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Education / Training Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 1

Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: We now have podcast download links in each month’s podcast. Thanks to TheRibber, who showed us how he did it, my wife followed his examples and updated all the podcasts. Going forward, every podcast will have a download link when posted.

Settle in, my children, for daddy has a long winter story to tell about the Crosman M1 Carbine. The opportunity to write this report is a gift to me, as much as to any of you, because I am fascinated with the M1 Carbine firearm as much as the BB gun it inspired.

A brief history of the M1 Carbine
Jimmy Stewart aside, David Marshall “Carbine” Williams did not invent the M1 Carbine. [Note to those who don’t get that reference: Jimmy Stewart starred in the 1952 movie Carbine Williams.] What he did invent was the short-stroke gas piston that made it possible for the carbine to work as it did. He worked for Winchester during the time they created the design that became the M1 Carbine, and he even worked on it sporadically, but he played only a minor part in the actual development of the gun that became the carbine (other than his essential short-stroke gas piston).

In fact, he designed an altogether different carbine that the government felt was even better than the actual M1 Carbine, but it came after the carbine was already in production and there was too much inertia in the program and time lost to make changes. Remember, there was a world war happening while the carbine was designed, tested, accepted and produced.

This is a very early Winchester production carbine in near-mint condition. Although Winchester designed the carbine, the Inland Division of General Motors was first to start building them. Winchester was second, and their early examples, like this one, had design features that were soon changed, making this a very rare rifle. It appears to be in unfired condition, with the exception of factory proof testing.

The M1 Carbine was requested by the U.S. Army in June 1940 as a possible replacement for the .45 pistol and later for the submachine gun, as well. As the requirement developed, it became a gun that had to be lethal on men to 300 yards (far beyond the effective range of the pistol in most soldiers’ hands), had to weigh 5 lbs. or less, and had to look and operate like the Garand that the army had fallen in love with.

The initial plan was for the carbine to be issued to drivers, cooks and officers who were not armed as heavily as most soldiers. Those who carried a carbine would not carry a sidearm like the M1911A1 pistol. In fact, the carbine quickly became very popular with more troops than they’d planned, and the demand rose beyond initial estimates. And many who got carbines kept their .45 pistols, as well.

In battle it was soon discovered that the carbine lacked the killing power the Army had hoped for. But the production program was underway and going so well they decided to ride it out–not unlike they did with the M16 in Viet Nam, when similar results were realized. After the war was over the government didn’t want to spend money on a replacement for the carbine, and new soldiers forgot the lessons of war, so the M1 Carbine soldiered on until well past Viet Nam. The same thing happened with the M16, which is still in use today, though the Army is looking for a larger-caliber replacement.

The development program of the carbine is a classic, not only of firearms but of any mass-produced technology at any time. From the first delivery in June 1942 to the last one in 1944, over 6 million carbines were produced, making it the all-time biggest production run of any U.S. small arm. This was the first weapons program in which investment cast parts were attempted for important operational parts (they didn’t work). This was a program in which a field expedient conversion to full-auto (for the M2 carbine) was so well-received by Springfield Arsenal that they adopted it as a standard. This was the first time a U.S. standard arm met with abject failure in one of its performance requirements and still soldiered on as a successful weapon for 30 more years (the carbine was never successful at launching rifle grenades).

And, finally, the M1 Carbine gave rise in the early 1950s to a .22 caliber centerfire round that evolved into the current 5.56mm round used by the current battle rifle. So, the carbine is the grandfather of the M16. If these short anecdotes are of interest, there’s a spendid two-volume reference set called War Baby and War Baby II by Larry Ruth that is the seminal reference on M1 Carbine history.

Last note on the carbine. In the 1950s, the NRA made M1 Carbines available to members for $20. The hundreds of thousands of guns that came into general circulation through that channel raised the interest in the gun to a high level.

A brief history of the Crosman M1 Carbine
In 1966, American interest in the M1 Carbine was 10 years into a national high that has never subsided. Crosman was already building successful lookalike BB and pellet guns, and they decided their V350 BB gun could be restocked to look like dad’s M1 Carbine. So, with a replacement wooden stock and some cosmetic metal parts, the engineers transformed the V350 into the Crosman M1 Carbine. They got the length just about perfect, the weight was within 2 oz. of a carbine with an unloaded magazine inserted (a loaded carbine mag weighs a lot, depending on the size of the mag) and the volume of the stock was only slightly less than the firearm. It was one of the most realistic airgun lookalikes ever conceived. It was so close, in fact, that some advanced collectors have installed Crosman M1 Carbines in genuine carbine stocks and even savvy firearms buffs cannot spot them without close examination.

The first year Crosman M1 Carbine had a slabwood stock. This is a later model with a more rounded Croswood plastic stock. Though it is more rugged and better-looking, the wood-stock model is rarer and commands a higher price.

In the first year of production, the Crosman carbine went into a wooden stock. It was slabsided and less real-looking than the plastic Croswood stock that came out the next year. The Croswood stock is dense, heavy and rounded like the firearm stock, but the overall appearance seems fake and plastic-y. The plastic wears to a shiny finish that isn’t true to a genuine firearm. But you almost have to hold the gun to see the difference.

This is a BB repeater that holds 22 shots in the gravity-feed magazine and hundreds in what looks like the magazine but is really a BB reservoir. About half the guns are missing their magazines, and replacements are not available. No collector in his right mind will part with a genuine Crosman M1 Carbine magazine–though they only raise the price of the gun by about $35-45 when they accompany it. There have been fake solid plastic placeholder magazines made in the past to complete the look of the gun. These do not hold any BBs and even they now command a fair price when you find them. It sounds to me like a great project for a guy with an idle CNC machine!

The magazine isn’t needed for the gun to function. The real magazine is built into the upper handguard and is functional even when the fake magazine is missing. But everybody wants that genuine M1 Carbine look, and the mag completes the gun.

The gun cocks by pulling straight back on the barrel until the sear catches. It isn’t easy for an adult to do, and nearly impossible for a youngster. So, kids often looped their fingers over the muzzle and front sight when they cocked the gun. Others pushed the muzzle in toward the stock with the palm of their other hand. If you think about the ramifications for accidents that causes, you’ll understand why the M1 Carbine ceased manufacture in 1976. It certainly isn’t a model they would ever bring out today.

The gun is 35-1/4″ long and weighs 5 lbs., 3 oz. It’s heavy for a BB gun, but that’s the price of realism. It’s also one of the more powerful BB gun mechanisms, with an expected muzzle velocity in the 350 f.p.s. region–hence the model name V350. There were two different types of peep sights on the M1 Carbine, and Crosman chose to copy the better adjustable type that was graduated for five elevation settings from 50 to 300 yards (for the firearm, of course), plus a knob-wound windage adjustment.

And there are numerous other innovations that, when summed up, make a collector really appreciate all the work that went into the Crosman gun. I’ll cover each of them as we come to them. I plan on giving this gun a complete velocity and accuracy test. When this report is finished, the gun will have a good reference point in our growing library.

103 thoughts on “Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 1”

  1. BB,you are a heck of a salesman,now I wan’t one of each,starting with the wood stock.I also have a better perspective on the V350M from the other day.I’ll try to find a copy of “War Baby”as well.Truth really is stranger than fiction…FrankB what price range would a collector expect to pay for a mediocre Crosman M1?

  2. Hooray for the return of Podcasts. It will again give me something to listen to as I take the train from Jersey to my job here in downtown NY. Having received the Maccari nectar the other day (his lube pack), successfully installing my hot water heater and having to replace a battery in one of my cars, I look forward to assembling my RWS 350 tonight and hopefully having it still work 🙂

  3. Frank B.,

    I paid $100 for the gun shown here. It came with a tatty box and a manual. Expect to pay $150-175 for the same gun today.

    I just turned down a supposedly “like new” plastic-stocked M1 Carbine the guy wanted $250 for. That is too high for plastic, but right for wood. Like new is EXTREMELY rare because of how the gun cocks. It gets wear marks at the back of the barrel. When someone calls a Crosman M1 Carbine like new, it’s usually 90 percent and worth half as much.


  4. Vince,

    The plastic stocks vary quite a bit. Mine is light-colored, but many are darker. Mince also gas more shine than most. Perhaps a light rub of steel wool would break the shine. That might improve the look.

    The plastic stock looks much more realistic than the wood. Anything that enhances it is a plus. I suppose a real buff might consider painting it.


  5. B.B.,
    I was in a hurry to pass this on to you. I haven’t had a chance to read today’s post, yet, but skimming down to the comment box left me very anxious to get to it.

    You can prepare for another “Also Sprach Zarathustra” moment. Everyone should have Googled that by now to know what we’re talking about. This from my astro Brother in AZ.:

    “On Tuesday, Feb 17, a fat crescent Moon will be closely aligned again with
    Antares high in the sky in the morning hours. You will have to get up 1/2
    hour earlier this time, as it will look better before sunrise! Sunrise is
    6:50 am CST. It won’t be as dramatically close as last month. It will get
    closer as the day progresses, but the Moon sets at 10:50 am. You can still
    see the star in a telescope since if you saw it in the early morning, you
    will now know where to look, just a couple degrees east of the moon. It
    won’t actually be at its closest, a small fraction of a degree, until 3 pm.
    In Australia it will completely disappear behind the Moon.”


  6. Hi all – A bit off topic but may interest you. I just got off the phone with the county police where I live in MI, and apparently my neighboor (i’ve dealt with this guy before and he is a stuck up prick) saw me shooting my pellet gun at a pellet trap in the back yard (which is odd because I thought I was very stealth like) and called in a complaint to the police department. Now I had done my research on whether what I was doing was legal or not. I called the township office and they told me I was ok as long as I was shooting into a target and the gun was .177 caliber or less. They even reffered me to the township website that has the ordinances. Here’s how it reads :

    Sec. 38-121. Regulations for possession and use of firearms.
    (a) The term “firearms” for the purpose of this section shall mean any weapon or device from which is propelled any missile, projectile, bullet, shot, pellet or mass by means of explosives, compressed air or gas having a force of .177 caliber or less.
    (b) No person shall have in his possession any firearm which is loaded.
    (c) This section shall not apply to:

    Then it goes on to say in sub section 7 (which the way I read it makes it sound like what I’m doing is perfectly legal)

    (7) A person is years of age or older, operating a firearm .177 caliber or less on premises owned by him or on premises upon which he has been given specific permission to use for this purpose, and operating said firearm in a safe and lawful manner.

    I even called back after reading this to help determine what a safe and lawful manner was, and they told me shooting into a metal pellet trap would be considered safe and lawful.

    So in my discussion with the police officer I told him all of this, and he said that “technically” I was right, but due to the potential for complaints, me getting blamed for every busted window in the neighborhood, so on and so on, that it would probably be in the best interest of everyone involved for me to stop shooting in the back yard. He also mentioned they didn’t have time to do a full investigation of every complaint and there would be potential for wrongful accusations to lead to me getting in trouble.

    So I agreed with him and said that I would no longer shoot into the back yard, and I won’t. I don’t want to give us airgunners a bad name. But I guess the moral of the story is even though what you’re doing may be legal on paper it just takes one guy (i’ll save my feelings about that s.o.b. for another day) to the call the cops and put the kibash on your airgunning fun. Fortunately I’ve got lots of room to shoot in the house.


  7. Chuck,

    Thanks, for that.. I’ve been watching these events, and got a photo two weeks ago..


    Well pack up your stuff.. sounds like you better move in here!!


    What is the price range for the real carbine.. especially that original Winchester version?


  8. Aaron,

    Any way to mend the fence with this guy?

    If you could establish/re-establish a dialogue with this neighbor you could educate him not only about your legal right to shoot your airgun but about your passion for gun safety including your use of a pellet trap that has duct seal installed to eliminate noise and ricochet.

    He may be a tough nut to crack but you’d be the better man for extending a hand of friendship.


  9. B.B.,
    Excellent post. One of those would look real nice next to my Walther 1894. Maybe some day they’ll make a pellet repeater version.

    I must admit I played the curmudgeon once and paid the price. However, my children today have all their sensory organs.

    My neighbor’s kid was shooting a BB rifle in their back yard and I was very concerned about ricochets coming into my back yard where my little children were playing.

    I didn’t take the time to sit with him and see how he was shooting or what he was shooting at. I think if I would have I wouldn’t have been so concerned. So, the bottom line, I groused at him, made him stop, and earned his wrath, making an enemy of him. Several weeks later I got a brick through my picture window in the middle of the night. Coincidence?

    Aaron, is it possible for you to invite your neighbor over to show him what you’re doing to alleviate his fears? You could then tell him if he still feel the same way you’ll still quit. If this is your only serious run in with him it might help. Do you have another gun he can shoot with you?

  10. Kevin,

    Right on.. great advice for Aaron.. also start with some peace offering of beer, wine, cheese or candy!! maybe a rose bush or something he likes to do..

    If that fails.. then you can move in!!


  11. Kevin – You are right. I’ll put your suggestion on my “How To Deal With My Uppity Neighbor” list right under “light a bag of dog poo on fire on his porch.” Which, incidentally would be his dog’s poo. I’ve seen his dog in my yard taking poo’s all the time and when I ask him if he can keep that from happening he says, “How do you know it’s my dog?” And I say, you’re dog is the only one I see crapping in my yard. Anyway, I’m only kidding about lighting it on fire on his porch anyway.

    It is funny however, that you use the expression “mend the fence” about this guy because indirectly the fence between our yards and his bird feeder are what got me into airgunning. There is a wood fence that seperates this guys back yard from mine and on this fence he has a bird feeder. The feeder hangs on an “L” shaped bracket (which I gues in this case would look more like a 7) and he hangs the feeder over on my side of the fence so all the shells and weeds that go with it get dumped into my yard. I asked him to stop doing this as well and he said the wind blows it that way. Yet every week I would watch him spin the feeder over to his side to fill it and then back over onto my side for all the droppings to fall. Well as I looked out there I couldn’t help but notice all the squirrels and bunnies and blackbirds, etc.. that sat in my yard and ate the stuff out of his feeder. I said to myself, I need a pellet gun!! So about a year ago I got one, found this blog, and fell in love!!


  12. Aaron,

    IF you’re willing, it sounds like quite a challenge to become neighborly with this neighbor.

    Some of the best people I know were the toughest to get to know.


  13. B.B.
    Just wanted to say that I really loved the history lesson on the M1 and had no idea that GM had their hands in buliding some of them. When I was in basic training I saw a lot of the M16’s with Hasbro and Mattel stamped on the platic parts because the toy companies were making the parts for the military during the Vietnam era and we got the leftovers. When I got to my regular unit we were issued the newer M16A2’s with the forward assist for jams but I still always hated that it was just a beefed up .22 as did a lot of other guys in my unit during Desert Storm. I really do hope that they come out with a larger caliber soon and get rid of that .22 !!!

  14. Aaron,

    Sounds like that is the bottom line in this dispute.. he is afraid your shooting his “pet” wild friends.. I bet reassurance, your not after the songbirds, and only starlings and other pests like the rats that are brought around by the feeder droppings… it might help..
    Have you tried to just gently swing the feeder back over to his side of the fence?

    It sounds like a very deep and festering wound between you two.. It might take a lot, to come together.. You’ll get extra brownie points, if you work out this one!!

    Try to see the opportunity for a high score with the big guy in the sky!!


  15. Of course, I’m joking. Unless this is your only neighbor, you can’t be 100% sure that he’s the SOB that phoned in a complaint to the Police. Aaron, it’s exactly for your troubles that I’m extremely careful about allowing my neighbors see me even with a gun case. Unless you’re surrounded by neighbors that own firearms AND love them and express a genuine interest, I’ve found people will be highly unreasonable towards our hobby.

    As I’ve said on this blog before, should one of my neighbors see me walking around my yard with a scoped rifle, even thought that would be legal, the Union Co. SWAT team would be surrounding my house in nothing flat. Those boys don’t get out much and wouldn’t miss a chance to use all their toys.

    Good luck.

  16. Thanks guys, the comments have helped me look at this posotively. While I admit I have shot a few critters from under the feeder this isn’t why he called the police. I think I mentioned the other day I got some new pellets for my b-day and I wanted to try them out at a longer ranges so I shot for quite awhile out of the house and into the back yard and this has to have been when he discovered me. I don’t think he’s noticed the random shots hear and there. Even if he suspects me of shooting critters the evidence has since been disposed of or consumed in the case of the rabbits and squirrels!!

    I’m an easy going guy and the last thing I want is to have an even worse feud with my neighbor, I’ll try to talk to him next time I see him, but I’m guessing I won’t get anywhere. In which case, Fred, I’ll let you know about that brick.

    Trying to keep this on a positive note – I guess I should start looking at guns that are more indoor friendly. The Magnum Research Desert Eagle, IZH-61, and Crossman 2300S all seem like great guns. Maybe I’ll use this years tax return to get all 3 rather than one TX 200. Then everybody wins!!


  17. Hi B.B.

    Do you know if Crosman had any other models in the late 60’s time frame with “push” barrel cocking. I had one as a kid but didn’t think it was an M1 or V350M.


  18. Anonymous, they had the standard model V350 (different from the ‘M’ variant). If you go to gunbroker.com you’ll probably find some for sale with pictures, that might give you an idea if that’s the one you’re thinking of.

  19. I have never been able to get the americanairgunner.com website to work. I’ve tried looking it up on Google, and tried links from other forums. Nothing works for me. I guess the only thing I haven’t tried yet is using IE instead of FireFox. I’ll try that. I really want to see the trailer.

  20. B.B.

    I seem to have heard of the short-stroke gas piston being used for modern assault rifles, perhaps even the new SCAR rifle. If so, “Carbine” Williams would be an important figure. On the subject of owning one, your comment earlier about the cast parts of the M1 setting a shot limit on the receivers is a great reason not to get one, especially a surplus copy. But on the subject of lethality, for those interested in self-defense, hollow-point or soft nosed ammo which is not allowed in the military because of the Geneva Convention is supposed to make the carbine plenty lethal.

    Well, the comments on Aaron’s situation make me think that airgunners are saints in addition to everything else. I know the Bible says to be a peacemaker but putting that into practice can be very hard with some personalities. Aaron, if you offer the hand of friendship, that will certainly be to your credit. However, from the other behavior of this person as well as the irrational prejudices towards guns that I have seen in well-disposed people, I wouldn’t hope for much. I also don’t know about handling weapons with someone where there is antipathy.

    Anyway, my thoughts run more towards going to ground. Invoking history, I understand that Japanese soldiers of WWII differed from their American opponents in the use of field fortifications. Where Americans would dig foxholes to retain mobility, the Japanese would build a more elaborate underground structure whose name translated as “octopus” which would allow them to pop up without warning and disappear…. More seriously, I would suggest going indoors and taking advantage of another feature of airguns which is their incredible compression.

    One of our earlier discussions established pretty well that the minute of angle geometry applies pretty well out to extreme ranges where the wind starts to play a factor which is way beyond most backyards. Shooting at 5 yards indoors seems to translate very well for me to shooting 30 caliber rifles at a hundred yards. I’m thinking of quantifying the accuracy differences to study this more.

    Anyway, I can attest that the IZH 61 is outstanding for indoor shooting. And with the marvelous, fabulous duct seal as well as Jane’s LE panels, you can shoot high power as well. My B30 is getting 900 fps and shooting it inside a carboard box, I’ve had no complaints from neighbors in a very thin walled building. You can also work on other aspects of your shooting game–standing, multiple-target snap shooting with rifle and pistol. It’s like compressing the universe into a bean.


  21. B.B.

    As for nothing being new under the sun in airgunning, how about this? A spring-operated pellet artillery piece. Recoil is something which springers do well, so the piece could be set up to behave like the guns on old war films which is the most fun thing in watching them. I recall that springers only require a few inches of barrel so the scale shouldn’t be a problem.

    The piece could be given enlarged and precise aiming controls for exploring trajectories and companies could set up a whole industry based on the demand from physics and trigonometry classes….

    Can we at least say it hasn’t been tried. 🙂


  22. I bought one of the new auto ordnance M1 carbines about a year ago. It is one of my favorite rifles. Its very light, has little recoil, and is decently accurate. These new carbines are made to original Winchester spec. and are compatible with GI spec. accessories.

    Modern day testing shows that the problem with the M1 was its ball type ammo. The .30 carbine cartridge when fired from the M1 carbine has equivalent muzzle energy to the 5.56 when fired from the M4 carbine. The .30 carbine round, however looses energy very fast making it ineffective past 200 meters. The ball ammo also tends over penetrate the target at ranges less than 50 meters, causing little damage. Modern soft point ammo performs better at all ranges than ball, and the light weight hollow points manufactured by Cor-Bon offer higher muzzle energy, longer effective range, and less chance of over penetration at short range than standard the ball round.

    The M1 carbine was the PDW today, and still meets most of the requirements of the modern PDW program.

  23. Matt61 – I think you’re right on. I’ve got some outdoor places I can go to shoot my airguns legally (or at least without pissing anyone off), but when I get there I end up shooting the fire arms I don’t have the opportunity to shoot while I’m at home. I loved shooting my RS2 because I could do it from home whenever I wanted. (I still can, just at shorter ranges) So now, I’m taking it indoors. Screw the neighboor, I’ll be in my basement fanatically pursuing the infamous one-hole group while he’s over at his place, staring out the window at my house, watching his dog crap in my yard.


  24. Thanks for the link Herb…I didn’t have time to check out the whole trailer. Pretty cool video. I think starting out with big bore airguns and hunting will get airgunning some recognition. Mostly good I hope.

  25. UW Hunter
    Start at airguninfo.com, click on used airgun sales, and then on american airgun. Works for me anyway.

    Consider the HW50S for indoor shooting. I got mine with the Avanti peep sight. Had to tap the sight to install a set screw but otherwise it has worked great. One hole group? Yes – the size of the hole just changes with my mood and caffein intake.
    Have fun

  26. Guys,

    off topic but about springers. I have Maccari’s lube package and it contains 3 greases – the moly, the heavy or black tar and what he calls “clear” tar. Keeping in mind I’m closing up the RWS350 tonight, is there any part that would benefit from the “clear” or light tar? I know the heavy goes on the spring and guides, the moly on the sides of the seal and piston and the tail(?) where it will be latched by the trigger group, as well as the cocking hinges on the lever and barrel. Am I missing something here?

  27. I’m with you about Union County Swat.

    Are they as gung ho as Middlesex(Piscataway) Swat?

    I witnessed swat in action once, it was very impressive and scary at the same time. I would not want to be on the wrong side of one of those operations.

    Some of the hardware they had was truly awesome looking.

    Two questions Fred: What do you shoot? Ever been to Cabelas in Hamburg, Pa?

    Bob C NJ

  28. MCA, is that link for the American Airgunner TV show? That is what I’m trying to watch. The link you provided seems to go to the classifieds that I visit frequently. Is anyone else having difficulty using the American Airgunner website?

  29. UW Hunter,

    The nice thing about standards is that there are so many from which to choose…

    Do you have FlashPlayer installed?

    You need it to see the video clip. It is an add-on to the web browser.

    Unfortunately the web generally doesn’t degrade gracefully. Either something works or it doesn’t. When it doesn’t… well I’m bald from pulling my hair out.


  30. Bob C,

    Right now, my collection consists of the RWS350, RWS 46, 52, the Benjamin Discovery and my first rifle and squirrel killer, the Benj Sheridan 392. Long story which I won’t bore everyone again with. I go to the Union County rifle and pistol range in Springfield when I want to shoot distance since Ray’s on Rt. 22 closed. Otherwise, I’m in the basement getting those one hole groups – of course I’m only 23 feet away from the target.

    That RWS350 was purchased at Cabelas in their “budget cave” or whatever they call it. It was almost half price from internet pricing, since it was a return. I’ve reported on loose screws, loose scope, lousy mounts and now, very slow velocity which I hope will be corrected tonight. Maybe the end of this year, I’ll look to sell one of the RWS’ and move up to a higher quality rifle with a top notch trigger, like the Rekord. We’ll see.

    I have no personal exposure (thank GOD) to Middlesex or Union SWAT but I can tell you all those guys think they’re something special, even to looking down on the NJ State Troopers. For the rest of the blogs’ info, our NJ State Police are notorious for NOT extending professional courtesy to out of state police. How’s that grab you?

  31. Fred,

    I think the clear (“Euro?”) tar/grease is mainly for sliding compression tubes (side- and underlevers), since it isn’t as messy. Sounds like you have the right idea: use the moly wherever metal pieces slide on each other (be careful on the sear). Can’t wait to see how it turns out.

  32. I've heard clear or euro moly for tighter fitting springers and may be a little faster than moly, which may be a faster than black tar. I used black tar on my quest 800 main spring, moly on the other eternals and a mix of moly & non detergent oil on some trigger areas and externals.

  33. The thing that always amazed me about the M1 Carbine round (I have one of those $20 NRA carbines, inherited from when my dad bought one), is that–no matter what you shoot it out of–it’s really loud. In fact, my kids all loved shooting it for exactly that reason.

    I was doing an article once about cartridge adapters. One was for shooting the .30 Carbine round from my Winchester 94. It was still really loud!

  34. B.B.oranyone:

    Does anyone know the muzzle velocity of the late 1950’s-era Daisy Red Ryder BB gun?

    Last month, in a fit of nostalgia, I bought myself a new Red Ryder at Wal-Mart. It had been my first-ever bb gun when I was a kid.

    But I remember the mv of that older RR being less than 200 fps, whereas this new one spits out bbs at 350 fps, according to PA’s write up of it. The present mv seems more like my next youth BB gun, the Daisy pump-action model 25. (Does anyone know or remember the mv of the 25 as well — mine was made in the early 1960s).

    Thanks for any help. I’m writing a nostalgia piece so I’m just really curious.

  35. My collection consists of a few affordable airguns. My wish list is everything, which doesn’t help.

    I have a Crosman BB scout (Mendoza650), Daisy Model 105 Buck and the Daisy Red Ryder. The Mendoza is made with nice materials, the Buck has a nice fiber optic front sight, but the Red Ryder shoots the straightest.

  36. ALL
    I can sympathize with Aaron’s poor neighbor situation.used to live in MI.for a short time,there were some really good people there but not very gun friendly.now i’m back in AL. where all my neighbors are hunters and shooters:)There’s actual firearm hunting going on in my “hood”
    frequently.so they just smile and wave when they see me out with my scoped “toys”.We have large lots all around us and everyone is aware of gun safety (as far as I know)no stray shots flying through the house:)It’s great cause we are within a few minutes walk or drive of just about any game available in this region.including deer,turkey and wild hogs.

    have always liked the M1 .30 as a critter getter but wasn’t aware of the bb gun version till I started reading your blogs,now I’m lookin fer one o them too.Did these storms already pass by you out in cowboy country? we’re gonna get a soakin tomorrow I think.


  37. JoeB.
    I vaguely recall something about 210 fps on my ~1977 1938B (the woodstock was revived in the early 70’s after a complete lapse in RR production, I think). I was working on something similar to what you seem to be doing, comparing my old one with a recent “1938B” version. I don’t think 350fps is correct, it just seems to be a cutoff for “youth” class BB guns…there’s something generic on the box to the effect that this gun shoots up to a maximum of 350fps. I’ve seen 280fps quoted, and that doesn’t seem far off the mark. Of course, the older one doesn’t hit quite as hard (which jives with my recollection of 210 fps), but age and use may be the only reasons. I remember it having plenty of “knockdown” power when I was 10:). Sorry, I guess I didn’t help much.

    I think you’re right about the clear tar also being used on some springs, maybe light ones?, but I don’t recall much about it.

  38. JT,

    Sounds like you live in a decent area, too:). I feel for Aaron and the others who can’t even shoot a pellet rifle on their own property. It sounds like the law isn’t much help for law-abiding citizens.

  39. Dave
    the front sight on a 953 sits on a grooved dovetail
    easily removable but I don’t know about replaceable.can’t remember the dovetail size,sorry if this didn’t help much.


  40. Dave,

    Welcome! The 953 does have a unique site. It is removable. In diagram No. 12 in the manual it appears fairly easy. If you don’t have a manual theres one on Pyramyd Airs site. Here’s a link to your gun on the PA site, look down on the right a little below the picture of the gun to view the manual, you’ll need to copy and paste this link:


    I can’t be any help with a replacement but maybe someone else can chime in or maybe tech support at Pyramyd AIR can help you in the morning when they open.


  41. B.B.

    I was thinking of something miniature like the toy cannons people used to have on their desk, but I suppose I have been scooped.

    Aaron, no reason not to fight back, and in the process, have some fun with new technologies. Consider airsoft. People shoot each other with these for fun, so no one can complain about their illegality. But they hurt like hell, enough to deter a dog anyway, and some of the sniper models can be fairly accurate.

    Or you can get yourself a Surefire flashlight and beam the dog if you happen to see it. These flashlights are supposed to deter wild animals, so they should be enough for the dog. And there’s nothing illegal about light. Or maybe you can practice dry-firing at the dog with a gun mounted with one of the new Leapers scopes with the green laser. Who says you can’t shoot in your backyard….

    Yes, it’s hard to get in time with airguns at the shooting range. Maybe you can swap out an airgun for one of your firearms. I’m still working on that.


  42. mechredd,

    Thanks for the information about the Auto Ordnance carbine. I’ve read good reports about them, one claimed to get 2 inches at 100 yards with iron sights. Sounds like a very capable rifle with the right ammo. However, the darn things are expensive and so is their ammo.


  43. The 350 is together after a bit of a struggle with the trigger group (pins falling out, safety refusing to insert) but it’s together and shooting – the same. Actually, it’s a bit slower – 745 fps before takedown vs 736 fps after assembly. Either that seal is damaged or the spring is sprung or both and I can’t tell. Next step is perhaps a trip to a local air smithy in Radnor, PA, I guess.

    I tried.

  44. Fred,

    I hear and feel the frustration.

    You did it though! May not be the results you wanted but you did it.

    Were you looking for more velocity?

    Did the lubes smooth it out a bit?


  45. Fred,

    I don’t know what the gun is supposed to do fps-wise (except for the sales description and without knowing what pellets are used), but 9 fps difference is not much and may just be the tar. You would have seen damage on the seal or spring, assuming you had them out. Maybe the breech seal? Kevin’s right to ask — is the rifle smoother or otherwise improved, despite the decline in velocity? Is the velocity more consistent? Maybe give it a few more shots to settle in. Also, maybe the rifle has a rough chamber — did you polish or hone it any? Finally, you might try a drop of chamber oil — if the seal is too tight and/or the chamber is rough, it might help — just don’t add enough to cause detonation.

  46. Aaron,Inform your neighbor you own firearms legally to protect your family and property…tell him you seldom get to practice[in case you have to use them]then inform him he’s the only obsticle in you improving your marksmanship,but it is his decision! CHECKMATE FrankB

  47. Fred,

    It seems that quite A few PD’s have that attitude toward our State Police. IMHO if you wear A uniform, have A gun and put bad guys in jail, you’re all right with me.

    I’ve never had A problem with the State Police myself, probably because I live in NJ even though I was on the job in NY.

    How do you like the Disco? My next air gun will be the Marauder as soon as it’s released for sale.

    Sorry to hear about the problems with your 350, at least you had the courage to try A fix.

    BG_Farmer echoed my thoughts, so good luck with your project.

    Can you give me contact info for your air smithy in Radnor?


    BobC NJ

  48. B.B. Kevin, & all shotgun helpers!!

    I told you I would take my time and do research and shop around..

    Well, I stopped by my friends pawnshop FIRST!.. on the way for supplies.. and there it was an old double barrel 12ga tall, walnut stock beauty.. A Hunter Arms "Fulton" made in Fulton NY USA…. I can't find a date anywhere.. IT's real tight has a great old but clean look.. tell me about it!!

    I tried to find a book where I stopped to get 3" 1- 1/8 oz. B.B. steel shot, & 2-3/4" 7 -1/2 lead & to start off, win xtra lite 2-3/4 8 shot target load for it…

    for the Charter Arms Bulldog "Tracker" .357 Mag. nice walnut grips.. Stratford Conn.. (clean 90% metal and wood).. I got 2 boxes of 130gr .38 special and 1 of .357 magnum win. 110gr JHP
    I also got a nice butt pad of course for 12ga!

    at the pawnshop, I also found a Win. model 69 .22lr & shorts, with what looks like a 6 shot clip…. beat up, but I love it too! got them all for $710.. when I saw it, I was thinking $600 for the 12ga, but he had $400 on it.. He did the background check and I was done in half hour.. had to get supplies, shells and shoot a little at the range and get back to the shop..

    I could tell that someone did the trigger, when I tried it at the pawnshop, on the tracker .357 mag…BUT WOW!! It must be under one OZ!! I swear it's less than the USFT or P-70.. just start to touch it and she fires…

    and with the 38 special rounds, it's a pussy cat to shoot. I set up a row of empty pellet tins at 10 & 20 yards.. it took all 50 rds in the first box, to get em, but I even "walked a few", like Volvo would say..
    Then I felt ready to load her up with the .357 mags.. OK not too bad.. but those are for serious affairs.. IMHO:))) not a plinking round, for me!! That "Bulldog" is just right for me, perfect size and power .. very fun to shoot..
    like my friends here and the pawnshop said it would be!!! thanks everyone!!

    Then I was ready for the Fulton 12ga, I slid aside the still tight locking lever, revealing clean well oiled metal.. I shut and opened it a few more times in the day light testing the hinge and lock.. yes very tight.. love it..

    I put in the light loads, and blasted some plastic jugs.. hey I can do this!! I tried the other 2-3/4".. about the same.. no problem.. OK.. Kevin did it when he was 10!! come on Wayne this will be easy.. in goes the 3" shells.. BooM .. ok second one two…Boom! hey nothing to it!!

    Passed the .357 pistol and 12 ga milestone in one day!!

    By the way there was a perfect LNIB walnut 12ga rem 870 pump.. $400 also.. I'm going back on friday maybe… what da ya think?

    Wacky Wayne

    nighty nite

  49. OH MY everyone!!

    I just saw this on Gunbroker for buy it now..$3,500 in .410ga. MINE LOOKS JUST LIKE THE PICTURES OF THIS ONE, BUT MINE IS 12GA !!!!
    here is what it said:

    “You are bidding on a Hunter Arms Fulton 410 shotgun. Made in late 1930’s. Case color hardening is about 95%. Gun overall is about 95%. Fulton, Fulton Special, and Hunter Special shotguns were manufactured by the Hunter Arms Company. They were box lock shotguns, did not carry the L.C. Smith name, and are not classified as L.C. Smith shotguns. The Fulton was introduced in 1915 to meet a market demand for inexpensive shotguns created by poor quality imported shotguns. It was priced at $18, and the Futon Special sold for $25 in 1916.”

    Here is the link, mine is not as nice as stock, close, but more dings and grung.. (probably turkey blooded hands).. but the metal is just as nice…

    it’s been a good day…
    I’ll be too pumped to sleep much tonight..


  50. Nice Wayne! Are you ready for a .44 mag now? My buddy took his out last time we went shooting together. He likes it, but I’m sorry, it is too much pistol for me!

    .22 multi-shot

  51. .22 multi-shot,

    I don’t think I’m ready for the .44 yet.. I can’t see what I would need anything more than that .357 mag!! that baby has a few foot pounds with the right ammo!! and I can shoot it where I’m aiming… and as Martha would say “that’s a good thing”..

    Been researching more on that Fulton shotgun.. I think I might have done pretty good with that one, it has a D with a crown looking thing on top.. that might mean the higher grade steel.. I’m not sure… found some websites, but too late to read more tonight..

    wow, didn’t get my FT practice in tonight… too late now.


  52. Hello BB, i have a question regarding your excellent video on “How to scope a rifle” in the articles section.
    In that video, you mention the proceedure to verticaly center the scope in the rifle (that is, to make shure the vertical post of the reticle is, well, vertical), but i must say i dint quite understand you.
    Could you please elavorate a little on how do you vertically center the scope?


  53. Michael,

    The vertical reticle needs to be absolutely vertical when the gun is held normally. So the way to align it is to hold the gun normally and to make sure that the reticle runs straight up and down. There is no mechanical way to do this. Your eye is the best way to gauge when the reticle is vertical.

    So you keep both eyes open and you watch to see that the vertical reticle appears to cut (bisect) the frame of the gun in two. If it tilts to one side, it isn’t bisecting the gun. So twist the scope in the rings until it does.

    Imagine the vertical reticle is a plumb line. If it continued on through the rifle, would it split the rifle in two, top to bottom?

    I can’t think of another way to say this. Do you understand, or is it still unclear?

    Here is a thought–can you tell when the vertical reticle IS NOT vertical? If so, keep adjusting it until you can no longer tell that it is (not vertical). At that point, by definition, you must be vertical.


  54. Fred,

    If you are considering sending your 350 off to a tuner, don’t forget our good friend here, Vince. Vince has unselfishly contributed significantly to this blog in writing numerous articles and answering numerous questions. I’ve never had a gun tuned by him but Wayne has had many and has nothing but great things to say about Vince’s abilities.


  55. I appreciate everyone’s comments and suggestions. As for what I was looking to do:

    Kevin, this rifle is a magnum rifle and I was looking for more velocity. The velocity I mentioned – 736 fps was with a 10.5 gr Crosman Premier which gave me around 13 ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle. According to some other web sites, this rifle should be putting out upwards of 18 to 20 ft. lbs. It does shoot much smoother but there is some resistance now when I return the cocking lever to it’s rest. I’ll have to examine how I put the lever into it’s slot in the piston and see what’s hanging up – perhaps the spring guide. I have to study this.

    BG_Farmer – nope, didn’t polish the chamber. Perhaps that’s next. I examined the spring for breaks, uneven apacing between the coils and canting. I found none. The seal, a blue, I guess parachute type, likewise exhibited no cuts or scrapes or scratches and was a snug fit going into the compression chamber. I had to be careful not to have it cut by the edges of the opening of the chamber. But I will drop some pellgun oil down the exhaust port and see if that smooths it out. Also, I will shoot a bit more to see if it will break in and pick up speed but, this rifle needs to get the pellet into the 800’s to do what it’s advertised to do.

    BobC – the guy I found close to home is in Media, PA (not Rador which is close). His address is 206 SOUTH ORANGE STREET MEDIA, PA and his phone number is(610) 565-9498. John is a older fellow and he has a very loyal following. He was the PA air rifle target champ a while ago (not FT) and is very nice to deal with. You need to call him to make sure he’s going to be in the store as he is not in 100% health at the present. The store is on a side street down a driveway behind what appears to be a private residence, if you care to take the trip.

    Matt61 – The reason I use someone local and not some of the other great tuners who get rave reviews (and for the same reason I can’t order air guns from PA) is that for us in Jersey, our air guns are considered firearms and therefore I can’t ship or receive then either by mail or commercial carrier unless I have or use a firearms license. I don’t have an FFL and don’t feel like spending the extra money to have someone agree to ship and receive. I’m stubborn that way.

    Anyway, I’m going to thing a bit more and study the situation. Maybe something will suddenly come into focus for me.


  56. Wayne,

    Good for you! A 12 gauge and a .357 in the same day. I don’t know anyone else that can say that. You also learned about flexibility in firearms. A 12 gauge with low brass, 2 3/4″ shells isn’t a bad gun to shoot target with. A 12 gauge with 3″ magnums isn’t. A .357 shooting light load .38’s isn’t a bad plinking gun. A .357 with magnum loads isn’t a fun gun to plink with. My sidearm was a .357 colt python with 6″ barrel. Also carried shot cartridges for the .357 in case I saw a grouse (good grouse load and I love to eat grouse, in camp especially).

    What did you shoot with the shotgun? Do you have an automatice trap thrower? Is it time to set up a trap range at Ashland? How about a skeet range?

    The only link I saw was to a bulldog on gunbroker similar to the one you purchased. Nice looking gun. I’ve never owned a charter arms gun.

    I know you have a blue book of airguns but do you also have a blue book of firearms? Several differences I’ve observed between buying firearms and airguns are that condition rating of airguns is very subjective. Either the airgun owner doesn’t understand rating or lies. Firearm collectors/dealers are typically more accurate in my experience. They can still lie on the internet. The other difference is grade. I’m not aware of any airguns that have different grades. Not unusual to find a firearm that has 5-6 different grades of the same model (better wood, engraving, enlaying, etc.).

    Be carful you already have one expensive habit.


  57. Kevin,

    No kidding… the more I buy the more I want to buy… that seems a little weird.. not very logical!! I’m ending up with less time to shoot!!
    But still having loads of fun..

    Bird Shot for the .357 mag… that sounds fun!! I’ll have to try that.. I love revolvers because you can put so many different rounds in them..

    We’ve got a great firearm range near by.. they have three ranges for shotguns, a 200yard centerfire, 100 yard centerfire, 75yard rimfire/pistol, 25 yard pistol/shotgun, large archery range, and 100 yard rimfire/pistol.. most are covered with concrete benches… very nice place, great folks always there to keep things safe and give encouragement… it’s $5 per person/day, but I got a year pass for $25!! now the year pass is $50.. a very good deal!!

    I’ve never seen anyone shoot airguns there.. with the noise and all, I think we still should get a few folks to come to our end of the valley for quiet air gun shooting.. That is why we are focusing on FT and Benchrest shooting now.. and it’s what we have most fun with anyway..


  58. Wayne,

    Something has been bothering me about your new revolver. The trigger pull is too light. The only way to get it that light is to have an engagement that is too shallow for safety.

    Do me a favor and conduct a series of bump tests. Cock the hammer when the gun is unloaded and try to discharge the gun by bumping it in several different attitudes. If it fires once in 20 tries, it should be considered unsafe.

    There is nothing more dangerous than a handgun that can discharge at any time. We all enjoy a nice trigger, but there is such a thing as too light, and I think you have it in that gun.

    I’m only thinking of your safety.


  59. Kevin,

    I don’t know enough about shotgunning to know if it’s one or the other or both.. my guess is both.. I’ll ask next time I go..

    Tell me about the difference between trap and skeet..


    Wow!! I’ll test the .357 today!!… What would I do if it is unsafe.. take it to a gunsmith, or tear into it myself?
    Would it be hard fix it myself?


  60. Wayne,

    Yes, take it to a qualified gunsmith. As light as you describe it, it sounds like the last owner may have done some home gunsmithing on it.

    There are standards to be maintained where sear contact is concerned. The hammer may need to be replaced to correct the pull, if it is really as light as you say.


  61. B.B.

    It’s very light, there is no first stage.. and the pull weight is just a very light touch.. I wouldn’t even think about cocking it, before it’s pointed at the target.. then I put my finger inside the guard, and approach the trigger.. just like I do with the FT rifles that I set to match where Anthony and Tim set the P70 and USFT.. the P70 was set too light when I got it.. the bump test set it off real easy.. I adjusted it back to be just like the USFT, which might be one OZ.. but I don’t have a scale..

    The bulldog .357 is set more like the P70 was when a bump would set it off.. so your concern is well founded.. I wish I could just turn a screw like the FT rifles.. I guess it’s off the the gunsmith I met last month..


  62. Wayne,

    I learned that lesson the hard way. Had a Sako rifle that I adjusted the trigger as light as it would go. I was walking to my deer stand one morning and I worked the bolt to chamber a round and the gun fired by itself. Fortunately the muzzle was pointed at the ground.

    A handgun is even more dangerous because the muzzle can be pointed in any direction so easily.


  63. B.B. and anyone else who is interested,

    For Christmas my son received from his grandparents, two Crossman M1’s in their original boxes with documentation and both are near perfect! Even the boxes! They are plastic stocked and the finish on the plastic as well as the metal is a near perfect! My son would like to sell both and put the money towards another air gun or possibly a real rifle. I would post pictures but I do not know how. p.s. I own Winchester 425 .22 that is missing it’s rear sights, can anyone help me?


  64. Mark,

    A pair of Crosman M1’s in their original box is quite a Christmas present. There are airgun sites that would be appropriate for selling the M1’s. Here’s a couple:



    And here’s a couple of good auction sites:



    A rear sight for your Winchester 425 (also known as a Diana model 25) will be difficult. You may want to try this guy:

    There’s also an airgun forum devoted to discontinued/vintage model airguns and you can ask some of those collectors if they have a rear sight or know where to find one. Here’s the link to that forum:


    Mark, although you were able to ask this question by clicking on “comments” under an article that is only a few days old, most of the airgunners are now asking and answering each others questions under the current article that B.B. wrote (he writes a new article every day Monday-Friday). I would also encourage you to ask your question under the current article by clicking on the “comments”. Here’s a link to the current article:


    You’ll need to copy and paste these links.

    Hope to see you on the Pyramyd AIR blog!


  65. About vertically aligning the scope, From Michael

    B.B. Thanks for explaining it again. I think i understand you now.
    However, i read somewhere, that even a small canting error (because i canted the gun, or because the scope is canted itself), can translate to a total miss if shooting at long distance, and since long distance plinking is my main airgun activity (i usually dont like shooting animals), im affraid that just aligning “By sight” wont be accurate enough.
    I also read about placing a spirit level on the gun, and then using a plumb line (a line hanging with weight on its other end), and looking thru the scope at the line, the idea is that the vertical post of the reticle is completely aligned with the line, while the rifle is completely leveled (checked by the spirit level).

    What do you tink about this method? is it worth the extra trouble, or is the other “just by sight” method good enough and im just being paranoid?


  66. Michael,

    It doesn’t take that long to hang a line, attach a weight (creat a plumb line) and use it to align your verticle reticle especially if you have a gun vise. Your gun does have to be level as well. You can buy an inch long level for a couple dollars and place it on a flat spot on your stock or action. Check your screws when tightening the scope rings since they can throw the reticle out of alignment.

    Remember though, you must hold the gun perfectly level when you shoot or the reticle will be out of alignment. An anti-cant device attached to your gun can help with this.


  67. Michael,

    The eyeball method sounds crude, but it actually isn’t. In optics, where measurements have to be true to the millionth of an inch sometimes, they use mostly optical methods, because nothing else is accurate enough.

    Some people (and I was one of them) draw a horizontal line downrange (they use a level) and then cover it with the horizontal crosshair. But they then have to know that the rifle is level.

    What determines when a rifle is level? There is no one surface on a rifle that is meant to be level. We had them on tank guns, but a common rifle doesn’t have one. So the eyeball method turns out to be just as accurate as anything else.

    If you want to shoot the absolute tightest group possible a scoper level is a must. For a plinker it is a waste of time.

    Spend your time shooting–not on gadgets.


  68. Kevin & BB, thank you for your replies.
    BB, you know, what you say makes perfect sense. Lets say i setup the plumb line, get my allen set, and my spirit level, and im all setup to level my scope perfectly. where in gods name im i gonna place the spirit level on the rifle, that GUARANTEES that the rifle is truly leveled in the way it needs to be?

    You know, the reason im concerned with all this leveling stuff, is because i have reasons to suspect my scope is not vertically aligned right now.
    i zero my scope at 30 yards, and its dead on. but then i shoot at 80 yards, and notice the center of my groups are about 1 1/2" to the right, so no big deal, i just adjust a few clicks to the left, and the groups are once again on center, but then i shoot at 30 yards again, and guess what? my shots are about 1 1/2" to the LEFT!
    I have of course taken windage into account, i have repeated this experiment in diferent places, i inverted my position wih that of the target (if it was crosswind, i should now be off ot the opposite side), etc. And its not a wind problem, its something else.
    I have tried this many times, and the error seems consistent.
    If i zero at 30yards, im off to the right at 80, i re-zero at 80, and then im off to the left at 30!!!
    Is there any other reason (besides the scope bein vertically misaligned), that can cause this error?

    Again, thank you for your help.


  69. Michael,

    I had sort of the same problem. A consistant but moving POI. Here a group and there a group. Anyway, mine was caused by changing my cheek weld on the stock. Maybe you’re doing the samr thing?

    There is a current blog that B.B. writes from Monday to Friday. Why don’t you join us there, ask you question again and a whole bunch of good people who share your hobby will help you figure out what’s happening. Here’s the link–/blog//

  70. Michael,

    I’m going to talk tough with you now. Stop trying to do aomething that cannot be done. There is no place on a rifle where the gun can be said to be level. It doesn’t exist. Give it up.

    As for shooting to one side of the tgarget at close range and the other side at long range–that has nothing to do with the scope being level. It has to do with the scope noe being aligned with the axis of the barrel. I wrote about it here:


    and here:


    and here:



  71. I have an M-1 Crosman Carbine that does not shoot. Can anyone fix them? It is not in the best condition but I would like to have it working again. Thank you 🙂

  72. Mike,

    Did you know that B.B. did two more parts in the series on your M-1 Crosman Carbine? Here’s the link that will take you to part 3. To get to part 2 just click on “Part 2” at the top of the article:


    To repair your gun you should talk to Rick Willnecker:
    Contact Rick Willnecker at 717-382-1481 or airgunshop@Aol.com cause he’s the man who will restore your gun to it’s originl specs.


  73. Howdy BB.

    I just read your posts on the Crosman M1 Carbine history. I have one that my dad bought new in the early 1970's that I've been thinking about selling. It's complete and in fairly good shape with bluing wear on the rear of the barrel and other metal parts. Stock is nice and still have the original box which shows wear but is in one piece. I also have a Daisy BB rifle that looks like a Winchester 30-30 lever action. Also have a Daisy western six shooter pistol, a HAHN western six shooter, and a Marksman that looks like a 1911 .45 cal. and it shoots BB's, pellets, or darts. It's still in the original box with holster too. Both the western six shooters have holsters too. Any idea what any of these are worth ??
    My e-mail is, rjr573@yahoo.com if anyone is interested in photos or purchase.

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