The new Webley Patriot! – Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier


The new Webley Patriot looks just like the old one. But does it perform?

Many airgunners have been waiting for this report. When Webley closed their doors in 2005, the world’s supply of powerful .25-caliber Patriot breakbarrels dwindled steadily until there were no more to be found. The Beeman Kodiak suffered a similar fate, being derived from the same basic rifle. Then, the news came that Webley had been saved, though manufacture of its spring rifles was moved to Turkey.

In March of 2006, I spoke with Webley Managing Director Tony Hall, who assured me no rifle with the Webley name would ever leave the new plant until it was ready. So, like everyone else, I waited. Well, the wait is over. Pyramyd Air received the first shipment of Patriots in January, and they were kind enough to ship me a rifle to test for you.

Appearance
At first glance, the new Patriot appears identical to Patriots from the UK. However, upon closer inspection and after spending time with the gun, the following was noted. The markings that were stamped into the metal on the gun are now laser-etched. The scope stop grooves appear to be smaller in radius, though they fit the B-Square scope mount made especially for the Patriot. There are probably dozens of other small differences, because it is impossible for one machine to exactly duplicate the output of another – CNC included. But, I don’t think you will be able to spot them without a vintage UK Patriot for side-by-side comparison.


These grooves are the scope stop on the Patriot. Your scope mount must have ridges to interface with them. The B-Square one-piece mount has two ridges in the correct positions.

The stock looks like beech with the same reddish-brown stain as before. Perhaps the wood finish isn’t as shiny as before, but at least one observer remarked that they probably use the same stock supplier they used before, so there shouldn’t be any differences. The metal finish seems more matte than the UK rifle, though the blue/black is just as dark as ever. The actual barrel is still 17.5″, but a threaded plug in the muzzle makes it appear to be 18″. That plug closes the hole for a silencer, but we have already discussed how a silencer on a spring gun isn’t that effective.


Muzzle cap unthreads to open a place to accept a silencer. This is for UK use, only

The stock’s pull is 14″, a good compromise for all sizes of adults, and the stock has the same fullness that has been characteristic of Patriots from the beginning. The overall weight is 9.3 lbs., which is the same as always, give or take the density of the wood in a specific stock. The length of just over 46″ is a gain of half an inch, or the specifications have been slightly off all along.

Operation
The part that will be familiar to all who have ever owned a Patriot is when you break the barrel to cock the rifle. You have to slap the muzzle to pop the barrel lock detent off its seat, same as always. The rifle I have cocks with 46 lbs. of effort, slightly less than the nominal 50 lbs. stated in the specs, but individual rifles have always had a couple pounds of variation. It still takes two hands to cock if you shoot more than just a few shots.

The safety is the same automatic button that pops out the back of the receiver, and the trigger feels the same as ever. The safety is a trigger-block type and can be set at any time, rifle cocked or not. You can uncock the gun if you need to by releasing the safety and pulling the trigger with the barrel broken open. Just be sure to restrain the barrel when you pull the trigger, because the same force you fought when you cocked the rifle will now try to rip the barrel out of your hands!

I mounted a Leapers 3-9x50mm scope in a B-Square AA adjustable mount, because it has the right crossbars to interface with the scope stop slots on the receiver. The scope is very bright and has a thin reticle with enough mil-dots to make it stand out against the background of vegetation. It’s the kind of reticle that allows very precise aiming.


Leapers 3-9x50mm scope was bright and has a thin reticle for precision aiming. This model is obsolete and has been replaced by a new TS mount with the same features.

So, from appearance alone, this is a Webley Patriot through and through. But, the range test tomorrow will reveal if it still functions the same.

25 Responses to “The new Webley Patriot! – Part 1”

  • Anonymous Says:

    great article on this multifunctional rifle(muscle trainer + airgun in 1).
    i’d love to know how it performs, cant wait for the next article.
    i hope other turkish manufacturers(like hatsan) will be influenced by this and bring out better quality airguns, athough i doubt that will happen…

    great blog, keep it up !

  • GadgetHead Says:

    Hi B.B.,

    I can hardly wait to find out how the Turkish Webley Patriot holds up to your scrutiny and how you hold up to the physical workout. (LOL!)

    I’m wondering what you think about the laser etching thing, with respect to longevity. Down the road… 5, 10, 20, 30 years from now… do you think there will be problems with determining the identity/manufacture of used airguns that were laser etched?

    In other words, how much and what kind of care is going to be required, in order to preserve laser etched markings, on airguns that folks actually use on a regular basis?

    Cheers,
    GH

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    GH,

    My Talon SS is six years old and the laser etching it still crisp.

    B.B.

  • tom Says:

    BB… During your test could you see why the scope stop’s are not as deep?? ie thinner tubing?…Small details like material heat treat of trigger parts, cross threads and so-on are what matters, and will determine if this will have the long life the British made rifles had.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Tom,

    No, like I said in the report, I think it’s the difference in the tooling used to make the gun. Each company’s cutter will produce a different look, or maybe they set up the CNC with a shallower cut. I don’t think the tubing spec has changed. That’s one of those fundamental things I think Webley will be watching closely.

    B.B.

  • dm20 Says:

    i suppose you’ve already tested it, which makies this a bit of a moot point, but what were your expectations from the new supplier?

  • Don Says:

    B.B.– I think that it is a sad day when so few airguns are made in the USA. Wouldn’t it be great if Webley’s tradition could have nestled here in our country? We only have Daisy, Crosman, and Air Force to represent our efforts and look at some of their fine past and present products. I guess this is a reflection of our whole foreign-based economy.

  • dm20 Says:

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.
    I’ve got a question about accuracy and barrel length. I understand that for rifled barrels, barrel length affects velocity and not accuracy. The rifling is the most important factor for accuracy and then the pellets. But what about smoothbore barrels? Does length affect accuracy for smoothbore barrels? I saw an episode on tv in the history channel about guns and a very long (I believe 10 ft long if my memory serves me right) smooth bore german rifle was built to improve the accuracy of the gun (compared to old muskets). Their logic was, the round ball would travel at a straight line for a longer period of time, so once it leaves the barrel, it would go straight further. Another note to my barrel length question: my classic army m15a4 can get extremely good groupings at about 15ft (dime size and sometimes the bbs will go in the same hole), however my KWA USP compact model gas pistol cannot group at all at 15ft (b.b.s spreads about the size of my palm). Both guns are stock and don’t have upgraded tightbores or anything. But howcome the groupings at a very short distance between my AEG and gas pistol is significantly different? Could it be the brand? (I was told KWA is a pretty good brand) Could the tokyo marui gas pistols that you tested group well? I’ve been wondering about this question a lot since many people in forums say longer barrels lead to better accuracy. Originally, I thought the difference would be small enough that it’s negligible, but I’m wondering why my results proved me wrong?

  • dm20 Says:

    forgive me, i’m not bb, but i wanted to chime in anyways. its my belief that the barrel tolerances differ, and that combined with the blowback of the pistol that starts to occur just before the bb exits, that changes accuracy. also, the sighting radius and gas blowing past the bb from the pistol cant help either.

  • dm20 Says:

    ^the last two deleted comments: just trying to cut down on my own spam.
    lucky for me, i discovered teh same scope you mounted being sold in canada (purely miraculous). thin enough for precision shooting and being made by leapers soudns good enough to me, and it doesnt hurt that the parallax setting is the very close to the distance i shoot!
    this posting thing is a bit of an alcholism… as is the whole hobby. i need to get off the keyboard and go punch some paper, as you say.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi BB, I really appreciated your posts on the tuning of a spring gun. I have a gamo cfx with about 1800 shots through it. I took it apart to see if there is anything i can do to improve it’s smoothness. I found that the spring is more compressed on one side, so I got a replacement spring. I installed it as you described in your post, lubricating the chamber, piston and spring with moly grease. (I know you used a different kind of grease for the spring, but I only had moly on hand). I have fired about twenty shots with it with the new spring, but the gun is dieseling very badly, so I am hesitant to continue. The gun also sprays grease out the front of the barrel with every shot, although this has decrease a lot after ten or so shots. I did not put any oil in the chamber, so the dieseling is obviously caused by the moly grease. I know i probably had too much grease in the chamber, but i reckon most of it should have been either shot out, or burned up by now. My question is this: would you recommend dry firing the gun to get rid of the excess grease, or will this do more damage than the dieseling?

    BTW, to give you an idea how bad the dieseling is, one of the pellets had the skirt blown off in the barrel, hence i had two POI’s on the target, the skirt did not penetrate the target, just left a nice little cirle where it hit.

    PS. I have to say i am very impressed with the CFX for the amount of money, I have been able shoot 1″ groups with it at 45 Meters off a rest quite regularly.

    Thank you for a GREAT BLOG!!!!

    William.

  • Matt Says:

    Hi William,

    I’m a fellow CFX owner, and the Gamo forum is a great place to find a lot of information, including info on tunes and lubes:

    (http://www.network54.com/Forum/479035/)

    One of the readers has posted a great tune guide for the CFX there:

    (http://www.network54.com/Forum/479035/message/1157402298/CFX+rebuild+-+long
    +-+pics)

    and another one runs a small business selling his own, well-regarded tune, lube and insert kits:

    (http://home.comcast.net/~peterdragin/index.html/).

    Check them out and you might find some answers.

    Matt

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    William,

    I think Matt has directed you to some good places. I would not continue to shoot the gun, and I would remove all the grease from the last job.

    Moly is for friction reduction – not vibration, so I doubt your tune is satisfactory in that respect. Your new spring may be tighter, but if it’s a Gamo spring, you can expect to have to replace it again, soon.

    See if you can find a good aftermarket spring that others recommend.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Airsoft guy,

    The German THOUGHT a longer barrel meant greater accuracy. I hear that all the time; it’s an urban legend that I will forward to mythbusters to resolve. Why guess when you can know for sure?

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Matt,

    Thank you for your help, but I cannot access the forum you mentioned, it says my ip has been blocked. :-(

    The problem with the Rich from Mich site is that I live in South Africa, and would prefer to find a local supplier for lubes etc, instead of having to order from overseas.

    I have no problem with the inserts, etc, as my dad has an engineering shop, so getting anything turned on a lathe is no problem. Lucky for me my dad also has a lot of gun smithing expierience.

    My main problem is luricant, specifically the grease for the spring. Do you know of a commonly available grease that works well for this purpose?

    Once again, thank you, and happy cfx’ing :-)

    William

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    William,

    Look for high viscosity open gear lubricant for the mainspring. The best stuff looks like tar.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Thanks BB.

    BTW, It is a gamo spring that I used. I definately plan on getting a good quality spring later on, but the gamo spring kind of
    fell into my lap, so I used it.

    Another question for you : The cfx’s mainspring guide has a plastic insert at the rear that pushes the spring forward. By cutting away part of this
    insert, I can release some of the pressure on the spring when it is at rest, will this improve consistency at all? I know it should help for longer life on the spring, but I am more interested in having a constant muzzle velocity. I chronographed the cfx with the old spring, and in three shots it went from 780 to 713 to 754 fps, this seems like quite a big spread.
    Like I said earlier, the spring was more compressed on one side, so this could have been part of the problem, but if
    releasing some of the tension on the spring helps make it more accurate, then I will gladly sacrifice a bit of speed.

    What do you think?

    William

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    William,

    The spring guide spacer puts preload on the spring. Decreasing the tension will lower your power, but not improve your variation.

    Your rifle needs to be cleaned thoroughly and then relubricated with just a hint of moly in the compression chamber. And get the moly off the mainspring. It’s migrating forward and burning in the chamber. That indicates a vehicle with a low flachpoint.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    i was wondering how many foot lbs. relatively speaking it takes to shoot whitetail deer in relation to these .45 and .50 caliper air rifles on pyramids site.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Most states mandate 400 to 1000 foor-pounds for deer. But two hundred years ago, hunters shot deer with .45 caliber round ball rifles that delivered 200 foot-pounds on target.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB.
    I want to buy an scope for my tx200, it will be mostly used for field target, and i have some questions:
    What are the main diferences between leapers, bushnell, nikko stirling, simmons, leupold scopes?
    Does any scpoe of those manufacturers resist the recoil of the tx?
    I want some power and it to be variable, posibly of around 20x and with an small objective (around 40mm) for it to fit nicely.
    What scopes do you recomend and what mounts would you recomend?
    How does the stop pin work with the mounts you mention?

    thanks

    TXguy

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TXguy,

    20 power is too small for field target. I recommend the Leapers 8-32 as a good scope for you.

    All the scope you mentioned will withstand the recoil. That issue has died out pretty much.

    You definitely DO NOT want a small objective! You need maximum light transmission to be able to see well enough to rangefind at maximum magnification.

    Most scopes are made in China, except Leupold.

    A low scope mount is no advantage in field target. What you need is powerful magnification, turret repeatability and light transmission. Do get a scope level by all means.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,

    Thanks for advice.
    Do I need high mount to mount a 56mm objective to my tx, if so, wich ones do you recomend? id prefer them to have the stop pin for the holes of the tx.
    Is the scope level really necesary?

    thanks

    txguy

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TXguy,

    Yes, you do need high mounts. I recommend Accusport mounts of the appropriate ring size and with a vertical stop pin. Two-piece mounts are far more flexible than one-piece.

    The scope level is only necessary if you want to compete in field target. At 20 yards, it can make a 1/8″ difference in where the pellet strikes. With a 3/8″ kill zone, that’s the difference between a hit and a split.

    B.B.

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