2009 NRA Annual Meetings and Exhibits

by B.B. Pelletier

Every year the NRA holds its general membership meeting in a different major U.S. city to allow a portion of their 4 million members to attend. A trade-show exhibit is held in conjunction with these meetings to allow manufacturers of guns and related products to showcase their wares to the public. Admission is free to NRA members, and non-members can attend for a small fee. This year’s show was held in Phoenix.

While the space in the exhibit hall is only about one-fifth the size of the SHOT Show, the attendance is almost triple. I’m sure the NRA set a new record for attendance this year. The Phoenix Fire Marshall actually stopped people from entering the exhibit hall on Friday, the first day, because he felt the hall was over-crowded. They held things up for 45 minutes, all the while more people were walking in the front door to register. When they saw the situation was going to get worse, they opened the hall once more. And Friday wasn’t the busy day! On Saturday, a significantly larger crowd attended.


This is about one-quarter of the display floor. Late afternoon, when the crowd had died down.

One super thing about this show is the airgun range. Anyone can buy a ticket to shoot a wide variety of airguns–both rifles and pistols–on this range. The range opens before the show does, so several hundred earlybirds can have some fun while they await the opening of the exhibit floor.

In the past, the NRA has concentrated on having 10-meter guns on the range, because that’s their major focus with airguns. But Pyramyd Air took over sponsorship of the range this year, and there were all sorts of different sporting airguns–including a couple big bores that were demonstrated periodically. All U.S. dealers were invited to attend and several actually did. You could have shot a Marauder or an FX Royale or gulp–the EDGE!


The airgun range was popular all day long. This is a quiet time, believe it or not.


This lucky young lady dragged her father to the airgun range just to shoot the new AirForce Edge.

I spent a lot of time at the airgun range, because that’s where I can see the public’s reaction to airguns. This year, there was a special experience in store. I saw a blind man shoot a 10-meter target! Yes, the NRA has long had a special program that reaches out to disabled shooters, and there aren’t many disabilities they cannot overcome. Vanessa Warner is the NRA manager of Disabled Shooting Services, and she was on the range helping people learn to use the special equipment her group makes available around the country. While I was there, she helped a shooter whose aneurism had caused stroke-like symptoms.


He’s blind, yet he shoots. Thanks to NRA manager Vanessa Warner’s special equipment and coaching, this sightless shooter is able to hear the target and to hit the bullseye! This scene was shown on the local FOX nightly news. Rifle is an FX Royale. Photo provided by the NRA Blog.


This shooter was in an electric wheelchair and had difficulty with upper body strength. Thanks to a special gun rest, he shot this group with an FX.

And they didn’t limit the age of the shooters. One young fellow couldn’t have been more than five, yet he shot everything he wanted, which included the Edge, a Gamo Big Cat and a Talon.


His feet don’t reach the floor, but there wasn’t an airgun he couldn’t shoot.

At noon, 2 PM and 4 PM every day of the show, Chris Lieb of Pyramyd Air demonstrated a Dragon Slayer to the public. The range was cold and all eyes were on him as he explained about the .50 caliber rifle. To demonstrate the gun’s power, he blew up an apple and a 2×4 downrange. Chris passed around a .50 “pellet” for everyone to examine.


Chris Lieb aims for an apple with the Dragon Slayer. Everyone paid attention!

The exhibit floor was set up similar to the SHOT Show, only the booths were much smaller. I made it to all the airgun exhibitors and to a lot of accessory exhibitors, as well. Hopefully, there will be one or possibly two new lines of optics coming to Pyramyd Air soon, and the features on them are unlike any you’ve seen thus far.


My home off the range was the Pyramyd Air booth.


Crosman is almost ready to bring out the new Challenger PCP, which will be either a 10-meter rifle or, in different trim, a field target rifle.

I bought several exciting things at the show that Pyramyd Air doesn’t stock (but I wish they did!). Maybe I’ll show them to you next week–if you like.

The show ended on Sunday after, what I feel, must have been a record turnout. While riding on the Phoenix Light Rail, I listened to the conversations of folks who didn’t attend the show and heard some heartwarming comments in support of gun ownership. Of course, this was in Arizona, which is still a free state.

Many of those who attended were carrying weapons, and not all were concealed. The buzz of the show was the action taken by Montana’s governor, who defied the federal government on gun ownership on May 7. Basically, all federal laws were declared null and void for guns, silencers and ammunition made in Montana and sold and used there. There is talk that if the feds intervene, Montana may vote to secede from the union. Texas is primed to follow for this reason as well as some others. So the anti-gun movement may now come to realize how the citizens of this country feel about their actions.

111 thoughts on “2009 NRA Annual Meetings and Exhibits

  1. Has there ever been any attempt to teach the blind how to defend themselves with a handgun? I’m wondering if it’s possible for a blind person to home in on a bad guy that was verbally threatening him at close range.

    I know this is fraught with potential problems. The shooter could not judge the seriousness of the threat and could not excersize any sort of caution as to where the bullet will go if he misses his mark. Although I’d think that this second issue would apply to a lot of people in a tense, self-defense situation.


  2. BB, those two man, the one in the electric wheel chair and the blind man, aren’t they holding a FX (Cyclone and Royale), I don’t believe they are Daystate’s.

    With kind regards,

    Bart





  3. I found several searches over the internet. [perhaps a bit depressing that] I couldn’t find a well-known NEWS site that had anything on it. Do you know of a news site running a story on it? From what I’ve seen, it takes effect in October, so maybe we’ll see news by then. JP


  4. Snopes has a comment on it for those interested in another interpretation of this new Montana law:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/montana.asp

    Boy, it’s depressing seeing all those target shooters’ great results at the airgun range compared to my feeble attempts while shooting offhand. Great fun and tons of enthusiasts there all having a grand time. I had to instruct my particular range master on how the Crosman Challenger loaded as he was unfamiliar with the bolt arrangement on the 10M rifle as well as the rifle itself. Well, at least I hit the target.


  5. B.B.,
    I don’t know if I am allowed to advertise on this blog for a company but I wanted to let your readers know about TKO muzzle brakes. I recently purchased a Benjamin Discovery to get into the PCP world and I was shocked at the noise level of the rifle and found I couldn’t use it for backyard shooting. I purchased a 6.5″ carbon fiber brake from TKO and my Discovery is now quieter than my daughter’s pink Pumpmaster 760. Just thought I would pass along the info. and tell you how amazed I am at the sound reduction for those who have the Discovery or can’t afford or wait for the Marauder.


  6. Does anyone know anything about the Prometheus Dynamic SN1 7.95gr pellets. They seem very different to the conventional pellets. BB, Please, please do a review on them.



  7. I was impressed with the range at the convention. In addition to the many different guns, there were many different types of targets, also, in addition to paper. I didn’t see any moving ones, however. I wished they were all paper so I could compare accuracy but even then accuracy was near impossible anyway because the tables were rather shaky and other shooters and assistants were bumping them a lot. At least that’s my excuse and I’m sticking with it. However, the range was very well managed and the range officials were very helpful and courteous. They weren’t very knowledgeable about the air guns at their station but they were very safety conscious and provided one-on-one assistance. Most of them didn’t know the name of the rifle I was about to shoot so I suspect they were general volunteers with firearm safety training and not airgunners themselves.

    I did shoot the Edge and like it very much. It looks better in person than in the catalog photo. It was very light yet well balanced. I was able to hold it steady off-hand and shoot rather well. The target was spinners at 10 meters, that I had no trouble hitting. I’m trying to figure out why I would want one since I won’t be competing and I have a Talon SS, but I do want one. It does have an unusual cocking system, however. The lever has to follow an oddly shaped arched channel. One comment was that it might be a safety feature. The pellets load like a Talon. The cocking opens the breech about an inch or so and the pellet is manually inserted into barrel. I didn’t get a chance to see them re-charge it.

    -Chuck


  8. Why can’t they ever hold these things in south east Michigan.
    Ive been wanting to go to both the SHOT and NRA shows for several years now, but they’re never close enough to ware I can just take an afternoon off and go.

    I hope you had fun BB.


  9. As promised, this report is in response to Mr B's request from yesterday regarding chrony results of my Steroid 392. I didn't have a chance to research how other folks have collected their data, so first I'll give an explanation of my methodology.

    Conditions: No wind, 65 degrees F, about 150 feet above sea level

    Gun: Benjamin 392 w/ Mac-1 Steroid and Extended billet, less than 2 yrs old

    Equipment: Shooting Chrony F1 w/ lights and printer

    Pellets: Crosman Premier Domed, sorted/weighed 14.34 grain to 14.36 gr (what a time-consuming process that turned out to be!)

    The muzzle of the 392 was maintained at a position one foot from the chrony.

    I ran a series of 5 shots at each pump level. I know BB uses ten shots for many of his reports, but I didn't have enough pellets of the same weight (out of my box of Premiers, the weights ranged from 14.02 gr to 14.56 gr). To keep this from becoming a report of biblical length, I'll just report the average, high, and low, all in feet per second, along with muzzle energy, as calculated using the average velocity in Pyramyd's formula, in ft-lbs:

    5 pumps: 616.24 620.38 613.09 12.10
    7 pumps: 692.11 700.76 681.77 15.27
    9 pumps: 754.79 758.55 748.79 18.16
    11 pumps: 795.51 798.00 793.30 20.17
    12 pumps: 806.89 812.03 801.44 20.75
    13 pumps: 825.57 833.10 822.96 21.72
    15 pumps 848.41 853.24 843.14 22.94

    At this point, I'd used up all the 14.34 -14.36 grain pellets, so the rest I ran using Premiers weighing 14.38 grains:

    6 pumps 656.80 662.34 648.43 13.75
    8 pumps 722.20 726.89 707.97 16.62
    10 pumps 766.68 770.03 764.78 18.73
    14 pumps 833.53 836.96 829.90 22.14

    Notes:

    I haven't tried to quantify the pumping effort, but subjectively: The pumping effort begins to get stiffer at 7 pumps, and is noticeably harder by 10 pumps. After 12 pumps, much more so. Not easy, even with the extended billet. I wouldn't expect an average youth under 14 or so to be able to pump this gun all the way to 15 pumps.

    My gun had air remaining on shots of 13 pumps or more. All the numbers reported above were starting with an empty gun, meaning that after each 13/14/15-pump shot, I then fired again to empty the gun before pumping for the next recorded shot. Just out of curiosity, after my last 14-pump shot I put another 14.38 gr pellet in the gun and fired it through the chrony. The 'left over' air was enough to produce 314 fps.

    I personally don't often use more than ten pumps, and eight is the norm for my typical close-range (< 25 yd) pigeon abatement.

    I no longer have a stock 392, and didn't have a chrony back when I did, so no chance for 'before and after' numbers – sorry. The Pyramyd page for the 392 lists the stock 392's velocity as 685 fps, although not what pellets were used to get that number. Assuming that the same 14.35 gr Premiers could deliver that velocity, the muzzle energy would be 14.96 ft-lbs.


  10. Addendum to my Steroid 392 chrony results:

    This was inspired by comments yesterday from DB, Wayne, and Matt61.

    I also have a .22 Discovery that I got from Mac-1. Tim does some mild prep work on the Discos he sells, but what specifically he does, I don’t know – I only have vague recollections about the trigger, crown, and valve. My Disco is approaching a year in age, and doesn’t exhibit any noticeable leak-down while it’s put away – which can be for as long as a month. I usually leave it pumped up to 2000 lbs so that I can pull it out and shoot without first pumping it up. And yes, I do pump it up: I use the Benjamin pump that’s sold with the gun. Tim at Mac-1, by the way, is not a big proponent of the hand pumps, as he feels that you’re also pumping moisture from the ambient air into the gun, which would not be an issue with a scuba tank or similar source.

    For comparison, I also shot my Disco through the crony, using the same methodology as for the Steroid 392, with two exceptions: Temperature in the hangar this morning was 60 degrees F, and the Premier Domes were in the 14.30 to 14.32 grain range. Starting with the gun filled to 2000 lbs on the pump and gun gauges, I ran a series of 30 shots. after which the gauge on the gun was down to just above 1000 lbs. It took 60 pumps to refill the gun to 2000 lbs. The first shot gave 835.05 fps (22.16 ft-lbs), and was followed by a steady climb peak at Shot #14, at 857.65 fps (23.38 ft-lbs). That shot and the next four were all above 850 fps, after which it started falling. Shot #23 roughly matched Shot #1, at 834.19 fps. Each shot after that showed a loss of about 10 fps from the one before; by Shot #30, it was down to 785.52 fps (19.61 ft-lbs). For the whole run, the Disco averaged 835.35 fps (22.18 ft-lbs).

    Since I already had the crony out, I thought I might as well do a short run with my .22 Super Streak, which I got from Pyramyd around the first of the year (that’s a whole ‘nother story for some other time). Mac-1 doesn’t deal with the Chinese-made Benjamins. As with the Disco, methodology was the same, except by now I was running low on pellets and so the Premier Domes ranged from 14.38 grains to 14.42. I used 14.40 for the muzzle energy calculator. Average over five shots was 883.48 fps (24.96 ft-lbs). The low was 871.99 fps (24.32 ft-lbs); the high 887.46 fps (25.19 ft-lbs).

    My overall impressions of the three are that the Steroid 392 is the nicest to shoot if you aren’t the one who has to pump it up each time. The Disco ‘feels’ a little bit lighter to me (I haven’t weighed the guns, nor have I checked the specs), and pumping the Disco with the hand pump is immensely easier than pumping the 392/Steroid. Nonetheless, the Steroid is still my go-to gun, because its pump is built-in, and no other equipment is needed to keep shooting (just strong arms and some patience). Like the Disco, I store mine pumped up, usually with five pumps. BTW, any 392/397-series gun (Steroid or not) should be stored with a couple of pumps in it; BB, Mac-1 and Pyramyd all make this recommendation.

    While it’s more powerful than the others, the Super Streak is, in my opinion, not a very pleasant gun to shoot. It’s a long and heavy beast, not at all suitable for plinking. I’ve got a trigger kit to put in mine, but that’s not its only weak point. I’m not an airgunsmith, but compared to the American-built Benjis, the SS seems less-well built, and I don’t particularly like the gun. Sorry this ran so long, but once I got started . . .

    Best wishes to all for a safe and happy holiday weekend -

    CV



  11. B.B.

    Fascinating report about an event with like-minded people. Is this one of the events where you can pay for a gun on the spot and walk away with it? How do people get around the 10 day waiting period?

    Interesting to see the bipods on the 10 meter guns, and the mystery of the Crosman Challenger continues. So, maybe a field target version is possible after all. However, I don’t see that it offers any advantages over the Marauder.

    I don’t recommend seceding from the Union. The Civil War is an area of professional interest for me, and the results for secessionists were particularly ugly.

    The blind shooting is quite astonishing. There’s a martial arts teacher who was blinded on a tour in Vietnam as a Marine but who apparently practices and teaches martial arts (WWII style combatives) at a high level. That I can sort of see using sensory cues of sound and touch close in, but how you could hit a distant target while blind is a mystery to me.

    Captain Vector, thanks for your comparisons. Pumping a PCP is one of its most unattractive features to me. However, the easy pumping of the 2000 fps Marauder and Discovery negates quite a bit of the problem



  12. CV,
    Thanks for the data and evaluation.

    BB,
    Thank you for sharing first hand experience of the NRA event.

    All,
    Write to the Governor of Texas and Montana. Leaders with a backbone deserve our support – they are rare and must be supported when they are found.

    DB


  13. Been shooting the 953 for two days now. Today though I mounted a Leapers 3-9 BugBuster (nice little scope). This made it much easier to test hte quality of the gun.

    At 10 yards it was a single hole puncher. No fliers. Using CRP heavies.

    But at 20 yards it created a vertical string about 1″ long with the occasional very low shot. So that big velocity seen on the chrony really shows up at 20-yards and at 30 yards forget about it. It is just a can popper and hitting the can is a challenge.

    Need to find a way to settle down the velocity. Any suggestions?

    DB seen on the chrony really shows up at 20-yards and at 30 yards forget about it. It is just a can popper and hitting the can is a challenge.

    Need to find a way to settle down the velocity. Any suggestions?

    DB

    p.s. After I use the new Leapers 3-9 BugBuster and 3-12 Mini Swat I’ll let you know. Have only shot with the BugBuster the 3-12 is going on the Disco this weekend.


  14. DB,
    Try some JSB Exact 8.4. My 953 is not consistent with CPH domed 10.5, but is very accurate with the JSB. Next is R-10 Match 8.2.

    However, I can’t shoot beyond 10m. No room. Don’t buy a JSB can, but if you have some, I’d really like to know how they work beyond 10m.

    The CPH’s are my pellet of choice for my Talon SS. It loves them.

    -Chuck


  15. Chuck,
    Yep the JSB Exact 8.4 in 177 is on my next PA order. But do not have any in my locker today.

    Just does not seem there should be such a difference. But… I guess there can be.

    I do have several other choices in 177 to try that are in my locker. Gamo Match Diabolo 7.72gr was tested this morning and they are not not the pellet for this gun.

    Don’t get me wrong at 10 yards this gun is great… just was hoping to stretech it to 20 yards if possible.

    DB


  16. All,
    Since it is Friday and no one started an off the wall topic….

    Found the perfect trick pellet. Use Skenco with the metal part removed. Load it in backward and fire over the Chrony. The 953 shoots the plastic pellet at 750fps. Bet it would only travel a few yards but dang that is fast.

    If they made a biodegradable version of a plastic pellet it might be a fun bug busting pellet. Shooting fast and hard but only for a few yards… humm…

    DB
    ps. Word verification: winsoms – Win Some Loose Some


  17. DB,
    I want to shoot beyond 10m myself some day. Unfortunately I can’t afford a backhoe right now. I’m hoping to learn something from you. My gun shoots around 460fps +- 5 fps. I don’t think it can handle the 10.5g pellet weights. It seems to like stuff in the 8.n range.

    -Chuck


  18. My two cents re talk of Secession. 13 states tried it in 1861. All those states are part of the United States today.

    –Witt


  19. Guys:

    Take the word of the historians: The last people who tried secession found it didn’t work out so well.

    The point of contention in 1861–which was slavery, no matter what the modern southern patriots try to tell you about “states rights”–was a heckuva lot more important than whether you can have a fully auto AR-15.

    If you want to defend what you think may be taken from you–and I don’t agree that there is much danger–stick to rational arguments and lobbying in Washington and forget the threats to seceed.

    I don’t think you can argue successfully that real Americans should leave the rest of the country if they disagree about having some control of guns.

    Real Americans are those guys and gals in the Middle East who are fighting the real villains and the real threats to our country. Anyone who wants to abandon them has a pretty shallow faith in the U.S.

    Besides, there are now enough western “blue-steel” Democrats in Congress that the NRA has nothing to worry about, and all the fear mongering and ammo hoarding is just weak-minded nuttiness. You guys have more votes now that you did under Bush/Cheney, and you haven’t lost a contest in Congress in a long, long time. Didn’t you just get the freedom to carry loaded weapons in Yellowstone and the Castillo San Marco and all those other parks?

    I have probably sealed my fate on the blog with these comments, but at least I can sleep tonight instead of letting my mind churn over what I should have said.

    PurcHawk


  20. “There is talk that if the feds intervene, Montana may vote to secede from the union. Texas is primed to follow for this reason as well as some others. So the anti-gun movement may now come to realize how the citizens of this country feel about their actions.”

    All the worries this country has, and they are threatening to secede over a felon gun rights squabble? What warped priorites. The men who died on the Normandy beaches are dishonored by treasonous secessionist talk. Our heavy obligation to them is to figure out how to stay together as UNITED States.


  21. CV,

    Great report!!

    A report like that is lot’s of work!.. I know..

    Your Disco has the same valve lock issue as the three I had.. but I quickly learned to adjust my aim point to compensate.. so really 30-40 pretty good shots are a reality.. as B.B. has said a lot..”get to know your gun”..

    or… only fill to that 14th shot level… or some combination of the two..

    It seems a Condor/Talon type PCP with a removable tank, so you can carry a spare tank.. is a perfect compromise for hunters who hunt far from their car and can’t go back to fill..
    I think Daystate and FX make some removable tank mulit-shot models too..

    Wayne


  22. PurcHawk,
    Ya done good! Sleep tight! To talk of seceding is silly. To secede is even sillier. I think these polits are on ego trips.

    (but if anyone could do it I think Montana could before Texas. There, the gauntlet is thrown)

    -Chuck


  23. Wayne,
    To add to that, I would think carrying an extra tank, or two, for that matter, would be preferable to carrying a pump (except for the extra $170 per tank cost).


  24. Wayne and CJr,

    Re, carying an extra tank, or two, while hunting/plinking with your AiForce gun is one way to go. Tim said, maybe in the Yellow, easy to say, but it’s tough to get both tank’s valves to work alike.

    To one and all,

    Texas and Montana are talking states rights. If a state, California for example, gets bailed out they’ll be treated like GM in alot of ways.

    President Clinton signed a draconian gun control treaty through UN about gun control that was never ratified by the Senate. But it’s still out there and President Obama has given it support in a speech or two. Remember, as a State and US Senator, President Obama had a 100% anti gun record!

    Mr B.


  25. Captian Victor,

    Thank you again for your chronny numbers and all the work that went into doing them. Seems to me at a 392 on Steroids with the extended billet needs to be in my collection.

    Mr B.




  26. Vince
    I’ve heard about blind people being
    taught self defense with body,staff,
    knife and sword etc.but not with a distance weapon!Wouldn’t it be great if something like this can be learned!
    490 update:My perception is that the trigger is getting better and everything else seems smoother as well,my groups are also smaller most of the time :).

    DB
    I still don’t have a chrony so can’t tell you the numbers but my 953 w/powerline 3-9×32 does small 1 holers at 10 yds.and the single holes get bigger the farther I shoot.I only rarely punch paper but the CPHP in the tin 7.9 gr. I think,do pretty well with only an occasional flyer(that could easily be me).I think the lighter pellets do well in these rifles,Gamo Match might be a good choice but remember wadcutters at low speeds may spread a bit more at longer
    targets just my .02

    Purchawk and others
    I doubt that you’ll get much flak
    for having a different opinion on
    this site,if you give respect you normally get respect around here.
    I’ve been guilty on here of not being a good person and made up my mind not to let it happen again!
    People get different info in
    a lot of different ways,and then have to interpret that info for themselves.Some have different
    priorities for what they can live with.The old saying goes
    AMERICA Love It or Leave it!
    I believe some folks are considering leaving while they still have some good feelings for
    their neighbors and before it’s too
    late.AS for secession I think it
    should be a last option and not used as a threat or bargaining
    point.I’m still undecided but
    events and trends in government
    are causing me to lean toward leaving. I don’t think it will come to that for any of us and I truly hope not but a lot of people are in a wait and see mode.
    again just my .02

    JTinAL


  27. Steve and Purchawk and all
    After re-reading your posts I’ll make one more set of
    comments and then I’ll shut up for a while.
    The soldiers you mentioned all took an oath
    to defend the Constitution against all enemies
    foreign and domestic,so I don’t see how trying to
    keep those rights at any cost is dishonoring those people.
    In fact it’s more like honoring their sacrifices.
    The problem as a lot of people see it is that
    WE THE PEOPLE have allowed the federal gov. to become
    too large and powerful.Now that gov. tries to
    step around,ignore or distort the laws it should
    be upholding.The Constitution is not something to
    interpret.Every word should be taken literally as intended.
    Anyone who doesn’t believe that will never convince me otherwise.
    If that means that those who want to live by those laws
    and the responsibility they bring ultimately have to
    seperate themselves from those who don’t….
    SO BE IT!

    but as I said I truly hope it never comes to that.

    JTinAL


  28. Josh,

    It says:
    “DAN WESSON ARMS”
    “357 MAGNUM CTG.”

    “DAN WESSON ARMS”
    Monson, Mass. USA.
    111333

    It has a real nice large tiger stripe wood grip and an 8″ ribbed barrel..

    Excellent bluing, no scratches and only minor dings on the grips..

    I really like to shoot it with .38 special… ( I know I’m building up a ridge in the magazine).. I won’t be shooting .357 mag ammo very often.. if ever.. This is my fun cowboy gun.. and .38 special is pretty potent round anyway.. I’ll keep a few .357 mags at the ready when deep in the woods or YOUR city .. not mine..:):)

    I’m not going to comment on the political debate today.. I got in trouble last time I did!!

    Only to say that Oregon is probably the most independent state of the Union.. one of only two that doesn’t have a sales tax.. and has almost as many registered independents as donkeys and elephants..
    .. and we can buy as many guns as we want in 20 minutes.. if your not a convicted felon or a wacko..

    Wacky appears to be ok.. cause they let me buy a lot!!!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  29. JT,
    Wear that 490 trigger in as long as you can stand it, then put M2M (moly) on it. Nice and light, and never any creep:).

    PurcHawk,
    No argument or disrespect from me — talk of secession is a bad state of affairs.


  30. BB, back in your report about the superstreak, when you say your rifle liked to be balanced on your fingers, do you mean only your finger tips are holding the rifle?


  31. “Kimber government .22LR Target” report..

    Since I missed the range on my last supply run, I just went out to the firewood box units.. (4×4′x3′ raised beds bins full of firewood blocks) stacked 4 bins high four rows deep.. (plenty of backstop I felt)..

    So at 60 yards siting in the field target position with the 10.75 lb walnut beauty nested in my left elbow on my knee.. (no knee rest like most of the FT air rifles).. Now I know why you guys said a 10 lb rifle was a good thing in target!! She just laid there.. heart beat, who cares.. barely could lift her..
    I had put a Tasco 8-32×44 on her and sighted her in the other night indoors..
    I started with the Mexican “Golden Eagle” Target.. I think they must be slower than the sound barrier, because they are so quiet! The Winchester Target are much louder and 1″ higher at 60 yards..

    Both grouped very well, but the Golden Eagle did a little better and they didn’t go through the 2×6 lumber hard knots I was shooting at… I made a nice pile of lead on a 3/4″ knot with 8 shots, 12 with in an inch!!
    Matt61, Thanks so much for mentioning Kimber so many times here.. When I heard that name, and “saw her standing there”.. It was love at fist sight.. now.. she may sleep close by:)… just kidding honey:) ..Wow is all I can say.. and that she was made here in Clackamas Oregon.. well .. made my day indeed!!!

    Nighty Knight:)

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  32. Tested several pellets in the 953 today… with the new 3-9 AO Bug Buster scope.
    Shot at 15 yards 85 degree day with light winds. Groups measured center to center. 10-shot groups.

    Super Dome 8.3gr
    1.75″ group
    433fps AVG
    8.74fps ES
    2.64fps SD
    Meisterkuglen 8.2gr
    .75″ group
    425fps AVG
    29.64 ES
    9.89fsp SD
    Gamo Hunter 7.56gr
    1.06″ group
    439fps AVG
    15.7fps ES
    5.83fps SD
    Beeman Perfect Rounds 8.2gr
    1.125″ group
    419fps AVG
    26.0fps ES
    8.60fps SD
    Gamo Master Point 7.87gr
    .62″ group
    428fps AVG
    9.44fps ES
    3.87fps SD
    Gamo Magnum Energy 7.87gr
    .62″ group
    439fps AVG
    6.48fps ES
    2.00fps SD
    Crosman Premier 10.5gr
    1.25″ group
    363fps AVG
    14.24fps ES
    4.12 fps SD

    So it looks like Gamo Magnum Energy pellets might be a good choice for this 953. Will have to wait for JSB Exacts to test them.

    DB


  33. Also got a few tins of Beeman Kodiak 21.1G 22 pellets to feed the Disco. Hooya those babies are nice.

    Clean and prelubed. Load easy and really stay on target. The also generate 23ft-lb of engergy at the muzzle.

    But the most inportant thing is they hit the aim point every time. No fliers out of 50 shots. Way better than the JSB 15.9gr I’ve been shooting.

    It just feels totally different shooting that heavy pellet. If you have a Disco get some heavy pellets.


  34. BGFarmer
    Thanx,I had forgotten about the moly,
    but now that you’ve reminded me:)
    didn’t you say you could tell me how
    to apply it without teardown?

    JTinAL


  35. Everyone
    what would you say is the max distance for taking:squirrel,rabbit,
    and raccoon with a 20gr.at about
    +or- 500 fps.~11 fpe I think.
    Provided head shots can be made at
    xx distance?

    thanx

    JTinAL



  36. DB.

    Not just any heavy pellets.. you just named the best one I’ve found..(“Kodiak extra heavy”) either the 10.6 .177, or the 21.1 gr .22 cal…
    They’re the best heavy pellet I’ve found and the one that shows up best in many guns with the most foot pounds at 50 yards, as well as the muzzle!!
    .. and on top of that it’s the most accurate for the guns that shoot over 850fps or so.. 900fps for sure.. the only one that’s half accurate over 1,100fps that I’ve found!.. but they do best at 900fps or so..
    At least that’s what I’ve found..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  37. JTinAL,

    That’s about what my Mendoza RM-200 .22 cal did… maybe the RM-200 did a little more.. but 20 yards is tops, I’d say.. 15 more likely.. and have a second shot ready asap..

    Wayne


  38. Wayne you join the dan wesson forum- http://www.danwessonforum.com

    My revolver (dan wesson 14 .357 magnum) reads the exact same thing (serial # 40950)
    Revolvers from Monson Massachusetts were produced from ~1970-1990′s I believe.

    If yours has adjustable sights it’s a model 15 (target)- if it has fixed sights it’s a model 14 (service)

    Have you changed your barrel on yours Wayne?


  39. Josh,

    It has adjustment screws on the rear sight… but I haven’t needed to adjust it!!.. She is right on!

    No, I haven’t done anything to it!! I found her at a pawnshop, took her to the range and quickly learned to love her and got accurate fast with her.. I really do better with her than the marlin 336c 30/30 with open sights at 50 yards!! Popping the 4″ clays 1 out of 4 times on average..

    I don’t have time to join another forum!.. I shouldn’t be spending so much time here… like many of you, I’d guess.. but we’re all addicted to this, just like the guns!!

    Wacky Wayne



  40. See.. It’s after 10 here, and Josh and Nate will be here at 3;30 am to go turkey hunting..
    Off to bed I bee:)

    Wayne


  41. Wayne
    thanks 15 is close to what I was thinkin but wanted more opinions
    before i started experimenting.

    DB thank you but I’m sure there are
    many here who think I’m a fool.
    oh well to each his own,I just wanted to get a popular view stated

    JTinAL


  42. JT,
    Calculations is really a Herb question. But I copied this from a Steve in NC post on the Yellow:

    TE = ME / EXP(Yards / (4000 x BC))
    Where:
    TE = Terminal Energy
    ME = Muzzle Energy
    BC = Ballistic Coefficient,
    Yards = range in yards

    BC for a CPL is typically listed at 0.023.

    Hope it helps,
    DB


  43. My 953 also loves Gamo Master Point. I have gotten amazing results with these pellets out until 18 yards. It's a consistent 1-hole group for 5 shots, usually < 0.5".



  44. Whoever asked about buying guns at the NRA Show,

    They do not sell guns at this show. Most anything except guns can be sold, and on the last day the sales are brisk, because nobody wants to take the stuff home.

    Airguns may be sold, and many are.

    The firearms at the show have all been deactivated by the removal of key parts. That’s for safety.

    B.B.


  45. Dear B.B.,

    I have a question about air pistols, is there an E-mail I can contact you at? Thanks

    P.S. Stopped by the NRA convention since I live in the area. Took a quick look at the air gun range, but the long line blocked most of my view :/



  46. Ishaq,

    I reviewed Prometheus pellets several times when I wrote The Airgun Letter back a decade ago. At that time, I could never get the pellets to live up to their accuracy claims.

    But I have seen videos of them being tested and the results appear quite good.

    Prometheus pellets are not widely distributed here in the U.S. I’ll have to look around for them.

    B.B.


  47. Thanks B.B. I’m going to be in NY for the better part of the next 4 years, where I’m not allowed to own a pistol. I wanted to continue training my shooting skills, so I thought buying an air pistol would be a good alternative. I already own a Daisy Powerline 15XT and a Beretta PX4 Storm (impulse buy!), but I’m looking for suggestions for an accurate air pistol (.177 pellets) I could use to practice shooting. I thought the Storm would be a good choice, but after reading your review, I’m not so sure anymore. I’m not very familiar with the brands and manufacturers since I’m rather new to the whole air gun thing, but I would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance!


  48. York,

    And when you say NY, you really mean New York City, right? Because you can own a firearm anywhere else in New York State, as far as I know.

    Air pistols are also supposed to be banned in NYC, but there are actually teams of 10-meter pistol shooters there who compete quietly. There are several on this blog, I believe.

    I recommend you look at the Gamo Compact and the IZH 46M. But also get a quiet pellet trap, because with these guns, the pellet hitting the backstop makes the loudest sound.

    Also you might like to read my report on 10-meter pistol shooting, since I think that is what you may want to pursue:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/08/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-7.html

    Also read this report:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/07/gamo-compact-vs-izh-46-part-6.html

    B.B.

    B.B.


  49. Thanks BB, I was just wondering what it would look like when compared to the Diabolo design, with regards to accuracy, penetration, and velocity. After asking this on many forums, the general reply I have got back was that their accuracy is just slightly less then the Crosmans,JSB,AA field(but still relatively good accuracy) and their penetration is way more. I just needed you to do a review so I could vindicate their claims. If the reviews show good results as compared to yours, then do you think that the design has changed slightly? Anyway if you do get hold of the Dynamic SN1 7.95gr then please do a review, if you have spare time.

    Hope you enjoyed the show.

    Ishaq


  50. It seems like my earlier comment never made it.

    To get a license in NY with the requirements I would need to fulfill is next to impossible, so getting an air pistol is a much better alternative. I wholeheartedly agree with the pellet trap observation; I just bought a Beeman one today and the rattle annoys everyone.

    You also mentioned the Desert Eagle by Umarex as more accurate than the Storm. Would you still recommend it with the other two? Thanks.



  51. Great blog! I should’ve gone to the show. I decided last minute to do something else and it looks like I missed out.

    I’m still VERY dissapointed with Crossman 40th year 760! (put three pumps in it as you advised last week and checked it today… no change yet).

    This is the same piece that came with the front sight at 11:00 and was shipped back to Pyramyd for a 2″ cut off the barrel and a correctly remounted front sight.

    when it does manage to lob out a pellet it’s anyone’s guess for the POI!

    three more pumps and back to the closet for next week I guess.

    DSW


  52. JT,
    Remember, even the President of the US pleases only, roughly, half the people in this country until he gets into office. Then it can go either way. Political opinions require very thick skin.
    -Chuck



  53. I say secede!!! After all, it is the UNITED STATES of America, not the Federal Union of American states. Each state is its own entity within a union, with its own laws and practices. Americans know that you have to challenge the government and that through rebellion the spilled blood of patriots and tyrants fertilizes the tree of freedom!


  54. Matt61,
    Remember saying this? “The stage is set for me to order my Savage police rifle…”

    Did you ever get it and did you ever get one holers at 100 yds?

    (yes, I’ve been prowling BB’s blogs)

    -Chuck


  55. JT – re: 20 gr @ 500fps

    Are you talking about Super Colibri’s? I shoot them out of my Marlin bolt action and have found them to be extremly accurate out to 20 yds (I haven’t shot them farther than that) and have no problem with one shot kills in the head and squirells. I’d think on a rabbit you could probably strech that out to 30 yds. Although I haven’t tried it, I wouldn’t feel to comfortable trying to take a racoon with these at any range. Just my .02

    -Aaron


  56. BB,
    Is this statement correct about creep? I think your definition is different. PA needs a correction? This is from PA’s description of the IZH-46M. Third paragraph.

    Also, it Looks like there is no left hand version. Is there a BB recommended LEFT hand version 10m pistol in that price range?
    -Chuck


  57. BB,
    Somehow the creep quote disappeared from my previous comment. Here it is:

    “The two-stage trigger is fully adjustable for first-stage travel (creep) and overtravel and second-stage pull-weight.”

    -Chuck


  58. BB,
    I think never mind on the creep question. Further research found your following comment. I believe PA published their description to match the IZH-46 manual’s description and not the general accepted one.

    “Unfortunately, take-up has been described in some owners’ manuals as creep (in the IZH 46 manual, for example). That has confused new shooters, who then cannot communicate about their triggers because their vocabulary is wrong. They may even think that a fine two-stage trigger is flawed because they can feel the first stage take-up that they believe is creep, and they have heard that creep is bad.”

    -Chuck


  59. CJr
    calculations?vee don’t need noo
    steenkin calculations:)
    seriously though just wanted some
    informed opinions cause we may have some garden raiders.I could just use
    regular RF since most folks around here shoot for one reason or another
    but why bother them at 2 or 3am when
    I could be sneaky about it.As for the squirrels a couple of them
    have been curious about our attic
    vents,that’s a nono.Since I don’t hunt anymore I guess a few of these
    critters have gotten the wrong idea
    about me:)

    Aaron
    yep,super colibris.quiet,low power
    and my Henry LA loves ‘em.Those
    conicals just don’t expand much though.I’ve got a couple bricks
    of ‘em left and they’re about all
    that’s still available without
    a looong wait.Maybe I should just
    use the CCI CB Longs I’ve got left.
    30gr.at ~750 should do the trick:)

    Have a nice Memorial Weekend folks!

    JTinAL



  60. Up to this point I have been totally uninterested in air pistols. Everything said about them in recent posts I have merely ignored. Now, for some reason I’ve become acutely interested…go figure! So extra research is needed on my part and many ignorant questions posted. I have begun the research costing several hours following convoluted links and soon will start the ignorant questions.

    To start off, my previous comments have alluded to a 10m gun in the $300 or less range.

    a) I have looked at the IZH-46M and it looks like right handed only. I am left handed. Back ordered at PA…must be a good gun.

    b) I have looked at the Gamo Compact and it looks ambidextrous but reviews say the grip is large and I wear a medium sized glove and sometime small depending on the glove. Apparently the grip can be sanded down to size but I’m not sure that’s something I can do successfully. In stock at PA.

    c) I have looked at the Daisy 747 and it has optional left hand grip pads available and gets great reviews on PA but is cheaply priced compared to the other guns and other guns seem to have better features. Raise the price $100 and I’ll buy it (ha, ha). Still can’t get past the better features of the higher priced guns. I also don’t know anything about grip size on this one. No one has commented on that. In stock at PA.

    I don’t know what else to look for. I’m thinking the 747 might be a reasonable way to start but would be willing to go “higher” if pointed in the right direction.

    -Chuck


  61. JT,
    All you have to do to moly the 490 trigger is take the action out of the stock and hold it up in a partially cocked position (don’t try this with a more powerful rifle), looking through the cocking slot you’ll see the hook on the rod coming out of the piston — that’s what engages the sear. Put some moly on a Q-tip and put it on the hook, then work it on to the sear by cocking and then un-cocking a few times. You’ll likely feel an immediate improvement, but it may take a couple of shooting sessions to get the full benefit. YMMV, but it worked great for me…I just wouldn’t do it before those surfaces are well worn in.


  62. HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!

    B.B.,

    Alot of us are biting our nails waiting…waiting for the next installment of the Marauder. Is it getting close?

    Mr B.



  63. B.B.

    I was the one who asked about gun sales at the NRA show. Thanks for the info. But I’m wondering about the broader question of how people buy guns at shows and walk away with them. How do they avoid the 10 day waiting period? Or is that rule different for various states?

    Wayne, thanks for the report on the Kimber, and nice shooting. Your groups equal what is reported for the Anschutz 1907 rested. Maybe the reports I read on the Kimber target rifle did not do it justice.

    Chuck, you certainly are doing a thorough review of the blog. The business about the Savage rifle seems so long ago although I suppose it was not really. If you read on, you’ll see that I describe the outcome in detail,
    but the quick summary is as follows. I set up a transfer of a Savage 10FP rifle with a dealer in a nearby town for a good price. But after calling to notify me that the rifle had arrived, he quietly shut down his business and
    refused to return my calls. When I showed up at the store it was shuttered. It looked like I was going to have to write off $700, and you can just imagine my feelings! The local police were singularly unhelpful.

    Finally, I got hold of the ATF who keep strict records of guns and have felony penalties for a failure to transfer and document a gun inventory when a business is closed. The agents who I spoke to, who sounded like sweet old ladies, got hold of the dealer and within the day he called me sounding very apologetic, and I got my rifle in short order. The feds looked very good on this one.

    Even after all this, the rifle has been more than worth it. Once I found the right load which was a 69 grain (.223) by Black Hills (currently sold out!), the gun fulfilled me wildest dreams. I shot numbers of sub half inch
    groups at 50 yards with four rounds; one was 0.1 inches. And I’ve put three rounds in a quarter inch at 100 hards. MOA is routine. The Leapers 6-24X50 scope was a partner in all this. The rifle has the standard synthetic stock
    that everyone complains about, and I was not using any special benchrest technique–just my airgun standing technique of the bags. As the Gunblast site says of the Savage rifles: You can spend more money, but you will not
    get more gun. I would also add that the Savage 10FP is the IZH 61 of rifles, and I could not give it a higher compliment.

    Matt61


  64. Hm, the blog doesn’t seem to accept posts that are 6 double-spaced pages long…

    Regarding secession, I think it’s worthwhile to raise a couple points in the long history of debate on this subject, so that we are not reinventing the wheel. In what follows, I am not trying to lecture, but just trying to
    be clear. The Confederacy argued at length that the right to secede was fundamental and essentially the same as what the American Revolutionaries did to England. Abraham Lincoln pioneered the response that to have a free
    society or any society at all, you cannot have formal parts of the
    organization leaving any time that they feel like it. That would relegate us to a set of banana republics perpetually fighting. You could argue the merits of the two sides forever, but as is is so often the case, force was the final determinant and Lincoln’s side won. Might was right here I
    suppose. But from the standpoint of logic, I have to side with Lincoln. I do not see how you can have a nation with chunks of it breaking of at will; that is a recipe for anarchy. That’s not to say that people should be
    entirely subject to a central authority. Individuals are free to emigrate, and one can certainly work within the political system which seems open to just about any activity. But secession, at least as a practical matter, is off the table.

    Regarding the literal interpretation of the Constitution, again this has
    been debated extensively with two main voices holding sway: the “loose” and the “strict” constructionists. The loose constructionists hold that the
    work of the Founding Fathers was so original and precious that it must be preserved in all its details. The strict constructionists hold that it is
    unreasonable to expect that anyone, even the Founding Fathers, could foresee the future. So, the best way to protect the essence of their work is, paradoxically, to be flexible about details and adapt them to changing
    circumstances. The fact that the ability to amend the Constitution was built in from the beginning would tend to support this side. I don’t suppose it is possible to resolve the issue in favor of either one or the other. The parallel with Biblical interpretation with its literal/fundamentalist tradition versus more interpretive ones is too close to ignore.

    On the subject of gun control, it seems to me that looked at from what you might call a military point-of-view, there are a couple of options. One is to fight like hell over every single issue in hopes that the outcome will be the broadest possible set of rights for gun ownership. The other is to pick what seem to be the most critical issues and concentrate your forces there. The first option, while more intuitive and reassuring in some ways, makes me nervous. It seems reminiscent of the Germans on the Eastern Front of WWII who refused to give up any ground gained and were defeated all the faster by the Soviets (although that might have happened regardless); or MacArthur’s belief that nuking the Chinese north of the Yalu River in Korea was somehow critical to American security; or the belief that the doings of what LBJ called “that little piss-ant country” of Vietnam were important to America’s defense; or how the current war in Iraq seems drifting further and further away from our national interests. All of these cases were huge commitments to things that not only were not relevant but in the end turned out to be very damaging. There could be a parallel in the dissipation of finite resources and political capital over peripheral issues of gun ownership while alienating the uncommitted public.

    If the goal is to protect the safe, enjoyable, and necessary use of guns, the more effective policy in the long run might be conserving resources for the main issues such as maintaining the considerable freedoms that already exist. I guess in view of all this, secession over the right to have a fully automatic assault rifle (if that’s the issue; I haven’t checked), seems excessive.

    Matt61


  65. Matt,
    Thanks for that rundown on your Savage. What an ordeal! Glad you came out on top. Do you know if your current dealer is going to be able to restock the 69grain Black Hills?



  66. BG
    thank you for the moly tip
    You make it sound so easy I’ll
    have to try it.It’ll be a while
    cause I don’t have any moly yet:)
    I think the local TSC stocks it.
    Don’t know what flavor they have though,is there more than 1 brand
    or type?

    Matt
    Nice write up,makes your opinion
    clear without being offensive.
    One thing to consider is that the
    States talking about secession
    are just using gun control as
    a catalyst to much broader issues.
    Automatic weapons isn’t necessarily
    that big a deal to them but too many federal regs is.I haven’t looked
    too deeply into the firearms issues
    but all that I’ve read points to
    deeper concerns that the states
    have about states rights issues.
    I’m just hoping this can be resolved as painlessly as possible
    for everyone.

    JTinAL



  67. CJr,

    I managed to purchase a Gamo Compact used for a very good price and to date, I'm more accurate with my S&W 78G! I'm still trying to figure this Gamo out. It's an older model with a serial number on the base of the handle (at the NRA show, the Gamo Gal told me that the last two digits of the serial number indicate the year of mfg. but this one ends in '36. Also, mine has a very wide gap on the rear sight while the newer ones are more narrow. Most important to you, the grips are NOT ambidextrous although I believe you can buy a set for lefty.


  68. Anonymous,

    That’s an interesting link. How accurate is his information? Have you ever verified it? My son got stoppd in NC for the “Don’t Tread on Me” bumper sticker. Took awhile though cause he’s a CCW holder there.

    For the first time in my adult life, I am afraid for and of my country.

    Mr B.




  69. JT,
    Your correct… as with amost all political fights… what is stated is not always the primary concern. Too bad they do not just speak clearly.

    It seems sometimes you have to argue one point to make another seem logical.

    On thing is for sure though. If they take away our guns we may never win another political battle.

    Matt61,
    You said much better. But I think we agree.

    DB


  70. Bg farmer,
    Sounds like you’re sporting a new Savage. Hope you enjoy it.

    As far as the off topic topic, the only right I miss is the God given one to have a burning barrel in the backyard. We were way ahead of the times as we sorted all our trash into two piles long before fancy recycling bins came out. The difference was the piles were stuff that would burn and stuff that wouldn’t. Now I’ll admit, while glass was certainly destined for the dump, there were some gray areas, like tin foil. In the end, the ashes went back into the soil and helped the garden a good bit.
    Lately, I often wish it was 1965 again.


  71. MrB
    No I haven’t verified his statements
    yet,I got there thru several other
    links of similar interest to me.
    I might check it out more after
    I look into the youtube story of a
    Catholic priest and others arrested
    for protesting B.O’s visit to
    Notre Dame.

    BG
    M2M it is then.I’ll probly add it to my next pellet order.Doubt that I’ll be usin it anytime soon cause it seems like this trigger is still
    improvin:)

    JTinAL


  72. Mr B
    As far as bumper stickers,I’ve been stopped a few times in IL. and MI.
    I guess the combo of an AL.tag and
    an NRA member sticker got their
    curiosity up.I also had F.O.P
    and local sheriffs stickers.
    Didn’t get ticketed for anything but
    sure had some heated roadside political debates:)
    The same thing happened a lot at
    weigh stations during my 18 years as a truck driver,for some reason I
    get into that kind of thing perty
    often LOL wonder why? :)

    JTinAL




  73. Mr. B.,

    I have now installed Crosman’s upgraded valve in my Marauder. I had it out for shooting yesterday when we were filming an American Airgunner segment, but I haven’t had time to test it yet. Tomorrow I drive to the Texas panhandle to hunt prairie dogs for two days, then I fly to Cleveland for the moving sale.

    I will get to the Marauder as soon as I can.

    B.B.


  74. Matt,

    The waiting period is a state-mandated thing–not a national law.

    Here in Texas, there is no waiting period.

    In Maryland, we waited 15 days for handguns. How they have to transfer private handgun sales through the state police. In Texas, one citizen sells a handgun to another and the transaction is over.

    B.B.


  75. Matt,
    The waiting period in Illinois is 24 hrs for a rifle and 72 hrs for a hand gun its strict. When they say hrs they mean to the second, too. I tried to pick up a pistol on the third day a couple hours short but no go.
    -Chuck


  76. B.B. & Matt61,

    Oregon is like Texas.. 20min phone check for buying from a store.. but citizens sell guns to each other at will!!

    You sign that you are buying the gun for yourself, when you fill out the form at a store..

    But if your like me, your always trading up in your collection… Or you just might not like the trigger or something.. so then it's cool to sell it or trade it..

    B.B. safe travels and hunting.. Have loads of fun too!!

    Matt,
    On the Kimber 82 Government .22LR. I wish I could use it for Field Target!… I've never shot anything that lays so still for me.. it's like shooting from a rest when she lays on my left arm/elbow, which is resting on my knee, while sitting in the Field Target position.. very, very solid!!..
    But what good is that if the rifle/ammo won't group? THIS Kimber 82 is a keeper!!

    I say "THIS" because… I read a discouraging review yesterday, while looking for a review for a .223 Kimber model 84..

    It seems that a fellow who worked at the Kimber factory, testing the rifles that came back, to see if they really had problems, reports that the 82s almost always were fine, especially in .22LR.

    But the model 84 was a grab bag.. some real fine, and some "POS" (his words).. again the .22LR and .223 most times were fine.. but the quality control on the higher calibers was very poor and one could get a lemon real easy..

    And the model 89 Big Game model.. forget it.. your chances of getting quality are not good!!

    He said the focus was on good looks (and those beautiful stocks were not always as dry as they should be, sometimes twisting on the barrel!).. and

    Cashflow for the company, NOT putting out a consistently quality product was the priority!!

    Damn… an Oregon co. too.. a real bummer for me..
    I hope he is lying and just a disgruntled ex-employee.. but I fear not..

    Anyway, lucky me… I got a good one!! …

    So… I'm sssooooo undecided on the custom made Kimber model 84 .223 on Gunbroker right now.. The high bid is only $820 or so..) that's way under the blue book value, and it looks perfect.. (that almost scares me now!)… only hours left to decide.. what to do, what to do?

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  77. Volvo,
    The Savage will be a bit of a project, but I think it will turn out to be a keeper.

    Wayne,
    The Weatherby Vanguards are the same Howa action that you know you already like. Also, you need to try the Browning A-Bolt, not bad and looks pretty good, too. If you can’t find a cheap Mannlicher-Schoenauer in good condition, A-Bolt would be a good choice in .30-06:).


  78. B.B.,
    which of these three guns would be the best for Informal Taget shooting, and plinking?
    Hammerli 490
    Daisy 953
    IZH 61Im trying to stay on a budget, but i want a good accurate gun i can use in online matches, and one that i can have some fun with. Thanks in advance.
    Brody


  79. BG_Farmer,

    I had heard that Howa made the Vanguards for Weatherby.. The Howa 1500 is such a great deal with a Nikko 3-10×42 side wheel focus AO included for $450 new… and I got my .223 for $375, since it had the bluing rubbed off a little from the display rack!!..

    So, the 30-06 will more than likely be a Howa 1500…

    …but I’ll be looking at the Browning A-bolt..

    actually eying one now on Gunbroker.. a “BROWNING MEDALLIAN OCTAGON BARREL .338 WINCHESTER MAGNUM NEW IN THE BOX and what a BEAUTY. GORGEOUS wood, ENGRAVED receiver” no reserve, bid now is $500.. but 10 days to go! and .338 is too much for me I fear!!

    only an hour to go on the custom Kimber 84.. still can’t decide..

    Wayne



  80. I finished reading BB's seven posts on 10 meter pistol shooting and applied what I learned on my own indoor 10m range.

    I used my S&W 586 with 4" barrel, open sights, RWS Supermags, 10 meter stance. I used the Supermags because I had a lot of them but I don't think they're right for this gun.

    I took 60 carefully aimed shots and scored an 80 with 10" groups. Not a single 10 in the bunch, not even a 9. Most of the shots were within 5".

    I got:
    five – 5's
    four – 6's
    one – 7
    three – 8's

    It's a good feeling to know I have no place to go but up!

    I really felt the strain in my left forearm. I sure wish I had that palm rest the 10m guns have. What a difference that would make! I'm left handed but I golf right handed – this will be good for my golf game. I'll bet in a week I'll knock 3 strokes off my golf game.

    -Chuck


  81. BG_Farmer,

    You’re right about mixing up the loose and strict constructionists. How embarrassing. :) I was a little distracted because a slightly longer version of my two sequential comments was bounced out of the blog and completely lost. I hadn’t realized the page limit. Serves me right for running at the mouth.

    All, regarding the secession business, I would be surprised if secession is now being contemplated by the states concerned just for certain gun rights. As I understand it, the Civil War was not really fought over slavery, even though that was the defining issue. It was fought for interlocking political and economic rights for which the Southerners adopted slavery as a symbolic issue. Anyway, I would agree that the country, the world at large, and certainly California! are very screwed up and now is not the time to think about seceding.

    Incidentally, this is a topic of interest for me because I’m writing a book about the history of the citizen-soldier in America with an emphasis on the Civil War. If I get it published, I’ll let you know, but unfortunately, I’m not able to talk a lot about firearms.

    Anyway, congratulations BG_Farmer on what I take is the Savage Mark II BV. What’s the project? It looks pretty slick as sold.

    And congratulations, Wayne, on the Kimber. Your report explains some eccentricities in Kimber’s quality control. I hear some mixed reviews of reliability about their highly-touted 1911s, and their centerfire line has never gotten the raves that were directed at the Kimber 82 series. I suspect that you got a great vintage. I expect that the same phenomenon is at work for Savage which is currently on the upswing away from the laughingstock that it was before. Let me know what kind of ammo works for you. I’ve been surveying match .22LR, and it looks like the Eley brand and the Federal Gold Medal are the top in quality. This does bring back memories of my lunatic high school shooting coach. At one point, I ignorantly reached for some match rimfire ammo that he had stockpiled for the top shooters, and the next thing I knew, he stormed up yelling and waving his arms. Well, I will get hold of match ammo in the end. :)

    Regarding the 69 grain .223 Black Hills ammo, I didn’t even bother with my normal supplier, Midway USA, since they were not accepting back orders and ordered instead from Impact Guns. At first they said 3 weeks, then months later, the guy said that it would be another two months at least. That will turn out to be 6 months if true; I still have a few weeks to wait. With this kind of demand, you figure that they will keep producing, but when it reappears is open to question. People can’t keep stockpiling forever.

    Matt61


  82. Matt,

    I figured as much about the mix-up, and I made up a new word: constructionalist, so I’m not on a high horse:). Just getting old, wasn’t even drinking:(, and it happens more and more.

    The BV did look like the most solid base, but there’s a few loose ends: the magazine protrudes below the non-recessed floorplate right where my hand needs to be when shooting offhand, and I’m a little skeptical about the free-floating job and whether I need to bed it. I was so impressed with my bottom of the line c/f that I thought the rimfire would be at the same level of functionality, but its not quite there. Nothing serious, and I’m not going to spend a lot of money on it, but it will keep me off the streets:).




  83. Matt61,

    I’ll be wanting to try some of that 69 grain .223 Black Hills ammo too…

    I went for… and got the:

    Custom ordered “Kimber 84″ .223Rem “WALK ABOUT VARMINT” SPECIAL ORDER MFG IN THE ORIGINAL “CLACKAMAS, OREGON PLANT” here is the GunBroker link:

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128857980

    The stock looks like a great fit for me.. and it’s so beautiful!!..

    It’s GOT to be a good collector.. and shooter!

    I figured since it was early on in the history of the company, maybe the quality control was better..

    and the fact that it was a custom order…

    and the fact that that model isn’t listed in the “Blue Book of Guns” per say..

    and anything similar, the “Ultra Varimter” or “Super Varminter” are about twice the price I paid..

    And .223 is my favorite cal. to shoot..

    Soooo.. I really do want to try the “Black Hills ammo now!!

    Wacky Wayne!!


  84. Wacky Wayne,

    Will the rifling in your new gun stablize a 69 grain bullet? It’s a close call unless the gun was set up for the heavy ones. May I suggest a visit to E.Arthur Brown Company and check out his single shot rifles–real shooters and lookers.

    Volvo,

    Burning barrels and sorting trash. The smell of burning leaves in the fall–the only thing I can get away burning inside the beltway around DC is meat on my grill and the American Flag which seems to be a First Amendment right–not to be confused with Miss California’s lack of the same.

    BG_Farmer,

    Enjoy your Savage. The accutrigger is wonderful. I think that dollar for dollar you cann’t buy a better rifle.

    JTinAL,

    I’d be interested in your other links of interest.

    B.B.,

    Hunting the prairie poodles for a couple of days–you’ve got a tough job sometimes boss.:)

    CJr,

    Wish I could find an air pistol as quiet as my Talon SS for shooting in my back yard. Enjoy yours.

    Mr B.


  85. Mr. B,

    If you want to cheat just a little try one of these:

    http://www.whalenco.com/

    I bought one and incorporated it around my suburban landscaped patio. No one is the wiser that now and then instead of a tasteful hardwood fire for ambiance, I revert back to my country childhood and burn some leaves or well, just anything that burns. It is best to wait until dark to hide the smoke.

    Volvo



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