Norica Massimo – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Wacky Wayne heads to the Nationals
Before we begin, Wacky Wayne stopped by my house on the way to the 2009 Field Target Nationals in Somerville, Texas, and we visited for a few hours.


Wayne Burns and his USFT field target rifle head for the U.S. National Field Target Championships in south Texas.

Part 1


Norica Massimo has real style! The raised ventilated rib does nothing functional, but it looks good.

It’s raining today, so I’m doing an inside job. Besides, we wanted to know how this Norica Massimo stacks up because there’s been a lot of interest in it.

The trigger
As I reported in Part 1, the Massimo trigger feels both light and crisp, plus it does have provisions for adjusting the spot at which the second stage engages. I tried adjusting it, but in the end I decided that it was best where the factory had it, which is with the least amount of first stage travel. I now notice some creep in stage two.

The first shot…
…went 1,324 f.p.s. It was a detonation. After that, I had to shoot 10 more shots to get the rifle to calm down. Even then, I think it’s still burning oil. This rifle probably needs a thousand-shot break-in.

RWS Basic
The first pellet I tested was the 7-grain RWS Basic. The average velocity was 933 f.p.s., and the spread went from 921 to 945. The pellets fit the breech well, and a little on the loose side. The average energy calculates to 13.53 foot-pounds.

Beeman Kodiak
Next, I tried the Beeman Kodiak. It’s a heavy pellet for a spring-piston rifle, but it fits the bore of the Massimo very well. They averaged 741 f.p.s., and the spread was a tight 736 to 747. The muzzle energy works out to 12.93 foot-pounds.

Norica wadcutters
Remember–I found a tin of 7.5-grain Norica wadcutters packed in the box with the Massimo? I tested them, too, because I’m going to test them for accuracy. They average 890 f.p.s. so the average muzzle energy is 13.19 foot-pounds. The spread went from 879 to 919, so it’s pretty broad.

Cocking effort
The Massimo cocks with 43 lbs. of effort. The ball-bearing detent pops open easily and the barrel begins to cock with light force, but just past halfway the effort builds quickly, making the rifle harder to cock than a Beeman R1. That, coupled with the large size of the rifle makes it an adult-only proposition.

Trigger-pull
The trigger breaks at exactly 2 lbs., fulfilling my prophecy of a light, crisp unit. Though that weight isn’t adjustable and there are no known aftermarket mods at this time, I think most shooters will find this trigger quite usable.

Firing behavior
The rifle fires with little vibration, though there is some. The forward lunge is quite pronounced. If you hold the stock lightly (artillery hold), it’s very pleasant to shoot.

Impression
Well, looks don’t tell all! I used to park cars at a fancy restaurant while I was in college, and I can tell you that all Corvettes do not drive alike! The Massimo is a bigger air rifle than I had thought at first glance. With 43 lbs. cocking effort, it will most likely be a hunter rather than a plinker. The scope rail does have a proper stop, so no problem there, though with the new BKL mounts on the market that will soon cease to be an excuse.

The styling still excites me, so we will see how the rifle feels when it’s actually being shot. Next, I’ll test accuracy, including a round with the open sights.

62 thoughts on “Norica Massimo – Part 2


  1. B.B.,

    Now that look's like a genuine smile on Wayne's face. Either you told him one of your better jokes or he was greatly enjoying the time you two shared. I have a feeling that Wayne loves life. What is that blue, tape like stuff Wayne has wound at various places on his USFT?

    The Massimo sounds like a gun that would be better served in .22 caliber. Your paragraph on "Trigger Pull" appears twice in the article.

    kevin


  2. Go get em Wayne:-)

    This Massimo is looking good so far. You mentioned Browning BAR looks, first thing I thought was Browning A-5. Regardless, this one has some classic style to it. Look forward to the accuracy report.

    Al In CT



  3. Morning Edith,

    Is Tom off filming again?

    Wayne, shoot well and good luck!

    Mechredd, thanks for the smile–heat reduction!

    Kevin, I'm with you and think that .22 caliber is the way to go with this gun.

    Mr B.


  4. Mr. B.,

    Tom will not be flying to NY for anymore filming this year (and I'm truly grateful for that…as are our kitties!).

    Right now, he's at the range with a pickup truck filled with airguns & firearms, ammo & gear for testing. After several weeks of non-stop rain & stormy conditions, we finally caught a small break. We do have some strong breezes every now & then, but at least it's not raining.

    Tom will be at the Roanoake airgun show next week & then the LASSO shoot the beginning of November. That's the end of his travels for 2009. He'll be driving to both events. I'll be here tending the home fires, doing lots of work & monitoring the blog. Somebody's gotta stay home & do some actual work!

    Edith



  5. Al In CT,

    You and I think alike. If you look at the comments in part one of the massimo you'll see my comment that I also thought it looked alot more like an A-5 than a BAR.

    kevin



  6. Wayne,
    In theater they say, "Break a leg". I don't know what's appropriate for a field target championship, so break a piston! I don't know what that thing is you're holding (Kevin called it a USFT) but it looks like it was built by a plumber :) Something that rad has to shoot good.
    -Chuck


  7. Wayne, I agree. Nice to have a face to put to a name. You do look like wooly mountain man in the lumber business! ;-)

    RE: size of 30 shot group vs 5 shot group

    da-da! the answer is 64.0% as big as a 30 shot group.

    If you want the details look at the comments in yesterdays blog.

    I restrained myself as long as I could…

    Herb


  8. B.B.

    I feel like we must be related. I also used to be a lowly car jockey. Good money, but soured me on customer service jobs forever. Yes, all like cars do not drive alike. Usually the ones that smell bad drive worse.

    Edith,

    Greetings! Great to see you writing today. Also like you, I am right handed, but in a cruel twist of fate, left eye dominant. I use a scope anyway (because I am blind as a deaf/mute bat with cataracts) with varying results. Occasionally I will shoot left-handed just to keep that dominant eye happy, and surprisingly the results are almost the same as right-handed. It feels very unnatural however.

    Wayne!

    You look like a proud papa. My fiance looked over my shoulder while I was reading the article and said, "That'll be you in a couple of years." To which I responded, "I wish, that setup must be 3-4 thousand dollars." Plus you are wearing what appear to be green jeans, which is sufficiently wacky to have earned your moniker. I'm probably the last on the blog to say 'congratulations' on the title. Outstanding, you must have serious skills and dedication to match. If you are still considering awarding a hat to be passed down to future State Champions, I think it should feature several pellet holes in it, don't you?

    Slinging Lead in Powder Springs



  9. My Pyramyd order for the Makarov BB pistol (and a see-through airsoft springer revolver) arvs here on Maui today–Iyam soo excited…Christmas in October.

    Wayne- it's good to see what you look like (great photo, btw, B.B., and thanx for posting it). You don't look at all like the picture of you that I've had in my head after all these years of reading your posts; you look better. Love that beard. Good luck at the contest.


  10. So, that's what Wayne is doing in Texas. Good luck Wayne. As your shooting opponent, I have even more reason to wish you luck. :-)

    Regarding the relationship of group sizes, I've reversed my position so that I don't think there is any constant relation between group sizes. Last night's example related group sizes for a five shot group and a 30 shot group where the 30 shot group was in the neighborhood of 4 inches (I assume those are the units). That may be true for a specific case. But what if the size of your 30 shot group is not 4 inches? What if it's one inch as in the earlier example that B.B. discussed? Are we to assume that a 5 shot group will have the same 64% relationship? (That seems rather high based on experience.) I don't see why it should.

    I'm starting from the assumption that a 30 shot group will fill up someone's call radius with a normal distribution curve. Outside of the call radius, shooting skills, which is to say direct cause and effect, take over and statistics do not apply. But call radii vary between different distances, different people, and different circumstances so the curve will have to change shape to fit. It can only do this by changing its standard deviation–in other words, squishing inward. For normal curves of different standard deviations, the relations between groups of different sizes will be different.

    I think that the only things that can be salvaged are the basic features of the normal distribution curve.

    -small size groups are more variable than large groups up to 30 or thereabouts which should be fairly stable

    -small groups (on average) expand relatively faster than larger groups up to around 5 shots. For greater numbers than 5 shots the increase is approximately linear but it is not directly proportional. In other words, a 10 shot group will not be double the size of a 5 shot group as I had supposed. What the relationship is is unknowable without knowing the exact kind of distribution curve you're dealing with which can only be found from observation. In other words the relation between 5 and 30 shot groups at 5 yards rested will be different than 50 yards rested. This should be testable.

    -for very large groups, close to 30, there seems to be disagreement in the literature. The normal curve with 1 standard deviation has a flaring at the outside suggestive of a rapid expansion as you get close to 30. One of the articles on this subject claimed that the outside of the curve follows a "lognormal" distribution which is the opposite: a very abrupt end to the curve. Since few shoot 30 shot groups, this seems like an academic question.

    Anyway, I think those are the universal features of the relations between group sizes, but I don't see that you can attach numbers relating group sizes in all situations.

    Matt61


  11. I've always tried to picture in my head what the typical field target champion would look like…now I know!! Good luck Wayne!!

    -Aaron

    word verification is "sweet beard" go figure!!


  12. RE: "but I don't see that you can attach numbers relating group sizes in all situations."

    No, you can't compare my 30 shot group to your 5 shot group. But If I shoot a 5 shot group then a 30 shot group it is reasonable to assume that my 5 shot group will be 64% of the 30 shot group.

    In such a comparison it is assumed that the underlying variability on a per shot basis doesn't change, which is reasonable for the same setup. But you change guns, or change pellets, or change from a calm day to a windy day, then that assumption doesn't hold.

    One 5 shot group and one 30 shot group are just samples however. So you'd need to do the experiment say twenty times (take ratio of one 5 shot and one 30 shot) to get the "average" of 64% with any reliability.

    Such is statistics…. That is why a confidence interval is so important, not just a number.


  13. DB,

    Crosman tries to entice you with the low cost of the 1377, but then you will want the steel breech, 1399 stock, and the forearm from a 2289 for better leverage and looks. While I was at it I ordered a .22 barrel and bolt. Since I was already paying for shipping may as well order a 24" .177 barrel too eh? Then, since you have the dovetails, you'll probably want a decent scope (bug buster) and necessary mounts. Mine needed B square mounts to adjust for barrel droop ($$$) my scope could not compensate. Then I found a cheap trigger shoe on the 54 forum. If you look in Webster's dictionary under slippery slope you will see a picture of me holding my 1377c. "Nah, I just want a cheap pistol for plinking." Yeah, dream on.

    Joe B,

    You live in Maui? (long pause to let envy subside.) For all of those of us who don't live in paradise, let me say Aloha! you big jerk;)

    Sorry, bitterness just washed over me like one of your perfectly formed azure waves of warm clear water. No offense!

    Slinging Lead in Powder Springs


  14. BB,
    You MUST confront your scope manufacturer contacts and put pressure on them to build scopes with levels inside. If you already have this in the works, hooray for you!!! Keep the pressure on. I don't think I'll buy another scope without the inside level.

    It totally removes a nuisance variable from the game and is a confidence builder. Target acquisition is still as fast and you can always see the bubble/crosshair in the corner of your eye while remaining on target. Even if you feel like you must move your eyes to look it is nanoseconds without moving your head one iota.

    I don't know why Leapers or Centerpoint couldn't do it and still keep their prices as reasonable as they do today. You know there is a lot of room inside that tube. How hard could it be to glue a level tube in there?

    -Chuck


  15. Chuck,

    I was excited about the internal bubble level back in 1998, when Anthony Story made a couple dozen.

    I have been asking Leapers, who also make Centerpoint scopes, for this feature for five years.

    B.B.


  16. Dear Slinging Lead,

    Last time I checked, airline fares to Maui were cheap. Especially one-way tickets.

    (Can't you feel those perfectly formed azure waves of warm clear water calling you?)

    Life is too short to be where you do not want to be.

    :-)


  17. Words of praise are in order for Crosman's Service. My 22 Nitro's gas piston decided to quit last week. Crosman received it last Thursday for repair and UPS returned it to me today. WOW! One week and back in business. Now that's the way customer care should be. They've got my business.

    bubbaj


  18. CJr,

    Scope arrived this afternoon. You're RIGHT! A scope with an internal level is the way to go. Will mount it on my Discovery which is coming home tomorrow after a warrenty repair trip to Crosman.

    Now I need to figure out a way of checking its listed magnification against its actual magnification.
    Do you have any suggestions?

    It appears to be a well constructed scope with a life time warrenty. I like the blue light for illuminating the cross hairs and level much better than the green or red used by Leapers.

    Again thanks for the tip
    Mr B.


  19. For all you airgun groupies (those, like Matt61 and Herb, who are really, really interested in groups and the statistical analysis of same), here's a question, which I hope you can answer in simple, non-mathematical terms.

    I drew up a target consisting of 25 identical, half-inch circles.

    I then shot two pellets at each circle. I used my 1377c with a scope at 21 feet.

    All 50 shots were within their respective half-inch targets.

    Is this the same as a single 50-shot group, measuring a half inch?


  20. Wayne,

    Good luck at the Nationals.

    B.B.,

    Great looking rifle, but I think this should be part 2.

    Hope you had fun at the range today with your truck load of guns. It has rained all day here in N LA, but hopefully we will have a few dry days.

    Boyd


  21. PurcHawk

    RE: 2 shots in 25 circles

    Yes, essentially it is equivalent to 50 shots in one circle. With the 25 circles you should be able to measure x and y distance from POA which would have been impossible if you had shot at one target.

    Now if you want to get really, really picky there is a slight difference. I assume that you shot from the same position which means that you had to shift the position of the rifle (left-right & up-down) between the 25 groups. The assumption, which seems reasonable, is that this shift made no difference.

    To get ridiculous to make the point consider this. If you had to tilt gun from 45 degrees up to 45 degrees down to hit the 25 target spots then this wouldn't be a reasonable assumption. For this to happen the 1/2 spots would have to be 21 feet apart.

    If you plug the numbers into a computer, it is no problem to calculate how much difference a 3" difference in target height throws off you aim. Practically you'd never be able to measure it. The value is so small that the experimental error is much much greater than the absolute positioning error.

    A different way to think of it is this. The middle spot in a 5×5 array is dead straight ahead. You shoot 25 targets where you just shoot the center circle in the 5×5 array. Now you shoot a target where you shoot all 25 circles. You repeat this 30 times. After you grind all the numbers, I'm sure that you wouldn't be able to find any significant difference between the two methods. There actually is a difference, but the difference is so small that it is lost in the experimental error.


  22. Slinging Lead,
    Yep many have done the 1377 mods and ended up with a $200 pistol/carbine.

    Not me though… mine is stone stock. Just polished it a lot, added a stock, and then a scope. But other than that it is stone stock.

    And yes it shoots like a dream out to 20 yards. Past that I grab my Disco.

    DB


  23. Herb and Matt,

    Sorry I have not been able to contribute to this much lately, but I've been swamped with work and my kids’ hockey lately.

    I think you are confusing probabilities with what I'll call scaling factors.

    As I understand the paper – and I do need to put more time into it – it means something different than what you are inferring. The relationship of a 5 shot group being 64% of a 30 shot group is not one in which the size of a 5 shot group is 64% of a 30 shot group, but that the statistical average of 5 shot groups would be 64% of the size of the statistical average of 30 shot groups (which we all agree is very close to the same value as one 30 shot group, but not identical). These are very different statements. The paper speaks to relationships of statistical probabilities, which are very different than scaling ratios.

    The one thing I do feel certain of is that you can’t shoot a 5 shot group and assume that it represents 64% of the size of the extreme spread of the system – with or without fliers. But if you shoot 30 five shot groups and average them, you’ll be there. Personally, I’d rather shoot one 30 shot group as it would be a lot easier.

    Alan


  24. Wayne,

    Looking sweet. Good luck at the nationals. Too bad you couldn’t squeeze the Volvo logo in the photo. : )

    Did Tom let you play with any of his toys? I know you grew your collection to Jack and the Beanstalk proportions, but I’d guess he still has some interesting pieces to put forward.

    V


  25. Mr. B,
    I hope your spatial abilities are better than mine because I had a hard time comparing images by eyesight alone. However, I think that's the only way to do it.

    I did use the mil-dots in my three scopes for comparison also, and I thought that would be a good objective way of doing it but I'm not sure that's a good way to compare. There's some kind of optical thing that may be going on there that I might be missing.

    However, try using the mil-dots at 50yds, if you have the room, and see if your target covers the same number of mil-dots. My comparison was at only 10yds so the difference may not be great enough to see.

    I can only say mine is working great at 10yds. Today I put it on my 953 and was shooting 1/4" one holers with ease.

    If anybody else out there has any suggestion I'd like to try them.

    -C


  26. General question on the expected accuracy of a tuned Quest 800:

    I have a tuned Quest 800 (TurboTune by Gene in SC with a Tarantula XL spring, new Apex seal and custom machined guides – done in attempt to make my venture into a springer as accurate as possible after the mainspring broke), and I’m wondering what kind of accuracy I should be working to achieve in terms of group sizes at 20 yards with this gun. While it is still no high end gun, I still expect it is probably more capable than I am. I would just like to get a feel for how much farther I need to improve.

    My best 5 shot group has been about .6 inches with Beeman FTS pellets (it does not like JSBs, yielding only about 12 ft.lbs. vs. 14.5 and more accuracy with the FTS), but I frequently still get some that are an inch – which as BB stated is not at all accurate.

    I love the tune – the firing characteristics are so much better now – but would love to know how much I should expect to improve while I practice and save up for a Marauder.

    Alan


  27. BB,
    Accuracy testing will be the real deal — but what can you say if it shoots like a shotgun:)?

    Wayne,
    Your descriptions have been right on, but its nice to see photographic evidence. Good luck.

    Volvo,
    Just to clarify, no Bombay Sapphire in my stocking, please:).

    Matt, Herb, Alan,
    I'm really skeptical about physically scaling a 5 shot group to a thirty shot group. If I shoot 6 five shot groups, I wouldn't expect a 30 shot group to be much if any bigger than the largest group of the six, although it it would almost certainly be bigger than the "average" of the 6 groups. Does this align with the principles of statistics or not?


  28. RE: 5 vs 30 shot group

    I did put time into the paper, and I searched for the right a paper for a long time. I've known all along that group sizes are not normal distributions. The fewer shots in the group, the less like a normal distribution will occur. So a histogram of the measurements from a 5 shot group will be less like a normal distribution than a histogram of the measurements from a 30 shot group.

    I agree that if you shoot thirty pairs of groups (one 5 shot group and one 30 shot group) then the ratio for each pair won't be exactly 64% each time. But on average, over the thirty pairs, the ratio should be 64%. 64% is thus the statistical EXPECTATION even if I just do one pair of groups.

    What also needs to be defined is the confidence interval around the 64%. Unfortunately with the data at hand such a confidence interval can't be calculated. The paper I referenced didn't provide confidence intervals for ratios, or confidence intervals for pooling data. In order to do that, you'd have to assume the normal distribution. It would be close, but not exact.

    The ratio of 64% is exact – assuming:
    (1) that the horizontal error and the vertical errors are equal,
    (2) that each of the errors is normally distributed,
    (3) that the horizontal and vertical errors are independently distributed
    (4) that the errors for individual shots is consistent between the 5 shot groups and the 30 shots groups.

    This works even if the rifle shoots like a shotgun.


  29. BG Farmer,

    Your expectations do align pretty well with the principles of statistics.

    If you shoot 6 five shot groups, the odds are that one of them will be a good bit larger than the other five, and will be pretty close to a 30 shot group, at least compared to the average of those 6 groups.

    But the trick is in defining what “pretty close” really is. Gut feel, without doing a mathematical experiment, I would expect that one might find that most times the largest 5 shot group would be around 75 to 85% of the size of 30 shot group.

    Getting a group much larger than that would be difficult as it would take two “bad” shots in opposite sides of the intended POI. The odds of an individual shot being more than 2 sigma out (plus or minus 2 sigma is about 9 is only about 3%; 2 out of 5 that far out is less than that, and making them have to be on opposite sides of the intended POI would reduce it further.

    Statistics are hard to explain with words only, but if you want a better explanation I can work something out.

    And if the Bombay Sapphire does find its way into your stocking, I'll be willing to can work out a trade for a few tins of pellets 

    Herb,

    The ratio is exact, but I still say it is a probability ratio, not a scaling ratio. You are right in that the confidence interval is important, as is the direction it is applied

    In the end the statement still has to be one of probability and not of absolute measurement since it is an extrapolated value from a smaller sample size.

    If I could shoot well enough I’d test it out – for me it would have to be mathematical experiment. I think a Monte Carlo analysis would show that the confidence interval would not be very high on the statement that CTC extreme spread of a random 5 shot group represents 64% of the same value for a 30 shot group, even if all four of your conditions are met. As for the direction on the CI, I believe that we would want to know the CI that the sample’s spread is no less than 64% of the 30 shot group. Again, I doubt it would be a confidence inspiring CI – probably around 50% or so.

    Alan


  30. Alan,

    It is a scaling ratio, but there is a probability around any individual measurement of the ratio using one 5 shot group and one 30 thirty shot group.

    If I remember my error propagation right, and assuming that the errors were normally distributed, then the standard deviation of the 0.64 ratio would be:

    0.64 * SQRT(.27^2 + 0.133^2) = 0.64*.30 = 0.19

    So a 95% confidence interval would be +/- 2 std deviations which would be:
    0.64 +/- 0.38
    or from 0.26 to 1.02

    As I said, this is ROUGHLY correct. The hitch is that the group sizes, particularly for the 5 shot groups, won't be distributed per the normal distribution. I think the CI determined from the normal distribution will actually bit a bit too big. It also shouldn't be symmetrical about the average of 0.64.

    Herb


  31. Alan,
    You said, "If I could shoot well enough I’d test it out…" Now, why would that be true? Assuming I can shoot better than you, why wouldn't your results have the same ratio as my results if these calcs are legit? Wouldn't it be that your measurements would just be larger yet still be the 64%? So you could test it out – except maybe you'd need an 8×14 target while I'd need only a .3x.5 (in my wildest dreams)

    -Chuck


  32. B.B.,

    Looks like my old timers is catching up with me even faster than I thought. I saw the ,Part 1, [link to first article], under Wayne's picture, and did't look at the top. Someone should have straightened me out, because I am not trying to act like unnamed on here, because I really enjoy all the different articles and comments by everyone.

    Sorry,
    Boyd


  33. Herb:

    Thanks for the simple answer. I think I set the test up to meet your criteria. I crowded all 25 circles into the smallest space I could without overlapping. And, I shot from the same seated bench position, moving only enough to cock the airgun and then coming back to position.

    I think you are saying that so long as I didn't alter the set up of all 50 shots too much, it is safe to say my 1377c will shoot a half-inch, 50 shot group, or very close to it.

    Would this be a superior way to test accuracy rather than five or ten shot groups aimed at the same point? Or is that taking it too far?



  34. PurcHawk,

    If you calculate the absolute vertical and horizontal error for each shot, then you have a lot more data. You have 50 horizontal and 50 vertical measurements as opposed to one group size measurement if you shot one 50 shot group.

    With the individual errors on the 50 shots you could also test for fliers which practically might be very important. How often do you flinch? Is that a pellet problem or a problem with you?

    Not sure how all the programs work, but there are computer programs where you could scan in the target and point to the shots with the mouse. The computer would then do all the measuring and calculating – the heavy lifting so to speak.

    ————-
    5/30 shot group

    Doesn't matter how bad you shoot, the result is the same… the ratio is on average 64%

    If I shoot 1 inch groups for 30 shots, then the expect size of a 5 shot group is 64% of that or 0.64 inches. If I shoot 10 inch groups for 30 shots, then the expect size of a 5 shot group is 64% of that or 6.4 inches.

    So although it is impossible to predict what size a 30 shot group will be, the relative size to a 5 shot group can be determined – with some assumptions that I outlined above. The assumptions may or may not really be true.


  35. Herb and CJer,

    It's not just that my group sizes are probably larger than yours, its that I don't think my shooting results are best represented by a normal distribution yet. All of these statistical liklihoods require that the system producing the data behaves the right way. Different distributions require different analysis.

    I feel like I may have a bi-modal distribution around the intended POI when I look at my collection of groups.

    I have been planning to do PurcHawk's experiment one of these days, but I want to work out at least some of the kinks in my shooting first.

    Alan



  36. Joe B.,

    Ballistol just didn't move very fast and PA has to keep a tight inventory. But you should be able to get it at a well-stocked gun store. I have several local places where it's carried.

    B.B.


  37. Alan,
    If a normal distribution requires that the system producing the data behaves the right way we'll never get to the bottom of this problem :)

    -Chuck


  38. Guys….Please!

    Groups size is NOT normally distributed.

    The smaller the number of shots, the worse the deviation.

    A statistical tables on group size, or extreme spread, is very very difficult to find.


  39. I didn't mean that group size was normally distributed – I meant that the variation in POI of my shooting is not normally distributed. Since the results of MY shooting are not normally distributed, the base assumptions for analyzing the results of MY group samples do not work the same.

    For a good shooter, X and Y variation from the intended POI should be normally distributed (you can pretty much see it in the pictures of BB's and other's large groups – nice round shape). Thus statistical predictions on groups sizes (whatever the count) can be made as we have been discussing. Also, I agree and understand that the data "group size" is not normally distributed, even though the population of shots from which it is derived can (and should) be normally distributed.

    Alan



  40. BB,

    Since we are talking about springer, I have a question about mine.

    I just found that the lid (?, the one that had two holes at the end of my spring house) on my Benjamin SS had slowly turned clockwise. Is it normal? should I turned it back? and does it had anything to do with velocity or accuracy of my air gun?

    Another question, why is the scope stopper had a pointed end? because my Benjamin SS had just chew the pointy end of my scope stoper. Wouldn't it be stronger if it had a flat end?


  41. Luke,

    Yes a scope stop pin that was flat would be stronger. But the company that makes a pointed scope stop is trying to fit as many guns as possible. The pointed stop will fit smaller holes.

    As for the "lid" and "spring house" I don't know what you are referring to.

    B.B.


  42. Who is that person? That must be someone Tom and Edith picked up at the "Cracker Barrel" to work in the garden to be…

    looks like a hobo or something.. I'm a business owner don't ya know.. couldn't be me..

    That tape covers rags to take the sharpness of the metal bracket on the knee stand…. so I can wrap my left arm … or ah the hobo can wrap is left arm around the stand and lock his left hand on the bottom the the pistol grip..

    Tom and Kevin were right of course, my non clicking method gave me a few problems… but I did clean seven lanes in a row (4 hits no misses) after going 2/2 1/3 and 0/4 on earlier lanes.. ending both days with 92/120 in the 12 foot pound international class.. 8th out of ten in that group.. Three time national champ Paul Cray won.. here is a link to the scores..

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/451309/message/1255982551/Nationals+-+State+of+Texas+scores

    I'm off to bed, just got in from Texas.. more tomorrow.

    Wacky Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  43. Kevin and CJr, thanks for the tip on using the "current blog", I hope I am now in the right place? (not much of a blogger as you can see)

    Anyway… will be posting my S&W 586 results and observations here if (again) this is the right place to so.

    As to the 10 meter range, that is inside my garage from back door to roll up door (actually 39 feet). I have a total of 80 feet from roll-up door to back fence for longer range shooting with the back-door open.

    Will be back here often to share info and data.

    Brian



  44. Just finished a 120 round shooting session with the new S&S 586. 6 inch barrel tonight, no sandbag or steady rest but… sitting down eye-level with the target and backstop. Two hand hold, open sights and Gamo Match pellets.

    Putting 8 out of 10 shots into a 1-1/2 inch target dot at 10 meters. Used single action mode except for a few shots. Double action is going to take some practice to control the aimpoint more steadily.

    Tried RWS Superdomes but… they fit way too tight in the magazine so didn't bother loading up. Gamo Match and Premier pointed seem to fit well and I think the lead alloys are softer than the RWS too. The magazines are well designed and should accomodate all shapes of pellet noses (as long as the diameter is not too tight). The Gamo Match wadcutter pellet length only occupies about 2/3 of the length/depth of each chamber when pushed flush at the back of the magazine so, pointed and longer round nose pellets should have plenty of space too.

    I had no issues with the sights, the grips or any of the Co2 loading mechanisms and the cylinder crane is as smooth to operate as my S&W model 27 firearm. BTW the change from the 4" to 6" barrel required very little sight adjustment at 10 meters. This is impressive, as it shows me that the barrel threads and barrel shroud alignment are nearly identical from one barrel length to another. Good machining repeatability by Umarex/Walther, or as Sham-Wow Vince would say… "you know the Germans make good stuff…".

    Well.. enough for tonight. Off to Walmart tomorrow for a 25 pack of Crosman Co2 and a few 1000 pellets. Man, this pistol is fun.

    Brian in Idaho



  45. Brian,
    Good report on the S&W. I wonder if the longer barrel would make much difference at a longer range? Technically it should but sometimes things don't do what they should.

    I do not have a favorite pellet for my 586. I shoot at such close range that it doesn't matter. So I get by on the cheap and pretty much drain a CO2 cart before there is not enough pressure for the next shot. This usually causes the last pellet to jam half way between the magazine and the barrel. You can't turn the magazine or eject it at that point but a thick weed whacker line down the barrel will force the pellet back into the magazine and it can then be ejected.

    Most of my practice is about someone or something breaking and entering my house. The 586 helps me develop hand eye coordination for when I have to use a fire arm.

    BTW, you are still on an article that is about 6 days old. To always get the current day's article cut and paste the following link into your browser and the bookmark it for future use. This link will always take you to the most current posting where all comments are welcome. We do not worry about being off topic on this blog. everything goes.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

    I'll post my comment there as well.

    -Chuck


  46. Brian,
    The current post is titled "Something for Nothing Part 2", created Friday. BB and/or Edith publish a new post every day except weekends. We have to entertain ourselves all weekend on Friday's post :>)

    Let me know if you're having trouble with the link I sent you in my previous comment and I'll try to walk you through getting there.

    We're glad you're here and interested in hearing your comments.

    -Chuck


  47. BB or anybody else,
    When comparing the Talon SS to the Benjamin Marauder, which is better with regards to accuracy and velocity? I know there are a lot more factors to these guns such as price, weight, etc. But I wanted to know which one is more accurate or more powerful in .22 caliber shooting a jsb diabolo exact pellet.
    Tim




  48. I have a Blizzard and am getting quarter size groups at 50 yards. Really a nice rifle to shoot. If I were a bit better the groups could be smaller I believe. It has good power and works well. Anything I can do to make it even better?


  49. Kevin,

    The Crosman45 is a full size break barrel rifle…nice full cut stock..it says "Crosman45" on top of the rifle. sorry for the delay in answering your question.


  50. Anonymous,

    I don't have a clue what a Crosman45 break barrel springer is. Please ask your question in the comments under the most recent article that B.B. has written and maybe some of the other airgunners can help. Here's a link that will always take you to the most recent article that B.B. has written (he writes a new article everyday, Monday-Friday):

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

    kevin


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