Monday, July 20, 2009

Which is better - .22 or .25? - Part 2

by B.B.Pelletier

Part 1

Today, the prosecution begins presenting evidence in its case, contending that the .22 caliber pellet is superior to the .25 caliber pellet.

Point 1
John Whiscombe, the man who hand-built spring-piston air rifles of such excellence that most authorities agree they are among the finest, if not the absolute finest, springers to ever exist, stopped making his rifles in .25 caliber because they weren't as accurate as the other three calibers. This wasn't a financial decision; it was solely based on performance. For whatever reasons, Whiscombe felt that .25 wasn't a caliber he wanted to make. You can argue that the pellets aren't up to par or the barrels are substandard or whatever, he just didn't feel that he wanted to make that caliber anymore.


At one time, the JW75 could be bought with barrels in all 4 calibers - .177, .20, .22 and .25. I bought this one, so I can compare the accuracy of a .25 to that of a .22.


I own one of his rifles, and it came to me with barrels in all four calibers. One of the things I want to do is compare group sizes shot from the .22 barrel against the .25 barrel. My tests will not be conclusive, though, because there are far too many variables to consider. I can vary the velocity the rifle shoots, as each barrel has the Harmonically Optimized Tuning System (HOTS) attached. Add that to the great numbers of pellets I would have to test--each at multiple velocities and each of those with different HOTS adjustments--and this one test could last the rest of my life!


The HOTS weight is screwed in or out and locked in position to change the location of the vibration nodes.


Nobody has ever tested all these possibilities with a Whiscombe rifle, and the best I will be able to do is point to a possible inclination toward one caliber or another. And, since I have already told you what my feelings are, there's going to be bias in my testing. I'll give .25 caliber what I feel is a fair trial. Unless a miracle happens, I don't look for it to emerge the victor.

Point 2
Whiscombe rifles are no longer being made. Even if they did come with .25 caliber barrels right until the end, John has ceased production. And, among the rest of the air rifles in the world, .22 is by far the dominant caliber over .25. So, .22 caliber rifles have hundreds and perhaps thousands of times more chances of being more accurate than .25 caliber rifles, just because they exist in far greater numbers. The odds favor them.

Point 3
The most accurate rifles were not produced in .25 caliber, generally speaking. And even when a few of them were, like Daystate and Falcon, none of those .25 caliber rifles has the reputation of being as accurate as the same gun in .22. That's a simple fact that I cannot prove, but which my research has turned up. When shooters brag about their accurate rifles, I note that the .25s they brag about are only capable of producing larger groups than the equivalent rifle in .22. For example, they may brag about a certain Sam Yang .25 as giving one-inch groups at 50 yards, but others tell of half-inch groups with the same model in .22 caliber. While this is not factual evidence, I do note that it seems fairly consistent.

Point 4
There are few good .25 caliber pellets. Several years ago, RWS offered a Diana Magnum in .25. It was a lightweight that hovered around the 20-grain mark and was a great pellet--sometimes the best in a particular rifle. That pellet is now gone from the market, though I have managed to save a few tins against the possibility of finding a straight-shooting .25 someday. I will shoot some groups for you in my Whiscombe and show you the best that rifle can do in that caliber, because the Diana Magnum was always the best pellet in it. But the same rifle in .22 shooting good pellets can do better, and an AirForce Condor or a Benjamin Marauder in .22 can out-shoot it any day of the week.


Diana Magnum pellet, left, was a great .25 caliber pellet while it lasted. It weighed in the neighborhood of 20 grains, so it was a lightweight in .25. The Beeman Kodiak at left is the best .25 pellet on the market today.


Beeman Kodiak pellets are the tops in .25 today, and that's by default. No other pellet challenges them. That said, Crosman is talking about bringing out the Premier pellet in .25 caliber. If they do and if they also make a .25 Marauder, we may see a turnaround. Crosman choked rifle barrels are fully the equivalent of the best that Daystate, Falcon and FX offer. They're as good as Lothar Walther barrels. If they decide to take both of these steps (the rifle and the pellet), the world could get its first serious .25 caliber air rifle that has a chance of keeping up with a .22.

In the next report, I'll show some groups from good .22s and the best .25 I have.

61 Comments:

At July 20, 2009 6:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi B.B. I bought a TX 200 in .22 cal. last year and love it.I've put thousands of shots through it and figured I"d put some chamber oil in the transfer port.,but the instruction book says don't do it because it could detonate.I know you have one in .177 what are your thoughts and advice? By the way was in Home Depot yesterday and they have 4 cell Maglights there including batteries...19.95.Had to get it.Thanks.Have a great day. Jersey Boy.

 
At July 20, 2009 6:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BUILD IT CROSMAN!!!!!

 
At July 20, 2009 8:10 AM, Anonymous wayne said...

Yes,
Go for it Crosman, your the only manufacture large enough to risk a try at the small but growing number of customers for a .25 cal air gun.

B.B.
What percentage of Condors sold are with a .25 cal barrel? And more important is how many add the .25 cal barrel?

It seems like the Condor is a great test bed for this experiment..

Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range

 
At July 20, 2009 9:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question for the group -

More than a year ago, I bought a Daisy 747 (from PA). Been working great, love the gun, but now I’ve got a leaking seal. I’ve got a seal kit from Daisy, but the only instructions are a schematic. (I have adjusted the pump level space to 1.25. It didn’t stop the leak.)

Can anyone point me to (or provide) a step-by-step guide to swapping seals?

Many thanks,

Jim

 
At July 20, 2009 9:11 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jersey Boy,

Why are you oiling your rifle? What indication does it give that it needs to be oiled?

Many rifles like the TX 200 don't need much oil, if any. In the nine years that I've owned mine I've never once oiled the transfer port or even lubed the gun in any way. I would follow the instructions in the owner's manual and just shoot it.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 9:13 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Wayne,

AirForce doesn't sell a Condor in .25. Only Airhog markets one as an aftermarket mod. I would guess the ratio of .25s to .22s is one one-hundredth of one percent.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 9:15 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jim,

When was the last time you oiled your pump head, per the owner's manual? This is an important step. Use Crosman Pellgunoil or 20-weight non-detergent motor oil. Do not use anything else.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 10:08 AM, Blogger Mike said...

BB,

Thank you so much for writing up such a through report. I'm currently leaning towards a .22 cal Walther Falcon Hunter with the gas spring. Is there a "better" spring rifle in .22?

-Mike

 
At July 20, 2009 10:26 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mike,

You put quotes around the word better, so what does it mean to you?

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 10:33 AM, Blogger Fused said...

I have an interesting development in my 92, I thought I'd post it to see if anyone else has had something similar. My gun was a 'popper' meaning that early in the cocking cycle there was a distinct pop well before the click of the sear engagement. Vince said that some 92's as well as some other spring rifles do that, but nothing really to worry about and it may or may not stop on its' own. OK, so I didn't worry. This weekend though, it stopped popping. Great I thought, but then I noticed that my groups suddenly got a lot worse! I'd rather have the popping I said to myself. But before giving up, I tried several different ways of holding again. While it was a popper it liked to be held just about right under the RWS logo. No longer a popper, it decided that it wanted to be held some other way. So, I tried the artillery hold close to the trigger guard many, many times and it just wouldn't work. On a lark, I tried way out at the end of the stock and guess what - good groups (for me that is.) Strange, but ok, all rifles are different. But has anyone had the experience of a rifle changing the way It likes to be held after something like this?

 
At July 20, 2009 11:25 AM, Blogger Randy-in-VA said...

Jim - if oiling the seal doesn't work, try this link:

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spd747.htm

BB - What's a good scope mount for the FWB 124?

 
At July 20, 2009 12:01 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Randy,

B-Square used to make one that worked. And Beeman had one years ago. Nobody I know of makes the half-round transverse stop pins any more. A solution would be to grind a half-round shape into a vertical stop pin.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 12:17 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

Randy-in-VA,

Great link for the Daisy. Do you by chance have a similar one for a Crosman 1077?

How's the Marauder shooting? I guess you didn't see my offer of a loaner CO2 adapter for your gun, but I'm glad you're up and running!

Mr B.

 
At July 20, 2009 12:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A B.B. fortified in his position is formidable. I even had a dream a little while ago about a B.B. gone bad approaching a coastline in a small plane with dark intentions. Very strange.

Anyway, B.B., I like the Whiscombe test in four calibers. I see your point about the multiple variables. Maybe you can just compare the .22 and .25 with the variables optimized for each as much as possible.

Wayne, Bill Wilson, maker of Wilson .45s and eminent pistol shooter in his own right, comes out strongly against supporting the butt of the pistol with the off hand. He calls it the cup and saucer method and says that the off hand does no work in stabilizing the pistol. On the other hand, one can't argue with your results.

If you're thinking of hunting at night with your friends, you had better be very careful of friendly fire.

Kevin, I had pictured a mountain lion or bear or wolverine popping up in heavy brush or a low light situation. I don't know if one could rely on a one-shot kill in those circumstances. So, I pictured emptying an 8 round magazine in the general direction. On the other hand, I will defer to your advice as a professional hunter. So, my back-up gun would be a SW29 in .44 magnum with the 6 inch barrel--just so there wouldn't be any doubt--with my SW1911 as a second choice. The gun has never even come close to hiccuping.

I wonder if there's an iconic 9mm handgun. My candidates are:

Luger - very accurate though somewhat complicated, famous for its association with Germany of the World Wars.

Browning Hi Power - the final creation of John Browning, enormously widespread around the world.

Glock - leader of the plastic pistol revolution with legendary reliability.

Makarov - probably the best-performing pistol of the group and sidearm of the Soviet Union but largely unknown in the West.

Matt61

 
At July 20, 2009 2:10 PM, Blogger Bub said...

Matt61

First thanks for your AR comments yesterday.

My vote for iconic 9mm goes to the Glock. The plastic guns may lack the sex appeal of metal, but it's hard to argue with its excellent reliability and modern look.

I not saying its the best, but say the word Glock and most people known right off what you are talking about.

Bub

 
At July 20, 2009 2:14 PM, Anonymous Vince said...

Fused, the noise I referred to is the end of the cocking link moving and taking up some play early in the cocking cycle. It should have no bearing on the firing cycle.

Have you double-checked the three stock screws to make sure they're still tight? And are the groups now as good as they used to be?

 
At July 20, 2009 2:48 PM, Blogger Mike said...

BB

Is there a spring rifle that offers more value for the money, better accuracy, more consistent velocity, better trigger, better scope or sights?

I put the word better in quotes because there are so many variables it is difficult to say one thing is better than another.

-Mike

 
At July 20, 2009 3:02 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mike,

Too many subjectives for me to rate any other airguns, but my favorite at close to the same price would be an RWS Diana 48.

No scope and $50 more but I think it offers more.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 3:10 PM, Anonymous twotalon said...

Mr. B
In reference to your last question from yesterday's blog.....

How to get a good touchup on a bad crown without a lathe...

I can't think of a good way to do one with this kind of precision without a lathe. You really need to get the muzzle clean and square so the lapping tool has a good reference point to work from.

Let's look at some of the more common (not too professional or precise) ways of doing this...

Brass screw with lapping compound in an electric drill. ...
Will polish in a new crown, but is based on the centering of the old crown. If the old crown was on center and symmetrical to the bore (square and centered) but there is a little burr or some other anomaly within the first couple thousanths of the old muzzle edge then the screw head might do the job.......because it is referencing on an otherwise perfect crown.
If the old crown does not provide a perfect reference, then lapping with a screw head will mostly polish a bad crown that will still be wrong. However a burr or some other little defect may be removed in the process and improve accuracy to some degree...You have fixed part of the problem, but not all of it.

Grinding in a crown with a Dremel or cutting one in with a drill bit....then following up with the screw and drill...
Again, crown is based on the old crown centering, and can end up even more crooked or off center because of a fast working cutting or grinding tool that is being used free hand. Why?? because nothing is ever referenced to a square, centered reference point.....nothing is guided into perfect alignment.
Most of the time there will be little or no improvement...and possibly you may make things worse with a new crown ..because the new crown is screwed up worse than the original...even if it looks better.

Someone will say that they have gotten good results doing these things. I don't buy it. You need something to be as perfect as possible to build on, or the whole works is just haphazzard.

Hope I made some sense. A bit fuzzy right now. First day of chemo. Hard to arrange thoughts.

twotalon

 
At July 20, 2009 3:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mike,

I have the Mendoza RM-600 and its equivalent, an Air Ventrui Avenger 1100 [also by Mendoza]. Both have been extremely accurate for me, but you may want to read BB's evaluation; he found performance spotty.

I have scoped both of them using cheap rings because the rifles have a built-in scope stop.

Everyone [myself included] who has shot either of my Mendozas prefers them over either my Air Arms TX200 or my Beeman R7, both of which are smoother-operating and more ornamental.

The TX200 is a heavy rifle, and the R7 doesn't have the punch that the other rifles have.

All the guns are .22 cal except for the R7, which is .20 cal.

--Witt

 
At July 20, 2009 3:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,

ok i've got something off-topic for you today, but it's very important to me. i'm thinking about taking the front sight off my Beeman SS1000-S gun (same sight construction as the Teton and RS1 duel-caliber airguns sold from Pyramyd.) and replacing it with a Beeman universal muzzlebrake... but i need to know how to take the front sight off first... do you know how? it looks like just a plastic piece molded onto the muzzle of the gun. but i have no idea of how to remove it without damaging the blueing or crown of the barrel.

John W.

 
At July 20, 2009 3:39 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

John W.,

I sure don't. Nor do I have a gun to look at.

Anyone?

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 3:49 PM, Blogger Fused said...

I appologize if this is a repost - Blogger crapped out last time.

Vince,
No the groups are not as good as they originally were. The sequence was as follows. This weekend over about 50-75 shots the popping would come and go. Sometimes no pop at first like usual but with a pop-gring just before or at sear engagement. I noticed a difference in shot placement on the shots with popping and those without. finally all popping and pop-grinding stopped. Cocking seems normal and the hold sensitivity is as noted previously. My best group yesterday was 3 in 3/16" with 2 fliers for a total of 3/4" (no laughing please, I'm still new at this!) I was thinking that the 3/16" was the rifle and the 3/4" was me because there is a very definite tendency of my groups to have 1 or 2 fliers outside an otherwise decent group. With the artillery hold the groups were consistently 1" spread evenly throughout. Before any of this started, my best groups with this rifle were 1/2" (again no laughing) which I was able to reproduce several times.

 
At July 20, 2009 3:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,
Last week after shooting my Remington 77, I gave it some crosman pellgun oil in the pump seals. I also put silicon oil in the oil port just under the receiver. Now the hammer doesn't seem to bounce as much as it used to and now there is no air left in the reservoir after 6pumps. Is this good?
Shadow express dude

 
At July 20, 2009 3:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bub,

Glock has a lot going for it. My only gripe against it is the weird automatic safety that I don't fully understand. It sounds like the safety is operated by pulling the trigger. Why even have a safety? I suppose it prevents accidental discharges from dropping. But releasing by pulling the trigger seems like not having a safety at all. There's an interesting YouTube video of a heavily muscled officer of the LAPD addressing a class full of kids. Holding up his Glock, he says, "I am the only one in this room professional enough to have a loaded gun." Then, BOOM, he shoots himself in the foot.

Also, there's Jeff Cooper's comment that Glocks are the best weapon for police because they don't spend time learning how to shoot.... I think he was referring to what has been described as the "spongy" double action trigger pull.

Mike, based on my experiences with the B30, I would vote for the RWS 48 (which it copies). If the RWS 48 is better, it must be some gun. I am aware of the many recommendations of the Mendoza rifles. Preferring them to a TX200 is really something. But if accuracy is really important, I don't know how much you can separate weight from accuracy. My B30 is outshooting my IZH 61 even at close range because the heavier weight holds it on target.

Matt61

 
At July 20, 2009 4:00 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

SED,

It sounds okay to me. I assume you meant to say there is no air left in the gun after firing it on six pumps.

B.B .

 
At July 20, 2009 4:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Seals on the 747

BB -
I noticed the problem with around 300 shots since last oiled. When I noticed the leak, 1st thing I did was oil the pump head. Then, adjust the pump lever. Then, order seals. When those arrived, my question here. (This blog is the source of most of my airgun info - thanks.)


Randy-in-VA -
What a site! Thanks

Jim B

 
At July 20, 2009 4:51 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Randy,

Okay. Just going through the procedure.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 4:53 PM, Blogger Randy-in-VA said...

Mr. B - I guess that I had thanked you for the offer, but I forgot to add that I was expecting the adapter last Thursday. The marauder shoots great. I took it to the mountains over the weekend. My 14 yeaar-old nephew was shooting bottle caps at 25 yards with it. I'm still waiting on a decent scope from PA. I've been usind a 3-9X40 non-AO Powerline focussed for 6 yards. I found the 747 site by googling. I don't have a 1077, so you're on your own with that. (Good news is 100,000 Google hits, bad news is Google 100,000 hits.)

Jim B - Glad that I could help. I have a 717, but haven't needed to crack it open yet. I was hitting soda cans at 25 yards with it over the weekend. Oddly enough, it really likes the Daisy Precision Max wadcutters, which are the cheapest pellet that I have found.

 
At July 20, 2009 4:58 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

twotalon,

Again thanks for your reply. I don't have a problem wth any of the air guns, but was wondering about a stubby 38. However, I'm with you and cann't see how any type of free hand recrowning could work.

Hang in there. You've got alot of people praying for you.

Mr B.

 
At July 20, 2009 5:21 PM, Blogger Randy-in-VA said...

BB - That last post took three tries to get published, and I have read more than a few complaints from people sending posts into cyber-oblivian. I think that the main problem is that the Word Verication "expires". By the time that that you get to the end of the day's comments, it's probably already too late. A few tricks that use:

1 - For a short post hit [F5] (refresh) just before you start typing. It will reset the Word Verication. I also highlight my text and hit [Ctrl]-C (copy) before I send it, which saves it to the clipboard just in case. To restore it, put the cursor in the comments box and hit [Ctrl]-V (paste).

2 - For a long post, type it in notepad, then copy and paste it into the comments (right after hitting [F5]).

3 - Also check that the post was published before you put something else in the clipboard. I hit [F5] and re-read my post on the blog. That's the best way to spot any typing or spelling errors!

This probably sounds very basic to some of you, but I'm sure that we have a wider range of computer skills on this blog than we have airgun skills.

Don't give orders that can be understood, give orders that cannot be misunderstood. Patton

 
At July 20, 2009 5:47 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Randy-In-VA,

Re: Scope mount for an FWB 124

The mount made for the FWB 124/127 (and webleys and kodiaks) is the Beeman 5038 for scope objectives up to 45mm or the 5038H for scope objectives up to 56mm. These mounts are also sold under the name of sportsmatch (same mount just rebadged). Pyramyd Air used to carry them (it's where I bought mine!!??):

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Beeman_5038_1_Pc_Mount_w_1_Rings_Medium_9_5_11_5mm_Dovetail/1933

They're still available you'll just have to google "beeman 5038" to find them since I've gotten in trouble before linking competitors to this site.

kevin

 
At July 20, 2009 5:55 PM, Anonymous twotalon said...

Mr.B
Thanks. I only mentioned the treatment because it may make me sound a little wacked out. Hard enough to do good explanations in plain talk as it is when dealing with complicated subjects.

There was some free hand work involved in the lapping process that I used. At least free hand to some degree.... the manipulating handle on the lapping ball was constantly moved around in small circles that were approximately centering around the line of the bore.
the ball sits on the rifling lands to keep it centered for about half the process. When the lap reaches the bottom of the grooves, then a combination of the lands and grooves keep it centered.
Never ever use very much force or the metal will gall. Then you really have a mess.

Tricky stoning the end of the barrel before the lap. Small oilstone is easier to handle than a large one. You get the feel how to press it against the end of the barrel so it lays flat. Be careful here...use the stone first to polish off the razor sharp burr around the outside of the barrel that was caused by the initial squaring process. It's very sharp and dangerous if left on during the stoning process.
Your fingers get very close to the rotating barrel, and that little sharp ridge will slice your fingers really bad.
Also watch the chuck..you are working close to that too. Can catch a shirt sleeve, a ring or watch, or can really crack your knuckles.
DANGER!!!!!Look at what you are doing and and don't let this thig get hold of you.

You have a snub with a problem?
Manufacturing tolerances are a big possibility with a wheel gun.
Each chamber may not lock up perfectly in line with the forcing cone and bore.
Some chambers larger than others.
You end up with bullets that are damaged when things don't line up.

I have an old H&R 49er that is both sloppy, and the cylynder pin mounts the cylynder a little low. You should see how that screws up a bullet. Still shoots good enough for plinking and small game at fairly close range, but is a far cry from my Hi-Standard Model 107 Military..with bull barrel, machined for barrel weights and muzzle brake.
This is an older Hi-Standard...a REAL one.

twotalon

 
At July 20, 2009 6:09 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Randy,

Thanks for your tips on the word verification. Blogger is such bothersome software, but what are we going to do?

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 6:11 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Kevin,

Thank you for finding that 124 mount. I didn't know it was still available.

B.B.

 
At July 20, 2009 6:16 PM, Blogger kevin said...

B.B. & Randy-In-VA,

My pleasure. 7-8 months ago PA had this mount. I've heard some people swear that the BKL's (260?) work well on the fwb 124 using clamping force only. Not sure I would trust it though. The 5038 is rock solid on my fwb 124.

kevin

 
At July 20, 2009 7:00 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Randy-In-Va,

Sorry for my oversight. The sportsmatch mount that is the equivalent of the beeman 5038 (5038H) is a Sportsmatch OP22.

kevin

 
At July 20, 2009 7:54 PM, Anonymous wayne said...

Matt61,

WE DON'T HUNT AT NIGHT!!! We only go to the setup spot in the dark... so we will be there at first light..

It's the journey to the blind or post up site that worries me.

The "offhand does no help in supporting the gun" HHHMMMM.... that's a funny idea.. I'm just using the 10 meter rifle pose adjusted for a pistol.. "bone to the ground is the rule".. the palm of hand, connected to the elbow to body to the ground..

To expect a single hand to hold a pistol at arms length, without moving, seems like a lot to ask... especially when the pistol weighs what the S&W 27 weighs..

.. and weight is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.. absorbs recoil, holds in the exploding round.. so much safer, easier to hold steady..

And yes, my results are hard to argue with!! I thought I was holding the pistol the "right way".. although I didn't look it up or watch others..

I just thought the 10 meter rifle stance way was it for pistols too.. so I started supporting the bottom of the pistol with my left palm and letting my middle finger support under the barrel in front of the trigger guard..


The gun sits pretty solid like that.. then it's just the whole package moving a small amout slowly... which I control or "flow with" and time the trigger pull.

And it's become so second nature now, that I can draw from holster, and "set the gun" and hit a 4" clay at 20 yards 50% of the time in maybe 5 seconds.. followup shots in less, with the same average hits..

anyway works for me.. for now..

but, now I really feel like a ..

Wacky Wayne

but who cares... that's just me! "I am what I am, and that's all that I am" says Popeye the sailor man.. toot toot.. (fart, fart is more like me:)

 
At July 20, 2009 8:48 PM, Anonymous BG_Farmer said...

BB,
A Crosman Field Pointed in .25 ought to be strong medicine. I got up my fancy new target stand (aka scrap wood) at 75 yards today, but by the time I got back to it, it was late, so I was shooting the .177 points out of my 36-2 at it, and they were burying themselves in 7/16 OSB. Not the strongest material, but at 75 yards, it impressed me. At 20, they went right through. For plinking, they're my favorites and cheap, too:).

Wayne,
If you're hitting what you aim at, who cares whether its right:).

 
At July 20, 2009 9:33 PM, Blogger Randy-in-VA said...

Kevin,

Thanks for the info. My cousin and I will end up spending about as much for the scope mount as we did for the FWB 124 itself ($2 for the gun, about $65 for seals and a spring, and $18 for the repairs). We still need to refinish the stock and to put a muzzlebrake on it.

 
At July 20, 2009 9:50 PM, Anonymous Dr. G. said...

B.B.,

For what it's worth, John W. told me last winter that the only reason he stopped making the .25 barrels was that the .25 pellets were not good enough anymore to shoot better than 2" at 50 yards with his rifle. My sense from our discussion was that if Crossman made .25 pellets then he would have kept making the .25 barrels.

- Dr. G.

 
At July 20, 2009 9:57 PM, Anonymous Volvo said...

BB
I can’t recall the fellow’s name, but I ordered your book about the R-1 and his concerning crow hunting on the same order from Beeman’s.

He claimed his R-1 in .25 caliber to be his most accurate rifle. I believe that is the only instance I know of where someone gave the accuracy nod to .25 over .22 and .177. He also stated that due to the more bowed trajectory, he limited his range to less than the .22 caliber and head shots only, as the .25 would also not penetrate wing feathers reliably.
I remember thinking at the time of reading it if you were only taking head shots at 35 yards or less, even .177 would work.
Once again however, .25 caliber is a great excuse to add just one more rifle,no matter how lame the justification..

 
At July 20, 2009 10:04 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

twotalon,

I feel the same way about my Colt Woodsman Match Target another real gun.

Are we going to end up concluding that .22 is better all around because of better pellets and not because it's any more intrinsically accurate?

Mr B.

PS If you preview your post before submitting it you'll be asked for a new word verfication if needed--no lost posts that way.

 
At July 20, 2009 11:49 PM, Anonymous wayne said...

twotalon,

A.) better pellets... B). a flatter trajectory. C.) more choices in guns and pellets...

All of the above equals.. more accurate.. more often ...with about the same foot lbs in the end..

For a shooter like myself, it's really... B). a flatter trajectory.

I've practiced like crazy with the 12 ft. lb. USFT... but the long windy shots are still very difficult for me.. so I tend to go back later with the Air Arms S410 on full power and blast them all down to show the steelies who's boss.. yep.. it's B. for sure!

Wacky Wayne

 
At July 21, 2009 12:33 AM, Blogger BPH said...

B.B.
There I was shopping for shoot-n-c targets at the store and what do I hear??? I hear the host talking about filling up a Benj. Disco with a hand pump!! I hurried to the guns and ammo dept. and there it is on the TV!!! I watched the whole thing--great show--I'll have to subscribe to the sportsman channel just so I can watch it!! I learned two very important things today---open the bleed valve quickly and that I made a huge mistake in wiping off the black grease and replacing it with WD-40!!! oops!! I heard you say Molybdenum something I think--can you tell me how to remedy my error before I, as you put it "cause my pump to fail in short order"---thanks so much!
Bret Hurney

 
At July 21, 2009 5:49 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Bret,

WD-40 dries to leave a yellow varnish on surfaces.

Here is what to do. Wipes off all WD-40, and hope none has gotten inside the pump. Coat the pump shaft with Parker Super O-Ring Lube before using it again. You'll have to Google Parker Super Lube because it's not sold in most stores, but it is the finest o-ring lube I know of.

Don't use the pump until you have done these things.

B.B.

 
At July 21, 2009 5:55 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Dr. G.,

Thanks for that insight from John Whiscombe. I will be testing the rifle at 40-50 yards, so we'll see.

B.B.

 
At July 21, 2009 8:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,
Could you please do some test shoots with the .177 barrel, too?
I guess its even more accurate than the other calibres.

Greetings,
Jonas

 
At July 21, 2009 8:30 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jonas,

That's not part of this report. But what I will do is add a .177 test in a separate report, because several people have expressed an interest.

B.B.

 
At July 21, 2009 10:19 AM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

Wayne,

Gotta take exception to your comment that a flatter trajectory makes a gun more accurate, cause that's really not true.

The midrange trajectory of a 45-70 shooting at 1000 yards is about 75 feet. Cann't call that flat!

A flatter trajectory means that you don't have to be as good at estimating the distance to the target.

Mr B.

 
At July 21, 2009 11:22 AM, Anonymous wayne said...

Mr. B..

Ok.. I'll go with that..
For me.. I become more accurate with a flatter trajectory, because I don't have to estimate the arch or rise and drop of the pellet..

Wayne

 
At July 26, 2009 10:27 AM, Anonymous Jim Tidwell said...

I have a crosman 2260, love the rifle, but want more umph! Who can I send it to to have the boss gas valve installed over the factory one? I am more than willing to get fewer shots per powerlet for the increase in power!

 
At July 26, 2009 10:37 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jim,

You can try Crooked Barn:

http://www.crookedbarn.com/

But remember that CO2 has limits.

B.B.

 
At July 26, 2009 12:15 PM, Anonymous Jim Tidwell said...

Thanks B.B., I understand about the limits, woulld just like a little more if possible. Thanks for your great collum and the info.

 
At July 26, 2009 12:36 PM, Blogger BPH said...

B.B.
Thanks for the advice on the Parker Super o-ring lube--I'm in the process of getting some. BTW, with all this talk of loopy trajectory, I wanted to see what I could do with my .22 Disco at long range. After Zeroing at 50 yds. and hitting some poker chips--I decided to go as far as the property would allow--93 yds. I was shocked at how much and how quickly the pellet drops!! I had to adjust the elev. on my scope all the way up 160+ clicks!!(bush. 4-12x40) and I was still 13" low!! I held over and after about 6 shots I hit the beeman kodiak xheavies tin (probably why the pellet dropped so much)--but the greatest part was that the pellet still passed through both sides!! Impressive power. Thanks again for your advice.
Bret H.

 
At July 28, 2009 11:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

would like any thoughs on the crosman 1100 trapmaster

thanks vin

 
At July 28, 2009 11:26 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vin,

The Trapmaster 1100 is a CO2 shotgun with two power levels. It has a .380 bore.

It looks very realistic and handles like a light shotgun. Power is pretty low, but suited to Crosman's plastic targets.

I did a five-part review of air shotguns and the Trapmaster was part 3:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/10/air-shotguns-part-3-crosman-trapmaster.html

B.B.

 
At July 29, 2009 3:05 AM, Blogger tyler said...

Hi im a little new at this. Im looking for a gun that can shoot a quarter mile a way and still penitrate if that exsist. can you let me know?

 
At July 29, 2009 5:46 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Tyler,

Are you looking for an airgun that can do that (shoot a quarter-mile and still penetrate)? Because if you are, it will have to be a big bore.

Tyler, a quarter-mile is 440 yards. The question is whether YOU can shoot that far and hit what you are aiming at. Most shooters cannot hit a man-sized target when shooting 440 yards from a bench. The bullet from an air rifle will drop over one-hundred feet traveling that distance. Probable over two-hundred feet.

Yes, there are big bore airguns that will shoot that far and still penetrate when the bullet (not pellet) gets there, but you failed to specify WHAT you wanted to penetrate.

B.B.

 
At August 15, 2009 1:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello all air-gun friends! Even JSB begins to offer their famous Exact pellets as 6.35mm/cal.25 version JSB EXACT KING!

Check JSB Exact King in their home pages:
http://www.schulzdiabolo.cz/en/news/34-exact-king-cal-25.html

 
At August 15, 2009 6:40 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

That will be worth a test when we get it here in the U.S.

B.B.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home