An outside-lock rifle by Gary Barnes

by B.B. Pelletier


Sorry for the size of this image, but I wanted to show you the whole rifle, and Blogger only allows photo widths of 5 inches. The butt contains the reservoir and is covered with leather.

In 1998, Gary Barnes built a rifle that I consider to be his masterpiece. It more or less conforms to traditional lines, through it has an extra-long 16.5-inch pull that makes it suitable for a giant. The gun is unusual in many ways. First, it is .25 caliber. While not completely unknown in antiquity, .25 is really a modern airgun caliber.

Next, the 32.75-inch barrel is rifled. Rifled outside lock guns are unheard of because they date to as early as the 1600s and not much later than the mid-1700s before rifling was in widespread use.

Other curious features are the sights. They’re made from mammoth ivory, a material sometimes used by knifemakers as a way around the elephant ivory that’s illegal today. This prehistoric ivory sometimes resembles modern ivory with the patina of age.

Finally, the rifle is made as a breechloader. That is almost unheard of in an outside lock, though not entirely.


The rifle breaks open slightly for loading. This is most unusual in an antique pneumatic gun.


This antler loader is for seating pellets deep in the breech, which increases the muzzle velocity.

What do we mean by OUTSIDE lock?
What is an outside lock? Well it’s a novel way of getting around physical laws without building an air rifle with an outlandishly large action. The action parts are attached to the outside of the sideplate instead of the inside. That allows the mainspring to stick forward into space and therefore be several times longer than the receiver had room. And that means it can be more powerful–which is one key to the outside lock’s performance.


The outside lock has most of its action parts attached to the outside of the plate. The hammer spring can be larger than the receiver because it doesn’t have to fit inside.

A customer of Barnes had sent him a genuine outside lock from the early 1700s and asked for some repairs. While he had the lock, he disassembled it and looked at every part, then made the lock and gun you see here. The lock he made looks remarkably similar to the original, and it functions exactly the same. Barnes made all the parts, including every screw that you see here. He made a trigger similar to the original but with one difference. His trigger ends in the center of the action and is usable by shooters who are either right- or left-handed.


Barnes lock at top and antique lock below. Barnes made the spring for the antique.

How does it work?
The outside lock is a marvel of engineering, because it is NOT a knock-open valve. Instead, it’s the first true timed-release valve. The valve isn’t knocked open. Instead, it’s pushed open by a lever. That’s why the mainspring has to be big and strong to overpower the valve and open it against the stored pressure. And this timing of the valve is another key to the gun’s performance.

How are valves “timed”?
Once the valve opens, the hammer holds it open as it swings to its stop through an arc. If you look at the Barnes lock in the above picture of the two locks, you’ll see a cam on top of the lever that pushes on the valve. It’s at the top of the lever, which is located to the left of the hammer. When the hammer is cocked, it passes that cammed lever and swings way back to the left edge of the action. When the gun fires, the hammer passes the other lever, hitting that cam and pushing it forward at the top, which pushes it backwards at the bottom. The hammer and lever remain in contact for a long time as their two cams slide over each other, which holds the valve open longer. This is how they achieved the timing of the valve.


This drawing is scanned from Airgun Revue #4. The descriptions were removed because they’re unreadable at this size and resolution, but you can see how the hammer interacts with the valve striker through the cams.

And what does a timed lock do?
The power of this gun depends on the shape of the two cams, the power of the hammer spring, the power of the valve-return spring, the size of the valve port, the air pressure inside the reservoir and the length of the barrel. The longer the valve is held open, the more pressurized air can flow out. The longer the barrel on the gun, the more time it has to act on the pellet. So, a timed lock also needs a long barrel to achieve its full potential.

Barnes’ first hammer spring developed about 22 foot-pounds on a 600 psi fill, but it broke during operation. The second spring he made produced over 28 foot-pounds on a fill of 800 psi. That’s right–just 800 psi and I got 12 shots from the gun. The first three were above 700 f.p.s. and the 12th shot was 462 f.p.s., when shooting a 20-grain Diana Magnum. A Beeman Kodiak would have almost certainly pushed the rifle over 30 foot-pounds, but the Diana Mags were the most accurate. Here are the exact velocities of all 12 shots:

713 f.p.s.
792 f.p.s.
795 f.p.s.
664 f.p.s.
635 f.p.s.
606 f.p.s.
581 f.p.s.
557 f.p.s.
539 f.p.s.
518 f.p.s.
495 f.p.s.
462 f.p.s.

The first shot illustrates a little bit of initial valve lock. My guess is the fill pressure is really best around 700 psi, but adding the extra 100 psi is not that harmful. However, it looks to me like another 100 psi would drop the velocity quite a bit, because that first shot is significantly lower than the second one. In the time before chronographs, the shooter relied on his ear and on bullet performance to indicate when to stop. Based on that, 10-12 shots seemed to be the limit.

Accuracy was about 3/4″ for five shots at 10 meters. That was measured edge to edge across the widest dimension of the group. Because this is .25 caliber, it’s actually a half-inch group. Not too shabby for open sights and a barrel that’s nearly a yard long!

Alas, I no longer own the outside lock rifle. It was sold several years ago and is now in another collector’s care. But that’s how the world works. You never really own the vintage airguns you have. They’re just yours for a time and then they pass on to someone else. If you think about it, that’s how you came to acquire them in the first place.

122 thoughts on “An outside-lock rifle by Gary Barnes

  1. “Not too shabby for open sights and a barrel that’s nearly a yard long!”

    Conventional thinking says that a longer barrel is conducive to greater accuracy (if for no other reason than a longer sight radius), but here you seem to be suggesting that too long a barrel could be detrimental to accuracy. Is that true, or am I misinterpreting what you said?


  2. Vince,

    All I am saying is that for sights made from a whitish-yellow material, the gun did pretty good. I didn’t say this in my report, but the rear sight is a flat block of ivory with a line cut down the center. That’s all there is to align with the front sight. If I had a picture of it I would have posted it, but since I don’t I didn’t mention that detail.

    Yes, a longer sight radius makes for more precise aiming.

    B.B.


  3. 800 psi? That sounds like it would be very easy to fill with a hand pump. A very beautiful rifle.
    Do you see something like the time lock happening on other pcp’s?

    Al In CT


  4. BB, is there any real advantage to timed as opposed to knock-open valves? I’d think that the knock-open style might actually be somewhat self-adjusting to reservoir pressure. As the pressure drops, the valve wouldn’t shut quite as quickly and it stays open longer to provide more air to the pellet. I’d think that this would help keep the velocity up as the pressure drops.

    Then again, I don’t know anything about PCP’s!


  5. BG-farmer,

    the Disco is the perfect “beginner” or entry level PCP, just from the price standpoint. Sure you’re giving up that nice adjustable, two stage trigger, warm walnut stock but this is the way to get into PCP’s and see if you like them.

    You’ll be happy with the air pump at first and then when you get more involved, you’ll get lazy and decide a SCUBA tank is the way to go. The pump is really NO effort to use since you only need to get to 1800 to 2000 psi and it’s only about 50 strokes to pump up the guns’ reservoir form 1200 back to 1800 psi. Look at it this way. Several weeks ago, I decided to test various pellets to see which one my Disco like best. There is another store on the internet that sells a pellet sampler – 25 different pellets, approx. 25 each, in a plastic subdivided box. As I mentioned on this blog several weeks ago, I shot 125 pellets to arrive at a result. Now try that with a 35 lb. cocking effort spring piston. It’s a great workout but you’ll have to be able to do it with both arms unless you want one arm and shoulder looking like it belonged to “Popeye the Sailor Man”.




  6. B.B.,
    Beautiful guns, both the orignal and the Barnes replica. I am in awe thinking what it was like crafting such a piece 300 years ago. Just the metalurgy of making those 2 hairpin springs is enough of a challenge.
    Thanks for sharing this with us. You are like the airgunners arm of the Discovery channel.
    Lloyd


  7. BB,
    Nice. I was suprised by the power. What does everyone have against putting a fore stock on one. That lock system looks delicate. Whats the practicality, is it just a modern replica? I was clay shooting with my shadow express yesterday. It doesn’t diesel with pellets from 13.5 to 16.2gr, but every time I shoot a shot shell, tons of smoke shoots out. I also shot some groups with those 16.2 gr gamo master points. I picked up some because they look like they would be stable in a smooth bore. At 35yards, I was getting 3inch groups in prone.
    Shadow express dude


  8. B.B.

    Wow, what a rifle to have in your collection!…. even for just awhile…

    I love what you said:
    "You never really own the vintage airguns you have. They're just yours for a time and then they pass on to someone else. If you think about it, that's how you came to acquire them in the first place".

    Super great attitude! I'm going to make it mine as well!!! Have them with gratitude, while you do, and bless them on their way to a new person, for awhile…

    BTW, folks, Tom & I just completed our trade for the HW-55T. Tom is a very honest and generous trader!!! Of course you knew that.. I'm just adding to the pile of evidence.. I'm a very happy camper!!!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range




  9. Tom,

    Many, Many, Blessings on you, Edith and your family..

    Thanks again for all you do for us here!! In so many areas… not just air guns…

    Merry Christmas All.. I’m all warm and fuzzy again…

    Wayne


  10. Well, here’s further proof that aesthetics are arbitrary. This gun is obviously a clever design, and I suppose you could call the performance beautiful. But as for the appearance, the super-long barrel, the asymmetrical effect of the massive buttstock, and the “dirty”-looking action with the many nooks and crannies don’t do it for me unless you’re trying for the effect of a flintlock rifle.

    Fred, those are very interesting comments about a PCP in response to BG_Farmer’s view which was very compelling the other day. I will say the light pumping of the Discovery is very attractive, and for a full tank you get something like 35 power shots at about 800 fps, is that right? So what would you say is the weight of a single pump stroke so that it can be compared to the 35 odd pounds of a springer?

    Nevertheless, remaining disadvantages that still have me stopped are the hassle of finding the “sweet spot” necessary to maximize number of shots and velocity all of which seems impossible without a chronograph. The tank is not an option for me so the business of valves and gauges does not supply I suppose.

    For the springers, ways to get around the cocking effort are as follows. 1) Get the rifle tuned by Rich from Mich. My B30 nominally has a cocking effort of 30 lbs. but after tuning it is effortless. I could literally work the lever all day without tiring. 2) Put a little body into the cocking stroke by exhaling and sagging downwards while pulling down on the lever (with the butt on your thigh). This way you are not relying only on arm strength. 3) Engage the imagination and pretend you’re like the artillerymen of WWII slamming a round into the breech of the gun for each shot. It’s fun.

    BG_Farmer, I realized that I don’t even know what springers you shoot. What are they?

    Matt61



  11. B.B.,
    Thanks very much for the link to your story. I will have to add historical fiction to your list of qualities. The observation in the essay about force being the sum of opportunity and desire, in that case applied to physical phenomenon, is certainly true in everyday life. The historical research you have done is clearly evident.
    Best regards,
    Lloyd


  12. Wayne,

    Thanks again for the Tempest. It’s scheduled for delivery Dec. 23rd. I’ll put the box under the tree and open it Christmas morning. I’ll be careful and not put my eye out.

    BB,

    The timed lock is really interesting mechanically. To have even thought of something like this in the 18th century and be able to build is positively amazing.

    Derrick


  13. B.B., Scrowling through today’s comments was interesting and informative, as always. Formulated what I wanted to say and will now second Derrick’s comment above this.

    No computer programs for design or machine control. It’s nice to be reminded of what was done with skilled hands and simple tools.


  14. BB,

    I file away many of your posts in the “cogitate” section of my brain without commenting. Love hearing about airgun design and how they work!

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

    Mr B,

    Yep, there were some clever people back in the “dark ages”!

    :-)

    .22 multi-shot



  15. Derrick,

    Your very, very welcome..

    Perfect… Rick walks in and says: “I’d like to sell this air pistol to raised some extra Christmas money”… I ask B.B. about it.. half hour later were talking on the phone, 2 hours later FedEx picks it up..

    What a world.. what a world..

    Just think back only 50 years, when there were only 3 TV stations, and people still did something besides watch the box..

    What will our world look like in another 50..
    Not to start a political discussion… just a muse..

    I’ll be Shooting, Thinking, and Thanking tonight..

    HHHMMM just one letter different…

    Merry Christmas All

    Wayne


  16. B.B. and everyone!!
    Hello guys and gals… I am currently at the JFK Airport waiting FOUR hours for the flight that will take us for 16 straight hours to Dubai… By the way, it is snowing here in NY and its the first time I have ever seen snow in my life!!! Cool… Anyhow, B.B., I read this article and it was very informative… I never imagined that such a rifle ever existed…….. But there is something in the Airgun World that I still do not understand… What does it mean having a rifled bore, smooth bore, brass or steel barrel, etc etc.??? Have you covered these themes already?? Which are better??? You have probably done these explanations already, but I just don’t have enough time to be connected and search for them (they charge me for the minute)… Can you please tell me if you’ve covered them already??? and where?? Thanks sir…!!! Happy Holidays everyone!!
    Cheers,
    Jony


  17. Kevin,

    It scopes very nicely… about a six inch 3/8″ dove tail. The loading is not effected by the scope. And the receiver is elevated about 5/16″ above the barrel, so you only need rings as high as the diameter of your scope or a little less.. And no barrel droop.. no recoil.. just accuracy.. I mounted a leapers 4-16x50AO on mine.. and it was less than 10 shots to get on target…

    The two shot sliding cylinder, is pretty cool, for a fairly quick second shot. I like it a lot… as much as the .22 cal S410 except for the nice 10 shot mag on the S410 and super nice walnut stock.
    It was loud before I added a LDC. It has male threads so a lead dust collector can be attached nicely. That awful lead dust can be a health hazard.

    Wayne



  18. Kevin,

    Your verry wellcum. Mary Christmass too yu and you’re fammilly to. :)

    Really Kevin, thanks for all your advice on hunting and all..

    Happy holidays and blessings on everybody!! I’m sure there are plenty to go around…

    Wayne


  19. BB,
    I ran accross some useful information while searching for "caliber contraversy" for the .20cal Vs .22cal. Check out this useful link. Now I want to write out some charts for my guns. :)

    P.S. That Smith&wesson sigma 40VE is great. Someone had a 40F varient at the range today. Why smith and wesson degraded itself so is beyond me (exept the known lawsuite and various issues with the F modles). when compared to glocks and the newer 40VE, smoother trigger, higher velocity, slightly more controlable too.
    Shadow express dude


  20. BB, I’d recently seen a used gun advertised for sale as an ‘RWS 34′. And while the action looks like a ’34, the grip has checkering and the stock has a rubber buttpad. The forestock is also deeper in front of the triggerguard. The trigger blade does not look like a T05, so I’m thinking it’s an early model – but I’m also wondering if it might be an early ’36. Any ideas?


  21. Kevin,

    If you really are getting ready to “pull the trigger on a PCP purchase”.. email or call me.. I could let go of the AAS410 .22, or the FX Timberwolf .22. Now that I’ve tasted these used, in .22 cal. I would like to trade them for .177 Field Target rifles. I want to keep the Air Arms .22 cal S310, because it’s the only stock I can easily shoot as a lefty..

    Is this turning into the pre-yellow classified?

    Wayne,


  22. Wayne,

    I shoot left-handed rifle. Some day we may trade.

    Kevin,

    My experience with shooting spring guns vs. PCP airguns is colored by the fact that I pump ‘em up myself (I prefer the self-reliance, simplicity, and not having to drive to a faraway place). I have problematic lower back discs, yet I can still pump the 10-15 minutes necessary to get 100 shots. Yet I much prefer to pull the levers on the spring gun (it is more comfortable for my back).

    I find that I mostly use big CO2 tanks on my .25 Condor PCP when I “hunt” rats/squirrels/crows under 35 yards as there is more than enough power and accuracy with this set up, and it is really quiet with the Anthony moderator. Most importantly, I get over 700 shots at the same level of power.

    For indoor target shooting, the CO2 would not prove accurate enough. Also, for shooting accurately beyond 35 yards, I currently would choose the Condor on air (or Rapid) rather than CO2. Although the other PCP (Rapid) that I own is modified to shoot more with less pumping, I would probably shoot if more often if it were a spring gun.

    ………..Whiscombe Notes……will be delayed for several days as my computer is broken and I am not at a setup that is conducive to writing about the Whiscombe. Suffice to say that I have been shooting squirrels, sometimes through snowflakes, with the .177 and have been getting some different {viz., better} results than I have gotten in the past with the [lesser powered] Model 54.

    - Dr. G.


  23. BB,
    This one of the few Barnes creations I’ve liked, although 16.5 inch length of pull would kill me.

    Fred,
    I was really excited about the Discovery, but the noise makes me wonder why not just shoot a .22LR (this applies to me only). The next step up is a fairly big one, to get a quiet one, and then I still have to pump or fill. Probably I’ll go PCP someday, but springers now give me a quiet, relaxing break, and I don’t even have to worry about bothering anybody.

    Matt,
    I shoot a Hammerli 490 (stock) and a QB36-2 that I rebuilt some. The Hammerli doesn’t have “cocking effort”, and the 36-2 is pretty easy for its power, since I polished and lubed internally and changed the spring and spacing and everything:). I can shoot either one of them for all the time I usually have. My typical session is about 40 shots, although I did go to a couple of hundred a time or two.


  24. Dr. G.

    I shoot right handed mostly (200-300 in the sitting FT position per day)… I only shoot 50 per day left handed to stretch my muscles both ways.. But since I’ve been doing it, for the stretching effect, I have been able to get some 3/8″ groups at 20 yards lefty…

    Wayne


  25. Hi B.B.,

    Do you know why Crosman supplied the .20 bbl for their SSP-250 in brass? The other two, .177 and .22, were steel, but the brass .20 was stunningly beautiful and was my favorite of the 3. Clearly, Crosman meant the SSP-250 to be their version of T/C’s Contender. Great trigger and with a stock and scope for many years it was my favorite go-to airgun.

    Joe B.



  26. Vince,

    It sounds like a 36 to me. As far as I remember, the 34 has never been checkered. I think that was its most identifying characteristic.

    Some early guns were imprinted 34/36, which may be the source of confusion.

    B.B.


  27. Joe B.,

    A simple explanation for the brass .20-caliber SSP 250 barrels is the fact that Crosman was making Sheridan Blue Streaks at the same time. Their barrels have always been brass, and the company isn’t going to change what is already working well.

    But for their Crosman rifles they were making steel barrels in the other two calibers, so despite the fact that they also made the Benjamin 392/397, they had the steel barrels they needed. And steel is cheaper than brass.

    B.B.



  28. BG_Farmer,
    I’m just a hack and I’ve been able to quiet my Disco without the use of and LDC. It is about the same noise as a good hunting class springer.

    Gave up some power to get there… but the Disco had plenty of power to spare. Like you I do not have a chrony yet. But my guess based on testing on plywood planks is that it is now shooting between 600 and 700 fps in 22cal. That is still good power though.

    The bonus is more shots per fill and/or fewer strokes to refill once you’ve dropped out of the sweet spot.

    Now if I could must bring my skill level up to be on par with the gun.

    B.B.,
    Did more testing with other pellets through my Disco and found it shoot OK with anything except hollow point. JSB Exact seems to be the best. CP round nose does almost as well.

    Some the RWS pellets with the special shapes are fun to shoot because the whistle as the run down the range. Kind of funny to hear it whistling.

    BTW… Mrs. DB liked this article… she loves antiques. We have a house full of old stuff people tossed out 50-years ago. Our coffee table is an old steamer trunk.

    DB

    DB


  29. Dr. G.,

    Thanks for the overview of pcp vs. springers. You seem to understand my current situation and consternation.

    700 shots on CO2? This is one of the most dramatic differances in shot count I’ve read. That must be a big tank. Is it normal that CO2 isn’t as accurate as air?

    I’m almost convinced that a rapid mkII will be in my arsenal in the near future. Toying with the idea of an entrylevel pcp first.

    kevin


  30. Cat lovers,
    My wife got into crafts and was buying old fur coats for a buck or so at garage sales and cutting them up to make stuffed animals. She then sold them at craft shows. Some looked like cats.

    One patron asked if they were made from real cat fur. We still laugh at that from time to time.


  31. DB,

    A steamer trunk coffee table! What a novel idea. We never thought of that.

    We use our steamer trunk for an end-table, between the couch and the love seat.

    Like you and Mrs. DB, we have a house full of old things, too. Including us!

    B.B.


  32. Hi Kevin, Here’s my 2 cents worth. Talon SS with 12 or 24 inch .22 barrel at 20 yards, no difference in group size between air or CO2. That’s using the same power wheel setting for both. Maybe Dr.G.’s comment on CO2 not being accurate enough for indoor shooting has something to do with the .25 vs. .22.


  33. It is best to use the flat top trunks as a table. Most people only think of the dome top trunks… which are really more attractive… but not as useful.

    Think of all the pellets you could store in a 24″ x 24″ x 40″ trunk. Someone do the math. Ours is full of children’s favorite toys and artwork and such. Now that the children are all grown such things are real treasure for the treasure chest.

    DB



  34. Kevin,
    My 2-cents on the springer vs PCP. Have both.

    I can see the need for both. But a PCP will always be more accurate and will always have the potential to shoot faster. The down side is the delta on velocity as the air pressure drops in the tank.

    On the upside the velocity delta is not really a concern unless you shooting long range. And many PCP’s have power adjusters. Not going to get that feature on a springer.

    The springer will generally cost less than a PCP system (gun, pump, tanks, etc.) and pack lighter for trips.

    DB


  35. Mr B.,

    No differance in your .22 condor’s accuracy between air and CO2. Thanks. Wish I wasn’t such a traditionalist. So many people, including B.B. shoot and love those airforce guns. Just can’t wrap my little brain around the looks.

    DB,

    Thanks (I think) for the additional justification. You’ve pushed me closer to the edge.

    kevin


  36. BB,
    What is more important when hunting at 50 yards…ish, veloity or power, penetration or wide wound channels? The gamo rocket is fairly accurate in my supped up Storm XT, the advantages are it penetrates bone at 60yards. Should I go for head shots with this or take the heart shots with crow magnums? Sorry about last post, here is that link http://www.velocitypress.com/air_rifle_ballistics.shtml. It has some things about the ballistic coefficients.
    Shadow express dude


  37. DB,
    Your Discovery modification already caught my attention. Since I wouldn’t be hunting with it, full power isn’t essential or even desired.


  38. Kevin,

    We have guests in my office at the moment.. so I haven’t checked my email yet… they will be up soon..

    I’m a traditional stock guy too… The Condor is super accurate, easy to load, everything a good PCP should be… except eye relief on the round tank/stock is very tricky.. not easy for me at all. The disco would be my choice as an entry level pcp, even though the Condor is more accurate, gets more “sweet spot shots” has adjustable power, and is a lot more powerful.. Only because of the wood stock and how nice it shoulders..

    Hey they are up.. I’ll go check my email.

    Wayne


  39. All,

    Nick Carter at the blog, Another Airgun Blog, found a link to a picture of a pellet in flight where you can clearly see the rifling marks on the head and skirt of the pellet. It’s from a blog devoted to photography apparently, but this is stunning to say the least. Here’s the link:

    http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/2008/12/15/air-gun-ballistics/

    And Nick’s post is at

    http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/snowy-ramble.html

    If you’ve never seen that blog, then you’re definitely in for a treat. It’s run by a couple of guys with serious milling equipment who love to build missing pieces of airguns from scratch … with pictures :-)


  40. Bg-farmer,

    “My typical session is about 40 shots” means you would be fine with many modest powered PCP’s and a single fill. Just stay away from rifles with a magazine, as I’m sure you know, they devour ammo.

    I usually put in about 20-30 pumps at a time and shoot my HW30S in between. This may not be necessary, but I don’t want to over heat the pump or myself. Two such efforts will fill the rifle unless you get sucked into shooting it real low.

    A guy on the Disco forum sells a power adjuster for the rifle. Got to think used Disco’s will be plentiful once the new model arrives and guys want to try it.

    Kevin,

    We are on the same page on the airforce rifles. As far as the entry level or used rifle to start, it is not such a bad idea. Some may view it as stop gap, but I think working your way up the ladder has its benefits.

    Based on my experience, Wayne will give you an excellent deal on that FX Timberwolf.

    If you’ll be using a hand pump, a single or two shot model will conserve air and effort.

    Volvo


  41. Kevin,

    How you feel about an airgun is as important as how well it shoots. Many people don’t care for the “black-rifle” looks of the AirForce guns and I say more power to them.

    Buy what you like. There’s not enough time to acquire new tastes.

    B.B.


  42. SED,

    Accuracy is always the most important thing. Next is performance on game. Power comes last. There are airgun hunters who hunt with Beeman R7s and HW 55s at 50 yards! That’s 7-9 foot-pounds at that great distance.

    B.B.



  43. Volvo,

    You all are chipping away at me:).

    Thanks for the feedback. I guess I would just have to pump up the rifle before or after each session, although that would add a little time that I would have to allocate; now its just a walk to the barn lot and shoot. I’m not opposed to PCP’s, just want to make sure that its going to be worth the trouble for my situation and habits.


  44. BG_Farmer,

    I understand you perfectly, I think. You are a crusty old guy who doesn’t like things pushed on him. Is that right? Because that’s me, as well. I hate wasting time on things other people think I would like.

    I designed the Discovery for guys like us. It’s less of a PCP and more of the rifle you’ll want to shoot all the time – and forget what makes it operatde.

    B.B.


  45. Bg-farmer,

    I wear down people for a living. : )

    It would be best to fill before you shoot, as leaving a full charge is harder on the seals.
    (Just quoting the manual)

    The Webley and FX probe appear to work by magic. You just stick it in. The Disco uses a quick disconnect that is a tad close to the barrel for ease of use. I have seen some modify them by changing the fitting so it is at a 45 degree angle.

    Since you are skilled I would guess you could mange that and the power adjuster that replace the factory end cap. The Disco seems like the Handy Mans paradise.

    Volvo


  46. Thank you BB,
    I couldn’t help but remember a failed occasion of pellets and a disasterous occasion of caliber/matirials. “Failed occasion”, I was shooting the first 20rnds off my deck when I spotted a squirrel leaping on the branches. I lined him up at 30 yards and shot him. He fell 7o feet but he didn’t twitch on the way down, perfect heart shot. when I placed him on a rock, I wondered if the premier magnums (new to me at the time) would over penetrate. I took 3 shots in assorted parts. I’ll add this was a monster of a squirrel, but not a single pellet went through, both good and disappointing.

    The “Disasterous caliber/matirial issue”arose twice. I was hunting a friends property and shot a squirrel at 15yards with the then new shadow express. The problem was the bullets used I believe, very soft cast daisy wadcutters 15gr. Well the first squirrel was blown off the tree at 15 yards, he survived for 3 more shots (the fist was a heart, then a rear leg, then a spinal) and escaped to a hole. The second squirrel was very small, took a head shot from 25yards. He fell out of the tree but didn’t die instantly. I put him out with a head shot, which didn’t even crack the skull.
    Shadow express dude


  47. Thanks for another great blog.
    just a quick question: When i get the rws34 panther (in .177) and crosman premier lights I ordered, will it be necessary to “oil” them for continued accuracy? Ive read you post on the topic, but i just want to confirm it will be necessary for that gun. If so, what is the best commercial product i can buy at a normal auto-body shop or something? we dont have many outdoors or hunting stores around here.

    Thanks.


  48. You are going to have to work a little. Get some STP Engine Treatment and mix it half and half with a good gun oil like Hopes. That is Whiscombe Honey and doesn’t detonate easily. Substitute 3-in-1 oil for Hoppes at your own risk, because it’s never been tested.

    DO NOT USE HOPPE’S NUMBER 9!!!!

    No standard car-shop item will work, as far as I know.

    B.B.


  49. B.B.,
    I’ve been dreaming again. This time I’m dreaming of small camera sized LI battery connected to micro sized DC electric air pump mounted in the stock.

    You could let it run or shut it off for shooting to keep things quiet. But when you set it down the pump kicks on and recharges the chamber in about an hour or so.

    Would that be sweet or what. Air power always ready in your favorite hunting rifle.

    Sell it to CR.

    BG_Farmer,
    You could do what I do. Last part of each shooting session is to refill the rifle. That way it and me are fresh on the next session.

    DB



  50. BB,

    Crusty is right, and getting old. Discovery back to top of list with that recommendation:).

    Not so “crustily”, I first posted to this blog 1 year ago shortly after discovering it and reading pretty much every entry. I realize this isn’t necessarily a reason for celebration among the rest of you, but it has become quite an enjoyable part of my life and something I look forward to reading and participating in. Anyway, thanks for the work you do and for the obvious enthusiasm and passion with which you do it. This blog and the people who participate are really extraordinary.


  51. Volvo, DB,

    I would probably risk the seals and charge the rifle after shooting, which might be a reasonable situation.

    You all and the rest have pretty much convinced me I have to try a PCP in the not too distant future.


  52. ALL,
    Does anyone have any experience with the accu tek AT-380 II. It’s a cheap gun at 200$ that resembles a walther ppk in the decocker and mag release areas. I was looking for my 3rd handgun to be a compact pistol for carry and other plain cloths situations. I gawk over the life time warrenty and price of the 7rnd .380ACP.
    Shadow express dude



  53. BG_Farmer,

    I like being old and crusty, then if I do something nice, it surprises people!

    Catching people in judgements, with a laugh, is a hobby of mine..

    Volvo,

    Your posting, that leaving your gun filled CAN hurt your seals, was news to me.. In reading the Air Arms filling instructions, there is nothing written about leaving the rifle in a filled state, harming or not.

    It does make sense though.. But don’t let it get below 50 bar (750psi), or you’ll have to overcome the firing valve spring and could loose air out the barrel in the early stages of the refill.

    I do leave some pressure, usually the last three to five shots of the “sweet spot” (1,800 lbs) in one of the .22 cal AAs310 or s410 rifles, just in case a squirrel starts raiding the bird feeder. But mostly I shoot them down to about 75 bar.. 100 bar is where most of them loose POI.

    Except for the Disco and the USFT (just a little price difference::::):):):)… Where the “sweet spot” is 1,800 to 1,000 and a overfill is 2,000!!!

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

    I got my used Santa suit yesterday, (from craigslist for $30) I’ve been letting my gray beard get good and shaggy… I’m just about ready for the membership Christmas party..


  54. Wayne,

    As far as leaving the rifle filled, the Webley manual did not address it, I never opened the instructions for the Disco, and the FX manual states actually as you do -that about 50 bar is optimum.

    I usually shoot down to about 100 bar.

    I would guess the length of storage would come into play also. When my collection was larger, I would sometimes not shoot a rifle for a year or more. I would guess that is when it would be most critical to store properly.

    You need to post a Santa Wayne photo for us.

    Bg-farmer,

    The best part of this blog, other than the obvious transference of knowledge, is knowing you’re not the only one playing with pellet guns.

    I had old buddy visit from out of town last week, and while we talked guns for hours, my mention of “BB guns” still evokes a confused look.

    Volvo


  55. Volvo,

    I'm sure there will be some electric Santanna Santa photos in the sitting Ft position… USFT on knee, Air Arms S410 on shoulder… children with Daisy 499s, Winchester 422s, and Diana 23s all around… practicing field target, so we can all jump in the sleigh and try and beat LD & Tim at Mac I and the gang down in Southern Cal.

    Wayne… errr..uhhh Santa


  56. Shadow express dude:
    Depending on size, guns I can recommend for concealed carry are the Kahr k9, and if you really want small, check out a LWSeecamp(32 or 38). Bath are very nice pistols. The kahr is a little large for concealed carry, but the lws you can carry anywhere on you.
    John from jersey


  57. Kevin, Re my Talon SS. I haven’t been able to wrap my brain around it’s looks either nor the Discovery with its air cylinder perched on top of its stock. (Check out the difference in Woods and Water Outdoors.) However, they sure do shoot, very interesting rifles, both.

    B.B. About how many hours did it take Gary to make this rifle? Also did he use modern tools? Thank you.


  58. DB,

    Your on-board mini compressor sounds intriguing! It reminds me if the Rutten (Browning) electric-cock springer. Of course that one was a failure because they used a high-torque motor that sounded like a pit crew changing tires at Indy every time you cocked the rifle, but I suppose if it was quiet there would have been some interest.

    Maybe they could work in a mini coffee brewing station at the same time — for hunters who need a cuppa after a long day’s hunt.

    B.B.


  59. Shadow Express Dude and Jersey John,

    I have to break in here because I recently had an experience with a Kel-Tek 9mm. We got it as a concealed carry weapon, but it jammed a couple times with factory ammo.

    While the jam rate wasn't high, you can't have confidence in a gun that doesn't work, so we went back to the 1911s for general work and a Makarov and S&W snubby for when it really has to be concealed.

    I would sure like to hear the experiences of other CCW carriers with these small 9s and 380s, as I am all for them in theory. They have light recoil and are reasonably accurate, but the reliability has to be perfect.

    And for the record, I didn't limp-wrist the gun.

    B.B.


  60. B.B.

    My buddy I mentioned above is an NRA instructor and has more handguns then I had air rifles at my peak.

    His favorite for CC is the 5-shot .38 cal Smith. (Internal hammer)

    Mine is the same. I have been curious about the new Ruger in .380. I’ve had one of their 9 mm’s for years and it has worked flawlessly.

    The US Army actually bought 5000 of the 9’s for carry in tanks some time ago.

    Volvo


  61. Volvo,

    Appreciate your encouragement to “work my way up the ladder of pcp ownership”. Makes sense. I might be overthinking this simple purchase but I have set some criteria and being german can’t seem to compromise. Traditional looking gun, accurate out of the box, must be able to easily adjust power, easy to scope and get lots of accurate shots per fill. I know, I know I don’t want much. Volvo, you’re absolutely correct about Wayne and his “deal making”. Very generous and very helpful. Never ceases to amaze me what a great group of people you are that contribute to this site.

    Mr. B.,

    Our tastes may be similar in that we like traditional looking guns but you’re a better man than me since you at least tried the talon ss. I’m such a stick in the mud.

    Wayne,

    Thanks again for all the time you took yesterday in answering questions, making comparisons and sharing photo’s. You’re one of the good guys. Thanks.

    kevin




  62. Mr. B.,

    I really don’t know how many hours Barnes put into this rifle, but it was finished in less than half a year, as far as I know. And he probably didn’t work on it even half-time.

    Yes, he used modern tools as much as he could, but many things required hand work.

    B.B.


  63. Volvo,

    I see that the Ruger 380 has been recalled. I wonder if we have hit a lower size limit beyond which reliability starts degrading?

    Yes, I have an S&W 37 as a carry gun when the Makarov is too large, but I would like something PPK-sized. Maybe that's what I need?

    B.B.


  64. I also have a ruger SP101 38special. Power of the 38special round is a little on the low side(still will knock someone down), but other than that, I have found it to be a great pistol. However, I personally prefer an auto pistol for concealed carry because you don’t have the extra width of a cylinder.
    John from jersey


  65. Jersey John,

    I have two Ruger revolvers of the same persuasion in .357. I like them, but I agree that they are too big to carry for the rounds they offer. A 1911 isn't much larger.

    The S&W 37, on the other hand, is pretty tiny.

    B.B.


  66. BB, and all whom responded,
    My brother has the ruger LCP (the recalled one) and he hasn’t had any jams in 7oornds, it’s fairly accurate too. Groups with winchester white box FMJ’s are around 3inches at 10yards. Very small, but I’m a ppk (and clone) fan.
    Shadow express dude


  67. B.B.

    Didn’t know the new .380 was recalled. I had high hopes for it. Could explain why I have not been able to find one every time I visit the two gun shops in town. : )

    I assumed they were just selling really well.

    I’ve got another buddy who has a PPK as his off duty gun. I shot it a few times, seemed very nice. I just had hoped that Ruger could bring something similar to the table for less $$$.

    John from J – I agree the cylinder width is a little annoying if you’re looking for absolutely the least bulk.

    Volvo


  68. SED,

    I’m interested in both the Ruger and the PPK. Does the PPK ever “bite” the web of your hand in recoil, as I have heard? That’s assuming you have shot one.

    The Ruger sounds reliable enough for me. Yours is the only report I have heard with a reasonable number of shots on the gun. My Kel-Tek jammed about three times in 300 rounds, which is unacceptable for defense.

    B.B.


  69. Volvo,

    Did that PPK ever “bite” the web of your hand, as I have heard? The PPK/S has a longer overhang in the back to prevent that, and the Makarov is positively cushy. If only it weren’t so large.

    B.B.


  70. B.B.

    I was actually able to shoot the PPK at 21 feet very well, and I have never been a big handgun fan. No issues.

    My friend did not fare so well, to the point I joked with him if ever I needed to be shot at I hoped it would be him with that pistol. Yes, it bit him in the web.

    I did feel bad as it was his first time out with it, a gift from his wife. I would guess maybe the fit is a little different for everyone? His hands would be on the larger side.

    Volvo


  71. Vince,

    That Beeman FX2 was from the late 80′s to early 90′s. Spanish made, entry level break barrel. I think they only carried them in .177. Mid 500′s for fps. Try the Blue Book 5th edition. Page 108.

    Derrick


  72. Kevin,
    Sharing some of your genetic predisposition to obsessive analysis (the most egregious being Prussians), I can sympathize. Your criteria point to something like AA S400, I think. Wayne might possibly agree:).

    Wayne,
    We enjoy the same social misdirection.

    Volvo,
    I have had limited success with trying to recruit pellet riflemen also, although if I can get them to shoot one, they usually get interested. The thing to remember is that there are very few of us who shoot mainly for the love of it; many are infatuated primarily with the power. You’ll find them recommending .338 Magnums for whitetails:). BB has created a sort of refuge for us.

    DB,
    I love your idea, although it might be more practical to make the “charger” separate, perhaps as a base with a QD in the butt of the rifle. My idea at one time was an electrically charged SSP, with a small motor high rpm motor driving a screw mounted piston, but I never worked out the details, nor perhaps could I implement them if I had:). I dislike batteries, intensely, even more so since having offspring:).



  73. BG_Farmer,

    Yeeeuuuppp! "Social misdirection" is my specialty…..

    I've got Kevin really thinking now!! His head must be spinning like crazy..

    Volvo,
    The challenge of tighter and tighter groups, is a real grabber for me… but not so, for many of the rest of our group (my wife Chris at the bottom of the list, well, maybe her 83 year old mom is at the bottom)..

    Randy, Josh and Nate like to put the time in practicing… but no one like I do, (of course my office is an indoor range)… I just love it! It's not for everyone, there are lots of fun uses for air guns, besides field target or bench rest shooting.

    Now that I've got an invite to come visit Tim's club, the pressure is on, not to embarrass myself with his fine USFT.. so the practice sessions have switched to the USFT for me, and Randy is practicing with the Air Arms S410 .177.

    200 shots a day with the USFT is a lot more time consuming than the AA side lever… by like 4 times!!! That side lever can really throw a lot of lead in a hurry… and with accuracy..

    DB.

    How about a large solar powered hat and back cape!!! A small wire feeds down your arm to the rifle..and coffee maker…

    Try to use things your body needs either way….

    Keep on Dreamin.. All things are possible, if the conditions are lined up right.

    Derrick & Vince
    I looked in the 7th edition and didn't see the Beeman FX2.. seems funny…

    Wayne

    AARR&R


  74. Kevin,

    As far as ethnicity goes, we are not a match. However our requirements in a rifle do line up nicely, for the most part.

    The only one I would take issue with is the adjustable power. One of my PCP concerns going in was POI changing through the power curve. I like to sight in a rifle and be good to go.

    I try and top my rifles off before any significant change in POI. Still I see a little movement in a fill. After a while you learn to anticipate shot placement based on the charge in the rifle. If you were also adjusting the power, I believe this oneness would be difficult to achieve.

    I think I have read that Wayne keeps his adjustable power on the same setting?

    Dialing in different velocity along with the ever changing pressure in the rifle could be confusing.

    Maybe I have spent too much time in the firearm and Springer world, but I just look to different rifles to offer different power levels.

    I do understand the attraction of one rifle supplying both R-7 and Kodiak power, but most all purpose tools are not the ideal solution. I doubt that the guy at the BMW garage forgoes the socket set in favor of an adjustable wrench.

    Volvo




  75. Volvo,

    Well said! I do keep my Air Arms S410 set at half power, about 12 foot lbs. But if I wanted to kill a squirrel and didn’t own the .22 cal s410s or Condor or S310 or Timberwolf….
    Then I would just turn the knob, pop in a 10 mag of 16 gr Eungin and have some real punch. Even down to 165 bar, the Air Arms S410 still shoot the 16 gr at 853 avg. over ten shots… 845 lo.. 858 hi.. that’s 12 fps diff!! The accuracy is better with a kodiak 10.6 gr… but then your at 1014fps for the first 30 shots with a 195 bar fill. lo 1005, hi 1027 22fps spread. But, I like to stay under 900fps with any pellet I shoot.. I would turn it down or shoot the less accurate Eungins, if I’m trying to make a hole in a squirrel at 25 yards.. Staying under 900fps is a toss up vs the better pellet design of the kodiak.

    The other nice thing, with the power adjuster, is the ability to increase the number of shots. When you loose POI, you can turn up the power adjuster just a tad, and get 5 or 10 more shots, on that POI… then maybe one more time adjusting for 5 more shots on that POI..
    But that’s my “stuck on an Island with only the shots in the gun” game. You’re right in that: why not just pump up to just under valve lock and shoot down to loss of POI.. and call it good with out a power adjuster..

    Anyway, your right, if one has a closet full of rifles. Like we all do… here in this group..

    This is Kevin’s first PCP, but not his only… we would guess… IF it was, then the power adjusted Air Arms S410, with the very smooth 2 lb cocking side lever.. is something to consider..

    Derrick,
    Thanks, Beeman has so many pages, and different model lines, it’s hard to find there stuff..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  76. BB,
    It all depends on the hands. My Gi 1911 in .38super bit my hand every time I tried some rapid fire. I cut down that GI style hammer about a half centimeter. I rented a ppk with target grips and nite sights that never bit me while rapidly engaging targets out to 40 yards. The caliber is weak, but by concealed carry standards, there arn’t many calibers with power to begin with. I selebrated Xmas today with the inlaws. They got me a really nice dremmel tool set. I engraved a 1938a daisy Buck with a front handgaurd take from my first gun, a red rider. Looks great.

    BB, any new on when paul capelo gets a new video?
    Shadow express dude


  77. Wayne,

    Another endorsement for the AA
    S410? I was blind sided. : )

    I’ll admit adjustable power was attractive to me before I shot my current PCP’s

    What I wondered on rifles with 3 different power settings was if you could get 3 different pellets to all have the same POI at 20 yards – at the various power levels.

    On low power maybe CPL’s, JSB Heavies on Med, and Kodiaks at full power. Ever try anything like that?

    I envisioned shooting in the basement at 6 ft lbs, then dialing up and switching pellets to dust a critter at 40 yards outside. All while keeping the same scope settings.

    Going back to the “just one gun” scenario, that would be ideal, but probably not feasible.

    Guess I’ll always need at least a few rifles. Darn. : )

    Volvo


  78. Volvo,

    I like the limited number of presets, e.g. 2 or 3. Add a regulator and it should work reasonably well. To me, the idea of an unregulated supply with an infinitely adjustable power wheel invites misuse and frustrated expectations.

    I don’t like the idea of adjusting the power wheel to maintain POI any more than you but do like the idea of one rifle for targets at 10M and silhouettes at 50, for example.


  79. Volvo,

    I have done it with two .177 cal pellets.. JSB 8.4 and JSB heavy 10.2 gr. I like to shoot the 10.2 gr. in either the USFT or Air Arms S410 .177 side lever, as a rule, but as the pressure goes down with the Air Arms, I have switched to the 8.4 gr… and it is just the same as a tweak on the power adjuster…but how much of a tweak?… like B.B. said, “The most important thing Wacky Wayne said is: “get to know your gun””…

    Yes, the fantasy of just “ONE AIR RIFLE”.. well…. if one can do it.. The Air Arms S410 .177 side lever would be on the top of my list..

    But even if it turns out false, it could work as a ploy with the wife or budget manager… A reason to start close to the top, instead of wasting time and money trading your way up… And who knows.. you just might stop there.. much to the chagrin of PA.. and the other retailers..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  80. Bg Farmer,

    If such an animal exists, I think it would be intriguing also

    But I can’t help but think it would be more like using the 55 grain sabots in a 30-06. Works, just not ideal.

    I think BB wants you to get a Discovery. Wish I had thought of letting you use it with an option to buy. I would have been interested on your take also, especially of the exact same rifle.

    I saw one a couple weeks ago that actually looked like the cover on the box for sale. Mine was a very strong shooter braking 26 ft lbs, but not a looker by any means.

    Wayne,

    Looking at your numbers, that S410 is really cooking on full power. I don’t have any .177 Kodiaks right now, but I would estimate my Whisper will get about 880 fps based on what I get from my lighter pellets.

    So your 1000 + fps kicks my FX’s behind.

    My Christmas gift to you.

    Volvo


  81. BB,
    Which pellets, I’m running low and need more, but I want to try something new. I already have the premier magnums for the satisfiable knockdown power, but would like to see how a heavy wadcutter like RWS super mags effect game. I need a little more range in both the Remmington 77 and supped up storm xt, so I suggested to myself a areodynamic midweight pellet like gamo pro magnums. Any other pellets to make the “extended range” list.
    shadow express dude


  82. Volvo,

    Thanks, I love the gift, it fits perfect.. here’s one for you:

    Finishing that string of 30 shots… that started at 195 bar. (205 bar is top)
    shot 31 and the rest… 1006, 1013, 1000, 996, 995, 1001, 1000, 992, 991, 984, 992, 991, 984, 992, 988, 982, 977, 971, (145 bar now) 974, 968, 962, 964, 956, 950, 950, 942, 941, 944, 939, 937, 929, 923, 924, 915, 908, 909, 906, 896, 890, (at 100 bar) 890, 889, 887, 881, 875, 864, 859, 861, 854, 845, 843, 842, 840, 830, 828, 827, 815, 811, 807, 800 (now at 60 bar) 791,786,788, 784, 776, 770, 765, 760, 753, 744, 746, 736, 731 (50 bar).. 880 fps was at about shot number 80..

    Notice, not a hint of valve lock with a 195 bar fill.. just a steady drop of fps..

    Merry Christmas, Volvo, and All

    What a trip, I got a call from a nice young women who wants to shoot air rifles at the range, and she just got here so off we go, snow and all, down to the shooting booth.. my second customer.. and I haven’t advertised… just word or mouth… or course I have a big mouth!

    Wayne


  83. The discussion of the modern plastic rifle v. the traditional wood reminds of something I was told during Basic. The M16 met with resistance because you couldn’t march with it like you could with an M14 due to the pistol grip. Of all the reasons to not like the M16, that had to be the lamest.

    How about a PCP with a hand pump built into the stock for field expedient fills? The pump handle could recess into the stock. Probably take a gazillion pumps, but at least you’d get to keep shooting.


  84. Wow all where to start? First let me throw my Kel-Tec P3AT in .380 auto into the pants pocket please.. Just goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Gun Tests liked it better than the Ruger copy. I say it that way cause Kel-Tec was there first.

    Also like my turn me loose gun, smaller than a mouse gun, which is an old North Amercan Arms in .22 long rifle.

    My Walther TPH in .22 was put up in favor of the Kel-Tec.

    B.B. is there a rule of thumb on leaving a PCP sitting with air or CO2 in it. I know you recommend a pump or two in the Benjamin and Crosman rifles and pistols, but how about the single strokers? Also I know not to leave CO2 in the Crosman 1077, but how about the RWS 850? Now we’re up to the PCP’s and what should we do? Thank you very much for clearing this up for us.

    BG_Farmer, I never thought of it that way. You’re absolutly right. We shoot more for the love of it. It’s not a power trip.

    Wayne, yes 900 fps works very well. However, alot of my shooting is at 20 yards and that is where the power wheel is down low for the shot count cause the 900 fps isn’t needed.


  85. Volvo,

    Wayne made a pretty good case for a power adjuster on a pcp. My uneducated and possibly off base reasonings are that I intend to shoot the gun at both my homes. At my home in town I’m limited to 100 feet. At my home in the mountains I have a 200 yard range. I also intend to use the pcp for pests. Mostly squirrels in town that kill the branches on my trees and a lower power setting for close shots is called for. At my home in the mountains I have prairie dogs that can be either 40 feet away or 150 feet away. I also have a raccoon problem so the higher power setting would be called for. Maybe I’m asking too much from one gun but this is my justification.

    BG_Farmer,

    You’re echoing my interest in adjustable power for a similar reason. Should I be concerned about you?

    kevin


  86. Wayne,

    ARGH! Sometimes when reading your posts here I wish I still lived in Glendale (OR), so I could drive down some weekend and play with all your toys.

    Ahh, but then…Maui. I fear no airgun is worth the move (especially when the east coast is getting record-breaking wind-chill factors right now).

    Anyway, Mele Kalikimaka (Merry Christmas in Hawaiian) from,

    Joe B.


  87. Volvo,
    Do they still make Accelerators? 10x the power and 1/10 the accuracy of a Golden Bullet, if I remember correctly. I’ll probably go for a Discovery, if BB won’t be mad at me for making changes if necessary. I think it is a perfect system for hunting as it is, but I really want to make it quiet and slow enough for daily target practice…even here 40 or 50 rounds of rimfire every day (possible) might raise concerns after a few weeks:).

    Kevin,
    Sorry, not trying to copy you on adjustable power…probably just wrestling with the same fears of the unknown:).

    JoeB.,
    7dF here currently. Was almost 60 a couple days ago — bet you don’t have that kind of variety in Maui.


  88. BG_Farmer,

    Well, kinda. Even though sea-level Maui averages about 82dF, up here at 3100′, it was 54 this morning. Odd, but one’s blood thins to acclimate. A 54dF temp that wouldn’t have fazed me when I came from Vermont now makes me feel decidedly cold-blooded. It’s colder still at 10,000′ on Haleakala, which we’re on the slopes of. And on Mauna Loa, on the Big Island (aka ‘Hawaii’), there’s often snow on top.

    Joe B.



  89. SED,

    As far as pellet go, the JSB Exact domes are often the best, or close to it, in many guns. The light ones are for springers and the heavies are for pneumatics.

    Beeman Kodiaks are another winning pellet.

    RWS Hobbys are great and often very accurate, though they are among the lightest of all lead pellets.

    B.B.


  90. Randy in VA,

    A PCP with a pump built in? Sounds like a multi-pump to me!

    Something similar has been done in the Daystate Sportsman, which was the Titan before that. A 3 to 5-stroke multi-pump with the same accuracy and power as a PCP.

    People didn’t like it for the following reasons:

    The PCP folks said the addition of the pump made it too heavy and lopsided )it was a side-stroke pumper). People who like multi-pumps complained that it was too large and too pretty to lake into the woods. They wanted a rifle that was two pounds lighter and more matte-finished for hunting.

    B.B.


  91. Mr. B.,

    It is okay to leave PCPs or CO2 guns fully charged, They seals don’t take a set, unless the guns are very old or perhaps were made in China.

    I leave my AirForce Talon SS fully charged all the time and it has been operating since 2001. My Daystate Harrier has been running since 1997.

    B.B.


  92. BG_Farmer,

    On the subject of Remington Accelerators I must disagree. When I was in Germany in the 1970s I hunted roe deer with Accelerators and got one-inch groups at 100 yards. They were only slightly less accurate than my Sako .222 Remington, though that rifle was a Mannlicher and not a varmint gun.

    My .30-06 sporting rifle, which I still have, has a 1919 machine gun barrel with a hard chrome barrel. Maybe that has something to do with the accuracy. All I know is, I was dropping roe deer at 200 yards with that rifle – no problem. I killed 13 in 18 months. The last five were with Accelerators. Once I found them I abandoned all my other sporting rifles.

    B.B.


  93. BB,

    I’ll defer to you and actual experience on the Accelerators. It sounds like you had better luck with them than most, not to mention a reason for using them.



  94. Hi B.B.,

    You mentioned to someone, “Get some STP Engine Treatment and mix it half and half with a good gun oil like Hoppes. That is Whiscombe Honey and doesn’t detonate easily.”

    In your Feb 25th, 2008, report on how to lubricate pellets, you said that Whiscombe Honey’s formulation was 2 part Hoppes to 1 part STP.

    Not being critical here. Just want to know if it matters. Is either formulation ok, e.g. 50-50 and 66-33, or would you stick with your original 66-33?

    Thanks,
    Bill



  95. Bill,

    You are right. My earlier formula (2:1) was right. I only made the stuff once and have been using it ever since.

    I don’t think the other mixture (1:1) will harm the gun, but it will be thinner.

    B.B.


  96. BG_Farmer,
    Understand your distain for batteries after you have children and all those noise makers.

    A few decades ago I had the same thoughts. Didn’t take me long to modify the toys to include micro switchs and volume limiting diodes.

    A charging cradle for your PCP would work too. Might even be better; could run off 120VAC. If the plan was to charge over say overnight it could be made rather quiet because everything could run real slow.

    Wayne,
    Could you design the solar hat to look like a cowboy hat? The cape would just get in the way.

    Trust me… I know intuitively that a small LI camera battery does not have enough juice to run a pump motor for long. Just not enough grid to store enough electrons. It was just a lark.

    Randy in VA,
    Have to agree with BB. PCP hand pumps require a hundred pounds of force… to put that on the gun would make for some tough recharging.

    But if you did it would be convenient. It wouldn’t have to be the primary source. It could be backup to say drop in a few extra PSI while waiting for the dog to move out of the way.

    Again just a lark. It would be difficult to use and expensive to buy. Very much what BB said.

    DB


  97. i am sorry to interrupt this conversation to ask my question , but i have not found any other up to date talks by all you pro’s on here si i thought i would just jump in and ask some questions .so here the deal , a few months back i picked up a pellet gun for plinking in the back yard and to handle the pesty rodents in the trash etc. at night, within the first 3 months i had been through over 10 new guns ( many got returned ) and ended up with things like Gamo whisper , walther force 1000 , crossman nightstalker , , and yet was still not happy or having any real fun plinking pine cones or anything else , so i then bought a rws 850 in .22 cal , i like it a lot compared to the rest , but wish it had the pwer of my Whisper or force 1000 , even though it shoots a heavier load it lacks enough that they come out delivering more power , and as i am not yet ready to spend $1,000 to $1,500+ ( as i would then be thinking and asking you guys if im better off with a s410 or hw100 ) but i do think i am ready to soon buy another gun another step up from the rws 850 , and i have narrowed my likes down to Career infinity , walther 1250 dominator , or a AR6 , i really though i wanted the 1250 cause i like my rws 850 , and i like the help of the reduced muzzle report , and the blacked out look and the way it looks with a good scope and a varmint hunter kit with that umarex compensator , and yes i think personal appeal is good quality too . but as i read on all these , i find that it seems no one buys or reviews the 1250 dominator , i think that cant be good , and it cost more than either of the other 2 that both come with good reviews etc. , then the other problem is that once i start looking at taking that next step i start bringing into play the idea of the infinity in .25 , and all that i have read states the .25 would be better for knocking down varmints , and my regimen of plinking pine cones off the tree , as my rws 850 only takes out the dry and dead ones , but i feel if it had more fps ( power ) it would give me a better impact result , and even better again i would think in .25 cal …. please unload on me the responses and personal knowledge you have on these questions of mine .
    also my personal email is rarebreed29@sbcglobal.net

    sorry if my questions sound stupid to anyone else.


  98. Hi B.B.,
    Not for sure if this is the right thread to ask this: I have a talon ss on order, I am try to find out what all is needed for maintance etc.. I am planning on shooting both compresed air and co2 air from time to time. As I understand I should not use crosman pellgunoil
    with the gun at all because I will be at times shooting it with compresed air. Do I need to use anything at all when shooting co2?
    Is co2 harder on the gun than HPA?
    Thanks,


  99. Since the air and CO2 are stored in different tanks that each contain the firing valves, there is no problem using Pellgunoil. However, because the CO2 tank will get filled at a paintball shop, there is no way for you to put the oil in, so it’s a moot point.

    CO2 is not “hard” on an airgun in any way. I don’t know what you mean by hard, but both CO2 and air behave in the same way, more or less. You don’t need to do anything extra when shooting with CO2.

    As far as maintenance goes, all you may need to do is clean the barrel every 10K shots or so. I’ve never cleaned mine, so I really am not even sure about that. But whenever a Lothar Walther barrel loses accuracy, I clean it with JB bore paste.

    B.B.


  100. did you know that gary barnes was a world famous knifemaker before he bacame one of th finest air rifle makers? i have one of his knives from 1982. at one time i had a faboulous collection of german shuetzen rifles. i sold them many years ago to gun dealer jim georgen in minnesota who is a close friend he still has the. they were so faboulous many have appeared in publications throughout the years. gary barnes carvings on his shuetzen style stocks was as faboulous as any i had in my collection. i owned a tousand diferrent guns when i was a young man but eventually sold them all. the shuetzen and my steven's target rifle collection are still intact in 2 collections. know i'm just an old has been retired funeral home owner. only a few guns but i have a faboulous custom knife collection. just saying how impressed i am with mr. barnes carved stocks thank you



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