Friday, September 25, 2009

TS-45 - An early Chinese sidelever

by B.B. Pelletier

The history of me and Chinese airguns isn't that old. Ray Apelles and his father, who were subscribers to The Airgun Letter, were experimenting with them and they were leaning on me to test them. I said no, but other readers picked up the thread and before I knew it I was in the middle of a huge plot that had me not only testing Chinese guns but also modifying them.

Then, I encountered the late Paul Landrith at the Little Rock Airgun Expo. Paul, a semi-retured barber, sold and repaired airguns in his shop in Arlington, Texas. He was well-known for his work with vintage Benjamin guns, but he also sold some early models of Chinese spring guns. Among them was a rather good-looking sidelever called the TS-45. I had already tested a TS-45 for The Airgun Letter by this time, but the rifle Paul was selling looked nothing like what I had tested. It was both sleeker and better looking.


Older-style TS-45 sidelever was an attractive air rifle.


Paul had been selling these rifles for years before hearing of a beartrap accident with one. He stopped selling when he learned of it, and then disassembled each one and made certain the anti-beartrap mechanism was functioning before he sold it. That slowed his sales quite a bit, so he sat on a pile of rifles for many years before bringing them to Little Rock. I bought one after learning of its possible faults and promising never to let go of that sidelever while the breech was open. Through this strange twist of fate, I was able to buy a 20-year-old air rifle as new-old stock.

General description
The rifle is mid-sized, at 40.5 inches long and 6 lbs., 12 oz., total weight. It's a sidelever spring-piston rifle that uses a sliding compression chamber, so the access to the breech is large when the compression chamber is slid all the way back. The rifle has a ratcheting anti-beartrap mechanism, but it's entirely dependent on springs and is not controlled by the shooter in any way. If the springs were to bind or fail and the sear were to slip while someone is loading a pellet, severe damage would be done to one or more digits that got caught in the way.


When the sidelever was pulled out, the gun cocked and the sliding compression chamber went back out of the way for loading.


The wooden stock is made from some kind of hardwood and covered by a tough shiny finish that doesn't completely cover all the exposed wood. Sling swivels are mounted on the stock, so you can add a sling--and a one-inch strap will just fit.


Should we finish the wood--or not? Apparently that was the question.


The metal finish is a thin black oxide (conventional gun "blue") over metal that appears to not be prepped in any special way. Perhaps, the parts were tumbled, but that's as far as things went. There's no plastic to be found anywhere on the outside of the rifle, which helps confirm the early manufacturing date.


The metal got finished by itself, if it wanted to--or not.


Being Chinese and from the 1970s, it's almost guaranteed that the bore will be large for most pellets. The Chinese manufacturers started rifling their barrels with overbore buttons they could hone and re-hone over time and still be able to rifle the bore. I've never encountered an undersized Chinese airgun barrel, but I've seen plenty that were too large.

Sights
The rear sight, which is spot-welded to the spring tube, is adjustable for elevation only, using a stepped elevator. No horizontal adjustment is possible. There are also no provisions for a scope, though I believe there was an active aftermarket business of scope mount installation going on.


Rear sight adjusts for elevation only. But that seems to be all the rifle needs. Note the release catch on the sidelever. Must be pressed down to unlock the lever.


Trigger
The trigger is single-stage and as crude as a trigger can get. It breaks at 9 lbs., which makes the rifle difficult to hold for precision shooting. There are absolutely no provisions for adjustment, so anything you do to make it work better will have to be done by gunsmithing. Incidentally, that's a guess about the breaking weight, because my RCBS trigger-pull scale only goes up to 8 lbs. I have to interpolate the extra pound from where the indicator is when the gun lets go.

When the gun fires, the impulse is quick and relatively free of vibration. Of course, the rifle isn't that powerful, but it's more pleasant than I would have imagined. I have owned this rifle for about 12 years now, and this is the first time I've really tried to see what it can do.

Velocity
This rifle averaged 519 f.p.s. with Eley Wasps, which are too small for the bore. The spread was from 503 to 535, indicative of a couple diesels in the string. Gamo Match fit the bore a little better and averaged 539, with a tighter spread from 526 to 545. But Crosman Premier 7.9-grain hollowpoints fit the bore well and gave an average of 502. The spread was the tightest, ranging from 495 to 510.

Accuracy
Don't hope for much and be surprised if you get any. That's my motto with older Chinese airguns. I shot from a bag rest using the artillery hold. The distance was 25 yards.


Ten Crosman Premier hollowpoints sailed through this loose group at 25 yards. Open sights.



Ten Beeman Ram Jets went into this 1.766" group. Not bad for an old Chinese air rifle and open sights.



Six Gamo Match pellets went into this group measuring 0.909". This was the smallest group of the session, though I shot only six times instead of ten.


What's the verdict?
Well, until I shot those Gamo Match pellets, this rifle performed about as I thought it would. But that group is tight enough to warrant further investigation. This may be a nicer gun than I thought!

66 Comments:

At September 25, 2009 5:43 AM, Anonymous twotalon said...

B.B.
I got some repair parts from the son of Mr. Landrith in Arlington a couple years ago.

twotalon

 
At September 25, 2009 5:50 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Twotalon,

Yes, his son continues to repair airguns for gun stores out here in Texas, too.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 6:00 AM, Anonymous twotalon said...

B.B.
It's pretty early for me...
The parts I got were the o-rings for the piercing assembly on my 78G.
He will sell parts when he can get them, instead of forcing you to send him the gun.
Nice guy, but I forgot how funny Texans talk.

twotalon

 
At September 25, 2009 6:41 AM, Blogger JTinAL said...

BB
Just can't get comfortable with the idea
of sticking my fat fingers in a trap to
load.:)
Aside from that it seems like some of
these {clunks} have some potential for
cheap accuracy if you're willing to tinker
What's your views on choking these loose
bbls.worthwhile or too much trouble?

Just to get the rat killin started this
weekend,I read something on Crosmans
site that I may have misunderstood.
Are they putting dovetails on the 392
now or are they referring to the mount
that PA sells as an accessory ?

 
At September 25, 2009 6:53 AM, Blogger David said...

B.B.
I saw that Pyramyd is now stocking an Air Arms 10.334 gr. pellet.... Can I assume that these are JSB Heavies since they carry the 8.4 exacts made by them also ??
If so they will save me a couple bucks since they are priced lower than the JSB's I normally buy.

 
At September 25, 2009 7:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B

A little bit of topic... I am just in the process of selection between several PCP's and in my narrow choice are 3 air guns all in 0.22 cal. namely:

Evanix master hunter
Evanix renegade
Benjamin marauder

Master hunter is not my first choice since hunting with air guns in my country is forbidden, so basically I need the air gun for field targeting. Master hunter is chosen primarily for power. But I guess Renegade has enough power also. I guess accuracy is similar, up to the 50 yards? Benjamin Marauder doesn't have so much power as Evanix, but could be more accurate (free floating and chocked barrel)... I am asking for your advice since there are no PCP guns in my country for sale, and I have to import them, so that means that the price would be almost double of what you people have in the US.

Thanks,
Gordan

 
At September 25, 2009 8:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB:

I got a very simular TS-45 from Compaseco in the early 1980's. Seems to shoot a bit harder at 650 to 675 fps and was reasonably accurate. Price back the was about $45.

Al

 
At September 25, 2009 9:16 AM, Blogger derrick38 said...

TS-45's:
I've seen some people cut a small wooden dowel with a short cord tied around the middle. Dowel goes into the sliding compression chamber to block forward travel should the sear slip--thus protecting your fingers. Cord lets it be pulled out. I'm working on one of the TS-45 variants, the B3-1, right now and found that tidbit while doing some research.

I must have the national match grade trigger--it occasionally broke at 8.5 pounds.

 
At September 25, 2009 9:20 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Volvo,

That guy is BRILLIANT! ;-)

1 1/2 lbs of weight in the stock? Wow. What's the weight now that you have it scoped? (Leapers?) I'll bet you'll have a lighter and more streamlined scope on that wonderful vintage piece before long.

Glad to hear the pellets grouped. I really like them. The jsb monsters that are now coming into the country seem to be getting mixed reviews though.

Thanks for keeping me in the loop on the 55's progress.

kevin

 
At September 25, 2009 9:25 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Gordan,

I'm sure B.B. will answer you shortly.

.22 caliber for field target?

Since Wayne is totally engrossed in field target and since he's owned the evanix renegade and the marauder I hope he has time to offer his opinion.

Pyramyd Air will test your gun for a small fee prior to shipping. Since shipping will be expensive to your destination you may want to consider this.

kevin

 
At September 25, 2009 9:32 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Gordan,

I choose the Marauder. It is more accurate than either of the other rifles you mentioned. The trigger is much better. The Marauder is far quieter.

But like Kevin, I must say that .177 is the ONLY caliber for the sport of field target. Unless you didn't mean that, but were just talking about general field shooting? Then .22 caliber is fine.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 9:33 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

David,

It's a good bet those are JSBs, because once a company forms a bond with another company they usually don't shop around.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 9:36 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

JTinAL,

Interesting that you should ask about the barrel, because with my other TS-45, I had Dennis Quackenbush install a choked Lothar Walther barrel. I had tuned the rifle by following the steps dictated by Ray Apelles, and I did the barrel thing just to see how nice I could make the gun. In the end I had an accurate .177 sidelever that cost me about what an RWS Diana 34 cost.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 10:27 AM, Blogger JTinAL said...

Never mind about the 392 they've already
changed the wording on crosman site.

BB
that seems a little extreme,but then who
am I to talk after what I just did to a
chinese springer:)

 
At September 25, 2009 11:28 AM, Anonymous Volvo said...

Copying the genius of the other Walther LG 55 owner I have made the same changes. I even found an orange blanket for my photos as I felt that was key.

Just to summarize, the Aperture sights are replaced with rings and a scope, the 1 ½ chunk of lead goes away and has a foam sanding block replacement, the barrel sleeve is simply removed but will have a muzzle brake installed soon. The complete rifle and scope is now a just right 7.5 lbs total like my beloved FX Cyclone.

The pairing is the current replacement for my R-1 and R-7 combo that was all I needed for many years.

http://s406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/chrismel_02/?start=0

 
At September 25, 2009 11:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.

I've always been concerned about the anti-bear trap mechanism in my B30, but it has performed flawlessly. So gradually, I've gotten away from my technique of keeping an elbow in the way of the sidelever while cocking.

Matt61

 
At September 25, 2009 11:40 AM, Anonymous SO17 said...

That is the same body/barrel as my AK47 type sidelever which I bought in about 99/2000.
The guy who spot welds the rear sight must be getting old by now because on my rifle the sight is about as straight as a Bison in a wonky shopping trolley.
Still working on my quest for more power but it is fun to shoot and tough as old boots.
Also if it dont kill the vermin outright you can always beat them to death with the butt.
Dave.

 
At September 25, 2009 11:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.

What is the time frame for the army to sell off ammo as surplus? It might give me a time frame on how long my own hoard is good. The 40 year old Greek ammo for the M1 fails to feed about 1 round in 50, so obviously deterioration has set in. On the other hand, some surplus that I see looks almost brand new.

So there I was traveling this past weekend, and the shuttle driver mentioned to some passenger, in the course of discussing the war in Afghanistan, that he had served his country in Grenada as an army sniper with 12 confirmed kills. I couldn't help asking later, when the other passengers had left, what his equipment was. "M16A1 on full automatic," he says. "You take what they give you. I hunted with a 30-06 when I was a little kid." He went on, "Most people sighted their rifles at 50 yards. I sighted mine for 300 yards, and I could put 3 slugs in one hole...That was before they found out I was near-sighted...I found out for sure when I went to intercept a fly ball in the outfield, and the ball hit me right in the back of the head... By the way, you know if I hadn't gone into the army in Grenada, you would probably have seen me in the NFL..."

Matt61

 
At September 25, 2009 12:06 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Volvo,

What a beautiful pair of rifles together especially when you consider you have a very wide range of the airgun shooting spectrum covered very nicely. 7.5 lbs. scoped is very impressive.

You slipped in the synthetic FX and an old diana 34?. Long gone I must assume.

Thanks for sharing your journey. Very informative. I'm struggling with this next one. PCP carbine or vintage spring gun like the walthers/dianas.

The more I read about the FX Cyclone the more intrigued I am. Adjustable power, accurate, lightweight, good fit & finish, easily scoped, good magazines, etc.

I'm off to the mountains. This is the boys weekend. Poker, shooting and fishing. See ya.

kevin

 
At September 25, 2009 12:07 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

If the beartrap mechanism in a B30 is an exact copy of the Diana sidelever beartrap mechanism, it is pretty darn reliable. You can even see the stepped block that has grabbed the compression chamber.

The TS -45 beartrap is all inside the gun, where you just have to trust that it's working.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 12:09 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

Don't blame failures to feed on the ammo. Blame your en-block clips. One of them isn't working right. It is a VERY common problem when you reuse clips all the time.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 12:14 PM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

BB,
I think chinese clunks are the sweet spot for enjoying the hobby economically and learning how things work. Somebody once said to think of them more as a kit than a finished rifle, and that seems to be the way to have fun with them. That said, in the three I've got (including my wife's), only one (the 36-2) has required anything substantial to shoot well, but once it was put right it has repaid me many times over in performance. The Hammerli 490 hasn't ever had a hiccup in thousands of pellets (except the trigger going dry and getting hard to pull), while the QB88 had to be shot quite a bit before it broke in due to heavy oiling.

JT,
If you like the TS45 but are afraid to mash you wittle fingers(:)), you can look for a QB88, which is a similar action, but with a steel hook to retain the cylinder and manual release button. Also has a clone of the Gamo trigger, which is adjustable and usable as is but can be updated to aftermarket triggers also.

 
At September 25, 2009 12:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B. (and Matt), I'm reading a very good book titled 'Green Eyes and Black Rifles'...a troopers guide to the M16/M4 and he would back B.B. up...these rifles are very intolerant of a damaged or worn clip.
CowBoyStar Dad

 
At September 25, 2009 1:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

B.B.

Oho, now that is a revelation. Gee, how did you guess that I reuse my clips... I had assumed that the en bloc clips worked forever, and I had them bouncing all over the concrete after ejection. I have noticed that some them have been harder to load. I assume that there's no way to straighten them out. Is there a good source for en bloc clips? Some online clips get bad reviews.

BG_Farmer, your observation is exactly what I found with the Chinese rifles. From the factory, quite sloppy, but once tuned, of outstanding quality. I'll go with Bob Werner's estimate that the B30 is one of the best values in airguns. A $150 tune can turn a $150 rifle into a $500 rifle--so he said.

CowBoyStar Dad, yes one of the many flaws of the M16, apparently, was the magazine design. If one of the triumphs of the Mauser action was its excellent feeding system, then a bad magazine could be proportionately harmful to the whole rifle.

On a more upbeat note, I read yesterday that the M240 General Purpose Machine Gun GPMG or Gimpy which has done such a stellar job for a quarter century is based on the old BAR action. So, the Belgian connection of John Browning continues to hold. That means a large part of our small arms inventory date from the early 20th century: the 1911 pistol, the M14 rifle, the M-240, and the M2 heavy machine gun. The M16 rifle is one of the very few new additions which, I understand, is due for replacement soon.

Also on the subject of military procurement, I read that the m39 designated marksman's rifle (rebuilt M14) is $4000 and is topped with a 3-12X40 Schmidt and Bender scope at $3000 for a total of $7000. It's a real bargain compared to the M110 sniper system (high powered M16 design) at $14000. I'm all for our troops getting the best, but this sounds excessive.

Matt61

 
At September 25, 2009 2:04 PM, Blogger ajvenom said...

It's been raining here lately, so I've been cleaning up my work desk/bench in the basement. Now I will have some space to work on my airguns. Actually, I only have one project left. I was going to try spraying some truck bed liner paint on the stock of a Mendoza 650 BB gun. The Mendoza was an affordable returned model with a poor stain job. Apparently, I didn't do much better and I think the truck bed liner/tactical look would be better.

As for the Quest 800, it's awsome with a basic tune and trigger work. It hasn't let me down yet. It took a while to figure out the hold, light as possible, but now it really rocks.


BB - I can't find my 10M scoring question....what is the 60 shots plus 10 mean?


oh my, word verification:

blitch

....lol!!!!

 
At September 25, 2009 2:06 PM, Anonymous twotalon said...

B.B. or anyone......
I'm getting around 750 fps with this new 48 with .22 cphp.
How far off does this sound??

twotalon

 
At September 25, 2009 2:08 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Matt,

How do I know you re-use your en-blocks? Because I do. And I've had the same problem as you.

The en-block is a spring that holds the cartridges in not only a certain configuration, but also at a certain tension. It's real easy for one to get out of whack.

When the government bought them they didn't count on endless reloadings like you and I do. So just watch which ones give problems and occasionally thin the herd.

A real common fault is ejecting the clip before all the cartridges are used. Blame the en-block every time.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 2:12 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Ajvenom,

A 10-meter pistol (or rifle) match is 60 shots. At the end of those shots when the competition is World Cup or Olympic, the top shooters are allowed 10 additional shots. These are scored by a decimal system, with the best possible shot being a 10.9 (I believe). At the end of that round, their scores are added to the first 60 shots and the winner is decided.

So the top shooters shoot 60 plus 10.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 2:14 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Twotalon,

Your rifle sounds like it's on the low side of normal.

I don't know about CP hollowpoints in .22 caliber. Could you try another pellet? Real Premiers from the cardboard box, perhaps?

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 2:28 PM, Anonymous twotalon said...

B.B.
Boxed CP 814 fps average, pretty tight spread. Only did 5 shots.

twotalon

 
At September 25, 2009 2:30 PM, Anonymous Volvo said...

Bg farmer,
I like Chinese also; my favorite is the number 64 hot and spicy family style. Anyway, here is the Walther 55 so far if you have not seen it yet.

I think the reason it was the quietest on the testing BB published awhile back is the steel barrel sleeve and huge lead sinker that I have removed. I would guess it is still at or less than an R-7.
It had a little twang to it, so I used some of the JM heavy tar on the spring, maybe too much because it went from 525 to 534 fps with H&N match to about 500 fps. Anyone think it will break in, or should I clean some off? Absolutely dead calm however.

Pellet wise it likes the HN match the best so far. I ordered 4 different tins of some others from PA yesterday.

Time to save the tomato paste cans again…

Volvo

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1253857621/Walther+LG+55+on+a+diet

 
At September 25, 2009 2:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

More 70s junk.
Shadow express dude

 
At September 25, 2009 3:14 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Twotalon,

And THAT'S why they pay me the big bucks!

I thought you might do better with them. My average for a new 48 is around 810 f.p.s., but I have seen them shoot down around 760, too.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 3:15 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Volvo,

Keep dead calm and keep shooting. I think you;ll eventually see 510.

B.B.

 
At September 25, 2009 3:56 PM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

Volvo,
BB beat me to it -- unless you have a huge basement, what difference does 25fps make:).

Nice rifle, very nice. I've always been partial to the FWB300, should I develop a usable indoor range (not to mention some serious 10M skills), but that must be as good or better. Why did you remove the weights? I would think they are there to keep it steady.

Chinese food -- I like it all, except for the pig liver in pig blood with scorching hot pepper oil that a friend treated me to one time. Other than that one dish I love it all, although the local chinese restaurants here make a liberal use of baby corn, which tastes like, um, something I don't want to eat:).

You may win a Quigley bucket yet!

 
At September 25, 2009 3:59 PM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

Volvo,
One more thing -- we've been making our sauce this summer with the bushels of Roma tomatoes we keep dragging in this year. Very tasty, but the cans are easier:).

 
At September 25, 2009 4:17 PM, Blogger ajvenom said...

BB - thanks for the artical on splatology. Over a few years I've shot at a telephone book with crosman .177 7.9gr domes or .22 14.3 domes at 10M to determine velocity or ftlbs to some degree of accuracy. It at least can tell me if airgun is getting weaker.

From what I've seen most stock airguns shoot, I would say they would run about 90 percent of the advertised velocity with a crosman 7.9 .177 dome or 14.3gr .22 dome.

So if a RWS 48 is listed at 900 fps, then I would say off the shelf it would probably be hitting around 810fps with crosman 14.3 hp.

I think 750fps (around 18ftlbs) in a .22 is a nice place to be with a spring. Smooth, accurate and still powerful. It's where I set my Discovery when I go hunting.

 
At September 25, 2009 4:22 PM, Blogger ajvenom said...

article, I was going to switch the word to article......ahhhhhhhhhh

I guess my mind is semi-retured....he he he

 
At September 25, 2009 9:54 PM, Anonymous wayne said...

Hi All,

Been to the coast for a couple days.. oh so nice to get away!

But now back to comments and Field Target practice! We've got a match here on Sunday.

Gordon,

I've got one word for you... "plastics" ...

I know your all to young for the "Graduate" :)

no the word is "Marauder" in .177

But be sure to buy lots of extra magazines, because I'm having a failure rate of 40% on them. The inner spring gets messed up somehow.. nothing is more frustrating than to have a wonderful gun to shoot and the magazine not work!

I've tested 6 marauders now, and just had two custom field target stock made for them, because they are so accurate, and quiet and easy to shoot well.

The Korean guns are not as accurate, less shots and too noisy.

The Evanix Blizzard is great if your hunting and don't need a lot of shots per fill. It is the most accurate Korean gun I've shot. It's pretty quiet for all the power.

I'd choose it for hunting and the Marauder for field target and a good all around gun.
For serious field target you will need a single shot tray to replace the magazine.. there is a guy on the yellow classified making them.

Welcome to air gunning and the blog!

Wacky Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range

 
At September 26, 2009 12:27 AM, Anonymous Herb said...

RE: Flight of football

On the Flight of the American Football
C. Horn and H. Fearn

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0366v1.pdf

A couple of rocket scientists (physicists) analyze the motion of a forward pass...

 
At September 26, 2009 12:27 PM, Blogger CJr said...

I believe there is a guy on this blog named Michael who was interested in the comparative sound levels of the 953 and the Marauder. I promised him an answer when I got back from traveling. I apologize if I have the wrong person. I hope whoever it was is still reading the blogs.

I have nothing new to add to those who have already commented on this. I can only support what they have said: the Marauder is definitely quieter than the 953. This is with comparing a .22 Marauder at 2200 psi to a .177 953. The Marauder IS noticeably quieter!!!

I also said I report on what is the best pellet I've found for (for me) for the 953. It is the JSB Exact 8.4gr followed by the RWS R-10 Match 8.2.

The .22 Marauder loves Crosman Premiers domed 14.3gr. I have some JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr that I just got and haven't tried yet. Let you know later how they work.

I'm probably too late to help you , Michael, with choosing the way to go but if money is no object go with the Marauder. If it is, the 953 is hard to beat for the money. I'd buy another one but Ms. M would get jealous. I'm not Hugh Hefner.


-Chuck

 
At September 26, 2009 12:28 PM, Blogger CJr said...

this comment is to get on the mailing list.

 
At September 26, 2009 3:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wayne,

Too bad about the magazines on the Marauder. One would hope that Crosman gets on top of this or that an aftermarket model becomes available.

I thought the Korean accuracy was top-notch. Surprising.

Herb, that's a great reference for footballs. I'm pleased to see that the PA blog model is essentially correct. In particular, the football pitches down in the course of a throw so that the nose follows the flight path, and the football does precess as a result. Of great interest, although it does not affect the outcome, is what exactly causes the football to pitch down. As the article says, it is not gravity, which just translates the football downward. The article ascribes this force to air resistance--essentially an argument to minimize energy or follow the path of least resistance which is easy enough to understand. I also think this is the easy way out and that the Bernoulli force is still a good candidate although I don't know that I am willing to pursue their next reference.

I also think this article marks the terminus of the football as a useful example since they are analyzing the effect of the hand on the throw and whether the right or left hand is used. That has no relevance to pellet flight, so I'd say we're free and clear and have gotten everything out of the football analogy that we can. One of the article's conclusions is: "When in doubt about projectile ballistics, ask a rocket scientist." He he. We have our own.

Matt61

 
At September 26, 2009 4:25 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

RE: Football

The other thing here is that it depends on the distance of the throw and the spin rate. If you "pitch" a short throw, then the nose will stay at the release angle. It is the long bomb where the nose follows the flight path.

Another difference to pellets is that the football is thrown at relatively low velocity through the air. It depends if air resistance goes up as velocity (application of Stokes' Law for drag of football) or velocity^2 (application of Bernoulli's Principle for air drag of pellet).

It is truly amazing that an 8 year old can throw a football spiral, yet it takes a gaggle of rocket scientists to figure out how it works!

 
At September 26, 2009 10:21 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

Re: Army method for marksmanship

So how does the army do it?

Statistical Measures of Marksmanship

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA387108&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

No mention of group size. Page 21 talks about "Diagonal of Dispersion" which is sort of similar, but not the same thing.

I have seen numerous references to a book by Grubbs. Grubbs evidently published the book himself.

Grubbs, Frank E. (1964).
"Statistical measures of accuracy for riflemen and missle engineers"

seen notes saying "available from the author at 4109 Webster Road, Havre De Grace, Md. 21078"

If the guy is still alive or not is an open question in my mind. He evidently did do another printing in 1991.

 
At September 26, 2009 11:03 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

RE: Found the missing links!!!

Statistical Resampling plans
Malcolm Taylor

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA355522&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

I had read this paper before and blew it off. A really poor simulation in my mind. But on page 17 of the PDF file you can find "Figure 3" which shows a plot of the computer simulation using the bootstrap (resamples experimental data with replacement). You can see that the data is skewed to the right. This is for a sample size of 10, not 3 or 4...

Just above the figure is a statement to the fact that Taylor and Grubbs had studied group size problem and concluded that the chi distribution approximated the observed data (at least for a sample size of 2) as I had wondered. It gives a reference for the paper. That paper is available here. This also seems to confirm notion that only Monte Carlo approaches can be used to unravel this Gregorian knot. This paper is the "golden nugget" for which I have been looking.

"Approximate Probability Distributions for the Extreme Spread"
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA006586&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

This document has the appropriate tables for conversion and confidence intervals. I won't do a blow by blow and differences compared to range analysis that I had done earlier, but I'd guess for more than about four shots in a group that the data analysis would be the same. 2 shots in a group would be about 10% off I think and 3 shots a few percent.

Geeze I get excited easily...

Just happen to be looking up the Grubbs book when I put the pieces together...

 
At September 27, 2009 2:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a Chinese~your gun is really old! I think your gun made in Shanghai and past 30 years ago.Nowadays,China made some good airgun,such as BAM-50;LCG-36;QB-78,they are very good,nice wood;nice barrel~~use them you can get nice shot~!If you have time,I hope you report some new Chinese airgun~

 
At September 27, 2009 6:41 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Chinese reader,

Yes, it is very old. And I think you are right--it was made in Shanghai.

I have reported on several good Chinese airguns. Here are some links to past reports:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/03/testing-tuned-tech-force-97.html

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/12/beeman-ss1000h-dual-caliber-rifle-part.html

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/01/hammerli-490-part-4-another-great-youth.html

Thank you for reading and for sending us your comments.

B.B.

 
At September 27, 2009 8:44 AM, Anonymous Herb said...

RE: Extreme Spread

Factors in table 1 of paper:

"Approximate Probability Distributions for the Extreme Spread"

Are more different that I had guessed, by maybe 20%.

--------------------

Also the way to compare group sizes with different numbers of shots is now clear.

Dividing the observed range by the factors Mu(ES) in column two of the table gives an unbiased estimate of the standard deviation of group size measurement.

The theoretical variation of the group size measurement is best rendered as the "Relative standard deviation of the Mean" (RSD).

The RSD for a 3 shot group is:
100%*0.887/2.406 = 36.9%

For a 10 shot group:
100%*0.745/3.813 = 19.5%

So the variation of a 10 shot group compared to a 3 shot group is:
100%*19.5/36.9 = 52.8%

Or a 10 shot group is "more repeatable than" a 3 shot group by 52.8%

---------------
Enough...

Unless there is wild clamor for more details contact me off line.

 
At September 27, 2009 9:08 AM, Anonymous Herb said...

!@#$%^&*

One more thing that I should say again. The analysis above assumes that there are NO fliers (ever !!) which is probably not a good assumption. You can't possibly speculate about what the "best" number of shots is for a group unless you know what the percentage of fliers will be.

The inclusion of fliers is the weakness of the extreme spread (group size) measurement. Since you are reducing all the data in the group to one measurement, the extreme spread measurement is very sensitive to fliers biasing the measurement.

If you have no idea of what the group size for is (for example trying out some new brand of pellets), then my best guess is still to shoot a number of 5 shot groups. Then analyze the data for fliers.

The really nice thing is now we KNOW what the standard deviation of the measurement should be. From the third column of Table 1, for 10 shots the standard deviation should be 0.745.

 
At September 27, 2009 9:28 AM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

Herb,
Now you have my attention. I've been leaning towards three shot groups for testing, because they have a smaller chance of fliers from human error (and barrel heating, etc., in some cases). What's the best way to take a larger group (e.g. 10) and designate "fliers"? My usual procedure is to eyeball it:). For example, if I shoot 10 shots and 7 are in a nice round group, but 3 are way out in no particular direction, I'll use the 7 shot sub-group as indicative of what to expect from the rifle and ammunition in general. This works surprisingly well and correlates with 5-shot groups, but I know there must be a formal method.

 
At September 27, 2009 1:04 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

BG_Farmer,

"Fliers" are called outliers in statistics.

Three shot groups are fine provided that you shoot a lot of them. The nuance is that the AVERAGE of all of the three shots groups is your expected group size, not the BEST group. Just by chance there will be a wide spread in the measurements. So as you shoot more, you can "improve" your best three hole group. Your average doesn't change, just your chance of getting a "really good" group will improve.


For 30 shots you can have:
(1) Fifteen groups of 2.
(2) Ten groups of 3 shots
(3) Six groups of 5 shots
(4) One group of 30 shots

-------
Note that I really like to go with thirty groups of 1 shot. Like the town fool who shot barn, then drew the circle for POA. ;-)

----------

Without knowing what per percentage of fliers you will have it is impossible to predict what is "best".

----------
For multiple groups, basically you measure group size (of X shots) N times.

Get average group size, GS, and std dev, SD, from your measurements.

Assume 95% confidence interval. Throw out measurements outside window:
GS +/- 2*SD

If you want to be more conservative use 99%:
GS +/- 3*SD

Then recalculate GS and SD.

--------------

With tables we now know what the distribution should look like. So there are other tests that can be used.

-----------

Let me think about the case of having only one group. The variation of the group size does depend on the RSD of the shots within the group.

Seems pretty clear that if nine shots can be covered with a dime and the tenth is a foot away that the tenth shot is a "flier." For instance a bent pellet, but who knows why...

 
At September 27, 2009 1:07 PM, Blogger andy said...

is shooting targets at long ranges such as like 100 yds really possible because i heard that even if you have a gun powerful enough to shoot that far without droping off to dramaticly that the pellet will get blown around by wind and sometimes float because of the way it spirals.

 
At September 27, 2009 1:20 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Andy,

It's not only possible to shoot at 100 yards--it's fun! But don't expect to get firearm groups unless you practice and learn to dope the wind.

B.B.

 
At September 27, 2009 3:04 PM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

Herb,
Thanks -- what you said about 3 shot groups sounds reasonable. I'm definitely interested in your thoughts on classification of outliers.

 
At September 27, 2009 3:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Im now working on a 1972 daisey model 30-30 and its got a jam of some kind. The cocking lever is cocked but will not go back. I've tryed pretty hard to get it to go back but im afraid i'll break something. Can i do some thing to releas the lever or does anyone have a diagram of how the mecanism works so maybe i can fix it?

 
At September 27, 2009 4:15 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

If you don't get an answer here, try calling Daisy customer service. They often send out parts diagrams.

B.B.

 
At September 27, 2009 5:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BG_Farmer,

Here is David Tubb's classification of outliers. He says that if he takes a bad shot, he reviews what he did. It all comes down to the question: "Would I have taken that shot again?" If the answer is no, he identifies the problem and fixes it. If the answer is yes, he forgets it and goes on to the next shot.

Matt61

 
At September 27, 2009 6:09 PM, Blogger BG_Farmer said...

Matt,

I can't argue with that. What I'm looking for is a systematic way to use the data in a larger group without corruption from fliers. For example, if I'm trying out a new lot of ammo or pellets, its handy to shoot a larger group, but with the larger group comes more of a chance for momentary lapses, gusts of wind, etc. These things may tell me necessary information about my self-discipline or choice of shooting conditions, but they don't help me decide whether the ammo. is worth using for real. On the other hand, I've got a "feel" for what a large group should look like including fliers, which generally holds up when I buckle down.

I know it sounds lazy, but it seems to work better for me than spending an inordinate amount of time trying to shoot perfect groups with unknown ammo. If I had any justification it might be that it minimizes the role of expectations:).

 
At September 27, 2009 10:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BG_Farmer,

I think that one point of the David Tubb quote is that it is not really possible to get a group that is not corrupted by fliers. The normal distribution is just a statistical model applied to a system of independent variables--in effect a random system. The bell curve tells us that there are outliers based on pure probability. But there is no system that is purely random. It is mixed in with our human behavior (and the environment) which has some variation that is approximately random and some that is identifiably not (flinching at the discharge). How do you sift all of this out? You can refine your statistical model to make it sensitive to deviations from pure randomness. This will give an indication of some systematic problem but will not identify it.

As a practical matter, I don't think you can really do better than separating the called from the uncalled fliers which is the David Tubb method. It is possible that some of the uncalled were really shooter error without your realizing it, but I suspect the number is small. When I shoot a bad shot, I almost always know why.

My guess is that if you can shoot a 30 shot group with new ammo in reasonable conditions without obvious deviation from a radial pattern and without many called fliers, you can be pretty sure your group represents what the ammo can do. I wouldn't recommend small (3 shot groups). These are much more variable and controlled by their own normal distribution. To be certain of the size of your 3 shot groups, you would have to shoot a lot of them...30 in fact. :-) So you would be just as vulnerable to the wind not to mention that much poorer.

Matt61

 
At September 27, 2009 10:44 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

Re: Outliers

President Truman was supposed to have lamented that he needed a one armed statistician in his cabinet. He was tired of statisticians saying yada yada yada, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND...
;-)

It depends on how you want to classify "outliers." If someone slaps you on the back and you take an unexpected shot that goes wild, then that isn't an "outlier." The deviation is due to an "assignable cause."

If you want to decide if you would have taken the shot again, it would be best if you didn't really know where the shot hit. That is the whole point of blind experiments - No bias.

On the other hand, let's say that 1 in twenty of the pellets in a tin is deformed. Then there are two distributions. One for the unbent pellets, and one for the bend pellets. The bent pellets "contaminate" the non-bent pellets. This isn't an assignable cause since I haven't sorted the pellets to know what are bent and which are not.

A 95% confidence interval is fairly typical for laboratory experiments. The sort of procedure I outlined above is routinely used to eliminate anomalies. A 95% confidence interval just means that 19 times out of 20 I'm right to reject the measurement. You accept that 1 time in twenty that you will be wrong. Only in very unusual circumstances will chopping off the 2.5% of low values and 2.5% of high values introduce significant experimental bias.

The problem with group size, or extreme deviation, is that it is heavily biased by outliers. Think of the relative standard deviation measurement vs. group size. I put 99 shots in a target that you could cover with a dime, but the 100th shot goes a foot wide. Using a foot as the group size seems to reject a huge amount of information in the other 99 shots.

Of course if I'm going to a match with the ammo with bent pellets, then I just don't want to discard the "anomalies." There are not any do-overs in a match - or a hunting trip. So there could be two questions. (1) How good does his ammo shoot? (2) Does this batch of ammo have any more "anomalies" than usual? The second question goes into non-parametric statistics which is an
entirely different discussion. But the question can be analyzed statistically.

The important thing about discarding outliers, is to have decided beforehand the method to be used to treat outliers. You don't take the data and then try to figure out how to get rid of the observation(s) that you don't like.

The whole discussion about outliers is significantly "religious." It depends on what assumptions you make about how and why the outliers are present. Generally you just state these assumptions without absolute proof that the assumptions are valid, hence the endless go round about if the treatment is valid or not.

 
At September 27, 2009 11:45 PM, Anonymous Volvo said...

Walther LG 55 update…

So after my playing with JM heavy tar took H&N Match down to 500 fps, BB felt it would break back in to 510 fps. Wrong, it went to 510.6 fps. Okay, so he was really close. Not being able to leave well enough alone I got back in there and cleaned just about everything out. While it no longer makes that sweet thunk, it is back to what I think par is for the rifle.

Since I had the scope off I put her on the scale again. Follow the link to see what she weighs. Sorry about the low tech scale, but it still works. There is also a picture of all the non-essentials taken off the rifle on the scale.

Accuracy wise the target shows the challenge of three shot groups, especially on regular paper. They were shot indoors at 40 feet. The little dashed blocks are ¼ inch size and one inch is marked at the top in the middle as a reference, and the red circles are ½ inch. The CPL heavies are the worst and the Silver Bears are nice but shoot to a different point of aim. I will try the JSB’s, FTS, and H&N match at 45 yards as soon as I can.

http://s406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/chrismel_02/

Volvo

 
At September 29, 2009 9:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On that old TS-45 article from 9/25/09; you did not mention the SKS-style front sight. It has the horizontal and vertical adjustment.

And as far as accuracy, I can hit a soup can at 50 feet 8 times out of ten from a sitting position, iron sights, and using the artillery hold.

Actually, until this article, I didn't even know what the make of mine was! So, thanks!

 
At November 02, 2009 1:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember seeing these guns advertised many years back.

Looking at it, I'd have to say that it's the "Father" of the heavily posted "Fast-Deer" air rifle.

It has many identical features to my Fast-Deer. Accuracy on my FD was never great, despite heavy cleaning and a light recrown of the barrel.

The breech-end on mine just seems too loose for most pellets... they will just fall right back out if you aren't careful.

My .22 FD does abt 450 fps. Good for dancing cans around...

Nice and solid for the money too.

Skillet

 
At January 31, 2010 4:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a Chinese, this year, 36 years old. I am very excited to see this page, because this is my father's generation that they manufacture and production. My home in China's Xinjiang, the plant's name is called "Red Flag of Xinjiang Machinery Factory," the Chinese state-owned No. 979 Factory (the original is to create 56 military-style semi-automatic rifle factory), which accompanied the gun I had a number of memorable childhood ah, Oh, infinitely good memories ah. . . . . . I grew up playing with the gun is brought up. Until the early 90s, China's ban on personal gun ownership until all of the air guns at home have been handed over, it never touched them had. However, in my mind, this gun is my eternal love and dreams.
I remember in my middle school, I heard that the factory production of air guns are exported to the United States, and everyone is very happy about it. Because it can be recognized by foreign customers, this is our glory. I know that this gun factory our prices are 28 dollars one, until the last because of China's domestic prices of steel and other raw materials only after the cessation of exports (which is the early 80s things).
Do you know why this gun is called the TS model do? This is the abbreviated spelling words, because our factory in China's Xinjiang Tianshan Mountains are the highest mountain here, so models with names such as TS, 45 because it is a 0.45mm caliber of the gun.
Later, the U.S. buyers because of the cost of procurement is no longer only an air gun, the Chinese government control over private citizens can not have air guns, so we plant began to shift production to manufacture petroleum machinery and agricultural machinery for a living. Therefore, the plant life very difficult.
Until 1995, the factory closed down closed down. Was sold to private individuals, of 500 million yuan, and this is one of several thousand workers, makers ah! Thought here is really very, very sad. My father, they have dedicated their youth to the old man of this plant. There are many workers, a third generation to work in the factory, from the grandfather, father to son. On the red flag factory, me and my generation are all very deep feelings. Until now, and my father (he has 65 years of age) against the Red Flag plant closure thing, he always face the tears. That is very, very deep feelings ah. When he was young when (18 years), to this plant, then, this plant is also full of sand, nothing, they build their own plant, installation of machines and equipment. Entirely with their own hands and build up the factory. Now it went out of business.
Although no longer have this gun, but the longer see its photos. Already very satisfied. I told my father, let him look at this web page, he is very excited, happy and proud.
Once again thanks, really, very, very grateful. If you have more photos on this gun's enough.

My E-MAIL is davidlixpeng@263.net, welcome to e-mail discussion on this gun. He was never in my life is difficult to forget the good memories.

 
At January 31, 2010 6:04 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

David,

I will take more photos and send you a link so you can see them. It will take me a day or two.

B.B. Pelletier

 

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