Benyamin air rifle A rare gun emerges at Roanoke

by B.B. Pelletier

So I was just standing there looking at a table when this man walked up and introduced himself. Said he had a Benyamin pump rifle and would I like to see it? Would I?


This Benyamin multi-pump is a sharp-looking air rifle – from a distance. The image breaks down with examination.

What he had is indeed a Benyamin – not a Benjamin – though in one place on the gun the name is spelled that way. The black rubber recoil pad, which is held to the stock by two nails (!), says Benyamin, and the steel receiver says Benjamin. The gun is .177 caliber, or .177 call. as it says on the receiver.


This is how it’s spelled on the recoil pad. The horse also appears on Beeman’s example. Notice the two nails that hold the recoil pad to the gun!


On the receiver BENJAMIN is spelled with a J. After that are the letters FR. (France – as in French Indochina?). Under that is “MOD. TONKI AIR RIFLE”


The caliber on the receiver. All letters appear hand-stamped.

Think you don’t know what a Benyamin is? If you own the Blue Book of Airguns 7th Edition, think again. You’ll find it at the bottom of page 124, just after the Benjamin listings. Robert Beeman wrote the single paragraph description that begins “Maker unknown…”

But I like the last sentence the best. It reads, “Extreme rarity precludes accurate pricing on this model.” That’s what I’m talking about! I showed that passage to the gun’s owner before we continued our talk.

Beeman speculates the gun might possibly be of Philippine or even U.S. origins, but at the show I got a different opinion. Davis Schwesinger, the former owner of Air Rifle Specialists, who lived in the Philippines, said he thinks it might be an Indonesian gun. And a friend of mine who was born and raised in the Philippines looked at it and said the same thing.

My wife researched the Benyamin name and found that it could have originated in French Indochina (Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam before 1954). They spell Benjamin with a Y.

The fact is, however, we do not know for sure where this rifle was made. Maybe a reader from that part of the world can help.

The gun is larger than any American Benjamin multi-pump. It seems 20 percent bigger in every way. The steel barrel is about 23″ and the length overall is 40.25″. Length of pull is 13-15/16″. The rifle weighs 6 lbs. on the nose. Compare that to a Benjamin 392 that weighs 5.5 lbs. and has a 19.25″ barrel on a 36.25″ rifle.

The strangest feature, from a host of strange ones, is the sheet steel triggerguard that has been fashioned into a finger lever shape. The rifle is a bolt-action single-shot, but it has this deceptive lever-looking guard that, although immobile, looks ready for action.


Here you can see the sheetmetal triggerguard that’s formed into a finger lever. It doesn’t move. This is a bolt-action single-shot. One of the stock rivets is seen at the upper left.

The barrel appears unrifled. It’s too dark inside to see any detail, but a pellet run down the bore emerged without the characteristic land marks of rifling. However, the pellet was squeezed down quite a bit, so the bore is tight. From the feel of the pellet’s traverse, the bore is as rough as a city sewer pipe.

The stock is strangely shaped with angles and flat spots not found anywhere else. The cheekrest is scalloped slightly, like a subtle Tyrolean. The pistol grip is stippled with a striped pattern of large dots. The pump lever wood is held on by four crude rivets. Two more rivets sit just above the triggerguard on the buttstock.


The cheekrest is slightly scalloped – a nice touch.

The steel sleeve that holds the rear sight leaf has what would be called filework on a handmade knife. The top of the rear sight leaf is also filed in a coarse crosshatch pattern. All the steel is blued, but patina and some rust have replaced about half of it. The pump tube is brass with no finish.


File work on the rear sight is hand done.

This rifle does not pump and will not cock. It would probably be simple to restore to operation given the overall simplicity of the design, but there’s little point. As rare as Dr. Beeman says it is, this rifle is for collecting, not shooting. Uncharacteristically, I won’t be doing a test-fire for you.

I saved the best for last. This is not the same gun Beeman shows in the Blue Book. It’s a completely different model. So, Benyamin comes in at least two separate models.

I imagine that in this rifle’s country of origin, it may not be that rare. But here in the U.S., it’s very uncommon. Are these the only two in the U.S.? I doubt it. Talking about the gun may reveal many things we didn’t know before, and more guns may yet pop up in collectors’ hands.

Yes, I bought the gun. It practically jumped into my hands at the show. Like I said, the 2008 Roanoke Airgun Expo was the best airgun show I’ve ever attended.

108 thoughts on “Benyamin air rifle A rare gun emerges at Roanoke

  1. OK I lost my pellet cross reference link.

    As previously listed at PA (.22cal), I can assume a Beeman Kodiak extra heavy 21.10gr dome pellet is a H&N Baracuda 21.14gr dome pellet.

    The BAM 26-2 blog you mention AA pellets made by JSB. PA lists pellets in .177 cal AA dome 8.44gr and JSB 8.4gr and in .22 cal. AA 16gr dome and JSB 15.8gr. Are they the same? My guess is that they are the same, but the weight difference in the .22 does seem significantly different. I guess I'll have to find my scale.

    Generally, I've bought them all pretty much at one time or another. Not sure if it's just a good lots from time to time or psychological, but I seem to do better with the H&N and AA.

    As for the Benyamin, It's hard to find anything out there on them.


  2. B.B., regarding your Ben(y/j)amin, the “Fr.” would be for “Frères”, the French abbreviation for brothers. In other words, “Benjamin Bros.”
    Thanks for the interesting post.



  3. Dear B. B.
    Ihave not a comment but a ?. I have a gamo shadow that I replaced the trigger from detuna and I was so pleased I sent it out to have the gun tuned. Oh the cal. is 177. The tune was completed and the accuracy dived. I could not zero the scope after the tune. I changed the scope the rings but did not have enough adjustment in the scope to zero it. The mounts were b-square and accushot from pyramid air. The scopes were BSA 4×32 and a bug buster 4×32.I ave done everything I know but it is still shooting low 31/2″ and wide to right 3/1/2. I am at wits end. Do you have any suggestions—PLEASE–
    Earl


  4. ajvenom,

    The pellet weight difference is caused by different people weighing different pellets on different days. They even change their policy from posting hundredths of a grain (too small!) weights to tenths, from time to time. So the pellets seem slightly different.

    I wish statistics was a required high school subject.

    B.B.


  5. Earl,

    If the accuracy went bad after the tune, I don’t know what to say. But from your description, the AIM POINT – not the accuracy – seems to be affected. Which is it? Or is it both?

    I suspect the hinge joint in this case. And with that, I also suspect a new breech seal that may have been installed. Try to wobble the barrel from side the side with the gun cocked. Does it move at all? If so, the hinge joint is too loose.

    Talk to me.

    B.B.




  6. B.B.

    Your Karma must be the best on the planet!!

    He just walks up, you tell him it's very, very rare, and he still sells it to you…

    It all goes back to the Beemans wife's gun deal you made…. and then passed it back at no profit…

    Good Karma Dude!!! You live right!!!

    We are all lucky to know you, and have your comments about the air gun world…

    Wayne,
    AARR&R


  7. OT again.

    OK, all this gun show and new gun talk has me worked up. I haven’t been able to get in any outdoor shooting for weeks and the pistol in the basement is getting stale. It’s time for some retail therapy.

    I was thinking of getting a new spring gun to work on technique. My Discovery is so nice I think it allows me too many bad habits for a new shooter. I have a Gamo Shadow 1000 that I can’t get the hang of. (Anybody interested in taking it off my hands?) I was looking at the Hammerli 490 Express and Mendoza RM-200. I am leaning toward the .22 Mendoza.

    I will be backyard plinking with open sights and occasionally shooting indoors. I want a 12fpe or lower gun. Am I on the right track? I have read the blog entries on both.


  8. B.B.

    Discovery comes today. I’m growing weak. I have an appt. at noon. If I make a sale, I think I will declare the Crosman is no longer a Christmas gift. It is my day off, so I need some extra reward.

    Volvo works on 100% commission. Looks like these guys will feel a tad of pressure this afternoon since an air rifle is riding on


  9. B.B.,

    Nice article.

    I’m sure its old hat to you to I found the story of the Beemans and the Lewis and Clark airgun spell binding. See:
    http://www.beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm

    I thought PCPs were a “modern” innovation. It never occurred to me that an army would actually issue an air gun.

    Question: Were the Girandoni-system airguns the first PCPs?

    Herb








  10. RE: Searching the blogs

    B.B. et al.,

    Found that using url “www.pyramydair.com/blog”
    in “plain” Goggle Search gives better searching than blog search function on blog web pages.

    Don’t know why, but for a number of one word searches this proved to be the case.

    “Plain” search function also has other options for more flexibility…

    Herb


  11. B.B.

    So what makes a gun valuable to a collector? Rarity seems to be the only thing going for this gun, but that can’t be the only criteria.

    Earl, wow, you make me glad that I haven’t sent my guns out for tuning. My solution is to go back to the tuner and explain things to him.

    Herb, nice diagram. But it’s in German(!) If Gesobwegs refers to caliber, what are 8000 of them? I’m in perfect agreement that projectiles travel in spiral paths, but surely that diagram is not to scale, at least the dashed line does not mark the actual path of the bullet. Never heard of nutation. Could that be the answer to all this?

    BG_Farmer, the First Law of Motion says that there must be some force (however small and transitory) to get a projectile moving sideways at all, otherwise, it would remain pointed at the target. As for what this force is, you ask all the hard questions.

    The same for twist rate about which I know little, but I do this at work all the time. My understanding of twist rate is that it spins the projectile to stabilize it. I once asked a physics professor why spin has this effect and didn’t really understand the answer. But it’s enough for me that spinning footballs are more stable than ones that don’t spin and that spinning baseballs are more stable than knuckleballs. I then wondered what could be the problem with overstabilizing a projectile since in this case, it seems that you cannot have too much of a good thing.

    The only answer I could find is that an overstabilized projectile will not keep the nose pointed in the direction of motion. In other words, as the projectile starts to drop from gravity, it’s nose will keep pointing forward. So, its cross-section along the downward pointing path will no longer be a minimum which will degrade accuracy. So getting back to twist rates, my understanding is that you want to match a twist rate with a projectile weight that is the heaviest for which you can get a maximum spin short of overstabilizing it. (I’ve heard that 69 grains is right for a 1:9 twist for .223. Is that right?)

    Unfortunately, this model of overstabilization does not seem to apply to our MOA question because overstabilization only effects things late in the shot instead of at the beginning and because it only seems to control vertical displacement which is just half of the source of group size.

    Matt61


  12. Two Talon,
    Thank you for responding yesterday – I wish it were that easy to solve my problem, but I made an error of ommission in what I wrote yesterday.

    Actually, I am looking where I can buy at least 10-20 tines of H.& N. .25 HOLLOW POINT pellets.

    Thanks again.

    – Dr. G.



  13. Off Topic,

    I had the Mendoza RM200 in .22 cal. It is a very sweet little rifle.. I shot it a lot when I first got it. and it was fairly accurate and smooth to shoot. Mine got the full 600fps with 11.9gr. hobbys… I took a few squirrels off the bird feeder at 15 yards with it..

    I did have a problem with the barrel getting loose at the hinge point, after about 3,000 shots, but PA took care of it for me…

    I think you’ll love it, but shoot it a lot in the first 30 days… so you can send it back if it fails..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  14. ib I’m a fan of Mendoza RM-600 and .22 cal. so my choice of those two would be the Mendoza RM-200. Plus power for small game too.

    I’ll trade you my springer for your disco…LOL!!!!!

    One of my favorite links about twist rates:

    http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-barrel-twist-rates.html

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_twist_list.htm

    1:9 seems a bit fast going up 9 grains from the common 55-60 grains I’ve shot with 1:14 and 1:12.

    Then again:

    http://le.atk.com/pdf/223_MinimumTwistRates.pdf

    As for physics…..just be the pellet….be the pellet.



  15. Matt,

    Collector value is more complex than just rarity. For example, a spring gun collector would have no interest in this gun. A pneumatic collector would want it and a Benjamin collector might actually have to have it.

    Then there are collectors of oddities. like me (I mean I collect oddities – not that I am … Oh, what the heck!). They would really want something like this, as well.

    B.B.



  16. B.B.

    I suppose this starts to get into the question of that overpowering need to own a particular gun for no clear reason that I have experienced.

    ajvenom, if 1:9 is too fast that means that 69 grains is too light but the final diagram seems to indicate that it is too heavy if I’m reading it correctly. I guess I’ll buy it as the outer limit of what’s possible. At my hundred yard range it probably won’t make much difference anyway. Thanks.

    Matt61




  17. Matt,

    We’re chipping away at you (thanks Herb):). The distances are in calibers and the pictures are to scale, as far as I can tell, but its hard to read the captions.

    That paper was the best one I could find on the topic, although its web-organization concept is obviously dated. Pre-.PDF I suppose. The math makes my head hurt when I try to put it all together, but I’m pretty sure it has most of the answers. Nutation and precession are most often found in discussions of gyroscopes and similar objects (planets for example on the macroscale). Nutation means “nodding” literally.


  18. OT

    b.b., I’m coming to you for the final word.
    I’ve decided that I want to practice some pistol shooting. Nothing serious, just some basement practice.
    Being that I’m a huge James Bond fan (Connery…the real James Bond) I’ve been looking on Pyramyd’s site at the Walther PPK.
    Will I be able to fulfill my fantasy with this gun…is it of reasonable quality.

    CowboyDad


  19. B.B. & All,

    I must have too many air rifles, because it took me, almost a month to put a scope on and test the 10 year old Air Arms .22 cal. S310, that I bought used…. I thought it would be loud, because it has a smaller diameter barrel than my new Air Arms S410, but it is shrouded as well, and it's very quite..like the s410..

    It doesn't have a power adjuster or gauge, but it's got the 10 shot magazine and a straight pull rather than the side lever action..

    It's built very sturdy. It does have a valve lock issue, unlike my S410 which starts out at 1041fps on a 205 bar fill and goes steadily down. The S310 on a 205 bar fill starts at 761fps with JSB 16 gr Exacts, peaks at 931fps at shot 68, and then falls back to 720fps on shot 110, with the gauge on the scuba tank showing 55 bar when I started to refill it.

    I tried a fill of only 180 bar and the first shot was under the peak at 840fps, and the 20th 937fps… so the peak must be at about 170 bar.

    That's a pretty large difference in only 20 shots, but I'm going to see how it does at 50 yards… last night Randy & I shot at 20 yards indoors and it was shooting groups with the S410 or even better, so I didn't notice the difference in fps, shooting 80 shots on a fill…. the 50 yard test will tell.

    I'll let you know tonight or tomorrow… But meanwhile those looking for a good used PCP, add the Air Arms S310 to your list..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  20. Cowboy Day,

    I think the PPK/S is a wonderful BB gun. I own two of them. I love the way the blowback operates.

    I like this airgun so much that I bought a Walther PPK/S in .22 caliber long rifle, just for a companion.

    I have heard people criticize this model. It doesn’t have this or that. Yeah, and it doesn’t have bucket seats, either, but neither does a PPK/S firearm. I know. I have one!

    Just don’t expect great accuracy. This is a 12-foot gun, and shoot at a Shoot-N-C target. That’s fun.

    B.B.


  21. BB,
    Will the Leapers droop compensating mount designed for the modern Diana rifles work on a Diana 60? I want to scope it but it has horrible droop.

    Thanks,

    David Enoch



  22. BB,

    I like that Benyamin. It seems to be a little more complex a story than the fake Rolexes…i.e. the pseudo-lever (hand guard?) and the cheek rest. I know I will be boo-ed out of the discussion, but the quality of work doesn’t look that different from the worn Benjamin that a friend had when we were kids — I bet this one looked pretty sharp when new.


  23. BG_Farmer,

    I know it’s hard to see the details, but look close at the caliber lettering and you’ll get a sense of what I mean by rough and crude. I’m not searching for another way to say simple, which is what those early Benjamins were. This one really is a little rougher.

    B.B.


  24. bg_farmer,

    I’m not booing…. I think that wood looks a lot like the Indonesian walnut on the Evanix AR6, but it’s hard to tell from the photo.

    B.B., do you think it looks like the wood on the Renegade you just reviewed?

    But, Please!!! Stop telling B.B. how cool it is.. I’m trying to trade him out that piece of junk…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  25. Wayne,

    Without a doubt this wood is similar to what Evanix uses today – it’s just not worked as well. In my December column for Shotgun News I referred to it as Asian Monkeywood, which you will find on Farco guns, LDs and of course Evanixs.

    And, Wayne, it is as cool as blue suede shoes, and I know it!

    B.B.


  26. BB,
    I understand what you are trying to say and, of course, your judgement is far beyond mine on this kind of thing, not to mention the fact that you have it in your hands!

    Wayne,
    That shade always reminds me of the panelling we had in our den (pre-family room) as a kid: we thought that it was the height of elegance:).


  27. Bruce in IL,

    The Hammerli 490 is a very nice rifle, especially for the price – quiet, light kick, easy to operate. It’s my “go to” garage rifle.

    B.B. – Wouldn’t making the Benyamin operable make it more valuable (assuming that you could fix it and keep it original). Hard to believe that I got to hold such a unique gun.

    Ballistics 101

    Too little spin = knuckle ball

    Correct spin = fastball

    Too much spin = curve ball

    Randy


  28. Randy,

    Hard to say about the operation thing. At any rate it wouldn’t be me doing the work. I’d send this one to a real top pneumatic guy because he may have to manufacture some valve parts.

    B.B.


  29. bg_farmer,

    There you go again… your suppose to tell B.B. how no one would want such a thing.. you know like who’s going to sell parts for it? and look at that scratch over there.. and look at that rust… and what crude workmanship… ok? that kind of thing.. come on now…

    Wayne,


  30. Actually it’s Bruce in RI. the il Bruce thing was a bike club joke. I guess I can be a bit of a dictator.

    I found out later the Italians use “Il Bruce” as a nickname for Bruce Springsteen and former US Soccer coach Bruce Arena…

    I am still torn. I’m leaning toward teh Mendoza to get a.22.

    I have not had a .22 rifle.

    Happy Halloween. I’m off to answer the door.

    B


  31. Wacky Wayne,did you ever recieve the Arisaka rifle you mentioned a while back?I am curious about which arisaka you were getting…some of them can be real nice. frankb


  32. il bruce,

    Another vote for Hammerli 490 — cocks like there’s no spring (BB measured 13lbs. I think), and fires quite smoothly. The only weaknesses are that the trigger can be heavy (needs lubrication to prevent that) and mine seems to need a shot of chamber lube about every 500 shots to stay squeak-free (tight piston seal?). The sights are top-notch (at this level of the market:)). I’ve had groups near 0.1″ at 10M with Meisterkugelns, although I always choke on the 4th shot (my current jinx) and the flyer pushes me out to 3/8. Much better choice of pellets in .177, too.


  33. Just got home. Long but successful appointment. Plumber, electrician. HVAC installer, framer, roofer, flooring installer, excavator, surveyor, finish carpenter, punch out guy and so on will all have a little more cash for the holidays.

    So I’m staring at the shipping box, should I wait for Christmas or open the Discovery today?

    Volvo


  34. il Bruce – is that prounounced “eel brew-chay”?

    Volvo – I’d hate to waste two months of warranty (or the 30 day return, if you got it from PA). Unfortunately, I think that you HAVE to open it and give it a test.

    B.B. – A blog ot two ago you mentioned the 4-pack of pellets from PA. They were in sealed bags but the nice folks there would cut them open so that you get four tins that you could use.

    Randy


  35. Volvo: I hate to say it man, but if it was purchased as a Christmas present you should wait, unless maybe the money you gave the misses was for her to spend on herself for her Christmas was done and she is currently enjoying the use of whatever she bought. Then I’d say open the box unless maybe you have kids that you’re trying to teach selfcontrol; then I’d say open the box when they’re not home and ENJOY. Ask Wayne. I’m sure he’s got some better reasons to atleast explain why today can be considered Christmas. How about losing at least 1/12 of your warranty time? Mr B.


  36. Cowboy Dad,

    I have a PPK/S BB gun and I like it! Don’t shoot me, but I got it as a clearance item at KMart for about $7! Of course the CO2 piercing knob broke on me and I had to replace it, but it was worth it. It is a great gun to get the kids used to the proper hold for semi-auto handguns and they love shooting empty soda cans with it (me too)!

    .22 multi-shot


  37. Volvo,

    You need to use the “Were starting the twelve days of Christmas a little early, because were using the Mayan calendar” one…. Play some pan pipes on the CD player…
    Everyone gets to open one now…

    Oh! you forgot to have one for everyone? Then this is the family gift, right?

    Really, you must put 2,000 pellets through it before 30 days (but maybe it doesn’t matter, because you didn’t buy it from PA, did you? shame! shame! what’s $100 anyway, only a few extra Christmas gifts.).. I had a breech seal blow out, and a striped stock screw on one of mine..

    Besides, you deserve it for the great sales job you did today.. FOR SURE!!

    Now, just sell the family…

    Wayne


  38. Frank B.

    Yes I did get the Arisaka rifle, and it is the 6.5 I believe… It is very rusty and needs some work before we try to fire it.. I guess it will be hard to find rounds for it, I haven't found any locally yet… any ideas where online? I really like the looks and feel of it, and I want to shoot it… Nate is going to clean it up and get it ready to shoot. He's got the CZ Mauser too. He is really into the WWII rifles… he was going to take the Mauser deer hunting until I let him use the Ruger .270 & Marlin 336.

    I'll let you know how it does..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  39. BB,
    I’ve really enjoyed your expertise, I’d like your opinion on a rifle. A local dealer has an R-1 that has been sitting on his shelf for 5 yrs–it has the price tag from 5 yrs ago on it! It is still in the box but has been opened and has a few small nicks on the stock. It’s in .177—I can get it for $440 out the door–would you buy it? I’m more interested in .20 or .22, but this seems like a good deal. Thanks for your opinion
    Bret H.


  40. CowboyDad, I recently read a review of the PPK where the shooter claimed greatly improved accuracy using Daisy Avanti BB’s.

    I hope so, because the 2 I had shot like bird poop with regular grade BB’s. Soda can at 15 feet? Maybe 5 out of 10. Maybe. I’ve had (and have) spring and gas powered airsoft guns that ran rings around this thing for accuracy.


  41. Bret H.,

    Shoot that demo R-1 across a chrony before you but it. Not sure how many times in the past 5 years someone has cocked the gun and dry fired it (without a pellet) but I’ll bet at least once and once is all it may take. I have a recent story about a like new (probably 93%) condition diana 34 I purchased from a gun shop. Shot very weak. Cocked fairly easily. Sent it in for a tune. Tuner sent me a picture of the broken mainspring and damaged piston seal. Very likely from dry firing. If you’re smarter than me you’ll find out the fps before assuming this is a deal.

    B.B.-Considering you’re the collector that you have confessed to being, you must feel that your birthday came early. I’m happy for you and envious of your knowledge to be able to recognize such a find. Congratulations.

    kevin


  42. BG_Farmer, chip away by all means. I’ll be as interested as anyone in the answer. :-)

    Volvo, of course open the Discovery and tell us about it. The warranty period seals the deal. I underwent major stress just waiting for my guns in the mail. In the house would have been impossible.

    All, I wonder if Halloween is an overlooked opportunity to emphasize the importance of gun rights. I was watching a horror movie in a restaurant this afternoon that had the entire place transfixed. Nubile teenagers at a beach side getaway were being hunted in the middle of a thunderstorm by a madman wearing a slicker and wielding a metal hook. The group takes shelter in a deserted old mansion but gets separated. Suddenly one of the guys takes the female lead and starts dragging her out into the forest right into the arms of the madman. It turns out that he’s the guy’s son! But after making the transfer, he pulls a revolver on the old man; it seems he has second thoughts. The madman scoffs at him and says that only he has the guts to kill people. Suddenly the girl’s boyfriend springs out of nowhere and attacks the man with the gun, but he is quickly punched out. Unified again with his father, the son stands up the boyfriend to recieve a coup de grace from the father’s hook. BUT at the last second, the boyfriend dodges so that the hook goes into the son! Now the old guy is really mad. He turns on the boyfriend with a bellow of rage and readies his hook. BUT he gets drilled from behind by the revolver that the girl picks up. That revolver looked might sweet….

    Matt61


  43. Randy, Mr. B, Matt61 & Wayne,

    I am not known for great self-control, but I think maybe I’ll wait on the Discovery.

    Don’t know if I’ll make, the rifle in the box is tormenting me like a heart beat under the floor.

    Volvo


  44. Volvo,

    Then you have to let your kids hide it from you…They’ll have loads of fun teasing you about it…

    But really, congrats on the sale today!!

    Wayne



  45. Wayne,

    I am addressing this to you because, after waiting 6 months from Pyramid Air for delivery of 2 Drozd Blackbird bb machine guns and finally getiing an opportunity to shoot them, of all people the experience actually made me think of you – or more precisely, your endeavor and you.

    It occurred to me how important it is that the air rifle novice have an enjoyable experience their first time out at your range, and the b.b. machine gun that I just shot from Drozd absolutely guarantees such an experience, no matter what else happens.

    Last few years I had three of the previous model, which is wonderful fun for individuals, but now the company has addressed the limitatations that the gun had for public uses such as at your range, and I thought about your situtation.

    Unlike the first incarnation, the current Drozd bb machine gun can hold over 200 bbs and has the capability out of the box of using 88 gram CO2, delivering about 200 strong shots. There is much less down time now than with the previous model, which required changing out CO2 every 50 shots and, much more importantly, taking considerable time awkwardly loading 30 bbs into a spring loaded chamber. The new design uses hop-up, and so one simply dumps 200+ bbs into the handle and is ready to go in 5 seconds!

    For public use, I understand that you could connect a large (12 or 20 ounce I think) CO2 tank to this new model as well, and thus get over 1,000 shots on each tank.

    The gun shoots 2″ groups at 10 yard on single mode using 5 grain metal bbs, and 1 1/4″ groups on single mode using 8 grain bbs (called ’round balls’). Speed is over 400 fps at 10 yards.

    However, most people do not target shoot with this. It is primarily used to mow down little reactive targets, made of plastic or whatever you choose. It is absolutely powerful enough, when using lead balls, to very reliably and quickly dispach squirrels and rats with head shots within 10 yards using head shots. The lead ball travels at over 400 fps on impact and penetrates the brain. On repeat mode, it can be used for vermin extermination, and modifiers are available that quiet it very well (Pyramid Air unkowingly sells one for another air gun which actually fits this model and can easily be modified to work really effectively).

    Because the older model used 1 CO2 cartridge, shooting machine gun style tended to affect the speed (decreasing) and accuracy of the 10thth shot onward, as the cartridge cooled. Now, with the larger CO2 (or one can use 3 li’l CO2s) being used, this does not happen, and so I will report accuracy results in the future on full auto mode when I have an opportunity.

    Anyway, perfect fun gun for your range. A “Can’t Miss” air gun, which can even be easily scoped now.

    P.S. Every time my nephews and other friends/relatives under age 35 come over to socialize over the past few years, for those that were interested in shooting air guns, the bb machine guns were always the guns that ended up being used and later asked for.

    For my friends and relative over 40, my accurate air rifles were the guns of choice.

    - Dr. G.



  46. Good morning B.B. I was searching for a comparison of regulated vs. unregulated PCP’s and couldn’t find that topic in your blogs, but that just might be my inability to fully use the advanced search function. Please point me in the right direction. If it’s not there, would you please consider addressing it sometime? Volvo: Congrads on the sale. Kevin: thanks, but I’m going to wate until the next model comes out. Have a wonderful weekend one and all. Mr B.


  47. B.B.,
    Is there any single pump air rifle that comes close to the TX200 spring air rifle in both accuracy to 25 yards and in trigger quality?

    - Dr. G.


  48. Dr. G.

    Thanks for thinking of the range….
    That sounds like a good one for sure… We are planning a sand pile at 10, 20 & 30 yards to put plastic army men and the likes on, for just such a gun..
    The IZH61 would have fun there also. And I picked up a copy of a AK47 single shot pellet rifle. It has an large X with a picture of mountains around it and "Made in China" under it. It shoots 500fps, and is all steel, very nice. It has a side lever and the loading port looks like a TX200… Does anyone know anything about them?

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  49. Dr. G.,

    The Parker-Hale Dragon is the equal of the TX200 in 25-yard accuracy and the trigger is better. But the Dragon is extremely quirky and not a practical gun at all.

    No other single-stroke gun can compare to the TX200.

    I assume you meant a single-stroke and not a breakbarrel that some people call a single pump?

    B.B.



  50. Brett,

    An R1 at that price is a steal – whether it needs a rebuild or not. Barrel swaps are not difficult, but most people want the .22 like you. So expect another barrel to cost over $100.

    B.B.


  51. Air Arms .22 cal. S310 50 yard report,

    It was windy and about to rain, but I settled into my sitting FT position… I only shot 3 of the 10 shot mags at the 2″ shoot and see targets. I used only a 180 bar fill and didn’t notice the valve lock issue in the 30 shots….

    This gun is every bit as accurate as my .22 cal Condor or AAS410 .177. Even in the wind 1″ – 5 shot groups were easy.

    Back inside at 20 yards, last night, I put her in the bench rest, and filled to 200 bar…. The valve lock really showed there, with 1/8″ – 1/4″ low for the first 20 shots or so. Then right on, with 1/4″ 5 shot groups, for the next 35 shots…. Then it started dropping again, with the 80th shot about 1/4″ low and the 90th shot at 1/2″ low. But keep in mind, with the 200 bar fill, the valve lock starts it at 760fps with the 16 gr JSB, and when the valve lock opens up at 175 bar, the fps go to 937. Then drop back to 760fps at about shot 95 or 100..

    That is the same pattern as the Discovery has, with it’s valve lock issue, but the total number of shots is more than double and the number of shots with no loss of POI is double also at 40 instead of 20.

    One could, and I do adjust for the valve lock when hunting or target shooting, rather than a lower fill level and refilling more often.

    I still wonder what it is about my Air Arms S410 .177 that doesn’t have the valve lock issue at all..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  52. B.B.,

    In looking for a PSN to compare with the TX200 springer for accuracy and trigger quality, you did not mention the FWB 503 Match single stroke pneumatic sold by PA. Did you not mention it because it loses accuracy at 25 yards (muzzle velocity 570 fps not enough for 25 yard target shooting?)?

    I would guess that at 10 yards the accuracy and trigger of the FWB, being so expensive, would both be superior to the TX200.

    Thank you for your help, as always.

    P.S. For what it is worth, I noticed that the word verification log-in rigamorole is clearer and hence easier than it used to be. Was something changed?

    - Dr. G.


  53. Dr.G.,

    The Feinwerkbau model 603 single-stroke pneumatic rifle is too slow for consistent accuracy at 25 yards. In still air it will equal the TX200 and beat the trigger by a mile. But is there is the slightest wind, you can forget it.

    If you really want a target rifle, don’t overlook the Walther, Steyr and even the old Gamo single strokes.

    Blogger is constantly updated and changed by Google. They update it several times a month. Possibly they have revised the sign-in proces and wrecked the search function at the same time.

    B.B.


  54. BB,

    Dr. G. points out an unexploited market segment — the SSP with more grit than the 10M rifles, 8gr. at 800fps would be nice. I would be near the head of the line to buy one, although I'm sure there must be some technical issues preventing them. I keep thinking that with some clever mechanism, such a thing could be done with a <30 lb. pump effort, but I'm just guessing:).


  55. BG- farmer,

    As you stated, I think the SSP are challenged in the power area. My one and only is the Daisy 747. Given the anemic power to weight ratio I would guess your rifle would need to go around 25 lbs.

    Makes the 2.7 pumps per shot in a PCP not seem so inconvenient?

    Did you see Mossberg came out with a lever gun in 30-30? Talk about being late to the party.

    Volvo


  56. Herb,

    Thank you very much for the link on the Lewis and Clark air gun….

    What a great read, although very detailed… I’m very interested in their journey and Jefferson’s plan for growing America… If only later Presidents had carried it forward…

    Anyway thanks,

    Wayne



  57. Volvo,

    Actually saw that Mossberg on the rack yesterday…thought maybe it was mislabelled or I had missed something. Late to the party is right…but I didn’t even know Mossberg made rifles until recently. Possibly all those people online who claim to be hunting deer with .338′s and other magnums for a humane harvest are realizing that deer arent really that big or that tough or even that far away in most of the country and running out to buy a levergun in 30/30 (or 45-70:)). Or possibly, there are new bullets with exploding tips which allows a “low-powered” 30/30 to take whitetails…

    Let’s let Wayne buy one, first:)!


  58. Hi folks: A quick question–has anyone figured a way to quiet a Discovery, either home made or a location where I can purchase one. Thanks much. Volvo 2.7 pumps a shot doesn’t seem like such a bad deal for a PCP–were you counting stokes and do you have something to tell us about waiting for Christmas??? Mr B.



  59. mr.b. There are sielencers for this model especially now all over the net. Take a few minutes of your own time, put a little effort into ggooling it, and youll have your answer.



  60. Anonymous: thanks for your kind helpful comments. I must be missing something in my searching the web cause I haven’t had any luck following your advice. Did fine locating them for my talon SS, but not for the Discovery. To anonymous number two thanks and I’ll give Anthony a call during the day on Monday. Mr B.


  61. CowboyDad & Vince,

    Since the PPK/S is CO2, the accuracy will go out the door if you succumb to temptation and blast away.

    With the PPK we got, we don't have a problem hitting soda cans at 15 ft when shooting slowly.

    .22 multi-shot


  62. Joe B,

    The laser engraving is on the CO2 tube (at least on mine).

    From the options you mention you and your friend are getting the the CO2 carbine (custom 2250), not the CO2 pistol (custom 2240). The custom 2250 with a full 24″ barrel could be modded into a full Discovery carbine (no having to cut the Disovery tube). ‘Course it doesn’t seem like a carbine with a 24″ barrel!

    .22 multi-shot


  63. .22 Multi-Shot,

    Be careful about transforming a 2250 into a PCP. Unless the schedule of seamless hydraulic tubing used for the reservoir is right, the gun is unsafe. The tubes used for CO2 guns are decidedly weak.

    Crosman used tubing for 3,000 psi pressures on the Discovery. Even though they operate at 2,000, they wanted to have the extra margin of safety, in case someone overfilled their gun.

    B.B.


  64. BG_Farmer.,

    I’m guessing that you have read the post about the Parker-Hale Dragon by now, so you know that a single stroke pneumatic of 12 foot-pounds has been built. As I recall, they sold for $1,100 when new in the ’90s and today you can get them for under $800.

    The Daisy single strokes are weak, but they are just one example. An FWB 103 is almost as powerful as a Beeman P1, which is to say closing in on 6 foot-pounds. Not bad for a pistol! Of course it’s a $2,000 psitol.

    The IZH46M is a lot cheaper and nearly as powerful.

    Remember that with a pneumatic, the most important things are barrel length and the quantity of compressed air.

    The Daystate Sportsman multi-pump got about 12 foot-pounds on the first pump , as I recall. I’ll have to look into iut.

    So what you want is available – it’s just a matter of price.

    B.B.


  65. B.B.

    I see an Anonymous asked how much you paid for the Benyamin… very rude, since I’m trying to trade you out of it… I hope you don’t think it was me.. I’m a dangerous trader, but I hope not to ever stoop that low.

    Wayne,


  66. BB,

    I think the Parker-Hale Dragon (which I remember fondly from the blog) is a bit rare for my kind — be a shame for a collector’s item like that to be dragged out to the barn lot regularly — I don’t always wait for the weather to be perfect:). If its true that the Daystate Sportsman can do that in one pump, then we know it can be done for an SSP. I sound like one of the people you alluded to in the Parker-Hale piece, but it really does seem to me that Daisy and Crosman would be much better off developing something like that than peddling yet another imported break-barrel.

    Volvo,

    I got curious, and Mossberg seems to be credible at producing functional rifles, in the USA. The bolt actions look decent. Most people were happy with accuracy (for hunting), although there were those who insisted on 1/2 MOA for Bambi. The lever action looks like a nice design with improved lockup strength and Winchester 94 looks. One writer suggested that Mossberg was simply stepping in to fill the void left be the demise of the 94, which I wasn’t thinking about, so maybe its not crazy after all.

    Wayne,
    Mossberg 464 looks like one worth trying (hint, hint). BTW, I knew you weren’t the one asking for the price. If BB had wanted to say, he would have told us. I have this one neighbor who is otherwise great, but everytime somebody buys something, he has to figure out how much it cost — most annoying. At least he thinks I’m poor, because he doesn’t understand “thrifty”:).


  67. My 2.7 pumps per shot are based on filling my Raider. So no, I have not shot the Discovery yet. I did however feel obligated to at least inspect her.

    Here are my initial impressions:

    The box is gorgeous. Colorful and exciting, it certainly is worthy of two thumbs up.
    I opened it as gently as possible, revealing the contents. The rifle was loosely protected by bubble wrap and the card board box, while the pump was indulged with its own foam nest.

    I lifted the rifle from the box and the bubble wrap feel free to the floor like a new bride’s nightie. (Bg-farmer, that analogy is for you ;) )

    The ritual act of a running a hand along the stock was greeted with what I can only compare to a Popsicle stick type feeling. This caused me to run finger nails gently against the grain and they snagged the whole way down the stock. The next step is the old white T-shirt, which showed large rust stains from the barrel. The lack of effort was apparent on the metal also. The trigger is plastic. The bolt is small, but thankfully metal.

    Now those of you who are thinking I am expecting too much for the price point, the rifle sans pump runs $239.00 at PA. Yes, my package deal out the door with delivery direct from Crosman was much less at just under $288.

    But I am using that standard retail cost as a reference point. A number of entry level firearms or shotguns at or below that cost are available, no they usually are not Walnut, but the hardwood of choice will have a better finish & so will the metal.

    You will not feel good about handing the Discovery to a firearms shooter. My Webley would not have to feel embarrassed next to a 700 ADL; however the Disco would pale next to even an old Marlin Glenfield .22. (Recently sold one that was bought at JCPenney’s originally for $34.75)

    Next, I shouldered the rifle several times. It did feel nice in the hands and my make believe shots at a target seemed like all 10’s. I sat the rifle down and turned my attention to the pump, which in contrast to the rifle appears of very highly quality. It requires some assembly and is restrained in the package, so I will leave it for another day.

    My overall impression so far? It is a nice design that is not done justice due to the lack of basic quality control. If you just see the box at the store, you’ll buy the it. Handle the rifle first, and you would not want to give over $139.00 for it.

    Since I did not share the Christmas gift notion with my wife or kids yet, I have given myself an out. Other than the fact my wife’s name was on the box, just me, the readers here, and Santa know of the original plan. (Only share goals when you are fully committed to them)

    Volvo


  68. bg_farmer,

    This is terrible, I hope the annon will at least tell people it wasn’t me… That was very very rude.. and it was not me!!!…
    I know your teasing me, and that’s cool..

    I think (hope) annon didn’t notice I was trying to trade B.B. for it..

    Anyway B.B., just let it go..
    It’s worth what it’s worth to you, not what you paid for it..

    You guys will be waiting a long time for me to try the Mossberg 464. I’m super happy with the Marlin 336RC and the newer Marlin 336A, although the latter is not as smooth as the 336RC..

    And I don’t need more deer/elk rifles, with the Ruger .270 also. The thing about deer rifles is, it’s costly, noisy, and I have to drive to shoot them.. So they will mostly sit, and get shot very little compared to my air rifles, which I can shoot at night indoors and/or at my own rifle range..

    So someone else will have to try out the Mossberg 464…

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  69. Il Bruce, I have both the Mendoza RM 200 (in 177) and the Hammerli 490 Express (Combo flavor). These are my observations and impressions.

    The 490 Express has a lighter cocking stroke and an automatic safety. It has black-iron sights with an adequate amount of space between the sides of the U-notch and the front post. It is available only in 177.

    The RM 200 has a better trigger out of the box and a safety that can be reapplied without having to recock the rifle. It also has an effective anti-beartrap safety, in that the safety cannot be taken off until the barrel is latched back into position. It fires 177 Crosman wadcutter pellets noticeably faster, punching out clean holes instead of leaving the chaff attached to the back of the target by a long partial-thickness layer of the target paper. It has fiber optic sights and the front post completely fills the rear sight. It is available in both 177 and 22.

    I am glad I have both, but if I had to give one of them up I would bid the 490 Express adieu in the blink of an eye (as long as I got to keep the scope).

    –WFH


  70. Anonymous,

    I prefer to limit my correspondence to the blog. You are welcome to post your e-mail and share the topic you wish to discuss. If I have a similar interest I could respond along with any of the other readers.

    Bg- farmer,

    I guess the Mossberg is not such a bad idea. I know the model Win 70 is back, but not sure who makes it? Seems likely the 94 will make a come back soon.

    Volvo


  71. Wayne,

    Of course I knew it wasn’t you, just trying to reassure you since you seemed worried, but I guess it didn’t come out the way I intended. I was kidding about the 464, though:); air guns rule in the grab and go department. I think you have the game in most of NA covered already.

    Volvo,

    Thanks for spicing up the Discovery review! My old 1982 (?) Marlin Glenfield 60 with the squirrels pressed on has blueing that puts most stuff nowadays to shame and a nicely finished and figured crate-wood stock, although I think they should have spent a little more and used Rustoleum on the receiver:). I liked the beech(?) stock on BB’s prototype Discovery better than the production ones that I’ve seen.

    I’m not sure what Winchester’s status is. Hopefully the Model 12 will come back…at least people can quit lamenting it.


  72. Wayne: Did I do ok with the anonymous question and did you get my address so you can send me the 4tins of Predator pellets in .22?


  73. BG farmer,

    I never owned a 60. My first semi-auto was the Ruger 10/22.

    My old man insisted on single shots for me. A Savage Stevens .22 and Winchester 20 gauge were my first “real” guns until I could save enough for replacements. I don’t recall model numbers; but I would know them if I saw them.

    Can’t say that it was that bad of an idea, as I take the first shot still as if it is my only shot. I suspect I was about 9 or 10 when I could no longer be pacified by a BB gun.

    The Glenfield I spoke of was a bolt action with a detachable magazine that belonged to my sister. Never was 100% on what the critter was they pressed in the pistol grip. Squirrel makes sense, even if it looked more like a cross between a beaver and ground hog.

    Volvo


  74. Annon,

    Oh, you did fine… No I didn’t get your address, give it to me, so I can send you the pellets and have my friend Louiegie come and break your legs for you..

    Wayne



  75. Volvo: isn’t it a shame the way Wayne turned on you. I thought you guys were good friends. How could he acuse you of being “that” anonymous. Does Louiegie’s grandmother make fried home made pizza dough and sprinkle it with sugar while its grease is still hot? Ask him to bring some with him.


  76. Thanks for all the opinions and input. I was given a Marksman 1790 last night. Cosmetically it is a mess but seem to shoot nicely. There is a squeak when cocking though.

    This may keep me busy for a while. I may also get the Hamerli over the winter too.




  77. il Bruce,

    Thanks for the spelling help. Enjoy the new rifles, it will be a long Winter.

    “Un nemico è troppo e cento amici non bastano.”

    Volvo


  78. Volvo,

    Ok, I thought it was you on the last one, not the first one.. The bad spelling was intended to show it was a joke..

    Anyway Annon, good job…. you got my goat..

    And I’m half Italian too.. Ivonne is my grandfathers name..

    Wayne


  79. BB,

    Thanks for the warning about converting a 2250 to PCP. I actually have no plans for converting a 2250, just a 2300KT (Crosman custom pistol). I am using the Discovery tube for exactly the reason you mention. I wouldn’t trust the CO2 tube for a number of reasons.

    Also thanks for the info on the “paintball” compressors. If the air car project works out, I will be looking for one.

    Thanks,
    .22 multi-shot


  80. Wayne: it’s time to put the second “annon” to rest never to rear his warp twisted self again…unless. Night one and all Mr B.


  81. Mr b.

    Amen!

    Sorry I got so caught up in it….

    Volvo,
    I’m sorry, that last one right before your signed comment, made me think that last one was you.. I got that one as a joke, and it sounded like you.

    Anyway as “Fish” says “By-Gones”

    Wayne


  82. BB,

    I would guess this riffle is not made in the USA. My reasoning: file work (not so common in American manufacture).

    You could see where the wood came from without much trouble. take care.

    -Henry/sumo



  83. The Hammerli likes oil, ‘Bruce. I put a drop down the transfer port of mine then decocked it and let it set for sn hour, and it started punching out the chaff instead of half tearing them from the paper. Groups tightened up markedly too.

    –WFH


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