Don’t use airguns for self-defense

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

I periodically get inquiries about which airguns are best for self-defense. These generally come from countries other than the U.S., though I’ve had some come in from this country, as well.

The inquiries come from two directions that I would like to address today. The first group thinks that certain airguns look so realistic that they should have the ability to stop or to deter violence just because they’re present. Let me be very specific. I’m talking about the very realistic-looking handguns like the Walther CP99, the M1911A1 pistol and the Beretta 92FS.

Beretta 92FS air pistol

The Beretta 92FS air pistol looks very realistic.

These are very realistic guns, make no mistake. But the premise the people are using is flawed. They think that if they’re able to display a realistic-looking gun, any danger will be averted. They’re counting on the dangerous people having the same common sense they have. After all, if they saw a gun they would feel threatened. They respect guns, and they imagine that others do the same.

Well, they don’t! Most criminals and bad people have either a low sense of respect for things like guns, or they figure that you will not have the nerve to follow through on the threat you seem to be making. In other words, these kinds of people are not threatened by real firearms, either. The realism of your pellet pistol is lost on them.

The other thing about criminals is they aren’t always sane or in their right minds. Either they’re deranged and will ignore what rational people see as a threat, or they may be so high on drugs or alcohol that they can’t reason. Either way, they’ll behave in irrational ways and the idea they can be threatened is either foolish because they don’t care or dangerous because it provokes them.

Defensive gun training
They teach you in a concealed handgun course to never threaten with your gun. If you pull the gun, be ready to use it immediately. In fact, in most places it’s illegal to show a concealed handgun in public. Either shoot or don’t shoot, but never threaten with a gun!

The only defense use a realistic airgun has is to train the shooter to use the firearm it mimics. You can learn how to draw the gun, how to control the trigger and how to breathe when you shoot with a realistic airgun. But that’s it. Take it no farther because a pellet gun is not a self-defense weapon.

What about powerful airguns like big bores?
The other group that considers using airguns for self defense has looked at the power an airgun can deliver. They see the big bore airguns and read about people taking deer and wild hogs with them, so they wonder why they can’t use them for protection.

Here’s the reason — a deer will never stalk you and wait till your guard is down to kill you. Not that deer can’t kill humans — they certainly can. But they normally don’t try to. Shoot a deer and it runs away almost every time.

Now, substitute a grizzly bear for the deer and ask the same question. Would you use a powerful air rifle to hunt a grizzly bear? If you do, you’re foolish because a grizzly bear will try to kill you if you don’t kill him first. Even a wild hog has been known to charge a hunter after being shot, which is why most hog hunters carry a large-caliber sidearm to back themselves up.

And a big bore airgun only has a few shots before the air pressure drops so low that the gun isn’t useful. So, if you don’t have a perfect first shot you’re quickly headed into some very risky territory.

Nothing is ever guaranteed
And even firearms aren’t always enough. Think you have enough gun? Maybe, but don’t bet on it. Every big-caliber gun has failed to kill in some circumstances. There was an intruder who took a 240-grain jacketed bullet from a .44 Magnum revolver in his left eye and he fell down a flight of stairs, then got up and walked out of the house. Police found him dead by his car around the block, but that’s not the point. The point is, even Dirty Harry’s gun wasn’t enough to drop him in his tracks.

No doubt there’s someone somewhere in the world who needed a second .50-caliber BMG round to put him down for keeps.

Play for keeps
If you have to use deadly force, make certain that it’s really deadly. Be prepared to go all the way or don’t go in that direction to start with. You are far better off using a tactical flashlight and some kind of club than to pull a pellet or BB pistol and have your bluff called.

82 thoughts on “Don’t use airguns for self-defense

  1. I’m with B.B. One should never pull a gun unless they intend to use it.

    Pellet pistols and airsoft pistols can be used for training, but hoping to deter a criminal with one is just plain crazy.

    Bub


  2. It depends on what your options. If I were in a life-threatening situation, and all I had to defend myself with was my Umarex Walthers PPK/S CO2 pistol, that is what I would have to use. If the use of it was all I had, it would be stupid not to. Empty it into his face and knock him over the head with it.

    Yes, there is a possibility that could get me killed. I would rather be killed fighting back with whatever means I had.

    Until it is replaced with a powder-burning version.

    Les


    • Les,

      Yes, of course you are right.

      What I meant was people shouldn’t plan to use an airgun for self-defense. So many newcomers think it’s perfectly okay, and I was trying to identify the pitfalls.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        For those who DO plan to defend their home with an airgun, I’d recommend the Sam Yang 909s as the best blunt object Pyramyd Air sells. Keep it where one would normally keep a baseball bat, a couple feet from the front and back doors, in the bedroom closet, in the broom closet near the kitchen, in the garage. (I have a lot of ball bats hidden around; a lot cheaper than buying a bunch of Sam Yangs.)

        That Sam Yang has the length and heft to make it one heck of a bean breaker — just don’t cut your hand on the front sight as you grasp the muzzle end of the barrel. Also, do not have it charged with HPA. Bust that tube on the intruder’s head, and the explosion could be nasty!

        Michael


        • Sorry but it seems you are implying the 909s is only good for use as a bat! Well, you take one and use it as a bat, and I will take one and use as a gun, come on who is going to be left standing here, votes on this one I think!


    • I guess it all depends on WHO you are facing. For some criminals the sting of 15 bb’s in the face is a nasty surprise. For someone with a real gun chances are you’ll be shot just to make you stop hitting him with bb’s along with some very choice words shouted at you that I can’t say here. In that case I’d say your chances of surviving the fight are slim to none. It might be more effective to drop the bb gun and beg for your life. That or maybe it would be more effective to go spend the money on a cheap pistol down at the local gun shop Some of the pocket pistols are about as cheap as a moderately priced pellet pistol.

      Or do what I do. Go get the basic tools and build you a gun to your specs. It’s not all that hard to do. To make an AK47 you need a drill press, spot welder and a 12 ton shop press. All are fairly cheap and it’s perfectly legal to do as long as you aren’t selling it. (and no background checks.)



  3. Yeah, this has come up on the Canadian Airgun Forum a couple of times that I know of. Fortunately every response that was given to the question pointed out just how foolish packing one of these around would be. Threats are rarely a good idea. Threats that you can’t back up with action are NEVER a good idea! Of course, up here the most likely result of carrying one of these around wouldn’t be the owner frightening off a criminal but the owner being tackled and handcuffed by the RCMP and then spending some time in the station lockup explaining what the h**l they were thinking!


    • It’s interesting reading many of the replies regarding the use of air powered guns for home protection or self defense, I have been very interested in this area for some time now, as I am a bit of doomsday prepper, hahah. I don’t live in the USA but in Europe and not in some huge urban sprawling city, where you normally expect to find the drug dudes and the psychos on mass. I and thinking defending yourself against normally sane people who are driven to rob, steal, or kill for their own survival, for whatever reason. As we live in a rural area I have a Sam yang 909s and the Hatsan AT-P2 .25 mm combo pistol/gun. I have also noted from many essays written by experienced and respected pro’s in this area that unless you are hitting some guy with a barrett 50 cal or 50cal machine gun, almost nothing is guaranteed to be 95 or 100% successful at stopping a bad guy. But let’s be reasonable, Who do you know or does anyone know, anyone, who is not high on some trip out drug trip that’s going to face off against 160ft/lb and 143 grain metal ball travelling at around 7 or 800ft/ps from say 20 to 60 or yards away, it’s gonna wreck you, and if it does not kill you, you’re not going to want to keep coming, and you’re probably going to crawl away and die somewhere.
      Also, I agree, we would all love a 50 cal magnum pistol, or an AR15, but there’s a lot of people on the planet who cannot obtain anything like this, due to restrictions, so I am not suggesting these air weapons) are as good or better it’s the best alternative we can get. Now for all those baseball bat fans out there. Who are you standing with the guy with the big bore 909s with a good scope on it from 50 yards, or the other guy who is stood there with his baseball bat at 50 yards? He is going down before the bat guy ever get to me, and he manages to get to me after a could shots have hit him, hand to hand I think I will then have the advantage, as he will be bleeding out quite fast, I would think. So, Don’t put ultimate faith in reasonable air powered guns to defend you, but they do give you a good head start on the conflict. But don’t stand off against the guy with the AK47, cos your probably going to loose, that’s how I see it! Use your common sense and way up the options and odds!


  4. It is interesting that people would think about using an airgun for “self-defense”, and at the same time, ignore the obvious alternate choices (for those with no access to real guns): knives, daggers, clubs, axes and other implements that can be used with much more authority than look-alikes.
    For those who ask, I always give them the “dangerous big game animal” example: would you use it to hunt xxxxx? Replace “xxxx” with whatever animals he/she may be well aware of (big cats like jaguars, cougars and leopards work fine) and they will quickly see the problem they are facing. By the way, wild boars are my favorite.


    • How about a RedRyder? Is it solid enough to be used as a club? In the event it broke it could be easily replaced ;-)

      Ever heard of the guy who escaped a grizzly attack with a small .22 short pocket pistol?

      Over all the years I’ve been nature hiking in the northern Montana backwoods, I’ve never went out without my little Jetfire in my pocket, and I’ve never gone out alone because I’ve always followed the two cardinal rules for hikers:
      (1) ALWAYS pack a very small, lightweight gun to use for signaling if you become lost, for shooting small game in the event you run out of food, and for personal defense against predators even if you’re only hoping the sound of the shot will scare them away.
      (2) NEVER go hiking alone in the wilderness, and always use the “buddy system” so there will be someone to go for help if anything happens to either of you. Since it is imperative that you follow the “buddy system”, it doesn’t matter if your “buddy” is a friend, companion, spouse, or even an in-law you don’t like as long as there are always two of you for mutual support.

      While nobody will argue that a well-placed shot is very effective from any type or caliber of firearm, even most “experts” will scoff at the thought of a little .22 short as being very effective at stopping a human – much less something 15-times as large and powerful as a full-grown grizzly bear. However, I am here to give testimony that all of you alleged “experts” are totally wrong!!!

      I just safely returned from a very harrowing experience that happened during a rather short hike to only explore a possible new route to my favorite hiking trail that was less dangerous from rockslides that happen very often on my usual route. It was only about a 30 minute hike, so I only stuffed a single .22 short into the barrel of my Jetfire before slipping it into my pocket along with an 8-shot magazine just in case I needed it. Since there was nobody else around at the time, I had to rely on my idiot brother-in-law to take along as my “buddy” for the short trip.

      We hadn’t gone more than a half-mile into the heavy timber when, out of nowhere, there suddenly came a huge sow grizzly bear crashing through the brush and charging straight toward us at full speed. I guess she must have had a cub around because she was mad as hell and coming to kill both of us in an instant. There was no place to run, no time to run (can’t outrun a grizzly anyway), and I’m standing there with nothing but a tiny little Beretta Jetfire loaded with one .22 short in my hand.

      Laugh if you wish at its effectiveness, but it only took one well-placed shot to my brother-in-law’s kneecap and I was able to escape a major bear attack by only walking away at a brisk pace

      J-F


      • Excellent! I was thinking exactly that you only had to be able to run faster than your brother in law, not the bear. A classic example of killing two birds with one stone or in this case, one .22 short.

        Fred DPRoNJ


      • Howdy J, As that wise old sage, Larry the Cable Guy sez: “Don’t care who ya are, that’s funny schtuff right there”. Moral of the story, if anybody asks ya ta go hikin’ w/’em, best be askin’ a few questions…
        Well done. Have a great week & shoot/ride safe.



    • Fred,

      That assumes that the person asking the question lives in an area where (s)he can legally carry one of those alternatives for self-defense on his/her person. That’s not always a valid assumption. Take the UK for example. Its illegal to carry anything but a non-locking (slipjoint?) pocket knife with a blade less than 3 inches in public without a good reason in the UK. And its illegal to carry even that if you are even considering using it as a weapon. Taking that into consideration, I really doubt that police would let you walk down a street in London with a tomahawk, mace (medieval not modern sense of the word), billy club, sap… strapped to your side, though you might get away with a canister of pepper spray in your pocket or a walking stick/cane.

      I’m not saying that I think an airgun is a good option for self-defense. It isn’t. I’m just saying that automatically assuming that someone could just pick from one of the conventional, non-firearm options isn’t always accurate. Also you need to remember that given how closely tied firearms are to what people think of as an effective weapon in Western cultures, sometimes dum-dums ask about using a stand-in. The best thing to do is simply explain why it isn’t a good option.

      J.



      • J.

        OK, agreed. Not all “alternates” are really available, depending where you live. My point is: why people ask about airguns for self-defense? Because they look like real guns. Not effectiveness, nor convenience, just looks! An umbrella might be a better solution…
        Now, pocket knives… really? Not even a small Swiss Army knife? Even that is illegal?


        • Wikipedia actually has a pretty good summary of UK laws concerning the carrying of knives if you’re interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#United_Kingdom

          As for the bit about Swiss Army knives… Provided the blade isn’t longer than 3 inches and it doesn’t have a locking mechanism (IE a ring lock, slide-lock, or a lock-back design) it should be legal in the UK. The classic Swiss Army knife (at least the ones I have) have blades less than 3 inches and don’t have a locking mechanism, so they would be legal as long as you didn’t plan on using them as a weapon.

          As for why they’re asking about an airgun for self-defense… I get that. Believe me I get it. I’ve had to explain more than once to dum-dums asking this very question on Yahoo Answers why air-pistols suck as a self defense tool. And I always tell them the same thing. That being that in a self-defense situation, you’re not trying to hurt the other guy or kill the other guy. You’re trying to stop the threat immediately. And an air-pistol just isn’t going to do that. Which is why you use something more powerful instead of an air-pistol.


    • Another idea that was given to me by a cop is carry a small canister of pepper spray. It’s not lethal and it’s hard for someone attacking you to continue attacking if he can’t see. Someone all coked up might not care that you pepper sprayed them but likely you can hose down somebody that is not and have them helpless. then pick up something heavy and hit them with it….repeatedly. aim for the gun hand and head in that order.


  5. I think you missed the single most important reason not to do this: once you pull out your very real looking air pistol, you have effectively given licesnse to the other person to pull their very real gun to use on you. And if this confrontation occurs anywhere other than in your own home after an obvious break in, you will lose the gun fight, and the other guy will win the legal fight (in your home you will loose the gun fight, and potentially weaken the case against the assailant – since you likely won’t be around to tell your side of the story).

    This builds off the “never pull it unless you are going to use it” theory, and of course once you show your air gun, they will use their real gun . . . .

    Alan in MI


    • Alan,

      The Las Vegas police have a name for this. They call it suicide by cop, because when a street person wants to end it in that city, they do just as you described. The cop then shoots them in defense and they don’t have to pull the trigger in themselves.

      B.B.


  6. B.B.

    Many thanks for this article.
    Years pass by, but still there is someone asking about self-defence with an airgun. It has become a standard answer – “First, file your front sight down” (just don’t ask me for standard explanation in case noob asks “What for?” :) )
    I guess it must be re-posted every year, or provided with a quick link – just to save time and nerve cells.

    duskwight


  7. In Minnesota about the only place you can legally use lethal force is inside your home. I have a 9 mm handgun for self defense and the only time I’ve ever taken it out (I’ve owned it for about 3 years) to check something out in the house was when we heard a large crash in the living room. Turned out it was a poorly hung picture that fell….I’m a very poor handyman. Now I keep a smallish baseball bat by the bed and the 9 mm only sees daylight when training/target shooting. I feel better having the gun in the house, but the best strategy is probably never to take it out in the first place.



    • Fred,

      I had a couple issues with their testing procedures, but Jamie and Adam on Mythbusters busted that as a myth, at least for close quarters. Time and again the knife would have been thrust into the shooter’s chest before the muzzle of the handgun could be raised even to waist level.

      Michael


      • the trick here is to be colse to the assailant (assuming you have the knife) but I don’t know if I’d be fast enough or even want to do anything if the assailant or intruder already had his weapon drawn and pointed at me.

        Hope to never have to find out.

        Fred DPRoNJ



      • Unfortunately a knife puncture is not debilitating. One bullet to the chest is not even debilitating in many cases. This is why the pistol training is two quick shots in the chest (slows them down, most of the time), followed by one in the head (stops them, most of the time). One stab wound in the chest will not stop the pistol from continuing to its destination. It will not be debilitating (most of the time). And if you don’t have the fortitude to kill a human being with two followed by one then leave your gun at home locked in your closet otherwise you’ll be dead and your gun will end up in someone else’s hand as a murder weapon someday.

        I have read of several incidents in the local newspaper where people have been shot and didn’t even know it. Some didn’t even go to the hospital until the next day. I’ve even read where they have been shot multiple times and still continued their attack. So if you’re going to shoot, you’d better learn how to do it right.
        -Chuckj


        • Depends on the knife. An East German AK47 bayonet will dig through a perp’s heart. Especially effective when attached to your AK47 where it becomes a spear that also fires rounds as well. On the battlefield of today a bayonet is about as effective as standing up and raising a middle finger but in tight quarters it’s quite effective. (yeah, I can be a bit psychotic when defending my home and life.)


          • john,
            True, but I would venture to say if the burgler was standing in your bedroom doorway you ain’t gonna git no AK-47 with a bayonet on it out from under your bed and get a stab at him. You aren’t even going to get any knife out, run at him, and stab him faster than he can shoot. Remember he’s got his out already. He isn’t walking around your house with his gun in a holster.
            -Chuckj


            • You are also assuming he won’t be making noise breaking a window or kicking in the door. I might not have time to fix that bayonet, but I have quite a few options still. I definitely have time to grab the Hungarian AMD65 and get it ready. Plus at night i have the advantage of knowing my environment in the dark. He does not. If I’m up I still have enough blind corners that I still hold the advantage there. If I did have the time to fix a bayonet for some reason, which takes around 5 seconds, I have an effective spear that he could be surprised with not to mention the shots fired once he’s impaled on my bayonet.

              Out in public I’m not likely to use any of those things since I’m alergic to jail, but I feel reasonably sure I will not be attacked in public. i haven’t ever been shot while in public except during military service, and never in this country.


              • john,
                True, I’m just trying to make sure you’re ready for the guy standing in your bedroom doorway also. And remember he may have an accomplice.
                -Chuckj


                • Don’t worry about that. I have a nice drum magazine and enough ready fire power to take on multiple threats always at hand at home. Failing to get hold of that I can always find something to darn near beat an intruder to death with in easy reach. I’m not someone that any criminal wants to face in a dark confined space. Even in broad daylight I’m a bit intimidating. I’m fairly safe even being as close as i am to the bad neighborhoods. But if they do try it, they will find I’m quite formidable.


  8. I am a former police officer. Your advice is spot on. The problem with presenting a weapon is that now the situation is escalated. It is a flawed premise to present a weapon with the intention of strictly trying to deter a situation. Your also banking on the fact that an intruder will de-escalate his/her intentions.

    Luckily during my tenure as a police officer (just shy of 5 years), I only had to present my weapon a handful of times. It also takes a great deal of training to de-escalate a situation. Unfortunately there are several cases of police officers discharging weapons after they have controlled a suspect. It can happen even to trained personnel (nerves, increased adrenalin, tunnel vision all contribute to this).

    Also for every case of a homeowner killing an violent intruder with a .22lr , there are countless cases of people (especially those hopped up on PCP or the like) that can take multiple rounds from a 9mm, 40cal and still continue with their intentions. I have a home defense weapon and hopefully it will collect dust with the exception of range training. A better plan is to have backup options (i.e Louisville Slugger, situational awareness, et al). Heaven forbid you have to actually use it in a defensive role but if you do , be prepared to use it. (remember ending a home invasion threat is the first of many hurdles. There will be legal issues, emotional issues, and others that will follow with any incident).


  9. There’s another option. One that Tom and I have recommended to friends who are not allowed to bring fireams into their house and those whom we know would never pull the trigger.

    How about a high-lumen flashlight with a tactical bezel? These are available on Amazon at surprisingly affordable prices. Here are some I found with a quick search. They range from 1800 to 3200 lumens:

    http://www.amazon.com/ZY-35-28LA-Rechargeable-Flashlight-rechargeable-included/dp/B009SJ3IOY/ref=sr_1_35?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1361896969&sr=1-35&keywords=tactical+flashlight+3000+lumens

    http://www.amazon.com/ZY-24SY-Rechargeable-Flashlight-rechargeable-included/dp/B009SJ3IXK/ref=sr_1_37?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1361896969&sr=1-37&keywords=tactical+flashlight+3000+lumens

    http://www.amazon.com/Nitecore-TM11-Monster-Lumen-Flashlight/dp/B005UEEVGA/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1361896923&sr=1-4&keywords=tactical+flashlight+3000+lumens

    http://www.amazon.com/Ultrafire-Lumens-Zoomable-26650-Flashlight/dp/B0092Q1N7W/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1361896923&sr=1-3&keywords=tactical+flashlight+3000+lumens

    There are much higher-lumen lights, too.

    Flash that bright light into a perp’s eyes…up close & personal or from across the room. It should be blinding. This gives you a chance to run to safety or call the cops. If the perp continues to advance, smash the tactical bezel into his eye socket or temple. That’s the purpose of a tactical bezel. In fact, COPS magazine ran an article last year about how to use tactical bezels for self-defense.

    If the light is on long enough, it gets so hot that you can burn your hand if you touch the bulb or the glass in front of the bulb. Bury that thing into an attacker’s eye socket for additional reasons for them to stop in their tracks.

    The advantages over a baseball bat are significant. You have 2 lines of defense. First, the blinding light. If the thug is high on drugs, his pupils are seriously dilated…and gathering 3200 lumens will be quite painful. The other is the tactical bezel, which has sharp edges that will do some noticeable damage.

    My brother carries a small flashlight when he walks his friendly little poodle, which is usually before sun up and after sunset. There’s a chihuahua that wanders his street about the same time and intimidates his friendly poodle and literally blocks the way. He told me that he shined a flashlight we gave him one Xmas into the eyes of the chihuahua. The chihuahua froze in place and did nothing (and it’s not even a very high-lumen light). My brother & his dog simply walked around the chihuahua and went about their business. Looks like some dogs learn pretty fast :-)

    Tom’s a flashlight collector, and we have a number of flashlights with tactical bezels. But we also have guns readily available should anyone try something stupid. I’m pretty sure a 3000-lumen flashlight will be making its way into our house real soon.

    Edith


    • Don’t forget the flashing strobe option on the cool flashlight that B.B. recommended. You’ve got the equal brightness plus the disorientation induced by the flash that will have a similar effect to a flash-band grenade. Some attackers might even have an epileptic seizure. These things make great gifts, and I have been spreading the wealth around so to speak.

      Matt61


    • Edith,

      I might also notice that a person who cannot pull the trigger – I doubt one would be able to use such flashlight – guns tend to establish more distant relations between a person and a target, so burying a tactical bezel into living person’s skull may be too brutal for them. And that might also put a user too close to perp, increasing the danger.
      Maybe some taser/flashlight combination would work? Not a firearm, almost no chance to take perp’s life but allows to keep the precious distance and stuns quite ok.
      Well, as for me, nothing matches wakizashi, kept at the bedside. Very convincing if a perp has any resemblance of brain and very convenient in close quarters.

      duskwight


      • duskwight,

        Desperate situations call for desperate measures, and people often surprise you with what they’re capable of doing.

        I may have told this story before, but I’m going to retell it because it shows how people get real creative, real brave real quick. You’d think being right in somebody’s face would make it too hard, but that may not always be the case.

        When Tom and I lived in Maryland, there was a woman who was being raped but could not fight off her attacker. She was a young woman but not as strong on the man on top of her. She had no weapons. But she did have a finger with a nail on the end of it. As long as his face was inches from hers, she stuck her finger into his eye socket and pulled out his eyeball. That brought things to an end really fast. And, he was easy to identify in a lineup.

        I looked up “wakizashi” in Google…yeah, that would do the trick if you’re good at handling knives.

        When I wrote my previous comment, I had specific people in mind…and none of them would be able to handle a wakizashi. Shining a flashlight into someone’s eyes would be about the extent of their abilities. Once you’re in the grasp of someone whom you believe may hurt or kill you, you just might get a needed adrenaline rush and go thru with burying the flashlight’s tactical bezel in the perp’s head.

        Edith


  10. BG Farmer and other bp guys,

    OT post…

    Choosing a bp to build is taking some time… This one displays more of the nice maple and has nice lines too! Do you have any better or fill length pics of it? Don’t suppose it really matters since I’ll be changing it to a .58 cal, 44″ D weight Rice barrel, but out would be nice to see the whole rifle in one pic.

    http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/wood_box_rifle.html

    Thanks,
    /Dave



    • Dave,
      I can’t find that one (don’t have the old NC book by Bivins), although I’m not sure how it would be referenced and it looks familiar. If you e-mail Mel Hankla (he owns that website and the KL-rifle one too), he might be able to tell you where to find a full profile or have some more pictures, etc.. I suspect somebody has made a contemporary copy of it, and pictures of that might be useful to you as well. If he says it is in RCA, Ivey, Kindig, or Kentucky rifles and pistols, I will find it for you.


  11. My primary home and elsewhere defense is my brain. One of the tools that goes with that, I have a Polish Radom P64, 9×18 Makarov that fits very well in my pocket and hand (9×18 is right in between a .380 and a standard 9mm Luger in power). I can also hit center of mass at 15 yds every time with it. At home, I have many more options…

    I’m sure everyone here remembers the recent incident where a young kid drive of an attacker with a Daisy BB gun by shooting him in the face. This successful story may mistakenly inspire more people to ask about airguns for protection. In truth, the kid was both lucky and courageous. It could have turned out much worse than it did, but at least the kid wasn’t going out without a fight!

    /Dave



    • In the famous case of the Long Island Lolita, Amy Fisher, and her boyfriend Joey Buttafuoco, Fisher tried to assassinate his wife by meeting her at the door of her house then shooting her in the back of the head with a .25 caliber handgun when she turned to leave. The wife felt like she had a headache and went to lie down… But she did suffer permanent nerve damage to her face. I read that Fisher finally got out of jail and entered a career that was consistent with her behavior beforehand.

      Matt61


    • I’d call that one of the luckiest kids on earth. Most criminals would make a kid pay with their life. But then those red ryders “will put your eye out”….Likely the kid’s attacker didn’t have the belly for a fight which is rarely the case when confronting someone with a bb gun.


  12. Don’t forget that the technology of pepper spray has not stood still more than anything else. I’m very impressed by the video demonstrations of Cold Steel’s Inferno brand although I dare not experiment. In the range where anyone is likely to use a firearm, it is devastating and will cut down people like wheat before the scythe. I wonder if even people high on drugs could resist it.

    Speaking of a range of weapons, I understand that Oscar Pistorius, inside of his fortress, not only had handguns but also a cricket bat and a machine gun. I guess with that arsenal, cutting loose with his 9mm handgun demonstrated some restraint.

    I was quite taken with yesterday’s blog about the AR to wonder about it further. The marksmanship and the equipment are clearly first-rate, but the question about what has been proved is less clear to me. We could say that we have finally proven the accuracy of the AR platform. But could we equally say that we have proven the superiority of the bolt gun platform over the AR instead since the gun itself with its long range accuracy and single loading is functionally identical to a bolt gun? The fact is that the secret to the AR’s accuracy is no mystery. Without the piston that goes with every other semiauto design, it is lighter and less complicated. It has a basic target style geometry and a very light cartridge. It is the most like a bolt gun of any semi-auto design, so wouldn’t it be easier just to get a Savage off the rack rather than applying so much ingenuity to an AR to get it to perform the same way? In terms of the airgun analogy is this not like upping the power on an airgun with a robust powerplant and bullets to equal firearms performance? You can get there, but it would be simpler to just start with the firearm.

    In proving a particular rifle design, perhaps its more useful to look not at the actual parts but at the underlying design concept to see if you are realizing it or working at cross purposes to it. This is what ancient philosophers did in trying to find the essences of things–something BG_Farmer would know more about than me. This effort was largely displaced by modern scientific methods focused on hypothesis and measurement, but maybe there is something to it after all. In our case, the question is not obscure. The AR was designed as an assault rifle, and the question is what is an assault rifle? There are some in the current debate who are claiming that there is no such thing as an assault rifle/weapon and that the name was made up for political purposes. That is just not historically accurate. The assault rifle did emerge at a distinct time and place–on the Eastern Front of WWII. In the quest for effectiveness, the Germans created a gun that could outrange the tommy guns of the Soviets and surpass the firepower of their Mosins. To achieve this, they created a gun with an intermediate cartridge, selective fire, an extended, detachable magazine, and a shorter, lighter profile which was astoundingly successful. The Eastern Front was the supreme contest of violence in human history with the best infantry arms of all times. They put everything and the kitchen sink in there with the biggest tanks, the most exotic weapons like rocket launchers and railroad guns, the vast numbers of soldiers, and the over-the-top, uninhibited behavior of both sides. For an infantry rifle to make the impression that I did says a lot, and the 100 million AKs that were created are a kind of extended compliment to the assault rifle concept which remains state of the art.

    Part of the slipperiness of the assault rifle concept, I think, is that it is not a revolutionary new design like Colt’s invention of the revolver or John Browning’s invention of the recoil operated machine gun. Instead, it is a combination of different features that was more than the sum of its parts. One sees the claim that assault rifles must be full auto. That was obviously a very important feature, but it doesn’t comprehend the whole design. The Eastern Front was awash with automatic weapons. The Germans had the fastest firing machine gun of all times. The Soviets used a tactic of equipping whole armies with submachine guns which would sweep enemy trenches on the attack making it impossible for a defender to raise his head to fire. One more automatic weapon would not have made the difference that the assault rifles did. There was something else which I maintain were all these other features that hit a kind of sweet spot of lethality. For example, if you hit the tommy guns outside of their range, their barrage never gets started. As a related point, even though the Germans were the first to create an official assault rifle, everyone else was moving toward the concept and would have produced one very soon, sort of the way that fundamentally important concepts like calculus in mathematics were independently discovered by different people. It makes you think that there is something there to be discovered. If you extend the power of the M1 Carbine, you’ve got an assault rifle. If you extend the magazine of the original M1Garand chambered for 10 rounds of .276, you’ve got an assault rifle. Shorten the cartridge of the BAR and the G43 semiauto and you’ve got an assault rifle. You can add and subtract evil features and change performance more or less, but there is something to this concept in the same way that a mountain still exists even if no one can say exactly where is its border with level ground.

    So in the case of the AR experiment, does the high target accuracy validate the original assault rifle design? Not obviously. The response, I suppose, would be that it proves the flexibility of the AR design and the virtue of “systems” configurations where you can switch out parts and calibers to adapt to different situations. Maybe. Maybe not. That flexibility depends a lot on just how interchangeable the various parts are and those are deep waters addressed in this report series. And the flexibility argument also has to compete against the simple scenario of two equivalent guns which you can grab and use as the occasion demands. Anyway, one thing that is clear is that B.B. has created material for many blogs to come. :-)

    Matt61


    • matt,
      You made a very good point. Did Tom prove the AR-15 is an accurate rifle or did he prove you can buy stuff to make it a very accurate rifle yet lose its original AR-15 identity? After you’ve replaced the trigger and the entire upper made by someone else is it still an AR-15?
      -Chuckj


    • One sees the claim that assault rifles must be full auto.

      No “claim”… That’s (or had been) the DoD definition: an assault rifle (“assault weapon” is not a recognized term — any weapon is something usable for “assault”) has full or burst mode capability. Semi-auto only is not an “assault rifle” to the military.


      • True. But when i was in the army I used full auto or 3 round burst maybe 3 times in 8 years. All 3 times were on a range where range control instructed us to go to full auto or 3 round burst depending on if we had the M16a1 or M16a2 or M4. Other than that even in combat we never used anything but semi-auto. It was more accurate and didn’t waste ammo hitting nothing. So I’m content having semi-auto only. I don’t see any civilian applications where anyone needs full auto. And I’m as pro-gun as you can get.



  13. Morever. :-) Victor, I’m clearly indebted to your comments yesterday. The Ruger Target 10/22 is a similar case in point. With its heavier weight and forward-leaning profile from the bull barrel, aren’t you giving up the handiness of the carbine for accuracy that will no more than equal a bolt gun? I’m starting to think that my ideal 10/22 is the stock carbine version which is accurate enough to hit reactive targets at 50 yards.

    I differ from you a little bit in the history of the M16. My sense is that accuracy was thrown out the window with the original design and that they were seeking a spray gun. That was another reason for the very light cartridge. In films of Vietnam combat, you will often see soldiers hold their M16s over a parapet with their arms while keeping their heads down and spray the wide world on full auto without even looking. The accuracy that came out of this design, as far as I can tell, was mostly a surprise, sort of the way the 1911 turned out to be accurate even though it was designed for close-in rapid fire. The accuracy of the AR platform was only dug out with much effort as a result of the American fixation on rifle marksmanship, spearheaded by the Marine Corps with their A2 modifications and was not an original design parameter.

    Michael, worse and worse, cheetahs do not thrive in captivity for some unknown reason, so they are at even more risk than the other animals.

    Matt61



      • The original design was to be a military rifle. The first was the AR-10 in 7.62 NATO. Next, the AR-15 was made in .223 and later the AR-18 (Another Story). The first AR’s were accurate for a military rifle with good ammo. My Colt AR-15 SP-1 is the civilian version of the original AR-15 military rifle. It will shoot 1 1/2 inches @ 100 yds. with the right ammo.

        The smaller caliber was wanted so one can carry more ammo for the same weight. The US Air Force was the first to use the AR-15.

        Mike


    • matt,
      “…spray the wide world on full auto without even looking…” I believe what you are describing is suppressive fire. Not a new tactic, and can be done with any gun. While this is going on other guys with the same weapons with more precise intentions are carrying out the real and more precise objective. The M16 needs to be able to do both.
      -Chuckj


      • We used that tecnique a bit in practice too. They used the overhead spray and pray when they were taking fire from an unknown location and didn’t want to take a critical shot to head or body. The hope is you will make it rain around your unseen sniper and flush them out. It was largely ineffective. It’s also used today when they know where the enemy is but don’t want to risk their lives in the fight. Again it rarely gives much result so the practice is frowned upon and certainly would get someone using it here in America arrested.


    • Matt61,

      From my perspective, the Ruger 10/22 Target model is a compromise for someone who wants accuracy, and the reliability of a 10/22. It is heavier, but not too heavy (for me at least). At first, I thought I would be looking for some tricked-up, accurate model. But the more I read, the more I realized that you end up with something other than a 10/22, and for the extra cost, you might as well buy another rifle altogether. The Ruger 10/22 Target model has a significantly lighter trigger that is fairly crisp.

      So with the Target model you get a rifle that still has 100% Ruger reliability, significantly better accuracy, and a trigger that simply can’t be compared with the standard models. The only thing you compromise on is a little extra weight. But the barrel is fairly short, so with the small amount of extra weight what you really gain is stability, and that is a plus.

      Victor


    • Matt,

      Did you see Jack Hanna interviewed on CNN a couple weeks ago? That Cheetah he brought on was one of the most majestic animals I’ve ever seen.

      Michael


      • No CNN for me, but out of curiosity… Did the Cheetah have a black racing stripe down its spine? Apparently cheetahs with that marking are known as “king cheetahs”. Though only the marking differentiates them from others.

        Cheetahs are always somewhat regal… Remember, they were kept as hunting cats by the pharaohs! And have enough differences from the rest of the cats — claws are only partially retractable, so tend to be dull (dog-like, rather than the thorns of most cats).


  14. There was an intruder who took a 240-grain jacketed bullet from a .44 Magnum revolver in his left eye and he fell down a flight of stairs, then got up and walked out of the house. Police found him dead by his car around the block, but that’s not the point. The point is, even Dirty Harry’s gun wasn’t enough to drop him in his tracks.

    Proof that some criminals aren’t using their brains in the first place.


  15. Thanks for this article. I’ve seen aso many people think their desert eagle pellet pistol will make a criminal think or put his head down if they unload the pellet clip at him. In reality all they will do is make said criminal really angry (understatement of the year?) For this reason I keep a Hungarian AMD65 with a 86 round drum magazine. If I need to use it, a bad guy is not getting away. He’s not getting back up and leaving. and no way he’s going anywhere but the morgue. I’ll use whatever I need from that drum to drop the criminal. If it takes the entire drum to drop some coked up nut case I’ll do just that. I doubt I’ll need more than that.

    Now on the other hand Joe Biden wants us all to violate laws to defend ourselves and leave us between a rock and a hard place. His idea is to take a hillbilly double barrel shotgun out on the porch in the event of a break in and fire both barrels into the air. Not only is this highly dangerous but illegal use of a firearm in most states and will get you arrested in city limits. It also leaves you with a problem of having a potentially panicking criminal in your house with a gun and you no longer have a loaded shotgun. Want to figure out how that ends? Somebody is going to the morgue and it won’t be the criminal with the loaded gun.

    Some will say that you should be reloading after blowing off both barrels. Ever tried to pop the spent shells, fish around in your pocket for 2 more shells and load them while you are busy being killed? It’s far harder to do than when you are skeet shooting at the local rod and gun club.

    The best advice I could give for home defense is keep something large caliber and have more than 10 high power shots in it. The more you have the better off you’ll be especially if you need to deal with more than one threat.


  16. I’m reading all about the politicians and their evil plans to burden us with more gun control laws “for our protection”. I got to thinking about my ex-wife since she couldn’t see any sense in my having a hobby since she had plenty of work for me to do from cooking to washing huge piles of clothes, to washing dishes, cutting the grass, raising the kids, cleaning the house…. the list goes on and on. You should see the fit when I bought a 1953 Packard Clipper to restore. She sold it for $500 and went on a jewelry shopping spree. When I bought an Egyptian AK-47 which are some of the most sought after of the AK’s she took a 3 pound driving sledge to it and destroyed it to teach me a lesson not to have hobbies. She’d have kittens to see me collecting air rifles and buying all the equipment to make my AK47 variants. She would be one of the ones howling for a gun ban just to twist the knife in me since she knows guns have been such a huge part of my life. This doesn’t have anything to do with using bb guns for protection but i needed to get this out of my system.



      • Yeah, But I’m a fairly nice guy so I simply swallowed it. In the end she ended up with nothing in a nursing home alone and died after a good long painful battle with cancer. I figure justice is served and I built a much nicer AK47 than the one she destroyed. Eventually I’ll put together another Maadi and add it to my collection. I’m replacing everything she took or destroyed. It’s taken me 10 years now to put my life back together so far and I’m not quite done.


  17. I have to say that I don’t agree with this statement. Years ago I knew of a man who got into a serious pellet gun fight. He ended up getting shot in the left eye and the pellet lodged into his brain and nearly killed him. You know getting a lead pellet lodged into your brain is not very pleasant. People just don’t realize how truly dangerous airguns really are. I carry my Smith and Wesson mp 45 pistol with me most of the time I go out. Honestly I don’t think you are going to run into a grizzly bear while shopping at the local Acme store. It is my safe assumption that the author B.B. Pelletier is a highly skilled shooter, so this advice from him I feel is a bit off. Frankly if someone tried to rob me, I would pull my gun on them and I wouldn’t bother to issue a threat, i would just shoot. If by chance your thinking well what if the thug has a gun pulled on me first, I would give him what he wants. If he doesn’t kill me, the instant he turns to run he will have sealed his fate. I don’t care how well armed you are you should never turn your back to a possible foe. Just not smart.


    • A good sense of perspective here is to look at the damage even something like the Hatsan AT-P2 .25 cal can do from around 15 to 25 yard, I know as I own one, it will rip through 3 or 4 lays of normal clothing, pass through 50 pages of a paperback book and straight through half inch ply wood board. Obviously distorting and mushrooming as it goes!
      Considering the above what’s it going to do to an attacker armed with a machete, knife, or baseball bat coming toward you at around 15 to 25 yards ? if it’s a rib it’s going to break it and probably still continue for a couple of inches, and arm bone, it’s going to crack or probably break that to, flesh penetration depth without hitting bone, is going to be deep, very deep, it probably going to reach someone’s kidneys, lung, liver, or other vital organs from a front impact. Even hitting someone in the leg, it’s going to rip the muscle to sheds, and break a leg bone if it hit that part. So, again don’t underestimate high powered air or PCP guns ( they can KILL or do excessive or very serious damage to someone). Of course, don’t stand off against the AK47 or an AR15, NOT A GOOD MOVE.

      Going on to something bigger, like the SAM YANG 909s now from 40 to 100, or so yards, this is going to make one hell of a mess if it hits you. 220 grain hollow point in particular is going to be messy. I have shot a 143 grain round ball from 40 yards, at a target which happed to be pinned to a tree, a hard wood tree, and they rip into the tree with real aggression. It ripped a hole the size of a quarter in the bark, and berried itself about 1.5 to 2 inches into the trunk. Ok, think about it what’s going to do to a person, God forbid! At least 50 yards, a 220 grain hollow point is going to rip any part of the person it hits to shreds and probably carry on through and out the other side on its merry little way. Read any docs of low velocity impacts, the bullet delivers all or most of its kinetic energy into the target, the shock factor, and the damage will be very significant probably deadly, it will definitely be smashing and tearing whatever it comes in contact with, to shreds. So don’t underestimate guns like the Big bore PCPs, they are ferocious with their impacts. Anyone who says other wish is a fool or an idiot. But again, don’t stand off against a Barrett, 50 cal sniper rifle, cos your gonna loose. But the guy with the 12 gauge, the machete, the big knife, the baseball bat, from 60 yards away is going down, unless you’re a total lousy shot of course. But we all hope, no one ever actually ever puts any of this to the test, again, GOD forbid it!


  18. One should never bluff in self-defense, even with a real firearm. Once you draw anything that looks like a weapon, then you escalate the confrontation and provoke the belligerent to possibly take drastic all or nothing action. And even if you were the victim being attacked in the first place, the belligerent will claim self-defense as his justification for taking violence against you. If you have decided to fight, then you better make sure that the odds are on your side to win. And you have to have the nerve to use a real weapon. A hasty tactical retreat would definitely be a much better option. Or you could end up dead. An acquaintance of mine intervened in a violent neighborhood altercation. He foolishly decided to stand guard in middle the street in front of the belligerent’s house with a machete to prevent the belligerent from further attacking his victimized friend across the street. The belligerent simply went indoors to fetch his M 16 and promptly gunned him down where he was standing on the road from inside the belligerent’s front yard. The belligerent claimed self-defense even when witnesses said my acquaintance never actually made a move to attack him or enter his property. The police never charged the belligerent because he had powerful political connections. Machete, airgun or handgun, it wouldn’t have made a difference. He bluffed without any real capability of protecting himself weaponwise and in terms of having the nerve to really use a weapon. Should have run away from an obviously bad situation. Just ended up dead. Never bluff with anything that looks like a weapon.


  19. I wouldn’t discount using a big bore pcp air rifle or shotgun as a last-resort self-defense weapon at very close range. Whats the difference between these and blackpowder rifles, muskets and shotguns? Like big-bore airguns, blackpowder weapons are mostly single-shot, very loud and unweildy to use. Didn’t the settlers and Native Americans use these in the old days efficiently enough to kill big wild animals and each other? Of course you would be seriously under-gunned against a modern firearm, but without anything else available in a desperate situation, a big-bore airgun could be used to protect oneself or at least buy time to run away, or reach a better weapon, or get barricaded and call for help. Definitely not your first, second ……or even tenth choice for your home defense gun, but much better than if nothing else was available when you are attacked unprepared.


  20. The theme of self defense seems to have no boundaries except the imagination. Please be well aware that in most legal systems aiming or pointing a gun at some one is considered a felony ,even with an airgun. As for actual acts of shootings the bottom line on how they occur is left to forensics,you don’t want to go there.


  21. If one can not own a real gun or if laws make it too difficult, I really don’t see how unloading a 16 round bb mag at 400FPS in to somebody’s face would not stop them from what they are doing. I just read an article the other day, some meth head broke in to a girls house and he shot her 4 times with the pellet gun in the head and when the cops found her, the BB’s were lodged in her skull and she was unconscious. Luckily she survived and the meth head is in prison now, but this is not the only case I’ve read or heard of where pellet and .177 bb guns have done serious harm. I’ve also read an article about a kid who’s mother was being attacked by some drunk guy and he used his low-powered Red Ryder BB Gun and shot the guy in the face a few times and the guy ran off and got arrested in the hospital where he was getting his bb’s removed from his face. So as much as I agree that airguns are not for self defense, the evidence of them doing serious harm to humans, I can’t agree that if somebody can’t afford or can not own a fire arm, shouldn’t use one. The Umarex Steel Storm, the Drozd or a Air Ordinance .22 Pellet SMG could IMO most definitely be used in the home. And I bet I’ll get a lot of people telling me how foolish I am for saying that, but the fact is in many places these days, it’s not very easy to own a gun, including a few states in America. California, New York, New Jersey, Chicago etc. all have very hard gun laws. Now let me also make it very clear though, that if somebody can own a firearm, get a firearm, because you are a lot more likely to drop a bad guy with that, then a small or big bore airgun. I live in California, I have a real firearm and it’s what I would use in a home defense matter, but our gun laws out here are real bad.


  22. In the Philippines with its draconian firearms laws, some lower income farmers and fishermen have resorted to guarding their farmlands and fishponds with single-shot, 12 gauge, CO2 airguns normally used for bird-hunting, to keep thieves from stealing their produce. These are mostly crudely engineered brass airguns made by small lathe and drill-press equipped machine shops, with “LD” type actions. Not even very safe because their hammers do not have transfer bars to keep them from discharging when dropped or should your finger slip during cocking. But its all they got because firearms are expensive there. I haven’t heard of any actual documented gunfights with these airguns, but I can imagine that at close range, they would make for a very unpleasant experience for any would-be crop thieves. Without reasonable legal access to firearms, people will use airguns, bows and arrows, spears, machetes, axes, hammers and knives to protect themselves. Yes, self-defense will get very Medieval for law-abiding folk if firearms regulation gets unreasonable. Problem is, the criminals are not limited to these primitive options and will get their hands on real guns anyway. And even if you had the time (years) and money to invest into turning yourself into a martial arts black-belter, you will definitely be fatally disadvantaged against a criminal with a gun.


  23. in the woods I saw 10 squirrels I got 3 the rest got a way I could not believe my eyes that I got 3 squirrels that I got with my grizzly


  24. The average person is going to be sweating and semi-paralyzed if they hear an intruder coming up the stairs. And, if it’s nighttime, it will probably be fairly dark. The average person will not hit an intruder with a shot from any type of weapon in this scenario. It’s best to be quiet and hope the intruder leaves.


    • Eileen,

      That’s what lasers and tactical flashlights are for.

      I will not be sweating & semi-paralyzed. In fact, my adrenaline will be pumping at breakneck speed. I will not stand there and “hope” the intruder leaves.

      You break into my house, I will shoot…day or night. The laser on my Glock will shine a pinpoint dot on your body, and I will pull the trigger. Additionally, I have a Taurus Circuit Judge that shoots either .45 cartridges or 410 gauge shells. 6 shots from that, and the intruder is laying on the ground. That rifle stands next to my bed.

      When we lived in another state, our neighbor was insane, drugged up, boozed up and shooting firearms in his front yard much of the time. Whenever he came a-knocking on our door, I brought a handgun to the door every time. I was not paralyzed. We slept with a shotgun under the bed. We knew what we had to do and prepared mentally for it.

      Don’t own a gun if you’re going to be semi-paralyzed with fear and unable to use it. Standing down is not an option. Living and defending your life and property is the path to take.

      Edith


  25. To me, powerful airgun and compound bow are the only self defence gears I could have in my territory because of local firearm restriction. A repeater powerful airgun like Hatsan series would be my first choice in adverse situation. A head shot by airgun with 40-70J within 15m should bring a sufficient knockdown power against human intruders. As I’m also a samurai swordsman, a katana (samurai sword) would also be my secondary weapon as the backup in close quarter situation and reassurance in elimination against my enemy. I also equipped a powerful break barrel airrifle and carried it inside a tactical backpack all the time as a backup in case of repeater PCP malfunction.
    Most important is setting up a tactical training plan and make sure We can manipulate all lethal gears under combat situation. Practise make perfect and wish you all become a 15meter KING in combat!


  26. While I do agree with some of the points made here, I don’t necessarily agree with ALL the points the original poster and some of the other guys made here. First off, get a real firearm if you can get one and don’t substitute it for a Co2 pistol. Now, there is the problem with many countries these days in that you cannot obtain a firearms license that easily or at all. Costs for the tests, training and the firearm is sky high in some countries. I think that is the main reason why so many people resort to owning a Co2 pistol rather than a firearm. Don’t get me wrong, there is no comparison between a real firearm and a Co2 pistol when it comes to power. The thing is this, If I cannot for some reason own a real firearm what options do I have. A knife is good, but proper training is required and you have to get up close and personal with the attacker. I generally do not like weapons which require me to be within arms reach of my attacker. Pepper spray is a good option, but you might also be affected inside your own home and also barricaded by it. I don’t think it is out of the question to defend or to try and defend yourself with a Co2 pistol if that is all you have. I wouldn’t recommend body shots though. I would imagine taking 8 shots from either a 4.5mm steel BB or lead pellet in the face traveling at 350 FPS would seriously wound, maim or even kill the attacker. Some people here say that it took X amount of shots from a 9mm or 45 ACP to the face and the attacker still didn’t go down. Other reports tells stories of people getting killed by a Co2 BB pistol. This topic can be debated and will be debated for ever. I think there are a lot more issues and situations to consider than just the power of the Co2 pistol. I think using a Co2 pistol for self defence firstly depends on what situation you find yourself in.


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