P-08 BB pistol from Umarex: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Umarex P98 CO2 BB pistol
The new Umarex P-08 BB pistol is a stunning copy of the firearm.

When I first saw this gun at the 2013 SHOT Show, it changed my outlook on the show altogether. Up to that point, I was angry because the show had changed so much. Media Day, the day before the show opens and where members of the media are invited to shoot all the new firearms (and airguns!) at a public range in Boulder City, had tightened up because of past abuses, and it now took an invite from a booth holder to attend. Media credentials, alone, were not enough.

Besides that, the show planners did away with the gold carpet in the two large display halls that I have used for reference and navigation for the past 17 years. Now, the show resembled a bazaar in Mumbai, with crowded aisles and tall structures that limit the view of the surrounding countryside. Suddenly, you’re 5 years old and everything around you is tall, confusing and moving too fast.

Then I saw IT in the Umarex booth. I was being shown the new products by one of their reps and the guy said, “Oh, yeah. They also have a new replica of some vintage gun.” My heart leapt within my chest. Would this be the year that they built IT? Would this be the year of the German Luger?

Sure enough, there it was — displayed for all to see. Only it’s NOT a German Luger — or a Luger of any kind. Because, you see, Stoeger purchased the rights to the Luger name back in the 1920s, so the only pistol that can bear that name legally has to be sold by them.

That’s okay, though, because what we know as the Luger was never called that, anyway — except by us. What the Germans called it was the Pistol ’08, or P-08. It was standardized (not invented) in 1908 for the German army; and because they were preparing for war at that time, they also nicknamed it the para bellum, which is Latin for “prepare for war.” Hence, the name Parabellum that’s come down to us through history. The firearm is chambered for many different pistol rounds, including a 7.63mm bottlenecked cartridge the Swiss favored and also the .45 ACP for American trials. But by far the most popular chambering is the 9x19mm cartridge that’s also called the 9mm Parabellum (and, yes, the 9mm Luger). Is this all beginning to make some sense?

This iconic German selbstlader (self-loader or autoloader) is as recognizable throughout the world by its very shape as the Broomhandle Mauser and the Colt Single Action Army revolver. It’s the one handgun that, when anyone picks it up for the first time, makes them paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, “Now, THAT’S a gun!”

The P-08 is arguably the most ergonomic handgun ever made. Many companies, like Ruger, copied it for their own guns. And, because it’s chambered for the soft-recoiling 9x19mm cartridge, it’s extremely mild to shoot. Even though the gun is designed for ammunition that’s loaded well above today’s standard 9x19mm loads, its toggle-link bolt and recoiling barrel extension absorb so much recoil that it’s a thoroughly enjoyable handgun to shoot. I know, because I owned one and shot hundreds of hot rounds in it!

But I’m not alone in admiring the P-08. Thousands of shooters around the world feel exactly as I do about the gun. Which is why, when Umarex began making their incredible replica pellet pistols and BB guns years ago, the cry went up to build a P-08. The demand was there from the beginning, but, alas, the dream went unfulfilled. Gun after replica gun came out of Amberg, but no P-08. And people wrote me, asking why. The two handguns I’m asked for more than any others are this one and the Single Action Army.

Well, the wait is over. The Umarex P-08 BB pistol is finally here!

The gun
The P-08 BB pistol is all metal on the outside and is pleasingly cold to the touch when you pick it up. A 29.3-oz. unloaded weight gives good heft in the hand without being heavy. The power comes from a standard 12-gram CO2 cartridge stored in the grip. The spring-loaded BB magazine holds 21 Umarex Precision steel BBs. The stick magazine drops free by pressing the contoured round button on the left sight of the grip.

Umarex P-08 CO2 BB pistol magazine
The 21-shot stick magazine drops free of the gun with the push of a button.

I’m testing serial number 12A00004, which tells you it’s an early production gun and you probably have zero chance of buying this one after I’m finished because it’s on loan directly from Umarex. In other words, the production guns aren’t quite here yet. I think this may even be the same gun I saw at the SHOT Show.

The grip panels are black plastic, which is in keeping with later P-08 “Black Widow” firearms. Nothing looks or feels out-of-place. The right grip panel pops off to reveal the CO2 chamber, and the tensioning screw is hidden by the bottom of the magazine that’s molded to appear like the bottom of the firearm mag.

Umarex P-08 CO2 BB pistol CO2 compartment
The right grip panel pops off to install the CO2 cartridge. The cap of the magazine covers the piercing screw.

Let’s talk about that molding for a minute. Umarex has been perfecting their casting processes over the years, and they have arrived at the point where I found it difficult to believe that the toggle link did not move when I examined the gun at SHOT. The pieces are so well-defined and appear to be awaiting a pull upwards on the toggle “ears” (the two large round knobs at the top rear of the pistol) that I fiddled with the gun for several minutes — trying to get it to “work.” It fooled me completely.

I heard disparaging remarks from some readers that if the toggle doesn’t work, the gun is worthless, or words to that effect, but do you think we’re asking too much? This is a not a $250 pellet replica pistol. It’s a $60 BB gun — or at least it will be somewhere near that number. It has the weight and balance of the firearm, as well as the ergonomics and wide trigger blade. Isn’t that enough for what they’re asking? Right now, I have to say that it is for me.

The controls that do work are the mag release, as already described, and the safety, which is identical to the one on the firearm. Even the word secured (gesichert) is written in German, as on the prototype firearm it copies.

Umarex P-O8 CO2 BB pistol safety
The safety is in the same place and has the same German word as on the firearm.

The sights on a short-barreled P-08 firearm are fixed, and the rear notch is integral with the rear part of the toggle link. So, when the gun fires, the rear sight moves as the toggle moves. On the firearm, the front sight, which is attached to the barrel, also moves, because the barrel extension does move back when the toggle link breech is opened. But on the BB pistol, neither sight moves because both the barrel and the toggle link are fixed in place.

The trigger is not adjustable and operates in the double-action mode, only. You’ll have to learn how to control a longer, heavier trigger-pull.

Velocity is supposed to be around 410 f.p.s., which is quite brisk for a BB gun. You’ll definitely want a good backstop when you shoot this air pistol, and everyone in the vicinity will have to wear safety glasses for protection from rebounds.

Other than that, this pistol is what it is — a super ergonomic BB pistol (by copying the P-08 profile exactly) with a lot of realism. I hope it shoots accurately because this is definitely an interesting BB gun.

Umarex P-O8 CO2 BB pistol
This is the first P-08 BB pistol to hit the market. The realism is remarkable.

When can we expect to see it?
I don’t know just when the P-08 will hit the U.S. market, but I would hope it will be by early summer. I will keep an eye out for it.

57 Responses to “P-08 BB pistol from Umarex: Part 1”

  • NRS Says:

    I want one.

    Hello, is anyone listening? I want one!

    Come one, someone has to be able to help me.

    I WANT ONE!

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      NRS,

      I’m listening. You will be able to get one soon.

      B.B.

    • stlwrkr Says:

      purchased this P 08 and also the C96 Broomhandle, mauser replica, as usual from umarex, very nice, quality and finish, nice balance and weight and price is remarkable, approx. $90.00 in Canada, half of that in the US, order both , you wont be disappointed, I ordered from Pyramid air, approx. 11 guns in collection, a few more to buy, Enjoy

  • Wulfraed Says:

    the show resembled a bizarre in Mumbai,

    While the show may have been bizarre, I suspect you meant that it was a bazaar.

  • chasblock Says:

    Is there anyone that doesn’t like the P-08? I think it was in “Saving Private Ryan”, or perhaps another famous WWII war movie where one of the soldiers cops a “Luger” which he had been lusting for, and then proceeds to accidentally shoot himself with it.

    I sure do hope this gun is accurate. Even though it’s a smooth bore BB gun, one of them may have to find a home in my gun rack.

  • dangerdongle Says:

    I give up. Apparently pellet pistols are out of vogue-all the neat replicas are smoothbores. I really don’t know what to do with a bb gun-shooting at largish objects close up gets real boring real fast.
    This one may be enough to push me over to the spray-and-pray crowd. Urgh.

    • se mn airgunner Says:

      I can understand how you feel, but over time I have come to prefer action pistols w BBs. Their magazines tend to hold more ammo, they are quicker to refill, and changing out mags is more realistic with their drop out style. And if you commit yourself to shoot shorter distances, just reduce the size of your target for additional challenge. When I rip off 100 bbs at 15 feet I get a feeling of satisfaction as I tear out a hole in the middle of my target. I guess I’m like the guy in the Pyramydair commercial…..”MOM! MORE SODA!”

    • Matt61 Says:

      Try instinct shooting. There is a standard of accuracy that can satisfy without requiring very tight groups, and this is probably how the original pistol was used anyway.

      Matt61

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Designing a linear magazine for feeding pellets is more difficult than one for spherical BBs.

      Also, I think much of the drive for the BB models is spin-off from the AirSoft industry — fit a narrower barrel, narrow down the magazine, remove hop-up device, and one has a new pistol. And AirSoft is the driver the for the realistic models.

      Though I agree — this one needs blow-back…

  • Michael Says:

    B.B.,

    I hope this is as accurate as the Umarex Makarov, but even if it isn’t, I expect it to be one of the very rare instances, like the Umarex Walther PPK/s, when inaccuracy does not slow sales. This lacks the Walther’s blowback and field strip benefits; however, so who knows?

    By Colt Single Action Army I assume you mean the 1860, not the 1875, although if Umarex came out with both, I would buy both! While I’m at it, the folks at Umarex (and Europeans are still more into Old West firearms than Americans are these days) should add the Remington Navy. What kind of package would THAT be? Open the box, pull out a large, hard-sided pistol case, and open it to reveal Colt 1860 and 1875 Army models and a Remington Navy! Ahhh! It’s too much to even imagine without being overwhelmed.

    Back to the Luger. Given the narrow dimensions of that gun, fitting a revolving pellet mechanism in it would be tough going. As a pellet gun, it would have to be a break-action single shot. However, do-able version could be a .177 lead ball true semi-auto with blowback! In the long-barreled version, with rifling and an adjustable rear sight, that could no doubt hit a target at 10 meters.

    But THIS BB version isn’t in my imagination. One of these will be in my hands soon enough. No more longing for an American Luger made out of unobtainium, fragile Schimel, or Wamo Kruger!

    I cannot wait for your Part 2, 3, 4, and 5 on this BB gun!

    Michael

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Michael,

      The Single Action Army is the 1873. The 1860 is the Colt Army model. It is cap and ball, while the 1873 is a cartridge gun.

      I do think they have to put the longer 1860 grip on the 1873 to house the CO2 cartridge, though. When I was a stunt gunfighter at a western amusement park, several guys were installing the 1860n grip frame on their 1873s, because the longer handle felt better.

      B.B.

  • Michael Says:

    B.B.,

    This is off-topic, but I’d like your opinion on this.

    I’ve got a BSA Meteor MK 4 in cosmetically poor but mechanically excellent condition (spring-lube tune, heavy but crisp single stage trigger). I have not tested it for velocity, but it shoots through 1 1/2 inches of a phone book at point blank range. Finally, I like its light, slim feel but adult length, so if it’s accurate (don’t know yet), it’ll be a keeper.

    I know Meteors are as common as dirt, but it IS a vintage English airgun after all. What is your opinion of my refinishing the stock and rebluing the action? A travesty or reasonable for a vintage airgun made in huge numbers?

    Michael

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Michael,

      I think you have the perfect candidate for a restoration job. The commonality of the gun means there is no value to lose by refinishing. And you already like the gun, so why not make it your own?

      B.B.

      • Michael Says:

        B.B.,

        Thanks! That was what I was hoping you say. Thanks much for the encouragement.

        I’ll test accuracy in my basement, and if it pans out, sandpaper and tung oil here I come!

        Michael

        • goatboy Says:

          If you love that Meteor, Try and find a Mercury. I picked one up thinking the parts (mainly the barrel) were interchangeable with each other, but Mercury’s and Airsporters are more suited for that. Just like the Meteor it’s a lovely rifle and a tad more powerful, but with 10 ft/lb on your Meteor when referbed you’ll be totally enamoured with it just as i am with mine.

          Word of advice though Michael, on a lot of older BSA’s the stock nuts can push the forks apart from the breech and leave you with a little side play in your barrel. Good luck and have fun with it old chum.

          TTFN best wishes, wing commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe

          • Michael Says:

            I removed the action to see if there were anything I could do to adjust the trigger weight. All I found was a tiny screw that adjusts travel length. After I put the action back in the stock, I noticed that the breech block is TIGHTER in the forks than before!

            Interesting . . .

            Also, I need to look at the serial number prefix to be certain, but I now believe it is a Mark II, not a Mark IV.

            I also read somewhere online that the metal finish is an enamel, not bluing. I don’t know enough about bluing to tell, although it does look a bit less refined finish-wise than my HW30s.

            If it IS a form of paint, I’m inclined to strip it and then blue the action. If I’m going to dress this gun up, I’ll have to address the metal finish, because it is in rough shape with some speckling and even a few bare patches.

            It strikes me as being pretty hot, perhaps even souped up for more power than the 575-625 fps. I’ve read these were supposed to achieve. My guess is closer to 700 fps with the Hobbies and CPLs I’ve used in it. There is a quick, solid thump but no vibration or twang at all. I did notice a thin layer of black tar on the spring when I peered through the slot, which explains the smoothness.

            Of course, I still must test its accuracy. If it can’t hit the broad side of a barn, then I’ll not waste time on it.

            Michael

            • Michael Says:

              Well, I just shot it a bit in the basement and at 20 feet, shooting standing offhand with no rest, no sights on the gun, just trying to eyeball down the top of the barrel, 10 shots fit in just a hair under 1 3/4 inches.

              I believe that at 10 meters off a bench, with open sights, I could manage 10 shots in 3/4 of an inch, with a small scope, 1/2 inch. So I believe the gun is more accurate than I am and deserves to be refinished.

              That trigger sure is heavy, though. Crisp, but HEAVY. Kinda like breaking a glass rod . . . that’s an inch thick!

              Michael

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    I’ve practically sworn that I would never have another CO2 BB gun — you’re testing my integrity!

    • Michael Says:

      Resistance is fultile, LOL.

      Swearing not to purchase another CO2 airgun again is pure folly right now. I think we are experiencing a second golden age of the CO2 airgun, pistols and submachines gun in particular. Someday folks might look back at the early ‘teens and consider it the best carbon dioxide era since the 1970s.

      Michael

      • J-F Says:

        I think you’re right, just look at what is available to the airsoft market with CO2 cartridges, most of these can be made to shoot steel BB’s.
        I want them all!!!

        J-F

  • Desertdweller Says:

    BB,

    For $60, this will probably find a home in my collection, along with a Makarov. An operating toggle mechanism would be a bit much to expect at that price.

    Personally, I would rather pay twice that amount and have the toggle work.

    Someday, someone might figure out how to stack pellets in a stick magazine. Then we could have our semi-auto pellet pistols. Michael’s idea of lead balls and a rifled barrel might be a good alternative.

    Les

    • Michael Says:

      Les,

      It would work well, if only someone would make it!

      I have a Gamo Auto 45 that is modeled after a Glock, and it’s all-metal, no blowback, but it’s ALMOST semi-auto as the trigger cocks the gun and advances lead balls from the internal 10 shot magazine. It has a rifled barrel, and I can shoot 2 1/2 inch groups at 10 meters from a rested, two-hand (parallel thumbs to compensate for the heavy trigger) position, if I give it at least 30 seconds between shots to warm up a bit.

      It also can be shot one at a time with skirted pellets. With CPLs at 10 meters, it can do 1 3/4 inch groups.

      Michael

  • Rob Says:

    B.B.
    You wrote that you heard (quote): “disparaging remarks from some readers that if the toggle doesn’t work, the gun is worthless, or words to that effect,…”. Those readers may be quite right. If you want to see a real replica of the Luger P08 in both 4.5 and 6mm BB calibers check the KWC 2013 Product Catalogue (https://www.box.com/s/3qpik8ar056o12tp50z5). The KWC P08 is a blowback pistol with a fully operating toggle mechanism, a full size drop out magazine and claimed accuracy of a quarter at 10m. Another classic is the Mauser C96 Broomhandle in their catalogue. There is a number of other nice replicas in the KWC catalogue like, for example, the blowback Makarov 4.5 and 6mm. Nowadays, KWC is much ahead of Umarex in manufacturing great replicas (e.g. the Colt 1911A1 (Witness), the Sig Sauer P226 X-Five, the Mini Uzi etc).

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Rob,

      I seny that link to Pyramyd Air’s purchasing department & asked if they’d be ordering the 2 pistols.

      Edith

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Rob,

      Yes, those are wonderful replica guns, all right. But KWC isn’t playing the game. They continue to sell their guns through airsoft channels instead of airgun channels, and in the U.S, the distinction is important. If KWC doesn’t link up with airgun dealers and sell their steel BB guns to airgun dealers through airgun channels, they won’t get far.

      This is why the SHOT Show is so important. Foreign manufacturers have to learn the American market to penetrate it. Every year I see groups of Chinese businesspeople wandering the aisles, looking like small herds of deer in the headlights. They haven’t got a clue how to connect with those establishments that will actually buy their wares.

      For years the Belgian firm of Rutten made the same mistake. They thought that “if we build it, they will come…” but nobody did. Oh, a couple small hobby dealers bought a few guns and tried to resell them, but until Rutten partnered with Browning, who understands the American market and already has good distribution, nobody heard of them.

      KWC isn’t the first company to make this mistake, either. Others have tried and failed before, then hooked up with an established distributor like Gamo, and watched their guns take off in this country.

      Until that happens, they will keep making wonderful airguns and wondering why only a few Americans buy them, when they see our burgeoning market.

      B.B.

      • Desertdweller Says:

        BB,

        I agree that the airsoft buyers and the airgun buyers are two distinct markets.

        Yesterday, I took my grandson Nicky to the range. A group of people were already there, shooting pistols at short range. One guy asked me if it was OK for 10 year old Nicky to try shooting his .38 revolver.

        Nicky wanted the gun owner to shoot the first shot, so he could hear how loud it would be (he was already wearing ear and eye protection). The guy fired one shot, then cautioned Nicky how to keep his fingers out of the way from the gas blast from the front of the cylinder.

        Nicky had shot powder burners before, but not pistols. He has had experience shooting my CO2 PPK.
        He hit the bullseye on the first shot, and was not intimidated at all by the experience.

        A woman in the group had heard me saying we were there to shoot air guns. She asked me if we were going to shoot airsoft guns. I told her no, we were shooting pellet guns. I added that I avoid airsoft guns, as youngsters can learn bad habits in one afternoon of shooting airsoft guns that can undo months of training with “real” guns.

        It is my admittedly limited experience that most air gunners would agree with that. Same for paintball “guns”. If a builder of airsoft or paintball “guns” wants to break into the air gun market, he needs to aim his efforts specifically at that market.

        In my opinion, airsoft and paintball “guns” are toys for gamers. Air guns are weapons for gunners.

        Les

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Les,

          Yes, these are two distinct markets in the U.S., but airsoft manufacturers don’t get it. They view the guns they make as “real”, because in their frame of reference, they are as real as anything they can deal with. But of course in the U.S. we have firearms, so we tend to put airguns and airsoft guns into entirely different categories.

          That is bad, because many people think airguns and especially airsoft guns, as you point out, are somehow different than firearms — that they call “real” guns — so they don’t respect them to the same extent. When that happens, accidents are set to happen.

          Gaming is the ultimate expression of this lack of respect. Gaming is based on the paintball industry, who take special care to never refer to their launchers as guns. They call them markers. But airsoft has blurred the distinction between lethal firearms and non-lethal airsoft guns to such an extent that people have lost sight of the proper handling procedures for anything that resembles a firearm. It’s funny right up to the point that someone injures or kills someone else and then pleads, “I didn’t know…”

          I know that serious airsoft gamers are respectful of their guns, but they aren’t the problem. The problem is the kid who sees them in action and tries to mimic what he sees, much the same as a young man doing burnouts in his neighborhood with a street-legal Mustang is living the NASCAR fantasy.

          B.B.

          • Michael Says:

            B.B.,

            What’s the expression? “Yeah, it’s all fun and laughs, until somebody loses an eye.”

            I’ve watched neighborhood preteens shooting airsoft guns at pop cans (cool) and casually waving the muzzles around (not cool) and even sometimes pointing these same airsoft guns, BETWEEN SHOTS, at each other (the very definition of not at all cool)!

            They’re not my kids, so I put it very nicely, but I said to them, “Even Nerf guns can hurt somebody if it hits ‘em in the eye. Never forget this: all guns are loaded all of the time, and never point a gun at anything you wouldn’t mind losing forever.” They laughed.

            {Sigh.}

            Michael

      • J-F Says:

        Thanks for the explanation, I’ve been wondering why we couldn’t get some of these guns for a long time.

        But I don’t understand how they could NOT understand this? Just look at the success of the Tanfoglio Witness 1911, GSG 92 and SIG P226 from Cybergun (isn’t cybergun and KWC the same company?) and they should know that there’s a market for these IF they can reach to us airgunners.
        I want that blowback Mauser BAD (and the S&W M&P too and the 1911 racegun and the blowback Makarov and the Tokarev and…)

        J-F

        • Wulfraed Says:

          Cybergun is a French company — can’t speak for whether they manufacture their products or are only a distributor. I’d put them into a similar class as Umarex — licensing name rights from firearm makers to produce air guns (though if I understand it, Umarex has actually purchased some of the firearm companies it handles).

          KWC is a distinctly oriental maker.

      • kevin Says:

        This is very,very interesting.

        Makes perfect sense and explains a lot.

        kevin

  • goatboy Says:

    As lovely as it looks and feels i would gladly pay the extra for the blow back and maybe some rifling, but i haven’t read parts 2 and 3 yet. So lets just see what crawls out the woodwork when put through it’s paces.

    TTFN

    Toodle pip, wing commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe

  • Matt61 Says:

    High drama at the gun show. I love it. I can even sort of identify. My love for all of my guns has changed from the initial intoxication to a mature golden glow.

    How interesting about the Luger. So is Stoeger making any Lugers? If not, that is pretty tight for them to hang onto the name in that suppressive fashion. I thought Kevin had told me that the Ruger Mark II pistols had a grip angle and some other features borrowed from the 1911. But the Mk II does seem to look like a Luger. Did Ruger combine the designs somehow? My memory is failing me on how the Luger fared in the U.S. army pistol trials. What a match-up of ultimate pistols between that and the 1911. I seem to recall that it was railroaded out for nationalistic reasons. You can’t regret choosing the 1911, but it would be interesting to know what actually happened. And with all the strengths of the Luger, what led to its replacement? The 1938 which succeeded it had some good features like its double action, but some models like for the West German police have been heavily maligned. And how does the Luger solve the big problem of recoil operation? John Browning’s slide action was highly brilliant and seems to have influenced all modern handguns. I have a sense that the Luger’s action was based on its “toggle” but have never understood that.

    So Diane Feinstein was mayor of San Francisco. That explains the policy I heard of some years ago to ban all handgun possession within the city limits. That was too much even for that city. But for whatever reason it seems that criminality in that city has changed since the days of the Karl Maldon series Streets of San Francisco which made the city sound out of control. I had heard about Feinstein’s concealed carry license, but not about the two guns. Well, it’s recommended to carry a back-up. :-) Okay, Wulfraed, so how do you know about Feinstein’s two guns? :-) A conspiracy theorist would say that you must be highly placed based on all the hidden knowledge you have about a range of things.

    Victor, thanks for your thoughts on my Dad’s shooting. You may not know what you’re taking on. Yes, getting him to use the rear sight was a big achievement. As for looking at the target rather than the front sight, I would say definitely yes, since he is obsessed with getting bullseyes even though they are few and far between. Given how far off the target he is, I don’t think this subtlety is really the problem. I’m much more inclined to think it is follow-through. I told him about this, and his response was, “But the bullet has already left the gun.” I tell him it’s exactly like tennis where you follow through after the ball has left the racquet. His response to that is: “But it’s not tennis.”(!!!) Unfortunately, if he doesn’t understand or like something it is not his way to accept. He will fight and resist and try his own way under the heading of being creative. Well, the apple doesn’t fall that far from the tree since it took me so long to accept the fundamentals of the trigger squeeze and the surprise break.

    The only other factor is his preference for heavier shooting guns. He likes the .22 magnum cylinder in the Single Six although he doesn’t shoot demonstrably better with it than the LR. And he prefers the 1911 which he does shoot a lot better. His only explanation is something about it feeling better balanced and more solid in the hand. I’m inclined to think that this is purely a matter of perception. He was calling himself a “Winchester man” until he burned his hand on the barrel of my 1894, and that was the end of that gun. So there’s a lot to work on with him. But in his favor is a seemingly bottomless desire to outshoot me or get himself into a position where he can argue that he has…

    Matt61

    • Wulfraed Says:

      How interesting about the Luger. So is Stoeger making any Lugers? If not, that is pretty tight for them to hang onto the name in that suppressive fashion.

      In the late 60s early 70s they made a .22LR blowback with the Luger name on it — but it did not use the moving barrel and side-plate system; just the toggle link to do the initial cocking. (And a blood-thirsty ejector — if you are field-stripping and have a finger on the face of the bolt and press backwards, the ejector tends to have a chisel edge that snags the tip of the finger)

      The Ruger standard model (from the original, not just the Mk-II or Mk-III) were designed with the same grip frame angle, and similar barrel profile. The receiver however is different — a cylinder rather than a box.

      The Ruger 22/45 is the standard upper with a 1911 grip angle.

      I have a sense that the Luger’s action was based on its “toggle” but have never understood that.

      If I understood some articles, the Parabellum has a locked breech in which the barrel slides backwards a fraction of an inch at the start of recoil, moving with the toggle bolt. Then something (the side plate?) disengages the barrel from the bolt, allowing the toggle to extract and eject the empty case.

      Okay, Wulfraed, so how do you know about Feinstein’s two guns? :-) A conspiracy theorist would say that you must be highly placed based on all the hidden knowledge you have about a range of things.

      o/~ Do you now the way to San Jose o/~

      I was living in Sunnyvale at the time — some 30 odd miles south of SF. Since we were also fighting a state proposal at the time, CRPA and various groups reported on anything they could find.

      His only explanation is something about it feeling better balanced and more solid in the hand

      Well, if the comparison is revolvers… Most semi-autos have a lower bore line making for a more straight-back recoil than the higher pivoting recoil of the revolver. Except for that odd design that came out recently where the barrel is located below the cylinder pin.
      http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/chiappa-rhino-revolver-review/

    • Victor Says:

      Matt61,

      As I’ve mentioned before to you, half of the equation is being teachable. However, sometimes we choose to learn things for ourselves by effective reinventing the wheel. There are times when this approach makes the learning of a lesson life-long. That’s OK. But both the student and the teacher need to be aware of what they are dealing with so that neither wastes the others time. Well, in cases like this, the approach needs to be modified a bit.

      Just to clarify what I meant by not looking at the target. You have to align both sights AND not look at the target. When coaching pistol shooters one-on-one and in person, I’ve seen remarkable improvements from just this one detail. Lots of people have a natural tendency to want to look at the target. It just makes sense to them. The concept of not looking at the target doesn’t make sense to them.

      But you really can’t see two things that are at two distances at the same time. So when you take your eyes off of the sights (front and rear) to see the target, you automatically lose the ability to see, or maintain, sight alignment. Even worse, your aim can, and often does, drift. This automatically makes it nearly impossible to follow-through, and so you have worse-case flinching.

      Victor

      Victor

  • qwestmark Says:

    I was overjoyed to hear about a luger replica. I was then dismayed to find it was not blowback. A major appeal of the luger is the knee action of the toggle. Now I fear i may have to go airsoft to get it. Does umarex just not get it?

  • J-F Says:

    I think you can put me on the list of those who will buy one. Like I said before we don’t have access to those as a firearm here and killing empty cans with those is so much fun I’m surprised it’s still legal ;-)
    Of course blowback would be better but I can live with it like that.

    J-F

  • dangerdongle Says:

    I’m going to try this one more time…for whatever reason my previous two attempts at responding to Wulfraed didn’t post.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Beretta_CX4_177_magazine/2011

    This looks to me like something that could be adapted to a wide range of pistols.

  • dangerdongle Says:

    I’m going to try this one more time…for whatever reason my response to Wulfraed didn’t post-twice!

    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Beretta_CX4_177_magazine/2011

    That looks to me like something that could be adapted to a wide range of pistols.

  • Rob Says:

    I may be wrong, but as a speaker of one of the Latin languages (Spanish), the Prefix “Para” in the context of Para bellum would indicate “for war” rather than “prepare for war”. as I have noticed that is frequently referred to in the English language.

  • Mark Says:

    Hi

    I emailed\requested UMAREX\KWC\CYBERGUN in order that they make a Full metal ,CO2 , blowback , 4.5mm Steel BBs replica of the Ultra Cool MAUSER C96 Automatic Handgun a couples of years ago
    without receiving any kind of reply \ respond

    but recently , i discovered on a russian website , along with the P08 , the Mauser C96!!!
    I got immediatelly excited and emailed them , but agains , received NO Reply about it

    I wonder if you have heard or tested this CO2 4.5mm MAUSER C96 ?
    Please , could you contact me directly at my email address : Mark_Farnsworth@hotmail.com

    I need a light of hope about this special gun for me…

    Waiting for your quick\ ASAP email\reply\updates :)

    Mark

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Mark,

      I don’t email directly. I reply here, so everyone can see the same information.

      We discussed this sort of thing (the C96 Mauser) in this blog several days ago. Many times what you see on the internet isn’t true. It’s put there to gauge interest, or just as a cruel joke.

      That C96 may exist, or it may not. But you can be sure of this, if it does exist, Umarex knows about it and if they haven’t done anything about it, there is a very good reason. They look at everything new at the IWA show in Germany, which is like the SHOT Show for the rest of the world. If the Russians have something real, they will take it there.

      I mentioned a few days ago that a Broomhandle Mauser was one of the guns people are asking for — along with a Colt Single Action Army revolver. But as of this time, neither of these has been made into a BB gun or pellet pistol.

      B.B.

  • Mark Says:

    Hi B.B.

    Im sure cybergun already done the prototypes
    …HERE , i just been able to found the Russian website link I told you today :

    http://flobertall.com.ua/index.php?categoryID=642&category_slug=kwc-cybergun-

    As for the Colt Single action army , they already exist in Awesome Quality (full metal) and HIGH FPS performance as the old HAHN 45 and Crosman SA6

    I have two set of them and really enjoy them

    anyway , I hope that we will receive the C96 Mauser real soon here in North America ;)

    • J-F Says:

      I also went there and found those a while ago and have written to these guys several times about a bunch of what they have available (lots of interesting stuff for sale there) and if these guns are indeed available they’re not selling them to us. They didn’t bother replying to any of my inquiries.

      Why aren’t we seeing them here? Could it be a reliability issue? Maybe it has something to do with the rights to the name and the lawsuits that could follow?

      I’m pretty sure if there’s a way to get these here PyramydAir will get them for us, don’t worry about it.

      J-F

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