The 2009 SHOT Show report

by B.B. Pelletier

The Airgun Breakfast kicked off the show with a real bang! First, Josh Ungier of Pyramyd Air presented Shotgun News editor Bob Hunnicutt with a plaque that honored him for his editorial support of the airgun community. Next, the NRA presented their Youth Shooting programs and introduced the ambassadors from each of those programs. The airgun community was amazed by the numbers of young shooters in this country. Then, Paul Capello aired the trailer video about American Airgunner and the room went wild! To a person, the attendees, who are the movers and shakers in the worldwide airgun community, proclaimed that television was a dream come true. Wherever we went, we heard the same remarks throughout the entire first day of the SHOT Show.


Joshua Ungier (r) presents a plaque to Bob Hunnicutt, editor of Shotgun News.

The first news came from the Gamo booth, where we saw a new breakbarrel called the SOCOM Extreme. The Whisper is being revised to be even quieter than before.


Gamo SOCOM Extreme.

The Hunter Extreme will now be available in .22 and .25. So you hunters have a choice of breakbarrels once more.


Gamo has added .22 and .25 calibers to their Hunter Extreme lineup.

But the biggest news in the Gamo booth was the new BSA R10 PCP that was on display. The “R” stands for regulated, and the rifle is a completely revised S10 that is a much sleeker version of the rifle. It now features a full shroud and a quick-fill port that allows the air tank to remain on the gun. I’ll get one of these as soon as they become available. I smell a fight with the S410 in the offing.


This new BSA PCP is going to give some European guns a run for their money!

Scott Pilkington has a new M16 upper PCP target unit for the new Service Air Rifle class in the CMP. I hope to get one for testing when he gets into production. Imagine an upper that fits your AR-15 and is a target pellet rifle unit. I guess I have to get me a black rifle now!


Scott Pilkington holds a nifty new invention that’ll turn your AR-15 into a pellet shooter.

At Crosman, I saw the real Marauder, which is somewhat different than the one shown on the internet. And the new 10-meter target rifle is completely changed from what you’ve seen. The adjustable triggers on both rifles are the same and are adjustable down to a gnat’s eyelash, which is to say very light and crisp.


Heather Parcells, co-host of American Airgunner, holds the new Crosman Marauder.


Heather and the new 10-meter target rifle from Crosman.

At Beeman, I saw the HW30S, which isn’t a new rifle by any means, but it is a rifle Beeman is now importing. The new 30S has fiberoptic sights front and rear and the Rekord trigger. The stock has the long forearm that extends past the barrel pivot bolt.


The HW30S is now being imported by Beeman.

Beeman also had a very intriguing second target rifle–the FWB 500, which looks like a budget-priced target rifle. It just arrived, and they had no information on it. It’ll take some time before a price will be available. Heather Parcells, the co-host of American Airgunner, found the rifle lightweight and adjustable enough for her tastes. I think a lot of plinkers will want one if the price is good.


FWB 500–a perfect fit!

At Daisy, I saw a new powerful underlever spring rifle called the 1025. It features a unique barrel-loading mechanism. There was also a full-dress CO2 pistol called the Powerline 5502 that includes a dot sight, tactical flashlight and a laser on a very sexy-looking pistol.


Daisy’s new underlever spring gun.

Speaking of lasers, Leapers has brought out a green laser that will be bright enough for use in the day. The retail will probably be under $100, which represents a two-thirds price drop over similar equipment. They also have several very sharp new scopes with all the bells and whistles. I’ll do some reports on them when I get them.

The final products at Leapers were several new tactical flashlights that I hope will be stocked by Pyramyd Air. I’ve used my lights for several years and find them invaluable for a multitude of jobs–not to mention self-defense.

I did lots of other work yesterday, but those are the new guns for now. Bear in mind this was only the first day of the SHOT Show and already my feet hurt!

144 Responses to “The 2009 SHOT Show report”

  • Tenuc Says:

    Hi BB,

    Looks like some good new stuff coming through from the manufacturers.

    John Bowkett has done an amazing job designing the new BSA R10 and it is a real airgunners dream gun.

    The .22 gives 180 consistent shots at 12fpe, which should equate to 50 shots at 35fpe for the export version. The shroud makes it super quiet and the built in quick-fill/gauge, along with the new all metal 10 shot magazine make this gun what the S10 should always have been!

    Gets my vote for the best gun of the year so far, and I’ll be interested to see what you think of it once you get your hands on one.

    ATB,

    Tenuc

  • Mr B. Says:

    Good morning B.B. The American Airgunner! Yes, and thank you all. I just hope it’ll be carried here.

    Your feet are already hurting. Sounds like, “Don’t throw me into that brier patch”.

    Leaving for Atlantic Guns shortly to put a deposit on a black rifle. Will PA be selling the pellet gun upper? Mr B.

  • Il Bruce Says:

    I bet Ms. Parcells was a bigger hit than the run of the mill booth bunnies at most trade shows.

    I look forward to the info on the Daisy and of course the Marauder.

    Great job on the TV show, I just don’t get all the folks worring about the antis. We can only benefit from being out in the light. Keeping in the shadows makes it seem like we belong there. Good luck and when do I bet my 8×10 signed photo of the cast?

  • Anonymous Says:

    bb said: “But the biggest news in the Gamo booth was the new BSA R10 PCP that was on display. The R stands for regulated, and the rifle is a completely revised S10 that is a much sleeker version of the rifle. It now features a full shroud and a quick-fill port that allows the air tank to remain on the gun. I’ll get one of these as soon as they become available. I smell a fight with the S410 in the offing”

    Does this mean that PyramydAir is considering offering the BSA line of rifles from Gamo?

    Thanks

  • Lloyd Says:

    B.B.,
    You can tell the popularity of a sport by the number and variety of new offerings from the manufacturers. It looks like airgunning is pretty darn popular!

    Thanks for keeping us informed, and have FUN!
    Lloyd

  • Anonymous Says:

    But I wasn’t done lusting after the other airguns I don’t own yet… I feel like the cheesecake is being served in the middle of my prime rib! WOW,there’s alot of new stuff[not fluff]to consider.were all gonna need alot of help from you BB! FrankB

  • Volvo Says:

    Ditto the question above about BSA and PA. I had BSA on my short list for a PCP as one of their offerings is said to tie or exceed the FX Whispers low discharge. I axed it due to the heavy weight however. Taking the bottle on and off also seemed to add an extra step. This new rifle looks to be trimmer, not need the bottle removed, and I’m guessing carbine length also which I prefer.

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    Well I have to admit it. Your thrilling update on all the new guns and gear on the horizon confirmed it.

    I’m addicted to airguns. There, I confessed.

    I’m twitching and shaking. Pleassse give me more.

    Very interested in your take on the BSA R10. Waiting on this gun to hit the market was my second choice for an entrance into the pcp world. The “hype” for this revised S10 began back in October in the UK. Lot of speculation with only snippets of details released by BSA and airgun writers. I’ve made my decision but am still anxious for your review.

    Be safe in your travels is my prayer.

    kevin

  • Joe B. Says:

    Hi B.B.,

    Thank you for being our eyes and ears at the SHOT show. I enjoyed the photos.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Volvo & Anonymous,

    I called B.B. to ask if Pyramyd Air will be stocking BSA guns, but he was in a meeting. Of course, he may not even know the answer, so you might have to wait til we can get the story straight from Pyramyd Air.

    Edith (Mrs. B.B.)

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Leapers new green daylight laser

    Can’t resist throwing in some science.

    Why green?

    The human eye has different sensitivity to different colors of light. Green is the color to which our color vision is most sensitivity.

    See for example:
    http://www.amastro2.org/at/ot/othcs.html

    Herb

  • Volvo Says:

    Kevin,

    Do you have an ETA on the S410 yet? I am anxious for your review. I think my only purchase in 2009 will be a multi-shot .22 cal PCP. I’m not in any rush but enjoy compiling feedback and data.

    On a side note, does anyone ever have any success with pointed pellets? Part of my house cleaning last year included wading through a huge accumulation of pellets. I swore not to order any more until I used up most of my surplus. In .22 I still have a copious amount, however in .177 I am at the bottom of the barrel. Last night I lifted up the foam in Crosman box to get the few that try and escape. When they were gone I found a tin of Gamo pointed that I picked up at a local retailer as part of a sample pack years ago. I had little hope for them, and in the QB-78 they matched my expectation with 2 1/2 inch groups at 36 feet. Every pointed pellet I have ever used, even the upscale brands give average or less results.

    I grabbed my JSB exacts just to make sure the scope was not broken and ten shoots gave a dime size group. On the positive side the gamo hunters that were part of that pack made just a slightly larger group indoors. I’m sure that would open up at longer distance but they are not a bad close range pellet.

    An e-mail from PA today says my new .177’s are on the way, just in the nick of time.

  • kevin Says:

    Volvo,

    Good to hear from you.

    ETA on AA S410….Monday….January 5th. Forgot to ask which year. There isn't a new AA S410 ten shot, right handed, walnut stock gun in the entire USA. I know because I've checked. Might be in the USA but its' not in a dealers hands yet. The wait continues.

    Your experience with pointed pellets is the same as mine. Even at short distances. Amazing how many of my springers like the jsb's & crossman premiers. I must have over 20 diferent pellets in .177 and over 10 in .22 but inevitably go back to jsb's or cpl's. My fwb 124 that paul watts tuned loves beemans fts's but shoots both jsb's (4.51 & 4.52) equally well.

    I stocked up on jsb's since I heard they're going to get tougher to find as the year goes on.

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    B.B.

    I too, thank you for being our eyes and ears.. and the best of luck in the new TV. venture!!

    That’s funny, I smell it too!! …all the way out here in Southern Oregon.. amazing!!

    S410happy will be ready… you name the time and place.. or… who knows, a new BSA R10 might just show up here and ask to dance with my Air Arms S410..

    Wacky Wayne

  • FRED Says:

    None of my RWS’s or the Benj Discovery do well with pointed pellets or wad cutters, for that matter.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    Outstanding. I want to hear more about all of these products.

    Herb, that’s interesting. I had heard that yellow is the most visible color, but this is anecdotal. Yellow is next to green on the spectrum so perhaps the difference is not much.

    Matt61

  • Anonymous Says:

    Matt,

    RE: Color sensitivity

    Our eye is most sensitive to green light. This is a per photon (“particle” of light) response. So if there was the same flux (number of photons per second) of blue, green, and red light, then out eyes would see green at the lowest flux level.

    Now for what color is most visible in a particular environment – it depends. A white golf ball is a lot easier to find in green grass than a green one. (I was thinking of selling green camouflage golf balls. You get 18 holes of exercise in 9 due to all the walking looking for the ball!)

    Herb

    PS – Let me add my congratulations for BB’s post on the shot show. He has left me salivating and wishing I was there.

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    I’m glad to say we have enough computers set up now for me to keep mine now.. so you all have to put up with me again..

    My experience with pointed pellets is the same as yours..and add the RWS superdome to the group.. anyone what 6 tins of .22 cal RWS superpoints and 3 tins of superdome at half price? .. they are ok at short range..

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Pointed pellets

    I seem to remember BB speculating in the past that if the point wasn’t in the exact (microscopic) center of the pellet, then as the pellet spins is sets up aerodynamic forces that drive the pellet off course. A domed shaped pellet would be more forgiving. This could be just folklore, but it makes sense to me.

    See for example:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/pellet-types.html

    Herb

  • volvo Says:

    Wayne,

    Glad to hear your getting caught up. Too much business has to be the world’s best problem. I’m guessing you’ll be testing the new Crosman and BSA long before me. If ever a rifle betters the S410 in your opinion I’ll order it the same day.

  • CJr Says:

    B.B.,
    Thanks for interrupting your daily walks to keep us updated. This year I plan to enter the world of PCP. My primary goal will be 10m target, accuracy, multi-shot, under $1,000. I think things will come my way, eh? Can’t wait to see the new show.

    -Chuck

  • Volvo Says:

    Herb,

    That makes sense.

    Another pellet issue I have run into is the .25 calibers. I will assume the Gamo will have a BSA .25 cal barrel. If so very few of the .25 caliber pellets will fit it, most of the Germany brands will be too large.

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    Can I have the superdomes in .22 without taking the superpoints?

    If yes, send me an email. you’ve already got my credit card #.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Whoa BB,
    They ought to include a lower with that AR15! The socom “Extreme” has the same power plant as the hunter extreme right? Do some more gun tests, not that I don’t like articles about sights and pumps I will never buy.
    Shadow express dude

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    That Challenger is what I’ve been needing to put me over the edge on PCP ownership. It seems like Crosman reads this blog: several readers, including me, have asked for that exact feature list.

    Volvo,
    If you’re jonesing for pellets for the QB78, I’ve had great luck with Crosman Copperhead Wadcutters in my QB36-2, considering the price. Their pointeds aren’t bad either at longer ranges, again given the price. PA has them, but for a quick fix Walmart also carries them cheap, 500 in a blister pack. Consistency isn’t up to RWS standards, but they aren’t bad, either. YMMV:).

    Kevin/Wayne,
    The Superpoints appear to have a wadcutter like BC, which may explain their performance. As I told Volvo, the Crosman Pointed Field pellets work well in some rifles — the BC is almost three times a wadcutter and the point is rounded (almost wonder if they’re not Premier rejects).

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Pellet problems

    My Daisy 22SG does vary in how well it likes certain pellets based on how many pumps, i.e. how fast pellet flies.

    The Gamo hunters for example are a domed pellet, but the center of the dome has a rough protrusion. The photo at the PS site doesn't show problem well.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/zoomed_model.pl?model_id=157&type=P

    Thought about smoothing some a number of times, but I've been too lazy. For my 22 SG the JSB Exact Express are the gold standard, but the RWS Superdome are almost as good for half the price.

    I could get the Gamo Hunters locally, so it is too bad that they don't shoot nearly as good.

    Herb

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    I almost missed the Daisy underlever, another good development. I’ve got too much time invested in my QB36-2 to change, but I would have bought a Daisy instead.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Do you know if the Challenger has a shrouded barrel? Perhaps that is not such an issue if you can reduce the power. And what about the price? Glad to hear you’ll be taking the plunge into PCPs and Chuck too. I’ll be watching.

    Herb, thanks for the info. Green, as I normally think of it, is such a subdued color that it would seem to blend rather than contrast with other things in spite of its photon sensitivity.

    Matt61

  • BG_Farmger Says:

    Matt,

    Good point. I don’t believe it is shrouded from the picture. However, at match velocity, it should be pretty quiet, and my guess is that it wouldn’t really get loud until the power went up to past 12fpe. I hope BB tests one soon. Remember, my “soon” is another man’s eternity, according to my wife:).

  • Anonymous Says:

    See the SHOT Show online. The NRA televises from the show for 3 hours from 12-3 pm Eastern. Go to nra.org and click to start the video (left corner). There's a link just below the screen to watch that day's feed if you missed the live show. For today's show (Friday), pull the progress bar to about 2/3 done, & you'll see a man an woman being interviewed. The man is Ken D'Arcy, president of Crosman.

    Edith (Mrs. B.B.)

  • DB Says:

    Reall dig the look of the Marauder – almost didn’t even notice Mrs. Parcells (she has a wedding band).

    It looks like a dandy hunter and a major leap from my Disco. Which by the way is finally starting to work out. Found the problem with it.

    Will share it with you after more testing is completed. Right now it is just too cold to go out and shoot and indoors is just too small for testing a long range gun.

    DB

  • Anonymous Says:

    That’s a good observation about Heather’s wedding band. I also noticed that she is keeping her trigger finger out of the guard very nicely. She doesn’t list shooting as an activity on her site, but it looks like she’s had some practice.

    Matt61

  • CJr Says:

    B.B,
    Remember this?
    January 01, 2009 07:20am…
    “Chuck,…..Next week I will start a special report on bolt-action pellet guns for you.
    B.B.”

    I’ll bet you don’t have time to finish that now. Don’t worry…be happy. Anything along that line at this year’s show?

    No hurry. You’re busy. I’ll remind you again in a couple weeks.

    -Chuck

  • Gordon McKinney Says:

    I know this is OT but does the Limbsaver Barrel De-Resonator work on air guns? I’ve read several reviews for firearm owners who swear by it.

    http://www.limbsaver.com/2009/products/firearms/barrel_deres/index.php

  • volvo Says:

    Bg-farmer,

    Thanks for the tip. I am always looking for the $5.00 pellets that will shoot like the $12.00’s

    Do you think Daisy makes the underlever, or just stamps their name on it?

  • Anonymous Says:

    Re: Transfer port on 0.177 and 0.22 Benjamin Discovery

    Anybody know the diameter of the transfer port on the Benjamin Discovery? I’ve been looking for the numbers and I can’t find them. :-(

    I’m doing some calculations on how fast can an airgun shoot. Think I have the !#$% theory figured out, but I’m trying to plug in some data to test the theory.

    Herb

  • JC Says:

    Wayne,

    I’ll take the RWS Superpoints in .22 that Kevin doesn’t want; how do I contact you?

    JC

    PS – That is PA half price, right?

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Volvo (and anyone else that this post provokes:)),

    I’m wondering about the Daisy myself…would be great if made in USA, but I’m betting Turkey or China. From what I’ve heard and what little I’ve experienced, China may be better in terms of parts availability and potential. Woodwork looks Turkish, though, which is generally more appealing than Chinese (that reddish tint).

    I don’t know how you feel about it, but I love underlevers, even though I feel sidelevers may be the best technically. It’s nice to have one with an American name on it.

    By the way, last night I saw your question about shooting outdoors, ironically after de-icing stock and myself (which left me unable to type coherently:)). For me, anything down to about 20dF is shooting weather, but below that its just not fun to stand still. Temperatures here are usually much higher than 20, but the wind often spoils a good day.

    Don’t be angry if the Copperhead’s don’t shoot well for you, but I easily got several groups under .2″ at 10M sitting with open sights — at velocities well above match standard. Worth a try. They do take a few break-in shots before and after if you’re mixing with something like RWS or JSB — they’re much harder than the “european pellets”. They don’t work well at all in my Hammerli 490, but are the best of the cheap ones in my wife’s QB88.

  • Vince Says:

    I’m really gonna go out on a limb (NOT!) and say the Daisy 1025 is a Hatsan 100X Torpedo

    http://www.hatsan.com.tr/new_airguns_mod_100_x_torpedo.asp

    Offhand, it looks like it’s got some sort of a bolt-action loading port – doesn’t the Hammerli Nova (by Norica) have something similar?

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    Herb,

    Just measured the port on a Discovery valve. It measured 0.156″ with my digital calipers. However I don’t have the ID measurement of the metal sleeve that goes between the valve and breech.

    .22 multi-shot

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    That Daisy underlever could be interesting depending on its price and quality.

    .22 multi-shot

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Limbsaver Barrel De-Resonator

    Gordon,

    It ought to work depending on barrel. You have to be able to get gismo on the barrel without wrecking the gun.

    BB did a blog on a harmonic-tuning muzzlebrake a short while back. See:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/10/harmonic-tuning-muzzlebrake.html

    Same notion just a different product.

    Al in all though, I think BB may have understated how difficult it is to adjust the barrel harmonics with such a device. I think you’d need a good statistical analysis of the data to really know what you are doing. Tuning the barrel in such a way is also not going to magically make up for bad technique. I think you’d have to be a very good shooter to begin with to notice what I would assume to be a fairly subtle effect.

    It would also take a lot of shooting. The finer the adjustment the more shots per group.

    The whole notion would seem to benefit springers the most. I had also wondered about adjusting angle of butt plate. The idea was to customize springer so that recoil was directly into shoulder.

    I have a 4oz golf weight that I added to my Crosman G1. Didn’t see any real difference though it did make the gun really heavy on barrel side. Golf weight wasn’t real tight on barrel either, which may have been the problem. But I figured more weight on barrel the more the inertia for the gun to move when shooting.

    All in all I decided that my overall technique with my two springers wasn’t good enough to be able to make use of such a device.

    Herb

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: New Daisy underlever

    The other thing that seems great is bolt action loading. Bear trap or not, sticking my fingers into breach makes me nervous. Read about one guy on web who evidently got his fingers caught in mechanism. Don’t know if that was just urban folk lore or not. But it did make me think twice about whole idea of an underlever.

    Herb

  • Roger Seher Says:

    Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

    Next time you visit the Crosman booth, could you please ask them what the Air Cylinder Size is going to be on the Marauder?

    I know the Marauder will be very popular, so I started a info site & forum at http://www.MarauderAirRifle.com to start sharing information.

    I also noticed that some sites are taking pre-orders for the Marauder, when can we start pre-ordering on the Pyramidair.com site?

    Thanks

    Roger

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Pre-orders for the Marauder

    Obviously a question for PA not Tom. I’m also sure that PA will be able to take orders faster than they will get the guns initially.

    Frankly, I don’t think it does PA any good to take orders too early. If I were them I put up an expected date for getting guns. I start taking orders about two weeks prior. If orders are 6 months off and Crosman slips, why should PA sign up customers early and take the the heat for delivery date slippage?

    Herb

  • volvo Says:

    Vince,

    Thanks for the link. The stock shape didn’t look like any thing that would have been penned in the States. I figured someone would have researched it.

    46 inches long seems a little crazy, but under levers are probably the best high power set up for a spring rifle.

  • volvo Says:

    Herb,

    I have seen photos of fingers chopped by Springer’s, as you know it doesn’t need to be just a sliding breech. The newer HW 97’s do have some sort of anti-bear trap mechanism. I think AA has it also. One photo was of a guy that got it from a BSA lightning. I was always doubly careful with my lightning. I “test” a new Springer by pulling the trigger while very FIRMLY holding the barrel in the fully cocked position. If she lets go I know it’s a biter.

  • wayne Says:

    Vince,

    I think you called it.. It looks a lot like my Hammerli Nova that ended up as part of the Marlin 336 30/30 trade at the pawn shop.. The accuracy was just not there with any pellet.. but boy it was finished almost as good as the HW-77.. but it DIDN'T shoot like it.. not even close to close..
    great gun to trade at the pawn shop though…

    Herb, just hold the cocking handle when you load, and get the HW-77 or 97 if you want the best shooting springer for the money.. at least as far I have seen.. Or B.B.'s favorite and a tie for me if you count accuracy, and the winner hands down for the best looking and feeling stock.. The TX 200. But, Somehow for me I did just a little better groups in the FT position with the HW-77.. but that's just me. I hate all springers over 700fps with an 8.4 JSB.. just those two the least..

    JC.

    wayne.burns@naturalyards.com

    for the pellets, and yes half of the PA price.. plus shipping and handling of $800…:) just kidding $3.00 for shipping..
    that's it folks they're gone…

    From now on my pellet cabinet will have more room for JSB heavy and a little room for CPH in the wind…( I don't like cleaning the barrel every 500 shots) or I'd shoot them more.
    For me in the guns were shooting, they are so close, why fool around with having to clean your barrel..

    Volvo & BG_Farmer,

    If you want the best pellets at a low price.. by a case at a time..

    Remember B.B.s blog on starting a FT club? Am I the only one who did it? Dealer pricing is fun!! And can be a tax write off as well… start a club folks!!! The best way to spread the sport is face to face…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB just curious how can the Whisper be more quiet when it was not quiet to begin with? Nice gun, but the “quiet” marketing was a scam much like the raptor pellet seemed like a scam to market high velocities in their ads.
    Another question please. I love the IZh 61, and bought it from your recommendation. How does the 514 compare in quality? Is this also a “gift to you” gun?
    Thanks
    Dave

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wait, the pictures of Heather show her holding a gun?! I’ll have to re-check.

    And what’s the deal about the wedding band comments… do you guys think you have a chance with her? Ha!

  • Billy Lo Says:

    I think its great about the American Airgunner Show!!!

    Tom when you get a chance please contact me I have a chance for you to check out a really special/historic air rifle if your interested in doing a story on it.

  • DB Says:

    B.B.,
    You requested a reminder about lead recycling. This is your reminder.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Vince,
    That’s the “Daisy” all right. Must be a powerful springer to need a “Rubber butt pad for recoil absorption”…that always cracks me up. I noticed there’s a whole “Torpedo” line of underlevers.

    Wayne,
    How many pellets in a case? I’ve only shot about 6000 over the last year, but a mixture for different things. Usually tin cans don’t require Meisterkugelns:).

  • wayne Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    I think it’s 10 sleeves of 10 in 8.4 JSB and 10 sleeves of 9 in 10.2 heavy… we could split up a case.
    email me..

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    DB,

    Your lead recycling reminder hit me on the last day of SHOT (for me). Could I ask you to prompt me one more time on Wednesday?

    I have about 500 unread comments at this time. I haven’t had the time to look at them this SHOT Show because of the TV show. I’m in meetings every minute of the day..

    Thanks,

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Billy Lo,

    Please remind me to contact you next week. I’m still at SHOT and time is a problem for me.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Chuck,

    Remind me again on Wednesday, please. My days and evening is taken up by SHOT.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Roger,

    Pyramyd Air has the Marauder web page ready to roll just as soon as they get the specs and description from Crosman. That’ll probably go live this coming week. I’ll make sure B.B. makes an announcement in the blog when it’s ready for pre-orders.

    Edith (Mrs. B.B.)

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Golf weights on Crosman G1

    Couldn’t stand know remembering exactly what happened so I shot some last night at 10 meters.

    Without the extra weight I was close to being zeroed in on the target center with a group size of 1.25 inches.

    With 8.4 oz of additional weight on the end of the barrel, the group size went to 1.75 inches but the center of weighted group was 1.5 inches BELOW the center of the first group.

    My deduction is that the extra weight kept the barrel from lifting due to recoil. This has nothing to due with barrel harmonics and is due to the increased inertia. At the end of the barrel, the extra 8 oz is at the end of a long lever.

    I’d also surmise that the difference in group size is probably due to sloppy technique.

    Since with a springer the pellet is evidently accelerated to maximum velocity in something like 8-10 inches, I wonder why so much of the “barrel” on a springer is rifled. It seems like the proper barrel should be less than 10 inches, then a sleeve with an ID of the barrel OD should be put over the barrel. The sleeve would be the lever to cock the gun. Since the ID of the sleeve would be so much bigger, if the barrel lifted the pellet would hopefully not hit the end of the barrel as it clears the sleeve.

    All this was why I wondered if the gun was adjusted properly for me. The G1 has a plastic stock with a rubber but plate that partially inserts inside the stock. I’ve noticed that target rifles have adjustable but plates, like BB’s picture of the new Heather, I mean 10 meter target gun from Crosman. (Sorry about the Freudian slip, I guess I’m not that much into guns after all. I noticed Heather in the picture first.)

    ;-)
    Herb

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Fingers

    Volvo,

    Didn’t think about a breakbarrel being a biter too. I’ve gone to reloading Crosman G1 with butt in my arm pit and my left hand holding the cocked barrel.

    I cam into the world with 11 fingers, and I intend to go out with at least 10!

    Herb

  • Joe B. Says:

    Hi Herb,

    An early good morning to you, from here on Maui.

    If you feel like it, please tell us what it was like to grow up having 11 fingers. What is it like to shoot with them? It sounds fascinating.

  • Vince Says:

    Herb, while breakbarrels can theoretically pinch the tips of your fingers, they don’t pose nearly the threat that the sliding-cylinder guns do for 2 reasons:

    1) When loading a pellet, your fingers are generally not between any two parts of the gun that will slam together if the sear fails. In a sliding-cylinder gun, your fingers are pretty deep into a guillotine!

    2) If the sear fails on a breakbarrel while it is open, the gun itself moves sharply downward – and away from your fingers – as the barrel jerks upward. And if it’s a Daisy Powerline and the gun is suspended just above your left leg, it slams downward into your leg with enough force to genuinely hurt (as I found out).

  • kevin Says:

    Billy Lo posted a comment? THE Billy Lo ten meter shooting machine? The legendary? If it is, I’m very curious to know about this “really special/historic” air gun.

    kevin

  • ajvenom Says:

    I’m alwyas careful with my springer when I load it. Holding the barrel incase it accidently discharges.

    Herb – I have a Daisy 22SG…it does the best with JSB Exact express and for economy the Gamo Magnum Points do well also.

    I can’t remember if I posted my BSA Lightnin’ song here…but I’m glad to see you can fill the new BSA PCP with or without removing the buddy bottles. More options are always sweeter.

  • wayne Says:

    Kevin,

    I believe it is THE BILLY LO, the one that won the Field Target nationals in 2005.. among other things..

    Come and talk with us Billy, I’m loving the USFT you sold me. Tell us some stories.. It’s the weekend and we need more things to talk about!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • kevin Says:

    Gordon McKinney,

    Re: Limbsaver Barrel De-Resonator

    I did some research on this quite awhile back. Asked the question here and on other forums, googled it, etc. etc.

    Never found anyone, that had tried it on an airgun, that noticed any accuracy improvement. In theory, with a lot of tweaking/experimentation during shooting, it should work. The theory is to find the right place on the barrel to minimize barrel harmonics. The evidence in successfuly doing this can be seen in Whiscombe and Browning (firearms with boss sytem. NOT the browning air gun).

    Would take a lot of time and trial for what I assume would be a minor improvement in accuracy that would be cancelled out on the next shot by me because of poor shooting technique. In addition, if I installed the limbsaver barrel de-resonator on my airguns, I would have to shoot with this gob of snot attached.

    These are the reasons I never pursued it after my research. Let us know what your experiences are.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    Good Morning! Thanks for the pellets. I was wondering if you have ordered any of the new jsb .22 heavies (the 18 gr. in black tin)??

    I just got a sleeve of these in my inventory. I haven’t tried them since my new .22 pcp STILL HASN’T ARRIVED. :-( But everyone is raving about the accuracy of these pellets in a powerful pcp, especially the AA S410′s.

    If you haven’t ordered any (doubt it) and would like to try these I could send you a tin. Let me know.

    kevin

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Wayne,
    I’m not ready to commit that much to one pellet yet:), but thanks for the generous offer.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Extra finger taken off as a very small baby. No pictures, just story from my parents. Both of my little fingers are deformed. Right abnormally short.

    RE: Springers and pinching

    Did realize that springer would be less problematic. I shot the G1 last night, but just altered loading style a bit to ensure the barrel doesn’t snap back.

    Herb

  • kevin Says:

    Herb,

    Your story about being born with 11 fingers triggered an old memory of mine.

    Back in 1980-81 I was in Quito, Ecuador as a jumping off point to spend time in the jungle searching for emeralds. We spent almost a week in Quito buying supplies and hiring a guide in preparation for 30 days in the jungle.

    During that time the newspaper ran a story about a baby that had just been born with 11 fingers. The parents and everyone we spoke to in Quito were so happy about this good omen. It was an eye opener for me since my initial, American, reaction was how sad. A deformity. Gave me a new perspective on the cards that the game of life deals us.

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Next time I talk with the case supplier, I will see how much I can break up the mix and still get case pricing…

    Kevin,

    I don't have any PCPs left in .22 cal… all traded for more Field Target rifles.. just the low power springers that Vince has been rebuilding.. so I'm keeping the .22 cal hobby and H&N Diabolo Sport for them.. I have so much room here is Southern Oregon, that I can shoot my .22 cal rim fire rifles when I want to hunt squirrels and rabbits.. and when I don't have the room, the Air Arms s410 .177 on full power with a .16gr Eunjin makes a pretty big hole, even if it's a little less accurate.. it's works fine out to 25 yards..
    Thanks for the offer though.. I found a large missing gap in accurate pellets in that weight group.. I'm sure the JSB .22 cal 18gr will be a big hit..

    It sounds like your ready to have fun.. if your gun ever ships!!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • wayne Says:

    Herb,

    I share your distraction with Heather, just don’t be thinking about her as you cock the rifle, and you’ll keep your fingers intact!!!

    I’m wondering if she can shoot as well as she looks.. that would be a good thing!!
    I guess if she can’t shoot, then a show on how to learn would be perfect.. but who gets to help her learn to hold the rifle.. HHHMMMM.. that could be a raffle, couldn’t it…

    Wacky Wayne

  • DB Says:

    Wayne,
    Lottery? Brings to mind a scene from the movie “Operation Petticoat”.

    All,
    A fat plum fell in my lap today. A buddy asked for some help in selecting a new airgun and he has a $2,000 budget. Not sure he can get what he wants for that price though. Requirements are:
    1. He has nothing now.
    2. Needs to have a WOW factor
    3. Wants it to look military
    4. Match grade accurate
    5. Lots of power – 900fps or better in 22 cal
    6. Semi-auto
    7. CO2 or HPA

    FX Revolution instantly came to mind. Wonder if he would let me shoot it for a week to kind of break it in.

    At any rate spending other people’s money is always fun.

    DB

  • DB Says:

    B.B.,
    Concerning lead recycling. I’ll remind you again next Friday. No doubt you have plenty of material from the shot show to last all next week… and we all want to see it.

    The recycling stuff can wait a bit. BTW… still trying to find a source for a pellet mold. Nothing yet.

    I designed a bullet mold in college as an engineering project. We were supposed to design a part and build it ourselves in the machine shop. But they would let me build it because it was gun related – liberal bias even way back then. Still got an A on the assignment though – the shop instructor was not a liberal.

    DB

  • wayne Says:

    OK, since it’s the weekend, I’ll tell you about our new field target rifles I added to our inventory..

    Just got an Air Arms .177 S400 FAC side lever, power adjuster, single shot, beech stock.. It’s just like my AAs410, except single shot and beech stock.. This one is very quiet and very accurate, just like the 410.. It too, shows no signs of valve lock, even with a 205 bar fill. My chrony has broken sun shades, so I have to wait until it’s cloudy to test FPS now.. Or find a piece of white plastic and fashion it to the top.. But from POI tests it has no valve lock..
    This is going to be a great entry level FT rifle for us.. I damn near beat my best groups with the USFT last night.. lot’s of 5/16″ 5 shot groups at 20 yards, indoors in the FT sitting position..

    The Webley Raider .177….. I got this one used from Rick Peterson, it has a custom Zebra wood FT stock and the factory beech stock. It also has an after market LDC, so it is just as quiet as the S400 and S410.. This guy is very comfortable to hold in the sitting FT position, just lays there solid.. very easy to load, like the s400 and it seems to be just as accurate, so the rifles won’t be the excuse for us.. The Raider has a shorter air tank, and doesn’t get as many shots, but they seem to be very consistent.. at least on the POI test..

    The other gem, is the “tricked out” FW P70 we got from Anthony Storey. She has a shinny barrel and air tank, very adjustable lam stock, and regulator.. this one is top of the line for 20 ft lbs.. just amazing accuracy even out to 50 yards, and the regulator keeps 60-70 shots very consistent.. We are having a contest today at the range.. so we have to arm wrestle to see who shoots which rifle:):)

    Tim is 60 days out at least, on a new Mac I USFT in 20 ft lbs, and I want to keep the 12 ft lb intact, since it was tuned by LD and Tim for the world championship and given as first prize to Billy Lo when he won the 2005 nationals..

    So our next addition will probably be the Air Arms EV2.. another 12 ft lb gun.. but reports are, that it can compete with the 20 ft lb rifles at 50 yards.. I have to see that to believe it!!

    Wacky Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    What is your opinion of the stock fit on the webley raider vs. AA S410? Bulky? Sleek? Heavy? Light? Finish?

    kevin

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Wayne,
    Thanks. I’m still looking at new pellets as time allows.

    I see you have come to about the same conclusion I have about cutoff point for air rifles vs. rimfires.

    DB,
    That’s quite the list — sounds like a suburban 1x/month range shooter. Maybe you ought to help him prioritize based on what he wants to do with it and where.

  • kevin Says:

    DB,

    The military/black rifles have never interested me. Too much of a traditionalist I guess. So I don’t have any suggestions but wanted you and your friend to know there’s a great deal on a used fx revo here:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/thread/1232149553/F-S++F.X.+++Revo

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    Kevin,

    The Webley Raider is slightly shorter than the Air Arms s400 or s410 about 1″ shorter from trigger to butt… and shorter barrel and air tank too… fits me fine, but I’m only 5′-10″ and 150 lbs.. it feels lighter also.. of course this is with the factory stock, the custom zebra wood stock is larger and heavier, but works very well for FT…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • CJr Says:

    I have made a major breakthrough on pellet selection for me. Thought I'd pass it on for those who haven't tried these yet.

    I recently bought some RWS R-10 Match, .177, 8.2gr pellets in a tin. On my 10 meter range I have shot them in my scoped Daisy 953(5 shots in 1/4" groups), scoped IZH-61(5 shots in 1/4" groups), and open sight Walther Lever Action(8 shots in 1.5" groups).

    I'm a happy pelletier (no relation to the B.B.s). I'm still working on those open sights, though. Brought them down a half inch, at least.

    I have tried the following tins and listed them in order of preference:
    RWS R-10 Match (yahoo),
    Meisterkugeln(very good),
    RWS Hobbys(very good),
    Beeman H&N Match(very good),
    JSB Exact(jury still out),
    Gamo Match(good),
    RWS Supermag(OK),
    Crosman Premier Super Match(not good)
    Daisy Precision Max(not good)
    Beeman Crow Magnum(not good),
    RWS Superpoint(not good), and
    RWS Super-H-Point(not good).

    I'm anxious to see tomorrow if it was just the coffee or a lucky day.
    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Spending friend’s money

    DB,

    First suggestion: Have your friend buy a gun you’d like. When he isn’t happy with it offer to bail him out and buy the “used” gun at half price ;-)

    More seriously, I don’t think you find CO2 pushing a 0.22 at 900fps. 900fps is also an upper velocity limit before up start getting into problems at speed of sound causing flight perturbations with pellet.

    All in all its like buying a computer. What are you going to do with it?

    Does your friend have any shooting experience? $2000 is a lot of money to blow on a toy to play with for a few weeks then discard.

    Match grade accurate? Can he shoot that well? My golf clubs are not as good as Tiger Wood’s clubs. But even if I had such an expensive set, I wouldn’t score like Tiger.

    Is he going to hunt, bench shoot targets, or shoot field target? At what distances? (You can set up a nice indoor range for maybe 10 meters. Most of us don’t have more than that in our house. At 10 meters 900 fps is overkill.)

    Shoot in city or wide open spaces?

    Do you have some guns he can shoot to get some better idea of what he wants?

    For a PCP he’s going to end up dragging around a pump or refill bottles. Not like shoving 22 LR cartridges into a firearm. Does he really want to take that step?

    Herb

  • Joe B. Says:

    Kevin,

    So…did you find any emeralds in Ecuador? Enquiring minds want to know.

  • CJr Says:

    Herb,
    RE: Spending friend’s money
    This is the kind of advice that makes this blog invaluable and it’s free to boot.
    -Chuck

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Chuck,
    Sounds like you’re working hard. With the open sights, are you using a 6 o’clock hold (center bullseye on top of front post)? If so, one thing to work is keeping that picture consistent from shot to shot. You can also play with the amount of “space” between the top of the post and the lowest point on the bullseye; sometimes its easier to have a “crack” of the lighter target color b/t them. Then, follow through as normal, keeping the sight picture aligned until you see or hear the target struck. Sorry if you know all this or it doesn’t work for you.

  • CJr Says:

    BG_Farmer,
    Thanks for the tips. I have been using the 6 o’clock. Your suggestion to change my point-of-aim to something more visible keeping the same point-of-impact just might work for me. However, my natural tendency to aim directly at what I want to hit needs to be overridden.

    My biggest problem with open sights is my inability to get a clear sight picture. I can’t see the front and rear sights and the target clearly, all at the same time. I’ve noticed there are others on this blog with the same affliction.

    I’ve been trying to get a peep sight to see if it helps but they’ve been on back-order since December. I’ve been bumped twice. Hopefully, one of these will solve at least part of the problem.

    Mentally I don’t see how anyone can hit a .5mm X when it’s not even visible to the naked eye. Scopes work but I’m stubborn and want to master open sights or peeps.
    -Chuck

  • kevin Says:

    Joe B.,

    Hope you got your scope issue sorted out.

    Yes we found emeralds. One of the mid sized stones was exceptional and paid for most of our expenses. Didn’t compensate for the misery. The indians know (or knew back then, probably still do) where the tributaries are that regularly yield surface gems. The trick is to arrive right after the rainy season. Each rainy season erodes these tributaries even more and reveal emeralds that were buried previously. “Arriving after the rainy season” is somewhat of a joke because there are only two seasons in their jungles. Wet and wetter. We left quito around the end of april as I remember (the end of their rainy season) and we were rained on every day. Some days all day long. When it wasn’t raining the bugs would carry you away. We quickly ran out of bug spray and had to douse ourselves in kerosene to keep our sanity. Lot of good stories from that trip but the summary is that we would have been better off (financially) if we would have stayed in quito and spent our time buying emeralds wholesale and re-selling them in the USA.

    Not one of my smarter financial moves but I was young and dumb.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Chuck,

    BG_Farmer has given you some good information.

    For what it’s worth, even with perfect eyesight you can’t expect to clearly focus on you sights and targets. Put your emphasis on focusing on your sights. The target will be a little blurry but this is a correct sight picture.

    Try this. If it doesn’t work for you forget I said anything.

    kevin

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Chuck,
    Aim for the exact lowest point of the bullseye:). Kevin’s right about the focus. It will become a big issue, then a non-issue with practice. That would make a good successory poster, huh:)?

  • Dr. G. Says:

    Chuck,

    Interesting pellet results…I’ve tried all of these pellets, but of course in different guns, and have of course different results.

    While I am surprised that your jury is still out on the JSB Exacts and that you hate the RWS h.p. (they are #1 or 2 in both my .22 CO2 850s), I am not surprised that the Crow Mangums are not good. They are awful in all three calibers that I have tried, in every airgun that I tried, from low to high power, from expensive to inexpensive.

    You neglected to mention whether you were standing or sitting when you shot your 1/4″s – if you were standing then I am very impressed.

    I would be interested to know what bench rested groups you achieve with each of the scoped guns using the different pellets.

    I specify bench resting to eliminate shooter error, unless you have one of those spring guns that actually gets better groups when held than when bench rested (although even in that situation, I think it is best to bench rest on the back of the hand if necessary).

    Any information you write is helpful, especially for those readers who have the airguns that you are using.

    - Dr. G.

  • UW Hunter Says:

    DB,
    Why not get a fully loaded Condor? They look pretty military (I think the military actually uses them for special projects), great WOW factor, and he’d still have a little money left over.

  • Joe B. Says:

    Kevin,

    Thanks for the story…I found it highly interesting.

    (Now I know to stay in Quito if I ever go emerald hunting, and avoid the insects and rain….)

  • Joe B. Says:

    UW Hunter,

    What ‘special projects’ does the military use Condors for?

  • Joe B. Says:

    Kevin,

    No, I haven’t touched the 2250 for the past two days. Been house hunting. You know how tough that can be. You know, looking at beautiful houses, then eating at great restaurants afterwards to discuss with my wife the pros and cons of what we’d just seen. (sigh) It’s a rough life over here on Maui.

    Did get in a little paper punching with my .177 Quest 1000 earlier this afternoon. I hadn’t touched it since I sighted in a couple years back. I was a little afraid it would have committed suicide-by-rust, but instead it was flawless. What a beautiful gun for such few buck$.

    Welp…off for more house hunting.

    Cheers.

    (Wow. Blogger just let me PREVIEW and POST this without asking that I type in some arcane password for either action.)

  • Vince Says:

    Gotta ask (surprised nobody else has)…

    I guess, then, you need something a bit stronger than the 2250 to hunt houses – what are you using, and what caliber?

  • kevin Says:

    Joe B.,

    Although the article I sent you was titled, “Parallax Adjustment for non AO Scopes” if you follow the process as described it will correct your focus at near distances. Just turn your objective lens out until it comes into focus at the distance you normally shoot.

    kevin

  • event Says:

    I don’t know if anybody is still interested in hearing about the Beeman RS2/SS1000, but I had posted some information about the piston seal (yes, its synthetic) on the last installment of B.B.’s review and Kevin invited me to spill the beans on the insides of the rifle. Well, here goes…

    I had chrony’d it and found that the velocity was low with CPHP pellets (850′s in .177 and 670′s in .22). I knew from reading reports around the web that it was capable of more and I determined to find out why it was weak. I built a spring compressor and made a tool out of a dowel rod to get around the trigger group and proceeded to tear the guts out of the gun. The finish inside was pretty nice, only needed a little deburring and the seal was in good shape – no cuts or nicks and the edge was nice and smooth and fit in the compression chamber was nice and tight. The only issue I could find was that the whole inside of the receiver was coated with some kind of heavy gray grease. I degreased the whole thing inside and out with goo-gone, took some 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper and polished the spring ends, tophat, and thrust washer on the spring guide. I coated the inside of the receiver, compression chamber, the rear of the piston seal and the area behind the seal, inside of the piston, the tophat, spring ends, and thrust washer, and the cocking slot with TS70 moly paste that I use on my powder burners. I used some Lucas 5th Wheel and Slider Lube on the spring and spring guide (in place of spring tar – since I can get the Lucas stuff locally and I’d have to order the tar) and put it back together. I’m really surprised at how much smoother and quieter the cocking stroke is, and how smooth it fires now. No spring grinding when cocking and twang or vibration when I pull the trigger – just a solid THUNK! My velocity with CPHPs in .177 is up to 940 fps now as well.

    Another thing I did was to add a dash 011 o-ring behind the shoulder of each barrel. The o-ring provides a little extra seal in the chamfered area that guides the narrow end of the barrel into the block and removes the reponsibility for sealing around the barrel from the breech seal (I’m not sure if its needed or not, but I can’t think of any drawbacks).

    Its making good power now and is an excellent shooter. This was my first teardown and I’m pretty pleased with the results. B.B. has a good series of articles on how to tune a springer that really helped out with knowing what lube to put where and how to do it. Thanks B.B.!

    -Event Horizon

  • kevin Says:

    Event Horizon,

    Welcome! Well written report on your first tune.

    Sure doesn’t sound like your first airgun tune. Great job especially getting creative with lubes. Anxious to hear how they stand up over time.

    Your efforts were rewarded. Smoothed out the firing cycle and increased velocity. Well done.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Vince,

    You’re too much. ;-)

    I know Joe B. well enough to know that he can bag any house with his 2250. He’s just that good.

    keivn

  • UW Hunter Says:

    Joe B,

    I don’t know if it’s true, but I read somewhere that the U.S. special forces used the Condors to take out street lights in Iraq before a strike. I haven’t found a confirmed source, but I saw that somewhere. I’ve also heard that animal control officers use then to dispatch angry, uncooperative animals.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,

    I wonder what was the Doc Beeman announcement that says will change airgunning forever. Did it happen at the Shot Show?

    Abe

  • CJr Says:

    Thanks BG_Farmer, Kevin, and Dr G,

    I shoot only .177 so some of those pellets might work different in a .22. I say the jury is still out on the JSBs because I haven’t shot them enough to form an opinion.

    When I shoot I am resting my non-shooting hand, palm up, on a bean bag designed for shooting, with the gun forearm resting in the palm of my hand, while I am sitting in a chair. It hurts to rest it on the back of my hand. Maybe I’m not doing that right. The elbow of my shooting hand is resting on the table. I hold the butt of the stock snug in my shoulder for all guns even the IZH-61.

    For the non-springers I do hold the forearm firm but not tight and the stock pistol grip loose and try to pull the trigger straight back slowly. I did read in the 953 instructions that in competition shooting your not supposed (allowed?) to grip the forearm with the non-shooting hand. The fingers are to be open.

    For the springer I try to do the artillery hold but for some reason holding those snug in my shoulder seems to work best. I shouldn’t argue with the experts here so I’ll get around to doing it right someday. I am getting those 1/4″ groups, though. When I see how well I can shoot from the beanbag I’ll start standing up. I’d like to know the best I can do first before adding in more variables

    I would love to hit 1/4″ groups standing up but I’m lucky to hit 2″ groups that way. I haven’t started working on this yet but I think strength training is a key here. I shoot the lighter rifles (953, IZH-61) better than the heavier Ruger Airhawk. Maybe someday I will impress us both:)

    I don’t like any of my triggers, except the Walther Lever Action, I like it a lot, but I haven’t spent much time adjusting them yet. However, the 953 is not adjustable and I can’t tell exactly when it’s about to release plus it has a lot of travel in it before the release.

    Keep in mind that I’ve been shooting for only a few months so I’m still a green horn needing experience and practice and tips. (what is a green horn, really?)

    It’s good to hear others can’t get a 100% clear sight picture, either. Rules out me thinking something is wrong with me, and may increase my confidence. Thanks to you all for that info.

    -Chuck

  • Joe B. Says:

    Vince, Kevin,

    Well, you roll up a whole lot of 1000-dollar bills, load them into the airgn of your choice and let fly in the direction of the gnarliest realtor.

    Oh and Kevin is right (Thank you, Kevin…you’re muy gracious), I never miss a house. I just have to be standing inside it when I shoot.

    UW Hunter,

    Thanks for the courtesy of a reply. I thought you were gonna tell me they used them for silent assassinations. I know they used silenced Ruger 10-22s for such work in Vietnam.

  • Vince Says:

    I’m trying to nail something down… who here has had both the B21/B22 and the B30 apart? I’m trying to find out if the triggers and the powerplants are identical. I believe they are, but I’d sure like to hear someone’s firsthand observations.

  • Dr. G. Says:

    Chuck,

    I find your results helpful, whether you are green or otherwise. Since you are bench shooting the IZH-61 at 10 meters with a scope, and since you have tried many pellets, I gather that you have wrung all the accuracy that this gun can deliver at that distance?

    That is, I gather that your crosshairs are not visibly moving as you are pulling the trigger, and that 1/4″ 5-shot groups at 10 meters is the best that this gun can be consistently expected to do? Can you shoot 4, 5-shot groups of 1/4″ in a row? Or will one of the pellets in your 2nd or 3rd (or 4th) group fly further than 1/4″ c-t-c?

    How would you describe the Walther Lever Action trigger? I look forward to your scoping it and bench shooting it, as I have been eyeing that rifle for over a year (not yours, actually, I don’t even know where you live) and would like to know whether it can consistently shoot the 1/4″ that your other guns are getting or whether it might be somewhat more accurate.

    - Dr. G.

  • ajvenom Says:

    Thanks Roger Seher!!!

    I specially liked your spec page.

    http://www.marauderairrifle.com/marauder_specifications.php

    Every thing but the kitchen sink. Wow, if this holds true, I can finally say we’ve truelly entered the PCP world here in the US.

    When I say kitchen sink, adjustable power settings is the only thing I could have think of, but 5 out of 6 on my wish list for the Benji came true on the Maurader.

    1. Choked Match Barrel
    2. 2 Stage Adj. Match Trigger
    3. Shrouded Barrel
    4. 10 Shot Repeater
    5. Sturdy wood stock design
    6. Adjustable power settings.

    Number 6 can be crossed off for me if I use Co2. I wanted more shots and lower power for indoor shooting. Also, a shrouded barrel may keep the noise down, so perhaps full power using air won’t be so bad to use most places I shoot.

    If the price is right, this one is going to take the world by storm.

    Now the million dollar question:

    Are these really built by Crosman/Benjamin here in the US?

    If so, pinch me because I must be dreaming.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Abe,

    As far as I know, the only announcement that was planned and that was going to change airgunning forever was the one about the new TV show…American Airgunner.

    I don’t think Robert Beeman even attends the SHOT Shows anymore.

    Edith (Mrs. B.B.)

  • Herb Says:

    RE: Indexing Blog

    Had a different thought on this.

    (1) We start off with a list of BB's blog titles and index those. (A wiki would be nice since Tom could authorize multiple folks to index.)

    (2) The rest of us could cut and paste once in a while as we research something to help move information in "off topic" posts to the appropriate blogs.

    For instance take Daisy 22SG. Tom had a blog article, but questions have come up that Tom answered in other blogs. So we cut pertinent info from old blog articles into new, being careful to leave finger prints as to where Q&A cam from.

    This would make overall blog bigger, but perhaps the posts could be deleted from the old blog if they were off topic.

    Couple of example posts to Tom's review of Daisy 22SG

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/09/daisy-22sg.html

    *** EXAMPLE 1 ***
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/great-airgun-bargains.html

    (From blog article itself…)

    Great bargain No. 3: Daisy 22SG
    For under $100, I don't know where else you'll get a new scoped multi-pump this good. I'm talking about the Daisy 22SG, of course. Please understand that there's a world of difference between this model and Daisy's other multi-pumps. This is a .22 with a real rifled barrel and powerful enough for limited small game hunting. It comes with a decent scope and easy pumping effort, despite the power. I reviewed it in September 2005 (Daisy 22SG). There's a lot of plastic on this rifle, but it's very durable. Don't let that dissuade you from one of the best buys on the market.

    *** EXAMPLE 2 ***

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/picking-airgun-caliber.html

    At June 03, 2006 4:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…


    After reading a lot, I am leaning torward the 22SG. It looks like a pretty good deal for what I want to do. I called around this morning and I can buy it locally.

    What kind of groups could I expect out of a 22SG assuming that I do my part?

    Thanks again,
    Lynn
    ——
    At June 04, 2006 3:27 AM, Blogger Cesarf25s said…

    Lynn

    Call around and try to find yourself a BENJAMIN 392. Yes, it is about 20 bucks more then the daisy 22SG, but i bet even bb will tell you that this rifle is worth more then that.

    ———
    At June 04, 2006 9:24 AM, Anonymous B.B. Pelletier said…

    Lynn,

    You got a lot of answers to your question. The 22SG can hit a .68-caliber paintball at 20 yards every time if you do your part.

    The Benjamin is a better gun, not only for the power but also for the wood and metal construction.

    B.B.

    *** EXAMPLE 3 ***

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/06/rws-diana-34-panther-part-2.html

    At June 27, 2007 9:18 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said…

    Dave,

    Here's how I see it. The Daisy 22SG is a wonderful rifle package for the money. Many shooters want a pneumatic for a very little money, and the 22SG is the best deal in town, for my money. I rate it as a hunter out to about 25-30 yards. If Crosman still offered the 2200 it would be competition, but they don't.

    Now the Benjamin is more of an heirloom air rifle. One that you will hand down to your grandson 50 years from now. The Daisy won't last that long, but Benjamins already have lasted even longer.

    These two guns have equivalent accuracy, but the Benjamin is the more powerful of the two.

    B.B.

    **************

    Does this make sense?

    Herb

  • CJr Says:

    Dr. G,
    I was glad to hear that you don’t know where I live because I haven’t bought a gun safe yet:)

    At this time I don’t plan to scope the Walther. I want it to be what I think is pure cowboy. B.B. has an excellent 3 Part post on it that may answer your question.

    About the Walther trigger, there is no travel in the trigger. When I pull it it fires immediately and I like that. I don’t like the suspense of waiting for the release. On the Daisy 953 and IZH-61 I exceed the 5 second rule and run out of breath before finding the release point. I know, practice. The 61 is adjustable but I haven’t messed with it yet. The 953 is not adjustable. Yet, I am more consistent with the 953 because, as a one pump pneumatic, it has virtually no recoil or vibration.

    With the IZH-61…no, I don’t think I’ve wrung it out yet, nor the 953 for that matter. Right now both guns are better than I am, I am convinced.

    Shooting with a scope is an eye opener:) On the 61 I have a 6X BugBuster that works very well. The 953 has a 4-16X40 BSA that I set on 6. With the scope my sight picture moves way too much. Whenever I breathe the target moves up and down. Whenever I hold my breath my heart beat moves the target up and down. I have been unable to remain rock steady at any time with any rifle even on the “bench” because I am always in contact with the gun at the butt and grip. This is a challenge I face. I end up trying to shoot between heart beats but that doesn’t always work because then I rush my shots and pull the trigger in all sorts of strange ways. There’s not much time between my beats. Maybe Yoga will teach me. Some day I may get a “gun vise” and shoot without touching anything but the trigger just to see what happens, removing me from the picture, almost entirely. I am spending waaaaay too much money:)

    Up to this point, while shooting multiple groups, some groups will get fliers. But since I do get some good 1/4″ groups and some of those groups have same hole shots I believe I can do better. In the future I will be looking for that ratio of flyer groups vs non-flyer. My goal is to get 5 non-flyer groups in a row. I’m hoping the RWS R-10s will take me there.

    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: the post above

    http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/shotshow.html

    Excellent article. Thanks for the heads up. Wow, Chapman didn’t sugar coat his impressions of GAMO. I’ve not been exactly thrilled with many of their products, but I’ve paid little to no attention to their marketing after seeing it all PBA driven.
    I am somewhat interested in the .25 cal rifles but hope they don’t start offering .25 cal PBA.
    I guess since I have no desire to play the velocity game, I never realized just how stupid it is to develop an ammunition that does absolutely nothing beneficial except get you bragging rights. Way to go GAMO! And your triggers rock, too!

  • kevin Says:

    CJr,

    You’re not spending on airguns and gear, you’re investing.

    Now, don’t you feel better.

    kevin

  • CJr Says:

    Shwewww! Good attitude Kevin! Now where did I put that credit card?
    -three peep sights @$99.99 ea.
    -Chrony (blue) $99.95
    -Chrony printer $79.95
    -Crossman Challenger $399.99
    -AirForce Edge $569.95
    -new gun from shot show $?
    -nother new gun from shot show $?
    -gun vise $?
    -airgun fun $priceless
    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Crosman G1 & Barrel wts

    Couldn't resist a bit more playing around. Shot 10 shot group (one time) with G1 shouldered but had downrange end of gun balanced on the end of the muzzle brake. About 1.5" group overall (7 of 10 in 3/4"), but gun is shooting 4.5 inches high.

    I noticed that if I put my finger over joint between barrel and the breech block that I can feel the barrel move slightly at the joint if I push on the barrel.

    Sure this isn't any surprise to Tom (the master), but I was surprised how much slop there evidently is in the lock of the barrel position.

    Since the G1 comes with no sights on barrel anyway, makes me wonder if lock should be positioned on top of barrel to better hold barrel position.

    To me, this supports the notion that springer underlever would be more precise.

    Herb

    PS – I'm not athletic enough to shoot upside down with barrel balanced on muzzle break. So don't even think about suggesting it…

  • kevin Says:

    CJr,

    I understand. One is too many and 100 aren’t enough.

    Just remember, He who dies with the most toys wins…..

    kevin

  • Herb Says:

    RE: New Daisy Underlever

    Website at:

    http://www.blocket.se/vi/17747702.htm?ca=23_11_s

    is selling gun for 2,795 Swedish Krona, which converts to about $340 US. That might give a ballpark at least for what the gun will sell here.

    Herb

  • Randy-in-VA Says:

    RE: the post above

    http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/shotshow.html

    The article had some very kind words about Crosman really listening to the airgun public in implementing features on the Marauder. I’m sure that was in no small part due to our very own Tom Gaylord. Big Ups to you, BB.

    The indexed magazine is a really cool feature, especially if you’ve ever tried to keep track of the number of shots in a hidden magazine.

    Off Topic – I installed the GRT-III in my Crosman G1 last night, but haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet. It only took about 20 minutes, and that was really taking it slow and careful. I could probably do the next one in five minutes. I’ll report back as soo as I get to test it.

  • Anonymous Says:

    He who dies with the most toys…still dies.

  • Anonymous Says:

    CJr,

    I lost 4 Weihrauchs, 1 Air Arms and a BSA this year because I didn’t have a safe.

    Safe was the first thing I bought before I replaced anything.

  • CJr Says:

    Mr Safe man,
    Ouch! I’m going to the Cops store tomorrow.
    -Chuck

  • CJr Says:

    Does anyone know where I can find human silhouette “memory” targets?

    -Chuck

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Dave,

    In my opinion, the 514 is just a rough toy. When I shot it, it was woefully inaccurate. Others may disagree with that, but I think the 61 is a much better gun.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    ajvenom,

    The Marauder really is made in the U.S.

    B.B.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Herb, check out the G1 reviews on Pyramid Air’s website. There is a long one there by a person who was having your problem with a loose barrel and what he did to correct the problem.

    Chuck, a suggestion to tighten up your groups. Get set to squeeze the trigger, but look up at the target instead. Then look back at the target through the scope. Your cross hairs should still be on the bull.

    The idea is that your gun is resting it’s cross hairs on the target with minimal pressure by you to keep it there. Hope that helps you as much as it helped me. Mr B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Chuck,

    Are you asking about Shoot ‘n’ See targets?

    B.B.

  • CJr Says:

    B.B.,
    Re: “Shoot N See”

    Yes, I think so. “Shoot N See” is one name for them. “Memory” targets is another name I’ve heard.

    Actually, what I’m looking for is a kind that once shot it makes the poi very easy to see. Ones I’ve seen leave a yellow blotch on a black background at poi that you can see from a long distance off.

    I looked at several on the Pyramyd site but didn’t see any of the human silhouette types. That shouldn’t surprise me. I mean, who shoots at humans with a pell gun anyway.

    I’m not familiar with any firearm sites so I thought I’d pose the question here. I want them to practice defense with a firearm, though.
    -Chuck

  • kevin Says:

    Chuck,

    Is this what you’re looking for? Scroll down to shoot n c silhouette:

    http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/index.html

    kevin

  • CJr Says:

    Kevin,
    Re: Shoot N See

    Thanks. That’s what I’m looking for. Are there any other sources or brands?

    -Chuck

  • CJr Says:

    Kevin,
    Re: Shoot n see

    Never mind that last question. I know how to google.
    -Chuck

  • kevin Says:

    Chuck,

    Re: Shoot-N-C targets

    Sources are numerous including PA, ebay, cabela’s, bass pro, etc. (google would turn up most).

    If you’re looking for other brands that make a target that turns color like the shoot-n-c I remember seeing one years ago that turned red when you shot it. Don’t remember who made it but I like the flourescent yellow of the shoot-n-c for the long distance shooting I do. Shows up better than the red I tried a long time ago. Been happy with shoot-n-c so haven’t been motivated to look elsewhere. Google may also be a help for alternatives though.

    Good luck.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Chuck,

    oops. you’re quicker than me. don’t get a big head almost everyone is quicker than me nowadays.

    kevin

  • CJr Says:

    Hey slow fingers (now don’t go there), thanks for the extra answer anyway. I appreciate it.
    -Chuck

  • Herb Says:

    RE: G1 and barrel movement

    B.B.,

    Thanks for the tip. I read the reviewer’s remarks and he really did some work on his G1.

    I think the problem I’ve noted is different. It isn’t side to side movement but a slight movement up and down. You can’t feel it at all if you “wave” the gun. You can only feel the movement if you put a finger on the joint and push up and down on the barrel.

    I put weights on the end of the barrel which made the G1 shoot low, and then used the muzzle brake as the second pivot point which shot high. Allin all a difference of 6 inches at 10 meters.

    When the barrel closes against the breech block there is a rubber o-ring which is compressed. I can see a few thousandths of an inch at the top of this joint. Well within specs I assume.

    The weights on the end of the barrel didn’t result in a marked improvement in the group size. But using the muzzle break as the second pivot point really seemed to tighten the group size up. Best group at 10 meters that I’ve shot. I wasn’t trying to be super careful. With 10 shots I just want to see where average POI would be.

    My supposition is that the lock for the barrel should be on the top of the gun. The lock should pull against pivot joint to really snug the barrel in place. I really think this is a minor design problem. For $100 I paid for an adequate design, not the finest design ever.

    Again – thanks for the tip. I may take my stock off mine just to look at the joint more carefully.

    Herb

  • Vince Says:

    Herb, are you SURE that the O ring on the breech of your G1 is rubber? The Quest had always used a harder material in the past that was a whitish-yellowish-tanish color. I’ve found that sometimes that seal prevents the action from locking up all the way, and when closed it will budge up and down a bit with the slightest pressure.

    If that’s the case the easy fix USED to be to install a #108 O ring that fit the groove nicely. But the last Quest variant I’d seen had a deeper seal, and I don’t think a single O ring will work.

    I’ve also found that frequently that seal will eventually mash down enough where it allows the action to lock up properly.

  • Dr. G. Says:

    Chuck,

    Here’s my tip for better shooting…When you are properly in position, there should be such an absence of muscle tension that you can simply allow your bones and gravity to hold the rifle in position.

    This is being taught to me by the Whiscombe rifle, which I am continuing to enjoy very much in part because I am learning some things about my body through it. I am learning some new things because of its superb balance and match trigger. It allows all muscles to relax, and I see the big improvement when that happens.

    I believe that the recoil of the gun is different when one is relaxed versus tense. Once I am in position, I do a quick mental run through of my arms, shoulders, hands, etc. and check for muscle tension, and relax each part that is tense. I guarantee that when you do this, you will become aware that parts of your body are tense, which is causing you to move the rifle. At 10 meters, there is no excuse for a bench rested rifle to move, even if you are green. It is just sitting there, resting.

    When tense, I sit (not the modern wrap around style…due to lower back disc problems, I am forced to rest my elbow on my knee, which is a handicap of 1/16″ or 2/16″ at 10 yards) and make 1/4″ groups (of 5) with my Whiscombe, but when relaxed, the groups shrink to 1/16 or 2/16″. I can get 2 or sometimes 3 groups like this before I lose concentration/relaxation and start hurrying the shots.

    If I am emotionally in a good place (feeling competent, relaxed, effective, and in control) then I can relax completely and then I am in the zone. If I am frustrated/upset/preoccupied, then even though I know what I must do, I cannot shoot better than the 1/4″ groups.

    I have found that the relaxation of all muscles is also important in bench shooting, but perhaps not as noticeable.

    - Dr. G.

  • Volvo Says:

    My pellets from PA came this Saturday. I was only momentarily disappointed when I did not get the fancy new packaging. But the pellets were none the worse for the old school shipping and I finally had the Kodiaks in .177 for the FX Whisper.

    One of my favorite parts of the Whisper is the 16 shot magazine and the flawless operation, and the Kodiaks went in without a hitch. Even more satisfying was the down range result. Much better than the standard weight pellets I keep on hand for my HW97.
    I was able to get an average of about 905 fps. So energy wise she also shows a preference for these heavier pellets. I think these will be SOP in the FX Whisper. I ordered both the std. Kodiaks and the match. I will see if there is a noticeable difference in this rifle between the two.

    Typing is a nice break between fills

  • Herb Says:

    Volvo,

    RE: O-ring in G1 breech

    You’re right it is a tan o-ring. Don’t know what the composition is. Being an idiot I misstated it as “rubber” earlier.

    Sharp eye!

    Herb

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    MARAUDER for ajvenom and all,

    Yes it is made in the U.S.

    I didn’t report the specs, but it looks like you got them right.

    Crosman has promised me the first rifle to test. I will report when I can add anything, but there is no time to rehash what we already know.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hello everyone! I am new to airgunning and am enjoying all of your comments and knowedge on this blog.

    At the advice of B.B., I am going to post a problem I am having with my Beeman p17 here in hopes some of you knowledgeable air gunners might help me out.

    As I have stated, I am totally new to air gunning, though I have been shooting centerfire pistols, rifles and shotguns for most of my life.

    I purchased a Beeman p17 in the Bargain Cave at Cabela’s. It was $20 out the door. This is one of those buy at own risk/no returns type deals. So, I took a chance at that price. When I got the pistol home, it was awesome! It shot very well and seemed to have some power too. I was amazed at its accuracy for an air pistol. About 250 shots through it, though and I have been experiencing some problems.

    When I load a pellet and go pull the trigger, their is a very muffled pop and the pellet stays in the barrel, just as it was when I loaded it. I can only get it to fire out the muzzle when I push the pellet further down the barrel with an allen wrench … kinda give it a head start. What might be causing this?

    Also, the gun seems to vary in effort needed to cock it now. Sometimes it is as difficult as the first time, other times it takes little effort. Regardless of how much effort it takes to pump, it still won’t shoot a pellet unless I give it a “head start”.I don’t know if this is a related problem or not, but I though I would include it.

    Again, being new to airguns, I am not familiar with where to get replacement O-rings or the Pellguniol that seem handy to have. Can you advise me on this?

    Thank you for any help you may give me on these issues. I really like the pistol, but, want that performance back. I am not one who is scared to pull something apart to fix an issue, I just don’t have much of a grasp on these pellet guns. Thanks again!!

    Jason

  • kevin Says:

    Jason,

    WELCOME!!!

    Wish I had a beeman p17 so I could help with your problem. So many experienced airgunners here that I’m sure you will get some advice/suggestions soon.

    kevin

  • Mr B. Says:

    Jason, Welcome! If you go to PA’s website and look under pistol, Beeman, for the review by Norman, it sounds like he was writig about your P17. Mr B.

  • derrick38 Says:

    Jason,

    I’ve got a P17 and have had to solve several problems. Sounds like the o-ring seal on the piston is failing. Simple fix. Don’t worry.

    Email me and I’ll walk you through it.
    dwk164@sbcglobal.net

    Derrick

  • Anonymous Says:

    Thanks for the welcome, guys! Mr. B, I will check out Norman’s review and Derrick38, I will be emailing you.

    Thanks again, everyone!

    Jason

  • Anonymous Says:

    It woulf appear to me that Pyramyd Air has been sucked up into the corporate world. With all the great air guns out there it seems as of late everything is Gamo. Look at the news letter-Gamo-lookat most of the reports-Gamo-look at the flyers they send out via e-mail-Gamo. It would be a shame to learn that a great Co. has secommed to the corporatr giants and that Gamo has pyramyd in their back pocket….

  • Anonymous Says:

    No stupid questions,eh. Well, I purchased a Walther Falcon Hunter from Pyramyd. Nice gun, great power, good accuracy, but hate the cheesy trigger set up. Is there any good trigger set ups that can be retro fitted to this otherwise satisfactory gun? Sure would like to see a good blog on this.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    There is no aftermarket trigger for the Walther Falcon Hunter rifle. The GRT III trigger that works so well in many Gamo guns and copies of Gamo guns does not fit in your rifle.

    The trigger will break in and work better after several thousand shots, but it will never be a good trigger.

    B.B.

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