Gas spring accuracy
by Tom Gaylord from Pyramyd Air” /> Gas spring accuracy
, airguns report post” />

Friday, December 21, 2007

Testing the Gamo Whisper - Part 8
Gas spring accuracy

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7

Today, I'll test the accuracy of the .177-caliber Gamo Whisper with a gas spring conversion. Before we do, though, there are a couple of things to clarify. I said in the last report that the piston was replaced with the gas spring conversion, but that's not the case. The original piston stays in the gun. Also, Pyramyd Air has worked out a deal with Gamo that the original warranty remains with the gas-spring rifles.

Please remember that this rifle now has the GRT III trigger from Charlie da Tuna, so the trigger-pull is greatly enhanced. It also has the Gamo scope that comes with the rifle. It's not clear at the 25-yard range I'm shooting.

On with the test!
I moved outdoors for this test so I could shoot at 25 yards. That was the range at which I tested the original rifle in Part 5. Only, on this day, there was a stiff breeze blowing, so I had to wait for it to pause or die down before shooting. I used the best pellet from that test, hoping that the gas spring wouldn't make a difference, but I was wrong. The most accurate pellet with the factory rifle was the Gamo Match, which grouped as tight as 0.325". Well, the gas spring shot the same pellet into about one inch. So, I switched to the new Air Arms Diabolo Field domes, which we know are really JSBs. The description says they weigh 8.44 grains, but mine averaged 8.3. However, they grouped only a little better than the Gamo Match, so I switched to Gamo Master Points. They were all over the place, with three shots going into 2", so I stopped without finishing that group. Time for reflection.

What was different?
This was a different rifle from the standard Whisper I tested (I mean this was not the first test rifle converted to a gas spring, but an entirely different rifle altogether), plus this one had a gas spring instead of a coiled steel spring. I had cleaned the bore with JB Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound and the bore felt smooth, which is not scientific, I know, but it felt just as smooth and good as the first rifle. Since I had no idea how this new rifle compared in accuracy to the first rifle, I concentrated on the pellets instead. I mentioned in the Webley Patriot report that a gas spring can blow the pellet skirts into the barrel walls, so maybe that was happening here. The correction is easy enough to apply - just start shooting pellets with heavy skirts or pellets made from hardened lead. I chose Beeman Kodiaks.

Close, but no cigar
Kodiaks tightened up the groups right away, but not to the extent I had hoped. Instead of an inch, they tightened to three-quarters of an inch, which is going in the right direction but not far enough. I was running out of Kodiaks, so I opened a fresh tin of H&N Baracuda Match - those Kodiaks by another name that Pyramyd has had on sale for over a year. I laid in a supply because the price was so low, and I alerted all of you, as well. I hope you acted on it.

I now started fooling around with the placement of my off hand. Resting it out by the forearm tip gave me three-inch groups, so that was out. The flat of my palm in front of the triggerguard gave me three-quarters of an inch, but no better. Then I remembered the backs of the fingers! Success!


The forearm has a raised area in front of the triggerguard that helps you locate your off hand. I balanced it on the backs of my fingers for best results.


Finally
The first group measured 0.614" and was strung vertically - an indication that the hold is not quite right. I found a slightly different way to rest the rifle on the back of my hand and voila - a group measuring 0.469". After that, I shot group after group under a half-inch. Best group of the day measured 0.441" Not bad for outdoors with gusty winds at 25 yards. The sweet resting spot on a Whisper has a ridge in the center of it, so you can feel when you're in the right spot.


A nice target with some vertical stringing. Measures 0.614". Still need to adjust the hold a bit. Shot at 25 yards with 5 Baracuda Match pellets.



With the hold adjusted, the rifle groups like this in a stiff breeze. 0.441" at 25 yards.


Nothing says I've found the absolute best pellet for this rifle. All I do know is that it'll probably be a heavy pellet or one made from hard lead. Maybe 10.5-grain Crosman Premiers will be best. But what I do know is that this rifle is a sheer joy to cock and shoot. The cocking is so smooth that I don't have the words to describe it. And, the firing is light, quick and as smooth as any tuned spring gun you've ever shot.

Hunters rejoice!
The fact that the Whisper likes heavy pellets should be comforting news to airgun hunters who want to use .177s.

95 Comments:

At December 21, 2007 7:05 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB, did you try the 7.9gr Premier in this gun?

 
At December 21, 2007 8:22 AM, Blogger pestbgone said...

B.B.,
OK. I think you've already answered this in this and your previous Whisper blogs, but please induldge me. LOL
1. Would you say that the gas spring in this gun is EASIER to shoot ACCURATELY than the coil spring?
2. You said this has a constant cocking force, which I guess you mean starts stiff, rather than building up?
3. To measure cocking force, you said you put the butt of the rifle on a bathroom scale and read it as you cock the gun? Did I get that right?

BTW, as you suggested, I re-read the power plant efficiency section in the Cardew book. I had to make a few assumptions, but the big Patriot weighs in at 35-40% effecient, near as I can tell. As many times as the energy has to change state before the pellet leaves the barrel, maybe 40% is pretty darn good!
Thanks,
Pestbgone

 
At December 21, 2007 8:53 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince,

No I didn't. Was I supposed to?

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 9:00 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Pestbgone,

No, I don't think a gas spring is easier to shoot accurately than a coiled steel spring - it just feels so much better. There is no spring torque or sideways twist, that some guns like the RWS Diana 48/52 have in abundance.

To measure cocking force of a breakbarrel, break the gun then pul the muzzle on the center of a bathroom scale (or as close to the center as you can without marking the finish of the barrel). Then push the butt down to break the barrel and cock the gun. I've learned to not go to full cock each time, so I can repeatedly push down and relax and get a better idea of what the effort really is.

Remember, the effort required doesn't include the scale's bouncing, so be as smooth as possible.

Yes, the gas spring is stiff right from the start. Even though it takes less force, it feels like more.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 9:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

how about trying a bugbuster on it? I think that might change the groups.

ROBERT 1250

 
At December 21, 2007 9:25 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Robert 1250,

No doubt a better scope would improve the group size. That would be true for either mainspring.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 9:28 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

Well, you should try the Premier only if it will shoot well in this gun. Otherwise, don't bother!

Seriously, though, all my Gamo's seem to like Premiers better than Gamo Match. Since this particular Whisper seems to have some different preferences than your first gun, I thought that perhaps the Premiers might be more to its liking.

 
At December 21, 2007 9:31 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince,

I'll give it a quick try and if there is something worth reporting, I will do another report. I promise to do this, but no report if I don't see that it warrants it.

Okay?

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 9:37 AM, Anonymous mech said...

Does anyone make a gas spring piston for Crosman? I have a Remington Genesis that although problematic at first is starting to become a nice rifle. I just want to make it the best that it could be.

Also, Charlie Da' Tuna has posted on his site that he wants to tune a cheap air rifle, just to see what type of wear it suffers from due t lower quality. I was thing about sending my Genesis to him, he'll get to examine a cheaper gun, and I'll get something a little smoother.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:00 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

You have just uncovered ramification three! Are you following the gas spring story close enough to guess what I'm saying?

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:02 AM, Anonymous mech said...

Hugely off topic but I couldn't wait to tell everyone. I just found this on the Baikal site for you Drozd fans.

http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/info/12867.html

It's called the "Blackbird" and EAA said that they'll start distributing them in February, so Pyramyd should get some soon hopefully.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:12 AM, Anonymous mech said...

BB,
no

Well, I have been reading your blogs on this topic but I just had oral surgery earlier this week and my meds are hampering my short term memory. Its been really annoying, especially for my family.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:35 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

Ramification two is the fact that, besides the Whisper, the gas spring fits nearly every other smaller Gamo rifle made. I'm talking about Shadow-class and Hunter-class rifles.

Ramification three is the fact that when the Chinese copied air rifles for Crosman, what models did they copy? The Gamos, of course! So the gas spring fits many of the Crosman breakbarrels, including the breakbarrels they make for Remington!

Are you beginning to see what a really BIG DEAL this thing is? It doesn't just fit one or two airguns. It fits over a dozen!

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:54 AM, Anonymous mech said...

BB,

Thats fantastic. I know you said that Pyramyd is not selling them yet, but do you have any estimations on when they will these pistons, and on how hard they will be to install.

 
At December 21, 2007 11:20 AM, Blogger pestbgone said...

B.B.,
Thanks for your answers about measuring cocking force and the accuracy/smoothness.

Your ramifications number 2 and 3 are very major. Looks to me like a gas spring concept should work in just about any gun that does NOT utilize a center latch rod in the piston. Of course, it would have to be of the proper dia, shape, stroke, length, force, etc. Look how many different springs Macrrarri offers.

The wheels are turning!
Pestbgone

 
At December 21, 2007 12:07 PM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB, this gas ram will almost certainly fit the Quest derivatives (Quest, Summit, Phantom, etc.) because the guts are largely interchangeable with the Gamo guns.

The Genesis might be a different story. I believe THAT rifle is based on the old Legacy 1000 action, which is altogether different.

Then again, though - I wonder if fitting a gas ram might be a whole lot easier than fitting a coil spring.

Correct me if I'm wrong... since they have constant pressure (as opposed to an increasing pressure) when compressed, there'd be no concerns about getting the proper preload. And since they don't have to fit over a spring guide, the diameter is only an issue insofar that the ram will fit into the guts of the rifle. So ultimately a gas spring just has to be able fit inside the gun, accommodate the piston stroke, and be long enough so that it isn't loose when the gun is uncocked.

If this is the case, a single gas spring should be able to fit a wide variety of guns... needing nothing more than the right sized spacers to keep it centered and preloaded in the powerplant.

 
At December 21, 2007 1:39 PM, Anonymous stabbs said...

BB-
This is totally off-topic, but can you explain the advantages / disadvantages of using a sidelever or underlever vs. a breakbarrel? I am more concerned with the overall accuracy for .22 at medium range (50-75 yards)

 
At December 21, 2007 3:38 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

I don't think they will ever sell the gas springs by themselves. They want to control, the quality of the work.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 3:39 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince,

That's pretty much it.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 3:44 PM, Anonymous stabbs said...

BB-
Another random question for you. I am considering getting a Diana, but there seems to be problems with the scope mounts. Have you considered using a double stick tape between the mounts and the dovetail to increase friction & reduce slippage?

 
At December 21, 2007 3:46 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

stabbs,

You left your question as a podcast topic, too. I think it's a better blog. So it's going on the long list of blog topics.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 3:57 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Stabbs,

If epoxy won't hold the scope mount I don't think double stick tape will, either.

I'm working on a fix for all Diana airguns made since 1983. It should be on the market in another 4 months.

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 4:08 PM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB, if a single gas spring can be made to fit a wide variety of unrelated rifles... you're talking about some serious potential for volume sales as an aftermarket fitment!

I hope pyramyd reconsiders their position on selling just the spring...

 
At December 21, 2007 4:38 PM, Anonymous scott298 said...

B.B. --Scott298 here-haven't spoken up in a while=hope you and your wife are enjoying the holiday's and wish the two of you a great new year. I was reading the e-mail from pryamyd about the rws460 and the big thing is the velocity spread that appears in print from the manufactures and the actual velocity that the average consumer experiences. Since air gunning seems to be increasing in popularity it seems that the consumer is being hoodwinked by the manafactures as to what there guns can do----this relates to false advertising-(which is illegal) isn't it? There should be some type of commission or regulatory agency that would verify the velocity of the guns being produced and advertised. Then we would not have the false claims and a lot of consumers would not be hurt in the wallet buy buying a gun with a listed velocity that isn't so. This sport is on the brink of going to the next level-I feel the only thing holding it back is false claims by manafactures and no recourse by the consumer. I would hate for uncle sam to step in but how else can we get rid of these mis-leading representations?

 
At December 21, 2007 5:17 PM, Anonymous Nate in Mass said...

Scott298,
Your "velocity commitee" sounds good. But it seems like it would just complicate things more. lets say Gamo adverises a rifle at 1200 fps(they do). Sure the rifle would not get this with good lead pellets, but it could get it on a detonation with a PBA pellet. Would they still be lying if it were possible?
I agree that velocity sells. I had a friend recently buy a Gamo which he said was better than the others because it shot faster. I attempted to explain the downfalls of such velocity but he seemed oblivious. He ended up buying the rifle and loving it. I wonder what he'd think if he owned a chronograph?

Nate in Mass

 
At December 21, 2007 5:22 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Scott298,

I think what we are doing here is taking care of the problem, don't you? The people who own chronographs are probably also reading blogs and forums.

The others don't know what velocity they are getting, so everyone is happy.

I know that it seems we are being bamboozeled by false advertising, but actually I get results surprisingly close to and even over the published velocity many times.

On a brighter note - Merry Christmas!

B.B.

 
At December 21, 2007 8:25 PM, Anonymous Kyle said...

Scott298,

Your suggestion for a regulatory agency for velocity kinda reminds me of what auto manufacturers are doing now since early this year. Previously manufacturers measured their engines horsepower with their own test equipment and under their own conditions. Now the SAE (Society for Automotive Engineers) is observing dyno runs on engines (A dyno is what measures horsepower and torque---like a chrono for an airgun) to get SAE certified power ratings. Maybe there should be an SAV (society for airgun velocity) to regulate velocity advertising haha.

Merry Christmas, Kyle.

 
At December 21, 2007 10:55 PM, Blogger Robert said...

BB,

If PA won't sell the gas spring, and it's not feasible for A person to send the air gun to PA for the upgrade,what options do we have?

Does anyone know who or where A gas ram for the Rem Genesis can be obtained?

Mech, I had ups and downs with my Genesis also, But after 1500 or so pellets It's turned into A nice shooter. How do you like yours?

 
At December 22, 2007 7:16 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Robert,

This gas spring is new to the market, so there are no other options. Perhaps in time things will change.

B.B.

 
At December 22, 2007 8:55 AM, Blogger Robert said...

BB,

I certainly hope that PA does change their mind. If they put the gas ram in say 250 conversions A week, That means A good hunk of change for them.

But I'm sure that if they offer it as A conversion kit, they would probably triple or quadruple their sales.

From what I've read on this one blog, it appears that A lot of guys want the gas ram as an upgrade for rifles that they already own. I know I do.

BobC

 
At December 22, 2007 1:14 PM, Blogger derrick38 said...

BB,

Lurker here. With the manufacturers throwing velocities like 1200 and 1500 fps around, true or not, they're unintentionally inviting federal regulatory intervention. At what point will these just become "guns"? Especially to a bureucrat who doesn't like "gunners"? Think about that and all THOSE implications.

 
At December 22, 2007 1:18 PM, Anonymous mech said...

robert,

I really like mine. I had allot of trouble with it up until just recently. It's very hold sensitive and pellet picky, a match made in hell for pellet a rifle. I had to replace the scope mount because its stop pin wouldn't line up with the port in the gun. I also had to replace the stock because it the 2 screws that hold it to the spring housing pulled right through the stock while I was cocking it one day. While I was replacing the stock, I found a busted e-clip in the trigger assembly. And yesterday when I was trying to sight it in at long range, I noticed a chip in the scope's ocular lens that wasn't there before. Its extremely loud, detonates all the time, and vibrates like mad.

But I really like the look and feel of this rifle, and I didn't want to give up on it. Fortunately, It has been detonating far less and the groups have been tightening up as it breaks in. Its still loud and vibrates allot, that's mainly why I want to get a gas spring, and have this rifle tuned.

I have a hobby of taking lower end guns and working on them to turn them into real performers. The down side to this is that by the time I finally get a gun shooting the way I want it to, I could have just bought something a few steps up and still come out ahead in the finance department.

mech

 
At December 22, 2007 1:34 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

derrick38,

Senator Bob Dole did airgunners a favor in the 1980s when he introduce the Dole Act that is now law. It prohibits federal, state and local municipalities from declaring an airgun to be a firearm. Several states appear to violate this law, or to walk the line, but they have never been challenged.

However, you express an opinion that many others hold, an opinion that is also concerned about big bore airguns will real killing power.

On the other side of the argument is the fact that this is the USA, where the rights of citizens are held in high regard.

There is no easy path between the two extremes of having rights and exercising them.

B.B.

 
At December 22, 2007 1:46 PM, Anonymous mech said...

derrick,

When a manufacturer says that a pellet gun can shoot at 1200 fps, then all that gun has to do is shoot ANY projectile at or near 1200 fps.

When Gamo introduced the Raptor they changed all of their listed airgun velocities from those taken with lead to those taken with PBA ammo. A 1200 fps Gamo rifle will normally shoot a lead pellet at about 900, and a PBA at 1100 fps. If you purposely make that rifle detonate, you will most likely reach or exceed 1200 fps with a Raptor. If they really wanted to, a manufacturer could produce an ultra light polymer pellet, purposely cause the rifle to detonate and fire a 1000 fps gun at 1500. A pellet gun detonation can be dangerous, and an ultra light pellet would be rather useless in the real world, but now they have a new advertising campaign.

From a legal stand point, if you can some way, some how, do something once and have the documentation to show that you did it, then you can advertise as much as you want.

It's wrong and fraudulent but it's legal.

mech

 
At December 22, 2007 2:03 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

Well said.

B.B.

 
At December 22, 2007 2:11 PM, Blogger JoeG said...

Hia BB and Company

Has Anyone had problems shopping this year? While on my christmas shopping chores I ran into several needy homeless guns that followed me home. Its never a problem and I always welcome them into my home with open arms and hands but my wife thinks that I'm a softy and pushover. Sometimes explaining that I can't just keep bringing home these unfortunate works of art, and the resposibility is not mine alone. My reply would always be someone needs to care for them, and I dont mind its not a real burdon plus there are many a kind folk who would do the same.

Example - One store must have had 100+ Red Ryders I felt obligated to take one home for my son and I. While at the same location there was a refurb Crosman AM77 - for $40 it was just a begging to join the group. And then there was that NEW Airgunner looking for his first gun for him and his son. Must of spent 40 min with him sharring information about proper safty and diffrent styles of airguns. He was most gratefull and took home a Daisy 953 and info about the PA Blog Hotline in case of any other needs.

Example 2 - Spent an hour or so at another location only to have an RWS P5 Magnum stow away in my shopping cart. Met another new airgunner who was thinking of buying the company named chinese import with an overly large cheep scope, but I interveaned and he happily rescued an RWS 34 w/no scope (since the store did not carry one). As the "real" salesman was steering him down the path of Gamo Raptors - I had to open my big mouth again. Someone has to look out for these people I thought. I quickly explaind the use of diffrent pellets and he picked up a few tins that were much more suited for his needs. When I was finished I wished him and his family a Merry Christmas and told him about Pyramydair.com Blog site.

So as you see we need to be kind and unselfish during this wonderfull season, and hopefully it will carry us all year through.

JoeG from Jersey

 
At December 22, 2007 2:18 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Jertsey Joe,

Dasher and Dancer aren't your next of kin by any chance?

Homeless airguns indeed! I thought after I established the western sanctuary for wayward airguns that the job was done. Apparently more rescue workers are needed.

B.B.

 
At December 22, 2007 8:01 PM, Anonymous mech said...

I have been wanting to get another air rifle for a while, so today I went on Pyramyd to look at some. I came across the Gamo Whisper which reminded me that this gas spring blog was part of the Whisper review, so I reread it.

Basically, the sound suppressor on the Whisper does little to lessen the sound of the rifle. It does decrease the sound of the air exiting the barrel, but the bulk of the noise generated by a springer comes from the spring. Therefor the silencer on this air gun, though functional, is not useful.

I expect that Gamo has patented their BATF design, so that no other company can copy it. This is unfortunate because Gamo seems set on only producing spring rifles. This suppressor could really shine on a gas gun, as the main source of noise from a gas gun is caused expanding gas exiting the barrel.

Gamo does manufacture CO pistols, but those don't have the power to be used in a hunting or pest control role, in which a sound dampener would be nice to have.

PCP rifles are powerful but expensive. I think that Gamo should introduce a line of suppressed CO and multi pump rifles that have plenty of power, yet are still affordable to the average person.

mech

 
At December 22, 2007 9:58 PM, Blogger Robert said...

BB, Mech, JoeG,

It would be to much like right for Gamo to listen to us.

What's wrong BB? I adopted 2 air rifles myself last week, they were lonely, anemic and weak, so I'll be giving them a steady diet of CP's until they feel better.HoHoHo!

On the money Mech.

BobC

 
At December 22, 2007 11:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,
Does the gas spring conversion affect the loudness of this Whisper in any way?

Alan

 
At December 22, 2007 11:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,
Never mind my last question - I got your answer in Part-7.

Alan

 
At December 23, 2007 7:29 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

The quiet guns you want are already being made. The AirForce Condor with an Airhog frame extension is about as quiet as a powerful PCP can get. And the Air Arms S410 sidelever is another quiet, powerful gun.

Gamo used to make CO2 rifles and maybe they will again some day, but you don't have to wait for quiet. It's here now.

B.b.

 
At December 23, 2007 10:45 AM, Anonymous mech said...

BB,

I was thinking of something more in the Whisper's price range. AirForce and Air Arms rifles are double its price. I would like to have a Talon SS, but I don't want to spend $475 and get only the gun. I'll undoubtedly spend that much on a cheaper gun, trying to get it to shoot like a Talon, but I can at least do that over a period of time.

When I was in college I was a salesman in a gun shop. We always had a hard time selling any airgun over $100. We could usually sell a $200 Gamo, or something similar, to the guy who's looking to do some pest elimination. But the only time we could ever sell a high end model was when someone came in specifically looking for one. That was rare.

I understand that when people come to Pyramyd they are looking specifically for quality airguns, but I'm talking about selling to everybody, not just a niche market. Most shooters want a silenced gun, and are willing to pay extra for it. However, there is a limit to how much people are willing to spend. In my experience, people draw the line on airgun prices when they exceed that of a quality rimfire. Because of this I think that retailers would make more money selling cheap suppressed airguns than expensive ones.

Honestly, when I first say the AirForce line I told my self that I would own one eventually but I want a something cheap to play with for the moment.

mech

 
At December 23, 2007 1:11 PM, Blogger andreas said...

B.B.

This is an off topic question since I cannot find the proper article to ask this.

Do you know if the Walther Dominator LG1250 28 Joule version can be turned down to 16 Joules to get more shots? - i.e. is there a power regulator on the rifle?

Also, will you be able to review this air rifle soon? I cannot find all the technical information I want for this rifle - the main question is the one I asked above...

Thanks a lot for your time, and I hope you get the time to write an article for this.

and btw I liked your big suprice regarding the gas rams. I ve been thinking of putting a ram in my CFX from the day I got it.

 
At December 23, 2007 3:23 PM, Anonymous Nate in Mass said...

mech,
I would also love to see a suppressed CO2 rifle. Something with good looks and velocity. Then again I would also love to see an accurate multi-pump with a shroud that i could scope and get awsome groups with. Dream On. lol

Nate in Mass

 
At December 23, 2007 4:25 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Mech,

I forget what we are talking about, but the average airgun sale has climbed from $100 to almost $200 over the past 10 years. It's just due to economics, not to better sales campaigns.

B.B.

 
At December 23, 2007 4:30 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

andreas,

I will test the 1250 Dominator when I can. I don't know much about it yet.

B.B.

 
At December 23, 2007 6:55 PM, Anonymous SteelNotClay said...

i know i'm off topic...

I have a qurstion, here in Italy the air gun guys are seen like terrorists by most people, and because of this we need a license for firearms as for over 5.53 foot-pounds (7.5 joules) air guns.
I' going to get that licence, but i need to know what is the quitest air gun in .177 in the 900-1000 fps range, because i need to be quiet to not get bothered by my neighborhood, who, like almost all in Italy, hate guns and the ones who uses them.

I'm really sick for this idiotic moron 7.5 joules limit in my country, that i'm thinking of going away of this country.

excuse me for my bad english and my babblng about limits.

SteelNotClay

 
At December 23, 2007 8:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB:
For a while I've been considering the 2240/2250/2250XT, etc family of Crossman airguns but I'm a little confused.

Is the 2250 a 2240 with a longer barrel (and shoulder stock and scope)? Or is there a difference in the 'base' gun/ frame?

I have seen the "Air-Source" powered 2250XT and I'm somewhat interested but I want a gun that shoots 12 gram C02 cartridges too. Is it possible to modify a 2240 or 2250 to use Airsource as well as 12 gram CO2 ? I suppose one could go the other way around and modify a 2250 XT to take 12gm bottles...

Anyway one complaint I heard about the 2240 is that it's loud, so I'd probably go with the longer barreled 2250 IF it's the same base model gun. If not, I'd go with the 2240 and get a longer barrel.

Oh- does theshoulder stock (replacement grips) for the 2250 fit the 2240 (to make it a small carbine)?

Thanks

 
At December 23, 2007 9:37 PM, Blogger derrick38 said...

Thanks for all the great info guys, I really appreciate it!

 
At December 24, 2007 4:55 AM, Blogger Michael in Florida said...

Crosman Anonymous,

The 22xx series of guns all use a 7/8" diameter air tube, have the same grip frame, and have the same diameter barrels (7/16") What makes them so versatile, is the interchangeable parts. Yes the 1399 stock fits all 22xx and 13xx series guns.

The 2240 is a pistol with a 7 1/2" barrel, while the 2250 is a rifle (longer air tube, added forestock) with a 14" barrel.

The 2250XT does not lend itself to being modified, so it's really only set up to use the 88 gram Airsource carts. The other 22xx guns can be easily modified to accept bulk fill CO2 or you can add an adapter to use a paintball tank, or large capacity CO2 tank with an umbilical.

Regards,
Michael in Florida

 
At December 24, 2007 5:44 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Michael,

Thanks for that answer. You saved me a bunch of time researching the facts.

B.B.

 
At December 24, 2007 6:05 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

SteelNotClay,

The quietest .177 air rifle that shoots 7.9-grain pellets faster than 900 f.p.s. is the Air Arms TX200 Mark III. The BAM B40 in .177 is just vas quiet and just as accurate.

Those are the two quietest airguns that don't have silencers.

An AirForce Condor with an Airhog frame extension is quieter than those rifles, but it would be too difficult for you to get in Italy.

Merry Christmas!

 
At December 26, 2007 9:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see Pyramyd has the rammed Whisper for sale already.

Any plans to do the Big Cat so we can the same basic rig for less $$?

 
At December 27, 2007 6:40 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Big Cat,

I will soon publish a list of guns that can be modified. The Big Cat is on the list.

B.B.

 
At December 30, 2007 11:36 AM, Anonymous scott298 said...

B.B.-Scott298-can you forsee a gas conversion kit for a rws350 (mine is in .177) If were one were to come out for this gun what differences would you suspect it would make. Also in terms of accuracy are all guns just as accurate in either caliber-.177 and .22. Im not refering to the walmart variety but the better guns-air arms, beeman rws Thanks Scott298

 
At December 30, 2007 12:01 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Scott298,

I think that someday there may be a gas spring for the RWS Diana 350 Magnum.

Accuracy is an iffy thing. I've seen Lothar Walther barrels in .177 that couldn't keep up with .22s, and I've see the reverse.

I don't make general statements about accuracy, except that the .25 caliber is not as accurate as the other three, in my experience.

B.B.

 
At December 31, 2007 9:13 AM, Anonymous scott298 said...

B.B.--Scott298--if one were to apply moly to the exposed part of the spring(on a springer rifle) while it is out of the stock then reassemble the rifle is it safe to hold down the trigger and cock the rifle a number of times to spread the moly around or do you just have to be satisified with cocking and shooting the rifle every time. I'm refering to this without taking the action apart just swabbing the spring where ever I can thru the slot-thanks scott298

 
At December 31, 2007 9:34 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Scott298,

It really won't spread that way. Oil will spread, but moly grease won't. You have to complete;ly disassemble the rifle to grease the mainspring.

B.B.

 
At January 09, 2008 8:58 AM, Anonymous Hellrazor said...

BB, I am currently working on an article about the need for a new breed of pellets for the high velocity guns. All seem to bulge the skirts of lead pellets. Even my enhanced 1977 Sheridan bulges the H&N Field and Target at 883 fps. Other than the hardened pellets, all pellets seem to suffer skirt bulging. This results in huge friction in the barrel, loss of velocity and loss of shape for accuracy. What we need is a lead core or lead in the head of a hardened pellet for low friction, maintaining shape and accuracy at distance. Weight is not the only factor in high velocity. By the way, the H&N Field and Target .20 is basically the same shape as the Barracuda Match and I did stock up. Shooting an average of 1000 pellets a month for physical therapy, I go through a lot. Even the Daisy Max Speed, the GAMO Rocket and the Crosman Fireball showed extensive skirt blooming. Though the long pellets did hold better accuracy over distance. By the way "Hellrazor" is not a bad word, it is my father's SB-2C Squadron from WWII. I wear his Disney patch on my own leather test pilot jacket. Hope it doen't offend.

 
At January 09, 2008 9:03 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Hellrazor,

Be sure to keep us posted.

B.B.

 
At June 26, 2008 8:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay Tom, ive read all 8 of these and i now want a gamo whisper even more, but i am still undecided, should i get the gas spring version or not? i plan on hunting with my whisper and for small game you need an accurate gun and i alo plan on doing target prcatice and again ineed some tight groups. what do you recomend?

CritterController

 
At June 26, 2008 1:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

also, BB, i have the Beeman RS1 rifle, the .177 cal with the synthetic stock and scope, if i braught this to some one who knew what they were doing could a gas spring be installed into it

CritterController

 
At June 26, 2008 1:47 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CritterController,

There's a lot more to installing a gas spring in a gun than just dropping it in. It has to be long enough, have the cocking linkage attachment at the right point and it has to interface with the trigger and the safety.

If the Beeman RS1 rifle is the same as a rifle that currently uses a gas spring, you probably can do the conversion. If not, there's no way to do it.

B.B.

 
At June 28, 2008 8:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thank you i wasnt sure how that worked. ive read all 8 of the gamo whiper blogs and i now want a whisper even more, but i am still undecided, should i get the gas spring version or not? i plan on hunting with my whisper and for small game you need a very accurate gun and i alo plan on doing target prcatice and again ineed some tight groups. what do you recomend?

CritterController

 
At June 28, 2008 8:54 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CritterController,

There will be no accuracy difference between the gas spring and the steel spring. The gas spring version will feel much smoother. The steel spring gun seems to cock much easier.

I like the feel of the gas spring when it shoots, so that would be my pick.

B.B.

 
At June 28, 2008 12:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you. I am glad that it shoots smotther, it is better for off hand shooting. i also like that you can leave it cocked for a long time. i dont mind the cocking effort. i will chose the gas spring version then. can a gas spring be ruined if accidentaly dry fired? i will probably be getting this gun.

CritterController

 
At June 28, 2008 2:35 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CritterController ,

It is just as bad, if not worse, to dry-fire a gun that has a gas spring.

B.B.

 
At October 21, 2008 12:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,

Know you've off to show soon, but would 0.22 caliber with gas spring shoot better than the 0.177? In other words does 0.177 shoot so fast so as to have problems with sonic barrier, which the 0.22 wouldn't have?

Herb

 
At October 21, 2008 2:40 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Herb,

I see no caliber difference. The .177 Gamo Whisper works well but to .22 doesn't. Go figure.

B.B.

 
At October 29, 2008 5:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,

After reading this series on the Gamo Whisper, I am quite interested in getting a gas spring version. I was leaning toward a .22, but am somewhat confused by your 10/21/08 response to Herb. Can you please elaborate on how .22 gas spring whisper compares to the .177 version? If you like .177 better, how does it compare to a CFX that has a gas spring installed?

Thanks and Great Blog,

SJ

 
At October 29, 2008 5:47 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

SJ,

In both models, .22 caliber is not performing as well as .177. My choice would be the .177 Whisper with a gas spring. The CF-X is not as light and smooth as the Whisper, with or without the gas spring, so I would go with the Whisper for smoothness of the firing cycle.

B.B.

 
At November 09, 2008 10:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,

After reading your blog on the transfer port, could you speculate if the transfer port is the problem with the 0.22 version? (It would seem probable that the two versions use the same size transfer port which may not be a good thing.)

Also would modification to the gas spring benefit from a change to the transfer port too? It would seem that the spring could change how power is delivered to the pellet. Faster or slower I'm not sure. But either way it doesn't seem like the power would be delivered exactly the same.

Herb

 
At November 09, 2008 7:52 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Herb,

The differences in performance between calibers are too small to bother with. And it's cheaper to make the guns one way.

B.B.

 
At November 19, 2008 12:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.,

RE: Hold sensitivity of Whisper w/gas spring


Doesn't it seem odd that the gas spring hasn't(?) improved the hold sensitivity?

Does the gas spring radically improve hold sensitivity on any gun?

The pellet obviously can't start moving until after the piston (being driven by gas spring) starts moving. Does the piston hit the end of its travel before the pellet exits the barrel?

Herb

 
At November 19, 2008 1:00 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Herb,

The common thinking is that the piston comes to the end of its travel and stops or bounces back before the pellet starts moving.

The Cardews (father and son) tested this in their book "The Airgun, From Trigger to Target"

B.B.

 
At January 19, 2009 11:55 PM, OpenID gbmotorsports2 said...

BB

It's Gino with great news.

I bought a Whisper before reading part 1 thru 8. LMAO I should have searched earlier and I always knew there was a following on this rifle. It is worthy of a spot on the collection as the first Gamo Whisper and I know a better version will come out one day for sure.

WOW ! What a difference the air ram is. I shot a friends Gamo Whisper with the spring version and one with the air ram version and was clearly sold on the weight and other features of the gun besides the silenced report etc.. I called it my "Black Air Gun" and one thing I noticed, after a lot of pellets (3,000 plus) the gun settles and gets quieter on the report, at least it seems like it. Being farther away is more noticeably quite than shooting it for sure. Paul's chrony shows 77 db on it versus 90 plus so there is a difference.

I was holding off for awhile before I get another springer rifle due to the pair of TX200 MK3 that I have but the Black Air Gun (Gamo Whisper) kept calling me as my friends come over and shoot with me so there you go I bought one.

I will help with a blog report on the Gamo wwhisper after I shoot a lot of pellets (Crossman premier domed 7.9).

talk to you soon

Gino

 
At January 20, 2009 12:05 AM, OpenID gbmotorsports2 said...

I forgot one detail and it is a must for any Gamo rifle.....

Oh and yes I did order the trigger upgrade at the same time and that is the main reason I bought a Gamo brand. I did peak at the Panther pro compact and lots more but if not for the trigger replacement I would still be waiting coz the TX200 MK3 is at the top PERIOD.

..............ATTENTION..........
For all you gun lovers, everyone should have an all around go anywhere rifle that can withstand drops abuses etc.

The age of synthetic all plastic air rifle that shoots better than most guns with metal and wood (done the old way) are here upon us. Times are changing and it is for the better. Just choose your weapon wisely ;).

thank you again

Gino

 
At January 20, 2009 9:11 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Gino,

Since you are obviously happy with it your newly acquired Gamo Whisper is great news!

I've heard wonderful things about the gas ram vs. spring in the Whisper. You've just confirmed the gas ram is better than the spring version since you've been lucky enough to shoot both.

Assume the new trigger you're talking about is the grt? Did you install it yourself?

Your comments and experiences are interesting and should be shared with more people. The two comments you've shared are attached to part 8 of the terrific article B.B. did on the Gamo Whisper in 2007. Not many people check back on the comments for an article written over a year ago.

Please join the current/active comments that are filled with airgunners like you sharing ideas and asking questions. You can access the current discussion here:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

Look forward to hearing from you there!

kevin

 
At October 13, 2009 2:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What gun is better for hunting? Gamo whisper with gas spring or crosman npss. I would probably upgrade the scope on the whisper to a centerpoint 3-9x40 any way so dont worry about the cheesy scope it would be replaced if i got a whisper.

 
At October 13, 2009 3:22 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

There is no "better" with these guns. Both are accurate and quiet. The NPSS has the lighter trigger and the Centerpoint scope already, so why not go with it?

B.B.

 
At October 20, 2009 8:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

im wondering what is higher quality and what will last longer. price really doesnt matter as long as it stays around 350, I'll probably hunt rabbit and squirrel.

 
At October 20, 2009 10:22 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Anonymous wondering about higher quality, what will last longer around $350.00 to hunt rabbit and squirrel,

RWS 34. Higher resale value too, but you didn't ask about that.

kevin

 
At March 21, 2010 11:40 AM, Anonymous Matt said...

Okay so I had decided to get a gamo whisper and upgrade the scope and the trigger with a GRT but I have read several reviews on other sites saying that the newer production whispers come with the plastic triggers and are not compatible with the GRT trigger and are also harder to tune. I hope it isn't true and that gamo isn't spreading thier new triggers to the whispers. If they are they just lost a customer.

Matt

 
At March 21, 2010 12:17 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

The new Gamos will not accept the old trigger upgrade. Look here:

http://www.charliedatuna.com/Testimonials%20GRT%20III%20Trigger.htm

B.B.

 
At March 21, 2010 1:42 PM, Anonymous Matt said...

Thanks for the quick reply B.B and thanks for all the great work you do.

It would have been okay if the new trigger was an improvement but from what I have read it is not. Have you had any experience with the new trigger B.B.

Thanks Matt.

 
At March 21, 2010 2:13 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

No, I have no experience with this new trigger. Sorry.

B.B.

 
At March 21, 2010 5:56 PM, Blogger Bobby Nations said...

Matt,

Bob (aka Charlie Da Tuna) is co-founder of the Gateway To Airguns forums, and he has set up a Gamo-Only section. There are probably a number of posters there who have reviewed the new Gamo triggers. Either searching or posting a question about the new triggers should get you lots of information about them. It's a very friendly bunch over there.

 
At March 21, 2010 7:06 PM, Anonymous Matt said...

Thank you both for the information. I checked out the site and doesn't seem like thier are many positive opinions of the new trigger. B.B. do you know when they switched over to the new trigger or if I could get one with a steel trigger from pyramid still. If they did or if they would check for me I would definently pick one up. It would be a little ahead of schedule but I would realy like one. Thanks agian for the quick and informative replies.
Matt.

 
At March 22, 2010 6:19 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

Gamo switched to the new trigger style in 2009. Larger dealers like Pyramyd Air will have sold out the old-style trigger earlier, smaller dealers take longer. So there still may be a few new guns with the old-style trigger out there somewhere.

Call Pyramyd Air about checking, but I'm pretty sure they cannot spend the time to do that. They have hundreds of guns in the warehouse. What would you pay them to spend three hours and find nothing?

You would be better off buying used, so you know for certain that you have gotten the trigger you want. Better still, consider brands other than Gamo that have good triggers right now.

B.B.

 
At March 22, 2010 11:22 AM, Anonymous Matt said...

B.B.,
Thanks agian for the quick reply. I kind of figured the larger volume dealers would be out of them. I liked the gamo because of the lower noise level. I live in an urban area near a large natural area that hasn't been developed yet that has lots of rabbits and other rodents that venture out and onto our property. The gamo wouldn't disturb the neibors as much.

The other guns I was considering where the RWS 34 panther and the gamo cfx but thats out now too. I gues I need to find some place to hold the rws and see how it feels in my hands.

Any other recomondations B.B. for an accurate gun that can take care of some pests while not being extremly tough to cock so I could also go out and go plinking for a few hrs as I'm only 5'9". I'm looking at staying under $300 initialy and investing in a good scope down the line if I can't get it with the gun initialy.

Thanks agian,
Matt

 
At March 22, 2010 12:09 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

Yes, I have another recommendation. Go to the Crosman website and read my report of the new Benjamin Legacy. You can only buy the gun direct from Crosman. I believe it's everything you want in one gun. It's a .22, so count on that in your decision.

B.B.

 
At March 22, 2010 12:24 PM, Blogger Bobby Nations said...

Matt,

Here are my recommnendations in no particular order. I've weeded out the Chinese clones and will try to give the country or origin. The criteria I used are .22 caliber, 12 ft-lbs or more, size, non-Chinese, shrouded if possible, less that $300. You already know about the RWS 34P, so I'll leave it off the list.

- Remington Nitro Piston Short Stroke [America]

- Norica Storm [Spain]

- Winchester 850 XS22 [Turkey]

- Air Venturi Avenger 1100 [Mexico]

These all fly under the $300 budget fairly easily. The ones that don't include scopes should leave enough in the kitty to pick a nice leapers or tasco to fit your bill. They all have good reviews on their triggers, so you shouldn't be disappointed there. And the build qualities are said to be good.

Were it me, I'd by the Remington NPSS as it has very good reviews and comes with a gas piston that is perfect for hunting. The only real knocks on it have been that the thumbhole stock pinches folks with large hands, but at 5'9" you shouldn't have that problem.

Hope this helps

 
At March 22, 2010 12:31 PM, Blogger Bobby Nations said...

Matt,

If I understand correctly, the Benjamin Legacy is a lower powered version of the NPSS that has been sized to give 12 foot-lbs of energy. In comparison, the NPSS runs at about 16-18 fpe. B.B. will correct me if I'm wrong.

In short, we both recommend a version of the NPSS. The Legacy will probably be a better all-day shooter/plinker while still having the power to take small game and pests.

Here's B.B. original review of the NPSS.

 
At March 23, 2010 1:57 AM, Anonymous Matt said...

Thank you everyone for the quick responses. While working outside in the yard today I found the need to head down to ACE hardware to get some irrigation supplies. While there I thought what the heck I'll go look and see what they have in thier sporting goods section and see what they got. They had a gamo whisper and with thier permision and a borrowed magnet I starting checking thier whispers for a metal trigger. Much to my suprise the one in the second to the last box did so I picked one up.

When I got home I quickly finished fixing the sprinkler system and the two new flower beds the wife wanted and started sighting in the gun. All I can say is wow. I'm very impressed with the accrucy of this rifle and love the feel of it in my hands.

Well thanks agian for all your help B.B. and thank you to everyone else who replied. Your help and input is very much appreciated.

Once agian thanks,
Matt

 

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