B.B.’s observations of Volvo’s first PCP

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: Pyramyd Air’s tech support department will be closed until Monday, Oct. 27, when they’ll return from the International Airgun Expo in Roanoke, Virginia.

Now, let’s get to today’s blog.

Volvo’s experiences with his new Webley Raider are useful for everyone who’s contemplating getting a precharged airgun. There are things you don’t yet know and other things you’re not even aware of. Now that Volvo has given us his experiences, I would like to reflect on them.

How will you fill it?
First, the problem of compatibility between your intended source of air and the gun you get. I don’t care whether it’s a brand-new gun or a used one. I don’t care whether you get it from a dealer or from the last owner. There’s always a great chance for a screwup–leaving you with a gun that can’t be filled.

When I worked on developing the Benjamin Discovery with Crosman, I was adamant that the pump be included with the gun. At least until I realized that if a guy ever bought a second gun there was no reason he would also want to buy a second pump, too. We had to give him the option of not buying the pump.

And that was when Pandora opened the box! Because some brand-new buyers, not wanting to wait for the Benjamin pumps to be in stock when the Discovery was new, bought their guns without pumps. And then the forums lit up with distress calls–”What do I do?”

You’d think that anyone who buys a precharged pneumatic air rifle without a means of filling it would have worked out the solution beforehand. At least that’s how the conversation goes in the conference room when everyone is sitting around trying to make a decision.

However, on the buyer’s side of the fence, you’d think a gun manufacturer wouldn’t sell a gun without a means to fill it. That seems reasonable, too.

So, who’s right? The answer? It’s the dealer’s responsibility to question the buyer to ensure he’ll be able to fill his gun the moment he unpacks it. But there’s a problem with that. Some buyers dislike being questioned about things they think are trivial, and they fail to grasp the gravity of the topic until they come face-to-face with it. I call it the landmine syndrome.

Learning how to disarm a landmine in the classroom is boring. BUT, put someone in the middle of an open demolitions pit with a real mine and an instructor offering words of encouragement from a distant bunker over a loudspeaker, and the subject suddenly snaps into sharp focus. I’ve been there and got the t-shirt.

You don’t appreciate the problems of filling a PCP until it’s YOUR PCP that arrives on a Friday before a long weekend.

So, here’s what we’re going to do. Whenever YOU buy a PCP, you are going to ask the seller to guarantee that you can fill the thing the moment it comes out of the package. You want their assurances, on the promise of severe penalty, that YOUR PCP will be able to be filled by YOU. Do that, and I will be happy.

PCPs are noisy
Next, precharged airguns are loud. Well, EXCUSE ME! So are firecrackers! Do you know that someone actually RETURNED an AirForce Condor because it was too loud?

HELLO! Hot coffee is HOT. You shouldn’t pick up a running lawnmower by the deck. And, it’s not a good idea to skydive in a straightjacket.

Do you know why I don’t do sound testing over the internet? Because an atomic bomb sounds no louder than a car backfiring over your cheap computer speakers. However, if you’re ever able to witness an actual atomic bomb detonating, I have a sneaking suspicion it really is louder.

Angelina Jolie shoots two Desert Eagle pistols in all her Lara Croft movies. I wonder what she would think about shooting just ONE SHOT from a real Desert Eagle .50 AE?

I cannot make my analogies any stronger. Print is limited that way. Which is why we take our soldiers into the gas chamber periodically–so they can experience it for real.

Precharged airguns are loud. No, they absolutely are not as loud as a .22 long rifle, but your ears usually can’t tell the difference.

Oh, yeah, I forgot one. Never drive a golf ball in a tile bathroom. I saw something very similar on TV just last week.

Suddenly, you’re a good shot!
Precharged airguns are usually very accurate. Phenomenally accurate to those of you who have convinced yourselves that a $150 breakbarrel is a good thing. And PCPs don’t require any special technique. Springers do, though to listen to people talk you wouldn’t think so. You can sit down and shoot amazing groups with most PCPs.

Filling a PCP from a hand pump isn’t difficult, but it is labor. Everyone feels differently about labor. Up to 2,000 psi, just about any healthy adult can pump a pump. I can do it sitting down and using one hand, though the last few hundred psi are a strain. After 2,000, pumping starts getting stiffer, and after 2,500 it gets real stiff. That’s when the effort starts annoying some people. Smaller adults (under 140 lbs.) will have difficulty pumping past 2500 psi.

Please don’t take these comments as criticism of anything Volvo said. What I’m doing is reinforcing his remarks, because they’re on the money. Everyone who goes to a PCP has these experiences, and they usually line up just like his did. The one thing that may not be universal is the noise comment, because firearm shooters will have an entirely different perspective than spring gunners. They will be happy they don’t have to wear hearing protection to shoot these guns…at least not outdoors.

I avoided the world of precharged guns for 15 years; but when I realized they were the coming trend, I decided to get my feet wet. I never looked back.

75 Responses to “B.B.’s observations of Volvo’s first PCP”

  • Vince Says:

    Hmmmm… noise….

    Out of an old Springfield single-shot .22, a CB round was quieter than my B22. A .22 short was significantly louder, and a LR would eventually, of course, bring in the cops. This sorta nixes the PCP for me… in rural NJ I’m technically not allowed to shoot a BB gun indoors, but the local cops don’t care about airguns outside as long as neighbors don’t complain. Sounds like a PCP risks being unshootable where I live.

  • twotalon Says:

    B.B.
    I can relate to the filling issue.
    I got my Talon without the scuba clamp, not knowing that the fill adapter was not included with the rifle. I sat there a week with a rifle and a pump.

    I don’t mind pumping the tanks up now….it’s just a top off once in a while.
    The hard part is when you are tuning or testing pellets. Many pumping sessions required then.

    One thing for sure….you would not want to be a skinny 14 yr old and try to pump a AF tank.

    At least I expected the Talon to be very loud from what I read. Those folks did not exaggerate !!!

    twotalon

  • woguph Says:

    When I decided I wanted to get a PCP, I first saved up money to buy a 88 cubic foot carbon fiber tank. Once I had bought that and found a place to fill it I then started saving up for the rifle.

    One thing I think is often overlooked when buying a first PCP is that most PCP’s are just too powerful for most backyards. Most new PCP shooters will be bringing home a gun twice the power of their springers. It is something to consider. Another thing I overlooked is that a PCP just isn’t much fun if you can’t shoot it at long ranges. I quickly got tired of how easy it was to punch the center out of target after target with my PCP at 30 yards. I went back to the challenge of my springers pretty quickly. I only bring out the PCP when I have a place to shoot where I have an extended range.

    David Enoch

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi,B.B.,Great story on the pros and cons of the PCP”s.I’m with Vince on this one. I also live in “Joisey” and if you have a pest problem and tree hugging neighbors the last thing you want is a noisey gun.Even my Benji 392 was kind of loud in the early morning, so I bought a TX 200 MK 111 in .22 cal. and it”s perfect in every way.Yes,it takes some talent to shoot well, but is”nt what this sport is all about.Instant gratification in this world seems to be the norm.Keep up the good work.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B. Is it “normal” for a PCP rifle to lose pressure over time, when not in use? Also, is it better to use a PCP gun often to keep seals in better condition?
    Thanks.

  • kevin Says:

    David Enoch,

    Really appreciate that insight. Most of my life was spent shooting firearms and relatively recently have become obsessed with shooting springers. In the past, with some exceptions, once I “outfitted” a firearm with all the necessities to become a good shooter and then understood what it took to shoot it accurately I rarely picked it back up. I knew it could shoot well. In the springer world, I’m having a lot of fun understanding the sighting options for certain guns, the way each individual gun likes to be held, the correct pellet, etc. etc. A pcp’s accuracy at distance is a fun dimension but I can sure relate to your short distance experience with pcp’s. Thanks. Another consideration before I step into the pcp world.

    kevin

  • Il Bruce Says:

    The Discovery did its magic on me. The shoot it out of the box capability, as well as the price point sealed it.

    I had been reading about PCPs in the British mags for a while and all the fill options just sort of made my head hurt. I still get a little glassy eyed trying to read about all the permutations of filling fitments. I can’t understand why there is no industry standard. Then again it took about 100 years for bikes to settle on just two tyre valve types (in this part of the world at least).

    Now I have a PCP I like but am still intimidated by getting another because of dissimilar fittings. I don’t want to have a box full of fittings to cart around to shoot. Nor do I want to cart around a box of fitting to find that the one I need is at home. I have heard too many stories of such things happening.

    Is there a good reason for each of the types of fittings or is it just that various manufacturers have certain preferences? Do they want exclusivity and are purposefully thwarting interchangeability?

    If I were to buy another gun I would want to buy and easy adapter for my Discovery pump but I have not been able to find any easy answers. I do not have the patience or interest in sorting out HP fittings. I would love an easy reference.

  • Lloyd Says:

    B.B. or anyone,
    Pressure lose–
    Regarding the comment by anonymous about PCPs slowly loosing their pressure during storage, I’m curious about that too.

    I imagine some guns hold their pressure almost forever and others go flat in a couple of days.

    Would you PCP owners let us know your experiences?

    Thanks,
    Lloyd

  • Dr. G. Says:

    Frank B.,

    The TalonTunes moderator is mailed about 2 weeks after Tony receives your check. No need to send your rifle.

    By the way, because you will be sliding the barrel through a very close-fitting, unseen washer in the middle of the moderator, it may take a several minutes until you find just the right angle to get it through – but eventually, it will fit without forcing anything. I mention this because otherwise you might start swearing that he mis-aligned or mis-measured something, which is what I thought with both of his moderators (both fit perfectly after several minutes).

    – Dr. G.

  • twotalon Says:

    Lloyd…
    I have 4 AF tanks and can leave them sit for months without losing air.
    twotalon

  • wayne Says:

    Warning,

    If you have a spring gun that shoots over 1000fps, and you like it now, don’t buy a PCP, you will be selling the springer or not using it except for fire arm practice, so you don’t forget what recoil feels like.. At least that is what happened to me, and I had a lot of heavy recoil springers when I started off with the Discovery and scuba tank. I went with the scuba tank, because I wanted it “Now” and one without pump was available and not with pump.

    For the rifle range, the scuba tanks are a must. I now have 7 tanks and 4 are 3,600 lb pressure. I have different adapters on each tank, for the 5 different PCPs I have so far. For me the Discovery runs on free air, because it uses a 2,000 lb fill instead of 3,000 for most of the others, so I just move the scuba yoke when the tank gets too low for a 2,800 lb fill.

    I got the s310 without any way to fill it, because I assumed the fill probe came with it used, (bad assumption). I waited a week to get it, and another scuba yoke.

    One can get fittings to make them all work on the same tank, and since you’ll want back up air supplies anyway, that is not a bad idea, but not one I’ve tried yet, since I’m all setup now., and moving the yoke is not hard..

    And they are not all loud, just almost all. The Talon SS or Condor, with the bloop tube are quite, the FX Wisper, which I haven’t tried yet, and my trusty Air Arms S410 in .177…

    If I could just buy one, and I didn’t have a $1,000 for an FX or Air Arms S410, then the Talon SS with bloop tube, would be my first choice.

    It seems like the bloop tube could be adapted to some of the PCPs, or something like it could be made as a universal type. And like Matt61 said, you can make a cardboard box, to shoot through, as a last resort.. So don’t let noise stop you, go for a PCP!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • wayne Says:

    Pressure Loss,

    No, It shouldn't loose pressure. I can leave my Air Arms S410 with a 205 bar fill, for a week, (I've never gone more than a week without shooting it), and it looks like it has not changed on the gauge.

    Wayne,
    AARR&R

  • Mr B. Says:

    il bruce: Airhog.com can make a fitting to connect any HPA source to any gun. My Talon SS was ordered from them with the proper adapter to hook it up to my Disco pump from day one. The SS is quiet as purchased, but with an aftermarket Moderator it is QUIET. I don’t think a PCP will ever leak air or CO2 unless there is something wrong with its seals. For a reference point concerning power my Disco and Diana 350 Magnum both shoot a CP 2/3rds of the way through a 2×4, while the Talon SS will put a Meisterkugeln clean through the same board. A real consideration for a safe back stop when shooting the PCP’s. However, with the SS you can control that with the power wheel. Mr B.

  • woguph Says:

    For those asking if a PCP should hold air long term, I believe the answer is yes. At least the two I have had experience with would hold pressure for months. I don’t shoot them often but when I get them out, they are ready to go.

    You didn’t ask but good quality C02 guns should also hold gas.

    David Enoch

  • Il Bruce Says:

    Mr. B.,

    Than you. I will consult Aig Hog prior to any future purchase.

    Br,

    Bruce

  • Yash Says:

    I was planning to start a new topic, but for now I will ask you folks here. I am planning to buy my first scope for a medium to magnum powered spring-piston air rifle. What durable scope would you suggest? As this is my first, I want nothing fancy and under $100. I will be shooting max 50 yards.

  • wayne Says:

    Yash,

    You have to check and see how long and how big around ie, 3-9×32 or 3-9×40 or 3-9x50AO, but in general, get a leapers or centerpoint and solid acushot mounts. If it will fit you can get a 3-12x40AO or 4-16x50AO.
    for under $100…. Be sure to get AO, adjustable Objective.. and you don’t need the illuminated model..

    Just my .0002 cents

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Yash Says:

    Thanks Wayne,

    I like this model from leapers but dunno if it has the AO or not?

    http://www.opticsplanet.net/leapers-5th-gen-3-9×40-full-size-range-estimating-mil-dot-scope-scp-394fmd1-c.html

    Thanks for your suggestions.

  • kevin Says:

    Yash,

    I second Waynes suggestion for your scope needs. If you’re shooting out to 50 yards make sure it has an Adjustable Objective (AO) and the leapers 5th generation scopes are rated for magnum springers and leapers are the best scope value in the marketplace in my opinion. Illumination is extra cost, extra weight and usually unecessary.

    kevin

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Yash,

    Details on the optics planet site are vague but the scope you are asking about seems to be this one on the pyramyd air site and it doesn’t have AO:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=2197

    This leapers scope does have the AO:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=659

    So does this one:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=866

    kevin

  • Lloyd Says:

    All,
    Pressure loss from a PCP–

    Thanks to all of you who answered my question about this. Sounds like if I’ve got pressure loss, there’s probably a problem.

    Thanks,
    Lloyd

  • Yash Says:

    Thanks Kevin,

    Your second suggestion doesn’t have illumination so I would go with that one. 3-9 is pretty good for my needs for now. I wish it did not have the mil-dots. Does this have glass etched reticles or wire ones?

    Thanks again for your time.

  • Anonymous Says:

    So I never dreamed I would be defending PCP’s, but here it goes.

    Noise concerns – don’t let the noise dissuade you from investing in a PCP. Multiple offerings have shrouds from the manufacture included. When shrouded, PCP’s are supposedly more quite than a high power Springer.

    Power – some rifles, such as Wayne’s S410 have external adjustments that allow you to dial from 12 – 30 ft lbs. The Raider can be adjusted up or down internally, but I like the stock 20+ ft-lbs. I have the lower power ranges more than well covered.

    Fill’er up – Based on my limited experience, they do not lose air. It is not the cheap CO2 pistol of the 1970’s. The rifle connected to some type of air source is a minor speed bump in the road. Since I bought her used at midnight on a Saturday, online…I expected to have to look for a few pieces of the puzzle.
    If PA had had the original pump I wanted in stock, I would guess the pump would of beat the rifle to my home.

    The final endorsement. Since acquiring the Webley, I have eliminated two more Springer’s, a BSA XL and the FWB 124. No, it won’ replace them all, my HW girls are just too sweet – but that makes 4 total that have gone to new homes.

    Volvo

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    “Next, precharged airguns are loud. Well, EXCUSE ME! So are firecrackers!”

    Well, I’m more confused than ever. I’m pretty happy with the noise level of .30-06′s, but I don’t shoot 20 to 200 rnds/day every day. For me, paying attention to the noise is a matter of decency, but for others (as Vince volunteered), it can be critical.

    I don’t understand what is so difficult about sound testing a range of PCP’s, especially when it is the number one question from every non-PCP owner. The sound level could be graphed and compared to other noises. Granted, this would require special equipment, but once done, it would be adequate for a while.

  • kevin Says:

    Yash,

    Good choice. I have one of these scopes. A great value for $44.10.

    Can’t tell you what type of cross hairs are on the scope. Suggest you call pyramyd air and ask them.

    Good luck.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    Noise is key for me too. So having granted that PCPs are loud, the question is how to make them quiet. It would be nice to know the quiet ones which seem to be the Air Force guns with bloop tubes, the S410 as is, and possibly the S200, and, hopefully, the next version of the Discovery. Are there others? Otherwise, it’s a matter of getting a custom silencer as I think Dr. G suggested awhile ago. Any estimates on the price? I expect it would be considerable.

    Regarding pumping, I have no problem with the effort alone, but even with the Discovery I am concerned about the disruption to shooting and to the effort in the context of shooting. It reminds me of the Biathlon event where you are supposed to cross-country ski (most strenuous of all exercises) then stop and shoot with your heart racing. I’ve never had any desire to try this sport.

    Otherwise, with its included pump, the Discovery is ideal except, as Volvo pointed out, it’s a little light. That’s great if you want to hunt but if you don’t that seems like it holds you back from accuracy you could get with field target weight guns.

    So, what happens when you drive a golf ball in a tiled bathroom? Surely you would crack a tile. Would the golf ball rebound and crack a bunch of other tiles?

    Matt61

  • kevin Says:

    Matt61,

    Want to get hit by a golf ball? Tee it up in your bathroom. Almost guaranty you’ll walk out with a goose egg somewhere on your body.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    PCP noise level is concern for all enthusiasts whether it is as loud as fire cracker or a mouse fart.

    If you use a chrony for speed test then you must use a dB meter for noice level testing.

    Ian,

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    Volvo,

    Yesterday you said, “At 150 bar, a knob is turned on the pump to keep the final strokes on par with the first.” From you report, it sounds like that knob works pretty well to keep effort down. Is that a feature specific to the 4 stage pump? Is the 4 stage pump is new (they had/have a 3 stage pump too)?

    Is there anyone out there that has more than one type of hand pump and would be willing to review and compare each type (FX, Axsor, Air Force, Hills, etc.)? I bought the Discovery pump because it is rated to 3600 psi, can be pumped continuously, comes with the Foster type quick disconnect and has BB’s nod (its the same as the Air Force pump). I would like to see a comparison though. Anyone else interested?

    Thanks,
    .22 multi-shot

  • Anonymous Says:

    BG- farmer,

    At full power the Raider is on par with I would guess at least a sub-sonic .22 rimfire in the sound department. Certainly I expected it to be loud, but I was a little surprised. Keep in mind I’m using it indoors, so this may be exaggerating it some.

    I felt obligated to share this with anyone contemplating a PCP. I think the sound issue is huge. I would guess this is 50% of why some of us use pellet guns to begin with.

    As the power declined, so did the corresponding discharge noise. So based on my usual scientific thought process, an unshroud 12 ft lb rifle will make about half the noise as one at 24 ft lbs. I will post the formula for this soon. :)

    Remember, I shot the Raider all the way down to 470 fps second, at which time it was like any Daisy or Crosman multi-pump in sound.

    I whole-heartedly agree that sound testing would be beneficial. For almost two years I solicited opinions on that topic. Once again, in stock form the FX Whisper was given top billing. Unfortunately, it is a pricey rig with a big air tube.

    Matt61,

    While I have no interest in a silencer, many environmentalists suggest a Lead Dust Collector, or LDC. I would guess they run about $60.00 plus shipping.

    Kevin,

    Just received a 2nd Leapers scope from PA yesterday. I have to say as long as the last, something this cheap should not be so good.

    .22 Multi,

    Yes, the 4 stage is brand new. I tried to pump the rifle without closing the knob on the handle after 150 bar and it was twice as much effort. First pump I used, so I can’t speak to any others.

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wayne,

    Don’t feel bad about your noisy S410. The guys on the yellow that told me the FX Whisper was quieter own both rifles. So I guess until you get one, we need to believe them.

    I use to think nothing could be better than cassettes when they replaced 8-tracks.

    Volvo

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Volvo,

    Good point on the noise being less with lower power.

    I haven’t made any bones about my ambivalence towards PCP’s. I do think I will eventually have one, but probably not the type most people lust after. The idea of hundreds of well-regulated, whisper quiet and accurate shots in the privacy of my own barn is what turns me on. If I could get a quiet one that would go a little farther, that would be cool, too, but its not my priority. I keep thinking a PCP with a target stock and two reliable, consistent power levels (10M and full-power) would suit me fine, even if I had to change barrels, etc..

  • Anonymous Says:

    wow,I just asked because I live in mid-city New Orleans.Cops here have a tense job.I know quite a few as friends.they understand my enthusiasm for airguns.but if one neighbor or passer-by calls 911,that has the potential to go from bad to worse.even shooting safely in my own house,the police who respond to the call would be doing so in the murder capitol of the country,or so it seems…all this sounds ridiculous to some,but it’s the sense I get from being “taken down”by 6 cruisers,3 National Guard units and two suits while enjoying an otherwise safe,legal,fun afternoon at Lake Ponchartrain…and both of us are over fourty! Frank B

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    What do you mean they replaced 8-track tapes…. maybe that is why the new ones are so sloppy in my player, and don’t work…

    The bottom line is, a mouse farts pretty quite, even if it’s been eating jerky and beans.. and since B.B. and I both found the Air Arms S410 .22 cal louder, or at least B.B. said the .22 cal was not as quite as a TX200 and my personal Air Arms S410 .177 cal is just as, or a little quieter than my carbine .177 Tx200, and the fact that it gets more shots, than advertised by far, and the fact that if has the power adjuster adjusting the opposite way of the other two I had before I sent them back with broken mag advances.. I THINK MINE IS SPECIAL IN SOME WAY.. and someday I might let B.B. open her up to see why, if he wants to….But that will be after I’m using the USFT to practice with.. and not before..

    I just thought of something, I think the FX wisper and Air Arms are made in the same factory, at least the parts are, I think… Maybe I got something with mixed parts, or an early version… But whatever, it would be great to copy and do it again at a lower price, if possible.

    And yes, I think it’s time we move up to a little bit higher tech than mouse farts, for testing the noise level of air rifles….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    OT
    Mom has relented.
    My oldest (7yrs) has had his Red Ryder a year now and loves it. It has really caused some sadness on the part of his brother (5), as the rule was ‘you have to be 6 to get a BB gun’.
    But this weekend we showed mom how well Callum (the little guy) behaves when he shoots his brothers Red Ryder…and she now knows I am a stickler for learning gun safety and that they are only brought out when proper supervised (meaning me).
    He doesn’t know it yet, but after supper he will be given his own Red Ryder which I just picked up at lunchtime.
    Can’t wait to see the little guys face!

    CowboyDad

  • wayne Says:

    CowboyDad,

    Me either, grab a camera and share it with us…

    please…I don’t have grandchildren yet!!

    Wayne,

  • Mr B. Says:

    CowboyDad: Nice going sir. Our shooting sports need their new recrewts and hats off to Mom! Mr B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wayne said, “The bottom line is, a mouse farts pretty quite, even if it’s been eating jerky and beans.. “

    Well, this gives a new meaning to ‘Shooting From the Hip’, doesn’t it ;-)

    Johnny,

  • Jane Hansen Says:

    I’m deciding on a PCP, (Korean job, hopefully), and noise is a factor, but does anyone put a sound-level meter to these things? The comments are rather subjective.

    Incidentally, if anyone’s interested in down-stream noise or lead splatter, I’ve been blasting into a “LE Targets” composite rubber panel now for about a year, (2′ x 2′ square, only 2″ deep), and it just sucks them up dead quiet. A close-range 22LR gets through it, (it’s taken about 1000 at 15 meters), but no pellets yet.

  • kevin Says:

    Volvo,

    I certainly agree with leapers scopes.

    Now I understand the fate of your fwb 124. You don’t waste any time if a gun doesn’t live up to your impeccable standards. Admirable. Would you mind sharing your favorite place to sell guns?

    Cowboy Dad,

    Good for you. I believe guns, given by the right person, can teach responsibility, self discipline and self confidence. I’m glad you’re the teacher.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wayne,

    I was just pulling your chain on the S410. I expected you to defend how quite it was, then I would suggest that since PCP’s do vary widely, an observation on discharge may not be so silly.
    However, the golf ball in the shower idea tempts me. I feel with my middle age cat like reflexes I could possibly escape injury.
    We need to keep in mind that broad range of consumers out there. Even Johnny that maybe should have been left behind has cash to spend.

    Once again, I will offer to spare you the shame of owning second best and take the S410 off your hands. You know my address. : )

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    PCP Lovers,I can respect your admiration for these fine rifles and there probably the way of the future.Where I live I use my springer for keeping unwanted guests out of my attic. To boot my neighbor feeds them, so it’s an ongoing battle.This state gives a hefty fine and jail time for cruelty to animals.So until they make a PCP thats as quiet as my springer I’ll stay with it.I don”t condone unwarranted cruelty ,thats just wrong,but here activists have given animals more rights than humans.Rock on.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Bg-farmer,

    While I won’t get into what turns me on, in my solicitation for PCP info I asked Rich in Mich and it seems you two share similar views. He told me he did not own a PCP, but if he did he would get the sweet shooting AA200.

    I don’t think they have adjustable power, but otherwise kind of close to what you describe. The shot count is of course directly related to the power output. My Raider would get double the shots at 12 ft lbs.

    Have the fun is the research.

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Jane,

    Can I ask why you favor the Korean PCP’s? I would guess if they were un-shrouded they would be at least as loud as a .22 LR, if not more given their power.

    What will you be hunting with it?

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Kevin,

    Sorry we can’t be FWB 124 buddies. It certainly is a wonderful rifle that has a cult like following.

    The yellow forum classified is a great place to buy and sell. They also love the 124.

    Volvo

  • Jane Hansen Says:

    Volvo:

    European manufacturers face the high production costs of socialist economic legacies coupled with high exchange rates. The Koreans simply deliver better value. The AA and FX offerings seem great, but at double and triple the price, I can’t see it.

    I’m currently at war with an army of woodchucks – large, healthy buggers. I need something that’s good at 30 – 40 yards. Quieter would be better – it’s a suburban neighborhood.

    I appreciate your thoughts on the loudness, but again, we’re all being subjective. I shoot 22LR in my basement range. I simply can’t imagine a PCP being that loud.

    I’ll take any additional advice you may have.

    regards,

    Jane

  • Anonymous Says:

    Volvo,

    So, Rich in Mich likes the S200? I consider that a very sterling recommendation. The only thing missing from that gun is adjustable power (and the lack of a direct comparison to the next edition of the Discovery which might be better).

    Jane, all of the Korean PCPs I’ve heard of are big bores which would be louder than smallbores if noise is a big concern. What’s your weapon now? I had you figured for a PCP person.

    Matt61

  • Anonymous Says:

    Off Topic – JSB Predator pellets

    Anyone else shot these into gelatin? They tumbled over inside the gelatin and stopped backwards! (10 meters from Daisy 22SG with 10 pumps)

    Herb

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    Personally, I’m with you on how many guns you can shoot and shoot well when ever you want to. If I wasn’t starting the air rifle range, I would be selling down to 4 or 5 myself.

    As it is, I’m making an executive decision and selling off the springers with recoil over 800fps with a jsb 8.4 exact.. and replacing that inventory space with older classics, even if they need rebuilding.

    When someone new or old comes into the rifle range, I want them to be able to take an air rifle off the shelf and hit bulls eyes, if they are half use to a rifle.. If anyone wants more power, it needs to be accurate as well, and the Condor, Talon (very quite with bloop tube) and to a lesser degree, the Evanix AR6 ( AR6 still very loud) meet the bill.

    With my Air Arms S410 .177 (super quite out of the box) close behind in the power arena, and leading the way in number of shots without loss of POI and a tie with, or win with the condor on accuracy..

    Still if you can afford it, (as you decide, how many springers do you have?… or will you buy on the way to the real solution?)…. The FX wisper, I haven’t tried yet, or the Air Arms S410 with the 10 shot magazines are really a great buy. If you consider all the air rifles you don’t need anymore…or how many you might buy to get where you want to be, even if you don’t know where that is yet…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,
    The pair of pistols in “tomb raider” were USP’s in .45ACP. They just had compensators. I was shooting my Storm Xt (custom stock/spring) and noticed the rifle was way to the right at 100yrds but dead on at 65.I observed this after changing the stock. Maybe the new stock design that tends to fit my fingers better (harder gripping)is messing with the “harmonics”.
    Shadow express dude

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Volvo,

    Wow, I did get a little metaphorically steamy — my mind must not be totally focussed on airguns today. Thanks for not sharing!:) Probably just the Tomb Raider reference.

    It seems like just yesterday that I mentioned the AA S200 and S400MPR were interesting to me:). I’m cynical about the infinitely adjustable power — don’t want anything to mess with, just “hi” and “lo”, with the system optimized for “lo” if I have to make a choice. I know I’m not a real shooter, because I don’t like to get nutty about everything:). The AA S200 seems like a PCP for the likes of me.

    Several people have mentioned a (probably de-tuned) Disovery-like action with high-grade barrel on a Challenger stock, which wouldn’t be a bad start, either. Gun and pump under $500?

    Unrelated, it does seem like a sound technician with access to PA’s inventory could answer our PCP noise-level questions authoritatively.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Jane,

    If I understand correctly, your .22 LR is not appropriate due to the noise level? Certainly the power would be sufficient for ground hogs at those distances.

    While I don’t consider myself an expert in judging sound levels, given my Raider’s discharge at a best of 24 ft lbs, the stronger Korean PCP’s need to be at least as loud. Too loud for a suburban yard.

    I honestly don’t think you’ll be happy unless you choose a shrouded rifle. The closer you can get to 30 ft lbs the better.

    Have you considered pre-owned?

    Volvo

    Ps- I have to thank you for the “I simply can’t imagine a PCP being that loud.” Statement.

  • Walther Falcon Hunter guy Says:

    LE Targets, Jane? Do they show up in a Google search?

    –WFH

  • Anonymous Says:

    Matt61,

    I think Rich is a die-hard spring fan; so don’t look for him to buy that PCP anytime soon. He did just buy my .25 cal BSA XL.

    The reason I didn’t take his suggestion is that I enjoy Springer’s in the 12 ft lb range, and one of the PCP advantages is easy power.

    If I recall BB’s review the new Raider 10’s get closer to 30 ft lbs, but only ten good shots on a fill. I like my 30 shots at in the lowmid twenties.

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Anonymous,

    I agree it if difficult to judge exact sound levels, but if it hurts and makes your ears ring, it is loud. That was the affect of the Raider in the basement. Obviously being indoors magnifies the sound.

    I also agree that staying on the right side of the law is important. Volvo is way too cute for prison.

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Herb,

    Neat looking pellet, but I never tried them.

    any other tests?

  • Anonymous Says:

    Although there are quite a few factory shrouded PCP’s – A friend of mine has a Logun S-16 that really is “mouse fart” quiet – many of the unshrouded ones can be loud as all heck. My AF Condor certainly was before I shrouded it.

    What I like about the AF guns, besides the simplicity and power, is the lego block mod-ability of the design. To tame the bark you can either buy any one of several different off-someone’s-shelf shrouds, or you can make your own with 1″ OD aluminum tube, and twenty bucks worth of odds and ends from the hardware store. After some assembly and epoxy cure time, spray your new shroud matte black to match the gun frame it slides neatly into, and it looks like part of a loooong bull barreled rifle. Heck, spray it pink and never have to worry about scared neighbors again.

    To be honest, my homebrewed shroud kinda transforms my Condor with the folded bipod into a spear gun from a galaxy far far away. Chewbacca wouldn’t be unfamiliar with it at all.

    On the bright side, after the ghetto LDC mod, all I can hear is the hammer-slap/tank-ping, a reasonable chooof, and the sound of the pellet slamming some unfortunate thing downrange.

    Any misgivings I may have had about the ghetto-blaster’s A-10 Warthog aesthetics quickly faded away after the first few shots.

    I can now shoot all day long in my backyard without the boom-crack that I used to have to warn my neighbors about.

    - Stx420

  • Walther Falcon Hunter guy Says:

    I found it, Jane. Looks like Good Stuff.

    The problem with quantifying the sound of firing is it is an impulse rather than a steady state and most commonly available instruments will underreport the sound pressure level by several orders of magnitude. And instruments that are accurate when reading impulse noise are not inexpensive.

    –WFH

  • Vince Says:

    Jane, according to CCI their .22 CB (710fps, 29gr) discharges at a muzzle energy of 32 ft-lbs, dropping only to 28 ft-lbs at 50 yards.

    http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=0026

    Out of a full-size gun, I’ve had springers that were louder. Might this round be adequate for your needs?

  • Jane Hansen Says:

    Hi all – thanks for the great feedback.

    To Walter Falcon Hunter:
    The LE panel is my 22LR backstop. I use a piece of 1/4 steel behind it. Firearms will get into the steel, but so far, no pellet gun gets in deep. It's a great, large, backstop.

    To anonymous / Volvo:
    Yes, I've considered pre-owned, but haven't found anything reasonable. Classifieds list used FX & Daystate for a few hundred less than new – no bargain in my book. Used means 50-75% off retail to this girl. I'd love a good deal on an AAS410, but not if it costs more than a new AR6.

    Finally, I don't want to get too technical, but sound-pressure measurements of firearms, (pellet guns, firecrackers, chainsaws, jet engines, and yes, rocket motors), work just fine. Yes, you will get different readings from different angles, and true – the decibel scale is logorithmic, so any 10Db increase is always twice as loud. A decent meter is only about $150. Seems B.B. should have one by now.

    I'd take the 22LR rifle to the whistle-pigs, but it'd be illegal to use outdoors, and probably not safe – they travel too far…

    best regards all

    Jane

  • Anonymous Says:

    Jane Hansen

    I think the best choice for what you describe would be an Airforce Talon SS in .22 caliber. It has enough power to take woodchucks at 40 yards and more than enough accuracy. It doesn’t have as much power as the Korean PCPs but it is much more quiet. It’s priced the same as most of the Korean PCPs and if you purchase an Airforce rifle from Pyramyd Air they give you a free CO2 adapter which is $95alone.The only thing you might not like is the air tank/butt stock. It feels a little different than a regular rifle stock.

    The price is also what kept me from getting something like the S410.
    If you can wait something will come up in the classifieds but the good deals go quick sometimes in a few minutes.

    jeff

  • wayne Says:

    Jane,

    I'm making an effort to only have mid level noise, so there is no chance anyone will think we are shooting .22lr here at the Ashland Air Rifle Range..

    The AR6 is the loudest and most powerful PCP I've got, if only a little more than the Condor, which is now pretty quite with the bloop tube. The six shot and thumb hammer are really fun and quick, but it uses air up real fast on high power.. It is almost as nice to hold and shoulder as my AAS410, but it and the Condor both have a little recoil, about like a HW-30, which is no problem, just for you to know.

    Because the barrel only sticks out about 2-1/2", I don't know if a shroud will work or not, but I'm not going to make one for it, and scratch up the barrel, it's like new, less than 300 shots on it. If you are serious, about wanting all that power and the same noise level as your .22lr, then email me and I'll give you a great deal on my .22 cal AR6 and a complete setup if you want..

    wayne.burns@naturalyards.com

    Wayne
    AARR&R

  • Anonymous Says:

    Jane,

    Investment wise, the fact that quality air rifles hold their value could be considered a plus. My collection has faired much better than most of my more traditional investments, unfortunately.

    It is not unusually for 85 to 90 percent value to be asked on newer firearms airguns that are in excellent condition. If you decide to sell, you’ll enjoy that benefit also.

    This is one of the more trusted sites:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/

    Just check the BOI, and make sure it is one of the good guys. You could also post a WTB ad. It is free.

    Goodluck,

    Volvo

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wayne,

    Looks like we were typing at the same time again. I thought you would offer the S410?

    Good luck if you go out for Elk tomorrow. If you get one, have your picture taken next to it with your AA S410.

    I think we would all love to see that.

    Volvo

  • Mr B. Says:

    Jane, PA has lots of Shinsung PCP’s on line. I’m in love with a Talon SS and optional Moderator. My Discovery is too loud for the backyard. Check under PA’s specs on the web for a loudness number. A .22 pellet and a head shot = one less woodchuck every time. Let us know what and why that what decided your particular PCP purchase. Thanks Mr B.

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    I didn’t here from Josh yet for the early morning, but we might go in the day and wait on the perch until dark, and see if a big boy elk will come down to drink and soak off the ticks, or to get away from the hunters up the mountain…

    It’s a nice meditation listening to the water trickle, on it’s way to the pond, with the hope of antlers rustling through the brush on their way to the pond….It’s a winner either way, but we will see if the elk spirit who wants to be human, gives me the once in a 100 year shot….
    I wanted to shoot so bad walking and sitting all day with the marlin 30/30, on the hunt Wed. that I stopped by the center fire rifle range today on the way back from the supply run, it’s only 1/4 mile off the route, to punish some shoot and see targets from the FT sitting position, it went well.

    Everyone at the office and shop wants to know why I want to go for supplies now… and why I take so long to get back, and forget to get half the stuff….

    Not really, they are happy I’m not the work-a-holic I use to be… but now I’m a shoot-a-holic… I love shooting that Marlin 336RC 30/30, almost as much as the Air Arms S410 .177… I guess the 336 is the light recoil of the center fire world, and that’s for me, but it’s more than that, the lever action carbine, and sound of the all that foot power launching, is a great feeling for some reason…

    But I still haven’t found a goat to carry me yet…

    Wayne,

  • Gordon McKinney Says:

    Slightly OT… I made a paper target for short and long range, it can be downloaded here:

    http://www.night-ray.com/GMAirGunTarget.pdf

    Print with page scaling turned off.

    Do you think it deserves a permanent link/blog post? I may tweak the layout; so link rather than host the PDF.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jane,

    At 10 feet to the right (90 degrees) of the muzzle of a .22-caliber Career 707 the sound level was measured at 123.7 dB. A .22 long rifle measured 128 dB. And a Sheridan Blue Streak on 8 pumps measured 118 dB, as I recall.

    I'm on the road and don't have access to the data, but the Korean gun was quieter than the rimfire.

    However, several people said they couldn't hear any difference. We used a calibrated sound meter with three scales (A, B & C).

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Gordon,

    I’m on the road now and can’t do the things I normally do at home.

    Please contact me again about your target on next Wednesday.

    B.B.

  • Gordon McKinney Says:

    BB, thank you. I’ve marked my calendar.

  • kevin Says:

    Jane ( and anyone else interested),

    I agree that “mouse fart quiet” is very subjective. Depends on size of mouse, diet of mouse, etc. Scientific variables almost endless.

    Here’s a site where quit a few guns were tested for noise levels. Hope it helps a little:

    http://www.straightshooters.com/documents/decibelrating.html

    Everyone,

    IMHO we need to be a little careful about this talk about bloop t*bes, moderators or anything else that fits over the barrel of a rifle designed to affect noise. IMHO, we need to be very careful about referring to the people that make these devices. IMHO, we need to be very, very careful about admitting to have built one and attached it to our own guns. Would encourage you to read this:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/

    Just my two cents.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    hi bb, thank you for your blog. I have a question which id be very appreciative if youd answer. Is the .20 and .177 benji/sheridan pumpers more accurate than the 392? i want to buy a good pumper, and want an accurate one. also, is the .22 pellet alot more expensive? thank you for your time

  • Anonymous Says:

    Benjamin Pumpers

    The accuracy of the three should be the same. The .22 pellets are a bit more expensive than .177 and .20 pellets are the same price as .22. If you are going to hunt with it .22 would have a little more knock down power than .177.

    jeff

  • Mr B. Says:

    Hi Kevin: That was a good read. The stuff we use isn’t threaded and cann’t be attached to a fire arm without extensive modifications. Would save lots of bucks by starting that project from scratch. I personaly see no legal problems with our models and own a couple myself. Just some thoughts from Mr B. B.B., savor the ride. Enjoy the memories. Arrive home safely.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Benjamin 392,

    There should be no difference in accuracy between the three calibers, but if there is, I would think the .177 would be slightly better than the other two.

    B.B.

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