Abusing your Condor
by Tom Gaylord
Before we get started on today's blog, I wanted to let you know that Pyramyd Air's latest email newsletter is out. It's all about the special promotions and giveaways from Crosman and Gamo. Check it out!
Now, on to today's blog!
B.B. let me have the blog again today, to finish the discussion I started on Monday. When we left off, I had just explained how to test your AirForce Condor to determine the correct fill pressure. We had a lot of phone calls about this issue at AirForce, but eventually the word got out.
It took several months to calm things down, but no sooner had we done that than the "inventors" went to work. One gentleman, who called himself Mr. Condor on the forums, installed an overweight hammer in his new rifle and proceeded to pound his rifle to pieces. He was giving lots of advice about how other owners could get more out of their rifles right up to the day he walked into our shop with his brown paper bag full of damaged Condor parts. I had to assemble it for him and install several new parts because that 6-month old airgun was all beat up. He paid for the work because he had disassembled the gun and voided the lifetime warranty, but he seemed to be happy.
Two weeks later, he was back in our shop - this time with his air tank that wasn't working. You could see that the top hat was mashed down flush with the top of the valve and had no more resiliency.
When I disassembled it, I found the valve had been destroyed by the repeated impact of an overly heavy hammer - just what Mr. Condor was telling everyone on the forums they should do to their rifles. I saved the guts from that ruined valve so I could share it with other airgunners as an example of what not to do!
This is what can happen when you take advice from the airgun chat forums. This is all supposed to be one single valve assembly, and the threaded portion is supposed to be attached to the valve stem stub sticking out of the brass insert. Notice the crushed stainless steel valve stem around the air hole.
Mr. Condor wasn't alone in ruining Condors, of course. He was just one of the ones who stood out by ruining his gun so quickly and completely. I remember another experimenter who wanted to shoot as fast as possible, so he cut a hole in his air tank and threaded the hole to accept a hose fitting from a helium tank. He then ran the gun on helium. He claimed he was shooting .22 caliber JSB Exact pellets at 1,500+ f.p.s. and that he was getting super groups at 200 yards.
Even if any of that were true, he still voided the warranty on his gun, subjected himself to unknown danger by putting a hole in the air tank and wound up with an airgun that had to be tethered to a helium tank! I don't know about you, but that's not why I got into airgunning. If you're going for the airgun land speed record, there are several testbed airguns owned by NASA that are used to simulate micrometeor strikes on space vehicles. They shoot into a vacuum, as I understand it, and achieve velocities above 5,000 f.p.s.
As for me, I like shooting quiet, accurate guns.
posted by B.B. Pelletier @ 4:30 AM
116 comments
116 Comments:
A good warning here. I frequently visit http://www.talonownersgroup.com/ and have found it to be a mostly useful site. Like ALL internet sites, take what you read with a grain of salt. Opinions will vary and before I do any work on my springers or my Talon I do LOTS of research.
Ture some of the suggested mods will ruin your warranty, but there are also some good tips on getting the maximum performance out of the stock rifles.
It's a garden of ideas on the world wide web. You just have to do some careful weeding.
I gues that makes talon tunes a fake. www.talontunes.com
A 65 grams hybrid hammer and a heavier mainspring can do such damage to the valve stem of an AirForce Condor air rifle?I'm thinking to purchase such a hybrid hammer(made from high-teck plastic and with brass weight assembled) but now I'm not so sure about it.Can anyone give me an advice???
As the owner and operator of the Talon Owners Group, I feel I have to respond to this article.
There is no user listed as Mr. Condor on my forum, I know cause I admin my site and audited the user list recently.
As far as the mods go, I would like to state the you cannot make apple sauce without crushing apples. Sure some guys have ruined their guns, but it was through ignorance that they did this. They did not read all the caveats and cautions fully, but proceeded full steam ahead with slapping in bolt on parts, without looking at the big picture.
Keep in mind that a lot of these mods were tried because the Air Force series of products over promised and under delivered. In order to get the product up to promised standards modifications were needed, and still need to be done.
The example cited in the blog entry is an extreme example and shows that the user who did his own mods was out of his depth.
Yes, some people spout off about what they know(or do not know). Just as some manufacturers spout claims for their products that are blatantly false.
Andrew McFarland
TOG Moderator
www.talonownersgroup.com
A 65 grams hybrid hammer and a heavier mainspring can do such damage to the valve stem of an AirForce Condor air rifle?I'm thinking to purchase such a hybrid hammer(made from high-teck plastic and with brass weight assembled) but now I'm not so sure about it.Can anyone give me an advice???
Tom didn't say that Mr. Condor was on the TOG forum specifically. He said, "One gentleman, who called himself Mr. Condor on the forums..."
I know he did not explicitly mention the TOG. I just wanted to get that point out there that I did not have a user registered by that name.
Andrew
Tom,
Thank you for the reminder that airgun modding voids the warranty, can cause damage to the gun and be dangerous (even fatal)!
I have modified the three airguns I have, but stick to standard parts where possible. For example, I used Crosman parts for all my mods to Crosman guns. One of the things I like about Crosman is that many of their parts are interchangeable between similar models.
I wonder about the safety of some parts available on the web such as modified valves for Crosman 22xx guns. It seems like cutting off part of threaded sections and thinning metal is asking for trouble since those things give strength to the part. The strength of the modified part can't be calculated unless you know the specific alloy, etc. You have to trust the person who made it, but did they do those calculations?
The thing I like about modding is that after doing careful research, doing the modification and making it work, you learn a lot about how an airgun works. On the other hand, I don't think I would risk modifying something that I spent $600 on!
Why don't folks leave well-enough alone?
I have done quite a bit of gunsmithing over the years and if my eyes weren't so bad would still be doing it. I have never done any airgunsmithing because its a different game. It is easy to take something apart, think "that makes sense, if a little is good then lots will be better". The flow mechanics of air needs to be understood as well as metalurgy of materials worked with. It isn't for shade tree mechanics.
If people, "Left well-enough alone", we wouldn't have things like running water and electricity, let alone that little computer you're typing on. Necessity may be the mother of invention, but modification and improvement is the father of progress.
Nuglor
"As for me, I like shooting quiet, accurate guns."
I didn't think the Condor was all that quiet (and please don't say, turn the power down and it is, because then why get a Condor over the SS)
Nuglor - YES !!!
As a prospective Condor purchaser, I'd like to hear from more Air Force airgun owners about that previous comment by Mr. McFarland that "Air Force over promised and under delivered." Is that still happening, or was that just a trend a while back that has since been corrected ? The recent reviews I've read of their rifles on this site left me the impression they delivered on their promised performance quite well.
Please clarify "leave well-enough alone". It can be taken several ways.
The standard hammer weight is 50 grams foar an Air Force Condor so a 65 grams hybrid hammer will and a heavier mainspring will do the trick and improve your airgun.What happened to that fellow who ruined his valve stem is that he used a too heavy hammer(100grams-150grams, I think) so there's limit for everything.
I have a Condor that has been completely "ruined." It has had the valve replaced with a home made design, a different hammer installed, and the barrel replaced with a .308 barrel. )Please don't ask about the mods, I bought it modded.) I would not be a Condor owner had someone not decided to "ruin" his gun. I'm sure not all the experiments worked out fine but the gun is now a fun gun to shoot that has power comenserate with the noise it makes. After I got the gun, the most striking thing I noticed was how basic the design is and how many compromises there are in the gun and for the user. I'm not at all surprised that folks mod them. Valve designs that come with 15% variability, bottles that need to be unscrewed, and some by my consideration flimsy parts. I enjoy my ruined Condor from time to time but I couldn't reccomend someone buying a stock Condor.
Well-enough-alone means (to me) that the condor is a great gun as it is. Why modify it and take the (high) risk of doing irreparable damage,often beyond fixing. It certainly has all the power and accuracy that anyone could ever seek in a quality air rifle.I only "tinker" when something is broke!
Yes, the Condor is a good bargain for its price-point, but some of that bargain comes at the cost of lesser tolerances. As a Member of the TOG (hi Andrew) I'm privy to reading how people have bought a Condor expecting to fill it to 3000psi (as the Manufacturer says to fill it to) only for it to pop rather than bang. I've also seen how people have found the safety to be junk, the barrel to not be straight in the frame, the bushings to not be concentric, the scoperail to be poor, the trigger to be sub-par, the fit and finishings to be straight from Shanghai and 101 other things that I could list. I have then seen people on the TOG offer advice and knowledge that have resolved all of these issues. In my humble opinion, if AirForce spent a little more time and money on improving their product and less time harping on that the rifle is "Made in the USA" it'd be a far better product, and people would indeed "leave well enough alone" except for those that like to push the envelope and effectively do the research for AirForce.
- TeflonTron
Speaking of the safety, My first experience with an Airforce product had to do with a Brand New Talon SS misfiring upon release of the safety...No problems since then, but if it weren't for safe gun handling practices I would have "shot my eye out" so to speak...Kinda disappointing though when you spend all that money and have to send a new gun in for repair..
Addressing Leon-Wolcott's concern as a prospective AF purchaser. Some of the over-promise/under-deliver that has been talked about are some that many people can live with. What you have to understand is that the AF rifles have incredible potential, and for someone like me who went from a cheapo less than $100 springer to a PCP with a Lothar Walther barrel, I have to say I couldn't have told you where the under-delivered part was. But as you keep shooting, you learn the quirks of your gun, and if you can address them, why not? Mr Gaylord likes quiet and accurate guns, and I agree wholeheartedly, but I think there is some misunderstanding of what these modifications do. The inherent idea behind many of the modifications is not the power game that is implied in this blog (although there are exceptions of course). It's consistency, leading to better precision. A hammer modification can help with consistency in opening the valve. A trigger tune gives you a cleaner break. Many of these "inventors" are shooters just as enthusiastic as Mr. Gaylord, and are used to firing rifles twice as expensive or more than a Condor, so these mods aren't just blatant attempts to abuse the gun, but a chance to really polish a gun that has so much more potential.
B.B.--will you be doing any testing on the rws 460mag when it comes out--the power levels being put out by rws don't come near what is listed on the Diana web site--Does rws overstate the velocities on all there models as a sales ploy, and if so won't the shooters finally get fed up with this hype and start to boycot there products. It would seem tthat a class action suit could be brought against them for false advertising -if they have a good product why cheese it up ?
there would be no need for repair or mods if these guns even remotely performed and actually worked as advertised, but even saying "as advertised" is wrong.
"I like shooting quiet, accurate guns." - i am sure you do...
I dont buy from those who make statistics up. My grandfather once said "Liers figure figures lie". Gamo is Notorious for this. 200 fps, tamato toomato. No there is a huge diferance. The raptor pellet is also a joke. It is 5 grains. It doesent shoot at a higher velocity because of its "24 gold jacket" Its the same as any other 5 grain light weight. To fast for acuracy, less powe, less accuracy. My favorite thing in an air gun is acuracy.
The gided pellit. Gold on the outside crap on the inside.
is there any chance of damaging the talon tank with a stock condor frame? I bought a condor with a talon tank from Pyramidair on the advice of this blog. Basically, I bought a stock condor with an extra talon tank then sold the stock condor tank. Will the hammer weight and spring in the condor damage the talon tank?
well, i finally figured out how to unscrew my objective lens. it was simple- a rubber washer wedged between the lens and another locking ring was what confused me. i thought it was metal. i proceeded to turn it out (a TON- i wanted it to be parallax free at less than 10 meters from 50 yards), and now i have a scope which focuses down to 5 meters at 7 power. it still needs fine-tuning, but i am very happy with the results so far.
of course, it is non fuctional at longer ranges, however at $30 a scope i can simply buy a second one
and mount it when i get the chance to get out. just a little adjustment that ruined the scope for most people, but made an excellent indoor paper-puncher for me. maybe some mods cripple some other unneeded functions, but if it can improve where its needed (and without too much increased wear), i say go for it! its customization!
Sorry meant gilded pellet. sorry to be so cruel gamo
No, the amount of air let through is the only differance. The talon tank will be just as accepting of the condors heavy hammer. i own a condor but you should have goten a talon ss if you were just gettn-rid of the hi flow.
I do think that Talon's safety could be improved.
the safety could most definently be improve. Mine is loose just like on all af rifles. If it dident go to the side every time i try to push it forward it would be easier to operate with my trigger finger. they need to lighten the trigger to.
I have a Condor and it worked good for 2 days. On day 3 it did not want to shoot at all. The valve in the tank got so hard the pellets would not exit the barrel. When that happens you regret bying the gun! Believe me. I fixed the valve(regulation and...LOCTITE PLEASE!!!),changed the distance between the barrel bushings,as the end of the barrel would flex if you push it. Fixed the skinny end of the barrel that was not straight, fixed the safe which could easily make a blister in your finger, fixed the trigger that was rocking from side to side 1/4 inch. Tons of wok!!!
To better describe the rifle I would say it was a good project somebody started but DID NOT FINISH. Lots of potential but lacks a lot.
Forums are a great source of information, but as a general rule use your HEAD first and use your hands only afer a good research.
Copillas.
i know how it is. I broke my gun and needed to replace some parts. Home fix. I was even more frustrated when my pump broke beyond repair. I have a scuba tank set up to fill it but the scuba tank was only charged to 2000 psi. It hardley got it out the barrel. the guns are cheap but the accesories are not. When the gun is broken the 500$ lights and lasers now serve no purpose.Much less the cost of the scope. uuuuuuurrrrrrrrr!!!. but the gun is a blast when it works. Thankfuly i have so british and keorean pcp's that work. The condor is a great gun. My great britten theoben costin 4 times the price of the condor is no more acurate. Except for the -/+ match trigger.
The condor can have several problems.
My condor has lots of mods. (none of which have done anything to hurt the gun) I had the safety taken out. Just leave the gun uncocked untill you need to shoot it. Safety is junk. Trigger mod done so its very crisp and light. .25 barrel that adds lots of power. Don't have a heavier hammer, I was fortunate enough to get a gun that didn't need any valve work to fill to 3000 psi. (FYI, with an extra heavy hammer, talontunes 110gr for example, set your powerwheel to the lowest setting. That is the general reccomendation so it doesn't cause any problems) Shroud so the gun is as quiet as an SS. All of my mods have done nothing but improve the gun.
If your looking for good advice to improve an airforce rifle. Go to talonownersgroup.com Best information your going to get. Do make sure you read all about a mod though, so you don't just break the gun. (I.E. if you do a trigger mod with the trigger components in the gun, you will probably break part of the trigger and you really screwed yourself over). If you can follow instructions, you can greatly improve these rifles.
Hi andrew. :D
Mr Gaylord,
As someone who claims to be an authority on "Airforce Products", maybe you can tell all of us "Inventors" when Airforce is going to get with the rest of the program and produce something NEW like a multishot, regulated product?, like other Manufacturers are doing NOW!
Or maybe they are waitng for their R&D Department(TOG) to come up with it first...
NA
I am would also like to hear about the futre products of this great company.
mr-lama, what is the pull on the triger of your custom 25 cal gun. Is talon tunes lagitament?
Hello,
This is for B.B.and is off topic. I just wanted to relate my experience with Pyramyd Air relative to a purchase that I made last month. I had bought a Drulov DU-10 pistol which unfortunately, came without the piercing cap for CO2 cartridges. After talking to Boris over the phone, he sent me a cap along with a tin of pellets of the correct size for the gun. The cap, however, was the wrong one and wouldn't pierce the cartridge. So
I phoned again and got into contact with "Paul", related my dilemma to him, and he assured me that he would get together with Boris and get me the correct piercing cap. I sent the incorrect one back, and soon received the right cap from the company. My hat is off to Paul and Boris (I'm sorry that I don't know either of their last names) for such prompt and very satisfactory action. By the way, this air pistol is a dream to shoot! It is more accurate than any .22 rimfire pistol that I have owned (save maybe, for a High Standard Trophy that I had in the past), and semi-auto action in an air pistol is something new for me. The trigger couldn't be better and the gun is very comfortable in my hand. I just do not understand (beyond price consideration) why this air pistol is not more popular. Actually, I have to retract that last statement; in truth, this pistol is CHEAP in price for what you are getting. I own several air pistols from Umarex, and while they are good, they don't can't touch the Drulov for accuracy , shooting comfort, or even quality of build. Yes, it is not a 10 meter target pistol,and does not have all the trigger adjustments that such a pistol would have, but I feel that it is good enough to improve a person's skill to the point that they might be able to take advantage of a 10 meter pistols' accuracy in time. Besides, it comes close to that level of accuracy anyway. And it is a blast to shoot (pun fully intended!).
Curtis
Curtis,
I've been wondering how your Drulov was working out. Glad to hear you are satisfied. The semi-auto feature may entice me to purchase one. Is pellet feeding reliable? Are you using bulk CO2 or 12g bulbs? Are the any negative things to consider? BTW, I'll never let my High Standard Trophy get away. :)
Twinmaster owner
Hello Anonymous,
The pellet feeding has been very reliable with the JSB pellets that Boris sent. I will test with others and post the results here. So far, I have used only CO2 bulbs, but that is because I cannot (at present) get one of the "Cooper T" adapters that are needed to adapt the bulk fill to the Drulov's bulk fill fitting's threads (some sort of tragedy befell the man who makes these things, according to a tech at Pyramyd Air, and the poor fellow is now paralyzed from the neck down). Pyramid is trying to find a firm to make the "Cooper T" fittings. I am sure that this glitch will be resolved, and that is the only "negative thing" that I could think of.
You are wise never to have let your HS Trophy go. For me, that was more than 20 years ago, and back then the grass always seemed greener...but, that is NOT the worst mistake that I ever made with trading firearms. I am still sorry that I traded my Smith and Wesson model 52 "Master" (fired 38 special wadcutters and fed them flawlessly!) for a custom "compensated" .45 cal. Colt pistol. The Colt is a great shooter, but they don't make the Model 52 and haven't for years. And the last time that I saw a used one for sale on the Net, it listed for a whopping $1500.00; almost 3 times what I paid for mine back then. I'm older now and not so foolish, but I don't get out to the range nearly as often as I used to, so air guns are a nice substitute for me-I can shoot in my basement.
Curtis
I'm not sure the exact pull on my trigger. Don't have a scale to measure it.
I didn't get mine worked on through talontunes, but it's the exact same. My barrel is from talon tunes. He is absolutely legit. He does some great work. I highly reccomend him.
Standard Talon/Talon SS tank,
No, the Condor powerplant will not damage the standard rifle tank's valve. The return spring on the standard tank is actually heavier than the Condor return spring, so it makes up for most of the smaller surface area on the reservoir side of the standard valve.
Tom Gaylord
Scott,
I will test the Diana 460 Magnum when it becomes available. However, I have not found RWS's claim to be that far off. I find the .177 34 to shoot in the low to mid-900s, so that's a little light, but the .177 48s and 52s I have tested have all made 1100 f.p.s. with light lead pellets.
I find Diana claims to be pretty close to the truth. However, I do intend to test tjhe 460 Magnum. I don't care that it shoots fast, but how accurate it is with the heavy pellets I'll have to use to slow it down enough to get any accuracy.
B.B.
Thanks B.B.--that may well be my next gun
Tom,
Can you tell me why you addressed a potential sale (Standard Talon/Talon SS tank post), but failed to address any of the other comments, questions or concerns?
It is certainly dis-heartening to see that once again, the end user is getting the shaft. Not only from poor QC, but now from being discounted as having unfounded concerns.
The Condor as shipped from the factory is a POS. No ifs ands or buts about it. The total lack of any kind of consistency in the manufacturing of the product is indicative of the focus on money and not customer satisfaction.
Your singular response to a potential buyer drives that point home once again.
Andrew McFarland
Owner/Operator
Talon Owners Group
http://www.TalonOwnersGroup.com
My first condor, would start at 300 fps and move up 30 fps pr shot until it hit about 1180 fps with kodiacs then I was down again from there...impossible rifle to hit anything with, AF responded my rifle was fine ? right it was....sold it
2 years in 2005 later returned to the condor in hopes the kinks had been worked out, bought it brand new, this one worked although far from powerful max of 1000fps with kodiacs...
Then bought a used one and started modding it to .308 and .457 word spread and people started asking me if i could fix their condor
Today nearly 2 years later I have fixed about 20 condors for different people, new and old models...most complaining about something that turned out to be the valve.
Mostly the fault was it would only fire at low pressure at about 2500 psi, and then it would be inconsistent a spread over 20 shots of 300+ fps, some had valves that would not pass the 55 fpe mark...hardly the most powerful rifle in production as the add says, and the Koreans can bet that at half the price
I have seen frames with internal diameter ranging from .995 to 1.008", where the bottle collar would not be able to keep the bottle in the frame tight as it was too small and thus leaving the bottle so it could move up and down, hammers able to vibrate as the frame was too big, one even had a frame so tight that removing the barrel proved to be difficult, hammer would only just fit in there…and this is not just old rifles…I saw brand new ones too from big sellers like pyramidair.
My advice is to stay clear of the condor, get a Korean if power is your desire...if you take 10 condor bottles not 2 will perform alike! Get the SS and a 24" barrel if you want a rifle with power, the condor valve/bottle is most likely only going to leave you frustrated! The regular talon bottle with the smaller valve works much better.
Sorry for bad grammar/spelling ...English is not my first language
I bought a spare Condor tank from pyramidair last summer, for my condor which has been great but like mentioned never got the performance advertised, but it is accurate and powerful, this new tank has been nothing but problems. I treat it just like my other tank and fill to 3000 psi and the pellet just rolls out of the barrel not till the bottle is at 1900 psi does it make descent power of about 61 fpe with EJ pellets, I talked to AF and they said to send it back. 4 weeks later I had a package and a tank that was doing the exact same thing, they had not fixed a thing.
I called them yet again, they apologized and told me to return it once more, this time I got a different tank back, it is slightly better but has less shots pr fill and does not work above 2700 psi, not nearly as good as my original tank. By this time it was to late to ship it back to pyra for a refund, and AF told me all was good, so I ended up selling it as it was useless to me
these would be great rifles if you could swap tanks out and not have to worry, but that is sooooooo not the case
i have had an ss for years great rifle, then i bought a condor had it for 3 days and returned it
I bought a Condor in 2003. I didn't realize I had a problem until I bought a Chrony. Turns out my "1250 fps rifle" was only shooting 800 fps with the lightest .22 pellets and the power wheel didnt work (800 fps no matter what setting on wheel). First I was told my Chrony was wrong. Then when I got a second chrony they told me maybe my pumps guage was wrong and I was accidentally over filling. After trying all kinds of pressures from 2000 to 3000psi (according to my "faulty gauge") and still getting no more than 800 fps they finally told me to send the gun to them (at my cost... 2 month old gun... nice). I decided to buy another condor tank in the hope I just had a problematic tank so I could just return the tank and not the whole gun. With the new tank I still couldnt get more than 800 fps, but not the power wheel worked and would give me a choice of 400 to 800 fps. So I sent the gun in and it was repaired under warranty (I hadn't done any mods..). They wouldnt tell me what they did or what the problem was and the gun still wouldn't shoot more 1100 fps with CP's even tho it is supposed to reach 1250+ with those. But I wasn't that bothered.
The Moral of the story is.. No matter what you do, Mr Gaylord and the techs at AF will blame you, then blame your other equipment long before they admit theres a problem with the gun. Then when you do send it back they spend ages going over it with a fine comb looking for the slightest sign that you altered anything.
I know someone who had the same problem as me, but because he drilled a tiny hole in his frame for an over travel adjustment screw (because the triggers SUCK as they come from AF... Side to side play, no positive stop, creep.. worse than any chinese trigger) they charged him for the repair to his VALVE..... The Original Talon SS used to actually come with that adjustment screw, but they stopped. I guess it was too expensive and they wanted to cut costs...... But don't dare do it yourself or your warranty is voided, even if its done by a professional gunsmith or machinist.
I got sick of the crappy preformance and lack of power of the .22 LW barrel and the cheap and loose PLASTIC barrel bushings (yes.. the barrel is attached to the gun with PLASTIC) so machined my own barrel, crowned it and made metal bushings. I now have a VERY accurate .25 cal shooting 86 fpe on a 3000 psi fill giving me 20 good shots before I dip below 78 fpe. That was my first PCP and my first adult Air Rifle over 12 fpe and I managed to make it shoot better.. Why the heck cant AF do the same....
Look, the condors cheap, but you get more than you pay for. I own some 2200 $ air guns, they shoot no better. They just have lighter triggers and wood stocks. I think that air force should me out with a 1000 $ gun and do it right. I get advertised velocities and groups but it does not have the feeling of a more expensive gun. If air force can give you a good gun for 500 $ imagine what they could do with a much more expensive gun. No harm in having that as a option. Its not like that would mean you couldent make cheaper guns. I do not want wood stocks!!! I just want performance. Is a match trigger and a functional safety to much to ask for. And make every gun the same. They need the same power spring and the same wight hammer in each gun. Toyota has grown faster than anybody else and they have the lexus (high quality) and the big seller (toyota). Its best to offer both. You could offer the guns that are out now and a more expensive alternative. From what i have seen on this blog, people would go for a quility un if it were an option.
Look, the condors cheap, but you get more than you pay for.
I beg to differ. Getting a gun that does not function even close to the advertised spec is not getting more than you pay for.
If you truly do own a 2200 dollar air gun, you'd realize that they are generally regulated and have some repeatablilty of settings from gun to gun. It is not a case of just having "lighter triggers and wood stocks" What kind of asinine statement is that?
Are your results confirmed with a chrony? You get advertised performance and groups with a 3k psi fill? Wow, you must be the ONLY person I have EVER heard that got that without having to mod their rifle somehow.
The point is, Airforce is NOT giving you good gun for your 500 smackeroos. IT is giving you a CHANCE to GET a good gun, think of it as a lottery.
I would suggest that you spend more time shooting your higher end rifles so you can see the difference between a regulated and non-regulated rifle. I would also suggest that you take a good long look at the manufacturing quality that goes into your 2200 dollar guns. The tolerances are MUCH higher, and there fore more time is taken in the manufacturing process to get it right the first time.
All in all, your post is a non-starter and not believable in light of the experience I and MANY others have had.
I would like to think you are a troll, however I think you're just ignorant, or a shill of sorts(for what reason, I cannot fathom).
Andrew McFarland
Owner/Operator
www.talonownersgroup.com
The gun i own is a theoben. It is about 2200 dollars after the pump and extra tank + scope. The condor performs just as well / no joke.
the condor has 5 good shots the theoben gets 200. The theoben is a superior gun that serves more purposes. Mybe i won the lotto on my condor?
i also have a career 707, i left it open sight. Thats my close range gun. The threoben is my main hunting gun. The condor makes a great long range gun. does it upset you that i think the condor is a good gun. ignorants a strong word. i would hate to upset a respectable man like yourself.
Look, the condors cheap, but you get more than you pay for.
Man what an overstatement. This is how I'll knock you down. Let’s not talk about you supposed $2200 gun, let’s talk about a $500 gun. Air Arms S200B. I purchased one for my daughter for Field Target. To say it outperforms the Airforce guns in everything except power is an understatement. The fit, the finish and everything else are superb, $80 more and you get multishot. Also the Sumatra, talk about a great rifle. For $800 you get Air Arms S410ERB or the S410 take down. For $1000 you get the HW100, this gun is light years ahead of Airforce in EVERYTHING. I believe Airforce can build a good rifle, they just don’t want to. My Talon SS is in the closet with its shifting POI and I just don’t care, you know why, there’s better guns for the same price or a little more.
I have always liked the Air Arms S410ERB. the sumatra is not as good as my career. There is a much more of a precision feel to the theoben but i still like the condor just as much for the money.
Your correct on a few thing Jr.. The condors trigger is way to hard to pull. The safety is hard to operate. Maybe not all the guns are the same. All i know is that mine works well.
No offense, but a Condor is not in the same league as a Theoben... the Theoben is regulated, condor is not. The theoben is multi shot, the condor is not.
I'd like to see you use a second bottle with your condor like you do with your theoben.
I agree on the career, that is a great gun. I got the chance to shoot a .25 carbine with open sights and it was fantastic(Thanks Nigel).
The Talon/Talon SS is a MUCH superior product to the Condor. Although it is not as powerful stock, it is easily modified to get more ompf.
Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Let's keep it at that.
Andrew
Andrew
ok,
you sound like you know your stuff.
what would you suggest, an air arms 410 erb or a logun domiator. throw in anythig that you would chose over them. all i was saying is that the theoben is not 5 times as good. I would say 2.5 x as good. they are inan entirly different class. i have not changed my mind on anything, call me thick headed. i probibly am. not what the test said but still.
5 x price 5 x good = no
thats all im insisting.
i have got .4 inch groups at 45 yards with the theoben, not once with the condor, havent shot it as much. i think it can because the typical groups are the same. i know how it sounds / writes .
No experience with the Dominator, but the 410e/erb is an overly long gun. Like a frigging musket. Forget about walking through bush with it.
Andrew
Ok, i am looking for a hunting riffle so thats no good. i have everything i need for the air guns but i almost want to fill a gap. i can do anything with the guns i have currently but. (the go to gun). i have no experiance with anything but pcp. mised a couple steps. The theoben was my first gun. I had shot fire arms years before that so i was thinking thats what a gun cost. wow air guns are less costly. I got it at a gun store called british sporting arms. anyway, are sprigers any good. Is that somthing i should stay out of if im into pcps? I saw the rws 460 that is generating tons o talk. i have heard that rws was the best air gun company that is not in the high end section. I dont want to buy an expensive springer, if somones going to do that why wouldent they buy a pcp?
IT is giving you a CHANCE to GET a good gun, think of it as a lottery.
so friggin true...
I will NEVER buy an AF product again, IMHO they are crap, and will blame the consumer before anything made in the USA...uhmm yeah i see why the US car industry is having problems....i have seen chinese airrifles with better quality.
Airforce get your tsuff together you have a great product if you just got your quality control together and stopped blaiming us the users
theres a reason theres such a big modding crowd for the airforce rifles
THEY NEED IT PERFORM LIKE PROMISED
sounds like someone posting here still have stocks in the company over and out
Cygnus X - TOG
no i have never even considered in investing in the toyota company.
No idea on springers or any other types of power plants. I have only shot PCP rifles.
Andrew
theres somthin we have in common, i will stay away then if im ot the only one. why downgrade when you can upgrade
I, too, too have a Condor that came from the factory way off specs. Even filling to 2600psi resulted in about 12-14 soft shots until it finally kicked in.
Had a fellow do some work to it, not even adding special parts, just polishing up the existing internals and adjusting the tophat correctly and now.... 3000psi, 25 or so shots very consistent at over 65fpe.
Had two Talons as well, one performed flawlessly out of the box, but I sold it to fund another project. The other one needed some work to perform properly.
There is just entirely too much variance in performance of these guns. Sure, I love my AF guns, but only after they have been tinkered with and modded. Prior to that.... not so much. When I first got the Condor and noticed the soft shots, I called AF, who advised me to send it back. I was then told that my pump gauge was off.... hmmm Odd that the pump gauge worked well enough for my other PCP's...
Gun came back in no better shape than I sent it.
Just be aware that the likelihood of having to do some work to your AF gun, Condor especially, is pretty high. Sure, it can be fun modding, but a stable platform to mod from at the start would be nice.
Rob3dr
Hey bb,
do a comparison on the CAREER III 707 by ShinSung and the condor. The two guns share some similar chericteristics. Power adj, super power, and when people buy one of them it is often for the same reason as when somone buys the other gun. I have both guns but would like to hear what you think. thank you, i read all of your reports.
anonymous (unsigned post) said... "Blah, blah blah..."
anonymous (unsigned post) said... "Yes, yes, yes..."
anonymous (unsigned post) said... "No, no, no..."
anonymous (unsigned post) said... "Neener, neener, neener..."
anonymous (unsigned post) said... "Wah, wah, wah..." all the way home.
anonymous (Andrew McFarland; Owner/Operator; www.talonownersgroup.com) said... "I would like to think you are a troll, however I think you're just ignorant, or a shill of sorts(for what reason, I cannot fathom)."
I briefly checked out TOG, Andrew, and couldn't help but notice how many forum categories, including the "General" forum, require registration just to *read* the posts.
After trying to read and make sense from the flood of anonymous/unsigned posts to Pyramyd Air Report, brought on by Tom's honest attempt at being helpful, I can guess why so many TOG forum categories are is on 'lock down.'
Cheers,
GH
GadgetHead,
I was just passing through and I have to say thanks to you.
I don't remember what forum Mr. Condor posted on, so I'm sure Andrew is right about the TOG not being involved. My remarks were perhaps a bit too broad in that respect. Unfortunately besides keeping the broken valve parts for several years, I guess I forgot to also retain the police blotter.
I know this issue of Condor fill pressures is a real sore point for some airgunners. But despite what the ultimate pressure is, all guns give similar results. Some just do it at a lower starting point. I thought people would like to know that.
Tom
My Condor works just like it supposed to. Thanks to TOG! The Air Force makes crap, unless you tinker with it and make it work right.
Curtis,
Thanks for your feedback on the Drulov pistol.
I will relay it to both Paul and Boris.
B.B.
On buying a condor is like getting a lottery ticket.. I disagree, in the lottery you have a chance at winning. If it weren't for the TOG and anthony266, my condor would be wrapped around a tree. Air Force and QC go together like Army and Intelligence. Thanx to the TOG and some more $, I NOW have the rifle that air force (no caps) advertises.
Tom Gaylord said... "I was just passing through and I have to say thanks to you... "
Hi Tom,
It's nice of you to say so. Thanks for stopping by!
As our good neighbors across the pond sometimes say, "Bit of a sticky wicket, what?"
Cheers,
GH
anonymous (Andrew) said... "...Now be a good little troll and crawl back under your bridge, the grown ups are talking..."
Gee whiz "Andrew!" Don't patronize me. And, get a grip on yourself.
Anyone can sign an anonymous post with any name they like. Doesn't make it factual/true, does it?
Exactly what did I write which makes you think you need to be insulting... to resort to name calling?
If you really are Andrew McFarland, Owner/Operator www.talonownersgroup.com, is that the kind of impression you want to make 'here' Andrew? Do you want the regulars 'here' to think you incapable of rational, reasonable and civilized discourse?
Cheers,
GH
GH you are asking?
-- Exactly what did I write which makes you think you need to be insulting...
Well I think the answer is pretty clear. You said to Andrew:
-- I would like to think you are a troll, however I think you're just ignorant, or a shill of sorts(for what reason, I cannot fathom)."
GH, You don't own a Condor but you are being really nice to Gaylord who only answered the post of a prospective buyer and yours? I sounds as if you two had investments together in AF.
Bottom line TOG is a great source of info and AF should be thankful that people go there and fix the rifle's many ploblems.
B.B. This is a great blog. YOU do a great job. Keep it up!
Copillas.
Tom I have to disagree with you, as not all Condors perform the same, or even close to it, no matter what their individual preferences for psi. That is simply not true. Airforce tried to latch onto the coat-tails of the Koreans by making a rifle with huge power, but in doing so they sacrified what makes the Korean rifles so nice: accurate and easy to live with. Moreover, the valve on the Condor is too large for its own good when combined with the rest of the rifle's parts. It is a crying shame that this is the case, as the Condor could (and can) be a beautiful rifle, but a lot of casual owners are frustrated that they have to approach a Forum such as the TOG in order to undrstand their rifle, and understand what is needed to make it better.
-TeflonTron
i am the guy that was conflicting with andrew, shot a robin at 50 y open sights - career
Huh? I don't recall a conflict over shooting a robin. You do know they are song birds, correct? The ones with teh red breast are not ripe yet anyways ;-)
sorry, i was just sayin who i am. then saying that i shot a robin with my career 707. I guess they are song birds anyway. No there was no conflict about robins.
good thing i am anonymous if they are. They are.
LOL, I am confused even more now.
I thought we were discussing the lack of quality control at AF?
Tom,
The fill pressures are not the only issue. Plastic(derlin) barrel bushings, burrs on edges, differing sizes of frames, bottle collars not fitting correctly, poorly crowned barrels, power wheels that do nothing, tophats that jam open, do I need ot keep going? I think you get the idea.
There are a whole raft of issues with the Condor. I have seen a number of different AF products in person now, and I can verify that the issues listed above are fact. The fact that they have also been documented, not only on my site, but the yellow, ss, and other forums indicates that there is a serious issue at hand that needs to be addressed and remedied. Failing to do so would lead to a gradual decline in sales as the word gets out(more than it has already).
I am sorry that the product quality has dropped so far. I will not go into the lack of innovation and progress, that is a whole other can of worms.
Andrew
Andrew,
I get the idea that you have issues with AirForce.
Each of your complaints has an answer.
Top hats that stick open have always been due to improper seating of the pellet. I have demonstrated to customers how an improperly loaded pellet can exhaust an air tank in one shot, which is why we addressed this issue in the video. This will happen with all PCPs, but most other PCPs use a loading probe that seats the pellet the same depth every time. AirForce chose to allow the shooter to select the seating depth by not using a probe, and they supplied the instructions for how to load the gun correctly. Some shooters disregard those instructions. If they don't seat deeply, the pellet will flare around the breech, lock in place and create backpressure that will hold the valve open.
What's wrong with Delrin bushings? I have them on my early SS and they work perfectly.
Poorly crowned barrels is a complaint I haven't heard until you brought it up. In my three years of testing customer complaints on accuracy, I found only one Lothar Walther barrel that was inaccurate, and it lacked a proper choke. The other customer barrels I checked were dirty. After cleaning with JB Non Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound, they performed to spec. I always sent back a signed, dated target that I shot with the customer's gun after cleaning the barrel.
Your list goes on to talk about many other issues you have with AirForce guns. If that is the case, why bother with them? I would move on to a different brand of gun if I were you.
There are thousands of satisfied AirForce customers in the U.S. and abroad, and their airguns outsell all other brands by a large margin. Whenever I take one of their guns out of the box it works as advertised. But there are a few shooters who seem to be spring-loaded for trouble with the gun. They read the forums and do things to their rifles with no thought to what they might be doing. Or perhaps they really do believe they know better than the factory, and need to "fix" what isn't broken.
I handled returns at AirForce for three years, and yes, there were some guns with problems. I fixed about half of these problems over the phone, by referring the customer to the owner's manual, where they were instructed to do something a certain way and were not doing it that way. The other guns came in and I fixed whatever problem there was.
In my time repairing AirForce guns, I saw that many of the problems customers had were caused by unauthorized modifications and "repairs". These were usually traced back to some forum discussion, where the flavor of the month was expounded as the way to "fix" your gun! No forum I ever read ever retracted their advice when it clearly ruined rifles, but the AirForce factory always took in their rifles and made repairs (unless the rifle was so hacked up that it was impossible to repair).
And AirForce is now selling many more air rifles than ever before. So, Andrew, it seems that more and more shooters are liking what they find with AirForce.
Yes, there is a lot of talk on all the forums about AirForce airguns. I have been reading the Talon Owner's Group in the past several days and note that several posters are talking about "baiting" me with questions. Instead of that, they might just try enjoying their airguns as they were designed. The guns would function fine if they would just shoot them as they were built.
Thousands of American airgunners love AirForce airguns, Yet the few who call themselves the "owner's group" are the most outspoken critics. And this criticism seems not to be aimed at producing a better product, but at slamming the product at all cost. It makes me wonder what your goals really are.
Tom Gaylord
Tom Gaylord,
I am glad to see you showing honesty here.
Yes, it really makes me wonder what their goals really are as well. I think they are just miserable people that aren't satisfied with anything and always get themselves in trouble by trying to make it better, in turn only making it WORSE. Then they go in blame others, in the case,the makers and designers Air Force airguns.
Thankfully there are people out there that aren't like that like me and you.
I get the idea that you have issues with AirForce.
The issues I have have been stated already.
Each of your complaints has an answer.
Top hats that stick open have always been due to improper seating of the pellet. I have demonstrated to customers how an improperly loaded pellet can exhaust an air tank in one shot, which is why we addressed this issue in the video. This will happen with all PCPs, but most other PCPs use a loading probe that seats the pellet the same depth every time. AirForce chose to allow the shooter to select the seating depth by not using a probe, and they supplied the instructions for how to load the gun correctly. Some shooters disregard those instructions. If they don't seat deeply, the pellet will flare around the breech, lock in place and create backpressure that will hold the valve open.
This is not the only reason that tanks dump. They also dump because the collars are not fitted correctly to the frame. When the hammer strikes the tophat, it strikes at an angle. This causes the valve stem to slide in at an angle. When this happens, the most common result is th