Discovery barrel – to glue or not to glue

Introduction by B.B. Pelletier

Guest blogger
Wayne Burns is a new reader of this blog, though he’s been an airgunner most of his life. But he’s learning about new kinds of airguns here, and sharing those experiences with us. Today, he tells us about a modification he made to his Benjamin Discovery rifle.

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.

Bloggers must be proficient in the simple html that Blogger software uses, know how to take clear photos and size them for the internet (if their post requires them) and they must use proper English. We will edit each submission, but we won’t work on any submission that contains gross misspellings and/or grammatical errors.

Discovery barrel – to glue or not to glue

by Wayne Burns


My brother-in-law’s Discovery and mine. Both .22 caliber.

I’m not an experienced airgunner, but I got the bug bad . So bad, in fact, that I thought other babyboomers must be getting it, too. So, I’ve been testing low- to mid-priced air rifles with the intent of opening an air rifle range in the near future.

When I read B.B.’s reviews of the Benjamin Discovery, a gun he helped design, I got excited like a million others and got in my order at Pyramyd Air. The wait was worth it. I must have been one of the first to get one, because my review at PA (without the pump) is at the bottom of the list now.

In the beginning, I really didn’t notice that the barrel could flex back and forth with easy finger pressure. After about 2,000 very fun and mostly accurate shots, I noticed the flex and was sort of outraged. Then, I said to myself, “It’s been shooting fine, the air tank protects the barrel from getting wacked, and light gauge material keeps it low cost and light weight.” BUT how can it be as accurate as it could be, if the barrel flexes? Without much thought, I removed the fill cap and put a couple of drops of Super Glue right where the barrel touches the air tank near the fill cap (being sure to not get glue where the cap goes on). I let it dry overnight, and the next day no flex.


>My sloppy glue job with super glue. Note that I took off the fill cap before gluing.

I promptly complained to B.B. about the “flexing” barrel in this forum, (I should have complained before the gluing) and B.B.s’ polite reply was:

Wayne,

I have to caution others to not Super Glue the barrel to the reservoir. The reservoir moves as air is exhausted and if the barrel is attached, it will walk as the pressure changes.

What did I do?
I wrote back and said something like, “It seems to still shoot as accurate as before.”

B.B. replied, “That’s what counts.”

But, I wasn’t sure. Because, as the pressure in the tank drops below about 1,200 psi, the pellets hit lower because of lower velocity. But B.B.’s comment made me think that maybe they were dropping because the air tank was pulling down on the barrel as the pressure went down.

I told B.B., “My brother-in-law, Randy, has a Discovery I gave him for his birthday that is not glued.” (He waited to see what happened to mine.) “Maybe I could do some sort of test.” B.B. said, “Why not make it a blog?” So, here we are.

At what pressure do pellets start dropping from lack of velocity? When we know that, we can see if the pellets from glued or unglued barrels are dropping differently. I thought it was after about 30 or 35 shots in my rifle when I fill it to 2,200 psi.

The test
My test was to have Randy and me shoot each rifle down to the red sector on the gauge with the same type pellet.

First attempts at testing failed due to human error. It’s too hard to know what is human factor, pellet factor or scope movement. All three proved to be problems.

So, I bought two Benchmaster rifle rests at a local shop. They eliminated the human factor, pretty much.


The Benchmaster, the cadillac of rifle rests, is similar in function to the Gamo Air Rifle Rest.

Next, which pellet?
While testing for the best pellet, we found that the 4-16×50 Leapers scope on my rifle would not stay adjusted, so we changed to the rock-solid 3-9×40 CenterPoint on each rifle. They’re not as great for field target, but fine for this indoor test at 60 feet.

After much testing, we found that the 15.8-grain .22 cal JBS Exact Jumbo pellets were just a little better than the 14.3-grain Crosman Premiers. Premiers average 791 fps, and the heavier JBS was 773 fps.

First, we shot the non-glued Discovery to find out at what point it dropped from lack of pressure. Then, how much the glued Discovery dropped at the same point on the pressure gauge. Not very high tech, but that’s all I could think of.

What the heck?
Randy filled to 2,200 psi and had a problem. This is a problem some other novice airgunners might run into with the Discovery, so, at this point, I will just show you my email to B.B. (Tom Gaylord).

Hi Tom,

Randy and I are testing tonight, but the crony tests I did earlier today – filling on the scuba tank that was down to 2,000 lbs. – are puzzling. The crony shows that when the we fill to 2,000 psi, it takes about 8 or 12 shots to get to peak velocity. That seems strange. I would think that the more pressure in the tank, the more f.p.s. But the strings on the crony for the RWS Superpoint start at 786 and climb pretty steady up to 821 on the 13th shot, then – 823, 815, 820, 820, 817, 820, 822, 820, 814, 811, 810,796,804,795,786, 782 and 780, where I stopped.

Randy filled his rifle from the new tank, so it got filled to about 2,200 psi. He started the test having not shot his Discovery for a few weeks, so when the first shots were low, he adjusted his scope accordingly and found the center for awhile. Then his shots started going higher. He adjusted the scope again to the center and stayed on target (see target number 4). By this time, he had fired about 45 shots. Then his pressure continued to drop and he got a great 6 shot group 1-1/2″ low. Then the needle on the gauge went into the the red and his next shot dropped a full 3″.

He didn’t tell me what he was doing. When I heard, I showed him the crony test from earlier. It matched his results. We both wondered why it has less power and shoots slower with more pressure in the tank. Here are some photos from that first test.

This makes our test more difficult, don’t you think? HELP!


52 shots at ~60 feet, indoors with the air tank filled to about 2,200 psi. These were before we were using the Benchmaster.

Tom wrote back:

Wayne,

You are encountering valve lock. A valve is balanced to the pressure at which it operates. When I designed the Discovery, I told Crosman that an airgun could be just as powerful at 1,800 psi as it was at 3,000 psi. They didn’t believe me, but when they built the first prototype, they discovered that it worked.

The pressure at which a valve operates can be changed by changing the spring rate of the valve return spring or by changing the valve diameter or by changing the valve seat angle or by changing the weight of the striker or by changing the striker spring rate or by changing the valve stem height. Any of those six things can change how a valve works.

Even YOU are over-pressurizing your gun by filling to 2000. The proper fill level is the pressure at which the first shot comes out at full power.

Shoot the gun until the velocity rises to what you consider to be the ideal velocity. That sounds like 820 for your rifle. Then stop shooting and try to fill the gun at that point. Note the pressure at which the gun begins accepting air. I’m guessing your rifle will like a fill of 1,800 psi. They will each differ a little, so don’t go by the 2000 psi on the gauge. Learn the fill your rifle likes, then fill to that level and stop.

Why doesn’t more pressure make the pellet go faster? Well, answer this: why doesn’t more gas in your car’s gas tank make the car go faster?

Because a car doesn’t work that way, you say. Well, neither does an airgun. There is a range of pressure at which the valve opens to the maximum and stays open the longest time. Within that range you will get the maximum velocity that valve is capable of delivering. Tests have shown that the Discovery gets 21-26 shots in a tight velocity spread. Some people will shoot up to 35 shots because they will accept a larger velocity spread. A person shooting groups at 50 yards will notice a POI shift resulting from a velocity variation sooner than a person shooting groups at 10 yards.

Each PCP is unique and needs to be tested to determine the max fill pressure. It is impossible to manufacture two PCPs that work exactly the same, just as it’s impossible to manufacture two cars that have the same top speed. You can adjust and modify two guns to perform similarly, but even then you cannot get them to be exactly identical.

You mention opening a scuba tank’s valve when the tank pressure gets to 2100 psi. You think that is okay. I shudder, because you are overfilling the gun. Think of going to the gas station and, after your car’s tank is full, you pump the rest of the gas out on the ground, so the number on the pump reaches an even number of gallons. That’s what you are doing when you fill like that.

Stop looking at the numbers and start learning your rifle’s individual performance characteristics.

Starting over
We had to start over, initially filling until the Discovery gauge reached about 1,800 psi. With the guns filled to 1,800 psi and shooting off the bench rests, we shot a few more tanks of air – only trying for 30 to 35 shots.


It’s hard to tell with 35 shots on one target, but the non-glued barrel did a little better on the first 35-shot test.

In this first test, the non-glued barrel had the best 35-shot group. We found it better to shoot groups of five at different targets, so we could see more detail. Notice that when you shoot over and over at the same spot on a thick board, it will break…and that’s a 2×6!

We eventually found that our guns did best starting at 1,700 psi, and going for only 20 or 25 shots if we didn’t want to change our aimpoint. If you’re willing to adjust for the different impact point that comes from a lower velocity (aiming high for the first 10 shots or so, then right on for 20 to 25 shots, then high for the last 10 shots or so), you can get 40 or 50 shots on a tank filled to 2,000. It’s not so hard to learn how to adjust your aim, and worth it, if you’re hunting. For shots over 30 yds., I have to start aiming high anyway.

In the second test, with both guns filled to only 1,700 psi, the gun with the glued barrel did a little better than the one that wasn’t glued. I noticed that the chrony and the accuracy say that shots 1 and 20 are close to the same when starting at 1,700 lbs. Keep in mind that you still have 10 or 12 more shots if you want to aim high, but they still have enough wallop to kill a starling at 25 yds.


The glued barrel (lower board) did a little better in the second test with only 20 or 25 shots.

Conclusion
If it really bothers you (like it did me), it probably won’t hurt to glue your barrel. It could be that the cheap super glue I bought flexes enough to give with the movement of the tank. Or, the air tank is strong enough to not flex as the internal pressure drops. [Note: It isn't - Ed.] By far, the more important factor for accuracy in the Discovery is the proper fill pressure. Then get to know where the valve lock occurs and how it affects accuracy in your particular gun…if you want to stretch the number of shots you get from a fill.

Another fix, is to add another barrel band, or move the one closer to the end if you think the flex is a problem at all.

75 thoughts on “Discovery barrel – to glue or not to glue

  1. BB is right – there’s no such thing as ‘non-flexing’. Any material under any stress at all will flex – you can drop a hair onto the Golden Gate Bridge and it will flex. The question is always ‘How much?’

    If I’m not mistaken, super-glue is not a very flexible glue, especially in the shear direction (which is, what I believe, you’d be concerned about here). I wonder if a silicone adhesive (like Permatex Clear) might prove to be more suited to this application over the long term.


  2. BB,
    I have always wondered since i started reading your blog is that all of the airguns that you review do you buy them or does pyramid give them to and further more do you keep them after you riview them (if the answer is yes wow that is alot of airguns).


  3. Daniel,

    Wouldn’t that be nice?

    No, I return the guns I test and Pyramyd Air sells them as used. Sometimes I ask to hold on to a gun long-term, because I have other things to do with it. But if there is no reason to hold onto it, the gun goes back.

    B.B.


  4. Wayne,
    Excellent write up. I wondered what other solutions therre were to barrel flex. I had heard of the other barrel band, but that looks goofy. Good luck with your FT Course.
    Brody


  5. I am not overly concerned about the flex on my Discovery, especially after seeing some of the overhang on some BSA rifles. I guess I trust the engineers more than I trust myself, which gets to my point.

    Am I in the minority by not having the overwhelming itch to modify my guns? Granted I am a newcomer but in all my interests I worry more about making myself better before I worry about reengineering a piece of equipment.

    Bruce


  6. Bruce,

    I’m with you on this. I don’t like modifying my airguns, and only do so when there is a compelling reason. I also agree that making yourself a better shot will produce far greater results than modifying your gun.

    But airguns do attract tinkerers, and we do have to address their interests, as well.

    B.B.


  7. Just so I know I am not alone in the wilderness…

    My father in law and his brother (both cyclists as well) are engineers and the prototypical British eccentrics (think Wallace & Grommit). Both are great tinkerers. Both are intrigued by my new airgun hobby as well.

    Things like bicycles, air guns, computers all attract clever and creative folks and the fields are better for it I guess. I am just not one of them.

    Cheers,

    Bruce


  8. Wayne,

    Nice blog, I don’t own a discovery but have considered one. Super glue crosses my mind every time I read about scope shift on a springer. Don’t know if it would work though.

    thanks

    B.B.

    In your email back to Wayne you noted that every pcp needs to be tested to determine max fill pressure. Can this be done without a chronograph? I have a talonSS and fill with a hand pump only. Any info is always appreciated.

    thanks jw




  9. JW.
    Thanks,

    I haven’t learned my lesson yet, I got frustrated with scope twist and glued a centerpoint 3-9×40 to some two piece mounts, (so at least I would have some flexibility). It did solve the problem, but now those mounts and scope are one…no more twist..

    Guess what folks, yesterday I bumped my Discovery and the glue job broke…the barrel is loose again….how about that…
    Now I have to again decide..”TO GLUE OR NOT TO GLUE” what a joke…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  10. Wayne,
    My remington 77 has that problem. When I put Liquid Nails on the barrel,It started shooting 1 hole groups at 15 yards. Thanks for the report.

    BB, would using a copper/lead remover like Copper Klenz (designed for firearms) work in an airgun barrel. What is the purpose of a barrel crown?
    Shadow Express dude


  11. B.B.

    I’ve read your review on the Falcon Hunter, and I’ve read good things about the Gamo Whisper as well as the Benjamin Discovery.

    I need an air rifle that will consistently take rock chucks with a single shot.

    Which of these rifles and calibers would be the most efficient, or is there another in the sub-$400 price range that will be a better choice?

    My inclination is the Falcon in .22.

    Bill


  12. Wayne,

    Very interesting. I enjoyed your piece. I have to agree with Bruce. I am also not into tinkering with my airguns, I do have “customizing” done by skilled professionals however. Not all of us make good shade tree mechanics.

    B.B.
    I am considering trying to re-finish an old Daisy BB gun. I know not to do this to anything with collector value – but this is just a shooter. Any thoughts? I don’t have it yet but it appears to have rust, some pitting and the wood is scratched.

    Thanks,

    Volvo


  13. Shadow Express dude,

    Yes, Copper Klenz will remove the lead from your airgun barrel. It will also remove all the seals in the gun.

    A barrel crown ensures that equal pressure acts on the base of the bullet/pellet at the moment it leaves the muzzle.

    B.B.



  14. Volvo,

    The best and easiest product is the Blue Wonder tough-up kit. It’s tough and it looks the best of all cold blue products.

    However, if you own a modern BB gun made after 1952, it is painted instead of blued. You need to strip it and repaint with a tough paint. Hardly worth the effort.

    B.B.


  15. BB,

    Thanks!!

    I assume the Discovery will have sufficient power to handle rockchucks?

    I’ll admit making sense out of the Airgun scene is much more difficult than the centerfire rifle scene I am familiar with. Everyone seems to make claims for their rifles that don’t come close to matching what they actually will do velocity wise.

    If Remington or Wichester or any of the centerfire manufacturers tried that, they would be roasted!

    Bill


  16. Volvo,

    It was fun and a lot of work for this somewhat unschooled old fart…I got a new camera and learned to use it a bit…and doing a guest blog, made me go back and read a lot of B.B.s old blogs to get the format and all…so I learned a lot of new stuff..
    We are also going to do a blog on our raised garden bed website…so this is learning about how this blog interacts with the PA website as well..
    So, thanks to all, for the chance to learn stuff and meet you nice folks…

    Matt61 or IZH61 owners,

    I bought a used 61 from an add and I’m having trouble with closing the cocking lever. I have to fiddle with the magazine to get it to close…anyone else have a problem like this? Is there an easy fix….maybe a tube of glue….
    just kidding…
    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  17. Bill,

    Nice try, but I write firearm reviews for Shotgun News, too, and the firearms manufacturers do embellish their ads.

    Thompson Center’s .22 LR autoloader that was supposed to be guaranteed to shoot half-inch 10 shot groups at 50 yards turned out to shoot three-quarter-inch groups when the American Rifleman tested it.

    And the Taurus PT1911 that is supposed to be as good as a $2,100 custom pistol lost some luster when I bought one! I’m preparing the report for SGN at this time.

    But back to the Discovery. It’s a solid 20-22 foot-pound gun in .22 and I have shot several half-inch 50 yard groups with mine. The average for five shots is closer to three-quarters of an inch, but still – you’re never going to equal that with a springer.

    B.B.


  18. Bill,

    We got a Falcon Hunter, and I agree with B.B. that the Discovery is much more accurate and you can get second shots off much quicker….You also don’t get beat up like the Falcon does to me…It is so hard to cock and it kicks like a full grown mule, knocking me off target…I was sending it back, but one of our big tough members said that’s the gun for me…so he bought it from me.. I have not shot the Whisper, but the CFX’s are not coming close to their advertised FPS..so my guess is the Whisper will not be close to as powerful as the Discovery..
    The Falcon does have a little more power and you don’t have to buy a pump or scuba tank, but it will be much harder to hold and shoot accurate…I’m sure if you study where to hit, you can make a clean kill with the Discovery…the extra power won’t help if it is in the wrong place….The discovery will be louder….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  19. B.B.

    When it comes to the weapons, of course you are right. Hey, it’s advertising, they have to embellish it to some extent!

    I’m talking about the velocities of ammunition. If they say it is 2560 fps out of a 24″ barrel, there are hundreds of guys who will call “BS” if it isn’t within a standard deviation of that.

    But is there even ONE manufacturer of air rifles who quotes a REAL figure, using some kind of standardized test?

    OK, I’m off to look at the Discovery and figure out how to pay for it!

    I was hoping that the Falcon might be a cheaper way to handle my rockchuck problem!!

    I’d prefer to just use my 6.5 Grendel AR15, or a 30-30 with Accelerator rounds, but the folks who run the city get all bent out of shape!

    Thanks for the help, and any other advice would be greatly appreciated!!

    I’ve enjoyed reading the last 4 months of posts, and look forward to reading back quite a ways.

    Bill


  20. Wayne,

    Wow, you did a SERIOUS amount of work to write this blog. Incurred some serious expense, too–all in the pursuit of airgun knowledge. Thank you for a great blog. Looks like the hardest part would be isolating so many variables just to test one. Seems like you both still need to trade guns and shoot each other’s rifes to perhaps isolate individual shooter skill.

    Enjoyed reading your post.

    Derrick


  21. Wayne,
    You went all out, and its a good read. As long as the barrel returns to its original position, I wouldn’t worry about “barrel whip”.

    Volvo,
    I understand wanting to refinish the BB gun, so that you can add your own history. I think appliance type paint would hold up well and probably not be far from the type of finish that was on the metal originally. My late model Red Ryder seems to have powder coat or at least better paint, but my old one was just paint, I think. I was going to renovate my old one, but then I decided that it was worth more to me with all its wear-marks and scuffs.


  22. Bill,

    I know what you are saying. I had a relative bring their new Gamo over for me to mount the scope and sight in. While advertised at 1000 fps with lead pellets, it barely hit 750 fps with CPL’s. This made it a 10 ft lb gun, not the 15 ft lbs you might have concluded from the box. How they justify this is by not giving the pellet used for testing.

    While I am sure their may be others, the ACTUAL HW catalog gives very accurate claims. You can also find some dealers that publish real velocities and the pellet that was used. Of course, it will vary some from gun to gun.

    This bad information can lead to purchases that are not suitable for the intended use. On the surface it would appear that my HW97 has less power than a number of lower cost offerings, but it can actually shoot a CPL at 930 plus fps – not to mention giving you nice groups. My HW50S in .22 even shoots over the advertised velocity.

    Sadly, even Beeman will increases the advertised velocity of the HW guns it sells like the R7 and so on.

    What is the average distance you will be shooting at?

    Volvo


  23. Derrick,

    We did exchange guns, in and out of the Benchmasters…The report was so long I left out those details..Randy and me (Randy and I sounds better to me, are you guys sure that is right) are both about equal in our shooting skills, I out shoot him a little more often, but I get a lot more practice, in between phone calls all day, while he is down in the mill..

    bg_farmer,

    Thanks, I’m a “horse trader” of sorts…and since I got the Air Arms S410, I don’t want to shoot anything else, except for testing…

    So when a guy a few minutes ago, wanted to trade a boat for my Discovery, scope, case and fill adapter, I said sure….We are only minutes from a real nice lake…so now I don’t have to decide for myself “TO GLUE OR NOT TO GLUE”…

    I will be buying 6 or so more Discovery’s for the rifle range, and I won’t glue them…

    unless I find a special on superglue….

    just kidding, again….is anyone laughing?… it is hard to tell..my screen is not shaking…my computer must be broken, I’ll get my glue out….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  24. Volvo,

    Max range is 35 yards.

    Generally I can get even closer, (they run if I walk towards them, but stand and look if I ride up in a golf cart, go figure!)

    The last one I shot was at less than 10 yards. I killed him, but not with a single shot. The first shot was a double lung, but not heart shot, so I had to shoot him twice more, but I’ve only had a .177 available, and it simply isn’t enough for these big rockchucks.

    I spend a ton on my long range habit, shooting targets at 400-800 yards, so picking up a pellet gun wasn’t my highest priority, but the rockchucks are killing the garden.

    Bill

    Bill


  25. BG – farmer,

    I agree with not cover handling marks when they are your own.

    I had this type of BB gun as a kid and think it will be nice to try and get it as close to Christmas of 1965 as I can. Looking at the different models, it was the least expensive made. I know it is not “worth it”, but I’ll enjoy the process.

    I almost bought the pump daisy my neighbor had on gunbroker too. It looks like it was a model 25; I was always a little jealous as it had more power than my lever action. But mine was the better cowboy gun.

    Volvo


  26. Bill
    You are not going to take down a chuck with a boiler room shot with the guns you are looking at.
    To drop them dead on the spot you have to hit them square in the head between the eye and the ear. And I do mean square, or the pellet will deflect off their hard skull.
    You need power and precision.
    And if shooting in a town that has ordinances against it, you sure don’t want the Disco. You would get one good shot, one dead chuck….if hit in the brain box, and a visit from the cops.

    twotalon


  27. Bill,

    My guess was that distance was not too great if you were defending your garden.
    If you do consider a spring gun instead of a PCP, consider the underlevers as they will be closer to what you are use to shooting. I think a copy of the Air Arms underlever is not too expensive? I’m not sure what model it is. B.B. or others will know.

    My thoughts are rather than all out power, accuracy will be your better friend. It sounds like you can shoot so rather than body shoots, go with head shoots. I hit a crow in the head at 55 yards the other day with my HW97 and it is just as rewarding as shooting a groundhog at 300 yards with a .243.

    Same skills.

    What do you have in .177 now?

    Volvo




  28. twotalon,

    Because of the noise generated by the Discovery? Aren’t all the powerful airguns going to be pretty loud?

    Airguns are legal, and I have room around me, my neighbor uses a .410 shotgun, just waits for the wind to blow, and pops them with it. In 10 years, I’ve never heard him shoot, but I can’t take the risk he can because I am a CCW holder, and need to keep it.

    I have been able to kill chucks with single shots of the .177, but I’ve also bounced them off the skull, as you mentioned.

    I’m open for advice, I’ve even considered a subsonic .22, but once again, firearms are illegal in city limits.

    Bill


  29. Bill,

    Spring guns are quieter than PCPs, BUT, the Discovery will shoot RINGS around the Falcon you mentioned.

    The Discovery is not as loud as a .22 CB cap, but it’s pretty close.

    If you get that rifle, get it in .22.

    B.B.


  30. OK, so being more specific..

    Max range – 35 yards
    Goal – Kill rockchucks in garden
    Cost – Preferably under $300, $400 max
    Complication – As little as possible, which is why I had stayed away from cosidering PCP’s until people started talking up the Discovery.

    Help is greatly appreciated!!

    I’m 100% comfortable with practice, and I can shoot, regularly shooting 1 MOA groups out to 600 yards with my centerfire rifles, but the airgun thing is completely new.

    I have a Beeman .177 springer with scope, that I can group into 1″ at 30 yards with the right pellets. It was about $179, and a stop gap gun last year when we had a bad starling problem. The local store had no .22 airguns at the time.

    I need something more effective.

    Bill


  31. Bill
    PCP guns are loud, unless built to be quiet….which most are not.
    I have killed quite a few chucks with a .22 Talon, and have had some get away because the head was turned just a bit. Talk about giving them a headache.
    A boiler room shot will kill them in a couple minutes, provided you hit them in the high chest area and avoid the front leg…but not too humane and they die in the hole.
    Something in .22 cal that is going to give you 800-900 fps minimum with a pellet that is either very hard or heavy, and has the precision within 30 yds.
    If you can get away with the noise, the Disco will work, but with great care on shot placement.
    twotalon


  32. Bill,

    The Discover is it….but change your budget….if you are spending a lot on fire arms now….you will spend more on air rifles….I’ll bet you a new HW-30 in the box against $75 cash(that’s 3 to 1)…that you’ll spend $1,500 in the next year moving up the food chain…

    So…if you change the budget… I bet you get people saying the Condor, if you like the look and non wood stock…which I don’t

    Again, I’m sold on my S410 10 shot repeater in .177 cal…..I just came in from a 50 shot session (one fill) while meeting with our master gardener…at 50yds I shot 4 mags at the same 5″ “shoot and see”..I got 1 shot in the 7 ring. I was using 10.6 extra heavy Kodiak match in the 10 to 15 mph wind….so I aimed 5 mil dots high and hit the 7 ring, but then, dropped 1-1/2 mil dots and then 9 more in the 9 ring and the other 30 were in the 10 ring with one on the # 10 and 8 in a 1″ group in the center….Then I moved over to the 1″ dot and got a nice 5 shot group on the edge, then 3 out of 5 on the last 1″ dot…

    I am not that good, I was moving around and just shooting when I crossed the center….anyone can shoot this gun, especially you…
    And getting shots off quick without changing your shooting position more like a rim fire, is real nice…especially hunting…

    Bite the bullet (or pellet) sorry guys… and get the S410 in .22 cal….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  33. Wayne
    Do you think it would work to put a slide on the forearm of the S410 and connect it to the cocking lever so you could work it like a pump?
    MCA


  34. MCA,

    The action might be easy enough, but the stock is so fine, I would not do anything to it…I’m a woodworker from birth, so this gun really grabs my heart….

    Take the stock off and sell it and start over…it might work…but B.B. would know more about that stuff….

    Wayne


  35. Wayne,

    The S410 looks awesome, but when will you be sending the HW-30? :) (There is no way I will spend that kind of money in the next year or two. I’ve already committed to a custom 7mm WSM for 1000 yard shooting, it will be several times that cost of an S410, and then the scope will add at least the cost of an S410 and probably twice that.

    I can foresee eventually spending a chunk on some high quality air rifles, but it will be much longer than 12 months!

    So when does that HW-30 arrive?

    Ashland? I’ve been there may times to the Shakespeare Festival, but not in the last 5 years or so.

    I wish someone operated a rental by mail for airguns. I’d pay $50 to play with a rifle for a week or two to see if it was what I wanted!

    Bill


  36. Bill,

    You’ll have to wait a year of hearing me talk it up on the blog…that’s the bet…you talk big now…but you’ll cave in…and won’t be able to lie about it…you’ll love it so much..you’ll have to tell us…..so wait….and keep watching the blog..I’m gonna figure out how you guys link photos of groups…and you won’t last 3 months…but then PA won’t have any and you’ll be kicking yourself…don’t worry you can make payments on the $75….

    Did you ask before about the rent by mail, some one did and…I’m into it…I think…tell me how you see it working…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  37. Wayne,

    Good information! I actually placed an order for a Discovery from Pyramyd, but my financial situation changed (vehicle repairs) and had to cancel the order before it came in stock.

    I still have it on my wish list so the information you gave is invaluable!

    As far as tinkering goes, I didn’t intend to tinker when I got into airguns, but found that the RWS 850 wasn’t quite what I needed after buying it. That is when I started seriously tinkering! And yes, it has cost more than an S410 over a period of several years. However, I never would have been able to spend that much at once or my wife would have killed me! If the Discovery had been out, perhaps I would just be enjoying it…?

    LOL!

    Thanks,
    .22 multi-shot


  38. I have to go along with BB on this one. I would not recommend attaching the barrel to the air reservoir. I have a Daystate Harrier that came with a barrel band at the muzzle. It is a slip fit on the barrel and attached with set screws on the air cylinder. After shooting it for several years with the band Tom recommended trying it with the band removed and it is more accurate across its entire pressure range now. I also have the Air Arms Pro Target MK3 and it came with the barrel floating.


  39. anonymous,

    I agree with B.B. as well, I won’t be gluing any more either….I hope and am willing to pay more for the Discovery II to have a stronger barrel, 8 or 10 shot repeater, power adjuster and noise reducer….in that order…keeping it under $500 without the pump or scope…
    I don’t know about price, but I was told by someone I was asking about a gun, that he saw someone shooting one like I just described, and got to shoot it…It was very good…It might have been a personal custom job, but I think I heard him say the shooter was a Crossman tech….
    we can hope it’s the truth….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  40. Bill,

    Just like with firearms, people tend to suggest a personal favorite when offering advice.
    I am sure Wayne has good intentions, but a high end PCP is not how you describe your current needs.

    I have not bought my first PCP yet, but have 30 years of spring gun experience. True high power spring guns at the price point you are seeking are typically vary harsh and unpleasant.

    (Wayne – the S410 is tied at the top of my list, based on the rate you acquire new airguns, I think it is only a matter of time before you report on an FX Whisper.)

    If noise is not an issue, then the Discovery sounds like the ticket for you.

    Surprise. B.B. was right.

    Volvo

    p.s. – sad to hear the Beeman name associated with department store stop-gap guns.


  41. Volvo,
    After you have shot the S410, you’ll be an unpaid salesperson too….. take it from the top of your list, and move it to your shoulder…

    I said the Discovery is best too….That is on the way to winning the bet for me…The Discovery, a scuba tank, fill adapter, and scope….almost a third the way….But then….

    If only I could get two shots off a little quicker…or I wish I could get 40 or 50 shots without loss of POI, and just another 150fps and a little more accuracy…..And then you have it…The Air Arms S410 to use the tank from 3,300 down to 2,200 pounds, then switch to the adapter with the Discovery fitting, and use the tank down to 1,400 if you want to stretch it…1,700 for best results…

    The S410 and Discovery with two scuba tanks and fill adapters…the best things a guys $1,500 could buy…maybe…especially if your friend is shooting the Discovery and you are shooting the S410…

    And thanks, my intentions are for the best for all..bless you all for your kindness…

    Notice Bill,
    If you buy the S410 carbine and scuba set up, you can stay under the $1,500 and still get lots of extra magazines….. and win the bet…..But, If I were you, I would rather have the Discovery than the HW-30, especially if I had a scuba tank…

    Check your budget, I,m sure your wife wants you to have it now….

    Wayne,


  42. Wayne,

    FX also makes a 12 shot Monsoon that is a semi auto PCP. (16 shots in .177)
    With a Walnut stock it sell for $1649.00.
    I’m going to Vegas next week, so maybe…………
    As far as being “an unpaid salesperson” – ouch.
    I already sell new homes in the worse market since 1938………..

    Volvo


  43. Wayne,

    I appreciate your enthusiasm!

    The rent by mail thing is something I’ve always wondered about. It works for DVD’s, why wouldn’t it work for more expensive stuff?

    The person pays the rental fee on a credit or debit card and you put a charge against the card for the replacement value of the gun if you need the security. (If it is someone you haven’t dealt with multiple times, or don’t have confidence in). You ship the gun with that as security.

    When the gun is returned, you reverse the charge, and voila, you’ve made a percentage of the value of the gun, and are out nothing, the person interested has gotten a chance to play with the gun and decided if it fits them, and hasn’t had to make a big investment to find out that it isn’t what was needed or desired.

    If I could run down to Ashland I would, but it’s about an 8-9 hour trip, and with gas at $4.25, I’d rather pay a rental fee!

    Bill


  44. Bill,
    That sounds like it would work, maybe we can try it on the S410 carbine, it’s under 6 pounds, I plan on ordering with my next order with PA……I’ll send it to you first….OUCH…I wouldn’t be the first one to use it….but I would make some money…let’s try it….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range



  45. Volvo,

    It must be hard selling homes, in this market…..
    Hey instead of Vegas, come on up to our Seven Feathers casino… just 80 miles north of us… the odds are better…and you can try out the S410 at my place on the way…see some plays…some fishing, hiking in the wilderness…

    My wife and I went up to Mt Ashland this morning…up there by 6am and back by 8am only 20mins driving each way….and your on the Pacific Crest Trail…no noise at all…super clean air…it was very uplifting…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  46. Wayne, that sounds like a great idea!

    Let me know!

    Do you have an email at the range or home so we don’t have to use the blog posts to communicate?

    Bill



  47. Bill with the rockchuck problem,

    Don’t take Wayne’s bet until you read this.

    I could have written your initial blog(s) Bill. Six months ago I had a large ground squirrel, muskrat and RACCOON problem at my second home located in the Colorado rockies. Now it’s a small problem. Since this house is at approximately 9,800 feet in elevation, has nearby neighbors and coons are hard to put down, I asked this blog for help in choosing a powerful, easy to use air gun. I’ve shot firearms all my life and was wary about needing to learn a “new hold” to be accurate with an air rifle. I didn’t want to get involved with scuba tanks and pressurizing an air gun when I may only have a one shot opportunity for hours. My choice, with great advice from B.B., was the RWS Diana 54. This is one of the few spring guns that is recoiless to the shooter and doesn’t require learning a new hold to shoot accurately. If the two coons, numerous ground squirrels and several muskrats COULD testify they would confirm its power. I’m not writing to make your decision more difficult. I’m not even suggesting that a springer may solve your problem as efficiently as the discovery or other pcp. I am writing to alert/warn you that I said I’m not going to spend $1,500.00 to solve this problem. Well…..the diana 54, a new leapers 3-12-44AO with sidewheel and illuminated mil dot (for coons), a longshot microshot scope level, B.B.’s new base for this gun, etc. and I’m there. No regrets. This is an accurate set up that is just as satisfying to shoot at 75 yards as my 300 Weatherby mag with handloads at 500 yards. Please don’t be surprised at an air gun addiction. Your next step up in an air gun will be accurate, therefore fun to shoot (even targets), cheaper than our firearm ammunition and no traveling to the range (gas is 4.35 per gallon here now). Be careful of Wayne’s bet. Six months ago I would have taken his bet and would now be making payments to him. kevin



  48. Kevin,

    Thanks!

    If I wasn’t already committed to a big dollar custom rifle build it might be possible that I would be in danger, but?

    I’ve looked at that Diana previously. I used to play paintball, I used 4500 PSI nitrogen for that, so I already have a high pressure tank, but all the extra paraphenalia for the PCP’s limites how far from the house I could go.

    BUT….you guys are starting to scare me, since I’m beginning to get a new bug!

    Bill


  49. Kevin,

    Well put…that is why I’m starting a range and rental…now maybe rent by mail….think of all us “boomers” out there with SS checks in the mail box and looking for fun….

    I’m thinking the video part of the range might be very popular….like you say gas is so high…You could watch someone shoot…learn techniques…If I can get some pros to come for us to watch…I better start working on that…(get the targets first, Wayne, PA was suppose to have them by now, those lazy Spainards at Gamo, I guess) I’m always ahead of myself….

    So how is this, watch, then I’ll send it to you to try.. you buy it up front, but get a refund less a rental fee….This is Bill and two other bloggers idea….I think it is great….I don’t know what the fee should be…we have to work out the math…with shipping and all…
    I do get the best FED EX rates, because we ship the heavy raised bed kits all over the country..( in the spring time we spend 10 or 12 K per week with them..

    Help me work out something that is good for you people and me too….

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range and Rentals
    (it’s so long I leave that “Rentals” part off)


  50. Wayne,

    Thanks!

    One issue is going to be fills for those of us that don’t have PCP’s already.

    I do have a 4500 PSI Nitrogen tank, but it probably doesn’t have the proper airgun fittings. I wouldn’t be averse to buying them, just need to know what to buy!

    Bill



  51. Bill,

    Wow, 4500…the scuba tanks are supposed to be 3,000, but the guy at the scuba store says, 3,300 is totally safe…I don't know what the difference might be in the tanks, but keep in mind the gauges would need to hold up to the extra pressure too. I know the scuba shop's compressor goes to 4500, because they have 6 large tanks that hold that much…and they fill the scuba tanks from them…so they could fill a tank to more pressure…we plan to buy a set of the large tanks to leave one at the scuba store and let them fill them for us at their time frame…

    In this case, Bill I need another fill adapter for a scuba tank, so that could be part of this deal as well…I found that the scuba store people very helpful, if I was waiting calmly, looking at the diving stuff…it takes a long time to fill a tank properly, other wise you loose air when the air temps balance….the scuba tanks come with the shut off valve and are ready for the fill adapter from PA that works with the Discovery…I just took off the foster fitting and put on the one that came with the S410…With two fill adapters and the different fittings..I just move S410 adapter to a new tank and that tank gets the Discovery adapter for another 2,000 shots with that gun…for 4 to 5,000 shots per scuba tank…that is a lot of pumping I didn't do….for a $5.00 fill..but watch out before you know it you'll have a wet suit… I got two tanks for $150 each filled the first time for free..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals


  52. Paintball guns can use compressed air, Nitrogen (compressed air is like 80% nitrogen anyway. the Nitrogen tank was for that, and is equivalent to about 4 scuba tanks), or on CO2, which freezes the valves if used to make to many fast shots.

    I had to build my own valve for the nitrogen tank for paintball. So I guess I could again if necessary and I could get the proper airgun fittings!

    Bill



  53. Bill,

    Yes, we do need a website..my son built our raised garden bed site, and he is busy making a version for the Aussie distributor we are setting up, it’s almost spring “Down Under”…so the Air Rifle site has to wait awhile…
    I don’t have the field target course set up yet as well..little by little…this is supposed to be a hobby business for me…

    Wayne,


  54. Bill,

    I am interested in the details of you’re custom valve for that nitrogen tank! You don’t happen to have a blog you would write that up on do you (with complete details like material choices and why, getting it to seal properly, safety issues, etc.)?

    Thanks,
    .22 multi-shot


  55. .22 multishot,

    Are you speaking of the paintball valve or the one I may have to make for an airgun?

    I built that paintball valve so long ago I can’t even remember the details, it just works.

    If I do build a nitrogen tank valve, I’ll be happy to write it up.

    Bill


  56. Bill,

    I mean the paintball valve for the nitrogen tank. To bad it was so long ago.

    Out of curiosity, what airgun are you thinking of making a valve for and why?

    .22 multi-shot


  57. Wayne,

    Nice Blog! A good read, too, about your progression with this experiment. Keep up the good work and have fun!

    /Dave







  58. ntoolose,

    You have posted to a blog written in 2008. There arn't alot of us checking the old blogs for new comments, if you want to reach hundreds/thousands of readers please repost your question on the current blog which is written Monday to Friday. http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog Off topic questions are always welcome. Hope to see you there. It's a great place to learn about air guns, get problems solved and meet great people.

    Mr B.

    My suggestion would be to call Crosman's customer service at 1-800-7AIRGUN (724-7486)


  59. ntoolose

    You will need to call Crosman to order the part, but you will need the part number to order it.

    The Disovery barrel band is part number 1761-021. You will also need the two set screws to tighten it down. They are part number 88-089.

    Let us know how it went on the current day's blog as referenced by Mr B.


  60. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is a simple solution for eliminating valve lock.

    It requires a second "staging" air chamber and a regulator between the main reservoir and the staging chamber. For example, design the gun valve to operate at 1500 PSI, then place a regulator in the gun set to 1500 PSI. Pump the gun up to maximum pressure and then all of the shots will be consistent until the reservoir pressure drops below the reg pressure of 1500 PSI (arbitrary).

    Of course, this will make the gun FAR more expensive.


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