by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Quackenbush Number 7 BB gun.
This report covers:
- Test 1 — 4.4mm copper-plated lead balls
- Test 2 — Avanti Precision Ground Shot
- Test 3 — 4.55mm zimmerstutzen balls
- BBs stay in
- Cocking effort
- Trigger pull
- Evaluation
Today is more for me than for all of you. Today I test the velocity of my Quackenbush Number 7 BB gun. If you read Part 1 you know that I only discovered this gun works while researching that report. Until then I thought it shot an odd size shot that I would have to source from an industrial supply house as a ball bearing. But it was made to shoot 0.175-inch lead BBs, so all I had to do was find some of them. Well, that isn’t easy, either. Fortunately I used to shoot zimmerstutzens and other odd ball-shooting airguns, so I have some oddball stuff laying around.
Until the day I wrote that last report I didn’t know I could shoot this airgun, so I’m learning about it right along with you. I showed you how the BBs load in Part 1. Today I will test the velocity of two different lead balls of slightly different size and one additional surprise. Let’s get right to it.
Test 1 — 4.4mm copper-plated lead balls
In the 1990s when I was writing The Airgun Letter, there was a pawnshop in South Carolina selling Haenel 310 ball-shooting rifles imported from the former East Germany. Along with the guns, they also brought in a huge supply of copper-plated lead balls. I bought a lifetime supply of these balls and I still have plenty of them on hand. Upon reflection, I guess that’s a good thing, huh?
These copper-plated 4.4mm lead balls are really just slightly smaller.
The label says they are 4.4mm, but you know me. My caliper measures them at 4.39mm which is 0.173-inches. That puts them at the high side of today’s steel BBs. But it also makes them 0.002-inches too small for this airgun. They fall deep into the breech when loaded, but so far all have worked. They weigh between 7.5 and 7.8 grains, so we know the velocity is going to be lower that it would with steel, but since I would have to BB-gage every BB to find BBs that are big enough to shoot, I guess that doesn’t matter.
I shot 10 balls for an average velocity of 245 f.p.s. So the velocity is about that of a Daisy 499, but since these balls are about half again as heavy as steel, the Number 7 is a more powerful BB gun.
The velocity ranged from a low of 217 f.p.s. to a high of 256 f.p.s. Besides that one slow shot, all other shots went 242 f.p.s. or faster. So, 9 of the 10 shots ranged from 242 to 256 f.p.s., which is just 14 f.p.s.
Test 2 — Avanti Precision Ground Shot
Knowing the size of the lead balls gave me an idea. I knew that Avanti Precision Ground Shot runs large, so I measured 4 of them. Three were 0.1735-inches and the fourth was 0.173-inches. That’s the same size as the lead balls, or just a little larger. In fact 0.1735-inches is 4.4mm on the nose. They weigh only 5.5 grains, so they will be faster. Knowing they fit the breech, I tried them in the gun.
Ten Avantis averaged 296 f.p.s. with a spread from 291 to 306 f.p.s. That’s just 15 f.p.s., with no anomalous shots. Based on that, I’m going to try these in the accuracy test, too.
Test 3 — 4.55mm zimmerstutzen balls
This is where my fascination with zimmerstutzens pays off. Back when I had a couple zimmers I never passed up an opportunity to buy the lead balls for them. Even if they weren’t the correct caliber, I still bought them, because I never knew whether I might own one in that caliber one day.
These number 12 zimmerstutzen balls are 4.55mm in diameter.
Most people think all zimmerstutzens are just one caliber — 4mm, but the truth is there are more than 20 calibers, ranging from 4mm to 5.45mm. Not all of them are currently being produced, but shooting zimmerstutzens is still an active sport in Germany. I have several calibers of zimmer balls but the ones that excited me for this test are the ones that measure 4.55mm. I haven’t used them in 20 years, but today I opened the tin and went to work.
These balls measure 0.179-inches or 4.54mm in diameter. They weigh between 8.5 and 8.7 grains, so they are going to go slower. But they probably fit the bore of the gun much better. I shot them already a couple time, so I know they work.
These balls averaged 202 f.p.s. and ranged from a low of 134 to a high of 216 f.p.s. The low velocity was just one shot, and the next slowest shot went 195 f.p.s.
BBs stay in
Given the unusual loading procedure I showed in Part 1, I wonderded if the BBs were secure in the gun, or would they roll out when the muzzle is depressed. I loaded the gun and bumped the muzzle on the carpeted floor and the BB stayed put. That’s good enough for me.
Cocking effort
The Number 7 is cocked by pushing the barrel straight back. It takes 45 lbs. of effort to cock this BB gun, which means they were probably usually cocked by pushing the muzzle against something — not by pulling it back.
Trigger pull
The trigger is single stage and the gun has a direct sear. It releases with 8 lbs. 15 oz. of effort. Tha;’s my definition of a heavy trigger! It is free from creep though.
Evaluation
The Quackenbush Number 7 creaks and groans as it is cocked and shot. The trigger is stiff and crude and the sights are nothing to get excited about. But the fact that this old gun even works at all amazes me. It started out as next to nothing and now, nearly a century later, it’s an ancient next-to-nothing. It’s too lightweight and flimsy to work well, and yet it works just fine. I guess that is the attraction.
Next up will be accuracy. I’m not hoping for much, but you never know.
This is turning into an awesome little acquisition. Those are some very respectable velocity results. I would not be a bit surprised if it shot pretty good. It may not be suitable for hunting carpenter bees, but I bet it will give the pack of feral soda cans a fit.
RR,
We shall soon see. 😉
B.B.
Tom, many of US groan and creak as we get ready.
Some of us are kind of stiff, crude, and nothing to get excited about.
But as you say, it is a hundred years old, it’s still here, and doing what it was intended to do, who can ask for more than that?
I like old and unique.
A couple of friends. Ask what pleasure I derive from shooting my Daisy 179 when Umarex has a much better design that is more powerful and better made.
My response is, it was my first NEW BB gun, and it is an airgun that isn’t really an airgun.
45Bravo,
Yes to the groaning and creaking! I guess it is doing well, after all.
B.B.
45Bravo,
Can relate to groan and creak LOL! My knee is bothering me today so we must be in for a weather change.
Still have my original Slavia 618 which is shooting fine and my Crosman 101 which I am refurbishing.
Hank
Tomorrow! Texas Airgun Show. Yea!
BB, hope you found those barrels you think you have. Hoping for a .20 or .25 barrel to fit on a2240 platform.
See you there.
Jonah,
I found the barrels. They are all AirForce barrels from before Lothar Walther. All are .22 caliber and most are set up for a Talon SS. But they are cheap, at $10 each.
B.B.
HA! I think I am going to win the “Old Geezer Airgun Award”!
I shoot my 1906 BSA on a regular basis. It is 110 years old and I shoot it more than the rest of my “collection” combined.
Ha, the projectile vs. bore size issue spans all different kind of guns. I’ll get a chance to put my Lee-Enfield to the test tomorrow with factory ammo and my cool renactment webgear. I will also try out my modified CZ SP-01 with its $300 trigger job which I just received! The job, which involved installing a new hammer, is a definite improvement. But some preliminary trials indicates that it doesn’t quite match an undefinable something extra in the feel of the 1911. We will see.
Michael, which female fighters are you thinking of that have exceptional punching ability? I wasn’t really looking at Jorina’s strikes although she is a great champion fighter. Lucia Riker is supposed to be the ultimate in skill and ability for women fighters. However the one time she fought a man in a Thai boxing fight, she was knocked out in two rounds. I suppose that fighting is a sport with one of the greatest disparities between the genders. But it is interesting to think of what constitutes a man or woman. Katie Ledecky is one of the greatest swimmers of all time. But when she threw out the first pitch the other day in an Orioles game, she threw just like a girl (although quite accurately). Even her coach says that he sometimes cannot believe that she is one of the greatest athletes on the planet because she drags her feet like an uncoordinated teenager when she walks. And as for women fighting, Jack Dempsey was known for being especially tough in a time when boxing was much less regulated. He would regularly knock out his sparring partners and was described as having very bad intentions. But on a tour of Germany, he attended a boxing match with women, a novelty at the time, and thought it was barbaric.
As for the level of punching technique in boxing, I can believe that it has deteriorated. This tallies with Jack Dempsey who claimed that the art of boxing has been in a long decline since the early twentieth century. However, the punch mechanics are too internalized and fast for me to see. But this does raise the interesting question of George Foreman. He was an obvious clubber with no punching technique and yet he was one of the most devastating punchers of all time. While big and strong, he was not that much more than other heavyweights. How did he do it?
Matt61
Kalamazoo airgun show Sunday. Pyramyd air donated some really nice raffle prizes.
I was living in Wisconsin, and was planning to attend Kalamazoo, but the company I work for needed me in Massachusetts for an indefinite period of time.
So no airgun show.
This state has some screwed up gun laws.
My m1 carbine is classified as an assault weapon because it has a detachable mag (that holds more than 10 rounds,) a folding stock, and a pistol grip.
But put it in a GI standard stock, it’s legal. Other than the magazine.
Go figure.
And don’t get me started on ar-15’s in Massachusetts..
At least for the moment airguns are still legal here..
I am waiting for the day I can go back to a free state….
If this is truly a child’s gun and has that kind of cocking force, I wonder how many muzzles were damaged or packed with dirt on accident? Just a funny thought that occurred to me.
PH
You been shooting that Slavia anymore?
GF1
Yeah but not as much as I’d like. It has been windy during my shooting time. I tried a couple different pellets but most have grouped similarly. I have found that slim stock has fooled me on sight alignment. Ill get two groups when shooting. Its pretty cool even though I don’t shoot it great and it might not even shoot that great. I’m hoping when I’m done hangin with my brother and his kids I’ll get a chance to really put some shots downrange. I really wish I had some hobbies and other lighter weight lead pellets to experiment with.
PH
How about those pointed Crosman premier’s. They surprised me.
GF1
I did shoot one group. It was the first one. I wasn’t that warmed up and hadn’t cleaned the barrel. Plus I only shot one group not giving it a fair chance. I’m starting to think I should give it a quick cleaning. This gun is 40+ yrs old as I’m guessing and it may pay off to run a swab of some kind through to inspect.
Anyway. The group I shot with the points wasn’t great but wasn’t that much worse. I think they could be good ammo for just taking down pest cans. 🙂
PH
Maybe so on the cleaning. Is the gun for group shooting or can plinking? I guess some accuracy is still desired for plinking though too.
So you don’t shoot the hw30 anymore? One of these days I think I may end up with one. I went back and forth with myself on the hw50 verses the 30. Got the 50 and still wish I would of tryed a 30. I still was kind of power hungry when I got the 50 so that’s why I got it over the 30. I think the lower power springers are hard to beat for shooting enjoyment and even accuracy wise on some guns.
Either way as we mentioned before. Air gun shooting tends to be easier to do verses firearms. I shoot air guns way more than shoot my firearms. And I can shoot either here. Anyway time to shoot some air guns before supper time gets here. 🙂
GF1
Actually I am only shooting those two. Its kinda weird. The power of them is what I’m diggin right now. I have been shooting the hw30 with rws
r-10 pellets. My groups were cut in half at 10 meters. They are still larger vertically. Ctc horizontally is less than. 25″ vertically is still .600-.700″ weird but I know it’s aiming error on my part. I think a premium (to me) scope will be in order down the road. Right after the mrod trigger for maxi. Still got a while to wait.
I’ve been on both sides of the velocity curve and I’ve got to say, less is more for me. I had such an internal battle on whether to get the the 30 or 50. Well I had put a lot of effort into deciding and I think the 30 was a wise choice. I haven’t looked back.
I do want another wierauch one day. I’m really looking at the hw95. Id like to take it down to somewhere between 9-12 fpe and see where I like it best.
U bet it is. I’m hoping to get out in a bit. Its nice because you can just fit it into your schedule on a busy day. Thats what I’m going for at least 🙂
PH
Try taking your thumb from your trigger hand and placing it behind the main tube on the stock of the gun. Place your thumb right in the center and apply a little downward pressure on your hold. I think that will work. I mentioned that to Chris U with his springers and he got better results.
If you try it let me know how it works for you.
GF1
Well I got a chance to shoot last night. Only for like an hour. I first cleaned the barrel and the patch was filthy black. I dropped some rws chamber oil in the barrel and shot a few pels through. I kept visually inspecting the barrel and looking for puffs at the end of the barrel. I have been dieseling a bit and in addition the chamber oil makes a misty puff sometimes. Once I got the gun settled down I shot some more falcons. I’m perfecting a hold but haven’t got far. Its shooting around an inch at 13yds. At 20yds I blasted an aluminum bottle and the smack that pellet put on it was pretty impressive. There is a huge dent in the can before penetration. I have a same kind of can I shot with the maximus and the pellet zipped right through. Not as cool lol. I guess it’s kinda like a 30-06 vs a 30-30. I get that short range knock down power lol. 🙂
I’ve been trying to keep my thumb pressure and location consistent, but I can tell my wrist is “different feeling” sometimes. I just need to keep practicing.
PH
Sounds like you got the barrel clean.
And yep I like when the can gets hit with the punch. Reminds me about a starling I shot once some time back. Had like 3 pumps in a 1377 with a .22 caliber Discovery barrel and breech on it. And of course the 1399 stock. I hit it in the head. It’s like the pellet just lobbed out there to it. It was about 30 yards I seen the arch trajectory pellet flight the whole way till it contacted. The way it looked I thought it wasn’t even going to do anything when it hit. Wrong it made that bird do a back flip it hit so hard.
And the reason I suggested the thumb pressure is that it usually helps with a vertical group. A horizontal group I usually try to tighten up my trigger hand grip and make sure I pull the trigger straight through. The main thing though is to have fun. 🙂
PH
And hey wait a minute. Ain’t a hw95 a Weirauch?
Oh never mind. I thought you said you (didn’t) want another Weirauch.
Punchin Holes,
Yep. That’s what happened.
B.B.
Had some interesting things go on this week. But first about this old lucky no. 7 bb gun.
Really, 45 pounds to cock and 8.5 pound trigger. We’re kids stronger in the old days or something? 😉
And got the 2nd Daisy 74 Thursday. And no time to do anything till today. Shot it side by side with the first 74 I got last weekend. It’s a shooter too.
It starts to poi low pretty much at the same shot count as the first 74. Alot alot of shots per 12 gram co2 cartridge just like the other one. The only thing different is I had to put 2 clicks of up adjustment in elevation. Didn’t have to mess with the windage adjustment.
Me and the oldest daughter had a blast today. We were both rolling the cans down a hill keeping them moving. We was shooting at or own can. Then they crossed halfway down the hill. It was like open season after that. We pulled em off as fast as we could pull the trigger. And I don’t mean 1 second between shots. We stopped and put 15 bb’s back in the spring loaded magazine. This time we decided to see if the guns would keep. It sounded almost like a machine gun during between the two of us firing. Wasted that can is all I can say.
If nobody has never done that type of shooting you don’t know what your missing. Fun stuff. 🙂
And to the interesting part stuff about this week. Ended up getting a job at a shop that is competition to our shop. Same types of machines and equipment. The new company that bought our place a little while back also bought a new building. Air conditioned and all. Well they finally took possession of the building last week. Guess what happened. Started moving people to different shifts. Started cutting pay and changing what type of work you do. And not honoring seniority like they said they would. Well long story short. They told me about what I was going to be and along with others. 5 of us walked out Tuesday. And 3 more quit today. Guess we’re the others went that quit also. Same shop as I went too. Oh and forgot. I have worked at that shop in the past. When I was younger when things got slow at where I was. And ain’t going to say about pay and vacation and job title. Other than better than what I was doing.
Things can go different ways and nobody really knows the out come till time goes on. But people I know still at the old place say things are breaking down and not getting fixed already. I don’t wish anything bad on them. But everybody already started making plans for the if and when it happened thing. Pretty sure more will be leaving.
Anyway. Getting ready to eat and back to shoot’n. 🙂
Gunfun1
Hi and glad to see your work situation has improved for the better.
My Daisy 74 also arrived on Thursday. I have to admit I was surprised at how small it is. It did have a few minor problems out of the box, the best being the grip plastic that stuck out into the co2 cartridge loading bay. I had to look a few times to see what was wrong and then it was a few seconds with a utility knife to remove the excess plastic. The cartridges load and gravity eject fine now.
So I loaded co2 and a full reservoir of BB’s and started shooting paper from 7 yards. After 3 mags of 16 shots I was shaking my head because the groups were really poor. Large and perfectly centered. about 2 1/2″ group size. I have shot enough now to recognize a dirty barrel when I see groups like that.
After a good clean with a .177 nylon bristle brush soaked in Jig-A-Loo and then a .177 mop which picked up a bunch of metal flakes. I could not believe how dirty the barrel was. Then dryed out the mop and then the barrel and back to shooting paper
Much better now with 1 5/16 groups at 7 yards. I’m being honest, the group is a little large, mostly because I’m shooting 16 shot groups and excluding at least 2 flyers, so, basically shooting a 14 shot group and I am also the worst shot with iron sights.
The 12 1/2′ trigger pull is way to short for me so I taped an extension butt pad on the stock with black cloth hockey tape and then hid the mess with some of that funny camo tape that sticks only to itself – neat stuff. The pull is now about 14″ which I can live with. Later I will do a proper job and mount the extension with filler blocks and screws. While I was there I popped out the front sight with a roll punch – just punch the nub sticking out the underside of the barrel and the whole front sight block is free.
With the sight block out I could now see the action is the same as the Legends PO8 or the Jericho style BB pistol where the barrel is sprung and is the hammer. I also noted the barrel floated a bit too much in the front sight block, it has to be loose but not that loose so I layered up a couple of pieces of shrink tube over the barrel and got the float down to a much smaller amount but still with the barrel able to move back and forth without binding. This should increase the overall accuracyWhile I had the front sight block removed I took a hacksaw and carefully removed the front sight and ramp. I cleaned the plastic up with a small block plane and then finished filed to fit the shroud properly. I then put a piece of shrink tube the length of the sight block over the metal shroud and shrunk her down tight.
You’re probably wondering where I’m going here!!!
Well It turns out that the shroud shimmed out with the shrink tube the diameter is perfect to press fit (tap lightly with a small hammer) an SKS Flash Hider/Compensator. A pin can then be banged into the slot to sit flat on the sight block which will stop the flash hider from rotating. It’s so tight I dont think it will rotate but it looks better with the pin.
And now I have a BB gun with no front sight.
No problem as I have an older Leapers Tact Edge Red Dot Sight with a full length dovetail mount. A little filing of the dovetail on the gun – just enough to flatten it – and the Leapers Scope mounted perfectly.
It’s funny how things go. That old scope came off of a .177 cal, AK style B3 pellet rifle and on the 74 it was within 4 clicks (both windage and elevation) of perfect zero.
So back to shooting and now seeing 16 shot group sizes of:
1 3/16″ at 7 yards
1 5/8″ at 10 meters/11 yards
2 1/4″ at 15 yards
Discounting at least 2 called flyers per group
All groups were shot from the off hand standing position.
All told I’m going to call this gun Very Interesting and will shoot it a whole bunch more this weekend. Hope it does well.
BTW writing this blog entry took about 1/3rd of the time it took to finish the BB gun!!
Cheers Dave
Dave
You sure went through a lot on your 74. Both of the ones we got still throw a flyer high and right or left sometimes, well all directions when they want. But it might happen twice in 15 shots or not for a magazine. It happens pretty speratic. I’m not a bb gun shooter normally. And took the flyers as being common. And I thought maybe it was the lighter weight or something. But the Smart Shot copper coated lead bb’s shoot the same.
And I thought the second 74 we just got wasn’t going to be as accurate as the first. But after about 200 shots through it it’s shooting just as good as the first one. So maybe the dirty barrel thing is what happens at first like you mentioned when they come out of the box.
But I do have to ask. When you pushed your barrel cleaners in the barrel what kept all the dirt and whatever from going inside the gun. Like the spot where the bb transfers from the 15 shot magazine to the barrel?
Gunfun1
The trick to cleaning a closed breech is to use the right ends on the cleaning rod. I use a tapered nylon bristle brush, fairly stiff followed by a .177 mop. Measure to the loading port as best you can and carefully run the brush, dry, into that point. If you can feel the brush hit the loading port backup about 3/8″. Mark the cleaning rod at the muzzle end and remove slowly while turning against the rod threads.
Next thoroughly soak the brush in a solvent of your choice, but not a firearm cleaning solvent. My favorites in order of preference are Jig-A-Loo (I use in place of Ballistol), ordinary spray silicone from the hardware store and if you have a heavy crud buildup lighter fluid (Ronson or Coleman Camp Fuel works well. No BBQ Starter Fluid as we’re not sure what’ s in that stuff).
Take the soaked brush and run it up and down the barrel, to the mark, turning constantly a few times. Remove and wipe dry on a white cloth. This will show up the dirt. Do this several times till the cloth shows clean.
Then take the mop, soaked, and run it down the barrel till it gently touches the loading port. At that point gently start turning the mop while withdrawing . Any crud pushed down the barrel should now adhere by surface tension of the solvent to the end of the soaked mop. Do this carefully several times, cleaning on a white cloth and resoaking each time.
When it comes out clean soak one last time and dry on a clean rag then swab out the barrel a couple of times to dry.
It’s a bit of a procedure but works for me on all my closed breech guns, both BB and pellet.
I fired off a few mags this morning and I just like how the gun feels now. The SKS flash hider weighs about 4 ounces and puts just the right amount of weight at the muzzle to make the gun comfortable and stable to shoot.
I found a barrel mount bipod and will give it a try this evening. I don’t have high hopes for bipod shooting as the mass of the steel barrel moving back during the firing cycle does so with enough force to make the gun feel almost like a springer. Preliminary shots this morning were not promising!!
We shall see…
Cheers
Dave
Dave
Ok on the cleaning. Think I would still be weary of getting something pushed into the wrong place.
And don’t know how well the bi-pod will work either on that gun. But what I have seen so far with the bb shooting guns verses pellet shooting guns the pellet shooting guns seem to always be more accurate.
The 1077 with the Bugbuster scope will blow the Daisy 74 away when it comes to extending the shooting distance. But for fun and plinking out to 20 yards the 74 is just as much of a blast as the 1077. I think the 74 is more a plinker than a target shooting groups type of gun. But ease of shooting is much better than the 1077.
Oh and yes I removed that flash were the co2 cartridge is loaded into the gun. Definitely makes it easier to get the cartridge out when done.
Weren’t we talking about the Sig airgun line a few blogs ago?
Well, curiosity killed the cat..
Just got off the phone with sig.
They have discontinued all of the .22 air rifle and air pistol production.
Reasons, given not enough interest in the .22 line, the velocity was not what Sig had anticipated in .22 caliber.
And an abnormally high failure rate in testing the .22 guns as opposed to the .177 guns.
So there you have it, if you can get or still have a pre production .22 that was sent to you for testing, see if you can buy it.
There will be no more according to them.
Now on the other side of the coin, the .177 is in such high demand, they can’t keep up with the orders.
Grab 2 if you can, one to shoot, one to collect.
They may eventually be the equivalent of the early S&W 78-79 guns.
45Bravo
So do you mean .22 caliber pistols? I’m not up on what Sig has in air guns. Would like to know more.
Sorry, I was aparently mistaken.
I thought you had posted some stuff about the Sig airgun line the other day.
But yes, Sig Sauer introduced a pair of co2 rifles at shot show 2015, a .177&.22 belt fed co2 ar-15 styled rifles.
They have had the .177 on the market for a while, there is even a hpa conversion for them so you don’t drop velocity with cool down.
They have been promising a .22 and a pcp version, but in a year and a half, nothing.
So I called to see what was the expected date of release.
They have discontinued the .22 airgun line, but NOT their 22 Rimfire guns.
They make co2 replicas of most of their line, and including the mcx, and mpx rifles.
And the .177’s are selling like hot cakes.
45Bravo
Ok I do remember that. I needed the old brain refreshed.
And so did they mention the hpa pcp conversion for the .177 models?
They would make for some fun action guns I do believe. They are on the high side cost wise but then again cheaper than the cx-4 if I remember right.
But yep sounds like a cool can killer to me.
Gunfun1
As I mentioned before I have never had any problems cleaning my closed breach guns this way for at least the last almost 45 years or more.
Just think, they used to clean muskets in the olden days by pouring boiling water down the muzzle. I think a nice soft cotton mop used properly might be a betterwapp way of doing it.
Just sitting here finishing lunch I had a revelation about why the 74 shoots flyers every so often. Think airsoft snipers and how those long inner barrels are stabilized with a bunch of donut shaped barrel stabilizers. I bet if you look you will not find any stabilizers inside the 74’s shroud. Hard to do because of the movement. As the gun shoots there might be a shockwave travelling along the barrel every few shots with enough energy to bend the barrel inside the shroud just enough to cause a flyer.
Something to think about.
Will let you know this evening how the bipod shooting turns out.
I’m in the middle of mowing the lawn so I gotta go n’ make hay.
Cheers
Dave
Dave
Well air guns ain’t muskets that’s for sure. Different things in a air gun that can collect particles of things that I bet could cause feed problems.
And yes Fido 3030 mentioned in the past about making a bushing to take up play in the barrel on a 74. For me not worried about it. And the 1077’s are similar. I’m not trying to pull every once of accuracy that I can out of my 74’s and 1077. I use them basically for some quick enjoyment. I got other pellet guns that I can get serious with.
But of course. If you find out more tricks to improve the 74 I’m definitely interested in hearing about them. So do please tell about them as you go. 🙂
GF1,
Have you ever heard of anyone doing (shroud) to (barrel) bushings on an M-rod?
Chris U
You remember when I told you about that mod of drilling out the holes on that plastic peice on the front of the barrel. It has a o-ring on the outside diameter of it. That o-ring helps keep the barrel and shroud centered to each other.
The only thing that I can think of is like what we did on the Discovery barrel that held the barrel secure to the main tube or air resivoir. We drilled and tapped threads for set screws. We put 3 set screws to hold the band to the resivoir and I believe if I remember right 3 to hold the barrel in the band. The barrel basically didn’t move. I played with moving that band forward or backwards on the barrel and main tube to try changing harmonics by where I clamped the barrel to the main tube. It did tighten the Discovery’s groups up.
What I have thought about back when I had the .22 Mrods that were being finicky shooting but never tryed this.
That was to drill and tap threads for set screws 3 places on the front shroud protector up by where you fill the gun. I would let that inner peice that’s on the front of the barrel with the o-ring hold the barrel and shroud true to each other. Then tighten them 3 set screws you placed in that front peice and lock the shroud and barrel down tight in that band.
My .25 Mrod could improve doing that too. But also could hurt performance in accuracy of groups.
I just don’t know. But something to think about trying. As it goes you never know till you try.
GF1,
Big storm. Internet down for a few. I was thinking (inside) the shroud. The M-rod barrel is pretty stout. Maybe barrel to shroud bushings would benefit a “soda straw” barrel the most?
If I can find the stuff easy,…. I will try it. You know me,…. always willing to try and play with something new.
Chris U
That’s exactly what that front peice on the barrel does. It supports the barrel solid to the shroud.
That’s the last place the pellet exits the barrel.
The only thing to do to lock up the barrel and shroud solid would be to do the setscrews in the band. Or make a sleeve that could be pressed inbetween the shroud outside diameter and the inner diameter of the band where the shroud passes through.
That would lock the barrel up the tightest.
Gunfun1
Do you by chance have the location or date of Fido3030’s comments on the barrel shims.
Thanks
Dave
Dave
Fido303 commented today. Reply to him. He can give you details.
And no I don’t remember which blog we was talking about it on. Sorry.
Gunfun1
Just looking at the blog I see I may have clicked the wrong Reply button. Check for my reply to your last blog entry.
Cheers
Dave
GF1,
Glad you were able to turn the work situation around into something better. Ain’t all that corporate buying and selling and restructuring just a blast? ;( I do not know how many “critical” people worked where you were at, but losing that many will have to hurt them.
I did get out yesterday with the 33.95’s at 70 yards. I backed the port screw back out to 4 thinking the heavier pellet might like that extra bit of air. The groups sizes were all at around 1 1/2″, fliers included,.. but the sub-groups looked way better than the 25.39’s. Of course, I think I am giving up on putting much faith in sub-groups,… even if they are 4,5 or 6 of 8. I will have to see them repeat on a consistent basis first.
I am pretty sure I have something in hold pressures going on. Doing 8 in row at a nice steady, easy pace makes it easy to repeat,… but there must be something subtle. I will keep playing. The fliers are what is really bugging me. I would swear 100% that everything is the same and then a flier 3/4″ ~ 1″ off the previous 4 or 5. At that point, (actual) swearing usually follows. 😉 It is either something in the gun, me or the pellets. Oh well. It is still a lot of fun.
Chris U
Oh their going to have problems where I use to work. This happened in the past because of other situations. What ends up is a few knowledgeable people stay. They work their butts off because they hire what we call button pushers. The machines we had are not cnc’s. So when I say button pushers I mean somebody to put material on the machine and hit the go button and check parts. So they are like monkeys running machines. They may know just enough to be a problem. Then the knowledgeable person has to come change tools and make adjustments for the dimensions. And if the machine breaks mechanically they have to fix it also. So eventually they get wore down with all the situation’s going on and don’t do as good as they should.
What starts happening is quality of the parts being produced is not good. Sometimes parts will get sent back so that ruins the reputation of the shop with the customer. It’s usually never a good thing when that happens. Believe me I seen it throughout time there. Oh well that’s what happens when corporate people don’t value skilled workers. It will be interesting there I know.
And back to the fun stuff. Air guns. 🙂
So you still got them dreaded flyers. Hmm maybe you need to get you another .25 Marauder and see if the same thing happens. I’m joking of course. Well kind of. That’s what gets me all the time too. I have had multiple Mrods in all calibers in gen1 and gen2. For the most part each gun was accurate. There was flyers with each gun. But some of them were better than others. Less flyers. And flyers that were not as far away from the main group. Some of the guns shot flyers alot farther from the main group.
That’s why I asked how far away from the main group is a flyer acceptable for the type of shooting you will be doing. If it’s a coyote let’s say at 50 yards. (And people I’m just trying to give a visual example of size here, so not interested in hearing if a .25 Mrod can take a coyote ate 50 yards or not.) So if your gun shoots a .600″ group at 50 yards and it gets 2 flyers out of 10 shots that are 1.375″ from the main group. Is that 1.375″ flyer still going to hit the coyote in the kill zone size for that animal at that distance. Obviously the gun that shoots all.600″ groups will be at better odds to make the kill. So i know if I take that 1.375″ flyer shot and try to hit a crow at 109 yards there’s probably going to be more of a chance to miss.
Yes no flyers are great. But remember my groups opened up from about 4 shots when we did that 100 yard competition. The other 6 shots where all pretty tight. So flyers will be. The next is try to reduce how far away they are from the main group or eliminate. Wich I know you been trying to get figured out.
Maybe your gun does need a good barrel cleaning. I usually don’t. But maybe you got a little snag on the rifling or something. With what all you have done so far I would try the barrel cleaning. I don’t think it will hurt performance.
GF1,
Just back in. Getting hot, even with a fan,…. just bearable. As for fliers,…. none are acceptable. That is not being realistic however,… so I will have to settle for plan “B”,.. and try to minimize and shrink them, as you said.
I did clean the barrel at around 2600-2700, based on empty .25 tins. I pulled the barrel and went from breech to muzzle. It is the T-Handle, coated flex cable, brass fittings, (swivel handle) type. I took it slow and easy. No better, no worse. That was probably 300-400 shots ago. I did not want to mention it because I know how you feel on cleaning.
I have some thoughts on trigger finger position. To be ideal, the safety, when straight down,… is about ideal. Instead, the trigger “feels” too far back. I mentioned that to Dave at RAI and he said that he kept the Gen. 1 and Gen, 2 the same,….. the same as an AR. My hand is 8 3/4″ spread and trigger finger is 3 1/8″ when measured from the web between fingers. ( I mention this so that any one can compare hand sizes ). People have said that my hands are “clubs”,…. so maybe I have an over sized hands/long finger thing going on. I do not know. I do have the over sized UTG Sniper grip on it,… which from what I have seen (read a lot), it is one of the fattest, if not the fattest,… out there.
The other thing is trigger stop. I like it short. It breaks after a slight pull through on stage 2 but then has a bit of over travel which must be completed. The added screws on the TX and LGU really helped. I tried adjusting the M-rod trigger and ended up with a longer pull through (prior to break) on stage 2. I did not care for that. I may have to play with that some more,…. but I like a trigger that stops (right) after the break. I am not sure the M-rod trigger can be adjusted to do that. Short 2nd stage pull through prior to break,…. and then a very quick stop.
As you can see,… still playin’. Today was not bad. No braggin’ rights for sure though. Tomorrow is looking ok,…. so will hit it more then.
Yup on all the “work” stuff. Been there, done that,… still doing it.
Chris,….. ( aka: “Wastin’ Lead” ) 😉
Chris U
I just measured my hand. Both measurements you gave my hand is a 1/8″ smaller. So not sure what that means as far as the hold goes.
And I have my Mrod trigger adjusted so there is about 1/4″ of first stage and once the shot breaks maybe a 1/16″ of over travel. So when I shoot it feels like a distinct stop after the shot breaks.
So I don’t know if you call that a short or long second stage. To me that’s a long second stage. Measure your trigger travel by holding a ruler at the trip of the blade. See where it stops movement at second stage and measure. Then pull a little more till the trigger stops. And measure that distance. I would like to know how yours measures out.
GF1,
I depends on how much you have to pull through the second stage as to weather I would consider it long or not.
As for mine,… measured at the front of the blade,…. 3/16″ first stage, followed by 1/8″ of second stage travel (to) a full stop. The break is somewhere in that 1/8″, about 1/2 way through I would say. That does not sound too bad at all,…. but when shooting,…. the first feels pretty long (which I do not care about) and the second “feels” like about 1/16″-1/8″ pull through, (break) and then what “feels” like about a 1/4″ over travel.
Yes, the 2 situations do (not) match. I did the test with the gun empty and safety off,…. and then did it cocked, fired. The 2 matched as best I could tell. Obviously, a little harder to measure during a dry shot. But the actual shooting feels different. It feels like obvious attention is required to pull through the trigger (after the break) until the trigger is at full stop.
That is the best I can describe it. Hand size? Who knows? Without an RAI stock for you to try, it is hard to say. I just know what “feels” like a more natural trigger finger position.
Chris U
I should of mentioned uncocked when I took those measurements.
I don’t know if it would help your accuracy but I think if you mess with the two screws in the trigger you can get your trigger better. Remember when is said those two screws don’t have to be turned opposite of each other. You can also turn both screws together in or out then adjust one or the other. That changes the sear location in a sense. So the trigger can be made to engage and break differently than just moving one or the other. It will make you get closer to a solid stop on second stage after the shot breaks if you give it a try.
GF1,
I will play with it some more.The manual was not much help and produced the opposite of what I wanted. At least I did try.
Chris U
Did you adjust it and try yet.
And did you miss my comment above about the barrel band and securing the barrel tight to the resivoir.
GF1,
I am experiencing just about the same thing as our company was sold in October. We have had quite a few people leave and I expect this trend will continue. The new owners have a slight advantage as the job market is not that good in our area, but I think that is about to change with two large companies building facilities just a few miles away. Hopefully I will be able to snag something soon myself.
Blasting away with the kids sounds like a great way to spend the day. I am looking forward to when my grandson can get by and teach him to shoot his brand new Daisy Buck we picked up for him.
RR
That’s the thing about this situation. The skilled workers which is what most everybody is there now does have the advantage.
There are 4 shops in our area that have the Swiss machines that we have. Everybody knows everybody if you know what I mean. Throughout time multiple people from all the shops have worked in one place or multiple places. Word gets around who knows what their doing or in other words how good they are and what they know by their work reputation. The older people are retiring and not much of the younger people have been coming in the door. They just ain’t interested in that type of work any more. It’s been that way for about 10 years now. And really bad the last 4-5 years. There just ain’t many skilled workers left.
So when this stuff goes on the other shops out there are ready to grab the skilled workers. Heck my old place has been having job fairs and such for the last two years trying to find people to do the work we have. Nobody knows those machines.
And the problem with this new owner is they have some machines like we have. But they are not involved with them as much as we are or the company’s are around here. They have mostly cnc’s and screwmachines at their shop that’s out of state. Those machines are a different skill level than our machines plus there cost of living is lower than ours. So they all have lower pay scales than we do. So that’s why the pay cuts came about this week. Plus took 40 hrs vacation from us each which they already did that a month or so ago. So everybody already started talking if pay got cut they were hopping off the boat and finding a new place. So that’s how that’s all going.
But yes the 74’s are a blast wack’n the feral cans. The daughter’s luv’em. They already made claims on which gun is theirs. The oldest daughter took a orange paint marker and colored the sliding cover for the bb resivoir. I guess that means now if I want to join in when their both shooting I’ll have to get out the good ole reliable 1077 with the Bugbuster scope. And just because I’ll have a scope and shooting pellets don’t mean I got the advantage. They are both doing real well shooting standing free hand. All I know it’s nice out so far today and those feral cans better beware. 🙂
Gunfun1
Glad you like the 74! I’ve had lots of fun with mine. I have 2, one to shoot and one still in the box as a spare. I made a wooden bushing to keep the inner barrel centered whilr letting it move back and forth. It helped accuracy.
Fido3030
Fido3030
I was wondering when you was going to comment about me getting the 74. After all you was the one who turned me onto the 74. I never knew it existed basically because I just really never did bb’s. And I thank you for telling me about it. 🙂
And I do remember you telling me about that bushing you made. But I have to tell ya. I like the 74 just as it comes out of the box. It shoots great for me and the daughter’s can plinking. They target shoot too. So they know what bench resting and accurate is all about also. But the 74 for some action shooting can’t be beat. Especially for the cost of steel bb’s. We just got 4 things of the Daisy zinc coated bb’s with 4000 in each. And what’s nice is Pyramyd AIR offers the buy 3 get one free with the bb’s also. I thought that was just for tins of pellets.
Oh and we kind of made a designated bb shooting area. And I know people are saying , but Gunfun1 you said you don’t like steel bb’s laying around the yard. Well I found a way to clean them up. And they are actually easier than shoveling lead pellets and fragments off the ground from when I shoot at my steel spinners with pellets. I took a old electric drill apart I had and took the 2 magnet halves and tied a string around each. Just go up and down placing the magnet on the ground around the bb shooting area. I got one string in each hand. Picks em up like crazy.
But yes. Very happy with the 74’s
Gunfun1
I’ve been so busy i haven’t been able to check the blog for a while. Glad it’s working. Somewhere i’ve got my notes about which BB’s most accurate, but hey, like u said, it’s a fun gun the way it is.
Fido3030
Fido3030
I know what you mean about being busy. No problem there.
But Redrafted asked above about the bushing you made for yours. Maybe give a reply to him. I mentioned for him to shoot you a reply too. I’d be interested in hearing more about what you all have done to your bb guns to improve them. More info the better is what I always say. 🙂
Gunfun1
It’s been a while, but i think i took a dowel rod slightly larger than the inside diameter of the outer tube and drilled a hole through the center slightly larger than the inner barrel. Then i turned the od of the dowel to be a press fit in the outer tube, making sure the inner barrel could move freely back and forth.
At 5 meters Daisy Precision averaged .763; Daisy Avanti .900, and Hornady Black Diamondqq .941 inches
Ctc. Fido3030
Fido3030
Thanks.
Fido3030
Hi – I would be interested in the particulars of the barrel bushing you made for for the 74. As you have probably read here I have been doing a few mods to my 74.
I recently twigged on the fact there are no shims anywhere in the shroud and think the barrel needs to be stabilized for better accuracy. Any info you could throw my way would be appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
Redrafter,
Here’s what i sent to Gunfun1:
It’s been a while, but i think i took a dowel rod slightly larger than the inside diameter of the outer tube and drilled a hole through the center slightly larger than the inner barrel. Then i turned the od of the dowel to be a press fit in the outer tube, making sure the inner barrel could move freely back and forth.
At 5 meters Daisy Precision averaged .763; Daisy Avanti .900, and Hornady Black Diamondqq .941 inches.
Please share your results. If you want an accurate BB repeater try a Daisy 840 Grizley or a 760 with lightly oiled BB’s. (i like Pellgun oil; Chris USA prefers 3 in 1. )
But the 74 is a great plinker. I wonder why they’re not sold in the chain stores like the Red R and Buck. Cordially,
Fido3030
Fido3030
Thanks – how far down the shroud did you place the wood bushing? I would be thinking about halfway would be best.
Cheers Dave
Dave
I put it near the muzzle. You could have more as long as the barrel could move freely and not increase trigger pull.
Fido3030
Fido3030
OK – thanks. I did basically the same thing but used shrink tubing instead of wood. I guess I’m on my own to design a bushing half way along the barrel to cut down the harmonics.
Thanks
Dave
Dave
You could probably just shove rhe wooden bushing down the shroud with a piece of tubing. If it’s tight with the shroud it will stay. Might make provisions for pulling it out if u ever want to. I doubt if a center bushing will help a lot though. The trigger pull will limit what u can do. Good luck.
Fido3030
GF1,
I was going to recommend that you get a Steel Force or a M712 to show up the girls, however they are both made by Umarex and after the way they and Rossi treated Rick Eustler I will not have anything to do with their products. Umarex can take the Rossi Morrealle Show and put it where the sun does not shine.
You are indeed quite fortunate that not only do you have employment alternatives available to you, but they value your skills. I have been practicing for my next job.
“Welcome to Walmart, what the &*$%# do you want?”
RR
We had a Steel Force some years back. I loved it. But as it goes it was a bb gun. And you know how my mind set has been on bb guns till recently. Plus it’s actually kind of loud. But does sound cool when you pop off those 6 round bursts one after another.
I’m thinking about getting one and using this with a bulk fill co2 tank converted to HPA. Here’s a link to the adapter from PA. I’ll probably use the 20 oz tank.
/product/air-venturi-steel-storm-co2-bulk-fill-adapter?a=3442
And yep I know this corporate bull has always killed me. What always gets me is if us skilled workers ain’t out there making parts and making the shop work they ain’t got a job. Don’t get me wrong. Engineers are important as well. But it’s up above that is where some schooling is needed. You don’t starve the one that helps you grow. The people would be happy to do their jobs. And they are for the most part. But it always seems that management wants more and keeps taking away. I don’t think that’s a very healthy relationship.
Anyway. If you get a job at Walmart I hope you at least get to work in sporting goods. But if your like me I would have to tell the truth about some of the airguns they carry and I would be fired by lunchtime. But yep it’s a shame the way that some of the company’s try to do biusness anymore. As it goes. What comes around goes around simply said.
GF1,
I would call up P.A., ask them to send me a bunch of catalogs and hand them out. I would be fired by first break. ;(
Chris U
With you there.
🙂
RR
Meant a Steel Storm.
Dave— Are you using Avanti ground shot in this gun? I hope that you will compare it,s accuracy to your Gletcher 1944. Ed
Zimbabwee
Hi Ed
I’ m doing the initial break in with Umarex BB’s. Never thought they were much good, about the same quality as Copperheads and I have a few bottles that I just use for the new guns. They vary so much in size I don’t even bother to mike each bottle anymore. Can’t recall where they came from, they were free along with about 20,000 Copperheads I got at the same time.
After I get about 500 shots through the gun I’ll switch to Daisy Premiums. I will try Avanti Ground Shot out of curiosity, but no matter how they shoot they won’t be used very much in this gun. Too expensive! I’ll even try the Copperheads but not hold my breath!!
As far as accuracy compared to the M1944 there is no comparison. The Daisy has too many flyers and is not a consistent shooter like the M1944. It’ s like comparing a Lincoln to a Vespa. They both get you there but the Lincoln just does it better.
I remember now, all those BB’s came from a local Sally Ann Goodwill Store. I was looking around and asked the lady about them and she said they were mine for free if I wanted them. They needed the space. I said O.K.
Cheers
Dave
45 Bravo— I have a friend who lived in New York City. He had 2 SKS rifles. One had a bayonet and the other had a bipod welded on instead of the bayonet. He claimed that it had Chinese police markings. Naturally, he had them registered. The police told him to dispose of the SKS that had a bayonet, but he could keep the other one because it was not an “assult ” rifle. He moved to Florida, along with both rifles. Ed
Dave– I have 11 blackpowder firearms. Have you ever cleaned a black powder firearm? You need lots and lots of hot soapy water to get them clean. Get a small flashlight (electric torch) and take it to the next gunshow . Examine the bore of used blackpowder arms and you will find lots of rusty guns. Most gun owners do not really clean their blackpowder firearms properly. ED
Ed
That is very interesting. If I ever get to a gun show I might do that even though it might upset a few people!
BTW – Here in Southern Alberta a flashlight is still just a flashlight.
Cheers
Dave
We just got back to the hotel from Texas Airgun Show. We had a blast. Had fun talking to all of the American Airgunner folks.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I’m sorry to hear I missed the chance to meet you. I was there all day. Had a lot of fun — especially watching all the Amer Airgunner filming stuff.
Safe travels home.
Jim M.
Jim,
I watched the filming on Range C of the air bolt demo, round table, etc. The air bolt is impressive. So was the young man who made his rifle from scratch.
I was the old fat guy wearing the yellow shirt.
Jim
Jim Q.,
We must have been standing right by each other. I watched the air bolt segment too. I saw that young guy, but got caught up in a conversation with someone and didn’t hear his segment. I was the tall guy — 6’5″ — in the striped golf-type shirt and jeans.
Jim M.
Dave— I put the electric torch in to try and get the attention of Sir Nigel and other bloggers who live in the UK. It has been a while since we have heard from them, and I miss their blogs. Ed
B.B.,
I had a great time at the TX Airgun Show today. Got there just before 9:00am and didn’t leave until it shut down at 4:00pm. I was only in the door about 2 minutes when I realized I was right next to Tom Gaylord. Funny how you never see him in the same place as you, B.B. Had a great time meeting and talking with Tom, and he was very helpful in some airgun dealings I was considering. I got to meet Rossi Morealle, Jim Chapman, and many others. It was a lot of fun seeing the American Airgunner crew film segments for some of their upcoming episodes.
Sorry to see Jim Q’s note above about being there, and just now learning I missed out on connecting with another blog reader.
Jim M.
Jim,
Thanks for introducing yourself. A lot of blog readers did that this time. I bet I met 30-40 people who read this blog at the show.
Man, was I tired at the end of the show! It wore me out.
B.B.
B.B.,
I bet you were tired. That was a busy day for you, with all the work on the Amer. Airgunner segments, and manning your table. That was the first of these I have attended, but it seemed to me like there was a good turnout.
Jim M.
Jim,
I slept in till 6 this morning. That was a pleasure.
B.B.
Gunfun1 et all..
Well, this evening saw the Daisy 74 shooting off a bipod and as the preliminary test this morning showed no promise so did this evenings test. The gun shot a group size in excess of 3 1\2 inches. As a bipod shooter it failed miserably. With the bipod on an arborite tabletop it seemed the gun almost jumped into the air with each shot. The vibration was that bad!
As usual, thinking I could get better results, I fired groups with the bipod resting on a folded up bath towel and then on some blocks of closed cell foam. Results about the same.
Thinking it might be the barrel mount bipod I tried shooting by resting the fore grip on a sandbag with about the same results. It did, however , seem to like an artillery hold with my arm supported on sandbags which would be almost the same as normal shooting standing offhand.
It looks like I will be using the gun as an off hand plinker, same as you.
The mods are finished now. Maybe install sling swivels next week and one of those ridiculous short bipods that are only good for keeping the gun out of the mud. If a rainy day happens along I might even finish fitting the butt extension.
All for now.
Cheers
Dave
Dave
I’m thinking the gun is kind of light for the bi-pod. Maybe give it another try with your off hand holding the gun down. That will at least stabilize it better I think.
GF1,
Experiment for the day,… a “take off” of your 3 set screw, shroud stabilization idea. I looked for a “shim” to place between the band and shroud that would be the correct thickness. Turns out that a 12″ zip-tie was perfect. .052″ thick. I wrapped it around the barrel, marked it, cut it and it pressed in super nice. 0 movement. It will not come out unless I remove it.
I am not holding my breath at all for any good results, but you never know till ya try. 🙂
Gotta go. Getting hot and humid already.
Chris U
I just left a reply up above where we are talking about your trigger if you missed my comment about the barrel band.
Good let me know how it goes. And I’m going out to shoot in a few minutes. I’m kind of bum’n. I knocked one of my Daisy 74’s off a chair last night down on the hard tile floor. I picked it up and looked at it and everything seems ok. Everything feels tight still.
So basically a unexpected durability test. I’m going to shoot it and see if it still hits good. Man I hate when that happens. One of my pcp guns with a scope fell over once. And it still shot the same. The 74 is light and only has open sights on it. So hopefully it didn’t take to much of a tumble. But thinking about back as a kid. We would accidentally drop our pellets guns and pick them right back up and start shooting no problem. We’ll see.
Quick update.
The Daisy 74 I dropped still shoot’s good. Happy about that. And of course I had to put a few 300 or so shots though it to make sure.
🙂
GF1,
Zip tie in barrel band is looking real promising. Insane sub groups,…. but you know what I said that my feelings were on sub groups (now)….. I have 1 more 8 shot group to do and will compare to yesterdays targets and report back in a bit.
Glad the 74 is still good. Tuff little critter she be,….. 🙂 300 huh?,….. so it was just a “small” test ehh? 😉
Chris U
Yep just a small test. 🙂 I had to empty the whole 12 gram cartridge up ya know. Don’t like leaving that seal compressed.
And sounds like good news on your Mrod. Will be waiting for the results.
GF1,
Set up at 70, 33.95’s. I dispersed 3 ears of shelled corn from the 100 to the 40.
Sit down to shoot. Squirrels are zig-zagging in and out of the shooting lane. Birds too.
I shot 6 eight shot groups. Between group 5 and 6, I come back out of the house and sit down and look out. At the 70,…. there is several “somethings” moving, but not sure what. I get down on the scope and there is 6 big ol’ Turkeys at the 70 and working their way out to the 100. Nice and easy,… picking at the corn. They left a whole bunch too,.. which I saw when I retrieved the targets.
As for groups,… or shall I say sub-groups,…..
15/16″ for 5 shots
1″ for 6 shots
1 3/16″ for 5, 5, 6 and 7 shots.
Overall group sizes were smaller than yesterday, fliers included. So yea, it looks promising. The “mod” is staying for now. No adjustment on trigger.
You have asked me to try a lot of things, and I have. (I am asking you to try this one). A 6″ zip-tie was .049″ and the 12″ was .052″. The 6″ left some play. After I installed the “band” in the ring, I loosened the ring to allow it to “relax” and the barrel to “self center”. You know that shroud was not (perfectly) centered in the ring.
Watcha’ say?
Chris U
Sounds like tightening up the slop on the shroud is working for you.
And already did try it on my .25 Mrod. I did it a little different though. I used one of those white o-rings that are harder than the black ones. I took the black thin o-ring out that came in the barrel band. Then put the white one in the groove in the band. Then slipped it back over the shroud and on the front resivoir place and locked it back up centered.
My gun produced same results with shroud locked up as the shroud floating. I take a a old t-shirt and wrap it around the shroud several times then put some pliers I have that have rubber pads on the gripping surface. I tighten the shroud tube as tight as I can. I gave this .25 Mrod I have now 1-1/2 turns past tight. In other words tighten by hand as tight as I can with the shroud locked solid. Then I put it to it with the 1-1/2 turns past tight.
My shroud doesnt move. It only follows the movement of the gun recoil. So maybe that’s why you been having problems. Maybe you didn’t have your shroud tube tight enough this whole time.
GF1,
Interesting. My barrel band has no place for an O-ring. 1 1/2″ turns huh? I would not think that the threads could handle that kind of over-torque.
Chris U
That’s actually not very much movement in towards the breech block that the shroud moved. That is very fine threads. Not sure on what pitch thread they used. But I bet 1-1/2 turns only equals a little over a 1/32 of a inch movement in. I bet I could easily went 2 turns tight. But that could be getting close to stripping the threads on the piece the shroud screws onto back there. I think it’s possibly made out of Derlin. So I just went the 1-1/2 turns. And it is very secure at that amount of turns.
Either way I guess the main thing is the shroud don’t move what ever way it wants with what you have or with what I have. But I do bet that’s why your gun has been trying to do what it wants. Not what you want. I think your about to start seeing some group improvement for sure. 🙂
GF1,
I was mistaken. I looked up the exploded view and sure enough, there is an O-ring in the barrel band. So, I pulled mine. It is in there. It comes NO WHERE close to fitting the shroud though. In fact, it serves NO purpose.
I may explore a larger O-ring for the barrel band. The zip-tie ring has 0 play.
Yea, things are looking better. I may give that shroud tighten bit thing a go too.
Thanks,….. Chris
Chris U
No the factory o-ring in the barrel band does not contact the shroud tube.
Remember how I said I just dropped the 74 and was worried it knocked the barrel or something around. Well that’s exactly what that barrel band and o-ring is about on the Mrods.
That barrel band is there as a barrel protector to help incase of a hard knock or drop of the gun.
When I had my old .25 caliber gen1 Mrod that had the double air resivoir on it that Lloyd Sikes made for me. I didn’t even have a barrel band on it to protect the shroud and barrel. The barrel and shroud was what they call free floating. Look at the BSA and Gamo Coyote pcp rifles. They don’t use a shroud or a band to protect the barrel. It comes straight out of the breech block. That is truly what they call a free floating barrel.
Anyway now let’s see what your gun will do. Hmm. Maybe those Barracudas might just end up working in your gun after all. 😉
GF1,
Interesting. Looks like I am on the right track. You know, I would be interested in a barrel that had no shroud, could take an air stripper and I could put a collar on to adjust for oscillation/whip. That I would try. That I would do. That I would like. Noise not an issue.
As long as the barrel came out to where the current (shroud) is, or longer.
Hit me up at the bottom if you have thoughts. If not,…. later,… and thanks again.
Chris U
No problem. And replied below.
Gunfun1
I did try shooting that way. That’s a hold I sometimes use when the scope is too high, placing the left hand over the stock behind the grip for a higher cheek weld. You can put a fair amount of down force on the gun this way. But in this case no happiness at all.
I think without the barrel stabilized inside the shroud the barrel harmonics cause to much inaccuracy when the gun is hard grounded through a bipod.
One thing I had forgotten about the Tact Edge Red Dot Scope is how bad the parallax is. No wonder I wasn’t using it any more and it was available to put on the 74. Shooting with the overhand grip made me realize how badly that was affecting my shooting. I now think I’ll have to install a comb or riser on the stock and once I can achieve a proper cheek weld maybe the accuracy will improve!!!
This is turning into an ongoing project. I love it!!
Cheers
Dave
Dave
That’s like that Tasco red dot I have on my Tx 200 right now. If someone else tryed to shoot it they would be very lucky if they hit anything. It’s very important with that red dot to get hold and eye placement the same every shot.
And I will say my eyes ain’t nowhere as good as they were when I was younger. Use to love shooting open sights. And have revisited them here the last month or so. Maybe about 2-1/2 month’s now. Been shooting the Brodax before it broke then the Python and now the 74’s open sight. I’m actually having pretty good results now. I focus on the front post and keep it centered on the target. I try to keep my hold the same as well as eye placement or cheek weld on the comb of the stock. I have been having pretty good results lately.
I now wish one of my pcp’s that are real accurate shooters with scopes had some kind of front and rear open sights. I’m curious to see how good of groups I could shoot open sights with known accurate guns.
I’d like to get me another 1720T with a 1399 stock on it again. But this time around no scope. Attach a front post and add a open sight on the rear dovetail on the breech. And not really a peep rear sight. I would like to have a true open rear notch sight to use with the added front post sight. That would be a good test for me I believe. Maybe might get a surprising result.
Gunfun1
FWIW I’ve been taking off steel breeches on some of my 2240/1377’s and putting on original plastic breeches with the peep/notch sight. They shoot very well and are lighter.not quite as accurate as a scope of course. Fido3030
Fido3030
You know what I could put the plastic breech back on my 1377 /Discovery conversion.
Leave the Disco .177 barrel on with the plastic breech. Leave it positioned for the notch sight. Not the peep sight. I would have to put the front pump linkage barrel support back on and take off the 760 front pump linkage so I would have the 1377 front post sight.
That would be a excellent test. I already know how well it shoots with a scope. And I do remember you mentioning that.
Gunfun1
Good luck! Please let us know how it works.
Fido3030
Fido3030
Im going to try it today.
I don’t start working at the new place till tomorrow. So one more day left to play before I get back to it.
So yep will give a update.
GF1,
I picked up a Maximus last week and it comes with iron sights. That might be a rifle you want to try, think it has all kinds of potential.
Like the rifle – nice and light – the finish is ok… a bit rough (as expected for that price-point). It shoulders and points well and think it will be a great plinker. I put a 4×32 Ruger scope on it for the moment but think it really needs a small 3-9×40 AO scope.
Only concern is the trigger – it is HEAVY. Have under 100 rounds through the Maximus and the trigger is settling in but I am going to research how to lighten it up. I expect that it won’t be too long before mods start showing up on the forums.
Wish that the Maximus was available when I was a kid – my Crosman 101 took 8-pumps per shot and you had to pump for each shot. I always dreamed to have a rifle where you could pump it a bunch the have several shots before having to pump again.
Hank
Hank
I had a .177 and .22 caliber Discovery in the past. Pretty much the same gun except for the Maximus has a longer barrel and the synthetic stock.
The Discovery’s were nice easy to use and shoot guns. And accurate. But you know what I put a scope on both of them. Well my old reliable Tasco red dot too.
But don’t have them no more. So the 1377 I have the Discovery barrel on right now would be the easiest and cheapest way to go. I mostly use that gun for up close bird pests anyway. So it would benefit from the open sight like Fido3030 mentioned. Plus that would keep the gun lighter than with the scope I have on it now.
But basically a experiment more on my part than the gun. I know how it shoots with the scope. I want to know how I shoot and I want to emphasize. How I shoot with the open sights. I use to strictly shoot open sights when I was a kid. Shot some scopes in my late teens. So I’m just trying to get back to how I use to shoot for the most part. Like I said. This experiment is about me this time. Not the gun for a change. 🙂
Give the old thing a break, I’m only 50 and getting out of bed is beginning to sound like distant musketry.
This reminds me of the British Gat long gun in as much as you have to press the barrel, with some difficulty, against something, is made very cheaply, can’t hit much….but sort of “does what it says on the tin” even if that does tend to be a bit disappointing.
Chris U
You could take the shroud, barrel band, and the peice off the front of the actual barrel. Then find a long aftermarket air stripper and put it on as weight.
I think that would be a great set up on your Mrod. Especially since you do kind of got that black bad gun tactical look going on. I thought of going that route myself. Noise is not a concern for me either right now here where I’m at. But I do like the quiet. It’s now more so I don’t disturb the wildlife. We have deer feeding in the yard all the time now. So that’s why I been hesitant to go loud on my guns.
But yes I think it would work. And maybe the weight on the end of the barrel might not be needed. It might actually hurt performance with that set up. Maybe a aluminum air stripper would be in order.
But I would still see what your gun will do as you have it now. It might just get in the groove and settle down. Locking up the barrel just might be the trick for your gun.
GF1,
Does a 26 1/2″ (drop in) barrel even exist for a Gen. 2 M-rod? Stripper ready or not? Surely,… I am not the first crazy nut to “cook” this idea up. ( 26 1/2″ is the overall length from breech to muzzle end now).
Chris U
I haven’t searched lately. But I do believe that someone makes a aftermarket drop in barrel that is longer for the Mrod. I think RidgeRunner even mentioned a .30 or 35 caliber for them now.
If so I have seriously been thinking about getting me another Mrod and going to the bigger caliber with it. But my .25 Mrod ain’t going anywhere. It is one of those shooters that ain’t going nowhere. I said that twice didn’t I. 😉
GF1,
Thanks. Keep your ear to the ground. If I could do a drop in .25 with stripper for 200 or under,… I would be all over it. I did check the Lothar Walther site, nothing jumped right out. I will check some too.
Chris U
Why don’t stay with the barrel you have and just have a peice of aluminum say 1″ diameter by 6″ long made with a 3/4″ diameter hole drilled about 4″ deep. Then drill a hole in it that is a slip fit to the outside diameter of the .25 Mrod barrel. Have a setscrew in it to attach it to your barrel.
It sounds like all you want to do is have the barrel end out past the fill fitting and dress the end of the barrel up. I made one for one of my FWB 300’s I had. Painted black. Buldawg has it now.
If you want a machine shop to make it don’t mention air gun. That will set out a red flag. They will think wrong thoughts about how you want to use it. And in reality you could make that yourself if you really want it. You know what I mean. It’s not a silencer by no means. If anything it’s going to make the gun louder when you put it on the exsposed barrel.
Let me know what you think.
GF1,
That is an option. Machine shop options are limited, if you remember. I will proceed with what I have for now and look for other options. And you are right, it would be louder,…. so no silencing going on for sure.
I will switch back to the 25.39’s next time out to see if the shroud stabilization helps out on them or not. I know you do not like that,…. but since they are all JSB’s,…. it will not be as bad as switching brand/lead mixes.
Chris U
I know it will be loud with just the barrel and no shroud.
But it will probably be even louder if you put that aluminum peice that I talked about you making. Look at trumpets or saxophones and such. That aluminum peice will probably amplify the sound of the report. That’s what I mean.
And yep on the lighter JSB’s.
BB
Wonder if you could mail a note to Reb via Pyramyd AIR forwarding. Just to let him know we miss his posts and hope he’s ok.
Fido3030
Fido3030,
I’m looking into it.
B.B.
BB,
Magandang Umaga at Maligayang Kaarawan si iyo Tom! (Good Morning and Happy Birthday to you Tom!)
PS Sleeping in?
Siraniko,
I was! Thanks.
Naturally the blog picked today to not post as scheduled.
B.B.
BB
Many happy returns Sir! Waiting for your post today.
Errol
Errol,
I would give him a break as that the Texas Airgun Show was a success from the sound of it. Probably very tired from the effort over the weekend.
Siraniko
Yeah I should have thought about that. Quite frankly I forgot. Thanks.
Errol