Tuesday, April 11, 2006

The HW 97 & HW77: A full report

by B.B. Pelletier

A lot of our readers were just not satisfied with the report I did on the HW97 & HW77 on February 7. That report lacked velocity numbers and accuracy figures. It was more a report of my feelings about the guns, rather than a meat-and-potatoes look at them. So, today, I'll make up for that transgression.

The two guns are VERY similar!
The HW77 came first, back in 1982. It was originally supposed to have the same power as the Beeman R1, but the weight of the underlever gun rose to over 11 lbs. before the Beemans decided to scale it back. The underlever adds a lot of weight, plus the sliding compression chamber means the piston has to be a smaller diameter to fit inside, so there is no easy way to get R1 power from either a 77 or a 97.

What's a sliding compression chamber?
In traditional spring air rifles, the piston rides directly inside the compression tube - the same tube that houses the mainspring. However, in order to gain access to the rear of the barrel for loading, Weihrauch put the piston inside a sliding compression tube that moves back with the piston when it's cocked. In fact, when the gun is cocked, the cocking lever acts directly on the sliding chamber by pushing it back. The piston is inside and has to go along with the chamber. When the sear catches the piston, the sliding chamber is free to return to the front after a pellet has been loaded.

Because the sliding chamber has to fit inside the outer tube of the gun, it has to be smaller, and the piston that fits inside is smaller still. A gun with a sliding compression chamber is giving away piston diameter. Piston diameter and the length of the piston's travel (the stroke) determine how much air is compressed. Any airgun with a sliding compression chamber is at a disadvantage when it comes to power generation. Modern technology has improved the situation, somewhat, but because it has also been applied to breakbarrels, they have maintained the power lead.

HW77
The HW77 is the earlier rifle, and you'll notice the stated velocity figures are slightly higher than those of the HW97. In reality, this rifle in factory trim can generate as much as a full foot-pound more than the 97. Remember, the 77 started out as a scaled-down magnum rifle like the R1. In a well broken-in rifle, you should see Crosman 7.9-grain Premiers going well above 900 f.p.s., with some guns reaching 920 f.p.s. My tuned 77 pushed them to 945, or so, but that was with an aftermarket spring. The HW77 and the Beeman HW77 Mark II carbine also come with open sights that can be taken off for scope mounting, but they're fine sights in their own right. No fiberoptics here! Though the stated weight for the carbine is below 9 lbs., it can go over depending on the density of the wood in the stock.

Accuracy with the 77 is the equal of the TX200 - one-inch and slightly better for five shots at 50 yards on a perfect day with an experienced shooter. The 77 is very insensitive to hold - about like a CF-X. You can get away with holding onto the stock, but you had better have good follow-through! The two-stage Rekord trigger can be safely set to around 1.5 lbs.- 2 lbs. with a glass-crisp lettoff. The best pellet in the .177 caliber 77 might be the Crosman 7.9-grain Premier, the 8.6-grain H&N Field & Target Trophy or the 8.4-grain JSB Exact. I would stay away from heavy pellets in this rifle, because I have never found them to be as accurate as the three I've listed for you.

You can also get the Weihrauch HW77 rifle (a non-Beeman gun, but the identical model in a rifle stock) in .22 caliber, which this gun can certainly handle. I have no experience with this caliber in this rifle, so I'll move on.

HW97
The HW97K was developed as a low-power, smooth-shooting spring rifle. It initially hit the market as a 12 foot-pound gun. Even Beeman sold it that way in the beginning. Eventually, it was tweaked up in power to today's level in the Beeman HW97 Mark III, which is close to the 77 but not exactly as high. Weihrauch had to add stroke to the piston to get the power up - something they did not have to do with the 77. That said, the power figures are stated exactly the same as the 77 on some websites and very close on others. In my experience, however, a well broken-in 97 is going to shoot a 7.9-grain Crosman Premier at 885 to 910 f.p.s. - just a trifle slower than a 77. Individual guns may perform differently, and it's certainly possible for an exceptional 97 to out-perform an average 77.

The 97 has the same Rekord trigger as the 77, and it works just as well. None of the 97s come with sights, so a scope is mandatory. The stock is fuller (higher cheekpiece) than the 77's stock, and I think it feels better when using a scope than a 77 with a scope. The 97 also comes in .22 - a caliber it is certainly suited for. Beeman also offers the rifle in .20 caliber - something that the 77 does not offer. Generally speaking, the 97 is a trifle heavier than the 77, but there are so many models to choose from that wood density will even that out a lot.

Sensitive to hold!
As for accuracy, the 97 is the equal of the 77 and TX200, but unlike both of those rifles, this one is very sensitive to how it is held. I found it likes to lay on the flat of my open palm placed out near the end of the stock. It took quite a while to learn how to hold my 97. Once I found what it liked, it shot well. Use the same pellets as I recommended for the HW77.

Common to both rifles
When the rifle is cocked, the safety automatically pops out on the left side of the receiver. A Weihrauch or TX shooter soon becomes so familiar with taking the rifle off safety that it is part of the cocking effort. If you want to reapply the safety on either rifle you must fully retract the cocking lever a second time. Neither rifle has a true anti-beartrap mechanism, so both rely on the trigger (to hold back the sliding compression chamber while loading). I wouldn't trust it, because it's not as positive as the ratchet safety on the TX or the Diana RWS sidelevers. When you cock the rifle, HOLD ON TO THE COCKING HANDLE WHILE YOU LOAD! If the sear were to slip, you must be able to restrain the sliding compression chamber from slicing off your digits. Both rifles have more room to load the pellet than the TX200.

That's my report. I've owned several HW77s and one 97, plus I've shot may others over the years. Either rifle is a great spring air rifle that you can be very proud to own.

92 Comments:

At April 11, 2006 9:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

What is the difference of a sliding compression chamber and a sliding breech?

Alex

 
At April 11, 2006 10:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It initially hit the market as a 12 foot-pound gun. Even Beeman sold it that way in the beginning. Eventually, it was tweaked up in power to today's level in the Beeman HW97 Mark III.


Does that mean that the weihrauch model is still 12foot pounds?

 
At April 11, 2006 10:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

Thank you for that wonderful post!!!!!!!!!.I think you hit the important stuff.Keep em coming like this.

:>]

CF-X guy

 
At April 11, 2006 1:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another excellent, and very informative story about the HW77/97 air guns. At one point I thought of buying one (97) but eventually got the RWS 52 (177). Since you recently wrote about spring air guns, I am prompted to ask if you can do a story sometime on the merits and faults of the air spring like the Theoben. It seems to me that the idea of an air spring is very desirable in a hunting rifle since it can remain compressed without weakening the spring and the gun can be adjusted to shoot hard or soft. I liked the idea of an air spring so much that I checked the web site for the Thoben and was looking to see if one of these devices could be fitted to a RWS 52. It seems that do make such a device for other guns, but not for the Diana/RWS line of spring guns. Is there some reason why the air spring can fit some air guns and not others?

PCR

 
At April 11, 2006 1:48 PM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

PCR,

I like the idea of doing Theoben guns and I'll do it. I've owned several, plus I've had experience with others.

I'm guessing that the reason they don't convert some guns is 1. the design of the sear release may not lend itself to an easy conversion and 2. the performance may not be as good with the gas spring. The RWS 52 is super-efficient already and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Theoben could not improve upon it significantly. There's more, but I'll save it for my posting.

Thanks,

B.B.

 
At April 11, 2006 4:40 PM, Anonymous PODEROSO said...

BB,

Do you mean that the beeman hw97 has more than 12 foot pound but the weihrauch doesnt?

PODEROSO

 
At April 11, 2006 7:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,I am glad to hear you will be reveiwing the ben/sheridan lagacy,looks like a nice cheap priced magnum airgun but I will soon find out how good it really is.

 
At April 11, 2006 7:08 PM, Anonymous Jed said...

Mainly because I choose my products wisely and I dont like to spend alot of money so I like advice on guns before I buy them,good thing I came across this site.

 
At April 11, 2006 9:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a good completion of the original post BB did in February:
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/02/hw97-hw77.html

 
At April 11, 2006 11:45 PM, Anonymous D.S. said...

BB,I PULLED THE STOCK OFF MY WAIHRAUCH RX2 TO REFINISH IT. WHEN I PUT THE GUN BACK TOGETHER I CANT COCK IT WITHOUT HOLDING THE SAFTY ALL THE WAY OFF. DO YOU KNOW IF THERE IS ANY PERTICULAR WAY OR ORDER THAT THE STOCK SHOULD GO BACK ON? THANKS FOR ANY HELP YOU CAN GIVE ME ON THIS.

 
At April 12, 2006 7:33 AM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

PODEROSO,

No, both rifles have equal power. What I was trying to say was Beeman introduced the HW97 when it was still just a 12 foot-pound gun.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 7:37 AM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

Jed,

That's what this blog is all about. Nobody has the opportunity to try these guns out before buying them, so I am attempting to tell you what to expect when you get your gun. Of course everything I say is filtered through my own value system, but I try to remain as objective as possible.

The goal is no surprises.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 7:55 AM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

Alex,

I didn't see your question until today. There is no difference between a sliding compression chamber (the correct term) and a sliding breech. The breech does not slide. The breech is the back end of the barrel where the pellet is loaded. But some folks choose their words less carefully and call something by a slang term - like calling a gas spring a gas ram. It promotes confusion.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 7:59 AM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

d.s.,

I have no experience with the RX-2. Your best bet is to call Beeman and speak to Don Walker.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 10:17 AM, Anonymous PODEROSO said...

BB,

Where do I get the venom tune for the hw97k?

PODEROSO

 
At April 12, 2006 10:24 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

PODEROSO,

Go to the Webley site and call up the Webley custom shop page.

If you don't want to send your rifle to England, I'm sure there are some airgunsmiths who can tune it for you here.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 10:32 AM, Anonymous PODEROSO said...

BB,

Before I buy the rifle,I want to know what other rifle is good in the $460-$480 price range?

PODEROSO

 
At April 12, 2006 10:35 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

PODEROSO,

Did you miss my rant about the TX200? Go here and see the best spring-piston air rifle currently made (in my humble opinion).

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/gun/174

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 10:43 AM, Anonymous JDB said...

BB,

Can you make a post about the gamo rocket pellets?

JDB

 
At April 12, 2006 10:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,
Is there a US weihrauch website?


CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 10:49 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CF-X guy,

Nope, just the German one.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 10:51 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

JDB,

Gamo rocket pellets coming up!

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 10:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

So where do I find the foot pound info in that site?

CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 11:04 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CF-X guy,

They don't display the energy data because in Germany shooters are limited to guns producing no more than 7.5 joules (about 6 foot-pounds) by law. Since every gun develops the max, energy figures make no sense.

The velocity numbers on Pyramyd Airs website are correct for light pellets. The Beeman site lists the energy figures and they are identical for the HW 77 and HW97 - what I said in the posting. Because these are spring guns, we know those figures were also developed using light pellets.

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 11:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

Yes beeman list them but they dont have the 22cal.Where do I check?

CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 12:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

In which web site does it say that the weihrauch hw97k is 17 foot pounds?

I just called beeman and they told me that they dont have info on the .22 model.I would like to know of a website that talks about the hw97 in the US and talks about foot pounds and stuff like that.I only want to read about it and learn,I dont do it because I care if it has a lot or less foot pounds.

CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 1:44 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CF-X guy,

I just read this post several times and I can't find where the power of the HW 97 is listed as 17 foot-pounds. I see that I gave some velocity numbers that differ from all dealer figures, but can you please point me to where I said 17 foot-pounds?

Was it perhaps part of a comment discussion somewhere? If so, was I the one who said it first, or was it one of our readers?

Help me,

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 2:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

Yes,you said that first.
You said it on the april 6 tx200 part 2 post on April 07, 2006 5:38 PM.There you said that the test we did on this site said under 15 foot pounds and the HW site said 17 foot pounds so it must be in beetween.
Check it out.

CF-X guy

CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 2:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It was in the comment section of the tx200 part 2.

CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 2:32 PM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said...

CF-X guy,

I found this comment that DSW said in the comments section the day before (April 06 at 10:06 PM when answering a question of yours:

"Now we go to the second section of the calculator.

A HW97 has a claimed fp of 17 (I think), let's assume it's true. put in 17fp and 28gr and what do you get?"

The words I THINK mean DSW was not sure. later, when I answered PODEROSO, I did say the HW site said 17 foot-pounds, so I got confused from DSW's conversation with you in which he used a hypothetical power level and a day later with PODEROSO, when I referred to that hypothetical power figure as a fact.

I believe that is what happened.

My bad!

Can we now drop this discussion?

B.B.

 
At April 12, 2006 6:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

Its ok.We all make mistakes.By the way,I just came back from my local sports store and bought a crosman 357gw kit.With shipping in pyramidair it was $110 and since the owner of the store is my cousin he sold it to me for $100.I put the 8 inch barrel on wich is easy.The only thin you have to do is take of a screw and mount it then put the screw back on.I was suprised by its power.The accuracy is not so good with the 4 inch barrel but with the 8 inch it is very accurate and powerful.The grips arent rubber but plastic.The red dot can only be mounted on the 4 inch barrel.One thing I dont like is the weight of the gun with the 8 inch barrel.Its HEAVY.Most pars are plastic.The 4 inch barrel is plastic but the 8 inch barrel is steel so that is way its so heavy with it.The trigger is kind of hard but I dont find it that hard.You get 4 magazines.The one in the gun and 3 more.So you have 40 shots without having to put pellets in the mags.The c02 cartridge last for about 60 to 70 shots.To put the mag on you have to press a boton on top of the gun and the barrel breaks like a break barrel rifle.You put the mag in and then you close.The safety is manual.The paint is what you would expect from this price range.I definetly think that this is a much more expesive gun because of all the accesories and the 8 inch barrel being my favorite and the performance of the gun overall.I also bought some gamo raptors to hear them go supersonic but could only shoot 1.I didnt hear a much but may be because I was 10 feet away from the target I didnt have time to react.Well thats my experience in the first hour ive been with the crosman 357gw.Thanks.


CF-X guy

 
At April 12, 2006 6:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

By the way,I love what you do and love this blog!!!!!!!!!!!!

CF-X guy

 
At April 13, 2006 10:14 AM, Anonymous The Pellet Master said...

BB,

In .22 cal,if the rifle was tested with a 12.5 grain pellets(example) and its rated at 730fps,will it be able to do more fps with a 10 grain pellet?

The pellet master

 
At April 13, 2006 10:26 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The pellet master,

Yes it would.

B.B.

 
At April 13, 2006 11:10 AM, Anonymous The Pellet Master said...

BB,

When you have the time and if you can,please do a post on beeman kodiak.

The Pellet Master

 
At April 13, 2006 11:11 AM, Anonymous The Pellet Master said...

I mean the rifle.

The pellet master.

 
At April 13, 2006 11:46 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The pellet master,

I will put it on the schedule.

B.B.

 
At April 23, 2006 8:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

I saw a weihrauch hw97 with a long barrel.I think it was the mkII.What does this rifle do that the hw97k cant do? or what can the hw97k do that the mkII cant?
Thanks.

CF-X guy

 
At March 29, 2007 9:50 AM, Anonymous Trevor said...

BB,

A bit off topic, but maybe interesting? We know that these rifles (97,77 & TX200) are a pretty accurate for FT shooting, but do you have any knowledge on how the accuracy gets affected (if the rifle is already zeroed in on a previous day) by say change in the weather. ie a very cold day (dense air) as opposed to a very hot day. Or maybe the weather changes during the day? We hear of pellets being sorted for weight ect, but do they take into account changes in air pressure?

Trevor

 
At March 29, 2007 9:59 AM, Anonymous Trevor said...

BB,

I was thinking in terms of the compressed air, but could also be applied to the environment.

 
At May 27, 2007 1:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,
I wanna buy a field target rifle, ive narrowed down my chioce to two rifles: Weihrauch HW77 and Air Arms TX 200, i know those two are superb air rifles, but could you give me you opinion about each?
Also, ive heard its quite easy to get your fingers cut off in underlevers, is that true for this rifles, if so, what should i do to avoid it?
I also have two scopes in my mind, the Leapers SWAT 8-32x 56 and the Nikko Stirling 8-32x 44 TargetMaster, i hope you can give me your opinion about each and tell me if the Nikko will withstand the recoil of both rifles.


Thanks a Lot

Alex

 
At May 27, 2007 4:34 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Alex,

I have owned both these air rifles. My 77 was tuned for field target and my TX200 Mk III is still exactly the way it came from the factory. The TX is the better rifle. It has a better trigger (it's a refinement of the Rekord that's on the 77), the better stock shape, the more powerful powerplant and the smoother shot cycle. The TX also has a positive ratchet safety to prevent the sliding chamber from moving, so your fingers are safe. The 77 does not have anything.

As for the scopes, I have experience with the Leapers, which is my current field target scope, but I have no experience with the Nikko.
I believe both would handle either rifle.

B.B.

 
At September 14, 2007 10:35 AM, Blogger andreas said...

B.B.

Can you please rank the following rifles in each of these categories:

1. Accuracy
2. Technique required (less is better)
3. Power

The rifles are

1. Weihrauch HW77
2. Weihrauch HW97
3. RWS 52
4. RWS 48 (if not exactly the same as the 52)

Which is the best in each category?

Thanks a lot

 
At September 14, 2007 10:41 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

andreas,

You are thinking of buying one of these guns and you hope that if I rank them using a multivariate criteria you will be better able to choose.

Is that right? Because if it is - it doesn't work that way.

Tell me which gun appeals to you the most, and if you know why, tell me that.

B.B.

 
At September 14, 2007 11:01 AM, Blogger andreas said...

B.B.,

I can't find a TX200 where I live, and I can't import it... The best springers that I can find are those I listed, plus the RWS 54 which I can't buy mostly due to price. (I say mostly because deep inside I think I don't trust the anti-recoil mechanism).

I want a springer for long range accuracy, which can be still used for small game hunting... I just want it to be accurate at long distances. I will only be shooting birds. (I rarely go out for hunting alone)

Note that I will be selling my open sighted CFX for this new rifle which I plan to scope.

For some reason I feel that the HW77 or the RWS 52 are my best bets. I need to know which one requires the least technique. It's not that don't want to be a good marksman, I just want the air rifle to be fun.

Also I find the two Weihrauch rifles easier to cock.

What do you think BB? Thanks for the help

 
At September 14, 2007 11:38 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Andreas,

Now you are thinking! I like the HW77 over the Diana 52. It is less sensitive to recoil and has a better trigger and a better scope mounting system.

B.B.

 
At September 14, 2007 11:44 AM, Blogger andreas said...

B.B. Thanks!

What I don't understand is why the price of the 97 is higher than the 77. From what I read, the 77 seems to be better...

 
At September 14, 2007 11:59 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Andreas,

No idea!

B.B.

 
At September 14, 2007 12:22 PM, Blogger andreas said...

hehe.. thanks BB

appreciate the help

 
At December 17, 2007 3:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB ,i have a question. i am between a HW97K and a Diana 460 Magnum. Which one would you suggest and why. Help because i cant decide which one.

thnx in advance

 
At December 17, 2007 3:45 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

You have a tough choice. The 460 is more powerful, but the 97K has the better trigger and is slightly more accurate. If you don't already own a Rekord trigger, I think the 97K might be best.

B.B.

 
At December 17, 2007 4:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

how more powerful is 460 magnum according to your tests(not the advertised fps)

thnx

 
At December 17, 2007 4:31 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The 460 is about a 21 foot-pound rifle in .22, while the 97K is around 17-18 foot-pounds.

B.B.

 
At December 17, 2007 5:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what about .177 cause that is the caliber im interested in

 
At December 17, 2007 7:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

provide me and the pellets u used if possible

 
At December 17, 2007 7:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hw97k advertised velocity is 951fps. How much fps to expect from a jsb exact 8.64 grains and approximately how much a diana 460 magnum can achieve with the jsbs.

P.S. Above 2 posts are mine too

thnx in advance

 
At December 18, 2007 8:59 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

You are getting way too focused on velocity. Accuracy is what matters.

You can figure that if the .22 460 is faster than the HW97K, the .177 will be, too. Why don't you simply read the tests I have done on the .177 460?

To find them, go to the current blog page and type this into the search window - RWS Diana 460.

That will give you the links to all the posts about that rifle.

B.B.

 
At December 18, 2007 1:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi i decided to go with the HW97K and i booked it today. I believe it will satisfy my expectations. thnx for your help.

 
At January 20, 2008 11:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB,

i have a couple of questions for you?

1)between a diana 460 and hw97k what would you choose and why?

2)it is said that bying a fixed barrel rifle is better in terms of accuracy and longetivity of the rifle. Is that true?

3) When you store a new gun for 3 months for example without using it, will that affect its performance and operation?

thnx

 
At January 20, 2008 12:22 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

460/97,

You didn't tell me what you want to do with the airgun. Hunt? Get the 460 in .22 caliber.

Field target? Get the 97 in .177 caliber.

General shooting? The 97 is easier to cock, so it's probably what you want. Get .177 because the pellets are cheaper.

Three months is nothing. Storage begins with more than a year, and becomes serious at more than 10 years.

B.B.

 
At February 17, 2008 10:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi BB,
I was just wondering, could a weihrauch hw 97k go supersonic with hyper velocity pellets or even pba pellets

 
At February 17, 2008 10:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi bb,
I just wanted to know which gun would you recomend?
The Gamo Shadow 1000 or the weihraugh hw97k

 
At February 17, 2008 10:21 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The HW 97 could easily go supersonic with lightweight pellets - Crosman Silver Eagle hollowpoints being the best. Don't expect accuracy!

Comparing the Gamo Shadow 1000 to an HW 97 is an unfair comparison. The HW 97 is much better built, has a far better trigger, is much more accurate and of course costs many times more.

B.B.

 
At February 20, 2008 4:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB

my father took my airgun for hunting (HW97K) two times and i believe he was keeping the gun cocked for a while before firing (minute/s). He only shot 30 to 50 pellets. is the spring damaged ?

thnx

 
At February 20, 2008 4:33 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Probably not. In my R1 book I left four different springs cocked for a straight month (732 hours) and the worst of them only lost 6 percent of its power. In the first 48 hours, several of the mainsprings actually developed GREATER power, if you can believe that!

B.B.

 
At February 20, 2008 4:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hehe weird!!!

no i dont think he will ever leave an airgun cocked. he is an experienced hunter but with shotguns not airguns. i believe he loaded the gun and left it there till prey appeared which you can assume can be several minutes. that why im so concerned because it is an expensive airgun (costed more than 500 pounds (approx. $1200)
with the scope. Thats why im asking if at any chance could be damaged.

 
At February 20, 2008 5:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

so it could be damaged according to the "probably not" in your previous post!

thnx

 
At February 20, 2008 5:29 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Yes. Leave it cocked for a month straight and the spring will lose power and begin to cant. Longer is worse.

B.B.

 
At February 20, 2008 5:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i mean for my occasion with the 30-50 pellets and the few minutes

 
At February 20, 2008 6:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i mean, if it is possible to be damaged for for my occasion with the 30-50 pellets and the few minutes

 
At February 21, 2008 7:32 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Multiply 30-50 pellets by a few minutes each and what do you get? That's your level of exposure.

B.B .

 
At May 11, 2008 8:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB

what is the foot pounds specification for hw 97 or how much should i expect from it (.177)

 
At May 11, 2008 9:05 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

HW 97,

If the HW 97 puts out 930 f.p.s. with a light .177 pellet, it gets 12.5-14.5 foot-pounds.

B.B.

 
At May 11, 2008 9:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

im talking about the fac version. Isnt it a bit low the 12.5 for a fac rifle? im looking for a more accurate estimate in order to compare my velocities

 
At May 11, 2008 10:31 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The numbers I gave you are based on the FAC gun. The non-FAC gun wouldn't even make 12 foot-pounds.

I don't have a 97 to test, so I'm giving you numbers based on the published velocity.

The Beeman HW 97 I owned never made 12 foot-pounds, so I have nothing to compare to.

B.B.

 
At June 29, 2008 11:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB

i checked my hw97k with a chrony and it can push a jsb exact 8.4grain with 810fps. the gun is new only 100 shots fired so far. is 810 fps normal for a not well broken gun for this kind of bullets? will it rise if i fire 1000 shots?

thnx

 
At June 29, 2008 11:20 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Your 97K may speed up a little, but only by 10-20 f.p.s. at the most.

If you talk in terms of energy instead of velocity, your rifle develops 12.24 foot-pounds with this pellet. In my experience, that's pretty common for a 97. It's the 77 that can go up to 18 foot-pounds, but the 97 has always hovered around 12 fp for me.

B.B.

 
At November 13, 2008 5:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB,

i recently bought a 97k which does around 12fpe. my rifle is FAC version. i visited jim maccari's site because im interested in installing an aftermarket kit and it specifically mentions that if the 97k is doing high 700s with low 800s (fps) installing a high power kit will not make a difference as there are probably sealing and barrel issues.

1) Is this the case?
2)How it can be treated if this is the case?
3) Could ballistol be used inside the barrel?

thanks

 
At November 14, 2008 8:57 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jim is right. The 97 that doesn't break 800 f.p.s. has a limited stroke. I have heard of people putting long-stroke pistons in these guns to get them up over 12 foot-pounds, but I have no experience doing it. Even at that, a 97 is never going to be as powerful as a TX200.

The best thing to do with your non-FAC rifle is to learn how it shoots and use it as it is. These rifles can be very devastating hunters, when the right shooter holds them.

Ballistol can safely be used inside the barrel.

B.B.

 
At November 14, 2008 9:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hi BB thnx for the answer.

1) What do you mean by limited stroke?
2)Are you saying that the gun is
underperforming and if it is how can
be treated to correct it as much as
possible? (Maybe barrel cleaning
lubricating etc). Because i purchased
it as a FAC rifle.
3)Tetragun oil can be also used for the
barrel isnt it?

thnx a million

 
At November 14, 2008 9:39 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

The piston stroke is shorter on an rifle that's set to shoot less than the UK legal limit of 12 foot-pounds. To shoot more powerfully, the piston must be exchanged for one with a longer stroke. Greater swept volume means more air is compressed.

Yes, Tetra Lube is okay, but no lubricant in the world will ever increase the velocity of your gun.

You were sold a legal-limit gun, not an FAC gun.

B.B.

 
At November 14, 2008 10:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thnx for the info BB,

So installing a tuning kit that includes a piston will help for that matter isnt it?

But i think that tuning kits like vmach do not inlude piston only spring and piston seal am i right?

thnx

 
At November 14, 2008 10:22 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

No tuneup kit can help the power of your rifle. You need a major rework from someone who knows what he is doing.

Try Paul Watts.

B.B.

 
At November 14, 2008 12:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thnx BB for your time,

one last thing, if it is to clean the barrel can you suggest a way of doing that as conventional brushes are not ideal.

thnx

 
At November 14, 2008 1:27 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Because it is very difficult to clean a rifle that has a sliding compression chamber like the 97, I don't recommend it. If you absolutely must, then find a very short brush and pull it through from the muzzle.

B.B.

 
At November 14, 2008 1:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thnx for all your comments. im trying to think how can i possibly be sold a non fac rifle. im saying this because i do not reside in UK, my country's airgun laws have no limitations on the power output of the gun, only the diameter of the bullet (only .177s are allowed). Taking this in mind the first occasion is what you mentioned in your answers towards my posts or there is something wrong with this gun.

thnx

 
At December 10, 2008 3:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

im trying to install a vmach kit on my 97k, and i can use an advise on how to degrease the parts what substance to use??

thnx

 
At December 10, 2008 3:52 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

I always use alcohol on rags and paper towels to degrease a rifle. It takes longer but is less aggressive than some other things.

For gosh sakes don't use acetone!

B.B.

 
At July 12, 2009 5:48 PM, Blogger Alvaro said...

Do you think that the 20 cal hw97k has enough power to hunt at long distances ? or a R9 and R1 in 20 cal are better choices ?

are this two acurate rifles for long shots ?

Thanks.

 
At July 12, 2009 7:32 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Alvaro,

Could you provide a little more information so we can better answer your question?

What is your definition of "long distances"? What are you planning on hunting?

kevin

 
At July 13, 2009 6:29 AM, Blogger Alvaro said...

Hi Kevin

55 yards, for hunt rabbits and large birds like a crow
i also think that a 22 cal Fenix 400 can do that job or not?

Thanks.

Alvaro
Viña del Mar
Chile.

 
At July 13, 2009 9:20 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Alvaro,

First, I would strongly encourage you to think about hunting with .22 caliber especially in the R1 and HW97. Both the R1 and Hw97 are big, powerful spring guns and are more efficient in .22 caliber. The ballistics are better in .22 and the pellet choices are more numerous in .22.

I don't know much about the Cometa Fenix 400 but have read where many think it's a rebadged RWS 94.

In my opinion, you're stretching the power limits of the R1 and HW97 to hunt large pests (rabbits & crows) at 55 yards. Both guns are capable of killing these pests WITH PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT. Head shot on a crow and behind the ear on a rabbit.

The question is, "Can you learn to consistently put a pellet into a dime size hole at 55 yards with either of these guns?" Both the R1 and HW97 have passionate followers that regularly use these guns for FT (in .177 caliber) and rave about accuracy. Because both guns are powerful springers they are hold sensitive. Learn the ARTILLERY HOLD (use the search box on the right to find an enormous amount of info on this critical technique).

Both guns require a break-in period to smooth out the firing cycle (around 1,000 pellets) and both benefit from a tune.

Personally, I chose an R1 over the HW97 because I read that it wasn't as hold sensitive as an HW97 and has almost unlimited options for tuning. B.B. (Tom Gaylord) wrote a 13 parts series on tuning an R1 and also wrote a book on the R1 (The Beeman R1-Supermagnum Air Rifle).

My R1 had already been detuned to make it a smoother shooter but that also makes it a less powerful hunter. Still have the gun and it's very accurate for a springer.

Remember, both these guns are heavy to carry in the field. R1 is 8.8 lbs. Hw97 is 9.2 lbs.

This is just my opinion and why. You may want to join the current active discussion amongst many airgunners, like you, asking and answering each others questions and ask your question(s) there. You can always access the current discussion by going here:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

Look forward to seeing you there!

kevin

 

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