Hammerli Razor – Part 4 and the BKL test continues

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Accuracy!
Today, I’m testing the .22-caliber Hammerli Razor for accuracy. This test spanned a two-day period, because I actually began last week. The first groups were not promising, and I started suspecting the scope had a problem–you know the common complaint of “scope shift”? Except that the scope doesn’t usually shift in the middle of shooting a group!

However, there was one overriding thing that helped me keep on track. The Razor is a breakbarrel, and breakbarrels can be the most difficult of all rifles to shoot accurately. Some of them are sweeties, but a few can be very cantankerous, and you never know until you try the gun.

The solution is to try modifying the artillery hold and even to try shooting directly off sandbags. A few times, the gun will actually group best right off the bag–though this was not one of them. I also tried shooting the gun off the backs of my fingers and off the open palm–and the back of the fingers won, hands down (pun intended)! But that wasn’t the only thing I had to do.

The Razor I’m shooting refused to group unless I held it with the lightest touch possible. I know that is a part of the artillery hold, but this rifle wants an exceptionally light hold. So light that I’m spending extra time explaining it to you.

What pellets didn’t work
Rather than spend extra time going over what didn’t work, I’ll just make a list:
Beeman Kodiak Double Gold
Crosman Premier
Gamo Hunter
14.3-grain JSB Exact Jumbo Express
RWS Hobby pellets

Here’s what I mean by “didn’t work.” They grouped in 1.5″ to over 2″ at 25 yards. No matter what I did, I couldn’t get these pellets to shoot to the same place every time.

RWS Superdomes
The first pellet that actually did group well was the RWS Superdome. They were a pleasing surprise, as pellet after pellet went to the same place at 25 yards. In the end, they were the most accurate pellet.


Ten .22 caliber RWS Superdomes went into this 25-yard group measuring 0.68 inches.

Beeman Silver Bear
The Beeman Silver Bear hollowpoint isn’t a pellet I usually turn to when testing accuracy, but when Crosman Premiers and JSB Exacts fail, I pull out all the stops. They stayed together until the final four shots, but I don’t blame that on technique, because I was really trying at this point.


Ten Beeman Silver Bears went into this group measuring 1.221 inches. While it isn’t anything to brag about, it looked good compared to what all the other pellets were doing.

Air Arms domes
The final good pellet I tried were 16-grain Air Arms domes. Even though they’re JSB Exacts, this is the heavier version of that pellet, and the Exact I had tried before was the 14.3-grain pellet. They grouped 10 in 0.738″ at 25 yards, the second-best of the test.


Air Arms domes shot second-best with this 0.738″ group at 25 yards.

How’s the BKL 260 mount doing?
After about 100 rounds, the tape I put to test the BKL mount for moving hasn’t budged. Everything looks exactly as it did when the mount was installed. And the groups underscore that–particularly the better ones.

One reader asked if I should also test to see whether the scope moves inside the rings. I didn’t set up a test for that because it is far less common, in my experience, than the whole mount sliding on the dovetails. I’m going to shoot another 400 shots through this rifle with the scope mounted, and then we’ll have a look at the tapes.

And the Razor?
I have to say I was less-pleased by the accuracy from this rifle. Not that it isn’t accurate, because it clearly is. But it’s so sensitive to hold that it takes real technique to extract all that accuracy. But other than that, I love the trigger and I like the general looks of the rifle. If you like it, don’t be afraid. It’s just going to turn you into a better shot.

69 thoughts on “Hammerli Razor – Part 4 and the BKL test continues

  1. BB, do you have time to shoot a few rounds open sight? My experience with break barrels shows repeatable shouldering is critical for accuracy and that most rifle combs tends to be too low for a consistent scope cheek weld.


  2. I can't take the scope off this rifle until the BKL test is complete. If I shoot it with open sights at that time, what do you think I can get?

    I'm shooting so well at 25 yards that I don't see how I can possibly do better with open sights. So my groups will be larger than these groups. What will that prove?

    As for a repeatable cheek weld, I am shooting off a bag rest. So my cheek has to be in the same position, more or less, to see the image in the scope. I certainly cannot come close to what I have done here shooting offhand at 25 yards!

    B.B.


  3. Does anyone know if some Hammerli springers share the same lineage as some of the new Noricas preparing to be offerred? The Hammerli Nova appears to be the same gun as the Norica Quick. Similarities between other guns by these two manufacutures abound.
    Thanks.


  4. Well based on your review I would not buy this rifle.

    Though it may be really accurate and make me a better shot, it may also frustrate me to the point I give up on it!

    That plus the fact that I have a Beeman R9 and a Tech Force 59, both of which shoot really well with out being overly hold sensitive make the addition of a troublesome hold gun a moot point.

    Both guns require some attention to detail but not like you describe in your review.

    Of course the R9 shoots better than the TF 59. The TF 59 has a CDT GRT III trigger installed which helped greatly, but it still is not quite up to the rekord trigger on the R9.

    BB, thanks for re-emphasizing the need to really examine hold techniques when dealing with springers. So many get a gun like this and hold it really tight to the shoulder and can't hit squat and blame the gun and return it. I used to do this before getting educated here.

    Long guns have never been my favorite, but thanks to what I learn here I not shoot them much better.

    I prefer pistols in regular firearms but very few pellet pistols have the energy needed to cleanly dispatch small game.


  5. B.B.,

    Wow does this report bring back memories. I remember sharing my experiences awhile back about the two tuned B26's in .22 caliber I bought as gifts for twin boys.

    Initially, as I had read and the tuner confirmed, the RWS Superdomes were the most accurate pellet in these guns. After I received the guns and mounted the new leapers scopes on each rifle I shot a few pellets through each gun. Superdomes were far and away the most accurate pellet. Air Arms domed pellets were second best.

    About a month into shooting their guns (at least 2 tins of pellets in each gun) one of the boys said he was having problems. He brought the gun back over to me. I couldn't put a group together with any pellet. Long story short, I tried everything, tightened stock screws, took the scope off and shot with open sights, tried more varieties of pellets, nothing nada.

    Finally got the brass brush and jb bore paste and scrubbed that barrel. Viola! Accuracy again. But this time, this gun shot jsb 18.1 gr pellets best. Still does and this is 5-6 months later. The other gun now shoots the Air Arms pellets the best.

    If it wasn't for this blog I would have thrown that gun away. Sure can learn alot here.

    kevin



  6. JTinAL,

    RE: "Our Friend" yesterday

    Thanks for the kind comments.

    The joke is on him. I already knew that I was boring 95% of BB readers. I was trying to share with the other 5% what I could bring to the table. Airguns I don't know so well. Lots more experience with statistics.

    I suggest we give our friend the Klingon "Ritual of Discommunication" and not pay him any attention whatsoever. I think he likes the buzz. Let's deny that to him.

    Just leave him for BB to handle. BB knows how to deal with trouble makers.


  7. I purchased a Gamo Shadowmatic and had the same problems as you did.
    I revewed all your articles I could find that you had written a I could never get the .177 rifel sighted in with a scope on it. I even swapped leapers scopes off other breal barrels that I have and had no luck. I even bought additional mounts [B-Square} and accomplished nothing.
    I finally put the open sights back on the gun which made it tolerable.
    If you have other things to do plese feel free to offeer them.
    Earl


  8. Earl,

    You had the same problems B.B. did in that most pellets wouldn't group or had problems mounting the scope?

    Was the scope moving? What size groups are you getting now and at what distance with open sights?

    kevin


  9. BB and Herb
    After rereading my post from last night,
    It looks like I owe an apology to you both

    My post comes off sounding like I thought
    I could or should tell you how to handle
    your business.That was not my intent.I should have reread and edited right then.
    My gut reaction to certain personality
    types has led me here before,and I'm still
    working on it.:)
    Anyway thank you Herb for taking my
    compliments the way I intended.I hope BB
    and Edith and 99.9% of the other folks here know how much respect I have for
    them.If not I'll be happy to tell ya:)

    Thanks again to BB for providing
    directly and indirectly through others
    so much info about our sport/hobby,and
    letting us come over to play.

    JTinAL


  10. Herb,

    When you, BG_Farmer, Matt61, Jane, etc get talking I am rapidly left behind, but I never fail to glean a pearl of wisdom or two from your discussions–thanks.

    For those of you who arn't interested–don't read them. However, you are also able to post that you find them boring. Good manners and civility are some of the keys to this blog's success–thanks to B.B. and Edith.

    Mr B.



  11. So I recently switched TV service providers and now have The Sportsman Channel. I've set it up to record all episodes of Ammerican Airgunner!! I've watched 3 episodes so far… The first one which I don't remeber much because I watched it at a friend's house back in July, the action pistol episode, and most recently the episode where they ask Heather to co-host the show. (No offense to BB and Paul, but that was a good move!!) I like the show, even the commercials, and I'm looking forward to how it progresses. It seems now there is a lot of introductory type of content, which I think is the right way to go, but I'll be looking forward to future episodes when the basics are out of the way. Maybe old BB can give us some ideas of what is coming up on future episodes???

    And by the way, my discovery has now knocked off 4 squirrels and 8 chipmunks. I enjoy the gun more every day. I can't believe how accurate it is, and the trigger seems to be getting better after about 500 shots or so. I haven't done any mods to the gun, although I've seen some great ideas and awesome looking guns out there, something about the discovery in it's original state that really appeals to me. PCP always seemed like such a difficult thing to get into, but with the diso it's really so simple, and I don't want to clutter up that simplicity with a bunch of bells and whistles, for what it's worth.

    -Aaron

    Word verification is "dings" as in the discovery really "dings" the targets!!




  12. B.B.

    Well you did tell me once that the artillery hold couldn't be light enough. :-)

    Wasn't your estimate yesterday of M1 velocity a little high? I thought that the optimum muzzle velocity was 2700 fps.

    All, discussion of lateral bullet flight from David Tubb!!! He claims that wind correction from 300 yards to 600 yards is one quarter minute left and from 300 to 1000 yards, one minute left. Well, this seems to put another nail in the coffin of large corkscrew pathways. If they were larger than one minute at 1000 yards (10 inches), Tubb would be talking about corrections up, down, left and right. So the corkscrew radius, if it exists, must be much less than one minute per thousand yards.

    The Tubb explanation is kind of weird. He attributes this in part to the Coriolis effect based on the rotation of the earth. I have heard of this in connection with the flight of artillery shells (and rockets) but not bullets. I suspect that the effect for pellet distances is trivial. But he also attributes the leftwards movement to what he calls the "yaw of repose from rifling." This sounds like what is associated with overstabilized bullets or Jane's nose-high spin. I thought this phenomenon affected the elevation of bullets. Why it would cause a bullet to go left is completely mystifying. I figure he either explained it incorrectly or he's a better shooter than a ballistic theorist. The upcoming chapter on ammunition might say more.

    Mr. B., it is my ambition to be as clear as possible in science an everything else. Beneath a technical surface, science is mostly common sense taken to an extreme, so I try to minimize technical jargon. If you're not understanding, it's probably not your fault. I was quite amused by an experiment run in a book called Profscam published some time ago. Researchers gave a fake identity to an actor and had him present a paper that was complete gibberish to a mathematical conference. Reviews from participants said that the paper was very deep and profound. Similarly, a physics professor sent in a paper to a refereed journal of cultural studies that was techno gibberish. It was a joke, but the journal accepted it. Needless to say, they were kind of pissed when he revealed the truth. Anyway, Einstein says, "Keep things as simple as you can–and no simpler."

    Matt61



  13. Hey BB, A while back you had a post about Vince rebuilding Markham model D BB gun. I was wondering where he got the 499b shot tube for $12 bucks. Mines got some deep scratches, possibly rust inside it and I'm thinking it should be replaced. $12 sounds like a steal to me. Thanks a bunch, Randy


  14. Herb, Jane, et al,

    I continue to subscribe to the blog comments to help out Tom. I've learned a lot, although I haven't posted any comments to that effect til now. Please continue to post, as the silent majority appreciates it.

    Edith


  15. What stokes my curiosity is what makes one break barrel rifle more hold sensitive than another? I'll accept explanations in word form only – please no formulas – I need to keep things simple for a few days :)

    Roanoke Air Gun Show is just around the corner!


  16. Too bad about the extreme sensitivity to hold on this one. Guess it's going off my list of .22 hunters. Will keep looking. Still on the list: RWS Diana 34 and 48/52. 34 is winning on cost.

    Word verification 'imperm' as in – any one of the guns on my desired airguns list is 'imperm'anent depending on B.B.'s reviews.





  17. I've understood as much through research of your blogs. What is concerning me is the extremely light hold this one requires. Your review of the new 34P describes it as less sensitive to hold than other break barrels and reports for the 48/52 sidelevers say similar.


  18. Fused, yes, for a breakbarrel the 34 is relatively insensitive. But that is for breakbarrels. The 48/52 are far more insensitive.

    And I am not trying to push you on this, but if you want one of the most dead-to-hold spring guns around, try the RWS Diana model 54! That recoil elimination system also helps deaden the sensitivity to hold.

    I know it is a stretch–heck, I don't even own one and I love them. I would get a .22 if it were me.

    The TX200 is another gun that's pretty insensitive to hold, though a 54 is more so.

    B.B.


  19. Hi Folks,

    I've been busy with the last field target event here.. and the writing of the report fro the FT forum.. and the followup comments.. and the questions I had about "match director" ism…

    So, sorry to not join in the fun for a while..

    Here's the report as posted on the forum..
    btw.. that's a fairly brutal place.. no prisoners taken.. so to speak! but very informative..

    As Kevin and others have said.. this is a very nice place to talk without getting nailed to a cross!!

    Be thankful to our hosts Tom & Edith.. and all the great folks commenting here! This is a first class place!

    Field Target shoot Ashaland Air Rifle Range 9/27/09
    By Wayne Burns, Match Director

    Attending from Northern Calif. Were John Lindsay, shooting about a 20 ft lb USFT, Marty Montinez, with a stock disco, and Ronnie Easton with his 12 ft. EV2. Our only shooter from Washington was Brent Saunders, with his HW 100 shooting about 15 ft. lbs. but he turned out to be all that state needed to kick our butts! For Oregon, Josh Collins shot our new marauder at about 16 ft lbs. with custom FT stock. I shot 12 ft. lb USFT #44.

    Other than the smoke in the air from the local fires, the day was perfect. 75 degrees and not much wind, maybe a few gusts to 7 mph but they are tricky gusts, swirling in the half walled in bowl.

    I had set up a 48 shot course, 16 lanes, 3 targets each, one shot per target. The first two lanes were prone, but if you chose to shoot sitting you could still get half a point. most chose sitting, because there were two 3/8 KZs at about 20 yards in the first lane and one ½ at 21, and one 3/8 at 24 yards in the second. Nobody got that one all day. The third targets in those first lanes were easy 1-1/2 at about 37 yards.

    The rest of the course was pretty tame. A few ½ at 18, ¾ at 20, 1 at 35, 1-1/2 at 45 to 50, but mostly 1-1/2 at 25 to 38 or so. Other than the first three lanes which were down hill, the rest of our course was moderately uphill.

    John, Brent and I shot the course twice. Remember Brent saying hell yeah, lets shoot it twice last week? well, he confessed he practices after work when he's dead tired… but I digress… let me tell you about the first round first!

    Ronnie, shot the first lanes prone, and ended up with a ½ point more than Brent and I, with 3 for 6. That ½ a point ended up getting Ronnie second place in the first round, I had 41-1/2, Ronnie 41, and Brent 40-1/2. John shot 33, Josh 28, and Marty 20. This was just their second events for both Josh and Marty. Great shooting guys and keep up the practice.

    John found out in the beginning of the second round that he had forgotten to lock down the turret on the bushy 4200.. not a good thing!

    I counted the prone lanes as sitting lanes the second time around, since we all three shot sitting. Early on, John had to pull out, with the scope issue, and I got tired and fell apart with a 35 in the second round.

    BUT DRUMROLL PLEASE BRENT SHOT 46/48 ON THE SECOND ROUND!!! and if you count the ½ points in the first round as full points.. thats 44/48 .. so a total of 90/96 in 5 hours of shooting with a quick lunch break.. (thanks to my sister, Laurie for a great lunch!)

    BTW. Brent, Ronnie, Josh, Marty and I all shot without a harness!
    Great shooting Brent!! I declare him Northwest champ to beat!!! (I know, who am I to declare anything but there you have it anyway!!! That's something to beat!..

    Great shooting all..
    It was really great to meet John, Marty, Ronnie and his friend from the North Cal. club. I hope to come shoot down there sometime soon. You guys were super fun to shoot with.

    Brent, this was our third shoot together, we've been close up till that last round.. Wow, great endurance shooting!

    ..and thanks all, for coming!! and making that long drive..

    Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range


  20. BB,
    Very strange. That much hold sensitivity and pellet sensitivity combined is worrisome. Is the bore loose (or exceptionally tight?) and do the muzzle, breech and chamber/lead-in areas look OK? If .22 Superdomes are anything like .177, they are big and soft, so can take sloppier tolerances and still conform to the rifling. Maybe the same with the AA's. I'm sure you checked all this out anyway:).

    The powerplant and seals seem beyond reproach from your velocity tests.


  21. JTinAL,

    From my perspective, no apology is needed or warranted. You said what many of us were thinking.

    Herb,

    You're over my head in the second sentence of many of your discussions but would encourage you to keep it up. The little tid bits I can understand are worthwhile.

    Fused,

    Why not a pcp? Have any of the springers you've been shooting been tuned by a reputable tuner?

    kevin


  22. A stretch to say the least! Unfortunately I'm on a strict budget until… well indefinitely, I guess. Wish I could spring (pun intended) for one though. Not to get the pcp vs springer started again, but as expensive as those two are, they would rival a nice pcp even with the pcp accessory creep in costs.


  23. Fused,

    With the introduction of the Marauder I've seen some unbelievable deals ($200.00 with pump) on used discoveries. If you can take a little noise this would be a great entrance for you into the pcp world.

    kevin


  24. Wayne,

    Great to hear that you're spending time on your FT course. That's somce impressive shooting by Brent. A new benchmark for you and the natives.

    Great write up. Those FT boys on the forum can pick your bones clean and not bat an eye. They don't suffer fools.

    Maybe you need a new gun?

    kevin


  25. Kevin,
    Vince tuned my 94 and it made a big difference. Can't say it made it more accurate, but definitely made it nicer to shoot.

    Word verification is playing games with me today. This time it's 'purge.' As in maybe I'd have enough money for a nice air rifle if I would 'purge' some of my other toys. That's crazy talk of course;).


  26. Fused,

    Wellllll…..do what I do. Tell all your friends and family Christmas is just around the corner and it sure would be nice if Santa brought me a……….

    kevin


  27. Wayne,

    How proud I am of you! Two years ago you didn't know what field target is and now you are a match director. And a great shot, from your report.

    Keep up the good work.

    And, can you even remember the Wayzy Boy?

    B.B.


  28. BG_Farmer,

    Just for you I just pushed a Superdome through the Razor barrel.

    Tight in the breech, only, then uniformly loose throughout the barrel, including at the muzzle. I think you may be onto something. A tight breech and loose muzzle is the reverse of what is needed.

    B.B.


  29. Razor AR – Maybe they put the barrel on backwards…lol!!!!

    Could it be that the pellet seals tightly for the initial launch then loosely to gain speed down the barrel? Would a pellet with a more flexable skirt or lubing the pellets help?





  30. B.B I know your probably not aware of Canadian laws… But why is the tx200 legal in Canada but the Benjamin marauder isn't ? They both have shrouds… and they're both considered firearms here.




  31. Kevin,

    A NEW GUN????

    Since the field target bug bit and the match director duties added.. I haven't shot a firearm or other air gun besides USFT#44.. for at least a couple months..

    #44 is like my left and right arms!!

    I steal away from the office and carry her down to the course any spare hour I can take.

    I've chosen a different path.. a third choice as it were..

    I'm not clicking..and I'm not using mil dots to holdover..

    The scope that I got from Billy Lo.. I had to have it when it came up on the yellow, since I got #44 from him…. a BSA platinum 10-50×60, has no mil-dots, but a clean thin cross hair with a small target dot.

    I love how clean, sharp and bright the target is on 22 power.

    It's been almost a month since I mounted and sighted it in. I haven't touched the turrets since!!
    ..or the scope power.. still on 22.

    I guess most of you remember my lesson I told about the "dark lane" .. not being able to see it at 50 power… until I turned it down to 20 power.. meanwhile I'm getting tired supporting the 12 lbs of USFT and scope! .. "skunked" the lane… as B.B. put it.

    The other reason for choosing a lower power.. field of view is much larger, allowing me to find the target quicker.

    I chose 22 power also, and I don't know if it matters or not.. but 22 yards is the peak of my arch with 8.4 JSB in the 12 ft lb. USFT #44.. or my "zero"

    The other reason I cannot change my power, is I'm using the kill zone on the target for a measuring device.

    Let's say I'm shooting a target with a 1" kz at 22 yards.. great… I can hold the cross hairs on the target dead center.. except for any wind issues..

    Now, the next target is 45 yards and 1-1/2" kz.. I wouldn't know it's 45 yards.. or care.. all I know is it's in focus or not… when it's in focus.. my taped and marked sidewheel says 1-3/4" holdover. .. so, it's 3/4" from the center of the KZ, to the top of the kill zone.. so I hold 1" over the top of the kz and allow for any wind..

    Guessing the 1" above, can be the tricky part. :).. if I weren't a carpenter by trade!!!.. or used to be in my long ago youth..

    I've had to redo the tape a few times, because I run out of room for detail in the 35 to 55 range…

    This is why, my friends.. I've been stealing away and practicing to mark and learn my own marks!!.. and not here as much..

    This may seem wacky.. (what else could you expect)…

    ..but with all the stories I read, and still see, now in person, at the last meet, with clickers forgetting they went all the way around.. or not locking down the turret, as just happened to John.. or scope failure from clicking every target.. (how much can the gears take)… Well…

    Then I think about the extra time I have.. not having to dial the turret..(as if I could see those small numbers anyway)..

    .. after I focus, I know how much to holdover on the dial, in my face, in big print….

    Then, sizing up the KZ..etc.. It's way faster.. less risk, and I get better with time..

    One has to guess the wind anyway.. why not the holdover too?

    Everybody thinks I'm crazy.. I can never get good enough to win with such a wacky method…

    just music to my ears…

    Wacky Wayne..

    MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range



  32. B.B.

    I'm really glad your proud, you should be.. you've been a huge factor in my efforts.. "A great coach" from afar as they say.

    Along with many folks here on this blog!

    This isn't work.. maybe the match directing .. but not the shooting!

    It's funny, My father-in-law favorite chair broke.. so I gave him the "Wazyboy".. He loves it and spends 12 hours a day in it.

    I'm in the sitting FT position as many hours a day as possible!!

    Wacky Wayne


  33. Kevin,

    You and everyone else!!!

    …but you don't know how that makes me try harder to make it work!!… as I suspect you know.. and are playing that card!

    In the end.. it be a great excuse when I loose.. or if I do well.. a great surprise!

    Win, win.. right?

    Wacky Wayne


  34. Odd question, but does anyone make rubber airgun pellets/balls? Or has anyone come up with a suitable substitute?

    word verification: tofend. Meaning: (verb) to offend by offering tofu….


  35. Wayne,

    You're too driven and too passionate for me to believe you want an excuse to loose. Whether it be in business or FT.

    We're behind you 100% and at the end of the day hope you have fun.

    Winning is fun too though.

    Confidentially, I'm hoping that clicking gets you on target and doping for the wind is what you spend your time learning. When that USFT becomes too easy I'm hoping you break out the AA S410 and clean their clocks with it. This is very confidential.

    kevin


  36. Vince,
    Fixed the loose front sight on the TF97. Used a hammer and cold chisel. Yikes you say.

    No didn't bang on the gun. Used the cold chisel on the role pin. Opened the gap to make the diameter of the pin lager. Then drove it back into place.

    Tight now.
    DB

    Word verification "incess" as in incessant problems.



  37. Wayne,
    You are taking names now. If you are having good results without clicking, go with it. Clicking always seemed a little amateurish to me, anyway:). Maybe there'll be a Wacky Wayne school of holdover method someday:).


  38. All,
    Just read about a pellet pen on the Yellow. Looks real cool.

    Makes loading pellets into a break barrel a snap.

    Reminds me of my black powder cap loader.

    DB


  39. Fred,

    My belief is that breakbarrels are more hold sensitive because of their lighter weight. In fact, I have not really been able to separate the two in my mind. Can you have a light springer that is not hold sensitive? Of course there may be other factors.

    B.B., I did ask a computer scientist once why computers crash so often. The answer? "Sometimes the system state gets corrupted." For what that's worth.

    Wayne, good job. I was reading about Roy Boehm, the founder of the Navy Seals. In writing up his list of preferred qualities for his recruits, he included "taking names and kicking asses," then he scratched out the "taking names."

    Matt61


  40. Kevin,

    You crack me up.. I fell on the floor.. "when the USFT becomes to easy" .. if it were 20 ft lb .. yes.. those guys are kicking butt with the best of them.. but the 12 ft lb version, although, is just as accurate, when you have to deal with the higher arch and greater effect by the wind…

    …I have to believe it's an on going project.. and I think that's why I like it!

    I do remember once upon a time when I shot the course with the AAs410 and damn near clean it.. on full power, it shoots so flat, holdover is very easy! and accuracy is not an issue!

    Wacky Wayne, MD.
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  41. BG_Farmer,

    Thanks..I will!

    Heck, it's only a game.. why not "go for it".. for me it's about improving my skills, and getting together with a bunch of great folks.. talking guns and shooting them..

    The contest is a rush, too.. especially if it can be close between a few people.. even if I'm not one of them… it's still very exciting..

    ..to me better than golf.. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more in the US… sure grabbed me by the collar and won't let go!

    I still say Tom and Paul should do a show on the Field Target Nationals in Texas.. that could give the sport a great boost!

    Wacky Wayne




  42. um… well i hope twotalon gets control of whoever's posting his comments!

    Wayne,

    i'm commenting only because of that field target hold you put up. i must say that is the most brilliant thing i've heard all day. looks like a VERY cool idea. and if not for winning, it's always about improving skill, you're right.

    but the idea of the hold just intrigued me. it sounds like such a neat idea! it makes me want to go out and get a Leupold airgun scope with a straight crosshair… only problem is, the scope is too expensive, and i'm too cheap! so yeah, i'm probably not gonna get into field target with that attitude very soon, but it does look like a VERY cool thing to do. i hope to get to it some day. it's just hard to keep up with them big boys when you're starting out, because it's so demanding in both marksmanship (A.K.A. practice) and value of equipment (A.K.A. price tag)

    John W.


  43. DB,

    The pellet pen isn't unique or even new…just an extra expense. Long, long ago in a galaxy far away, Dennis Quackenbush came up with this idea. He took the clear plastic barrel of a Bic ballpoint pen & removed the innards but saved the cap. He loaded .177 pellets in it & then topped it off with the cap. A really cheap alternative to a $19.95 device that does the same thing!

    When we lived in Maryland and attended field target matches, I saw shooters using the Bic pen barrels for this purpose to quickly load their guns. Get lots of pen barrels & load 'em up before a match & you'll have protected all the skirts from damage as you travel, move from station to station in the match. And, if there's a spill, at least you haven't lost/ruined a whole bunch of pellets.

    Twotalon–I see that someone hijacked your handle. I'm going to delete that comment. It was probably posted by someone who's been banished from here.

    Edith


  44. John W.

    Your right about the high cost of entry to compete effectively against the "big boys" and their equipment.

    As the person buying the equipment for our club, since our members invest their labor in the facilities.. (we are a LLC business, not really a club).. I have been trying to find affordable effective equipment.

    I think, maybe, it could be the Marauder.. so much so, I invested in custom field target stocks for two of them.
    We just started using them, and so far so good. If one adds a leapers 8-32×56, your into it for about $1,000 with a custom stock..

    That scope is mildot. To do my holdover method, and have a clear bright scope that will last years.. you might choose a Bushnell Elite 4200 8-32×40 at $500.. or Nikko Diamond 10-50×60 at $800 (same as my BSA platinum)..

    These come up used on the yellow, but not often at much savings over new if you shop around for sales..

    To be safe and sure, the proven entry level gun would be the Air Arms s400 MPRFT for about $900.. these can be found used for $600 and sometimes with a great scope for $900 or so.

    The great thing is if you buy good used.. not always easy to do.. you can get all or most of your money back as you upgrade.

    Our guys like and are improving daily with the Marauder leapers combo and custom FT stock.

    The "A team" Ray and Hans, shoot a 12ft. lb version of the marauder and are winning. I doubt these are "stock" rifles.. but I don't know.. Based on the first results we've gotten… they could be stock!

    Wacky Wayne, MD.
    Ashland Air rifle Range


  45. Wayne,

    I have to step in here. Actually, Ray and Hans are shooting 12 foot-pound versions of the Crosman Challenger. Well, Ray is. Hans uses a 16 foot-pound version.

    These are easier to load single-shot, which they prefer. Most of us old-timers like loading one pellet at a time.

    B.B.


  46. B.B.

    On the FT forum, I thought I heard Ray say they are shooting a marauder in a challenger stock..

    Ray did a post that read "Marauder cleans course"

    so I don't know..

    Wacky Wayne, MD.
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  47. B.B.

    here is Ray's post..

    11.5 ftlb Marauder Cleans FTRPA FT Course…..
    August 31 2009 at 2:10 AM
    AteamRAY (Login AteamRAY)
    YF
    Had a great time shooting at FTRPA yesterday. Was squadded with Paul Cray (former National and World champion) and Mike Miller and we had a blast joking around throughout the match. In the end my Marauder shooting CPLs at 807 fps cleaned the course 60/60 just ahead of Carl Johnsons 58/60 and Paul Crays 57/60. Interesting to note is all 3 shooters posting the highest scores were using guns shooting under 12 ftlbs (my Marauder, Carls EV3, and Pauls Styer). Also Paul and I were shooting true WFTF style using no Harnesses or hold improvement devices.

    More people should give WFTF division shooting a try as I believe it makes you a better shooter in the long run. Come on out and give it a try!!!!

    Thanks to the FTRPA crew for a great time.

    and the link..
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/451309/message/1251699042/11.5+ftlb+Marauder+Cleans+FTRPA+FT+Course…..

    Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range



  48. BB, I posted the first comment. In response…

    I am suggesting the rifle *may* be *less* hold sensitive with open sight than a scope. I am not saying the groups will be smaller, optically a scope has an advantage, I am suggesting that for practical hunting and plinking open sights will force the user to hold the gun more consistently.

    You've mentioned more than once that repeatability is the key to accuracy with a break barrel. I believe open sights fosters that repeatability. Scopes have a field of view and parallax due to head movement. Open sights are far less forgiving to head movement.



  49. I think its definitely another blog post if your testing and experience back up my experience.

    My magnum would shoot tight groups and then move POI and shoot more tight groups. I thought it was the scope/mounts until I shot another less hold sensitive gun.

    I removed the scope to find that I can hit a soda can base (2.5") from 35 yards open sight all day long.

    I realized that my shouldering of the gun and my cheek weld were consistent open vs inconsistent scoped. I also noticed my firearm rifle, designed for a scope, has a much higher comb. Which got me thinking, does the stock and comb height dictate whether a hold sensitive springer should be scoped?


  50. I should add… I tried three bases, including the RWS Lockdown, with and without friction tape, three scopes, blue Loctite, and multiple pellets.

    After several months I switched to open sight and it has never lost POI since.

    I shoot from a supported or kneeling position. My freehand is only good for short range.

    PS. I swapped out the solid rubber recoil pad for a shotgun recoil pad as my shoulder hasn't much natural padding. It absorbs some of the recoil and allows the gun to move freely, like the artillery hold.


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