Thursday, July 26, 2007

Fitting Leapers compact scopes to air rifles

by B.B. Pelletier

This post was suggested by a reader named Gary, who also goes by the handle oldhootowl. He asked specifically whether the Leapers compact scopes were made for airguns and would they fit on his Gamo Shadow breakbarrel rifle.

To that I answer: yes to the first and no to the second. The yes is unqualified, because Leapers scopes have been made for airguns since they started making them in the 1990s. Two things determine whether a scope can be used on an air rifle. First, is it parallax-corrected close enough and second, can it take the two-way recoil of the spring gun. Leapers holds the current record in close parallax correction, at 9 FEET with both Bug Busters.

Some Leapers scopes have a fixed parallax correction. I have a 3 to 9 variable that's fixed at 35 yards. It works fine and I have no problems with it. But a sister scope is corrected to 100 yards, which might be a little long for an airgun. It will work, of course, but there might be more parallax than you want at close range.

I also own an older Leapers compact scope with adjustable AO (parallax correction) that only goes as close as 25 yards. I still use it because the power is set at six, so the closer targets are not too fuzzy. As you can see, I'm not a fussy guy. I just take the shot, instead of debating about the specifications.

So - what is the problem?
The problem with mounting all compact scopes is where they have to be positioned, because of their compact size. There is only a small space on either side of the adjustment knobs that will accept the scope rings. You have to put them there or nowhere. That's why I keep harping on using two-piece rings. Unless one-piece rings have been made to fit a compact scope, they will not line up with the only place on the scope that will accept the rings. I've taken a picture to show you what I mean.


You can see the extremely limited area for scope rings on this Bug Buster 2. I have used half-sized rings to get more space, but thin rings are not recommended for recoiling spring guns.


Now, combine the limited positioning of the compact scope with the location of the scope stop on the Shadow 1000 and you can see that the compact scope has to be mounted too far forward on the rifle. The rear scope ring has to butt against the front of the scope stop, which puts the eyepiece several inches too far forward. If you can see any sight picture at all, it will be just a fraction the size it is supposed to be, plus it will be loaded with parallax from you craning your head all over the place to see the picture. Not good! I may not be fussy, but this just doesn't work at all.


The Shadow 1000 scope stop blocks the rings from coming back far enough for the eye-relief to be right.


Where can compact scopes be used?
One type of airgun that is ideal for compact scopes is the precharged pneumatic. Several, like the Career Dragon Slayer, seem to be made for it. Another type of rifle that's good for compacts is the small CO2 gun, like the Crosman 1077 and the Walther Lever. Guns like these not only have no scope mounting issues, the smaller size of the compact scope compliments their smaller overall size and weight.


This compact Leapers scope fits a Dragon Slayer like it was made for it. The lack of sharp recoil means no scope stop is needed.


That's why you have to be careful selecting compact scopes for air rifles. To determine if they will fit, find out about the need for a scope stop, and if the gun needs one, where is it located?

83 Comments:

At July 26, 2007 6:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If a leapers scope, such as the 6-24x50, could handle the recoil of a springer, could it handle the recoil of a bigger high powered rifle? I'm looking at putting one on a 300 remington ultra magnum and I'm making sure that I'm not going to destroy the scope.

 
At July 26, 2007 6:53 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Yes, Leapers TS platforms are rated for elephant rifles (.416 Rigby, 350 shots at a bench).

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 6:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok cool. Thanks a bunch B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:03 AM, Blogger Steve said...

Don't forget that placing the stop in back of the front ring would allow one to move the scope back further.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:11 AM, Anonymous Scott298 said...

B.B.--Scott298, I had purchased a leepers compact scope for my rws 350. When I picked it up at the gun smith (always have my scopes professionally installed) it looked great. The sleek line of the compact made it look like a show piece and the I put it up to my cheek. To my horror my eye was so far from the scope it was absolutly useless-had to move up to a full size scope--thanks, Scott

 
At July 26, 2007 7:22 AM, Blogger Joe in MD said...

The BKL reach-forward mounts can sometimes solve problems with scope mounting. There is nothing that says you can't reach-back, too. A riser block can provide a way to bridge over breeches, etc. and provide a better mount for a scope at the cost of a higher scope (which is only a problem for close shooting where you will need more hold-over).

 
At July 26, 2007 7:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If scope retailers and or manufacturers would give detailed specs on their scopes these problems would be avoided.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

bb, i've done my due diligence and read your articles about scope mounting. i've read where 20yrds is the best distance to sight, and i'm guessing this is out to 50yrds. but what if you are shooting out to 75 or 100yrds? is 20yrds still your sight distance? or is it more like 40yrds for shooting 100yrds? is there a magic formula like 2/5 of a persons distance for shooting?
thanks

 
At July 26, 2007 7:51 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Steve,

You make a good point, if there is room under the scope to accept it.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:53 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Joe,

Another good mounting tip.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:55 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Specs are a partial answer, and most manufactirers give them. If the eye relief is 2.7-3.1 inches and the customer pays no attention or doesn't know what that means, however, it is to no avail.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:58 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

For longer-range shooting, your zero point has to be farther out than 20 yards, or you won't be on target. My guess is that you want to zero at the closest far distance at which you will shoot. Another way would be to zero for the middle of the long distances, but that may not be possible when it gets out around 100 yards and you are dropping several feet per each ten yards.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 9:24 AM, Anonymous Bryan said...

Are Leapers scope really rated for elephant rifles? That is amazing considering those guns are monsters.

Reminds me of the video on the net of the Indian guy shooting one and it flying back.

 
At July 26, 2007 10:41 AM, Blogger pestbgone said...

Duct Seal in the UK
B.B.,
I was watching the thread the other day from the guy in the UK trying to find duct seal to make a silent pellet trap. I stumbled upon the manufacturers UK website today. They also list a Germany address. Hopefully he's reading your blog today.
One pound block of duct seal
Ideal 31-601

http://idealindustries.co.uk/index.cfm?pid=13&op=dsp&pk=14314&fk=74&print=1

 
At July 26, 2007 10:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pestbgone

lol of course im reading BBs blog. We never miss, do we?
Thanks for that link. VERY useful.
I owe ya one :)

 
At July 26, 2007 11:00 AM, Anonymous Scott said...

Bryan,

Yes, Leapers scopes most definitely are designed for the large bore centerfires.
Their American competitor, Leupold, rates their scopes to withstand thousands of round from the .375 H&H, which is adequate for elephants, and the .416 Rigby Leapers cites as their benchmark slams back with something in the neighborhood of 80fps.
Probably, the heaviest recoiling caliber commonly used in a rifle that has scope mounts is the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
For truly extreme recoil, the .50BMG chambered Barrett sniper rifles have conventional riflescopes to make 1.5 mile kills.
As it turns out, the extreme recoil of even this caliber doesn't pose nearly as much problem to the scope itself as it does to the shooter.
The reason is that eye relief in such a notorious kicker should be as generous as possible, at the peril of the shooter's eyebrow.
The reason Leapers scopes are so widely touted for airguns - and spring pistons in particular - is because they have been designed to withstand the whip-cracking recoil unique to the piston slamming forward.
As it turns out, it is simpler and cheaper to design a scope for use strictly on a pneumatic or CO2 airgun or even a heavy recoiling centerfire than it is for one on a spring piston.
So, it wouldn't be a good idea at all to take, say, an antique Unertl scope and mount it on a Beeman R1, unless you want to see it reduced to glass dust.

 
At July 26, 2007 11:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ok, i feel like a bit of a fool asking this, but here goes...
You speak of finding a zero point for a scope, but surely, if i am shooting a target at 25M and my scope has AO, then i would just spin the AO till its in good focus?
Would i still need to zero a scope in as well?

 
At July 26, 2007 11:19 AM, Anonymous Bryan said...

Ah thanks Scott for the reply!

So what would take one of the beasts down? Other then a direct hit to the scope it self with a blunt object.

 
At July 26, 2007 11:21 AM, Blogger pestbgone said...

UK duct seal guy,
Yup, always lurking and learning! Hope there's a distributor near you. At my local Lowe's home improvement store, it's about $2.00 per one pound chunk and I used about 12 pounds.
Have fun!
Pestbgone

 
At July 26, 2007 11:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

pestbgone

what gun and ammo are u using? and have you found that amount of duct seal is doing the job you want it too?

 
At July 26, 2007 11:34 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Pestbgone,

Thank you for that duct seal info! Now we ARE a world community!

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 11:40 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

AO vs zero guy,

I have never heard your question before. I am not saying that it is a stupid question (there ARE no stupid questions!), but I've never heard it asked this way.

This is definitely blog material - but I have to ponder a bit on exactly how I want to answer it.

The two (AO and zero point) are not related, but I can see how easy it would be to become confused.

Heck, the more I think about this, the more it sounds like a whole series to me.

Thank you!

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 11:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB

lol thanks. I have 6 rifles, and 6 scopes, all i do is target shoot (not hunt) so i dont need to use millidot (though my scopes do have them) i simply turn the parralax dial till im in focus, then adust with the wind and height elevation until i shoot where i point. Though this seems to work, i have a feeling im missing out on something, hence my question. Would ge great to hear a detail blog answer :)

 
At July 26, 2007 11:52 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Once again, I am not chiding you for the question! I just contains so much of what I want to talk about that I cannot overlook this opportunity.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 12:07 PM, Blogger pestbgone said...

UK duct seal guy,
I mashed mine into a metal baking pan about 3" deep, but I didn't make the same mistake B.B. did of taking one of my wife's favorite "seasoned" baking sheets! How long have you been married, BB? L.O.L.
Like BBs pics showed, it just swallows up the pellets. I have a shadow 1000 and shoot JSB exacts and Beeman Kodiaks, and a B40 with CPs and Beeman FTS. Whenever I put a new target on, I just mash the duct seal flat with the end of a small board and its as good as new. No cleaning required!

B.B.- You are right about it being a world community. You are sharing info with folks and then find out they are in another part of the world. Pretty amazing!

 
At July 26, 2007 2:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

AO vs zero guy said "i simply turn the parralax dial till im in focus,...then adust with the wind and height elevation until i shoot where i point".
dude YOU ARE zeroing your scope every time you are adjusting your wind and elevation to shoot where you point.

 
At July 26, 2007 2:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

bb, at what range is a 3-9x recommended, and then at what range should you move to a 4-16x, and 6-24x. i don't want to buy to much magnification if its not necessary, and i don't want to buy too little.
thanks

 
At July 26, 2007 2:50 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Anonymous dude,

Thanks. I saw that too, but I thought I must have missed something.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 2:57 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

It's not so much range as the targets you will shoot. For example a 3-9 is fine for squirrels. So is a 4-16, but sometimes you will have to turn the power down to see where you are in the tree.

On the other hand, if you shoot field target and want to pass through those 3/8" kill zones, you need all the power there is.

In the 1960s, hunters were happy with 4 power scopes. The Unertl target scope was only 20 power and they were shooting woodchucks at 400 yards with it mounted on a .22-250. Today, I put 40 power on my airgun to shoot 55 yards.

I was out shooting today with a 3-12 scope. The shots were at 50 yards and the bullets were .459. I had all the power I needed. I could have shot at 100 yards and been fine. But if I want to hit dragonflies at 20 yards, I want more power.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 3:21 PM, Blogger StiCkY said...

BB,

Thank you for your input on my peep sight problem. Would you happen to know where a could get a larger aperture for my williams peep sight? Or maybe could i just customize the one i have, say take a power drill and drill the hole bigger?

 
At July 26, 2007 3:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ok,...thanks for the power answer, that clears up alot

 
At July 26, 2007 3:27 PM, Blogger StiCkY said...

BB,

Just thought ide give you this link, 5 Lb block of duct seal for $12 !!!! Would this be enough to make my own silent trap? I think i remember saying you need about 9 Lbs for yours right?

http://www.goodmart.com/products/electrical_supplies_wire_installation_accessories.htm

 
At July 26, 2007 3:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

no prob bb.
i come from the school of "there are no stupid questions" also, but that one was dancing very close...
anyone with 6 rifles and asks THAT question needs to lose their shooting privileges for a month, and take a time-out....lol....just joking, with a hint of seriousness.

anonymous dude

 
At July 26, 2007 4:33 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Sticky,

William sells disks with apertures of different sizes. Check with them for what you need, but don't drill the hole yourself until you are sure.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 4:35 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Sticky,

That's a good price. Get 10 pounds, at least. Maybe more. Deeper is better.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 5:30 PM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB - I'm kicking around getting another .22 breakbarrel, and I'm down to the B26 and the Panther.

I wouldn't have considered the Panther prior to your write-up, since my twangy and very hold-sensitive '34 was a bit of a disappointment. However, your review is making me think twice about it.

Are you reasonably sure that the qualities you noted are normal to that model - or is there any real chance that you happened to get a "good fluke"?

 
At July 26, 2007 5:36 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince,

I have to be honest, the possibility that this one is a great one crossed my mind, too. But the trigger is so much different than the 34s I remember, and the firing behavior is so much smoother that I have to believe Diana has made some good improvements to their gun.

Now the B26 is another nice air rifle, so you do have a tough choice.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:02 PM, Anonymous Vince said...

Ya know, the '34 I recently sold had a T05 trigger, and I thought it was rather mediocre. Then I bought my refurb '48 with a T05 - and man, what a difference! Hard to believe they had the same trigger. I tried adjusting the '34, but there was no way I could get it to feel as good as the '48.

 
At July 26, 2007 7:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello, this is a question for either BB or Tom Gaylord if they happen to read it. I own a crosman phantom air rifle, and I have been trying to scope it for over a month now but every scope I get seems to be defective. I have tried one leapers stealth rubber armored scope (3-9x40) and after reading Tom Gaylord's review on the leapers 3-9x40 AO mil-dot with RGB, I paid the extra $6 and got that scope as an RMA, and went through 3 of those as well. every scope I have mounted has ended up with the same results and I know my mounting technique is NOT the problem, I spend 45 minutes mounting each scope just to be positive I don’t damage it in any way. basically what has been happening is after mounting, I bore sight my rifle with a laserlyte boresighter, zero in on the laser dot and take a 3 shot group before further zeroing. every time I have tried this process at 10 yards, I have ended up with group sizes of up to 4" which is NOT acceptable, I know my air rifle isn’t ever going to be nearly as accurate as allot of others out there but at 10 yards with the original fiber optic sights that came on the gun, I can pit a dime at 10 yards. I immediately knew there was something wrong with each scope I have tried so I decided to use a new technique to be sure it was the scope without a doubt..... I bore sighted again, zeroed on the laser dot and took a shot then repeated that process after every shot for 15 shots..... every single time, after shooting when I reinserted the boresighter and turned it on, my crosshairs had moved considerably away from the laser dot, making it pretty obvious that something is wrong with the internal mechanism inside the scope. like I said, this is the 4th leapers scope with the TS platform that has given me these results, 3 of the 4 being the exact model that Tom Gaylord did his big "leapers asked for it" review on. do you know of anyone else experiencing these problems? and can you possibly recommend another scope that offers the same features as the one I have been having so many problems with?
again, this post was intended for BB or Tom Gaylord, but if anyone else has had the same problems, please let me know. from what I was told after my last return for this reason, pyramyd air will not RMA another scope for me, they claimed the last one they sent me had been tested by their gunsmith but its obvious that if it was tested in any way at all, it was never tested as it would've been used in the real world.

Smokey

 
At July 26, 2007 8:07 PM, Anonymous fflincher said...

This is wildly off topic, but I know of nowhere else to ask this question. It's all you guys' fault, anyway, that and all the rain we've been getting where I live, that I've been breaking out the old air guns.

I have a Benjamin Franklin pump up long gun. I don't say "rifle" because I can't tell if there is rifling or not, and the right side of the receiver says CAL BB MODEL 340.

Please tell me what I have and what I can safely feed it.

Thanks!

fflincher

 
At July 26, 2007 9:08 PM, Anonymous Bryan said...

Well for rifling just look down the barrel.

 
At July 26, 2007 11:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smokey,
No offense intended, but the odds of getting 4 defective Leapers scopes in a row is about the same as winning the the big Lotto jackpot, don't you think? First off, you don't need the laser bore sighter. Do you have a good solid scope stop behind your scope? Have you done a search on this blog and read all the reports on mounting and sighting in a scope? How far off of optical center did you have to adjust your scope to find that laser point? Did you crank it to one of the extremes?
First, take the scope off the gun and optically center it. Its covered in one of the old blogs. Remount it with a good stop behind it. Then shoot about 50 shots through it without trying to adjust anything. That will let everything settle in: the gun, the mounts, the scope, and you. Then, again without trying to adjust anything, just aim at a point on a target and see if you can shoot a group. Don't use the laser bore sighter! After you can shoot a group, even if it's 8" off the target, then try and adjust the scope. But if the POI is too far away from the POA, which may be the case, then it's more likely a barrel droop issue and you need to get adjustable mounts for your scope.
But honestly, four bad scopes in a row? Think about it for a while. Have you heard the old expression, "It's my own best thinking that got me into this mess"?

 
At July 27, 2007 1:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes i do have a scope stop of sorts, it is built into the scope mounts themselfs. my air rifle came tapped with a cheap scope stop installed (a thin piece of steel screwed into place at the rear of the dovetail to prevent scope slippage) i removed the cheap factory scope stop and the existing tap hole that was left behind proved perfect for the vertical stop pin in my accushot rings (the only rings i have found so far that are high enough for this scope without being over an inch from bottom of objective bell to top of power plant... in other words the only ones i've found that are high enough without being too high.) and no, i did not have to over ajust the scope the first time i zeroed it in, infact i was surprised at how little i had to ajust the scope to center the crosshairs on the laser dot. the only reason i use the laser bore-sighter in the first place is to test and make sure that the scopes internal mechanism, reticle/erector tube doesnt move, its pretty obvious that the gun's barrel doesnt move, (aside from when being cocked)and i have noticed no alignment issues with the barrel AT ALL after cocking the gun so theres no way i can think of that the axis of the barel from which the laser is projected should ever change that dramatically, and this is how i deduced that the reticle inside my scope is moving.
yes i have removed and remounted the scope several times after a nice long shooting session. and with each one i have tried out, i have shot over 200 pellets through my gun with the scope mounted just incase of it needing to "settle in" this scope is by no means the first i have ever mounted, but it is the first i've ever had this many problems with (well actually the 4th if you count the ones i've already returned) i have also called Leapers and spoke with their customer service, they told me that these scopes should never act the way im describing and said that the most likely cause of this is a bad batch accidentally being shipped to pyramyd air. they said it HAS happened before and that i should suggest to pyramyd air that they do an inventory replacment, send the deffective scopes back to leapers and that leapers would restock them for free. i suggested this to everyone at pyramyd air that i spoke with and noone took me seriously (probably because of shipping time, which is understandable) im getting off the subject though. my point is as follows.
i have mounted all 4 scopes that i recieved perfectly according to the mounting instructions i've read on every blog on this site, and according to my experiance over the past 7 years. the scope has not been "over cranked", put in a bind, or damaged in any way, infact if i was to remove it from my rifle, even after remounting it several times, you would see no scratches or dents of any kind on it..... im extremly carefull when mounting my scopes. there are 2 reasons i use a laser bore sighter. first off, it projects a beam dirrectly from the axis of the gun's barrel and provides a fast and acurate way to get your first group on paper without wasting a bunch of pellets (or bullets if your using a firearm). and secondly even though the pellets wont group exactly where you zeroed in on the laser dot because of rifling and the fact that the pellet takes a trajectory rather than a perfectly streight line. my groups should've been MUCH tighter i was using an exact aim point (small dot no bigger than a pencil erasor) there was no room for error and i retested SEVERAL times using 3 shot groups. even if i never hit my aim point, with that small of an aim point, the pellets should've all grouped verry closely wherever they hit if the reticle never moved inside the scope, yet i was left with groups ranging from 4" on center to groups much smaller at 2" on center at 10 yards, and like i said, with my fiber optic sights, i can get groups small enough from this gun to pit a dime at that short of a distance.
im not trying to argue with you at all, you brought up allot of good points that would've been verry usefull, but i had already covered all the bases you suggested and i wanted to make that clear to avoid any other confusion. normaly, after recieving this many defective scopes in a row, i would think the same thing your thinking "maybe im doing somthing wrong" but as i said, i've been verry careful, and i have eliminated every possible mistake i could've made in mounting or shooting with this scope. the only thought i am left with is that leapers did infact ship pyramyd air a bad batch of scopes, and i wanted to know if anyone else had encountered the same problems i did. so if anyone has, please speak up. and BB or Tom Gaylord. if your out there reading this, or anyone else for that matter, any helpfull advice would be greatly apreciated.
oh and by the way anonymous, thank you for your suggestions, again, if i sound argumentitive, im sorry, just trying to make my situation clear is all :-)

Smokey

 
At July 27, 2007 4:55 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

smokey

hi, sorry to hear about your scope issues, not good at all. Im puzzled as to what you are asking BB or Gaylord to advise though? You seem to have tried everything thats been suggested, and assuming thats the case, then it would have to be the scopes? Do you have another gun to try the scope on? or maybe another make of scope to try on your gun? Is your springer badly tuned and the heavy vibration effecting the scope?
I wish you all the best in finding a remedy.

 
At July 27, 2007 5:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB

its accepted that in all ranges of products, some will be excellent, some will be very poor and most will be mediocre, and im sure air guns dont defy this priciple. Usually cost defines where the item will place, but in some cases items produced in huge numbers can be cheaper, but better than a items made in small numbers, anyway, back to my question...
I have not read any of your product reviews that have eneded with you really not liking the item. (maybe ive just missed these??) I understand that you are paid by Pyramid, and they sell what you review....but it would be nice to hear you confirm that your reviews are not tainted and are what you generally feel about the product.

 
At July 27, 2007 5:45 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

How I REALLY feel?,

I think you have missed the point!

Please re-read the three-part report about the Marksman 1010:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/marksman-1010-part-3-air-pistol-that.html

Read the final paragraph, and you'll see how I feel.

Maybe I confuse you because I do not rant and insult a company about their product the way other internet writers do. I think that's childish, and whenever I read it, I feel the writer is immature. So my writing style may be throwing you off.

Surely TODAY'S report about the Taurus PT1911 is a perfect example of how I really feel about a product!

However, it may just be that the way I write is not speaking to you. That happens and there's not much that can be done about it. But I never lie about what I write. The numbers and feelings are always there, if you can understand what I am trying to say.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 5:49 AM, Blogger RexDart said...

Vince: Panther vs. B26-

Get the Panther! The mod 34's are such a classic, and there is something to be said for Chinese copy products that I will not go into here. I just ordered a Macarri GRT spring kit for my 34 in order to tame the behavior a bit. While this won't help the trigger, from what I've read JM's springs make a world of difference.

just my .02

-Paul Capello

 
At July 27, 2007 5:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smokey,
I'm the first guy who responded to you. It does indeed sound like you've tried everything and I know how frustrating that can be but here is one more suggestion.
You say that you can get a good group with the open sights but not with the scope. Your open sights are both mounted on the barrel, right? But the scope is mounted on the receiver so any looseness in the barrel hinge will have no effect on the open sights but can wreak havoc on scope aiming if the joint is loose. I had exactly that situation on a break barrel I had and at first I was sure it was the scope. Lay the gun down on its side with the barrel hanging off the edge of the table and push gently up and down on the tip of the barrel and see if you get any movement. You may have to take the gun out of the stock to get a close look to see if there is any play at the hinge. I think you might be surprised.
Good luck!

 
At July 27, 2007 6:06 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

I just settled down to my computer, so I'll read everything you've written before I respond, but this advice about the barrel joint tightness is good. You are looking for sideways wobble at the action fork, where the base block pivots when you cock the gun.

I just thought of something else, but I'll get back to you with that.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 6:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

nope, no play in he barrel hinge that i can see, i just checked it both horizontaly and vertically, didnt find any looseness at all. a fact that i forgot to mention earlier is that this rifle is only about 2 months old and has been shot quite a bit but hasnt had much of a chance for things to loosen over time. that was yet another great idea you came up with though, i wouldnt have given it any thought with the gun being so new, im glad you pointed it out. somthing else i was woundering if anone could tell me... i've noticd a small screw in the bottom of all the leapers scopes that have been sent to me, i havnt seen it on any other brand of scopes before. its a tiny screw, the size you would use a jewler's screwdriver on, and i havnt touched it at all ( im scared that if i do it might void the waranty ). im just curious as to what its for? possibly securing the erector tube? or somthing else?

Smokey

 
At July 27, 2007 6:22 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

Okay, I have SCANNED your messages. Please forgive me if I ask a question that you have already answered.

After reading the first message, my thought was that the erector tube is bouncing. That happens when the vertical adjustment is run all the way to the top of its travel.

You said the scdopes were close to center when you got them, which would rule out the adjustment, however, I still do not know that the adjustment is in the middle of its range. It could have been off when you got it.

If the vertical (or horizontal) adjustment is all the way to the top (or to the right, usually) it will relax pressure on the erector tube return spring. That allows the erector tube to change alignment with a jar or vibration.

Would you please check that?

I know about that small screw, however it is not an adjustment for the scope. Leave it alone.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 6:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB

thanks for the answer about your reviews. I for one take your reviews as gospel, and my future purchases will not be made without reading a review you have done, which was why i asked the question in the first place.

Thanks again

 
At July 27, 2007 6:29 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

fflincher,

The Benjamin 340 (It's not a Benjamin Franklin - That's a play on the company name, which is why it's in quotes) is a BB gun. It is smoothbore and has a hollow bolt probe. You place the BB in the bolt nose, then push the bolt home and fire.

If you fire a .177 pellet, put it in the trough and push it in with the bolt.

Your gun was made between 1969 and 1986, according to the Blue Book.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 6:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thank you BB for your response to my question. i dont think that over or under ajustment is the case, but i will check to make absolutly sure, im assuming your saying to ajust the windage and elevation all the way down and all the way to the left for this test so thats what i will do, i know my shots will be considerably far from the cross hairs but i'll still keep the crosshairs on a small aim point to see if my groupes get any tighter..... i truly hope this fixes the problem but i wont know untill i get a little bit of rest and the sun comes up a little more. i will post again around noon to let you know how things went. thank you all again for all the help!

Smokey
PS i dont plan on touching that tiny screw for any reason, i was just curious as to what its for? believe me when i say that im in no hurry to loosen or tighten it and void my warranty, just thought i'd ask for the heck of it.

 
At July 27, 2007 6:44 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

The adjustments don't have to be all the way down and to the left. If they did, the scope wouldn't be much good.

Just make sure they aren't run all the way to the OTHER end.

We will keep working on this till we get it.

I'm going to the range again so I may not get back to you right away. Good luck and I hope we found it.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 7:26 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

Smokey, ditto (a couple of times over) on the lock-up issue. I've found that these Crosman guns (and the B19 predecessor) can shoot well with opens, but are frequently difficult to scope. I honestly thought the cheap Powerline 3-9x32 scopes I had were junk because I could not get good results on a Crosman Quest-based gun. Then I got a CFX, and guess what? The scopes are FINE!

One problem (IMO) with the Chinese Crosman lock-up is that the breach closes on the semi-hard breach seal, there's no "metal-to-metal" stop on the mechanism. On mine, after I close the breach I can still "force" it to close a tiny bit more because the seal compresses a bit more. This is not gonna give consistent lock-up.

Some have also reported that the plastic friction washers on either side of the breach will permit barrel movement (even if you can't feel it by hand), and that replacing them with brass washers improves scope performance considerably.

 
At July 27, 2007 7:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

smokey, if there is a concern that Pyramid got a bad batch of scopes,...is it possible for you to work directly with Leapers in having them exchange the scope from one of their "trusted" batches?

 
At July 27, 2007 8:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ok, i decided that i wasnt going to sleep untill i tried what BB said... i never would've given it much thought untill now, and it turns out he was right.... well at least halfway right, i am getting MUCH closer groups now, im just estimating but i would say around a half inch on centerat 10 yards.... still not the tightness i was getting with open sights but its getting ALOT better. what i did was wind the turret knobs all the way down and all the way to the left untill i couldnt turn them any more without forcing them (i know to never force them, learned that the hard way on the first scope i ever owned)i guess its pointless to tell you what you already know.... it brought my shot a pretty good distance from my aim point (surprisingly not as far left as it did down though, wounder why?)when i fired my 3 shot group, i had to really look for it, but found it about 10 inches down and 4 inches to the left of my aim point, the group was increadibly tight, i had to look twice to make sure it wasnt just one hole. i was extremly happy with that group so i ajusted the turrets all the way to the opisite extremes to relaxe the springs inside the tube then proceeded to zero in. this is where things got weird again though..... i am still shooting somwhat tight groups into a dime sized bullseye at 10 yards on a 100 yard rifle sight in target but the group size has expanded to about a half inch or a little more on center, and every once in a while, an entire group will move above or below the bullseye by as much as 2 inches. any ideas n what might cause that? keep in mind im not talking about a single occasional pellet but an entire 3 shot groupe. im going to do a little more playing with it and see if i cant figure a few more things out before my next post but i will check back on this thread to see is anyone has any more ideas on whats causing my newest problem... oh by the way, im using beeman silver ace pellets and im shooting from a rifle vice, but the rifle is not clamped in place, i just let it float on it to steady my shot much like allot of people use sand bags.
o answer two more questions i just saw dirrected toward me. yeah i took into consideration that the crosman phantom that im using is by no means a top of the line rifle, but it is powerful, acurate and so far it seems to be built verry well aside from an issue i had the first time i ever cocked it. nothing seems to be loose or out of alignment at all, and i have checked it over pretty thuroughly both in and out of the stock. the first time i ever cocked it, the aluminum pin that the cocking hinge bent on snapped in half, but i quickly replaced it with a small, strong steel bolt that i had on hand, it turned out to be the perfect fit and hasnt given me any problems ever since.
i have wanted a CFX ever since the first time i saw one, i personaly hate break barrel rifles because of the tendancy for the barrel to "droop" after heavy use over time but that is just my opinion. i bought this rifle because it is powerfull and it was on sale at the local rural king store for $50. they were clearancing them because illinois just passed a law saying that you need a foit card to purchase any gun that fires a projectile at more than 700FPS. also the reason i cant order a CFX, noone will ship them to illinois anymore. i still dont understand how a firearms license (foit card) can be required to buy an air rifle though seeing as how from my understanding, it is illeagle for an air rifle to be considered as a firearm. oh well not my worry since i got my current air rifle before the law took effect.
as for my being able to return the scope dirrectly to leapers. yes i COULD do that, but i've been trying to avoid it for one reason only.... i have already payed for shipping and handling, and if i was to send it to leapers for replacment, they would force me to pay for the shipping both ways. i would be willing to do that if i absolutly had to but im trying hard to avoid having to pay for somthing twice. im not a rich man by any means afterall.

Smokey

 
At July 27, 2007 8:33 AM, Blogger RexDart said...

B.B and All,

Good morning to you! I've updated the photos on the ArtiliPod page with the latest advances in design. Perhaps after it's completed and tested, I can send it to you B.B. (postage return included of course) if you are interested. Maybe we have something in this weird design here!

As for the hand rest, do you think suede or leather? It will be hand stitched and poly filled, contoured to both the wrist and back of the hand. Maybe even interchangable rests, for say the conventional 'V' of a rifle monopod. Having way too much fun here.

I'll be camping and airgun shooting in the Catskills for the next week--very excited :)

Cheers,
-Paul Capello

 
At July 27, 2007 8:34 AM, Blogger RexDart said...

Forgot the link:

http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/artilipod

 
At July 27, 2007 8:48 AM, Blogger RexDart said...

Smokey says: "i personaly hate break barrel rifles because of the tendancy for the barrel to "droop" after heavy use over time but that is just my opinion."

That's really not possible...barrels don't bend or droop--ever from regular use. You could use a break barrel rifle for a hundred years and your accuracy would not change due to a bent barrel. Read up on this blog (do a search) about Droop and you'll understand.

-PC

 
At July 27, 2007 10:26 AM, Anonymous fflincher said...

BB, thank you for that quick and informative response concerning my Benjamin "Franklin" 340.

I did look down the bore with a strong light and saw what appeared to be swirls not unlike the polygonal rifling on some enterfire pistols. Still, I could not see any lands or grooves, thus my confusion over whether to call it a rifle. Can you please tell me whether this gun can shoot the premium Daisy zinc plated and Crosman Copperhead BBs as well as lead BBs without harming the bore?

I just spent about $200.00 at Pyramid getting pellets, targets, BBs and other airgun accessories and have been very pleased with Pyramid's performance. I appreciate your assistance and guidance also. It was reading your blog which influenced me to buy heavy pellets in .177 and .22.

I am encouraged by your explanation of the "artillery" hold, as I've had inconsistent accuracy from my springers, except for the Daisy model 25 pump BB gun.
I have a Webley Tempest .177 and know it needs different sight settings for single hand or two hand hold. Is there a hold that will increase its accuracy, too?

Thank you again!

fflincher

 
At July 27, 2007 12:27 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

fflincher,

Yes to all the ammo you mention. .177 round balls with be more accurate than steel BBs.

Concerning your Tempest, they are very hard to shoot accurately unless you hold them the same way every time. Use the hold I describe for the Beeman P1:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/05/beeman-p1hw45-air-pistol.html

The Tempest will bounce in your hand like an M1911A1, but let it. If you hold it the same every time, your groups will be better.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 2:16 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

A couple of thigs come up from your latest message. You are resting (floating) your rifle on a vice? Are you putting your hand BETWEEN the vice and the gun? If not, try that. Rest the rifle just in front of the triggerguard on the flat of your open palm.

The second thing that jumped out at me is parallax. It sounds like you are moving your face on the buttstock. Do you have a good spot-weld, because it would be dead-easy to get a half-inch of parallax at 10 yards by moving your sighting eye on the stock. That is what I believe is causing whole groups to move. To make certain you don't move, put a piece of tape on the stock and always touch the tape in the same place with your cheek.

Barrel droop isn't caused by a bent barrel on an older breakbarrel. It's caused by the alignment of the barrel breech, and it is the worst on new guns.

Tell me more about this aluminum pin that broke. A barrel pivot bolt (the axel on which the baseblock pivots when the barrel is cocked) isn't supposed to be made of anything but hardened steel. If you replaced it, did you ream the holes in the baseblock through which the the new pin passes? They have to be precisly fitted to the pivot bolt or the rifle cannot shoot its best.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 2:19 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Paul,

Looks like your project is coming along nicely.

B.B.

 
At July 27, 2007 3:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smokey - I tried the silver ace on my new rifle also and had very loose groups. I did a lot better with the RWS domed / match, Beeman FTS, JSB Exact, Crosman Premier / Accupell, etc (try domed or match). Shooting from a vice also was terrible, not clamped, but a hard stop at the rear. Try some other pellets and read up on the artillery hold BB had a few days back. The gun really needs to float. Pyramid was awful nice to provide 4 scopes!

Ozark

 
At July 27, 2007 5:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB the hinge pin im talking about that broke is not the one that holds the barel base block in place, it is the pin in the cocking action in the main elbow there... im sorry i just woke up, im trying to think of a better way to explain it, but the best i can think of isto say that when you pop the barrel open to cock and load it, there is a cocking mechanism that consists of 2 arms that hinge together, connecting at the base block you spoke of then running to the power plant, the center hinge on this mechanism is what originaly broke and i fixed, the bolt fit is snug and seems to work perfectly so far.
as for my shooting from a vice, like i said, i dont clamp my gun, i do let it float, and the only stop at the rear end is my shoulder, just like it would be if i was firing from my shoulder, i keep the contact with my shoulder light so the rifle can recoil the dirrection it wants. yes i do usualy float the gun on my hand even in the vice.... just feels wrong to shoot one handed with a rifle.. lol.
as for parrelax, yes i have been ajusting for it, this is my first AO scope so its taking some getting used to, and i've noticed that what i've measured as 10 yeards by hand, the scope seems to think is about 18-20 yards, but thats not a big deal, as long as the target comes into clear, sharp focus when you ajust parrelax right?
as for what i said about break barrel rifles, like i said, its just my personal opinion, and obviously even i will still use one, im using one right now... lol. what i was trying to describe is the wear on the chisel points that comes from metal to metal contact over time, the springs loosen and the chisels slowly wear, i've seen a couple break barels that wouldnt even lock into place after being cocked anymore and they had to be held closed to fire them, but that was quite a few years back and i cant remember what company made them. this is the reason i dont trust break barrels though, my thoughts are that as the chisel points start to wear and get weaker, the barrel starts to droop a tiny bit at a time untill it will nolonger lock into place without having to replace the chisel points. maybe there have been improvments made since the last one i saw that happen to, i hope so! but by looking at myown breakbarrel, although it isnt showing any real signs of wear yet, i can see how it easily would over time. oh and to answer one last question i saw earlier but forgot to answer at the time. no i havnt tuned my rifle yet, im currently trying to get all the materials together that i will need to build a main spring compressor, once i have everything i will need, i fully intend on tuning it.

Smokey

 
At July 27, 2007 10:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

well i just had another long shooting session, seems like the scope is working right, now. still a few minor things that i dont like, but i dont think they have anything to do with the scope.... at 10 yards, my groups are nice and tight no matter what pellets i use, but it seems that while the beeman silver aces group on the bullseye, the silver arrows groupe 4 inches higher and one inch to the left (surprising for a much heavier pellet but probably has alot to do with how snug they fit in my breech and the fact that the rifling grips them better)while the crow magnums seem to groupe at the same height only one inch to the right. my barrel seems to grip both the silver arrows and crow magnums much more snuggly than the silver aces (which seem to just drop right into the barrel and tend to fall out of your not carefull. i just wounder why one groups to the left and the other to the right..... you would think logically that they would buth groupe to the same side, just in differant places. anyway, i moved the target out to 35 yards to do the final zeroing, my groups got quite a bit wider but i know that is to be expected at longer ranges, right now im ageraging about 1 inch groups at 35 yards and hoping to improve as i test different pellets. i might go with the crossman premiers next... both heavy and light to see what happens.
another idea i've been kicking around, is maybe ajusting my turrets all the way up and to the right for a night. i have a feeling that they have been compressed for a while now and maybe releaving the tension on them for a while might give me even better preformance in the long run..... i know a spring stops rebounding as well after its been compressed for too long, and its obvious that the springs in this scope have been compressed for a while before it was sent to me. any thoughts?
THANK YOU again to everyone that helped me out on this matter, i hope somday i can help you all out in return.

Smokey

 
At July 28, 2007 7:23 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smokey,
Glad that it worked out for you in the end. Situations like that can be so frustrating and that is where the benefit of belonging to a club would be so helpful. But alas, there are so many areas without clubs, and I know we are lucky to have this great blog and other internet resources to share and learn from.
Not to beat a dead horse, but do you still think those other 3 scopes were defective?
Curious

 
At July 28, 2007 7:37 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

You are answering your own questions faster than I can get back to you. I like that! At least you're trying to do something, instead of just grousing.

Let's talk about pellets and different impact points. Why would one shoot higher than another and why left or right?

When you shoot a heavy-recoiling handgun, the light, fast bullet usually prints lower and the heavy bullet prints higher. We know that's due to the heavier bullet remaining in the barrel longer and thus being affected more by the recoil.

Same for airguns. Left and right come into play because of vibrations and what they do to the muzzle of your gun. Shooting Times just published a special accuracy issue in which they show a barrel weight being slid back and forth on a rifle barrel. Guess what, it changes where the bullets strike and how well they group.

Airgunners have known this for a decade. There used to be muzzle brakes with movable weights for spring guns to tune the vibrations. My Whiscombe has them built into all 4 barrels.

Now let's talk about those erector tube springs. I tend to do the same thing you do with coil springs - let them relax after use. But science tells us we are wrong. A coil spring will not regain its strength after being relaxed. However, I don't think your springs are weak, either. Just adjust the knobs the way you want and leave them there.

As for the pin you replaced on your rifle, I now understand what it is and where. It isn't critical to accuracy in the slightest. I am surprised to hear they used aluminum for that, though.

I'm glad to hear you are finally working out your accuracy problems. What a relief that must be for you. One-inch at 35 yards is about what I would expect from a Phantom

As for the scope not agreeing with you on distance, you are probably closer than the scope. And you're right. Just focus and you've done it right.

Chisel detents are spring-loaded, so they tend to compensate for wear. They are supposed to be hardened and should not wear, themselves. A bright streak on the face may only be a surface shine - not real wear. It may never get worse. In the best airguns, the chisel detents are themselves adjustable. The HW 55 had them.

B.B.

 
At July 28, 2007 10:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB
thank you again, yet more usefull information... there is one last question i have though, you said a pellet being heavier, like the silver arrow's weight of 11.50 gr. would impact higher because of barrel travel time, right? i was just woundering, if thats the case, why would the crow magnum 8.80 gr impact just as high when its so much lighter and closer to the weight of the silver ace? could that be due to the rilfing in my barrel as well? i have noticed that none of the aces fit snuggly into the barrel like they were designed to do, but both the crow magnums and silver arrows do. do you think this could be another explanation for their groups being so much higher? normaly in a perfect world, i'd like to be able to shoot all 3 of these pellets regularly without having to zero for each specific one. i love the designs of these pellets and use them quite a bit but all for different reasons. i do all my shooting at home because i live in the country and have 2 acres to shoot on without disturbing anyone else. i could go from shooting silver aces at a target to the much heavier silver arrow at a squirrel, or from a silver ace to a crow magnum for taking out those annoying barn swallows at a seconds notice (guess i get distracted easily lol).

and to anonymous. yes i admitt it is verry possible that the previous scoped i tried out could've been perfectly fine, but to be honest, im still slightly iffy with the one im using currently, everything seems to be working right so far but i noticed after zeroing it in yesterday and letting it sit while i slept, when i shot it today, it needed to be zeroed again, and i had not messed with my windage/elevation turrets at all between shooting sessions. my hope is that the scope is still just settling in. i almost wounder if the problems i have experianced are normal though, and if they are, if leapers could further reinforce their scopes by useing a slightly stronger (or longer)spring than their already useing. that way then the reticle is ajusted all the wat to the top and right, logicly there would still be tension on it to keep it from moving, but thats just an idea. i dont know much about the way scopes are built, i just know how to mount and use them lol. like i said this series of scopes is the only series thats ever given me this much trouble, and so far it seems to be the simplest detail that i could've possibly overlooked that caused my problems. again, all my troubles seem to be fading away so far, i will not fully trust this scope untill it has proven itself over the next couple of weeks but if things keep working out the way they are starting to, i will be happy.

thank you again BB your help has saved me alot of headaches!!

Smokey

 
At July 28, 2007 11:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow..... sorry about all the typos by the way everyone lol, maybe i need to start using spell check on all my posts haha!

Smokey

 
At July 29, 2007 7:04 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Smokey,

Yes, pellet FIT will affect POI as well as pellet weight.

I have found that shooting just one pellet for everythijg is the way to keep the zero the same. I pick the most accurate domed pellet and go with it.

B.B,

 
At July 29, 2007 11:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

well i hate to say it but im having problems once again and now this scope is deffanatly going back to pyramyd air. remember how i mentioned that i let the rifle sit over night while i slept and the next day when i picked it up to go shooting, i had to zero it again? the same thing happened today, but this time when i went to zero it again, the turret ajustments did absolutly nothing untill they were turned about halfway through their range of travel, then once they reached the halfway point, they actually started moving the crosshairs the opisite way they were supposed to move them..... up went down, left went right..... i honestly have no clue as to what could be causing these problems anymore, and im back to the deffective batch theory so i'll be calling the RMA department tomarrow. thank you all once again for your help and advice. hopfully pyramyd air can find it in their hearts to RMA one more scope for me, or at least cover my shipping costs to have this one sent back to leapers for replacment.

Smokey

 
At July 30, 2007 3:15 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smokey

you my friend are whats known in the trade as a 'difficult customer'.

:-)

 
At July 30, 2007 12:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what makes me a difficult customer? all i expect is for the product to do what its supposed to do, and when it doesnt, i expect the company i bought it from to fix the problem. how that is being a difficult customer, i dont know. but i've never been the kinda guy thats just gunna bend over for them.

Smokey

 
At July 30, 2007 1:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I'm a bit behind in my reading, but I just noticed on the Pyramyd site that they are offering NcStar scopes. They are very tempting, but BB, you didn't like them last time I asked. Does this move by Pyramyd signal that these scopes have improved? I still haven't gotten the $ together to get the BSA handgun scope for my Marksman 2004.

Michael in Georgia

 
At July 30, 2007 1:38 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Michael,

If you read the specs you'll discover that there is just one airgun scope in the entire lot. The rest are mainly for airsoft.

B.B.

 
At July 30, 2007 3:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,
Arrgh! Yep, I see it now. Too bad, the prices are nice. I'll just sulk in my corner while I wait for Leapers!

Michael in Georgia

 
At September 25, 2007 8:38 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.

I would like to mount my Bug Buster on my R1. Too much eye relief though. I thought perhaps the Beeman 5034 offset rings just might do the trick. It's hard to tell just by looking at pictures. Do you have any experience or opinion regarding this setup?

Thanks,
Springer John

 
At September 25, 2007 8:51 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Springer John,

Only one of the rings is offset in the 5934. If both were it might work, buit I haven't tried it.

B.B.

 
At April 28, 2008 10:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've been told by my local airgun supplier that a Bug Buster 2 (6x32) might be too short for a Crossman 1077 air rifle. He's not sure I would have the 3 inch eye relief. I noticed that the Bug Buster (4x32) has 3.5 in. of eye relief. Would it be better...Any comments?

 
At April 29, 2008 5:46 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

I could make a Bug Buster 2 work on a 1077, but I don't know your physical dimensions or how you adapt to a rifle.

The Bug Buster will be easier to acquire than the BB2, but I think either scope will work on a 1077.

B.B.

 

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