S&W 586 & 686 pellet guns – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

Before we begin, I have an announcement. Very soon, Pyramyd Air will be launching a new social website for airgunning. When they do, I’ll be responsible for the pages that deal with technology, training and technical information.

I’m telling you this because in the past few months, we’ve had some very useful and powerful reader comments that really should be saved and archived for posterity. An example came in the day before yesterday, when Chuck gave us a good rundown of optional peep sights and scopes that fit (and don’t fit) and work/don’t work on the IZH 61. That’s the sort of stuff we need to keep handy, because there are thousands of those rifles out there and people are asking about them all the time. If someone were to do a nice guest blog on tearing one down and tuning it, we would put that right next to Chuck’s post. And then there was the comment some time back about how to diagnose magazine problems and how to remove the barrel for cleaning.The list just keeps on growing. All on just the IZH 61!

So you see the value of this. I could locate and post the dozens of scope-mounting and sighting-in blogs I’ve done so a person could make some sense of all of them. Imagine being able to locate ALL the spring-gun tuning blogs in one place!

On to today’s report on the Smith & Wesson 586. The 586 is the blued version of the gun and the 686 is the silver gun. I think Wayne, for whom this report was written, has been very outspoken about his approval for this pellet pistol. He absolutely loves it and thinks it’s a wonderful addition to anyone’s airgun collection. Wayne, if I’m putting words into your mouth, please correct me.

I happen to agree with Wayne on this. The 586/686 has to be shot to be fully appreciated. Photos and words won’t convey the feeling you get when you hold the gun in your hands. I’ve said the same things about the TX 200, and you see what new owners have to say about them!

Last time we looked at the gun and how it works. Today, we’ll do velocity and accuracy. The gun I tested had the 6-inch barrel. An 8-inch barrel will get higher velocity and potentially a trifle more accuracy, though that’s just a reflection of the increased sight radius. The velocity gain, however, is fact.

RWS Hobbys–shot double-action
At the time of the test (1999), RWS Hobby pellets weighed 6.9 grains. They averaged 410 f.p.s. in the 586 fired double-action through the 6-inch barrel. I allowed 10 seconds between shots for the temperature to stabilize, and the ambient temp was 68 degrees F. The spread was 391 to 434, and at the average velocity they produced 2.58 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

RWS Hobbys–shot single-action
Hobbys averaged 406 f.p.s. with a spread from 391 to 422 when fired in the single-action mode. Ten seconds between shots. Muzzle energy works out to 2.53 foot-pounds.

That’s pretty close performance between single- and double-action. Usually, a gun like this would have done noticeably better single-action.

Chinese blue-label wadcutters–shot double-action
This is a target pellet that I used in 10-meter competition, so I used it in a lot of my tests back in 1999. It weighs 7.6 grains. The average velocity in double-action was 370 f.p.s., with a spread from 356 to 389. Muzzle energy works out to 2.31 foot-pounds.

Chinese blue-label wadcutters–shot single-action
In single-action, these pellets averaged 367 f.p.s., just 3 f.p.s. slower than double-action. The spread was 352 to 387, and the muzzle energy was 2.27 foot-pounds.

The 586 I tested was a very stable air pistol, but better still was the accuracy, which I had to see to believe.


Chinese blue-label wadcutters delivered this tight 10-meter group from a rested gun. H&N target pellets did about the same. This is 30 percent tighter than the next-best Umarex pistol can shoot, and it’s the reason I like this model so much.

A word about the metal in the guns
After I published that short bit about not over-tightening CO2 screws when loading cartridges, I was amazed at the number of people who said they were doing just that! So I have to say something about the metal these guns are made of. They’re not ordnance steel, like the firearms they copy. They’re made of a zinc alloy that casts very well, which is why they can make them for so little money. Because of that, you can’t bang the guns around and that especially applies to the circular clips– those things we call the cylinders.

I’m mentioning this because at a public demonstration someone dropped one of the clips from my gun and dented a corner next to a flute. Zinc alloy always does that, so you have to be careful when handling the clips of any of these air pistols.

And handle them correctly!
At the same public demonstration, I watched a guy not close the cylinder properly and then try to shoot the gun double-action. He jammed the mechanism, and if I hadn’t been there he was ready to complain to the world that the gun was faulty. I know because I caught him in his windup. Another fault a new shooter might have is inserting the cylinder into the gun backwards. It works only one way because the ratchet teeth for the hand are only on one side of the clip. It’s important that you review the mechanism before you start shooting a lot.


I mentioned this in the first report, but didn’t show it. Barrel swaps make the S&W a versatile system.

How much longer?
Back in 1999, Umarex had some plans to bring out another big revolver after the 586. There was talk about the Colt Anaconda, but sales of the 586 were not encouraging enough to warrant the expense of another revolver. The action pistols seem to sell better, and the complexity of a revolver means it has to cost a little more. In this game, a little is a lot, so Umarex never went there and they probably never will. In fact, I’ve been asked by the owner of the company if I thought there would be continued sales of this model, because after the initial surge, the 586 has lagged behind the rest of the pistols. So far, it’s hung on, but I don’t know how much longer that will be true.

Then, without fail, we will have to listen to some airgunner who is not buying one right now but who will be lamenting the passing of a classic on that day. It’s happened too many times already. You now know what I think about them.

More importantly you know what Wayne thinks!

137 thoughts on “S&W 586 & 686 pellet guns – Part 2



  1. Goodmorning B.B.,

    I hope that the social website doesn’t cut us off from the social interaction that we have with you now.

    Kevin,

    You’re the man sir. I wonder how many of the readers know about the number of questions you answer that relate to old blogs and the way you direct those folks to join us here. Thanks from all of us for our new friends.

    Volvo, congradulations and enjoy!

    Mr B.

    PS Made a big pot of beans for dinner last night and the word verication is flaci–go figure.


  2. BB, Glenn Seiter at Umarex told me that under the skin, the Beretta 92 and the Colt 1911 were essentially the same. Do you know if that’s true?

    Second, do you know how they ‘blue’ the zinc alloy?


  3. bb i read your blog evry day and i think thats a awsome idea and i got a questoin i use a dasiy 880 and im well beond the skill level of that rifle and i can hit a 1 inch bull eye stadnig up with a rws 75 from about 30 yards 3 out of 5 times i dont know if thats good or not but my friend said because i was looking and guns only a little more acurite than i am my friend says i should get a gun like tx mk3 a used rws 75 or 54 and that i shouldent under estmate myself and get the best i can get and he said it would be cheaper geting a gun like thos that last a life time than the daisy’s i have been geting that last a few mouths i trust him because his rws 75 is old and it still shots good but do u think its a good idea to skip all the ok guns and go for the gold even if i dont think my skil level is that great he said i would shoot better just because i would not think i was a bad shot when it was the gun that wasend acurite so i would like you to respond if u have the time i know your highly busy and if u think i should get a gun from a good brand like airfforce,rws,airarms then geting a gun that might not enspire confdense well i didnt mean to drag this out so thank you.
    im 15 6,2 and if u said yes do u think some of the rws might be to big for me and my friends 62 thank you again so much and again sory to drag this out. David


  4. David – This isn’t a text message, please use punctuation and spell check. I read your entire comment and have no idea what you are asking, I can’t imagine BB or anyone else does either.



  5. David,

    I love the TX 200, so I agree with what your friend says, except this. There are a lot of lower-priced airguns that are plenty accurate and can give you hours of enjoyment. My pick of them might be the RWS Diana 34 Panther. It takes a lot more skill to shoot that airgun well than it does to shoot a TX 200 well, and the TX will out-shoot the 34, but not by that much.

    You are young. Try them all.

    B.B.


  6. Hi David,

    Your friend’s advice was spot on. Get the best that you can afford, take good care of it and it’ll last a long long time. As a reader you know what B.B. thinks of the TX200 MkIII. However, half the fun is the process of reading, studying and talking with different people before making your purchase. Enjoy and let us know the what and why of your choice.


  7. Anonymous,

    Please be gentle with someone like Dave. We want him and the rest like him to stick around and grow in our sport. Yes, my kids’s text messages to me sometimes drive me up the wall.


  8. BB:

    Is the difference in velocity between single and double action just random error, or is there something else going on?

    How about a Part 4 on the 1088 blog that explains how to replace the upper seal for the CO2 cylinder? It sounds like more than a few of us have bad ones. For tightening things, I use the “NASCAR Torque Wrench” – Crank it down till it strips and then back it off half a turn.

    David:

    Just mix in a few commas and a blank line or two. It doesn’t have to be good enough for English class, but us old folks have a hard keeping our place in a long paragraph.

    Word Verification is “plingals”, maybe a reference to Mrs. BB.


  9. thank you sory about my spelling im a very bad speller thanks bb for the help. i will get the 34 but i dont know if kittry tradeing post will have the panther so would the one with a wood stock be ok. i have read alot about both guns and seen the video on pyramydair. and i know u must of said the panther over the one with wood stock for a reasin. and thank you again alot for all the advise u guys have given me. im very sorry for my bad grammer. ,David

    P.S. did u do a post on the rws 350 i read all the posts last week and didnt see andthing about ti but i could be mistakein.


  10. i just rembererd what that u said in a post that a new shoter need a acurite gun so they know its them and not the gun.

    That close to what u said in the post i think but i am sorry for asking a question when maby i shold of looked throgh the post again, David

    P.S I tryed to make it easyer for you guys to read.


  11. The new website sounds like it has great potential. An encyclopedia comes to mind. Some questions that always crop up could be answered once and for all. For example: “What is duct seal? Is it the same as plumbers putty? Can I get it locally?” How many times has this and many other questions like it been asked since you started the blog in 2005? Hat’s off to Pyramyd, and to you BB for taking this to the next level!



  12. Randy,

    The difference in velocity between single and double action has to do with the hammer’s release point. Usually the hammer is released earlier in its arc in double action, causing a shorter hammer fall and less inertia opening the valve.

    B.B.


  13. David,

    Yes, the wood-stocked 34 is just as nice as the synthetic-stocked Panther. I just like the Panther’s slimmer stock profile and of course the slightly lower price.

    Tell my good friends at Kittery Trading Post that Tom Gaylord says, “Hi.” I used to call on them when I worked at AirForce.

    B.B.


  14. Folks,

    David tip toed around a question that intrigues me. I’ll ask his question a different way.

    QUESTION: What is a decent ratio of group sizes from bench rest to standing so that the rifle is not limiting training?

    The whole point in my mind to do bench rest shooting is to see how good the rifle is. A bench rest is going to be better significant better than what I’ll get standing, or knelling. Probably about equal to what I’d get with good prone technique. (A blog on this someone???)

    I think we’d all like to have a rifle that is better than we can actually shoot. But certainly if my group size is only 50% bigger standing (ie 1 inch bench rest, 1.5 inches standing) then it seems I certainly should get a better gun to improve. With that ration half of my error from standing would be from the gun, and half from the standing position. It is hard to train to get better when the limiting factor is the equipment. Continuous improvement is what it is all about. David is certainly well beyond my Crosman 760 which shoots “patterns” not “groups” (got to love the phrases that BB uses!).

    Herb

    PS – A warning for you David. Leave this blog and don’t come back. Leave now while you still can. The rest of us old geezers have now become addicted to reading this blog. It is terrible to wake up in the morning shaking, just waiting for the 5:30am publishing time so that you can get another fix. ;-)


  15. David,

    I’m envious of you. You’re 15 and beginning down the path to learn what guns YOU feel are the best (best built, best finish, best accuracy, etc).

    First, realize that there are now over 1,000 articles attached to this blog. Most were written by B.B. (he has a vast amount of airgunning experience) and most are about his hands on experience with an airgun. On the right hand side of the page is a blank box that allows you to type in what you want to search for. Example, “34 panther”.

    Second, although you may research and read another mans opinion about a gun your experience is what counts. You may not have the same opinion when you shoot the gun. Selling your gun and trying another is a large part of this hobby. Experience teaches us that there isn’t a perfect tool, there isn’t a perfect car and there isn’t a perfect gun. You may find one that is perfect for a job but there isn’t one perfect for all occasions.

    B.B. said it best, “You’re young. Try them all.”

    kevin





  16. B.B. and Pyramyd Air,

    That’s great news! Just checking back to keep this wandering torpedo on course is critical. B.B. is the glue that keeps this intact.

    kevin


  17. David,

    Another question for you. What pellets are you using?

    (1) There really is a difference in quality between them.

    (2) Different guns just like different pellets for some strange reasons that no one understands.

    Herb


  18. Re: Peep sights

    I bought the AR-15 type sight from Pyramyd to put on my Steyr LG100. Firstly, it has Weaver mounts and secondly the range of elevation adjustment is too small to be useful for airguns. I made a mount convertor out of a clamp-on mount for an IZH-46 and then made an adjustable front sight that allows for sufficient vertical adjustment.

    What is needed in the “catalog” and specs for sights are better information on the mount and the elevation range and clicks. (1/8MOA clicks are pretty useless for an airgun, for instance).

    Also, you should put in a link to Chuck’s review of sights — I could not find it using the search feature.


  19. i use like premers light and heavey rws superdomes rws hobbys and rws meisterkuglen standerd and jsb exats the best in 880 were the premer heaveys.

    and thank you guys for all the kind words
    David



  20. Herb,

    I was shooting this morning while it was snowing and a thought crossed my mind. At least what is left of it. You know how us geezers are. I wonder how many snowflakes it takes to influence the path of a spinning pellet? :)

    Kevin,

    I noticed your answer in what looked like maybe Arabic to me. You are a true renaissance man.


  21. David – I think you should go with the Benjamin Discovery. I don’t own one myself (yet) but it’s a great price and will be easier to shoot accurately due to the lack of recoil that you find in a spring piston gun. Plus it’s cheaper than the MK III and probably more accurate than the RWS 34.

    I own a cheap springer myself and from my experience with that gun and everything I’ve read about the Discovery that’s the gun for you. Your buddies won’t know what to think when you wheel out a hand pump and start out shooting all of them!!

    -Aaron


  22. David,

    Welcome!

    There is hope for us folks who can’t spell without the aid of the computer.. but it means more work.. sort of like pay me now, or pay me later.. either way it’s more work.. but you and I have to do it.. or we are not living up to our potential, and worst, we degrade the places we comment.. You’ll find the folks here patient (they sure have been with me)… but let’s you and me do our best to make it readable.. It takes me probably 3 times longer to post a comment than Volvo or Kevin or someone else.. but that is the price I pay for not learning to spell when I was young..

    Just take the time to let the computer help you.. And, then we can all help you in the “Air Gun World” with more ease..

    And not to worry, some of us bad spellers and writers, grow up to own businesses!!

    On your gun choices.. If you have potential to compete, and want to someday, then find out if you want to use a PCP, (pre-charged pneumatic) or a springer, or both..

    A PCP has no recoil, and so is much easier to shoot with accuracy.. and if you want to shoot springers.. I’ll add the HW-77 or 97 to the choices.. the HW-77 is my favorite so far, or at least a tie with the TX200.. The TX200 is more beautiful, but not more accurate.. they tie for me on that count.. the TX200 will hold it’s value over time better.. If you got one now, and kept it nice for 30 years, it would probably be worth 5 times what you pay for it now..(save the original box, and take care of all of it)!!

    Or, you can do like me, and lots of others, who buy and sell to find what they like and want to keep.. more fun, but more costly too!! I hope you have a good cash flow, if you plan on reading here very much!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  23. Aaron i dont think i could out shoot my friends i only got 3 friends and there all 40 and older because no one at school likes me.

    plus i could get a co2 tallon ss for $430 plus the scope

    only a little more than the benji and i would prefer co2 over hpa

    but i think ill get a rws 34 for now.

    the one with thw most toys in the end wins.
    David


  24. B.B.

    Your not wrong about my love of the 586.. When it's in your hand, it's totally different than any other air pistol I've held or shot. (Which is not that many yet, but I'm working on it!!.. at least the crosman line).

    It doesn't feel like an air pistol, except, when it's fired…
    B.B., I'm getting 390fps avg with the JSB 8.4 with my 8" barrel 586.. the same as the 7gr hobby.. go figure!!

    Do you find it easier to shoot the S&W 586 offhand, than the Crosman 2300s, for example? For some reason, maybe the heavier weight, I do best offhand with the 586.. It also might be the simple, but easy to use open sights.. I don't know, do you?.. it's just more steady and easier to sight.. I doubt that the gun itself is more accurate than the 2300s, but I do better with the 586-8..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  25. Wayne -

    You are an awesome dude. You are the airgunner I want to be. You see a gun you want and you buy it. I must say you make me extremely jealous though. If I was in Oregon and not Michigan I think I’d be at the Ashland Air Rifle Range just about every day.

    Here’s a question for you, i’m getting enough back in income tax this year to either buy the TX 200(and probably won’t have enough left to get a new scope although I do have a 3-9×40 AO Leapers I could put on it), or the Discovery gun, scope, and hand pump combo. My thoughts are this, if I get the TX200 I know I’m getting one of the finest spring guns ever made. I know I’d have to pay just about as much for the Disco once I get the hand pump and scope (if I get the TX my RS2 is gonna be without a scope)but I know it’s only an entry level PCP. Knowing that you own both guns, I’d like and value your opinion, or anyone else who reads here for that matter!

    Thanks a lot guys, this blog is awesome.

    -Aaron


  26. wayne-my friend said that i would be good at 10 meter target.

    he is teaching me how to shoot by seeing the pellet hit the target and how to contrrol hart beat and all that but the learning to control the heart beat is hard.and i will say hello to them for you bb.i desided that im going to sell some of my video games to get some money because why play a game when i can do the real thing.

    David


  27. David – Don’t sell yourself short!! I think I remember you saying your friends shot spring guns. With a PCP and some practice you might just be surprised what you can do regardless of how old you or they are!

    And don’t worry about the kids at school, it’s my experience 15 year kids are fickle and don’t like much of anything. Get your airgun, get on this blog, and you’ll have lots of friends!

    -Aaron


  28. aaron thank you very much for all the support but im about averige when it comes to shooting

    and it any of u guys dont know what i mean tell me and i could try to tell u better because sometimes i dont know how to put in words what i want to say. David


  29. B.B. I already own a S&W 586 so please stop trying to entice me to buy one. I know I'm the only guy on this blog who hasn't bought every gun there is on the market, yet. I don't think I can take much more of this. :) :) :)

    (Actually I'm anxious for part 2)

    I like the 586 very much and some day I'll write about it because I think my reason for having it is different than most on this site.

    Joe in MD,
    I will be finishing a blog post on the IZH-61 sight thing that will be similar to my last comment on that, with pictures. Soon – so if it passes muster, it will be in B.B.'s hands and published whenever he feels like he needs a day off.

    David,
    Be careful! I have already spent more money on airguns because of this blog than I ever thought I would, and I don't think I'm done by a long shot. Is that a pun?

    -Chuck







  30. David,

    Something for you to consider about using CO2 guns is that they don’t work very well when it’s cold outside. I shoot from a room that has no heat piped into it and my CO2 powered guns arn’t worth shooting right now–outside temp is 35. Herb can explain why the CO2 is like that, if you ask him.


  31. BB …is the airgun whisperer!LOL WE all want Wayne to adopt us. FrankB P.S. Kevin,I’m not busy this summer if you wan’t help w/ the 400 yard range….


  32. BB,just read what you wrote back yesterday.I didn’t mean using the circles for holdoff,just might work for range approximation.even that will be like re-inventing the wheel.sorry I was thinking aloud[in print] FrankB


  33. bgfarmer. CowBoyStar Dad here. You mentioned the other day that the link I provided would not work. I think it is because it was an exceptionally long link that originated from the following:
    http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/air-rifle-design-pdf.html
    One thing bg…I truly wasn’t trying to yank your chain concerning any studies done on the twist rates of airguns. You stated your opinion and my reply was only to say that I feel it has been researched…no harm intended.
    Anyhoo, the pdf in question (in the above link) is titled ‘interior ballistics of a spring air rifle’, but there are a number of very interesting pdf’s that I think many here will find informative.



  34. B.B.

    I thought this was the social website… The indexing idea sounds good with one example in isolation, but it’s not easy to put into execution. The problem lies in cross-indexing and how far you go with it. Even the Library of Congress doesn’t get it right to everyone’s satisfaction. I guess the criteria is how much work it will take to put together something that will be of use.

    I was curious about the comment about zinc alloy. Do you mean that the entire pistol is made of this including the barrel? And is that true of other airguns? I thought that all airguns had steel barrels.

    Herb, did you ask about a common ratio of standing groups to benchrested groups? B.B. did a rough estimate of this once of a ratio of something like 7/2 which I found confirmed in my own experience. Also of interest in that same post is that some state champion shooter was capable of shooting 3MOA offhand, a feat only equaled (in B.B.’s experience) by an Olympic gold medalist. I believe that I shot an offhand group of 3 MOA once with an air rifle at 15 feet, but at the range, the best I could do was 8 inches with the M1 at 100 yards.

    On the subject of the Discovery, it occurred to me that if the pump is the same price as other pumps, then you’re going to be stuck with this $200 cost if you are going to get into PCPs. But, if that’s true, then the price of the Discovery rifle alone is about $150. Inconceivable! That’s the price of a B30 which is already an outstanding deal as far as I’m concerned for a PCP which will shoot inside of an inch at 50 yards! For someone who already has a pump or some kind of compressed air system, this seems like a no-brainer.

    All, did you know that the Romans did not use punctuation?

    Matt61


  35. Actually, I see that the Discovery by itself retails at $239, so less fabulous a deal for those with an air source but still very good.

    Matt61


  36. David,

    I vote for the RSW 34 also. I think mastering a spring gun should be a prerequisite to owning a PCP.

    You will feel a great sense of accomplishment when you become proficient with a spring gun.

    Did you get a snow day today?

    Aaron,

    I don’t have a sense of your current line of airguns, but I would vote for the Air Arms TX200, as it is world class while the Discovery is just adequate as a PCP. Make your next purchase in a year or two possibly the new Marauder or other PCP.

    I have found one quality rifle much more satisfying to own the several average offerings.
    Also quality will always be a sound investment, as Wayne noted.

    Matt,

    I Pd $278 for a Discovery with pump delivered to my door. At that price the value was strong. As the Marauder becomes available I would expect that price to be more readily available again.


  37. B.B.,

    a few weeks ago, I asked a question about an accuracy problem with my IZH-61 and you suggested cleaning the barrel with J&B bore paste which required removal of the barrel. How do you remove the barrel?

    Thank you,

    Doug


  38. thank you guys you have given me alot of advise today and no i didnt have a snowday i had a half day and i was to lazy to want to get up at 5:00 on a half day ,David

    im takeing a brake i stared reading the posts at 6:30am and its 3:14pm and i didnt get breakfist yet because i was buzy reading so im geting breakfisr to

    David, P.S im determend to read all the posts!!!!!!! i learned alot this week from them so far.


  39. David,

    You have impressed me. You’ve done some homework in researching airguns.

    Knowing about the talon and you’ve obviously done a little research on CO2. The vast array of pellets you’ve tried is excellent. Too many shooters don’t try enough different kinds of pellets in their guns before giving up and calling the gun inaccurate.

    I vote, along with Volvo, for the RWS 34 for all the same reasons. It’s harder to learn the hold, follow through and relaxation techniques to shoot a springer like the 34 accurately but these are lessons that will remain with you throughout your shooting life.

    I wasn’t liked in school either. Makes you stronger and more independent. Great qualities to have in the days ahead of you.

    Keep learning and chasing your passions and you will leave those other kids in the dust.

    kevin



  40. Mr B.,

    Calling me a renaissance man is like putting an elevator in an outhouse. Just doesn’t belong.

    You made me smile and I really appreciate it.

    kevin



  41. Could some one please reccomend a good laser sight for the crosman 357 co2 pistol? im not too worried about cost as long as it isnt as much as the airforce sight.

    thank you,
    cjk


  42. whats this about a .14 caliber air rifle on pyramid air? im just saying isnt .177 small enough? .177 pellets are plenty cheap enough for plinking and .177 is hard enough for hunting purposes, so why go smaller?
    george


  43. An index doesn’t have to be exhaustive to be useful. How about one for “Product Reviews”? It could be broken down to pistols, rifles, scopes and mounts, accessories, etc. and it would be a treasure trove for anyone trying to decide what to get (or what to get next). I think it would help Pyramyd’s business imho.


  44. Frank B.,

    You would be welcome at my home in the mountains. Since the airgun fever I don’t take the firearms to the range very often but it’s only about a 15 minute ride on the atv’s. What are the chances that you will be in Colorado this summer?

    kevin


  45. David,
    You’re following the true path to airgun nirvana, not only getting advice from the best (BB), but also shooting the way God intended (on your hind legs).

    Matt,
    Not only did the Romans not use punctuation (in general), they also did not usually put spaces between the words or mix “capital” letters with miniscules in texts (scrolls and early codices). Just reading the text can be difficult at times, unless you have one where some monk put dots between the words later.


  46. Doug,

    Re: Barrel removal from a IZH-61 for cleaning

    There is a differance in removing the barrel depending upon whether your receiver is plastic or metal. Here’s a link that will explain both procedures. You’ll need your owners manual to identify parts numbers. If you don’t have a manual go the the Pyramyd Air website and click on the IZH-61 gun, the manual is on the lower left. Here’s your link:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1054986361/Barrel+Removal+from+IZH+61-

    kevin





  47. Chuck,

    I’ve done some checking on a replacement disc for your beeman sport aperture. Even spoke to my friend Mike Driskill (The peep sight king).

    The beeman/williams sport aperture has SAE threads (US). They probably are 7/32-40. Merit discs fit these aperture sights. The adapter I pointed you to earlier will convert the SAE threads to accept European discs and iris’s (like gehmanns). Here’s an article, with a picture of the beeman/williams sport aperture sight sporting a merit replacment disc:
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1049852052/What%27s+the+best+sport+aperture+sight+you+guys+think+there+is-

    kevin


  48. BB,
    I think the reason sales lag behind is the crosman revolver does many of the same things for a fraction of the price. The reason I'm not sold on the umarex S&W is the expense, shape (I'm not a huge fan of the real 586, I do however like the colt anaconda), and caliber (if it is to be so big, make it .22 caliber).
    Just my 2cents.
    Shadow express dude


  49. Randy in VA,
    The seal is very easy to switch, I have never had to replace one, but I was curious so I went with it. See the brass screw? Unscrew it with a screw driver. Then take out the seal with a paper clip, behind the seal is a filter. Leave that in and just swap the seal.
    Shadow express dude


  50. BB,
    I forgot to mention. My new pro77, when low on co2, sometimes released a very small amount of gas halfway through the trigger pull. Whats going on, I’ve never had this before. Very happy with it otherwise.
    Shadow express dude


  51. Hey Group,

    as threatened, I’m reporting on the progress of disassembly of my RWS350. Having completed my almost “cabinet quality” spring compressor, I removed the action from the rifle stock, pulled the plastic end cap and safety off the end of the actions compression or spring tube, removed the cocking lever from the spring tube by breaking the barrel slightly and maneuvering the lever to the access hole in the bottom of the compression tube. Out the cocking lever popped. Once installed in the compressor, I put minor tension on the trigger assembly which protrudes slightly from the tube and the retaining pins literally pushed out with minimal force. Upon disassembly, I found the spring appears to bein good shape – no bends or breaks and the seal has no cuts or cracks. However, everything is pretty dry. While my hands are black from handling everything, it doesn’t appear to be grease, perhaps graphite or some other dry lubricant. My next step is to lube everything per Tom Gaylord’s recommendations in his book on the R1 and see what happens.

    Any comments or pointers on what else to check would be greatly appreciated.



  52. Aaron,

    Thanks for the over view on your rifles. It sounds like you skills are developing quickly.

    I will standby my recommendation of the TX200 but need to state that I don’t personally own one. I have an HW97K that is a similar underlever rifle that was popular before the TX.

    From my substantial experience with spring guns an under lever is the least hold sensitive that gives good power. Sub 600 fps break barrels are second, but have limited field abilities, and some still prefer to be held delicately. (Think of under levers like a hunting buddy and break barrels like a never ending first date)

    Anyway, BB and others have stated that the TX feels close to tuned out of the box. My HW97K required a substantial investment to get the power up and vibration out. I can’t think of a more enduring way to invest an income tax refund than a TX200. I would of purchased one but deemed it too close to my 97.

    Any concerns or questions?




  53. Fred,

    JM sells a sample kit of his lubes that I believe are considered among the best. You get heavy tar, clear, and moly for a little over $20.00.



  54. David,

    As I heard a martial arts master say, “What do I need friends for? I can get into trouble all by myself.”

    Volvo, in terms of technique, wouldn’t the PCP precede the springer in terms of difficulty which is the normal learning progression? If I hadn’t learned about the artillery hold from B.B., I would have quit in disgust and never thought about investing in a PCP.

    CJK, the only barrier to a red dot sight for the IZH 61 I’ve found is the rather prominent front sight which is really not compatible with a red dot unlike a real scope. B.B. told me that it might be easy to remove the front sight, but with the way the gun shoots, I dare not risk it. Given how small and portable the Bug Buster is I don’t see that the red dot offers any advantages.

    Regarding Rome, they lasted much longer than we have so far, but I wouldn’t go back to their writing system either.

    Matt61


  55. Matt,

    I guess I should of explained more, but I don’t think you can truly appreciate a PCP until you have experienced and mastered springers.

    With a PCP like the FX Whisper their is nothing to master. No noise, no recoil, no right hold. Nada. Learn on that and I would guess you’d never want a spring gun.

    A low power quality break barrel or an underlever are ideal starting points.

    Kevin,

    Thanks for the complement on the Cyclone, but you scared the crap out of me. I thought it was going to be LNIB for $750…

    I just Pd $1195 so I don’t feel bad since the guy wants $1050 used.


  56. Matt,

    RE: 7/2 ratio for standing to bench

    Thanks! That seems reasonable. Obviously a higher ratio implies that more practice is needed standing and that the rifle isn’t the limiting factor.

    David,

    Once last thought from me. The choice of gun depends somewhat on what you want to use it for. If you’re just shooting targets at 10 meters, then maybe a somewhat lower powered spring gun might be better. I’ve just been playing with a TF 97 and it is fairly low power. I wouldn’t recommend that gun to you, but it did amaze me how a little less power is so much easier to control. If you want to push 0.22s at 900 fps for hunting, then that springer will have a lot more kick. Hence it will be more hold sensitive.

    Herb


  57. Volvo,

    If it was LNIB for $750.00 I wouldn’t have told you about it, I would have bought it. :-)

    Great looking gun though.

    Now that you’ve had a little time with the cyclone, Is the on board pressure gauge a significant bonus?

    kevin


  58. Kevin,

    Best analogy is the pressure gauge, adjustable power and so on are similar to power windows, heated seats and the like on cars. Not necessities, but nice to have.

    When filling I only watch the gauge on the pump. When shooting, the advantage is that I don’t need to count shots or pellets first. Biggest bonus is at a later time being able to see the charge level without hooking it to a pump.

    I’m very pleased with it so far. Biggest contrast between it and the Webley is that the Webley appears built to be used as a club when the air runs out where as the Cyclone is a much more refined machine.

    Also fit and finish is extraordinary. You could not fit a tenth of the width of a dollar bill between the wood and the air tube, same around the gauge.


  59. i do love my friends model 75 i love the triger the most. its at half a pound with no creep and i like the feel of its so fluid like glass breaking .

    the tx tho is very nice i have held one tho i never shot it and it was a nice fit.

    i also love the model 350 i think it would be nice and it is acurite but i only have about 20 yards maby out to 50 if i put it in the woods.

    i think a co2 tallon ss would be very good so i would have a lower power and they have good trigers and lots of parts. I think i would get the condor and turn it in to a tallon ss like bb was saying so if i ever wanted the power i could have it. And because i can put a rifle scope on it i would have a better range of scopes i think.

    but a model 34 i think is best for now because it would be a little more of a chalnge than a tx so i might be more prepared if i got a other spinger than if i got the tx first. my heart is set on the 34.

    i do love the model 46 tho and sence it was made to compete with the tx i beleve. and i think the 46 is one of the most beautful airguns i have ever seen so i might get that after the 34. i gess this is just a short short list of guns i like

    David,

    P.S. the one with the most toys in the end wins.well u might come to your end soon if you thnk there toys but…..


  60. Volvo,

    Thanks.

    Too many years with firearms. I can’t help but notice good fittings and finish. IF that checkering is hand cut it’s remarkable. Even if it isn’t I like it. Blueing on the used gun looks deep and true. Not true on all guns, but most you can judge a book by its’ cover.

    kevin



  61. Kevin,
    Thanks for the extra help and effort! I really appreciate that!
    I’ve tried some google searches on “Merit disk” and haven’t come up with any retailers yet. I’ll keep searching. I did find one on ebay that had a “buy now” for $72 including shipping for just the disk. Wow, pricey. The Beeman sight cost $70 including shipping. Maybe that’s why PA doesn’t offer the disks. BTW, the picture on ebay is the exact same photograph in the airgun forum you pointed me to??!
    -Chuck



  62. David,

    My thinking, in recommending the 34, was this. You are young, so why not learn the right gun-handling techniques while your eyes are good? I even recommend a .177 over a .22, since the volume of shooting is important to you and .177 is less expensive to shoot.

    In a few years, when you are a crack shot with the 34, any PCP or even the TX 200 is going to feel SO wonderful. I want you to know that experience, but first I want you to learn the basics.

    Your friend’s model 75 practically shoots itself. It’s a wonderful rifle, but that 34 will really push you to use perfect gun-holding technique to get similar results. And the 34 trigger is more of a challenge.

    That was my reasoning, plus I wanted to recommend a gun you could own with pride for the rest of your life.

    B.B.


  63. Chuck,

    Midway has/had them, brownells too and try champions. Type disc not disk. If it makes you feel any better the gehmann iris (variable disc with minor magnification) that I put in my rear aperture sight cost $320.00.

    kevin


  64. SED,

    You are right about the Crosman 357 being a lot of what you get with the 586. But anyone who has ever experienced the 586 will forget that and understand why the 586 is more desirable at any price.

    As for your Pro 77, that is a new one on me. I haven’t got a clue about why it’s doing that!

    B.B.


  65. Fred,

    Two comments on your 350 lube job. First, when I wrote that, the R1 was fitted with a looser powerplant than it has today, so I would use a LOT less tar today.

    Second, RWS Diana rifles are especially tighter in the powerplant tolerances.

    As someone suggested, read how I lubed the R1 for the 13-part series and even how I lubed the HW55T that I tuned more recently. That 350 Mag doesn’t need all the tar I put in the R1.

    B.B.


  66. Matt,
    Thanks for the answer on the red dot. Be aware there is a cjk on this blog as well as me, cjr. Your point between the red dot and the scope makes sense. I was fixated on the difference between the red dot and the peeps. I might as well replace all the peeps with scopes rather than red dots. I won’t yet because I want my three little sharp-shooters to master non-scoped shooting first. However, I think I’m losing that battle. They’ve tasted the scope and that has curbed their appetite for peeps. I have to be careful so they don’t lose interest. They’ve already turned from paper to tin cans and last Christmas they were eying my Christmas tree bulbs with a glint in their eyes.
    -Chuck



  67. Kevin,
    “gehmann iris (variable disc with minor magnification) $320″

    So, you’ve been holding back on me, eh?!

    $320 – you are a real serious shooter!

    Thanks for the retail sites. I’ll check them out. I’ve done business with midway before. Never thought of checking out firearm dealers…duh!

    -Chuck


  68. Volvo,

    I’d agree that the appreciation factor is higher by starting with springers although I do wonder if that is the quickest way to learn both. That would be an interesting experiment to try with two groups of novices. Maybe Wayne can try this once business gets going at the Ashland Range. The springer first method strikes me a little as the Benjamin Button movie I’ve heard about where the person goes from old to young. It has its points but the sequencing is weird. I have no complaints about my springers, though.

    Herb, yes, I doubt the person exists who can shoot a rifle to its limits while standing. Maybe the stock-type makes a difference.

    Chuck, if you want to keep your kids interested in open sights a bit longer, you can have them try snap shooting by just laying the front sight on the target. The scopes will look less attractive when they take much longer to acquire the shot. However, snap shooting is a more advanced skill, and I don’t suppose that it teaches very good sight alignment. Maybe for later when your kids get bored.

    B.B. I see that PA has taken the Marauder of the site. My fantasies cannot take me around to the left side of the gun so can you tell me if the clip is internal or whether it sticks out the side like the S410. I don’t really care for the protrusion.

    Matt61



  69. Hey guys – I couldn’t agree more about learning to shoot with a springer. I’ve been a .22 rimfire guy my whole life and after shooting my springer for a year it has made me so much more accurate with my .22′s. And like BB said, I can’t wait to feel the ease of shooting a PCP or a springer like the tx after shooting the harsh recoiling RS2 for so long.

    Volvo – “(Think of under levers like a hunting buddy and break barrels like a never ending first date)” That’s an awesome analogy and so true. To take it a little further I honestly feel like I’m still trying to get into my break barrels “pants”. LOL

    Thanks again guys,

    -Aaron



  70. David,

    I’m a 46 nut – got 4.5 of them (one’s a 300r which is kind of a 46 repeater). They are inefficient in that they are 12 fpe guns instead of the 34′s 14 fpe. They are deadly accurate – rivaling the TX-200 (although the TX200 is smoother in every way, more powerful, silent, tuned from the factory, etc). The average shooter can easily outshoot either of these guns with a Talon and a Talon is more powerful (Including a 24″ barrel on C02, which gets 600+ shots).

    I’m bringing up these differences as RWS 46 is being dropped by UMAREX for US sales. The 46 Stutzen is the only 46 currently in production and Pyramid Air has them available now for $399 -10%. It is probably the most beautiful of the 46′s. I also like it for when I have special event shoots with friends and family as it’s breech mechanism eliminates any possibility of chopping one’s fingers off by not using/knowing proper safety precautions. So, if you can swing the extra cost, might be a good opportunity to get a 46.

    JC


  71. Kevin – I haven’t bought any lubes yet. I have read BB’s 13 part series on tuning but at my age, don’t always retain everything I read. Rather than search back through the blog, I was going to review his book on the type of lubes used and where.

    Volvo – great tip! I was going to buy a Macari spring and seal kit if I found any problems but didn’t realize he sold a sampler lube kit. I’ll send off an e-mail to him tonight or tomorrow.

    BB – thanks for the advice. I remember the photos from your blog showing the minimal amount of tar you put on the spring and the other lube on the piston just behind the seal but I’ll review it again. I don’t plan on doing anything with the trigger group as I don’t have the experience and really don’t want to ruin anything and then have to wait for parts.

    So the final question still is, why a .14 cal pellet?


  72. BB,
    I just shot the pro77 indoors again and the gas leak at the end of the can is still there. This time I only got it with 7 shots out of the 80-90 I took. The amount of co2 in the can I am referring to is when the slide can no longer recock the hammer. WOW this is accurate, my biggest gripe about the early production pro77 was accuracy. This newer model is as good as my airmagc11 (the airsoft one).
    Shadow express dude


  73. Fred,

    Good for you. Reading B.B.'s 13 part series. The tuning series he did on his (formerly Waynes) Hw 55 tyrolean is the most recent with great pictures. B.B. has said several times that "buttering" a spring like the one shown in his R1 book is no longer something he recommends.

    .14 caliber is not something I voted in favor of. We already have a shortage of .20 caliber types. We frequently have to search for the popular .177 & .22 caliber pellets, why would we create an even bigger lag in deliver by forcing manufacturers to tool up and make production runs on another caliber of pellet. In addition, the smaller caliber may be a benefit in less powerful guns (pistols for example) but .177 seems to adequately fill that niche. Would someone please chime in on a reason for .14 caliber that I've overlooked (other than gamo being able to boast a 2,000 fps gun that can take down an elk).

    kevin


  74. For what it’s worth;I just watched the Gamo commercial for the as yet unreleased C02 extreme pump-action repeating 10 shot .22 cal air rifle.they are claiming that at 17 joules,its”the most powerful repeating airgun on the market”the ad writer has a long nose,and getting longer!!!FrankB



  75. Volvo,
    Aaron took the ball and ran with it — perhaps the student has surpassed the teacher (of purple prose)?:)

    Aaron,
    Your experiences with air rifles and rimfires mirrors my own. The more you shoot, the better you get, and you can’t beat air rifles for cost and convenience. By the way, does your wife know about the break barrel:)?


  76. Bg – farmer,

    I grinned when I read Aaron’s comment, not because of the text, but the knowledge that you would not be able to resist. Like a Beagle on a bunny track you did not disappoint.

    I’ll admit he shows promise and youth does have its benefits, but in most cases experience will be the deciding factor. I’m willing to bet my holster has a few more notches.

    Gotta go, but I need my little blue pill first – I can’t get to sleep without a Tylenol PM.

    (Disclaimer – this is an ongoing joke, originated by a somewhat steamy description Mr. Farmer inadvertently made some time ago, not an attempt to create a new my space, however you can reach me at 867-5309.)


  77. sorry i didnt fully under stand what you said the first time. lol reading what i wrote i think i need to try and type what i mean cuz its a little off what i was thinking.

    i plan on geting the 34 soon should i get a scope for it or use the iron sites

    and i plan on geting jsb exats, premer lights and heavys,and rws super domes

    do u think that will be a good spread of pellets to test

    thank u for all of your help bb and the rest of you sorry if u didnt under stand what i was saying David

    P.S bb you should watch dave herbts videos on youtube his name is nightflyer he is as smart as you but on rc helis and plans.


  78. David,

    I started the rifle range out with Avenger 1100, RM200, RM600, RM2000 and RS1 and RS2. Randy and I shot the heck out them at night indoors…

    B.B. is right of course, put your time in there..
    And the 34 is like the TX200 a little, in that it’s worth collecting too.. so take care of it!! and save the box..

    It’s interesting also, that you’ve tasted a match grade trigger… HHHMMMM… that makes me think you won’t be wearing out the 34 too much…

    LNIB on the yellow about April 4th is my guess… but you will be better off to put it in the closet and sell more video games…. (Like New in Box 20 years from now will really be worth something).. then add the TX200 to your collection, then a FX or Air Arms PCP something when the time comes… of course that means you have to buy a house and add on rooms, and…. did I mention kids and a mortgage.. and taxes!!!

    Welcome to adulthood!!

    They kicked me out, but I find it more fun anyway!!

    Wacky Wayne


  79. HeyGuys,

    Here is a little info I put together with my 586. I have the 586 with 8, 6 and 4 inch barrels. Trigger pull averages 10# 6 oz double action, and 6 # single action with a lyman digital gauge. Not a target pistol, but very acceptable single action, very little creep and a clean break.

    The following velocities are at 67 degrees F in fps
    Rws hobby / Rws Supermag
    8″ 373 / 356

    6″ 309 / 293

    4″ 281 / 264

    Hobby are 7gr, supermag are 9.3gr

    Each barrel started with a fresh co-2 cylinder, and the velocity is the average from a 10 shot string. I only allowed enough time between shots for the chrony to register and to carefully aim for the next shot. Also CPL 7.9gr averaged 341fps, and JSB 10.2gr, av 328fps from the 8″.

    I am sure the temperature and relatively rapid rate of fire reduced the velocity numbers somewhat. But 67 F is what I have in the basement range, and the rate is realistic. I don’t usually have the patience to wait 30 seconds or more between shots. So this is a practical test for me.

    Accuracy with the 8″ is astounding, BB’s target is representative of what I get at 10m rested. I usually only shoot the 8″, the balance is wonderful, and accuracy is excellent. I find the best accuracy with the RWS Supermag, second is JSB diablo match(pistol). Didn’t have any JSB to test velocity– shot em all ! ;)

    Umarex hit a homerun with this one. It is one of the finest in my collection.

    Joe


  80. Joe,

    Speaking of collecting..
    From the sounds of the sales, Umarex will be dropping the 586, so maybe putting a couple new in box ones on the shelf is not a bad idea..

    Other pistols are designed for target or fun or copying a firearm too, but I would bet none copy the feel of the real firearm in weight, balance and grip as well as the S&W 586… that will make it a collector for sure! The accuracy is a big bonus!!

    And as far as pistol design goes, I'm really liking the revolver.. and rocking back that thumb lever, as I tell that target to get ready to die.. too much like the old westerns, it's locked in my inner child's brain, don't ya know…

    The Pool room here is 75 or so all the time, so it's just perfect for CO2, so I wonder if that might make it less of an issue on rapid fire.. It seems like I can shoot the 10 round mag in 15 or 20 seconds with out loss of POI, but I'm not shooting off a rest, so it's not a real test…

    Am I hearing that I should be waiting 5 seconds between shots, if I want a steady CO2 pressure?

    This CO2 stuff is fun, but has it's limitations..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  81. Kevin, you said:

    “Wayne,

    I am really sorry I ever corrected one word of your spelling. What can I do to make it up to you?

    kevin”

    Silly you, not to be sorry grasshopper…
    I thank you and bless you for your help in my education on all levels!!!…
    Spelling.. and especially Elk hunting!! I love learning… bring it on!

    Blessings on you Bro!!

    Wayne


  82. Help me all,

    I’ve got the shakes and having withdrawals… I haven’t looked at the yellow in THREE WHOLE DAYS!!!

    talk me through it please…

    well it was just a quick glance.. I didn’t really read anything.. really.. no really I didn’t..

    extra Wacky Wayne..


  83. …….Argument For the .14 Caliber…

    I like to shoot out the numbers on the Gamo paper targets with my spring rifles at 10 meters, as it improves my technique and saves on buying targets.

    I knocked out 4 numbers in a row, including 2 perfect obliterations, which was a sign for me to stop. That way I would leave it with perfect form and peace of mind.

    But I wanted to shoot more, so I grabbed the Drozd Blackbird BB 88 gram CO2 air rifle, capable of shooting semi or full auto burst (“burst” not “fire”), and took aim on the number “3.” I shot 20 individually aimed semi-auto shots and did not hit it once! My reliable Blackbird did place about 15 shots within 1″ of the “3″ and a few of the BBs hit within a 1/4″ or less…but not a one hit the number!

    I stopped, and I may try again…it is an interesting physics/probability problem, given the inaccuracy of the Drozd, how many perfecty aimed [the Drozd, equipped as I have it with a Leapers 6-24X56 scope, is able to be held EXTremeley motionless on target] shots are required until I hit the number…I suspect about 30.

    So, I realized that one of the attractions to the little BB is the tiny hole that it makes…and the tiny hole it makes in the wallet….ha ha ha.

    It is also very effective in the BB machine gun, although as B.B. Tom agreed the other day, perhaps not effective at all for plinking indoors.

    Nevertheless, if a .14 or even .12 caliber BB can be made to fit the Drozd (or vice-versa), then I suspect that I would get twice the number of shots…inaccurate, true, but if there are many more shots than eventually the target is hit.

    Anyway, it would certainly make the gun more challenging for squirrel hunting…I think it would reduce the range to under 7 yards.

    - Dr. G.


  84. i got like 5 years till i have to move out. but u do got a pount about puting it in a closet and i do love thos trigers but i think ill do what bb recmended it makes sense to me. David



  85. .14 caliber pellet,

    This is just a hypothetical question that Jim Maccari raised a decade ago. I think maybe someone did something about it, but I have no information.

    The goal was better ballistics and flatter trajectory, with a secondary of a more competitive field target caliber.

    ‘B.B.


  86. SED,

    So the gas is exhausting when it gets low? That is common to many CO2 guns.

    If it did that when the cartridge is new there would be a problem, but at the end of the cartridge I’d say it’s normal.

    B.B.


  87. David,

    You asked two questions. Should you get a scope and what pellets for your new 34.

    My vote is that you begin to get familier with your new gun by using the open sights that come with the gun. The RWS sights are first rate. There’s always time to put a scope on it in the future once you learn how to soot that gun with open sights.

    As far as pellets…what caliber gun are you going to purchase?

    kevin




  88. cjk,

    The Crosman 357 has an 11mm dovetail so any laser that will fit that should work. I don’t think mounting a laser on the trigger guard is an option because the barrel swings down to load another cylinder.

    .22 multi-shot


  89. Dr. G,

    I also shoot at the numbers on the Gamo targets. When limited to a conservative distance that is one of the ways to keep things a little challenging. Last year when I sold many of my Springer’s that was a large part of the final test.

    Do you fill the trap with duct seal? I have found this very effective at reducing noise.



  90. David,

    Good for you in deciding on the 34 in .177. The pellets that I’ve read (I’ve never owned a 34) that do well in many 34′s are RWS Superdomes, Beeman FTS, Meisterkugeln’s and jsb exacts. I think some of these were on your list to buy.

    Please keep us informed about your progress with this new fine gun. I’ll also add that I admire you for choosing a lifetime sport/hobby like shooting over video games. My hats off to you.

    kevin




  91. Mathew,

    6" S&W 586 vs. HW45 Weihrauch (also known as Beeman P1)

    I've never owned either gun so my opinion is just based on what I've read about the guns and the comments other owners have made about their guns.

    You can't go wrong with either gun. Both seem to be well liked. My preference would be the Beeman P1 (HW 45) because I like a 1911 over a 586 firearm, I like the looks of a 1911 more than the 586, I like the greater power in the P1, I like the fact that I could add a stock to the P1 and the P1/HW 45 accuracy seems a little better than the 586.

    kevin


  92. Mathew,

    I just got in a barely used .177 "Mark II Target".. I had only shot the .22 cal Mark I a little, so I shot the .177 Mark II a lot last night just to get a feel for the gun..

    Wow, this one seems better built than the 2300s… and just as accurate for me, the grip is a perfect fit for me.. It feels very solid in my hand, I really like it a lot!!.. for a single shot, it's just as nice to shoot as any I've shot so far… but my personal favorite is still the S&W 586, just because I like the full size and actual weight of that revolver best.. just the cowboy in me..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  93. I couldn’d find a Mark I, so I bought a Daisy 622X. It’s a beretta styled pistol that’s actually a 6 shot revolver at heart. Single or double action, take your pick and is a fun Co2 gun for the money. Unfortunately, they are hard to come by too.


  94. Thanks for the feedback its appreciated. In Canada (I’m Canadian!) it can be difficult to get good feedback from people because the community isn’t as large and our culture is different towards arms. Thank you Wayne and Kevin you have given me more to consider before I make my purchase!!

    PS – Up north we don’t have the Beeman P1 only the Weihrauch HW45, even though they are the same pistol. Anyone know why? Not a trick question just curious!



  95. Kevin,

    Apparently when making the HW45/P1 Beeman and Weihrauch decided to sell the pistol as a Beeman in the US because Beeman is an American company. In Canada we get the European version, same gun different name. Thats what the dealer I bought it from told me.



  96. I have the SW 686 and love it. I use Beeman Silver Arrow pellets. I can usually get a 1/2″ pattern at 10 yards with this gun with any of the barrels (I have all 3). I do not find a great deal of difference in accuracy between the 3 barrels. Perhaps with different pellets I would find a difference. For a while I used some Beeman gold colored pellets, but Wal-Mart no longer stocks them. So I had to experiment. I think the gold colored pellets gave a bit more accuracy, but were pretty light and since I was hunting chipmunks (that’s another story) the Beeman Silver Arrows won out.
    I am very pleased with this gun as it can give me lots of opportunity to do many different things with it. Being a repeater, I can practice double taps, etc. I did try the Python and it felt cheaper (duh, it is). I didn’t like the way the Python loaded, just kind of weird. Unfortunately, I am not able to measure the speed (no chrony yet), but it seems to hit pretty hard with these pellets-I’ve use quite a number of different pellets with it.
    I have mounted laser at one time on it (there is an optional plastic rail you can mount on top of it-it works really well), but that didn’t really satisfy. The cheapo red-dot I put on was better.
    My first pellet pistol was the Marksman 2004, which is far more accurate. I use the same pellets and have used the laser and red-dot as well. What was really surprising is getting a rifle scope and mounting that. I put a dot on a paper and put it out to 30 yards. With the scope, I put the round right through the hole (propped up and sitting down!). I just couldn’t get used to the rifle scope on it, so I returned the scope. Still waiting for a good handgun scope. Leapers was supposed to put one out, but not yet.
    So my next jump will be to PCP with the new Benjamin Renegade. Can’t wait.

    Michael in Georgia


  97. Michael in Georgia,

    Great write-up on the SW 686 and Marksman 2004 you own. You posted your excellent comment in a relevant place (under an article B.B. did on the S&W 586 and 686) but the article is over 2 weeks old. Not many airgunners check back on the comments under articles this old. I would encourage you to join other airgunners, just like you, on the current blog that are exchanging airgun stories like yours, asking and answering each others airgun questions.

    The other reason you may want to become part of the current/active blog is because B.B. has promised and article on scopes for air pistols in the near future. B.B. writes a new article every day (Monday-Friday) and the comments under the most current article is where you will find the most airgunners communicating. Here's a link to take you there (you'll need to copy and paste this link),

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

    Hope to see you there!

    kevin


  98. Kevin,
    Yea, I know all about that. I’m just a little behind in my reading. I have been reading this blog for a long time now, but have gotten behind in a lot of stuff.

    Michael in Georgia




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