Bulk-fill from 12-gram cartridges! Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier

If you’re a veteran CO2 user, the title of this report will confuse you, because bulk-filling and CO2 cartridges are two different ways of charging a CO2 gun. But, today, I’ll show you a device that lets you use a CO2 cartridge to bulk-fill a gun. And there’s a lot more to this story than just that!

Over two years ago, my good friend Mac traded or sold me a .22-caliber Crosman model 114 CO2 rifle — we can’t remember which. The rifle was in nice shape except that it didn’t hold gas, which is the kiss of death for a CO2 gun. No problem for me. I sent it off to Rick Willnecker in Pennsylvania to be resealed.

A couple weeks later, Rick called and asked if I would like to have the metal refinished, too. He said he had a friend who owed him a favor, and I could get the rifle refinished for nothing if I was willing to wait. I was in the middle of reporting on the gun at the time, but the work had stopped the report, so I figured why not? Little did I know that it would be two years before I would see this gun again.


Since the Crosman 114 was refinished, it looks like a new gun again.

If you’re interested in the first two parts of the report, they are linked below.

Crosman 114 — Part 1
Crosman 114 — Part 2

Back to today
Back to the main part of this story. At this year’s Roanoke Airgun Expo, I spotted a small device on Mike Reames’ table. It turned out to be a device that lets you charge a bulk-fill Crosman gun with a 12-gram CO2 cartridge. When I saw it I knew I had to report on it for you; and with the recent return of my now-refinished 114, I had the perfect test vehicle.


This device, made by Mike Reames, will attach to any fill port on a Crosman bulk-fill gun with an internal reservoir. It cannot be left on the gun when firing, though, because it will be hit by the pellet.


The bulk-fill device attaches to the rifle in the same way that the Crosman bulk tank did (read Parts 1 and 2 to see that).

Now that you have seen it you may be interested in where to get one of these. They run just over $30 with shipping, and I’m darned if I have the contact info for Mike. I thought I got it at the show, but a search has turned up nothing. However, I bet one of our readers has Mike’s info and can get it for us.

What is bulk-fill?
You probably know that most CO2 guns today rely on 12-gram or 88-gram cartridges to get their CO2. But it didn’t used to be that way. Back in the 1870s, Giffard of France made many CO2 guns that had a separate tank. When the gas ran out, you exchanged tanks; and they had it set up so you could mail them in.

Crosman made CO2 bulk guns starting is 1932 and continued building them until about 1955. Some of them had tanks that were separate, but others, like the 114 we are looking at today, had the reservoir built-in. In fact, when I initially had the idea for what turned out to be the Benjamin Discovery, I was thinking of a bulk-fill CO2 gun. When Crosman built the first prototype, they built it on the now-discontinued Crosman 2260 frame. Just the reservoir on the prototype was changed to hold the compressed air.

There have also been quite a few target rifles and pistols that operate on bulk CO2. For these, like the early Crosman guns, a separate bulk tank of CO2 is connected to the gun to fill it.

Back to this report. There was also a .177-caliber model 113 rifle that looks exactly like this .22-caliber 114. These were both single-shot, bolt-action guns that didn’t change substantially throughout the years they were manufactured, which was 1950-1955.

The 114 used to get around 70 good shots on one fill of gas when I filled it from a separate bulk tank. If you took the time to cool the gun before the fill, you could get even more shots than that.

A 12-gram CO2 cartridge doesn’t have that much gas inside it, plus some is lost when you make the transfer, so this isn’t the most economical method of filling the gun. It just lets you fill your guns without the need to own a bulk tank. Some people will like that, while others will complain that it’s costing too much to fill their guns. For them, I caution that what I’m showing today is not the best solution. However, if you’re like me and want to shoot your bulk Crosman guns occasionally, this is probably the most convenient way to do it.

Filling the gun
To fill the gun, simply attach the device to the fill port of the gun and insert a 12-gram cartridge. Screw down the top on the device, which pushes it onto the piercing pin and starts the gas flowing. With this device, there’s no way to stop the flow of gas; so when everything gets quiet, you know the gun has taken all the gas it will accept. If you dry-fire the gun one or two times at this point, you might get a denser fillbecause dry-firing lowers the temperature of the gun, causing more gas to flow.

Once the gun is filled, you just keep cocking and loading pellets and shooting until the power seems to go away. This is done by listening to the rifle’s report and is fairly easy to learn.

As far as shooting the 114, I was just about to get to that back in 2009 when the gun failed, and that’s where we are now. There’s a lot that needs to be tested on this rifle, but I’m going to end this tale right here. I’ll save the velocity testing, number of shots per fill, which in this case is also the same as the number of shots per cartridge, and accuracy for another day.

94 thoughts on “Bulk-fill from 12-gram cartridges! Part 1

  1. I want one of these!!! I have a FWB P-62 precision match 10 meter pistol and a C-62 match rifle. Both shoot better over time than any SSP lever action rifle. I wouldn’t hesitate to compete one step below the usual perpetual winners using my CO2 guns against their compressed tanks.

    But. I cannot fly with a canister of co2 pre filled at home. It’s liquid gas at 800psi and can’t be flown when loaded. Once I land in Competition City In the Rockies, they don’t have any bulk CO2 because nobody uses it any longer. SO… I pull that little cute adapter and — say — 50 Sparklets ™ drink cartridges bought during a run down to Wally World or any air gun store, and
    I’m shooting recoilless guns. and I have ::presto:: enough CO2 to handle sighters + 60 competition shots, and 10 shots for the finals. All this without ticking off the ISSF trolls! Might enough to get those proper recoil free guns out of the closet, instantly opening up several “new” top-range guns for youngsters who could not otherwise buy modern guns. Ask host Pilkington if he’s got a market!

    –pete


  2. Pete says I want one of these!!! I have a FWB P-62 precision match 10 meter pistol and a C-62 match rifle. Both shoot better over time than any SSP lever action rifle. I wouldn’t hesitate to compete one step below the usual perpetual winners using my CO2 guns against their compressed tanks.

    But. I cannot fly with a canister of co2 pre filled at home. It’s liquid gas at 800psi and can’t be flown when loaded. Once I land in Competition City In the Rockies, they don’t have any bulk CO2 because nobody uses it any longer. SO… I pull that little cute adapter and — say — 50 Sparklets ™ drink cartridges bought during a run down to Wally World or any air gun store, and
    I’m shooting recoilless guns. and I have ::presto:: enough CO2 to handle sighters + 60 competition shots, and 10 shots for the finals. All this without ticking off the ISSF trolls! Might enough to get those proper recoil free guns out of the closet, instantly opening up several “new” top-range guns for youngsters who could not otherwise buy modern guns. Ask host Pilkington if he’s got a market!

    –pete


    • PeteZ,

      Pyramyd Air would stock these if Mike would sell them to us and if there is a demand. I think there is. It’s small, but probably steady, if we can highlight the product so people know we have it.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Since I know so little about CO2 filling this is probably a stupid question:

        Could Mike Reames install a threaded fill that is bent at 45 degrees so that his device could be left on the gun during firing but be out of the way of a pellet? In other words, is it necessary that a CO2 filling device be “straight through” without any bends?

        kevin


        • Kevin,

          Great minds think alike! When I asked Mike that question at Roanoke he said he hadn’t thought of leaving it on the gun, but it probably could be done. I think we should get some kind of fee for the idea — don’t you? ;)

          B.B.


          • B.B.,

            As usual you’re 2-5 steps ahead of me. Yes, I think you should get a cut of every new design model he sells :-)

            I still think the modified design of a bb we discussed awhile back has potential. It’s tough to find time to make millions of dollars on a revolutionary design when you’re busy making a living.

            Gotta go back to work.

            kevin


          • Why not go all out, with a series of couplers that fit (clear) various stock forearms, so the canister sits parallel under the forearm, rather than dangling downward…

            And then ask for one that can take the big CO2 cartridges too!


            • Wulfraed,
              Crosman had an adapter for using an air source 88 gram tank on its 1077 , an upgrade kit, but it is listed as discontinued by Pyramid. It sounds like what you were describing .


              • Probably, but I was suggesting a generic third-party after-market.

                Of course, if making such wishes (not that I have a candidate on which to mount one) lets make a binary or trinary unit too… The binary would put a PAIR of 88gram cartridges on each side of the foregrip, and the trinary would have each side and below… Just think — THREE 88gram cartridges all on-line at the same time…


                • Addendum: Or rather than a third cartridge below, put in a battery holder to power some low-temperature heating coils that wrap the other two cartridges… Since pressure depends on temperature, if one can warm the cartridges from room to say 90-100 deg F…


            • Wulfraed,
              I will try again, first post disappeared . What you described sounds like the air source adapter kit Crosman made for its 1077 rifle. I always wondered if it could be adapted for use on other guns. It has apparently been discontinued according to Pyramid.


              • shaky,

                The spam filter has it in for you today! I’m sitting on the filter and checking it every few minutes during the day, evening and night. Yes, no unfair spamming while I’m around :-)

                I approved your first comment.

                Edith


                • Edith,
                  Thank you I didn’t know what happened so I reposted then it showed up. Always seems I’ve had an Edith around to help. My grandmother, sister, and mother in law all were or are Ediths.


  3. BB,

    Can you use two or more cartridges in succession to get a larger fill amount?

    Also I have been wondering what a really top notch CO2 gun goes for these days? I realize they have long ago been replaced by SSP’s and then by PCP’s. I also know at one time they were in the top of the competition race being percieved as better than “recoiless” actions.

    Also, how do they compare to a SSP or a PCP full competition gun as regards accuracy and price?

    Thanks for your help.


    • pcp4me,

      No, you can’t do that. CO2 fills by uneven pressure. Once the pressure in the gun equals the pressure in a cartridge, not even attaching a 5,000 cubic-foot tank would add even one drop of liquid CO2. The only way to get more into the gun is the cool the gun before the fill.

      B.B.


      • BB,

        This doesn’t seem quite right. Assuming the rifle has a larger reservoir size than the cartridge, liquid CO2, which is denser than the gas, should flow from the cartridge to the rifle. Since the pressure would be about the same, you might have to dry fire the rifle a few times to drop the temperature, and hence the pressure, to get the liquid CO2 flowing.

        So a second cartridge wouldn’t increase the pressure of the charge (like hooking up a fresh HPA tank), but it does seem that it could increase the volume of liquid CO2 transferred.

        Herb


        • Herb,

          When the liquid CO2 in the gun’s reservoir evaporates to gas it attains a pressure that stops any further transfer of gas or liquid. Once the pressure equalizes, nothing more will enter the gun.

          Temperature has always been the key to getting a denser fill. But even then, it’s very difficult to get much beyond a certain percent into a gun’s reservoir.

          Crosman has a HUGE tank of CO2 at their plant to fill the cartridges on the line, but controlling the temperature is ket to filling them.

          B.B.


  4. BB,

    One other question about CO2 10 Meter match pistols. I have read many blogs on the subject. Some say CO2 guns are just as good as PCP. One even cited a shooter who shot a 593 years ago and claims that record had never been broken.

    But I see on other blogs claims that international shooters in competition have shot possibles of 600/600 with the new fangled PCP guns. Which is correct?


    • Pcp4me,

      Sorry if I am butting in, but just my 2 cents on the question addressed to BB.

      I work with junior shooter and dated CO2 can be a great way to save some money and still provide them with a gun that will hold the ten ring and give them a great trigger. It makes me cringe when an 8 or 9 year old kid bounces the muzzle of a $3000 FWB 700 junior of the concrete.

      To my knowledge no one has shot a 600 qualifying score in formal air pistol competition nor a perfect 109 in a final.

      caveman



    • The current world record for air pistol is 594, set on April 12, 2009 by Jin Jong-Oh of Korea. He used a Steyr LP-10 pistol. Nobody has yet shot a perfect 109 in finals. Jin won silver in AP at the 2008 Beijing Olympics, and also gold in 50m pistol.

      I think I was too tired when I posted late last night about wanting one of these new CO2 adapters. I didn’t mean *i* could shoot in a high level competition, but that the CO2 pistols of 20 years ago are every bit as precise, accurate, and recoil free as the SSP pistols of that era and most of the PCP pistols sold today. The principal differences are in muzzle brake, recoil absorbers, and the fact that there’s a big weight difference. If one could make CO2 filling feasible on the road (by filling the pistol from a cartridge), then you could get a lot of juniors and second tier shooters breaking out the old pistols.

      Might be best to use an 88 gram cartridge instead of a 12 gm, because you could then fill the tank of something like the FWB C-10 completely.



    • Oliver,

      It’s expensive in the U.S., too. But as you will see in the other comments, there are reasons for owning one.

      B.B.


  5. Got my Hatsan AT44 with the pump yesterday. Man PCP’s are FUN :D why didn’t anyone tell me earlier?!?

    It’s nice to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and then you can just shoot again! And it’s accurate too!

    But filling to 3000 psi with the hand pump is HARD but it’s OK I can do it (it’s not like I go to the gym or anything so it’ll be good for me) and it doesn’t take too long.
    The gun was filled under 150 bar when I got it pumping to 200 was on the hard side but after 40 shots refilling it wasn’t too hard, I find the pump pretty efficient.
    I had a 4-16X Centerpoint scope waiting for this rifle, it’s nice to be shooting and seeing the pellet hitting where you were aiming in the scope, you can’t do that with a spring piston gun, the recoil blurs your view but with the PCP you can see the pellet and it goes right on where your aiming! WHY did I wait so long to buy this rifle? I saw the light! The light of the dark side :twisted:

    Oh and it’s quiet too! I haven’t chronied it yet but I can hear the ping in the reservoir and the wack of the pellet hitting the target, almost no report from the muzzle.

    J-F


    • J-F,

      Yep, now you understand. But you are only one type of reaction I hear. The other type goes something like this, “OMG! This thing is a beast to pump! Why did I ever listen to the PCP people? Yes it’s accurate and yes, it doesn’t take any special technique to shoot, but all the extra stuff you have to do to get it working is just too much for me. I’m selling this gun at a loss and sticking to good old springers from now on.”

      B.B.


      • It is a beast to pump LOL, just pumping to fill the hose takes some time but I prefer to pump for 5 minutes 3 times and then shoot 40-60 shots than pumping 8 times between each and every shot.
        But I’m now looking at a PCP pistol, the Crosman 1701P still appeals to me and if only I could get these dang Marauders here…
        I may buy the wooden stock version in .177, stupid airguns, once your hooked there’s just no stoping, how can some people get just ONE???

        J-F


      • My objection to pumping a pcp has more to do with the fact that it makes the gun seem like a bicycle tire. The image has got me hobbled.

        Matt61


  6. BB,

    TWO YEARS??? That’s one h–l of a bluing job!!! Glad you got your 114 back though and it looks great! I’m still trying to wrap my brain around bulk filling AND 12oz canister. I can see one immediate advantage, for me at least, is not having to pierce a new cartridge with every fill. There’s something about that process that seems to be a little self destructive to the gun. Would this work on a 2240?

    PeteZ, Sparkletts drink cartridges??

    ka


    • KA,

      The 2240 doesn’t have a reservoir — just a tube to house the CO2 cartridge. However, with the right sort of end cap that is no doubt available from Brian & Associates, yes, you can bulk-fill one.

      B.B.


      • BB,

        So with the B&A cap and the adapter of today’s topic, I would no longer have to unscrew and screw on the cap I have? I’m all for that! I have a 2240 sitting around that needs resealing (the gas just escaped one day out of the clear blue and I didn’t bother to work on it, just bought another one), is resealing one an art or could I do it myself?

        ka



        • KA

          Have you tried a liberal application of pellgunoil? It might swell the seals up just enough.

          B&A is a good outfit to do business with.


        • BB, Slinging Lead,

          So, this sounds easy, I will take a shower and try some Pelgun oil! Seriously, I did break the whole thing down and put it back together ‘clean’, ( I think) and dry. I’m sure there could have been more oil on the seals. I’ll check it, thanks.

          ka



      • High society flicks? Okay, I’ll grant you those, but the TRUE application of Sparklets and soda siphons in old movies is in Three Stooges, Marx Bros., and Warner Bros. routines!

        -Jan


      • Wulfraed,

        “one T; two Ts is a bottled water company”…Ah! I googled ’2t’s for 1/2 hour this morning with no answer that made sense! Those soda water drinks, aren’t they called spritzers?

        ka


        • I have no experience with “wine spritzers”… But I used to consume straight soda water… Heck, I still use straight tonic water to take my morning pills with…


          • KA and Wulfraed,

            spritze is derived from the German word, “spritzen” which means “to spray”. It is also used in Yiddish, which is a polyglot language spoken mainly by Eastern European Jews from Germany, Polan, Rumania, Lithuania and so on. Many Vaudeville comedians would use the word “spritz” in their routines where a seltzer bottle was involved.

            You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spritzer

            The Three Stooges (originally Vaudeville comedians and Jewish) often used the word “spritze” as well as the seltzer bottle to wet down each other as well as their antagonists.

            Fred PRoNJ


  7. Edith,

    I noticed this morning that my browser home page is the new Beta site and I was using the old site. I thought some shenannigans was up with a worm or something because I left machine online all nite. I ran scan after scan, nothing. No changes to browser. I guess the old address is linked to the new site?

    ka


    • KA,

      Yes the former beta site is now the main site, but the old site is still available for those who need more transition time.

      Edith


      • Edith,

        So strange though, the home page in my browser is the same address (old site address) but new site comes up. Is the old site’s address same or new? Odd. Either way, no big deal. Just weird.

        ka


        • KA,

          The old site’s link can be found at the top of any page on the new site. The old site’s address is now the new site’s address. The old site’s address has been changed to:

          http://wop.pyramydair.com/

          The old site will remain available for a little while longer.

          Edith


        • The text webpage address is like a telephone number lookup. You lookup the number for John Smith and then get his phone number which you call. So If John Smith changes phones numbers it doesn’t matter. It just matters that each time you lookup John Smith that you get his current phone number. That is the beauty of the web lookup scheme.

          You type in “http://pyramydair.com/” and the hookup table said send this to extension 27 yesterday, but today it says send it to extension 28.

          Hope this helps.
          Herb


  8. The 114 now appears well worth the wait. Looks like a stunning refinish.

    Mike Reames is an amazing talent. I got to see some of his ball flask guns in person at Roanoke. I didn’t realize it but he also has an incredible talent for engraving. Here’s the last email address I have for Mike Reames:

    reames@wcoil.com

    I thnk David Enoch has the most recent info for Mike.

    kevin


  9. BB,

    “Once the gun is filled, you just keep cocking and loading pellets and shooting until the power seems to go away. This is done by listening to the rifle’s report and is fairly easy to learn.”

    I wish that I could learn that. My youngest daughter is using a TAU200 that gets 45 to 60 good shots out of a 12-gram cartridge depending cadence and range temperature. When practicing it is no big deal the point of impact will start to drop and after three low shots then you can detect the change in report of the rifle and change cartridges. To be safe in a match I will change cartridges between every leg of a 3X20 leg if the range is cool or she shoots a lot of sighting rounds. It would be nice if the rifle had a cocking lock out device when the pressure starts to drop like on a SAM 10. BTW didn’t I read a while back (maybe a year or so) that you were going to do a report on a SAM 10?

    caveman


    • Caveman,

      Oddly, my 10-meter SAM 10 pistol, which is a PCP, has exactly the kind of lockout you refer to. When the pressure in the reservoir drops too low, you cannot cock the gun without pulling back on a spring-loaded arm. When the pressure is fine, the arm stays out of the way by itself.

      If the makers had done that with CO2 they might still be making them today. I went through the same kind of worry with my Chameleon pistol. It’s a bulk-fill CO2 gun that holds enough gas for about 45 shots. But I shot in 60-shot matches with up to ten sighters! So I had to stop and bulk-fill my gun in the middle of a match. It was very distracting to both my neighbors on line, which was a plus, but still — I couldn’t get a PCP fast enough.

      B.B.


      • Yes. It isn’t so easy to learn to hear that pressure drop-off, and it will likely cost you one bad shot. Better to count shots.

        Most of the high end CO2 pistols would go 80 shots on a fill, according to their specs.


  10. testing:

    I’m really curious what the process is that the spam filter goes through. Or should I change my handle to SpamAgain!

    ka in the spam can


    • Edith told me that the reason I was being bagged by the spam filter is that there is a spammer using my IP.
      I got around it by not logging in.

      twotalon



        • No. The links block shows “log in”. If I was logged in it would show “log out”.
          I have my name and e-mail in the reply block, but stay logged out.
          I did a bunch of experimenting a week or two ago when the spam filter was very determined to bag me. What I have been doing works so far.

          twotalon



            • No. My handle and e-mail stay in the comments section all the time. No need to re-enter them.
              I tried every which way of doing things I could think of. This has worked for me.
              Maybe you are being bagged for some other reason. Try what I am doing and see if it works.
              Edith white listed my e-mail, which should have gotten me around the filter, but that was after I tried all the other stuff.

              twotalon


              • Oh, I was thinking logging on in comments section would log me on in the “log on” section. Trying as you said this time. I remember you having troubles with this just a few weeks ago it seems.

                CA (CanAgain!) :)


          • The spam filter is not consistently canning me. some comments just randomly get canned, some post. Gotta go to work, logging off

            CanAgain :)


          • The spam filter is not consistently canning me. some comments just randomly get canned, some post. Gotta go to work, logging off

            ca (CanAgain) :)


  11. b.b., I’ve tried the search and just can seem to find the answer to my question…exactly.
    How do you test the guns you test?
    Specifically (using yesterday for an example), do you use a rest?
    When I shoot I am seated at a bench, but I use no other support other than my elbows resting on the bench.
    Now, while I wouldn’t be too happy with an 1.5″ group at 30m with my Slavia, but I also don’t often see .5″ groups like you obtained from the R8, which it seems the Slavia should be capable of.
    If the answer is that you use a rest…do I need to purchase one of the fancy rigs I see at the local gunshop…or a good set of sandbags. Cost isn’t the issue, the fancy rig is only about $50…but it sure adds to the pain in the rear factor ;-)


    • CSD,

      I’ll tell you what I’m going to do for you, young man. Edith has been after me to take various pictures of me doing gun things, just to show to you guys. So I will take a picture of how I REST a rifle for a tight group like the one you reference. I do it on a large bag that sits atop an MTM portable shooting bench. I even shoot my Ballard off that bench, so yes, it is sturdy enough.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,
        I know you’re going to show us the large bag that you use, but I’m curious as to what that bag is? Did you buy it, or make it yourself? If someone was on a tight budget and needed to make their own, what would you recommend? This topic alone would be of great interest to newbies, as you talked about recently.
        Thanks,
        Victor


        • Victor,

          I bought that bag at a gun show several years ago. In fact, it was Edith who convinced me to buy it. It cost $45 and was some of the best money I ever spent.

          Wanna make a cheap bag? Go to Goodwill and but a pair of blue jeans. Cut off the legs in appropriate lengths for a bag and sew one end shut. Fill the bag you’ve made with crushed walnut shells you buy at PetSmart as lizard bedding. Sew the other end shut and you’re done.

          B.B.


      • Very timely.

        I’ve been researching rests to replace my shooters ridge riser and sand bags with a rabbit ear rear leather to improve my long range shooting.

        I’ve been reading and asking questions on benchrest forums. Unreal how advanced some of the coaxial rests have become. What I found very interesting was the number of shooters that have sold their $1,000++ front rests with custom twin bags and gone back to large bags filled with shooters sand (heavy sand). Harvey Donaldson shot groups that I envy and he did it off of front and rear sand bags that “were settled completely around the gun”.

        So far I’m leaning toward a bullsbag X7 for my front bag and a doggone good rear bag for my firearm shooting. The bags I’m using for airguns are fine and don’t need to be replaced.

        kevin


    • That would be great!!
      Been a long time since someone called my ‘young man’.
      Now it’s usually…’do you qualify for our seniors discount?’ ;-(


  12. I think this device is a great solution as a back up or for the occasional need to bulk fill an air rifle.

    The whole subject of bulk fill is of interest to me. I have a large CO2 cylinder to carbonate home brewed beer and have been contemplating the feasibility of using it as a power source for air rifles. I would love to see more information on bulk fill rifles or pistols and the necessary equipment to charge them. I also have a healthy respect for compressed gas and would love some guidance on what safety concerns should be addressed.


  13. B.B.

    Regarding your question yesterday about what new air gunners would like to see in the blog, and if you excuse me for considering myself a new air gunner, I would say that reviews on higher end, new guns would be appropriate from time to time. Of course, just like me, a new air gunner would not likely go and spend over $500 in an air rifle for the first time. However, knowledge on what is available and what can be done with such is invaluable. When I first bought the Gamo Whisper, I did it fully aware of its limitations and what i was missing by not paying more. This knowledge saved me the frustration of not obtaining results that would be unattainable with this gun and also made me interested in modifying it as mush as I could within my limitations.

    I know it may be a difficult task to get a $1,500 rifle on loan to review, but I would certainly like to see what they are capable of and what are their features. It would be inspiring and also give an insight on why less costly rifles are less costly.

    Cheers
    T.E.


    • T.E.,

      I do try to test some expensive guns from time to time. And I know people aren’t going to buy them because of the test.

      But your anticipation and expectations of the Gamo you bought is what I am after. I want you to know what you are getting and not be terribly surprised and disappointed.

      B.B.


    • Tunnel Engineer, don’t count out owning the high end guns at some point. I’m grateful every day when I take out my Anschutz even though I’m dry firing at an ink spot a couple feet from the muzzle. I think every serious shooter should have a chance to experience true quality and what gun makers can do. That action locks up so perfectly, the trigger is like a micro velvet thunderbolt. Quality shouts from every detail of the severely angular stock. This is an experience everyone should have. Part of my purpose was to encompass all the nice guns that I read about, so from an economic point of view there’s something to this in comparison with owning a lot of different guns. And then there’s the shooting capability… (By the same token, the idea of an 8 year old bouncing a $3000 rifle off the concrete makes me shudder.) Anyway, the general psychology I’ve read about here is not unlike a bunch of monks who annually host a dinner for the homeless that is made up of super first class food served in high end style rather than spreading the equivalent out in soup kitchens….

      Matt61



  14. Mike Reames’ address,

    Mike Reames has contacted me and here is his email address for anyone who would like to get one of these adapters:

    reames@wcoil.com

    Mike has other novel airgun things, such as the ball-flask pistols I showed you in the Roanoke report this year, and I am talking to him about getting one to test for you.

    B.B.



    • Victor,

      The two systems are somewhat compatible in this way. While Picatinny has 5mm grooves, Weaver has 3.5mm grooves. Also, Picatinny grooves are evenly spaced, where Weaver grooves aren’t.

      So, a Weaver base will fit a Picatinny rail, as long as you mount it with the cross key pressed against the groove in the direction of recoil. But a mount made for Picatinny will not fit a Weaver base, because the grooves aren’t wide enough.

      B.B.


      • BB

        This is exactly the type of “basic” information that should be include on a glossary page, should it be resurrected. I thought they were interchangable, only that a picatinny rail had evenly spaced grooves over the length of the base, while a weaver base did not. Thanks for the clarification.

        I will be looking forward to part three of the review of this rifle, in which you include your trademark macro photos of a two year refinish job, in addition to the accuracy results which I consider the coup de grace of your reports. I am not casting aspersions, as the refinish was basically free, and you weren’t waiting on the rifle to defend the homestead. I just want to see how pretty it actually is.

        BTW: Bullseye bucks should be awarded for guest blogs IMHO. This might give you a reprieve from the ‘grind’ of writing, so you could enjoy your shooting without the pressure of recording every damn thing and writing something about it.


        • SL,

          I hadn’t planed on any macros of the 114, but for you I will do it. Good suggestion on the Bullseye Bucks, too!

          B.B.


  15. B.B., why did it take two years to get your gun back??? On the general subject of customer service, Kevin, I’m sorry to hear about your bad experience with Leapers. I’ve thought that their lifetime guarantee was one of their stronger features, and when the time came for me to take them up on it, they followed through. I will say they were very scrupulous in inquiring as to what the problem was and that it couldn’t be fixed. And the replacement scope judging by wear on one of the lens caps looked like a used and possibly returned model. The click action on the turrets, which is why I returned the first one, was not that great on the replacement but it was at least usable whereas the replacement wasn’t. And in fairness to Leapers, I have to give them due credit for a new discovery of mine. At one point, I held forth at irritated length about their design that requires an Allen wrench to lock the turrets instead of a dial that you can twist with your fingers–a design with Centerpoint scopes that I think is much better. I still think that the Centerpoint model is better, but the Leapers method is workable too. As a blog reader suggested, just don’t lock the turrets. I had assumed from the somewhat mushy feel of the turrets that they had to stay locked to retain zero. But that turns out not to be true. Mounted on my Savage 10FP with its centerfire recoil, the zero maintains itself from one session to the next and even between dismountings. They have a quality product, but everyone has to make their own judgment about what is acceptable customer service.

    Victor, how about this? Given one position to shoot regularly, is it fair to say that standing will give you the most mileage because it is easier to adapt it to the more stable prone and sitting positions than vice-versa? This is one element of my heroic compression in my tiny shooting range. I don’t really have room for a lot of different positions for the airgunning. And, even if I did, I believe that by only shooting offhand, I’m getting some of the elements of going from hard to easier which is the rationale for driving first with a stick shift before automatic and shooting with irons before a scope. So the question is to what degree one position can be used for the others and if standing is the best.

    That golf ball feat with the unrested pistol is quite something. It seems like just about anything is possible. I had missed that point about how a three dimensional object is easier to shoot than a two dimensional target. Maybe this lies behind the objections to “paper-punching” which I had interpreted as an indirect exhortation to hunt. Perhaps there’s more to it. Now, why would a 3D object be easier? I suspect it has to do with the depth perception one gains from binocular vision, triangulating on the object. And maybe it is also related to the extra motivation one derives from the prospect of knocking over or destroying something as opposed to punching a hole. I still recall with pleasure the tip of the concrete block that I disintegrated at 100 yards with the Savage 10FP.

    With regards to making the blog accessible to new readers, what JohnG10 and others have described sounds like what they call “best practices” in the library world and maybe elsewhere. That is best procedures for common issues or questions digested into short pieces, but choosing the right things and extracting them from the blogs would be a chore. Slinging Lead’s idea of a checklist makes a lot of sense to me from rc flying. :-) It won’t take care of every possible mistake but it’s bound to eliminate many just like the checklists used by real pilots.

    J-F, not to worry about your motorcycle getting repossessed by Lizard Lick. While their methods for getting vehicles are totally unscrupulous, they are very strict about having repossession papers in hand, so as long as you don’t have a lienholder after your motorcycle, you are safe. And on a visit you could enjoy the repartee with which they keep people at bay as in this scene.

    Lizard Lick: You don’t want to get out of that car.
    Angry Man: Scared?
    LL: I ain’t scared.
    AM: Boy, let me tell you one thing.
    LL: You tell me two things.
    AM: Where, I come from, they whip boys like you.
    LL: Where you come from, they’re still trying to get electricity(!)

    That really cracked me up–even more than when the angry man attacked by leaping off his car in a flying dive that was intercepted in mid-air by the Lizard Lick employee. Ouch. I believe I also arrived at an insight into why people are so POed when their cars get repossessed. Something about one’s mobility is tied to their very identity. I believe on balance they get even angrier than they would at having guns stolen. Proof: The Lizard Lick people managed to wrestle away a shotgun that was held on them and flee with the car they had been seeking. The owners pursued them back to their lot to continue the question. They gave up on the car readily enough but were adamant about retrieving the moonshine in the back. Some actually lost control of themselves when they found that some bottles were broken. But not a word about the missing shotgun….

    Matt61


    • Matt61,
      Regarding 3-D objects, and why they are easier to shoot than paper targets – You know, I haven’t given it much thought. I first noticed this (since I’ve never really been a plinker) when I took my .22 Gamo Hunter Extreme out to the desert to shoot at a frying pan. I wrote about that experience and how it seemed pretty easy to hit at 100 yards. Someone here said that objects were easier than targets. In my experience, they are correct about this. I suspect that a small object is easier because as a target, there is less distraction. When you’re shooting at a paper target, you’re trying to hit the center relative to the entire sheet. On the other hand, when you’re shooting at an object, your focus is on that object alone. I think it’s also related to the line on the movie The Patriot, “Aim small, miss small”. Maybe others here have a better explanation?
      Victor


    • Matt61,

      Regarding positions to practice. As a rule, you mostly practice the position that gives you the most trouble. However, if you’re weak in the “easier” positions, then you must solve those first. In my competitions days, shooting a 200 in prone was a must indoors. Shooting at least a 197 in kneeling was a must. Shooting at least a 190 in the offhand position was also a must. Where I tended to unreasonably drop points was in the sitting position. Even though I was in great shape, I had the greatest pulse in the sitting position. For most, sitting was the second easiest position, but not for me. Also, since I was more of an international shooter, I rarely needed to shoot sitting.

      If I were training a shooter, I’d require that they clean prone regularly before putting too much emphasis on other positions. I’d then move them through the sitting, kneeling, and finally offhand positions, with some minimum expectation at each. If you’re not cleaning prone indoors, you still haven’t masters the fundamentals. You have to have mastered the fundamentals in at least prone, and preferably in all three non-offhand positions. Shooting outdoors opens up a whole new set of issues that go beyond the basics.

      In any case, once the fundamentals are mastered, then you have to deliberately set out to solve specific problems that might be plaguing you. This usually requires careful analysis of what is causing motion. You have to be goal-oriented, and very patient. It’s also a great idea to keep notes of what you learned during a practice session. I personally can’t keep track of all of the details that I’ve learned over time. I’ve gone into a practice session essentially starting all over again because I forget some critical detail. It’s important to realize that if you start off on the wrong foot, everything else suffers, and you might even fight yourself to the point of learning bad habits. When you learn something that is key, write it down.

      I mentioned recently that I often solve my problems at the end of a shooting session. That’s when you write things down so you don’t forget. Also, trust that the fundamentals matter, and that there is no way around them. You’re hold, your sight-alignment, your trigger squeeze, and your follow-through REALLY MATTER, so be very mindful that you’re doing all of these things correctly. Failure to do any one of these things, and not realizing it, will leave you discouraged, and even confused (trust me, I’ve been there many times). And remember what I’ve said before about wobble-area. – It’s your friend. You simply can’t do better than your wobble area, so never try to compensate for it. The best you can usually do is improve on the timing of a shot. Lots of shooters try to “catch” the bulls eye by “reacting to the miss”. In other words, they try to somehow swing the gun to the opposite direction of their motion. That’s a REALLY BAD thing to do. You should always dry-fire, and especially sometime within a practice session as a sort of “spot check”. You should also try to call your shots. Finally, the only way to make all of this fall into place, sort of second nature, is to practice a lot.

      Victor



        • Chuck,

          The beauty of the practice of “calling shots” is that it REQUIRES that you follow-through. If you don’t follow-through, then you’ve effectively ended your shot execution prematurely, which often means that you stopped focusing and thinking (being conscious) about the shot before you should have. Shooters who never follow-through often actually start dropping their gun a tiny fraction of a second before they’ve finished pulling the trigger.

          The best way to practice calling shots is to do it with someone else at the spotting scope exclusively. If you do this often enough, it helps to cure the problem of jerking your neck at the spotting scope to see where the shot went. Having someone else at the spotting scope helps you to relax better throughout the entire shot all the way until after the follow-through. It’s the spotting scape that often makes us not follow-through.

          In a nutshell, the practice of following-through helps us become more conscious, or aware, of our shot execution. As with so many things, the more information we have, the better we’re able to address related issues.

          Victor


          • Victor,
            Yours are excellent words of wisdom. I do have first hand knowledge on both sides of that coin. There have been rare times when I absolutly knew, before I even pulled the trigger, that it was going to be a 10 and it was. There have been other times when I thought I was rock solid with good followthrough, and could actually see the barrel do a quick, slight dip. Then on the next shot I realize it’s caused a by bad trigger pull. You know this is kinda like golf in a way.


            • Chuck,
              When I practice, sometimes I’m smart and actually try to capture the experience of the perfect shot (or 10). I can actually see and feel a good shot, and the experience is very different from a bad shot. The goal is to then try to repeat that experience. But again, you have to consciously try to “capture” the whole experience, and that won’t happen without good follow-through. So, when you “know” that great shot, you’re effectively calling a 10.
              Victor



    • Matt,

      Thanks. I had forgotten completely.

      I just put the title on my work page so I won’t forget it now.

      Thanks again,

      B.B.


  16. Seems to me that leaving the coupler on the barrel with a cartridge it might add too much weight to the front. I know some shooters like a front heavy gun but I wonder if this would be too much.


  17. Hello B.B. You asked us what guns we would like to have tested, and I would like to put down the Feinwerkbau P11 Piccolo as a possible choice. I realize that it is $1200.00 plus, but by the looks of the numbers and the ambidextrous handle. The fact that it is so short while maintaining a 61/2 inch barrel, light weight, {1.5 lbs.) and an 85 shot count, and the 495 fps, would make it legal up here in the Great White North too. I know I would get one for plinking and possible competition . Besides, every airgun addict should own a Feinwerkbau of some type in their life. Just a suggestion mind you. Thank you and Edith for all you efforts in maintaining a World Class Blog.
    T. Groan


    • Titus,

      Okay, I have a real problem with the Piccolo. It isn’t a 10 meter pistol! It doesn’t have target grips, so nobody is going to choose it for competition. What does that leave? Plinking? At $1,300 you’re paying an awful lot for a plinker.

      I don’t know why they produce a gun with these specifications when it obvious that no serious shooter will buy one.

      The low price is great. If they just had an adjustable grip and charged $100 more this could be a wonderful airgun.

      B.B.


      • Yes, I agree with all you have to say. And have thought about these drawbacks for a while. Still, a 6 inch Feinwerkbau barrel would be super accurate and the fact that I shoot pistol left hand, while my daughter uses her right hand would make this a family gun. Who knows, my wife might even get involved because of the lack of recoil. The price of $1200.00, is still steep for such a gun though.
        Titus


  18. BB,way to go! You just may have solved a problem for me without being asked.I have been bothered lately by the fact that I can not fire the Giffard 8mm yet.The pressure vessel is in remarkable shape considering it’s age,at least cosmetically speaking.The seal on that big valve face went the way of the world quite some time ago.I’m dying to shoot it,as you can imagine.Dennis Q. is far too bogged down to mess with a second Giffard tank.He was successful with one for another collector.Apparently a guy in Ca. made a one-off tool and was in posses ion of the proprietary knowledge to open the tank.Dennis has forgotten the guy’s name too.Maybe I can get Mike Reams on board with an attempt or he might be willing to make a modern tank or Air source mounted replica valve for me!? This airgun begs to come out and play. :)


    • I’ve got some experience making fill adapters and fixing valves on the Giffard tanks.. Years ago, a friend and I made up some wrenches to fit.. Might be able to help..
      Email me if you have an interest Tom had posted it earlier
      Mike


  19. I really need one of these! I have a Model 112 (Basically, the pistol version of the 114), and my family lost the tank in the 50-60 years we have owned it. I have been trying to get it to work again, but I cannot find a proper adapter. If someone can direct me to somewhere where I can purchase this product, or something similar, that would be greatly appreciated!


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