Today reader RidgeRunner, shows us the .20-caliber AirForce Condor he got at this year’s North Carolina airgun show. If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.
Take it away, RidgeRunner
AirForce Condor: Part One
By RidgeRunner
RidgeRunner’s .20-caliber AirForce Condor.
This report covers:
- First impressions
- Second impressions
- Pellets
- So, what’s ahead?
- BB’s turn
- They wanted 3000 psi
- Calibers
- Summary
First impressions
On November second, my grandson and I arrived in Newton, North Carolina for the tenth annual North Carolina airgun show. After taking a picture at the entrance of the show, I started going around the tables for a quick look-see at what was on display.
Just past what Baker Airguns had on display was a blue AirForce Condor for sale on a private table. My first impression was WOW! As I had not been there very long, I continued around the tables against the walls and then around the inner tables.
After having made my obligatory circuits, I started concentrating my efforts of trading and buying on the airguns I desired to bring home with me. One of those happened to be a Quackenbush Number 1 BB gun. I was quite willing to swap my Benjamin Armada for it, but after a bit the owner decided he had to have money for it. As I did not have that kind of cash with me, I reluctantly moved on.
Second impressions
Once again I found myself looking down at the blue AirForce Condor. It was at this time I discovered it was a .20. I had wanted to add a .20 to my modest array of airguns at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns for some time now. I was planning on possibly acquiring a Weihrauch, but here was a pretty much brand spanking new AirForce air rifle in .20 laying here before me.
One thing in my favor was the dude wanted my Webley Tomahawk real bad. We went back and forth for a bit until he said okay to us swapping my Benjamin Armada and my Webley for it. I hurriedly packed it up and took it out to the RidgeRunnerMobile before he had a chance to think about what he had just done.
Pellets
I did have one problem with this air rifle though. I did not have any .20 pellets. Well, no matter. I had not had any .25 pellets, either, when I acquired the Armada. I have some .20 pellets now.
1
Not too bad a selection.
So, what’s ahead?
I guess this means I will likely find myself at the range for a bit. Yeah, BB has done a bit back about ten years ago concerning his experiences with a Condor SS, but he has not done too much with the .20 caliber pellets. I know, no one has. There are a few out there with .20 Sheridans and even more rare .20 Weihrauchs. I had an urge to try this caliber out and was not about to buy a Sheridan. As for the Weihrauch — I could have dealt with that if I could find one. But with the Condor , if I get tired of shooting .20 I can change it to a .22 or .25. I have a feeling this one is going to stay like she is.
BB’s turn
I’ve also written a few things about the Condor. And I silenced mine a few years later.
I remember when the Condor first came out in 2004. John McCaslin wanted a .22-caliber pellet rifle that shot pellets at up to 1,200 f.p.s. In those days that velocity was unheard of for .22s. Actually, John might not even remember this but at first he wanted them to go out at 1,250 f.p.s. I know because I tested the first 100 Condors that were produced and we recorded their top velocities with .22-caliber Crosman Premier pellets.
Of 100 Condors, all but a few (6-7?) passed the test and could be shipped. John McCaslin tweaked those rifles that did not pass the first time and made certain they did pass before they were shipped. But what we did not know at that time, and what reader RidgeRunner may not know now is most Condors prefer to be filled to less than 3,000 psi. In the time I worked with Condors it seemed that 2,700-2,800 psi was a good starting max fill pressure. And a few of our customers had strange reactions to that.
They wanted 3000 psi
After the rifles started shipping we would get a phone call very week or so from someone who discovered his rifle wasn’t shooting Premiers at 1200 f.p.s. after a fill. I talked to each of these guys and several times they were chronographing while I was on the phone. In most cases after several shots (5 to 8) the velocity would rise over 1,200 f.p.s. and the customer was pleased. When it did, I told them they would get around 20 shots at that velocity, but if it took 8 shots to get up to that speed, the total shot count with the pellet going over 1,200 f.p.s. might be less than 20. In other words the rifle might get 20 powerful shots that ranged from 1150 f.p.s. to something over 1,200 f.p.s., give or take.
But one guy was not satisfied. “I paid for an air rifle that fills to 3000 psi and this one doesn’t do that!” Yes, his rifle got 1,200 f.p.s. and 20 powerful shots, but it didn’t a fill at the pressure we advertised. I explained that he would be using less air with that rifle but he still was not satisfied. As best I can recall we either refunded his money or exchanged a different rifle for the one he had. If we exchanged rifles you can bet I tested the one we sent back to him before it was shipped.
Calibers
When AirForce developed the Condor Hi-Flo valve the greatest attention was devoted to its performance in a .22 caliber rifle. John tested the valve in .177, but he concentrated on .22 because he felt most buyers would want that caliber. That proved correct, because more than 98 percent of the Condors shipped in the first year were .22. But .177 Condors were also ordered.
As more .177s were sold, however, there were some reports of rifles dumping all their air on the first shot. Some of those reports were resolved by instructing the owners to seat their pellets deep in the barrel, but even with that there were still a couple rifles that dumped all their air. The solution was to increase the firing valve return spring rate for a more positive closure. AirForce then extensively tested the modified valve in both .177 and .22 rifles, and it proved out in both calibers.
However, the fill level of the rifle with the new valve was quite often less than 3,000 p.s.i. It wasn’t true for every rifle, but a fair number of them with the new valve preferred to be filled to not more than 2,800 psi. In a few cases the maximum was as low as 2,600 psi. I remember one customer in California who swore his rifle could only take 2,500 psi, but when I had him check his fill gauge against a calibrated one, he found his gauge was reading low. The fill pressure really was 2,800 psi. That case is the reason I’ve written about the inaccuracy of small pressure gauges.
Summary
So, RidgeRunner, there is some Condor history that might serve you well with your new one. Like you said I have very little experience with .20-caliber pellet rifles in general. But I do know my Condors.
RR,
As B.B. has stated many times, there is nothing Wayward about any Airforce product.
-Yogi
Yogi,
My first PCP was a Talon SS that had a .177 Weihrauch barrel that BB had built for Mac. It is now a .25 and living with Gunfun1. My second PCP was an Edge which BB now possesses, and I would not mind having it come back here. I at present have an old Talon SS in .22, a Texan in .457 and now a Condor in .20. AirForce air rifles can indeed be quite wayward, but not as much as some others can be.
Every once in a while, they have been known to take a journey though they most often find a lasting home pretty quickly. Most often they become wayward because they are single shot, and their owner thinks they have to have multi shot capabilities. To each their own, I guess.
I would recommend an AirForce air rifle to you. You understand single shot actions better than most. All but the Texan can be filled with a hand pump. My first Talon SS achieved the top of the shooting curve at 1900 PSI. That is easy to fill with a hand pump. The Texan is really the only AirForce airgun that is hand pump unfriendly. It just uses too much air.
RidgeRunner,
I recently bought a Talon SS, in .20 caliber (the sale was just too good to pass up). Small groups at 25 yards are (almost) too easy. I’m going to have to wait for spring warmth, to try it out at 50 yards. I know that the pellet selection isn’t as good, but think that I can easily live with that small limitation. As far as hunting goes, effectiveness on small game on the receiving end should be no different than a .22. (Much like deer shot with a .41 Mag, as opposed to a .44, the end result is the same, if shot placement is the same).
Enjoy your range time.
Bill
Bill,
As I type, my thermometer says it is 25 degrees F. outside. It is really not that warm around RRHFWA right now. It has also been rather windy and a little flakey.
As far as range time goes, I could deal with the cold and even some snow, but the wind really plays havoc with groups. 😉
RidgeRunner,
This definitely isn’t your first AirForce rifle. To what sort of purpose will this rifle serve? The .20 caliber had been touted as the best of both worlds (.177 and .22). No doubt that the platform is versatile. But to what ranges will you be using it and at what targets?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I have owned and still own several AirForce air rifles. The main reason for my acquiring this .20 caliber Condor is for my learning. I have no knowledge or experience with either .20 caliber or a Condor.
I have spent quite a bit of time with other AirForce air rifles. They can be a tinker’s dream come true, if you take the time to first learn the original platform. Most newbies become lost very quickly when thinking this simple design is simple.
As far as ranges go, I can see me stretching this out to one hundred yards. That is what I have marked off on my range. As far as targets go, paper, cardboard and the occasional feral soda can. Since I no longer need to feed myself or my family, I quit killing critters a long time ago. I do like to keep my shootin’ eye in though.
I am looking at the clearance AirForce guns, especially one that’s also a .20! I have noticed there aren’t any “junk” pellets produced in .20, unlike .177 and .22.
OP,
This is true. Though there are not many pellets made these days, they are all pretty much top shelf. RG did send me a bunch of the old .20 pellets that were made once upon a time, and I will see what they do in this thing. I might even let you guys know about it. 😉
.20 was always a mysterious one for me. It is something everyone would like to have actually but nobody goes this way.
tomek,
Just hazarding a guess here, but with the increase in velocity and accuracy of the .22, most people went that way. The .20 was a compromise between the .177 and the .22. It is/was heavier and larger than the .177, yet lighter and faster than the .22. I personally think it is a caliber that is being overlooked to the detriment of the airgun world.
It doesn’t help that the .20 is often sold for a premium of $30-50 over .177 and .22. (Glares at Weirauch.)
OP,
LOL! That is like no salt or sugar added to food is more expensive than food with salt or sugar. You pay more for less. Mrs. RR and I have started recently to drink what we call unbeer. It has no alcohol in it. What this means is it is easier and does not take as long to make yet costs more than regular beer.
Weihrauch is charging more for the .20 caliber. This could be that because it is a “non-standard,” caliber, yet still desired by a few hardy souls, they are being forced to keep the equipment around to provide such on special order.
Of course, that is assuming that it is Weihrauch that is charging the extra amount. It could be the retailer that is charging the extra amount, justifying such by their assumption of risk in stocking such.
Hey, it is our own fault that .20 is almost as rare as Dodo birds. If we bought more, there would be more.
On this side of the pond we want more speed, more power! On the other side of the pond there are serious restrictions on such. Over yonder those folks have learned to do with much less speed/power than we waste. Do you really need 100 FPE to kill a squirrel? “Yeah, but I’m a stupid redneck who has 5000 HP under the hood of my pick’em up truck with the $1000 per tire on it to go to the grocery store and get a jug of milk. Duhaduhaduha.”
Sorry, I digress. I see way too much of this where I live. Back to the .20. We as airgunners can create a revival of the .20 buy opening our wallets a little wider and spending more on .20 airguns and pellets. If no one else, Uncle Xi’s cohorts will respond. They may not like us, but they do like our greenbacks.
Photographing for Guest Blogs, PT-5
RR, did you not realize that your pictures were an example of what not to do when photographing an airgun.
If you just change the words to “Can you find an air rifle in this picture/” all will be forgiven. 😉
Bob M,
Hey, give me a break. I am still learning. Anyway, I can see it just fine.
BB,
Is the Bounty Hunter more powerful than a regular Condor. Kind of remember it being set up for hunting as the name implies. The High Flow air valve perhaps? Or, is the High-Flow only on the new Spin-Loc bottle. Mine is a .22.
Does each caliber have its own air valve? Can’t imagine what a 25 Cal. Condor would do with a 177 barrel swap on high power. Vaporize a pellet ?
Bob,
I flat out don’t know. When I get a chance to ask AirForce I will.
BB
Good ol’.20 cal – Sheridan’s solution to a problem that didn’t exist 😉
Bob R,
It actually did at the time. As I pointed out before, it had more “power” than the .177 of the time and was faster than the .22 of the time.
Here’s some words from Robert Beeman regarding calibers for Airguns:
“ My highest recommendation for air rifle caliber generally is .20 caliber (5 mm). . The trajectory is almost as flat as a.177, but it has greater efficiency from the very same powerplant. This, and the heavier pellets with larger frontal area, means much better impact. However, if energy were the ruling matter, we should all simply go to .22 and .25 caliber. Useful as those calibers are for certain purposes, I certainly do not feel that they would be the top recommendations for a shooter who is planning to buy his first adult air rifle. An ideal combination for field use would be a .20 caliber and a .25 caliber air rifle. I would recommend .177 caliber only for air pistols and for official match shooting which specify that caliber.”
If you want to read more about Robert Beeman’s choices here a link to the interesting article that the above quote came from: https://www.beemans.net/best%20airguns.htm
I hope you like the new AirForce Condor RR. Please let us know.
Elmer,
Thank you for those words of wisdom. I could not have said better myself. It has been my thought process for many years.
Elmer,
Sheridan missed a trick by not producing air rifles in .235 cal which would have had flatter trajectory than .25 cal and greater impact than .22 cal.
Bob Beeman would have highly recommended that also.
Maybe, but I doubt it. If you think back in time, it was not too long ago that .22 and .25 had a rainbow trajectory. You sort of lobbed them out there.
Now we lob .35, .45, .50 and up out there and their trajectories are getting flatter as airguns become more powerful.
RidgeRunner,
Your background reminds me of a pair of FlipFlops someone gifted me many years ago ;^)
I’m glad you omitted my favorite airgun caliber in your list: “Now we lob .35, .45, .50 and up out there and their trajectories are getting flatter as airguns become more powerful.” My favorite is .308 caliber (7.62) since it is the MOST efficient, wind bucking, and flat (at and below 250yds/meters) shooting caliber in airguns at this point. It carries enough energy from a powerful airgun due to the superior BC/Drag Count out to those longer ranges to easily and humanly take medium sized game and pests; inside of 100 with a qualified shooter (do NOT do a GAMO self deception please) even larger game/pests are not outside of the projectiles Terminal Ballistics.
.308/7.62 is the Goldie Locks caliber!
shootski
shootski,
I have no experience with that caliber in airguns. If I had bought those two from Dennis, I would.
As far as Goldie Locks is concerned, she can keep her three bears. I have enough around here.
Bob Ryan,
Some UK company tried that in the 25 caliber arena by making and trying to sell .243 as better than .25 which of course didn’t go well. The impetus for the .243 in airguns came from the powder arms that for a time believed the .243 Winchester was the Holy Grail of firearm cartridges that could take small game/varmints as well as harvest big game. I believe Lothar-Walther actually built some barrels for the airguns.
But you know…hope springs eternal in hunters and varminters ;^)
shootski
With shootski on duty, that buck is heading for a 0.308 caliber “dead end,” sure as shootin’.
I find your comment about the .243 very interesting. Look at the progression:
0.177 inches — 4.5 mm
0.20 — 5mm
0.217 (“.22”) — 5.5mm
>>0.236 (“.243?”) — 6mm
0.256 (“0.25”) — 6.5mm
I know, someone will tell me my numbers are not precise, but close enough to see a pattern.
Roamin,
As I recall, there was a gun writer in the 70’s (60’s?) who referred to the .243 Winchester as the “6mm NATO”. He seemed to think that it was a ‘do-it-all’ round.
Bill
Roamin Greco,
With all the wildcat cartridges that have been made there probably are any number that would fit your progression perfectly.
As far as the Buck he is probably safe until late next year when the county staff hire professional sharpshooters to cull the whitetail overpopulation.
Can you believe that that isn’t even the biggest Buck i have spotted inside the Capital Beltway.
Private property may still be found in need of protection…
shootski
That buck is way bigger than the one that was running around in my neighborhood a few weeks ago. Hopefully, they hire you to cull the herd.
Elmer
Thanks for sharing the Beeman link. I’ve read it before, but that was many years ago. Back when it was written, (around 2001) he said springers were the #1 seller and made up 85% of adult air gun sales. I wonder today what those #’s would look like. I’d bet PCP are #1 now or at least close (maybe if someone from PA is reading this they can enlighten us). Also in the article I find it interesting that in 1993, concerning Beeman guns, .20 cal was the best seller. And also .25 out sold .22 10 to 1! Wow. Wonder what those #s would be like today. I do wish the .20 was more popular. I wish the same gun in .20 wasn’t higher than those in .177 or .22. I also wish for more .20 pellets and better pricing. Seems like .20 just can’t be bought anywhere. Much harder to find. I’ve never owned a .20
Doc
Yes, I am relatively new to the Airgun world. But I continue to learn a lot. We do have to put Robert Beeman’s words into proper context according to the times in which he wrote that. Thanks!
Some have been asking, why .20? Well, the truth is best explained by Robert Beeman, thanks to the link that Elmer Fudd has provided.
Do I like AirForce airguns? You betcha. I would not recommend them to newbies, but to those who know what they are doing, (or at least think so) they can be a wonderful experience.
Technically, you can buy one AirForce air rifle and change it to whatever caliber you desire within reason. The truth is you will more than likely leave it at a particular caliber and buy another AirForce air rifle in a different caliber. At this very moment I have three AirForce air rifles in three different calibers and would not mind if a few more moved in.
Some folks out there will say “Yeah, but it is only a single shot.” I have had experience with single shot, bolt action, lever action, semi and full auto firearms in my time on this Earth. What I have learned over the years is if you cannot hit your intended target with the first shot, what makes you think you will do better with a quick follow up?
RR-
Your philosophy works until you are in a target rich environment. If all you are needing is for plinking or static targets, single shots are all you need.
Whatever. To each his or her own.
RR-
When it counts- last summer- mama groundhog and three little ones succumbed to one of my ARs in a flurry of semi auto shots. Only one pup got back in the hole. I don’t raise soy beans for a hobby.
paco,
With a silenced single shot air rifle there is a goo chance none of them would have made it to the hole.
Like I said, to each his and her own.
Sooo, RR – as FM considers himself a “newbie” and will probably consider himself so until the day his “air tank” is empty, should he not even think of coming close to an AF? Because this article and others written about the AirForce airguns have sure whetted his appetite for bringing one home. If that were to happen, it would be a .25; blame the HW90 for giving FM a taste for the twenty-five.
FM be good with single-shot platforms – all the “ladies” at Casa FM are single-shooters; when it comes to .22 rimfire, that little one-shot Gustloff trainer is a fun one, accurate too.
FM,
You may classify yourself as a newbie, but no one else would. You should get whatever caliber in an AirForce model you want. Now, if you were to bring home a TalonP, I just might be tempted to trade my Talon SS for it. You could keep your precious .25 barrel and I could keep my .22 barrel. You or I could just swap them out. They would work either/or.
.20 My first airgun was a Sheridan HB pistol, followed by a Model E in chrome, (with a 3 digit serial number,) Then a 1958 Blue Streak, the same as my model year. I sent that one to TM for steroid treatment, not for more power, but for same power with less effort. I don’t know if he’s still doing it, but I would highly recommend it. My affair with .20 summited with an HW R1AW, beautiful, versatile rifle!. All have since moved on, and all are missed, but like a pet who died, the memories are worth the heartache.
A few years ago, I decided to go single .177 caliber, and have been happy with that choice. YMMV.
To whom it may concern, I am still hoping to come across a tin of Benjamin .20 pellets.
Hello,
This is my first post though I have enjoyed reading the blog for many years. I am following the discussions on the airforce rifle with great interest and it awakened something 😉 which led to this post.
I have an aging condor (the version with the old tank without pressure gauge) in the basement that has not been used for many years. Too much noise and drama for me.
The recent discussions started me thinking about turning it into something more sedate, .177 with a 12″ barrel and sound-loc silencer module. I believe the air tank will need to be swapped too for a Talon tank and the hammer lightened to match. Around 12 ftlbs is the target. Is that all that would be needed however, new barrel, air tank and sound lock kit, or am I missing something?
Does anyone here have experience with the use of the sound-loc kit in the condor frame?
Cornelius
Cornelius,
Please wait until I report on the SHOT Show in January. Something you want is coming but I can’t say what yet. You’ll see it the week of January 19, 2025.
Also, read the reports I linked to today. There is a MicroMeter tank that may give you what you want.
And welcome to the blog as a commenter!
BB
Hello BB,
Now I am very curious and weirdly find myself looking forward more to January 19th than to Christmas :-D.
I considered the micrometer tank but then I still have the 24″ barrel with external silencer to contend with. The full length condor looks great imo but I fancy the practicality of a more silent, compact setup for indoor/urban shooting and lightening the hammer may dampen the shooting cycle somewhat? Then again, the micrometer tank would be the simplest and cheapest solution so worth a thought. Lets see what January the 19th brings.
Cornelius
Cornelius,
The week of Jan 19. The 19th is a Sunday. Probably Tuesday.
BB
Cornelius,
Welcome!
PS: sadly the page seems to be gone to the Bit Bucket. The concept of using the CO2 adapter to use a “paintball” hpa Cylinder with Regulator is still a valid approach; even moreso today compared to 20 orso years ago!
I don’t own an AirForce gun but did a great deal of research on them along the way to going with what airguns i do own. The following information was in my files from back in 2009 or so that you may find of interest: ”
Microtank isn’t doing all that great because people have the CO2 adaptor, which was either free or at least, cheap. Guys are putting HPA paintball tanks with regulators on theirt(stet) CO2 adaptors, for cheap, and are able to shoot at low power and high shot count as they wish, check this link out:
“http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6287
I shopped for a microtank, and then lost interest.”
The post is from the Talon Tunes forum.
shootski
Cornelius, welcome, and may the Airforce be with you!
While we await the Shot Show, consider that you might not need the whole Sound-Loc kit, as an SS end cap alone might give enough muffling at 12 fpe. With just the end cap and no baffle cones the puft of air is noticeable but not loud, like a multi-pump at 2 pumps. With baffles it is just hammer and pellet strikes.
I’m worried that in the wrong hands Airforce guns are a little too easy to play with, swap, mix and match parts, tune for high or low power in whatever caliber. I can’t resist infinite possibilities and don’t play with the other guns anymore.
Mike
Just did some digging.
20 Cal. pellets are slightly longer than 22 Cal. pellets of the same weight and drag more in the barrel thereby producing a lower velocity.
Also. This may only apply to the new Spin-Loc air bottles?
And it looks like the Condor Bounty Hunter came with a threaded barrel and flash hider, forgot about that.
Probably ended that when they added noise suppression in one way or another. No need for an aftermarket device accommodation, threads.
The flash hider was handy when you had too much oil in the barrel, but I think it was added just to look B/A.
Bob,
Looks like the .177 valve is a special deal now.
BB
“I had an urge to try this caliber out and was not about to buy a Sheridan.”
RidgeRunner,
It looks like you got yourself a nice addition to RRHFWA; but if you ever see a nice Sheridan C-model in .20 caliber you might want to snap it up; they are a real working man’s rifle; with a nice Williams peep sight on it, they are a nice hunter. pester, or plinker; mine was my first airgun ever, and I’ve still got her…and she still shoots just great; the only change I’ve made is to switch from the Sheridan cylindrical pellets I used as a teenager to the modern .20 caliber diabolo pellets from JSB; they really improved the accuracy! 😉
Blessings to you,
dave