thin. The hose suddenly developed a bubble the size of a walnut and exploded with a noise that sounded like a concussion grenade to me. I’m sure it was nowhere near that loud, but I was stunned for several seconds. After that happened I started paying some attention to the hoses I fill from. Now, I use either a hose that has an armored outer shell of woven steel wire, a microbore hose rated for much greater pressure or refill clamps such as the one AirForce makes that don’t have any hoses.

PCP rifle explosions
Pyramyd Air has a Korean rifle in their possession that a customer tried to operate on pure oxygen. He called Josh Ungier and asked why there were blue flames coming out of his gun when it fired. After discovering what the guy was doing, Josh advised him that he was risking his life, but the medical technician told him that the oxygen was free to him and just too convenient not to use. Here are some photos of the gun that was finally returned to Pyramyd Air for repairs.


This is what happens when a VERY HOT flame is held against aluminum for a long time! It looks like a cutting torch has been used on this gun from the inside out. This is how the Korean PCP looked after it caught fire and burned from using pure oxygen as a propellant. Yes, the stolen oxygen was cheap until this happened.


Note the discoloration of the anodizing. Forensic scientists use clues like this and the bending of the steel barrel to determine how much heat caused the damage and how long the fire lasted. An oxygen fire is a dangerous thing. This rifle was returned to Pyramyd Air as defective by a person who had been warned not to do this.

Besides this one example, I have heard a few stories of air rifles exploding, but all of them were third-hand. Nothing can be verified.

Some common sense
To complete my PCP dangers report, I thought it would be nice to reflect on some things we know for sure. For starters, many of us operate multi-pump pneumatics without fear. They operate at a pressure of 1,200-1,500 psi, according to an experiment done by W.H.B. Smith back in the 1950s. And we use CO2 guns without fear. They operate at 853 psi at 70 degrees F. But CO2 pressure rises very fast as the temperature rises. On hot days, CO2 guns will climb to over 1,100 psi. If you leave them sitting out in the sun, they’ll either lock up from too much pressure or, if you have tanks with burst disks, they can rupture and exhaust all the gas.

We’re comfortable to the point of ignorance when it comes to pressures up to 1,500 psi. Therefore, the Benjamin Discovery, which operates at just 2,000 psi, should be a PCP that’s close to your tolerance threshold.

Meditate on this for a moment. You’re in no greater danger when riding in a safe rowboat that’s floating above a 35,000 foot deep ocean trench than you are sitting in the same boat above an 18-foot hole on a bass pond. The concept of floating remains stable regardless of the depth of the water. Pneumatic safety is a lot like that. Yes, the danger is real and present, but the equipment makes it safe.

Pneumatic equipment is designed to withstand way more punishment than it will receive in normal use. It’s even engineered to be safe well beyond the operational limits specified on the equipment. But a hot-dog experimenter can set himself up for disaster very quickly, and high-pressure air can be very unforgiving.

I worked for three years in the AirForce Airguns plant. I worked around high-pressure air every day and yet in all that time the only “accident” I saw was caused by a customer who did a very stupid thing. He popped the safety burst disk on his air tank with a sharp pointed instrument. I don’t know why he did it, and they never tell you the truth when they tell you their story, but absolutely nothing bad happened. Examination of the disk showed that the metal was bent inward, not outward as a rupture would have done.

I have found that, among thoughtful adults, familiarity with potentially dangerous things doesn’t breed contempt as much as it fosters confidence. After you’ve survived a few months of PCP operations and the scuba tank in your basement/garage hasn’t blown the house off its foundations, the occupants of the household start to focus their concerns on other things. If you’re a shooter, for example, you may also live with a lot of loaded ammunition in your house. As a reloader, I store many pounds of gunpowder in the house, including several pounds of black powder that is classified as an explosive. Yet gunpowder may not be the most dangerous thing in your home.

One of the last jobs I did in the Army was investigate an apartment explosion that ruined three brick apartments in an 8-plex. The cause was a 5-lb. propane tank that was less than half full. Mud dauber wasps are attracted to the aroma of the garlic-like trace scent that’s put into odorless propane gas so leaks can be detected. They like to build nests inside the gas lines. One family thought their barbeque grill tank was empty when the flame went out in late fall, so they stored the barbeque for the winter inside an entrance room at the rear of the house. The fire chief believed that some time during the following spring the mud dauber plug in the gas line loosened, allowing propane to fill the bottom of the room with gas. Then, when the electric compressor motor of the freezer in the room kicked in early one morning, a spark ignited the heavy gas that blew the three apartments wide open.

A pound of black powder won’t do that much damage. Maybe 10 pounds will, but I don’t know. However, my point is this, we’re surrounded by dangerous things at all times. Knowledge, and not fear, is the best way to deal with them. Precharged pneumatic airguns are no more dangerous than parking an automobile full of gasoline in a garage that’s attached to your house.

145 thoughts on “Precharged pneumatic (PCP) airgun fears


  1. A great article. I guess the takeaway is "we fear things that are new and that we don't understand". I'm sure a few wars were fought based on the same.

    I have made the jump to PCP recently from springers and enjoy the change. The lack of recoil and predictable 50 yards shots are like a breath of fresh air (pun intended). I like the fact AirForce tanks have burst discs. I also like the fact that compressed air is far safer than CO2 when exposed to a hot Texas summer or left in a car.

    One thing to mention… I personally wearing safety glasses and ear protection when filling. This helps protect me from an unexpected release of air and from repeated exposure to the bleed valve escape.

    G.




  2. A word of caution when repairing PCPs is to ensure the reservoir is completely empty before disassembling. There is an article on tearing down a Daystate Huntsman (or maybe the Chinese copy) with some dramatic evidence of what can happen. There was some residual air pressure, and as when the last thread was cleared as he was removing the valve body, it shot across the room with enough force to go straight through a cheap door.


  3. B.B.
    Your story about the mud daubers reminded me of a few things.

    BBQ grills…
    When the weather gets cold the valve on the propane tank can start to leak and needs to be tightened again.(shutoff valve)

    Spider webs in the burners.

    Small propane tanks for torches, lights, and camp stoves…
    The valve on the tank leaks when the acsessory is unscrewed and removed. I had two brand new Coleman tanks that did this. Could not get them to stop leaking.
    An easy check…a few drops of water in the valve and watch for bubbles.
    If leaking, screw the torch back on , light it, and set it in the back yard to burn empty. It will get very cold and the flame will go out after a while. It must be allowed to warm up again before it can be relighted. Repeat until it really is empty.

    twotalon


  4. Another nice report! Here's another thought:
    Under the right conditions each gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 10 sticks of dynamite. Yet we think little of straping our children in the back seat over a 20 gallon tank of the stuff.
    Always look forward to your interesting stories.
    Greg


  5. twotalon,

    Thanks for the tip about the BBQ grills. Cold is something we never think about in Miami. But it got down to the mid 40's last night, and exceptionally, down to 32°F a couple of weeks ago. Many many flowering plants and bushes killed. I don't grill often, and the last time I did it was 92 in the shade. As soon as I read your post I ran outside and checked the valve. It was a trifle looser than I expected but still closed (I think.) Thanks again for the great tip, and to you, B.B., for the inspiration.

    -AlanL


  6. B.B.,

    Incidentally, the hyperlink to your most current blog has been missing from the title in the blue banner, 'Air guns – Pyramyd Air Report' for the last couple of posts. This link is extremely useful when exploring older posts and wanting to quickly come back to the newest.

    -AlanL



  7. Your blog today could not have come at a better time. I just ordered my first PCP, the Benjamin Discovery,the other day from Pyramyd Air and am expecting it Monday. I have heard PCPs called "2000 psi bombs" and I have to admit that I did have some concerns. Thanks for belaying my fears, and as always, keep up the great blog!


  8. B.B.,

    Several years ago, we were running late for soccer practice and my daughter's soccer ball was a little low on pressure. I grabbed a bike pump, glanced quickly at the fill pressure, and went to town. I obviously wasn't paying attention, as I thought I saw 10bar on the ball and I didn't translate that to PSI. For the record, a soccer ball will not hold anywhere near 10bar (145psi). It's easy to miss important details when you're in a rush. While I was very impressed by the result, my daughter was not. Several years later, she still won't let me near her (replacement) soccer ball with a pump.

    Jay


  9. Good series of articles this week. Wish I could participate in the interactive event this morning on facebook with B.B.

    This seems to have been pcp week.

    Almost 100 comments yesterday! I have to smile when the springer vs. pcp debate comes out of its' dormancy. Really liked the comments from Jane Hansen and Volvo.

    I remember my hand wringing about entering the pcp world. My personal hesitation wasn't a fear of the equipment but the amount of equipment and cost. Glad I got over that. Buy a tank, a chrony and A LOT of pellets.

    GenghisJan,

    What wonderful perspectives on FT. You seem to be on the verge of getting hooked.

    Anthony,

    "….nervous about buying an S410 sidelever in January…"

    Why? This has to be the best if not among a short list of the best pcp out of the box for the price point.

    The S410 sidelever was my first pcp and will always have a special place in my heart and mind. After many since it's still the platform that I measure all others by. B.B. dislikes the fill adaptor but I've never minded it. The quick fill on other guns is less fiddley but big deal.

    Wayne gave you encouragement to take your S410 to an FT event. He also suggested that you "tape" your power adjuster in order to be legal in the class you choose to shoot (19fpe or 12 fpe). I think what Wayne meant to say is "LOCK" your power adjuster. Not just to be legal in your shooting class but to be consistent in power/accuracy. If you don't already know, on the S410's there is a very small allen screw in the bottom of your action that can be screwed inwards and temporarily lock your power wheel at the setting you chose. You need to take your stock off to access this allen screw.

    I've also owned FWB 124's and can say first hand that you are a man of obvious impeccable taste in airguns. Paul Watts tunes made my guns among my favorite springers to shoot especially after his trigger work.

    kevin




  10. B.B.,

    How often do we need to hydro test the AF tanks?

    *I purchased a new Talon SS in Dec. 2009. Tank has a March 2008 stamped on it.

    Thanks,

    Jeff in Dallas


  11. blowgunner62

    I am guessing you ordered the Discovery with the pump. If so, here is a tip for you.

    After you have pumped up your Disco to pressure, when you open the bleed valve to release the pressure in the pump and purge moisture, it will blow a fine mist of lubricant downward, making a little oily stain on your carpet. Put some newspaper underneath to prevent this.

    Crosman says this is normal and will disapate over time. After a couple dozen fills, my pump is still venting some oil.


  12. Remember to join Tom on Facebook this morning @ 10 am Eastern. When that event is over, he'll be back here to answer any unanswered blog questions.

    Edith


  13. BB,
    You're probably not checking this blog now but if you are, I can't figure out how to pose a question to you on Facebook. I'm not getting the "wall" box that I'm used to for entering stuff.
    -Chuck


  14. Morning B.B.,

    Great topic saftey and high pressure gas. HPA and CO2 with some knowledge and care are not to be feared, but are to be respected.

    I was a SCUBA diver in the late 50's and one of the guys tried doing some "4 wheeling" in his MGB. The insuing misadvernture knocked the valve off his tank which he never found. Kevin, back then the tank and regulator cost alittle over $100.00.


  15. I beleive PA may have some incorrect pricing information on the Walther lever-action CO2 rifles on the website.

    The rifle alone: $420.50

    W.F. Special Edition: $329.99

    The rifle/scope combo: $375.00

    I would think that both the S.E. and the scope combo would cost more than the standard rifle.



  16. Kevin,

    Thanks for that info on locking the power adjuster.. I didn't know you could do that!

    I had heard of guys being told to tape over it… Could be, you lock it and tape over it to show the match director and other contestants, you're not fiddling with it during the contest.

    It's a dangerous world.. some of us live over earth faults that can crumble our homes in a minute. We drive over bridges that would crumble in a quake too.

    How about that huge tank full of gas at the filing station or the one that fills the filling station on the truck going up an down the roadways.. What if someone lights a cigar while I'm filling my car, and that huge truck of gas is filling the service station tanks?

    Or a chemical factory explodes and you town is wiped out.

    Or my favorite.. fear of the "mushroom" cloud.. don't worry kids.. just "duck under your desk"

    Wacky Wayne


  17. Chuck and anyone else who tried to ask questions on Facebook,

    I had thought that a person didn't have to be a Friend of Pyramyd Air to ask a question, but that turned out to not be the case. I don't know how many people were frustrated by that, but I'm going to do another Facebook event like the one today to make up for it.

    The next event will be conducted at 8 p.m. Eastern, to see whether that is a better time for working people.

    B.B.



  18. B.B.
    The Facebook thing this morning was fun once I figured it out. I did have become a friend of Pyramydair to be able to chat.
    Your adding some additional instructions for next time will be helpful for those of us over 30…way over 30, LOL. It'll keep us young.
    Lloyd




  19. B.B.

    See, another thing I didn't learn in school, since I wasn't paying attention!

    Then I know, I would have felt safe and those horrible dreams would have gone away… darn, shouldn't have missed that point!

    Wacky Wayne


  20. B.B.,
    Facebook and Twitter and those viral communications are certainly the way to reach younger folks. How else would you walk into an open manhole? LOL. I see that Gamo's page is linked to Pyramyd's facebook page. Maybe more of the other manufacturer's will follow suit and get the free advertising.
    Lloyd


  21. I missed the Facebook event….sorry. Two reasons: 1. I don't care for Facebook and exposing for all and 2. Had unexpected Eye surgery and everything foggy…..usually only the brain is foggy. Interesting Blog about PCB. I have used torches and even an old Prestolite tank and even carbide pellets. Lucky I guess. Found that teflon tape works wonders at helping insure a seal. I know nothing about the PCB equipment as this stuff is new to me. I did just get the Crosman Custom pistol that one of you recommended though. Based on the Model 2300, with the 10.1 inch Match Barrel, Williams Sights, short breech, Triger Shoe and Zebrawood Grips. Got to admit, it is pretty. I cleaned it and oiled the O ring and the CO2 Cartridge pierce …..and made sure it would go pop. Just oput a couple drops of silicon on the .177 pellets and slowly rolled them to get a uniform coat, so as soon as the eyes clear to a more manageable fog, will try it out. I have no clue what I am doing, so this should be a good experience for me. Thanks to all who advised me on the blog. I did not get a repeater, but this will suffice I hope to start getting some abilities back.

    Oh, in a previous Blog, someone mentioned Gibbs rifle works and their preparing Springfield 1903 A4 "restorations". I just read an article in SG News about the rifle. Looks like they are trying to do a good job. I have some originals that I still do shoot, but they are equipped with the Alaskan, the M084, and a Weaver. Actually not bad scopes, considering their age. Not at all like a Warner and Swasey "Musket Scope" On one of the 1903 A1 versions…..


  22. Blowgunner62,

    Congrats on the disco, I have one in .177 caliber and love it.

    I'm assuming from your handle you have a .625 claiber blowgun? Couple questions, 1) do you hunt with it, and 2) what do you use for darts?

    Thanks

    Aaron in MI


  23. Joe 3006
    Good luck with your eyes. I know what the fog is like…

    WV..holoxin..Sounds like something that brings the dead back to life and makes them eat brains.

    twotalon


  24. B.B.

    Ah ha. Springers cannot explode. I guess you could say that I missed the point of today's post…. :-)

    Jane has a good point that the desire to eke out the last bit of accuracy in a pcp can be an incentive. With springers one can get too comfortable with throwing a shot now and then.

    The real problem for me with pcps is figuring out a rationale for shooting one at 5 yards when my springers do this very well. If anyone has an insight let me know. I have tried…

    Interesting about rimfire wear. My question was intended for centerfires. I thought rimfires were in the same category as airguns. The barrels either do not wear out or they do not for a quarter million shots at least.

    BG_Farmer, you're right about survival springers if one relaxes my restriction about fixing springs. One should stock up. And I have no idea how difficult it is to make a custom spring.

    Joe Springfield, I wrote about the Gibbs Springfield. If I were to get a 1903, it would probably be from them. However, Chuck Hawks says that the 1903 is essentially a Mauser which was made worse by modifications in a futile attempt to avoid patent infringement. I would probably get a Mauser instead if I got anything.

    30-06 lovers. Any response to the claim that the .308 is more accurate? The wisdom is that the .308 case is smaller and packs the powder more tightly. Well, one might wonder, why couldn't you pack the 30-06 case with as much powder as necessary? But I guess the extra velocity would somehow throw off the necessary combination of ballistic coefficient, bullet weight, spin and whatever else goes into accuracy.

    Matt61



  25. B.B.,

    Sorry to be off-topic (again!) and back to springers:

    Kevin,

    I finally got around to looking at Frank's gunroom. That is AMAZING! When asked which of all those guns he shoots the most, he replied, "Easy,that's my old and trusty… Weihrauch HW85K in .177 (with VENOM spring)!!!!!"

    I now have a no doubt controversial and politically incorrect question for you and everybody: Is a Weihrauch the 'best' spring piston rifle out there for under $1,000? I do not necessarily mean for supreme competition accuracy on Wacky Wayne's range but for overall QUALITY, ACCURACY and DURABILITY?

    -AlanL



  26. AlanL

    I was just shooting my Weihrauch HW77K last night and musing about the quality of the product overall, the fit and finish and the nearly perfect Rekord 2-stage adjustable trigger.

    After owning many brands of airguns, I would have to give very, very high praise to Weihrauch as one of the very best.

    Practically speaking, my HW77K is supremely accurate in the hands of a supremely capable shooter (not me)! Still, I have taken it apart for cleaning and lube and put it back together with nearly no adjustment of the scope settings required (other than some slight elevation adjust due to cleaning and lube) Likewise, I have left stock screws a little too loose and it still shoots as before! All this is anecdotal except… it speaks to the very precise manufacturing and quality of materials used by Weihrauch in their guns.

    Last, and maybe not that important, Herr Weihrauch (in Germany) and I have emailed each other several times on topics of interest. I think this shows that he takes great pride in his products and enjoys conversing directly with his customers!

    On any given day, Weihrauch would be my choice for higher-end springer rifles.

    Brian in Idaho


  27. B.B.,

    I tried to "talk" to you this morning, but didn't see a reply until I checked by e-mail. However, I knew nothing about face book when I started this morning and feel like I know less than that now. Kids weren't here to give me a lesson.

    A question about hydro tests for AirForce tanks–with the burst disk are they necessary and if so does AirForce do them?

    Thanks,
    Mr B.


  28. If anyone is wondering what to do with all their old 2009 PA calander magnets here is a tip.

    I tore the sticker off and cut them into pellet tin sized circles and use them as removable labels on empty screw-top tins from Crosman and Gamo.

    Then all my JSB, H&N, and RWS pellets got dumped into individually labeled screw top tins and I will never again have to relive the horror of picking up 500 pellets from the carpet, lawn or dirt. Why do the Europeans (other than Gamo) use such cheap tins? Gravity must work differently over there.

    Also I can put my CPs from the box in there. Thank you Crosman for your screw top pellet tins.


  29. Mr. B.,

    Before today, we had 2 sessions & some instructional emails from the Pyramyd Air employee who runs their socnets. When we were online for today's event, I was typing answers as Tom dictated. The Pyramyd Air employee was on speaker phone with us the entire time!

    Next time, it'll be a piece of cake, and we probably won't need someone to hold our hands…at least not the whole time :-)

    Edith


  30. Fred PRoNJ: Thanks a lot for the reassurances on the TKO trigger installation. I think I'm going to go for it!

    Wayne: I'll grant you your "newbie" status if you insist, but I insist that you are at the very least a "sage newbie." How very Socratic of you to say otherwise! I really hope to come check out your club and one of your FT matches someday. Too bad I'm way over here on the opposite coast. Speaking of cross-country FT hikes, are you considering shooting at this year's nationals here in Maryland?

    Kevin & Wayne: I'm not sure I've heard such unequivocal praise for an airgun as yours on the AAs410 (except maybe for that AA springer whose name I don't even need to mention). I didn't realize that you could get such a huge power range from a power-adjustable rifle. Am I hearing you correctly that you can dial the s410 down to 12 FPE, up to 19, and on beyond 30??? Amazing! I don't think I'm ready for a $1k airgun (yet!), but I don't imagine I'd have much buyer's remorse if I someday picked up one of those.

    All: On PCP/HPA safety, Jim Chapman's review of the Discovery rifle contains some reassuring words on the safety margins that Crosman built into the gun:

    "Though the recommended fill pressure is 2000 psi, the tube and valve assemblies have been hydrostatic tested to 11000 psi (the tube alone to 15000 psi)."

    I wonder if that sort of comfortable over-engineering is commonplace in PCPs. Hopefully so…

    Oh, and on the hand pump v. tank issue, check out this Yellow post where 156 lb., 72 year-old Harry aka Yrrah describes using a hand pump as his primary method for getting up to 250 bar. He also says he hasn't encountered any corrosion issues with the hand pump.

    -Jan


  31. Really what is air?

    On a job site you use air and gas to cut things. In this case air =Oxygen and gas=propane or acetylene. If we are going into a confined space we use a positive pressure mask and are hooked to breathing air, normal compressed air that has been filtered for contaminants and dirt.

    My wife works in a hospital and works with several gasses. All of them are "breathng air" of some sort or are mixed with compressed air to obtain a particular mix of air and some additional percent of oxygen. She laughed at me for talking about "breathing air."

    Breathing straight oxygen for extended periods can also be hazardous to your health, so oxygen can't be "air."

    When we dive we use air. We may get additioanl training and use Nitrox which is enriched with oxygen so that we can stay down a bit longer with less chance of decompression sickness. If we care to dive deeper than normal recreatinal limits we can get a bit more training and use mixed gasses and learn to use a formula for % of Oxygen + % of nitrogen + % of helium to dive safely to several hundred feet or beyond.

    The terminology differs some but it is all the same thing inasmuch as it is similar to the basic stuff we breathe all of our lives. And then it is all way different too.

    Some of us just need to understand that all air is not created equal and we need to use the proper "air" for each application.

    jim




  32. BB,
    I had never considered these PCP concerns, just the cost, hassle and learning curve. As for other things in our houses that are just as dangerous — consider the heating and AC, which has high operating pressure gasses — the more modern, the higher the pressure.

    Gasoline is indeed a dangerous friend; I doubt it would be legal today except for our dependence on it.


  33. B.B.,
    I sure will! I'm planning to make a video review to post on the Discovery page. Maybe I could do a guest blog after having had it for a few months?

    I read your blog every day, but I don't comment often 'cause most of the time what I was going to say has already been said by the time I get to the blog!


  34. Matt,
    Thanks for the concession on springers — it is a keystone in my Mad Max plans:).

    I think the usual claim for superiority of .308 is that it can use exact amount of advanced powder for desired ballistics w/o needing fluff or leaving space, which both affect the pressure curve. My feeling is that those problems are pretty minor, given technology, but when the military switched over to .308, so, of course, did much of the powder technology development (which had made the .308 viable in the first place). Just my view.

    On the issue of high-powered barrels, 1500 rnds. is a significant mile marker, but some loads and barrels are claimed to be good for 3K at optimal accuracy. The thing to keep in mind is that 1/8" in group size might be deadly in those circles. You and I might not notice a difference until 5K or more, and a barrel used for hunting might last longer (although it would most likely never get that many rounds through it). Of course, among top professional shooters, the barrel is most likely considered a consumable, and changed regularly whether it needs it or not.



  35. BG_Farmer,

    Interesting about the advanced powder. It reminds me that attention and resources can go a long way toward making a particular design stand out, whether of a gun or cartridge.

    Thanks for the tip on the TRR. I had not heard of it. It is very much my style. However, the Savage 10FP is already a tactical rifle, so I can't see getting an imitation of what I already have. The Ruger 10/22 is out since the Crosman 1077 is so good. No, when I get a .22 rimfire rifle, it will be something truly mind-blowing.

    I've been meaning to mention the whole tactical rimfire movement which seems to be gaining traction. From all I can see, it is entirely driven by the desire to save money. Those folks need to discover airguns.

    On the subject of Mad Max, you may recall the scene in the Road Warrior where Max is bluffing people with an empty shotgun. Better a loaded springer than an empty shotgun. In the same movie, the crazy guy on the motorcycle with the red Mohawk uses some sort of spring-loaded dart gun mounted on his wrists. That would seem to prove the viability of springs in the post-apocalyptic world. Only the likes of the Lord Humungous will get access to firearms….

    As another image of the apocalypse one can look at post-earthquake Haiti. Those bands of young men with machetes would scare the daylights out of anyone.

    Matt61


  36. With regards to Weihrauch – yes, they are made very well. But, realistically speaking, I might suggest that Diana is comparable when it comes to durability and accuracy. No, they are not made with the same degree of craftmanship and engineering. But in terms of performance and how long they'll last, does anyone think that Weihrauch really has much of an advantage?


  37. GenghisJan,

    I, for some unknown reason, thought that you had installed TKO's trigger mod in your Discovery.

    Easy installation. I have only good things to say about it.


  38. Mr. B.,

    The AirForce burst disks are required by U.S. law. Not that anyone would know to check at this time, but AirForce wanted to do it the responsible way from the start. Any pressure vessel over 2 inches in outer diameter is required to have a burst disk, as I understand it.

    The burst disks are very specific round disks that are purchased by specifying the application. All the engineering that surrounds them is supplied by the disk manufacturer. One hundred of them will fit inside a thimble with lots of room left over.

    I used to install the disks in the air tanks. The screw that heds them had to be torqued according to specifications. I believe 9 inch-pounds was the spec, and we had a very expensive torque wrench to do that job.

    When you fill the tank the first time the disks bulge outward in a slight dome, which is part of their specification. They are held in a small copper crusher carrier that is sandwiched between two steel parts.

    Yes, the burst disk is a very special deal.


  39. AlanL,

    Re: "Is a Weihrauch the 'best' spring piston rifle out there for under $1,000?"

    You've already received some answers/opinions and they're all correct since this, in my view, is about taste, personal fit and expectations in a gun.

    Weihrauch, Diana, Walther, etc. all have a long lineage in their spring guns that can be traced back to Olympic 10 meter guns.

    You should know that Frank has shared dribs and drabs about his beloved HW 85K (also sold as a Beeman R-10). There is some sentiment in his gun and the "venom spring in it" refers to the "works" by the custom shop (Ivan Hancock?). Franks HW 85K is unique. This is not a gun you will find.

    Read lots, shoot lots and form your own opinions.

    For what it's worth two of the guns I've purchased in the last 6 months were Weihrauch's (one badged a beeman) and each cost over $1,000.00. I like many HW guns and many that are re-badged as beemans.

    kevin


  40. blowgunner62,

    Well, I like the comment that your questions are answered before you can ask them.

    YES to your guest blog. As a new owner you carry a lot of weight around here. As a guy who is also new to PCPs you carry a lot more weight.

    One guest blog from you is worth 10 of anything I could do.

    B.B.


  41. Mr B.,

    A tank and a regulator for $100.00?!!

    My wife was certified in the early 1970's. I didn't get certified until the mid 1980's.

    I upgraded my equipment about 10 years ago to an expedition vest, computerized console, new top of the line scuba pro regulator, etc. and had to take out a second mortgage on the house to pay for it.

    We went diving every day for two weeks in the cayman islands on our honeymoon. I really like the ocean. Colorado would be perfect if it had an ocean.

    kevin

    kevin


  42. Hi, folks. Regarding .30-06 v. .308, if I were ever to allocate the disposable income for a Garand from my Uncle Clint, which caliber to chose??? I suppose if I were to get a Garand, it would be half for sentimental/historic value. Given that, is .30-06 the more historically authentic caliber? Sorry if this is a naive question, and sorry that it is pretty OT for an airgun blog!

    Matt, RE "better a loaded springer than an empty shotgun": I go camping every chance I get to a pretty danged remote part of West Virginia (think Deliverance). Last summer, I was at the camp, plinking away with my Mostly Harmless Disco. At about the same time, a couple of guys were lost on the rough dirt road near the camp, and their old pickup broke down just a few hundred yards from us. They walked to our camp hoping to get a ride and some help with their truck, and they literally walked out of the woods with their hands in the air! After we exchanged pleasantries and they realized we weren't banjo-boys with an eye for Ned Beatty types, they confided that the little Disco looked downright menacing from the perimeter of our camp. I never quite thought of the Disco in that way. Of course, they eventually took a few shots with the Disco before we gave them a ride back to civilization.

    South Park always nails it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI8AEUYF2aE

    -Jan


  43. GenghisJan,

    On high setting my aa s410 in .22 caliber is doing 850-900 fps with the jsb 18.1 gr pellets. That's around 31 foot pounds. I only shot it on the lowest setting once since someone on this blog asked what it was doing. Just don't remember and not sure I kept those notes. I think 12 foot pounds would be around 550 fps with the 18 gr? I think it shoots that slow on the low setting but I honestly don't remember.

    You probably don't care about my .22 caliber numbers anyway since you're going to use a .177 caliber for FT.

    kevin


  44. Kevin, one can no longer assume that Walther represents very high quality in spring guns, as recent years have seen both Turkish and Chinese models sold under that name. Certainly the Talon, Falcon Hunter, and Force 1000 are not without their strong points, but those models do not come up to the level of Weihrauch or even Diana.


  45. Mr B,
    You probably had one of those Mike Nelson like Voit or Nemrod double hose regulators, right? And a J-valve tank? And black, very heavy Scubapro fins? You didn't wear a BC, you wore an inflatable horse collar (if that). Regulators were single stage only and if you swam upside down you couldn't breath. Ah, those were the days! Wet suits were for sissies or bad guys. Dive knives were for slashing the bad guys' double hose regulators or prying that giant clam off your foot.

    Here you go you nostalgia nuts:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_XY-C9M1Cw

    -Chuck


  46. Vince,

    You are absolutely correct about Walther.

    My brain was stuck in the vintage era of Franks HW 85K when I was responding to AlanL. I'm personally stuck there as well.

    I'm not even a fan of many current beeman imports from weihrauch. The stocks don't appeal, fiber optic sights or no sights, etc. Compression tubes being out of round is becoming very common in these newer guns as well (per PW, Although I trust him I don't know this first hand) etc. I understand about cutting corners to reach a price point in the market I just don't have to like it.

    kevin


  47. To Matt61 Re: Springfield 03…. The Mauser was there first and our Government actually paid Mauser a license fee in developing the springfield. If you look at the bolt you will see the lugs are "more" on the Mauser. The striker on the springfield is flared and the Mauser is cut off. Supposedly that was to divert gases away from the eye in the event of a blown primer….Don't know how true it is. The Mauser 8MM shoots a bigger bullet and ballistically they are very similar. Some of the best prepared Mausers I've seen across the counter are from Mitchell's in California. If you get a select grade, they are darned near "new". They are in the process of raising their prices so you might want to see what today's deal is. The Ruskies told a ton of them to the US and Mitchells seem to have cornered the market. They were also giving accessories with the purchase. You also mentioned about packing the cases of the '06 to get more performance. I've done a lot of reloading over the years and with some powders you can "pack" the case. Generally speaking though if you do, you are asking for the loss of an eye or two, a hand, a face and maybe even injury. The .308 is a different animal. It shoots similar to the ;06, uses the same bullet, but allows more rounds in a magazine. It packes a wallop too, but you can shoot heavier bullets in the 06 and shoot anything from groundhogs to Moose and feel reasonably confident in a expedient result. Keep in mind the .300 Win Mag will also shoot the same bullet….so it is not a matter of adding more or less powder, it is the type of powder and the burn rate of that powder and the velocity you are trying to obtain. all these are factors in whether or not you survive a target shooting session or a hunting trip. Equate it to the examples just shown in using oxygen in the PCB versus the recommended filling. And to the fella who mentioned a gallon of gasoline to dynamite sticks….keep in mind when you are on the road…..hitting a tank truck full of gasoline is not pleasant. Hitting one that is full of fumes from the vapor recovery systems is a disaster. I spent 35 years working in the Petro industry and watched a torch lit under a pool of gasoline. Nothing happened. I saw a half of teaspoon of gasoline vaporized and ignited by a static spark and it blew a building down. It is not a matter of mor or less powder in that case, but how the powder is used.

    Hey, we are getting our first snow in 4 years here…..and I gave away my snow blower before relocating here…..One nice thing though it is not much and gives me a reason to catch up.


  48. About a week ago I had my tank topped off in Huntsville.When I got home,I topped off my Condor tank and fit it on the rifle.Recently,I got an 18" barrel in .177,and had it on the Condor.I had only used the Talon tank with this barrel so far…Here is where it gets interesting!I failed to take notice of the power wheel setting and had it up pretty high to test the effect with an Airhog moderator.I was in my room testing the pellet trap I made from 16lbs. of duct seal in a heavy large restarant skillet backed with 3/8 steel plate.I loaded a heavy EuJin pellet,took the safety off,took aim and touched off the shot…It was like a flashbang grenade without the light!!!My moderator blew across the room.My ears rang for two minuites.2800 psi dumped through the barrel,the moderator base grub screw held the base in the frame…the rest of it slammed into the target…it all went back together ok .The moral of the story is ALWAYS check the power wheel setting when changing to the Condor tank!! Frank B


  49. Frank B,

    That sounded like it was a real exciting shot. Glad that no permanent damage was done. I'm a little confused as to the cause of it all. Did you get a tank dump or was it a single shot that caused it?

    Mr B.


  50. Condor tank dump,

    The Condor is SO powerful that it operates on the ragged edge of possibility in .177 caliber. In the past all Condor tanks were the same, but you will notice there are .177 tanks and .22 tanks available today. That's because the .177 valve return spring tension needs to be set higher for 100 percent reliability.

    This only kicks in when there is extreme pellet resistance in the bore. Two things can cause this. One is a pellet that is not seated deep in the barrel. If part of the skirt can be bent over the breech, it will hold the pellet in place while holding the valve open until all the air is exhausted. Shooters who have this happen will find a crushed pellet in their breech when it is over.

    The other way is to use a very heavy, tight-fitting pellet like I used and like Frank used, and to have the power wheel turned all the way up. That pellet will usually leave the barrel as it should.

    Mind you, the newer caliber-specific valves are not prone to this. But the older "one size fits all" valves are.

    B.B.


  51. GenghisJan ,

    I would like to weigh in on your .308 vs .30-06 discussion, because you mentioned getting a Garand. I think most readers know that I love the Garand and have owned several over the years.

    But if I were in your shoes, I would get an M1A in .308, instead of a Garand. The M1A is a civilian copy of the M14 pattern, and as such I think it is more reliable than the Garand design that is 20 years older. One super feature of the M1A is the fact that it accepts detachable magazines instead of enbloc clip that, while they work, are not the most ideal way of supplying ammunition to a semiautomatic rifle.

    Garand owners love their rifles partly because of their great history. At the time they were new, they represented the best semiautomatic design in the world. They have a deserved reputation for ruggedness and reliability under adverse conditions. However, the M14 is just as reliable and just as wonderful to shoot.

    I own a Garand because it was the rifle I cut my teeth on when I entered the Army through the ROTC program in the 1960s. But if I didn't have that tie, I would go for the newer .308-caliber M14, which can be owned legally as the M1A.

    An M14 was designed for select fire. By installing the right parts, all M14s are convertible to select-fire, which means either semiauto or full-auto can be selected by flipping a switch. The M14 was never good at full-auto because it is too light for the recoil. The idea was to have a main battle rifle that could also replace the BAR, but as I said, the M14 wasn't able to fill that role. But as a main battle rifle, it is still wonderful even today.

    I especially like the flip-up buttplate that sits on top of the shoulder when you fire. It holds the rifle in the ideal position for accurate fire in all shooting positions. I qualified expert with an M14 before being exposed to the dreadfully inaccurate M16 of the 1965-1968 era. That experience colored my opinion if the M16 family of guns forever.

    Of course this is all just my personal opinion.

    B.B.


  52. Mr B.: If you thought I had already installed the TKO trigger, I bet it's because you and others here have probably already heartily recommended it to me, and probably already allayed my fears about how complicated the install might be. Time flies sometimes, eh? Probably the only reason I'm fantasizing about Disco mods right now is that life feels simpler and slower-moving when all you do for a week is eat, sleep, and shovel snow! I haven't been to the office in days!

    Kevin: Wow! The aa s410's range of adjustment is fantastic! Is that level of flexibility common in the higher-end PCPs? If I were to take the plunge on such a swanky beast, I actually think I would opt for .22. With a collection as small as mine, I like to leave my varmint options open, and am hesitant to dedicate a .177 rig just for FT purposes. I think one of the main reasons FT folks prefer .177 is to have a round that's more likely to pass cleanly through some of the more absurdly small killzones. I figure this is no big deal for me because 1) I'm shooting more for fun than for score, and 2) The extra four-odd hundredths of an inch margin .177 would get me couldn't possibly be a major factor given my skill level. I'm sure I could gain many times that margin by refining my caveman shooting technique, and by holding off on that last cup of coffee the morning of the match!

    After all, FT is supposed to be some kind of hunting analog, eh? May as well shoot the matches something like you hunt. I'm sure as heck not going to hold off on that last cup of coffee when I'm in the woods! I think one of the greatest things about camping is the smell of campfire, bacon, and coffee wafting through the trees. Mmmmm…..

    B.B.: thanks for the Garand/M1A/M14 wisdom. Hmm. Everything you say about the M1A makes sense, except that the M1A doesn't go "ping!" And I wouldn't mind having that historic connection with the WWII battle rifle. You know, you said something the other day, advising somebody about TX200 v. Marauder, that frighteningly resonated with me. Maybe it applies in this case:

    "Since you have been bitten by the bug here is one thing I can tell you. Eventually you will own both rifles.

    "So the question isn't which one should you buy. It's really which one should you buy FIRST."

    Gulp,
    Jan


  53. B.B.,

    I'm about to ask you a question so green it'll make you blush on my behalf. But I have no choice. I'm getting flyers all over the place with the Leapers 3-12x44AO on the UTG base on my Diana 54. Everything is tight, I'm SURE. 25 yards is my maximum available range, and I keep taking chunks of concrete out of the wall above my silent trap. My wife is less than pleased.

    Here's the howler: The adjustment rings on the scope say Up with a counterclockwise arrow and Down with a clockwise arrow. Likewise the windage knob says Left/Right with clockwise/ccw arrows. Does this mean I need to turn the knob clockwise to make my shots go DOWN, or does it mean turn counterclockwise because my shots are GOING up? The logical interpretation is the former, but the Leapers user manual is completely silent about this. I'm still so erratic that I'm doubting what I seem to see happening. With 1/8"/click @100 yards it takes so many clicks to see any meaningful effect at 25 yards that I'm now unsure of myself.

    Also, the windage knob seems to be slipping. When I turn it I feel the knob slipping over the gears with a plasticky feel but hear no clicks. (Of course the locking ring is unlocked.) Only when I press inward on the knob while turning do I hear the tiny clicks. This doesn't seem normal but I wanted to ask your advice first before I attack the zero resetting screw with my allen wrench…

    Thanks,

    -AlanL


  54. Jan,

    You've got your priority right.. FT is for fun!

    And, don't underestimate the hunting power of .177. sure it's not the knock down power of .22 cal, but it works on starlings and squirrels.. a 10.6 or 16gr .177 can do the job if well placed..
    And the Air Arms s410 can place it well.

    The power adjuster on the .177 lets you go down to 400fps and up to 1,100fps!

    I bet your style and skill level will grow fast, and getting into that small hole will become a higher priority than you think!

    I don't care that much (sure) about winning, but I do want to do my best. And just clipping the edge of the kill zone and not getting the point is very frustrating!

    I think you can start FT with the .22 cal disco, but if you get a nice gun like the AAs410, I would strongly consider .177 cal. Heck, the disco is all you need to hunt with… give them critters a chance:-)

    Oh, I do plan on going to the nationals again this year.. Hope to see a lot of you folks there!

    Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range


  55. AlanL

    If your POI is below your target, you need to turn the elevation DOWN. This will point the scope downward toward where your pellet is impacting.

    As a brand new rifle breaks in, it can sometimes shift its POI around until it settles down. This is the reason I suggested to break the rifle in with open sites. Tweaking the turrets around chasing the pellet gets old fast. And frustrating. If you ordered the scope with the rifle, it is true you need to find out if it is working correctly before your month guarantee expires. But it's hard to know if its working correctly if your rifle is scattering pellets.

    If you are any good with open sights, take the scope off and try to shoot some tight groups. If you can, the scope or mounts are likely the problem.

    I think your scope is probably fine. Check your stock screws AGAIN and be absolutely certain that you have your cheek weld right. It sounds like a paralax issue to me.

    Tighten the hex screw on your windage knob just a little, you should feel/hear much more positive click adjustments.


  56. Slinging Lead,

    I took your earlier advice very much to heart, believe me. I shot at least 50 pellets (not enough, I know) with open sights first. Of course, I didn't have anything to rest the rifle on then, so I felt like I was doing a Charlie Atlas impersonation with every shot. But I remembered your advice to also check out the scope soon in case there were problems, so I mounted it sooner than later. If I'm not mistaken, there are only TWO stock screws on the underside of the 54, right? I'll try snugging the windage knob a little. Later this weekend, as promised, I will post some pics of my gun and stands, etc. Thanks for the answer on the scope adjustment.

    -AlanL


  57. AlanL
    Slinging lead told you wrong…
    The knob markings tell you which way to go for moving the POI.

    If you want to go up and right an inch, you adjust the elevation knob UP, and the windage knob RIGHT.

    twotalon


  58. CJr,

    Thanks for the link. No wonder cave diving is considered so dangerous–bad example in the clip.

    The regulator was a single hose model and the tank had a harness made out of one inch canvis strips. Yes, the tank had a J valve. The mask and fins were Voits. I cann't remember the manufactor of the tank or regulator. Didn't have a wet suit–not enough money to buy one.

    Kevin,

    I was the one that asked you for some numbers on shooting your s410 on low power.

    Mr B.



  59. AlanL,

    Did you check out BB's articles on scopes? (There's also a video.)Here's the link to the last one, where he shows how to sight-in a scope.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/scopes-part3/

    I'd recommend taking the scope off and putting a few tins of pellets through it. Then focus on the scope (pun intended).

    The directions on the knobs move the POI ("point of impact"), so that you keep the same POA ("point of aim" – not to me confused with MOA, which is "minute of angle"). There must be a lot of ex-military types in airgunning, as we sure love our acronyms. Some manuals do a better job than others explaining how to adjust things. I had one that was actually backwards explaining how to adjust the windage on a fixed sight. Really frustrating.

    BB & Jan,

    The M14 talk brings back memories. I marched around with one for three years. Had to keep it shiny, but never got to fire it. I may have to borrow one some day and send some lead down range.


  60. Kevin,

    So you actually own a Fwb 124 and a s410?! I salute you, and your fine taste! ;)

    "….nervous about buying an S410 sidelever in January…"

    I hesitated because it is my first PCP, although I've had another experiences with Discos and some other few. But all reluctances vanished when I saw the walnut stock with rosewood Schnabel forend. I have seen many rifles in my life, but it is one of the most beautiful pieces of wood I've ever seen. It has a dark tone, and the overall quality of the gun still impresses me.

    The fact is that over here many compare the s410 against other smaller-priced guns, like the Marauder. I have shot it, and liked it a lot. But if I am to be true, I'm not thinking about switching guns. It's just too beautiful.

    And beauty is more than skin deep. Last week I hit a marble that I had put in a tree 44 meters away. With only one shot!! Now I know I did the right thing.

    I just need a better scope. I have a 3-9x Leapers and does it fine, but now I feel I need something more powerful. What do you use on your AA? Next week I'll be at San Diego on a congress, I hope to find a good one…

    Anthony


  61. Wayne,

    I hope to do some FT in the future. Unfortunately, my s410 is .22, so I'll need annother gun for it. Perhaps, if some day HFT is practiced over here, I'll be there.

    Anyway, knowing the fact that you own a s410 is enough recommendation for me.

    I have a friend that spent a lot of time exploring his Disco, and now is almost an authority tuning those guns. He even put a power regulator dial on his, and made a delightful trigger. Maybe some day…

    Thank you!

    Anthony


  62. Slinging Lead, TwoTalon and Randy-in-VA,

    Thanks. I did see B.B.'s three part scope instructions several times, and the video too. I'll let you guys know how it goes. It's a little windy today. Worse, it's the weekend and I live on a golf course and the hedge is only 5 feet high. Every golfer that comes by stops short when they see me shouldering that rifle. Some pause and gawk. Others make their carts do a wheelie in their haste to move on. Won't be long before somebody cries wolf and I hear sirens at my door. Just another thing to worry about. Ah the joys of airgunning in an urban environment.

    -AlanL


  63. B.B.,

    Just to add to your post:

    About 5 years ago I've seen flying nitrogen tank with my own eyes. It was human factor as usual.
    Guy was riding his loader without enough caution and hit some tanks used by welders.
    So a nitrogen tank's valve was torn off. It was some disgusting whistle/yawl. That tank flew like torpedo along the factory floor and it punched through wooden door into factory's yard. Luckily no one got hurt, I guess that tank could break one's leg like a match. And of course we were all lucky it wasn't oxygen.

    I've heard some stories about PCP reservoirs. Both are "safety" type.
    One is about a man who overpressured his CZ-200 reservoir – almost nothing happened, it deformed and the air just bleeded off.
    Another one wasn't so lucky, but he was way stupid. He used self-buit reservoir oh his PCP without first pressure-testing it with oil or water. He was too sure about his skill in math and believed that if his calculations were right nothing could happen.
    Well, it went just as bad as it could.
    Reservoir's front plug (he used a machined alloy tube with 2 plugs, held in place by some bolts) went off like a bullet and made some nice hole in furniture. Guy got his one ear deaf for a month or two because of a broken eardrum and his hands shaking for abot the same period, it was some kind of contusion.

    So, to conclude, caution and head working right way are the best safety.

    BTW B.B., if you were in Army in Germany, where was your station? Dad served there in late 60's- early 70's with his NBC defence unit stationed near Potsdam.


  64. Anthony,

    Glad to hear you're getting over your nervousness about owning an AA S410.

    Thanks for the compliment.

    I have an AA S410 rifle and an AA S410 carbine that I put a classic tube on for more shots.

    The rifle currently has a bushnell elite 4200, 6-24×40 with mil dots and the carbine has a bushnell elite 3200, 7-21×40 with mil dots.

    Did you buy the rifle or the carbine? What pellets does your gun like the best at long range?

    kevin



  65. This one came to me through the Guest Blogger account from Mike Boyd,

    Our 4-H club recently received 4 Crosman Challengers rifles, the Dangers of PCP is a good post for people new to PCP.
    I am making all of my coaches attend some training I put together prior to charging these guns.

    Subject: Have you considered a potential topic concerning: Silhouette Shooting on the blog
    NRA or 4-H Silhouette rules are different, the young 4H kids only shot rams and pigs and work up to shooting all four by high school.

    Good equipment is a must to reach out to the maximum range, and a blog concerning silhouette could generate an interest in this sport.
    Can be a fun sport for kids and adults.

    Mike Boyd


  66. AlanL,

    You are wise to ask about the direction of adjustment knob rotation, because some Chinese scopes have their directions on backwards. Leapers is not one of them, though.

    Turn the adjustment knobs in the direction that you want the pellet to go.

    The fact that you are hitting the target too high leads me to wonder whether your gun has any droop at all. It sounds like you cannot get the rifle to shoot low enough. That probably means that the droop in the base you installed (the 460 base) has over-compensated.

    If you cannot get the rifle to shoot 3 inches LOW at 10 feet, then you need a different base. Fortunately there is a UTG base with no droop at all. That might be the one to use.

    Now, your last paragraph seems to negate the first two. You say the scope knob turns without feeling any resistance. That is a scope that is adjusted TOO HIGH. You have reached the spot where the erector tube is completely relaxed and the scope is not adjusting any more.

    The fix is to dial the vertical adjustment DOWN (clockwise) until the clicks start again.

    PLEASE go back to 10 FEET and start all over. Follow my 10-minute sight-in article and everything should work fine. Remember to turn the scope adjustment knobs in the direction in which you want the pellet to go.

    The article is here:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/scopes-part3/

    To resent your scope for this, turn the vertical adjustment knob all the way clockwise until it stops. Then come back halfway. Do the same with the horizontal knob and you will start pretty close to the middle of the scope's adjustment range.

    B.B.


  67. AlanL,

    While following B.B.'s advice to re-center your vertical adjustment, if they still won't engage and you still don't feel positive clicks, slightly tighten the allen screw inside your know as slinginglead suggested.

    kevin





  68. B.B.,

    Thanks. It was the windage knob that was slipping. As slinginglead and Kevin suggested, I slightly tightened the shallow central allen screw and bingo!- now it 'clicks' again. It was a little loose. The elevation knob was fine.

    I will redo the initial sighting-in procedure at the 10-foot distance again, with the scope at 3X and 10 yards AO, per your instructions. The first two times I did this the rifle refused to shoot more than 1.5" below the upper dot. It was always already well above the second dot which I had drawn 2.5" below the first (per your procedure, part 3.) 2.5" also seems to be the exact offset between the bore and the scope center with my current setup. This time I will be sure to start with both W & E knobs set to the middle of their travel range. This little step is missing in your Part3 procedure. It makes perfect sense to start that way, but I did not do that the first time. Instead I started with the knobs the way the scope came out of the factory box, whatever that was.

    I'll keep trying and report back.

    -AlanL


  69. AlanL, you may want to retreat indoors to shoot which is what I do.

    Joe Springfield,

    Now, here's an interesting topic. I've heard of Mitchell's Mausers and their site is impressive. But you don't have far to go to see a huge tide of vitriol against them on the web. Some accuse them of outright fraud. The drift of all this seems to be that their guns are good but what they brand as k98s are Yugo M48s which they restore and sell at inflated prices. I don't expect to be buying anything for awhile, so this is mostly interesting as a case of marketing and advertising credibility.

    Jan, I bet those guys thought you were right out of Deliverance.

    On the question of the Garand vs. the m1a and the appropriate caliber, Clint Fowler tells me that the Garand was designed for the 30-06 and the 308 rechamberings don't always work. It goes back to those days when Douglas MacArthur insisted that the new army rifle be chambered for 30-06 to use existing ammunition stocks. (If not for him we might be using a 6mm round (.276) today.) John Garand with great foresight designed a version of his rifle for the 30-06 in anticipation of this move, but whatever he did was so fundamental that the .308 rechambering is not reliable. The .308 works fine for the m1a.

    Clint also tells me that with his modifications, his m1a's and Garands have the same performance, and he also says that if he had his shooting career to do over he would use a Garand and not an m1a.

    But there may be something beyond Clint. The new drop-in metal stocks for the m1a like the Sage bolt right onto the action and eliminate the bedding problems that used to plague the m1a's. They also allow scoping, and the straight-line AR style stock supposedly removes muzzle flip so that the rifle is now controllable in full-auto at long last–should you be planning on using it that way. But all these modifications cost a ton.

    I learned this morning that the Alabama professor who shot her colleagues also shot and killed her brother by accident many years ago. She really was no match for guns.

    Off to Hawaii for a week. See you afterwards.

    Matt61


  70. Slinging Lead,

    OK, a comparison.

    My tarantula has at least grade 4 wood and very fine checkering. It looks better than either stock on my AA S410's.

    The tarantula has the typical FX power adjuster which limits you to 3 settings. Although this isn't a big deal the nod go to the air arms power wheel. While we're talking minor, the fx quick fill probe is easier than the air arms "banjo" fill adapter.

    The walnut thumbhole stocks on my Air Arms guns fit me better than the tarantula stock. The comb height and length of pull is perfect on the air arms thumbhole stocks.

    Shot count and velocity spread of the AA S410 rifle is better than the tarantula. The tarantula shot count is better than the AA S410 carbine even though I put a classic tube on the carbine.

    The triggers on all 3 guns are very adjustable but the nod goes to the AA S410 triggers. Maybe I haven't fiddled with the trigger on the tarantula enough but in between shooting it I swear the trigger gets worse. Doesn't stay adjusted? It's probably just me since I shoot the AA S410's more than the tarantula.

    I much prefer the aftermarket magazines in the AA S410's over the tarantula. While we're talking magazines and FX guns I hate the magazines on the ranchero. You need little tiny monkey fingers to load those.

    The accuracy beyond 75 yards goes to the AA S410 rifle. Up to that yardage the guns are equal as long as I'm shooting well.

    kevin


  71. kevin

    Thank you for the comparison. I saw a Tarantula on gunbroker not long ago with the grade 4 Turkish stock, and it was truly a sight to behold.

    Still, my first impulse was always kind of toward the s410, even before I bought the TX200.

    I always thought that I would go for the traditional stock, but now you have me curious. This is all hypothetical of course.

    If I were to get both rifles, I would need something to keep them in. A Bentley perhaps?;^)


  72. Slinging Lead,

    A couple more things about the AA S410 vs. FX Tarantula.

    The "straight back bolt" on my Tarantula and ranchero are sticky. Especially to close. The sidelever on the AA S410 is smooth as butter.

    If you do consider purchasing a Tarantula you should factor in resealing when considering the price you're willing to pay. Not a big deal but most of the Tarantula's are older (discontinued in 2007) and haven't been resealed.

    kevin


  73. AlanL,

    if 10 yards is the closest your scope Ojective will go, fine. I suggest turning the AO on the scope to it's nearest setting. One of my scopes will go down to 7 yards). Start with that to get your rifle and scope on "paper". Also, rest the rifle on your hand using the artillery hold with the hand resting on a rolled up blanket or something else soft. You want to take your body infirmities as much out of the equation as possibe (shaking, body tremor, things like that that drive us all nut).

    One last bit of a suggestion. If you're starting to get frustrated with the RWS, put it down and start shooting the Bronco. Also, don't shoot when golfers or other witnesses are around. Wait for them to pass.

    All you need is one paranoid phone call to the police and you'll give those guys a chance to use all their toys that your taxes have bought for the SWAT team. Up here in NJ, the SWAT team doesn't get out much so when they do, they take every advantage of the event, they can. I shudder to think what would happen if my neighbors saw me go out into my back yard with a scoped rifle.

    Hope I can stay up late enough to see if Apollo Ohno wins a gold!

    Fred PRoNJ


  74. AlanL,

    I have the same scope you do, and Fred's advice will work with it.

    When you take the time to reset everything on it per BB's instructions, also take the time to get the focus and AO right by following the instuctions at this link – it will pay off later:

    http://ateam.100free.com/ateamh/A_Team_Parallax_adj.htm

    BG Farmer put me on to it and it put an end to some fine tuning chasing that I was doing that I expect you'll end up doing to.

    It is an excellent scope once you get it dialed in and it holds zero very well. The centering excercise is worthwile even if you are not using adjustable mounts as it lets you see how far off your mounts are as you dial them in – then you can make a judgement call about what to do next.

    Alan in MI


  75. Kevin,

    “You need little tiny monkey fingers to load those” I always picture the monkey from the Little Rascals, makes me laugh.

    While I was only average at playing Operation as kid, and lack the dexterity of the fairer sex, I have managed to find a way to load most rifles or magazines.

    First, avoid .177 unless it is a break barrel. The smaller pellets are more difficult for thick fingers. In any case it is always easier to pour a few in the lid vs. picking then out of the full tin. Really avoid a single shot bolt action .177 scoped rifle like the QB-78 at all cost. Limited access caused about 25% of my pellets to be shot backwards in that rifle.

    Back to magazines, my .177 FX Whisper had a self feeding magazine that was okay, but could be a little difficult at times to load. On the other hand, the .22 caliber FX Cyclone has fairly standard magazines that can be loaded quickly if sat on a table or similar hard surface, no monkey needed. (Don’t get me wrong I would love to own a pellet loading trained monkey, he could also double as a gun bearer and even work the hand pump)

    Allow top heavy pellets to fall in the holes and then seat them with the ball of a Beeman pel-seat. I have found the round end of the Pel-seat indispensable. The pointy side is worthless; I have yet to find a pellet that wants such deep seating. Perhaps it could be sharpened and used as a shiv by survivalist?

    Slinging Lead,

    When I compared my oldest Springer that was made in 1933 to a new one, I found the technology nearly identical, save synthetic vs. leather seals. I think the changes in PCP’s are more pronounced. My Welbley Raider which was actually FX made was a far cry from a new Cyclone even though less than a decade separated them. I think the FX Tarantula falls in the category of being dated, unless you just like pretty wood?


  76. Wayne: You can claim your non-sageness all day, but you have made short work of my preconceptions about sticking with .22. And you and Kevin now have me lusting over this s410 thing that's in a price range I would have scoffed at just days ago. As B.B. said so ominously the other day, maybe it's just a matter of which s410 to get first! Sheesh!

    AlanL: Glad you're getting that scope adjustment thing sorted out. If nobody has said this out loud yet, it sounds like the Allen screw on your adjustment knob was just far enough out to put the knob in "zero resetting" mode. Zero-resetting mode allows exactly what you describe: for the knob to rotate without adjusting the scope so that you can match the zero on your rifle to the "0" marks on your knobs if you like. On the Leapers scopes, there are lines under the adjustment knobs to show you which "mode" you're in. If you screw the Allen screw all the way in, the turret is locked and won't adjust at all. If you screw it out to the first line, you can make adjustments as usual. If you screw it out to the second line, the knob turns freely for zero reset. Or at least that's the way my Leapers 4-16×50 works.

    I took the advice from the A-Team parallax article the last time it was mentioned on the blog, and it was definitely helpful! I was surprised at how much reticle movement was possible even with the picture nicely focused by the AO, and the technique in the article allowed me to reduce this almost to nothing.

    Matt RE Deliverance: I think I would need one of BG_Farmer's Kentucky Long Rifles to really look the part. Now that you mention it, I do have a banjo, but I've never taken it into the woods with me. Maybe that would really seal the deal…

    -Jan


  77. Volvo

    I did not know the Tarantula was considered dated technology. I AM a sucker for pretty wood though. That one on gunbroker was hypnotic. I will turn my gaze elswhere if the technology is so much better now.

    I think that you may have just inadvertently made the case that a PCP just a decade or so old is dated, yet a springer is … timeless? D'oh!

    A monkey would be excellent for loading pellets, especially in the Discovery .177 cal. like mine is. The monkey would have to be very well trained however, because they are known for flinging projectiles of their own making.

    Although strong, monkeys are much too small to properly operate a hand pump or carry even one double scoped rifle case. You would have to upgrade to an ape for that.

    I always liked Petey.


  78. Kevin,

    I just had one of your days. There I was all set to go with a bulging backpack, shoulder bag, and suitcase on wheels. I got a cab to the train station. There, I found that a bus would take us around track repairs. The bus was a little late but I got on and transferred to a train. From there, I took the BART, the San Francisco subway, to the airport only to find that they had closed the flight a half-hour before takeoff due to regulations—no exceptions. I asked to book a later flight, but they gave me a number to call. The number had a message saying that due to extreme weather conditions, they weren’t answering the phone and to try back later. After five attempts or so, I told the desk that their number was not working, but they said to keep trying as it had been that way all day. I asked for an internet café and got more numbers to call. After being on hold for 10 minutes, I got through. The person said that all the seats for my class of ticket were taken and that I would have to buy a new ticket for $1000 if I wanted to fly in the next three or four days. I decided to regroup and cancel my ticket so that I could get a credit for a future flight.
    So, it was back to the BART. I got off to switch to another line but the train never appeared. Only by reading the fine print on a poster did I learn that this particular line didn’t run at night. This delayed me by 20 minutes or so and put me in jeopardy of missing the last train back home for hours. I was facing a Special Forces obstacle course in which I would have to run out of the subway with my three bags, weave through a crowd, run down some steps, put my subway ticket into the exit gate, exert a superhuman effort to lift all my bags to clear the rails of the subway exit, race up more flights of stairs to make the train all in a couple minutes. On top of this, I needed to make a pit stop badly. If I made the pit stop, I might miss the train. If I didn’t and missed the train, I would be stuck out on the platform since the bathroom was in the subway area that required a ticket. As the subway pulled in, I made my calculations. It was going to be pit stop. When the doors opened, I broke free and stumbled along with the rest of the crowd running to meet the train. At the bottom of the stairs, I broke right for the bathroom but was cut off by someone just ahead of me. The bathroom only fit one. I broke left and just made the train with no time to spare. Thankfully, the train went all the way to my destination. However, my cab was out of service, so I hiked the last three miles home.
    The lesson is that gone are the days when you can hop the next flight if you miss one. Allow massive padding in your travel plans.
    Also, I couldn’t help observing the mix of people one encounters—some arrogant creeps like the receptionists at the airline counter and some sterling people like the receptionist on the phone who went through my options. It just about breaks even. One gets the sense of a vast system bordering on collapse that is kept going, just barely, by people doing a highly professional job in thankless circumstances with no recognition (dealing with a backlog of agitated customers over the phone?!?!).

    Matt61



  79. Slinging lead,
    I liked Petey too, and my current dog is named after him, even if he is more poodle than pit bull. You are correct in the timeless description of a Springer, like a knife, the differences of time are subtle. PCP’s seem more closely rated to TV sets or home computers.





  80. Matt: Dang! Better travels next time. I'm not sure I realized you were from SF. I'll have to look you up the next time I manage to get to that most wonderful place. Road trip to Ashland, OR? PS, remind me to relay my favorite unauthenticated Bay Area gun range story sometime.

    -Jan


  81. Hey AlanL,

    I was thinking of your problem with "flyers" today and remembered when I took my RWS350 to a range (30 yards) and started going through my pellet sampler package. Many of the targets would look like I was using a shotgun – the pellets were flying all over the place. Then I got to the JSB's, RWS pellets and Crosmans. All of a sudden, I started getting groups.

    So the question I'd like to know is what pellets are/were you using in the 54?

    Fred PRoNJ

    Silver Medal for Ohno! How about those Biathlon contestants!


  82. Jan,

    I'm actually in Davis a little outside of San Francisco. Yes, tell me about the gun range story. Wayne is within striking distance, but the job situation is so shaky out here that I have to hold off on any big plans.

    If you shave corners, you can pay the price which is another lesson which I should have learned from buying airguns.

    AlanL, good point from Fred. JSB Exacts generally do a very good job in high-powered airguns because of their high standards. After trying them in my B30, I didn't have to look farther. A problem I had fitting the (perhaps) oversized bore of my B30 seems to have disappeared. Maybe I got a bad batch.

    Matt61


  83. Happy Birthday, Frank B. You deserve a sharp knife although I don't know who could get them sharper than you. Maybe I'll have something to show you when your next birthday rolls around. I'm finally getting some results from my samurai techniques which have caught up with the other things I do.

    Matt61


  84. Kevin, Slinging Lead, Matt61, GenghisJan, Fred, Volvo and B.B.,

    Thanks for all your great advice and support. Today I finally did it! I got my .22 cal. Diana 54 sighted in properly and am hitting nickel-sized groups in the bullseye consistently at 25 meters.

    Fred, I started out with JSB Exacts in the blue tin and somehow never got that warm fuzzy feeling. Switched to Crosman Premiers Lot No. PY10952 made 9/22/2009 and seem to get much better results. In fact, just for the heck of it, decided to get dangerous and aimed at a hanging 3/4" diameter rope 29 meters away and hit it smack dab in the center. Next I want to try a few more Predator Polymags and the H&N Sport 21.14 grain Baracuda Match pellets. This Baracuda is one beautiful looking pellet, in my humble opinion.

    As promised, I've posted a PDF with some pictures for you all on YouSendIt.com, my favorite FTP site. Here's the link:

    https://rcpt.yousendit.com/819752004/ff8f8352882d5c47e9ebf0ab1c9f755a

    The download expires in 7 days.

    After getting the Diana squared away I took out my new Crosman 1377 pistol for the first time and found it was shooting high with Crosman Premiers at 10 m, with the rear sight set as low as it would go. So I unscrewed the windage screw, removed the sight and carefully filed about 1/32" off the bottom of the sight. Bingo, now, with the sight adjusted at near bottom I hit 1.5" groups around the bullseye. I'm happy with that, considering my inexperience. I owe that to Tom's pistol grip video. Otw I'd be all over the place. That is a sweet pistol and not heavy at all.

    Thanks again to all for your unflagging encouragement.

    -AlanL


  85. Kevin,

    I got the Warthog V-sharp knife sharpener. It's great! Spent last night sharpening all of my wife's kitchen knives and my Victorinox pocket knife. As you said: idiot proof. Thanks!

    -AlanL


  86. AlanL,

    good for you. Wish you had included a photo of the target in your pix. I have to say that the scope on that rifle is HUGH. Are you comfortably getting enough room for eye relief when you sight through the scope?

    By the way, which coast of FL are you on? This photo looks like it's in the Margate area with all the golf courses they have around there.

    Fred PRoNJ



  87. AlanL,
    NICE PICs!! 54 looks pretty cool, too. I hope your kids wear safety glasses when they're playing on the swing set :-) Did you clean that pool just for us?

    -Chuck



  88. Slinging Lead,

    That tarantula has been on gunbroker for months and has been on brads several times in the past 3 months. Saw it on brads again about a week or two ago. Probably worth around $700. A competitor had a .22 tarantula that was completely re-sealed, with 6 or 7 magazines and they were asking $850.00. Took about a month to sell it.

    They're great guns for the money but some sellers are slow to accept the true value nowadays of these masterpieces.

    kevin


  89. Happy Birthday Frank!

    May each new day bring you more and more joy!

    Jan,

    I got in shape with my AAs410. I'm lucky to have an indoor pool attached to the length of the 60' house. So I can get 20 yards on diagonal, or 19 sitting FT style.

    So, I practiced the sitting position for at least 6 months, 200+ shots per night with the 410. It's so quiet, and quick, the family watching TV in the next room were not bothered at all… while I got in lots of practice each night.

    I'd load up 13 to 15 mags, turn the power adjuster to 700fps and shoot them on a fill of 2,975 down to about 1,100. There is maybe 1/8" loss of poi spread out in the last 30 shots. How could CO2 ever be as good??? I'd usually do it twice, just getting up to fill the gun and mags.. so I would stay in the sitting position 20-30 min. at a time…

    ..Getting comfortable in that position is very important.. Do some sit ups and the like.. I get to swim.
    Even with a short session with the 410 side lever you can get the trigger timing practice one needs.

    Matt is right, one can waste a lot of time and money with lower priced rigs. Search your soul and budget.

    I'm starting to think one could start with the Bronco totally setup with a 3-9x32AO or 3-9x40AO leapers scope for well under $200..

    .. and save up until you can get an Air Arms S410 FAC side lever.

    With those two guns you can have loads of fun and compete side by side with your kid!.. and he could kick your butt if your not paying attention!

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range


  90. Matt 61,

    The trials & tribulations of travel.

    Sorry to hear you had one of my bad days. Don't think I've had one that bad in a long while.

    Glad you arrived safely.

    kevin


  91. Volvo,

    Good rundown on the guns you need monkey hands to load.

    I've never owned a beeman pel-seat. Just use a bic pen. Now you know what to get me for my birthday.

    Haven't gotten tired of that worn out cyclone yet? As fast as you're been churning and burning airguns I'd thought it would be on the block. This really tells me something about a cyclone.

    kevin



  92. AlanL,

    You made my day.

    Your knives are sharp (thanks to B.B.'s warthog) and you're shooting nickel size groups in a yard without snow (nice pictures of a nice home). I spent the morning digging out from our recent blizzard.

    May the bluebird of happiness fly up your nose and nest.

    kevin
    ps-nice shooting. surprised about the jsb's not performing well in your 54.


  93. B.B.,

    In part 4 of your terrific article on your extremely rare HW 55SF you had tried a few pellets and found the hobby's to be the best.

    Have you found a better pellet for that fine gun or are the RWS Hobby's still the best?

    kevin



  94. B.B. & All,

    Happy Valentines Day,

    I have two loves.. my wife and family…

    and all the guns and folks I've met through this porthole of friendly information… Thanks!

    Foot Pound question..

    I've been having loads of fun finding the way the open sights work on the 1890 marlin in .45LC
    I was shooting the marlin 336c in 30/30 too, letting the barrels cool while I switched back and forth.

    Again, the 255gr .45cal pistol round going about 900-1,000fps breaks the 2×6 in half and sends it flying in pieces.. while the 150gr 30/30 just passes through. The .45 is hollow point and the 30/30 is soft point.

    The book says the 30/30 has more foot lbs..

    ..is it just the hollow point doing the damage, or does a slower heavier, fatter bullet really have more foot lbs on the target, instead of through it?

    Wacky Wayne


  95. Slinging Lead,

    The stock of my AA is the nicest I have ever seen in many years, not counting the laminate ones. It has a dark tone I haven't seen in other s410's.
    Believe me, when I lost those thousand bucks, I felt a bit sad. But when I see that stock, I am glad again. I can live without the Bentley :)

    Kevin,

    I have shot H&N Hollow Point's, Gamo Pro Match, Gamo Pro Magnum, Crosman Premier Hollow Point, and JSB Exacts 16grs. The last two were the best, specially the JSB's.
    My s410 is the xtra FAC (the long one). I need to shoot it with the extra heavy JSBs yet.

    Greetings,

    Anthony


  96. Wayne,

    A 30-30 Winchester definitely has more energy than a 45 Long Colt due to a much greater velocity. Tom has a page on PA’s site that you can compute ft lbs on along with the formula used. The reaction you see I suspect is what caused the Taylor KO Factor to be in vogue with lovers of the large calibers as it takes the size of the projectile into account.


  97. Kevin,

    I will order you a Pel- Seat tomorrow. The ball end also allows you to smooth the pellet skirt for a perfect fit in a break barrel. What you describe with a pen is similar to opening a beer bottle with your teeth.


  98. AlanL

    Great job man, I am happy to hear you worked things out.

    Beautiful house and yard by the way, I love those palms and cordylines! Glad they didn't get killed off by your unseasonably low temperatures.

    You must be confident of your new marksmanship skills, with no backstop behind that pellet trap!




  99. Anthony,

    Up to about 35 yards almost any pellet does well in my AA S410's. Beyond that the jsb 15.8 gr and especially if there's wind the jsb 18.1 gr do the best. Everyone raves about the kodiaks but even in wind they're average in both of my guns.

    Have fun finding the best pellets in your AA S410.

    kevin




  100. Bud,

    I'm not a buyer of a Crosman Mark I. The only one I owned I bought new in the early 80's at K-Mart if I remember right. Great gun. Minimized my squirrel problem. One and only CO2 gun I've owned. Gave it to a friend that had two boys and a cabin. They had a ball with it and still have the gun. Still shoots strong.

    I follow the sales partly out of nostalgia and partly because I'm amazed at the mods that are done on this platform.

    kevin


  101. All your birthday wishes have completely made my day.Up until I read them,the high point of my day was picturing SlingingLead's poo-flinging pellet monkey and wondering if he weighs his "rounds" for accuracy….I know he handloads! Seriously guys,you made me feel good. Thank you, Frank B


  102. Kevin,

    No R-8 yet. I do have another R-7 coming, this one in .20 caliber for a change. This will be a shock, but I actually found an old stock Gamo in .177 that I have become fond of. I have a GXT trigger for it that should be here Monday also. And for now, that is my total spring arsenal.

    How about you R-8?

    (I have an extra Santa Rosa Pell Seat with your name on it, but Airport security has my extra bottle opener)


  103. Snowbirds,

    Thanks for the compliments. Fred: East coast- Miami. Kendall area.

    If you guys ever come on down here, let me know– B.B.'s got my info.

    Forgot to mention that the 2" sunshade covering the breech is no longer a problem: I've totally mastered a smooth cocking motion bracing the rifle against my right side and load easily with my right hand while the lever is securely pinned by my arm. All the left hand has to do is hold the forearm (of the gun) and twist left a little. It's a breeze once you get the hang of it and a nice workout too.

    I'll post pics of my targets testing C. Premiers, H&N's, JSB's etc.– hopefully next weekend if it doesn't pour.

    -AlanL


  104. Volvo,

    The PW R8 hasn't arrived. Bluing has been delayed. Paul's last two batches of bluing bombed. I'm trying to be patient but it's not something I'm known for.

    I'm sending you an email.

    kevin



  105. B.B.,

    At the end of Part 3 on the Bronco you mentioned that next you'd test it with a scope, probably a shorty with long eye relief. Any recommendations yet on what that might be?

    Regards,
    AlanL




  106. Wayne,

    Your .30-30 definitely has more energy than the .45 Colt. What you are seeing is a simple demonstration of physics. The .30 caliber bullet sails through the lumber leaving little of its energy in the board, while the larger, slower .45 bullet leaves a lot more.

    It's like a .177 that acupunctures game while a slower fatter .22 wallops it.

    B.B.



  107. I'm interested in the Benjamin Discovery .22 and have read that it is quite loud. Does anyone make a suppressor to cut down on the sound ? I'd appreciate hearing from you on this subject. I'm using a Winchester springer now (1000fps and the sound in not so loud that it gets my neighbors attention.




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