Is that all there is?

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Today’s report is a fun one. The idea came from blog reader John, who said this:

“I’m starting to think we have reached the very end of what is possible with airguns. Looks like the average high end of what they can do is 1000-1200 fps. I’m seeing most guns look the same, function the same, even fire practically identical to every other gun there is. In fact I haven’t seen very many new offerings in the airgun market. So, I’m wondering, is this it? Have they reached the edge of the envelope of what can be done now? About the only guns that have come out that really got a rise out of me are the new Condor SS, the MK-177 and the MSR77. Other than that I have not seen one gun that wouldn’t get lost in my armory.”

I had to smile when I read that because it reminded me so much of something someone else once said:

“It may be assumed, therefore, that the spring-air design has about reached the perfection of its form. However, combination systems utilizing the good spring-air characteristics of a single cocking stroke, combined with an air storage chamber giving the good release characteristics of the pneumatic type, offer considerable possibilities for future development, as the interest in these arms and their form of shooting increases.”

That last one is a quote from W.H.B. Smith’s book Smith’s Standard Encyclopedia of Gas, Air and Spring Guns of the World, published in 1957. The mechanism Smith alludes to is what we now call the single-stroke mechanism, which would be introduced by Walther several years after he wrote about it. He doesn’t say it will be more powerful — just easier to cock and as smooth-shooting as any pneumatic.

What is progress?
The question we have to answer before we can make any sense out of all of this is what makes an airgun “better?” What does “better” mean?

Does an airgun have to shoot faster to be better? In 1957, the upper limit for a straight airgun (i.e., one that did not rely on a chemical explosion to boost velocity, like the Weihrauch EL54 ether-injected gun) was somewhere in the low 700s. Smith thought they had reached the limits of possibility at that speed. Fifteen years later, 800 f.p.s. was the magic number. There were four famous models in the 1970s that could do 800 or just a little better — Diana 45, BSF S55/S70, HW 35 and the fastest of all…FWB 124. The HW 35 was a sometimes thing that varied gun by gun. Most of them were just below 800 f.p.s.

The rise of velocity
Then, in 1982, the R1/HW80 hit the market at 940 f.p.s. and the horsepower race was on! Today, we’ve reached around 1,350 f.p.s., with lightweight lead-free pellets boosting that number just a little and ad copy boosting it a little more — up to 1,650 f.p.s. That’s a velocity that no spring gun has ever achieved without a chemical explosion. But it still  doesn’t answer the basic question: Is velocity the single criteria determining the “goodness” of an airgun?

Other criteria
Most people would say no after some consideration. Things like smoothness of the shot cycle, accuracy, ease of cocking, great triggers and perhaps some other things are also part of what makes airguns what they are. And these things are in constant flux. One example I can give is the new Walther LGV breakbarrel rifle. It cocks smoother and shoots better than many tuned air rifles. It’s very accurate, as we’ve seen in our tests, and offers a superb package of handling, weight and styling. It isn’t as fast as the mega-magnums, but all it takes is one shot to know it’s a superior air rifle. And it was launched in 2012! So from that standpoint, good airguns are still being made.

I can cite other examples of fine airguns that have emerged in the recent past — the TX200 in the late 1980s, the Talon SS in 2001, the Condor in 2004, the Benjamin Discovery in 2007, the Benjamin Marauder in 2009 and the Bronco in 2009. And this totally disregards the ergonomic advancements made by certain 10-meter target guns.

From the standpoint of refinement and innovation, airguns are continually improving. Triggers get better, powerplants get smoother, sights improve and accuracy increases all the time. But you won’t see it if you don’t look at the entire market. If you only concentrate on lower-priced guns or only the guns of one powerplant type, or if your sole criteria for advancement is velocity, then the picture becomes skewed.

Taking the same viewpoint, hybrid cars aren’t advancing, either, because the Toyota Prius has remained pretty much what it was when it was launched in 1997. The Tesla car that has all the big auto manufacturers so concerned isn’t seriously regarded, yet, because it has a starting price above $62,000 — and who’s going to pay that for a hybrid car? But don’t give up on it. In 10 more years, there may be a host of affordable cars that get the same 80-100+ m.p.g. that the Tesla gets now.

Back in 1967, the electronic calculator we had in the San Jose State College Psychology Department cost over $2,500, and students had to schedule time on the machine in 30-minute blocks. We each had signed out mechanical Munroe calculators to do chi-square problems that were assigned as homework. In 1974, I went to Germany with a $100 pocket calculator to make monetary conversions. Three years later, gas stations were giving away calculators with a tank of gas. Today mechanical calculators are cheap — even the ones that do advanced math.

My point is that prices drop as popularity increases. Technology that was once reserved for only the best products becomes affordable as time passes. If it doesn’t seem to happen as fast with airguns as it does with cell phones, there’s a reason. Airguns sell in the tens of thousands; cell phones sell in the hundreds of millions. The scale of the market drives the speed at which advancements trickle down.

I think the trick is to go at this with imagination. What would you like to see, and how can it be accomplished? Don’t ask for the impossible, like a 1,000 foot-pound big bore that shoots half-inch groups at 100 yards, is filled from a bicycle pump and sells for $100. That’s impossible on a number of levels. But what about a real PCP rifle that retails for $150? Is it possible? I don’t know, but if it could be done and if the accuracy was equivalent to that of a good springer (inch groups at 35 yards), I think you would have something.

When I became serious about airguns for the second time in 1993, modern PCPs were still very new. The HW77 was a world standard and the TX200 was the fresh young interloper. The FWB 124 and 300S were still available brand new. In those days, spending $600 to get a used single-shot PCP was considered a good deal.

But don’t make the mistake of thinking that I’m an old-timer who has lost touch with reality. Yes, I’m old and yes, none of the guns just mentioned are as hot as they once were — except for the TX200 — but all that’s really changed are the names. The logic remains unchanged, and it will still be the same a century from now.

101 Responses to “Is that all there is?”

  • Kevin Says:

    BB, I will have to disagree with you when you said that “prices will drop as popularity increases”. The Baikal IZH46M is a very popular match pistol that used to be cheap, but now it’s over $500. Weihrauch airguns are also popular selling well year in, year out and their prices are not dropping…

    • kevin Says:

      Kevin,

      Welcome!

      kevin

      • Kevin Says:

        Thanks, kevin…two Kevins are better than one…The variety of airguns available in the United States is just amazing. Here in Costa Rica, the only brands that we have are: Gamo, Mendoza, Hatsan, Daisy, Crosman, Cometa, Industry Brand, and CZ… For the price of a Gamo, you can get a Weihrauch or Diana in the United States.

    • Victor Says:

      Kevin,

      I have to agree with you on this. A couple years ago i had intended to purchase an IZH46M. In fact, Placed an order, but it was out of stock, so I cancelled my order and bought something else. I waited and waited, and when it was finally in stock, the price had gone up and has gone up even more.

      At $400.00 I’d by it, but not at close to $600.00. I’d rather look into something even better.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Kevin,

      The IZH 46M is a remarkable pistol, but not the great technology I was referring to. It was introduced into this country at $400 and the price dropped off to under $200, where it remained for many years. The price is back up because of the weak dollar, but it is still a cheap 10 meter target pistol.

      B,B,

      • cowboystar dad Says:

        I think this is one of those rare cases where the item (IZH46) was underpriced for a number of years.
        This doesn’t mean that we are necessarily paying an over inflated price now.
        A few years back one particular Ilford B&W paper (photographic) that was very popular was underpriced compared to its competition from Kodak and Agfa. No one in the industry could understand why…it stayed the same price for 10 years.
        Suddenly it had a huge price increase (nearly double). Iflord’s management admitted that through ongoing accounting errors they were actually selling at a loss for a number of years.
        As B.B. say…for the price the Izzy is a still a bargain.

  • Slinging Lead Says:

    BB

    Great article, but at the risk of sounding like Mr. Knowitall, the Tesla is all electric, not a hybrid. So mpg does not apply. MPC (miles per charge) would be the consideration. Interestingly, they are built on a Lotus chassis. One of Mrs. Slinging Lead’s clients has one.

    • J-F Says:

      MotorTrend recently did a piece on the most revolutionary car between the Tesla and the Citroen DS.
      And the old French car won!
      Sure the Tesla has a electric engine but these have been around since cars have been around. It has a lot of stuff that have been around for a few years in other models, it’s like they’ve picked everything cool about other cars and put it in the Tesla.
      The DS on the other was packed with new things, some that are still in use today. It was the first production car to get disk brakes (the first car was the M-B Gullwing… not exactly production), the amazing hydraulic suspension (when grand-father stills raves about it, he now drives a Caddy with all the options available and would echange it in a minute for a DS in the same condition).
      Youtube it, it’s a great comparo.

      J-F

  • kevin Says:

    I like these big picture articles about airguns. Especially when they encourage a look into the future of airguns.

    In the old days the trend towards power of spring guns by manufacturers was hyped by importers in the USA (ARH & Beeman come to mind) and most consumers in those early days focused on fps. To the credit of importers like ARH & Beeman they also offered tuned guns that sacrificed power for “smoothness” but this was accomplished by a mask of tar/grease usually.

    To be fair, ARH & Beeman also sung the praises of smooth shooting medium powered sporting airguns like the HW50 and R8. These endorsements mostly fell on deaf ears. We want power America said. Beeman said, we have a R1. Beeman said we have an R10.

    This precedent of hyping power is proven by the attention and consumption in the early days of the four horseman framed the stage for manufacturers to feed the perceived insatiable desire for American’s to acquire the fastest (hopefully most powerful) airgun. Manufacturers still believe this and their ability to market (put huge fps numbers on a box and put huge numbers of their guns in big box stores) provides them with HOLLOW evidence that they’re right. I say HOLLOW because they may capture the immediate market but don’t get any return/repeat sales because their product is sold primarily because it has dominance of store presence, is hyped because of velocity and turns the consumer off when they realize that velocity doesn’t equate to accuracy and velocity numbers are created by shooting light weight pellets that don’t have anything to do with accuracy.

    You just lost a potential repeat consumer and more importantly you just lost his 3 best friends as potential consumers. You know, you can only burn people so many times with the best marketing hype before everyone knows your hype is hype.

    In the future…..I think there is a void for an airgun campaign that advertises “THIS IS THE MOST ACCURATE BREAK BARREL GUN TO ELIMINATE SMALL PESTS OUT TO 30 YARDS EVER MANUFACTURED”. In other words focus manufacturing to tighter tolerances and adequate energy rather than focus on an airgun that is designed for velocity first and price point second. Disregard velocity as a priority and instead focus on tight specs, right lubes and good barrels. I know, whole different business model but when the majority of your consumers realize they don’t need 1300 fps for their backyard target shooting or shooting of squirrels at 20 yards and like hitting their target with 12 fpe rather than missing at 1300 fps they’ll tell their friends. Word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool.

    kevin

    ps-I also think that if someone could provide a carbon fiber tank swap for pcp’s like we now have for propane tanks for our bar-b-que’s that they could make money. We, of course, would need an accurate $150 pcp first.

    • Pete in The Caribbean Says:

      Kevin,
      I am with you on this one. But I noticed that there is no mention of pellets. Your air rifle is only as good as the pellets you put in them. Sadly that has gone the way of air guns where everyone wants to put a Mach2 label on their box of pellets.
      A friend once walked into a gun store in Miami and asked for “a real powerful air rifle” at a good price. The clerk hands him an RWS 34P in 22cal, takes him in the back and throws a phone directory on the floor and fires a shot into it; then proceeds to show him how far the pellet had penetrated. Finally he says, you are getting all this power plus German quality. WOW! Sold.

      Pete

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Kevin,

      Nary a day goes by at Pyramyd Air without an email from a customer looking for power. I’m guessing the online chats and the phone calls have a similar theme. The manufacturers produce powerful guns because they sell, sell, sell. Selling a second or third gun to the same guy doesn’t appear to be anything to consider since there will always be the next guy who’s willing to buy powerful guns.

      I remember when we used to ship guns via UPS and had to declare what was in the package. The minute we said “airgun,” there was at least one person in line who’d pipe up and say they had the most powerful airgun made. Tom would immediately counter with, “You’ve got a Gamo.” That was always the case because these guys never heard of big bores or the Condor.

      People buy what they want, and they want power. It’s a widespread affliction based on what I see being sold in stores and online.

      While you and many of the other guys on this blog appear to have been inoculated against this illness, the vast majority of buyers are not. The same holds true for firearms. Why do you think those wrist-wrenching guns sell? They’re powerful. Men drive these sales, and manufacturers simply produce what they KNOW will sell.

      Edith

      • J-F Says:

        Hey don’t blame everything on our testosterone.
        It’s not like we’re the only ones always wanting a bigger engine/horsepower muscle car… hmmm OK bad example.
        It’s not like we want a bigger, badder pick-up and a lot of us are lifting our trucks are we? Oh we are, crap.
        Gas mower? Yup
        Buying a knife? No way we get the machete!
        Flash light? are you kidding, nothing short of a freaking light house will do! We don’t care if it eats 2 car batteries for 30 seconds of light LOL.

        Some of us do learn of our mistakes… sometimes.

        J-F

      • john Says:

        I remember those days. I had no idea that there was anything better than a .177 caliber and I thought my Crosman 1077 was a great gun. It still is in certain ways. then I started getting into break barrel guns and I discovered 1000 fps. I thought with 1000 fps a .177 caliber would be sufficient to hunt pests with. And it did work. My Ruger Redhawk is still a fine gun even after all these years. Imagine mt delight when I discovered the Gamo Whisper. A quite .177 caliber air rifle. At the same time I discovered PBA ammo so 1000 fps was magically 1200 fps. But that robbed me of the noise suppression and even though I didn’t really understand it at the time accuracy. Not long after that I made another new discovery…. .22 caliber airguns….and that .22 caliber I discovered was also….a shotgun! (Gamo Viper express). If you guessed I had to have it you were right. I figured 900 fps in .22 caliber was a seriously powerful gun. Indeed it finished off a toy plymouth prowler I had around. I was impressed. For a time I was thrilled with my new discoveries until I accidentally got a gun that was .22 caliber underlever and 950 fps. Somehow I never really liked that gun. It was a beautiful gun gun but i just did not like it. eventually I discovered the Discovery and from there I didn’t like my springers so much. It was smooth and powerful…and modifiable. And I did that. I got around 1000 fps in .22 with pcp accuracy. From there I was hooked. PCP was the way to go. I wanted more so I looked at airforce. 1450 in .22 and able to reach out to 100 yards. To date that is my top gun. As far as I am concerned that gun is the best they can do, so when I see “lesser guns” being touted as new when what I am seeing is repackaged older guns I wonder why they are so good. The biggest most obvious example is the Beretta SX4 shotgun. New and exciting? Not even close. It’s a relabeled Walther SG9000. I see all the springers from Crosman now…Optimus, Vantage, Nitro Venom, Fury, Phantom….All the same gun repackaged and relabled. Gamo…big cat, rocket, hornet….all the same gun more or less, just repackaged and renamed. See where I’m going? There are no really new guns being introduced. There is nothing new in any of these guns that is making me want to go buy more air rifles since I already have these guns that are all earlier models of what is out there that is still the equal of what is “new and exciting”. Tell me that this new gun has 1000 fps muzzle velocity. I shrug and pull out 5 guns from my rack just like it. Tell me it has a new and improved trigger. I’ll pull out 3 guns with a trigger just like it. Tout a new fiber optic sights. I’ll pull out 4 guns that already had that. Fine wood stock? I already have 15 guns with identical wood stocks. This is why I asked…..”Is that all there is?” So far I have not seen anything “new” except maybe a name or a name that is dusted off from an older discontinued gun put on a gun that I already have 10 of that are more or less like it. That makes it really hard to get enthused over a new gun with an old label that looks and works similar to 15 guns I already own and all that it has different is a complicated barrel latch. So, yes, I do get very disappointed and wonder if we have in fact reached the very limit of what an air gun can be?

      • kevin Says:

        Edith,

        Understood. Power sells. Has for decades. The first time buyer wants the most powerful.

        Nonetheless, I think an easily accurate airgun with good bluing and wood stock (let’s just say quality) would fill more than a niche market. The buzz that has been created by walthers new LGV introduction is minor evidence. If the stock style was more sporter traditional which resulted in about 1-1.5lbs being shed the future sales of the LGV might be a better benchmark. It will still be interesting to see what the success of the sales will be.

        The bronco would be my second piece of evidence for a mild, accurate shooter. Having a tough time thinking of another low-mid power springer sporter introduction lately. Thus, the void I was referring to.

        Yes, better fit, finish and a little more power translates into a much higher price point than the bronco but I sense the market is there. I could also be all wet.

        kevin

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    Technology is interesting.Sometimes for the good and also for the bad.I would of never thought the spring guns would turn into nitrogen piston guns.And then compare the pump guns to the now available PCP guns.And just think about a computer controlling a PCP gun(Benjamin Rouge).Hmm.Maybe in the future we will have electronic triggers instead of mechanical triggers then maybe you could program a delay into the actual firing of the gun when you pull the trigger.The gun would be settled down by the time the shot was fired.And maybe somebody will make a electronic baffle for the guns that would make sound waves to counter the sound in the baffle chamber(if I remember right they experimented with this on car mufflers at one time and I know there is alot different pressure thing going on there but that would be cool if it could work).As far as the bad goes.It seems that one advancement can create some kind of negative effect.What happens to all those battery’s from the electric cars when they are done.And also I forgot I really haven’t done the air soft thing.But those guns have alot of cool technology.I just hope that the airgun manufacturers keep advancing in the future.With the advancements going on in todays world almost anything can be done if there is somebody there to push the fact and keep somebody driving on.As… I say Time Will Tale…

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Gunfun1,

      Electronic triggers? Like the one on the Rogue?

      B.B.

      • Jim H. Says:

        “The gun would be settled down by the time the shot was fired.”

        OK, I’m a newbie so forgive my ignorance but is this possible? You guys have my brain spinning!
        Regards, Jim H.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Jim H.,

          Electronic triggers are at least 20 years old. They do exist, but are not any better than the best mechanical triggers. They are found mostly in target guns.

          B.B.

          • Victor Says:

            B.B.,

            I first started seeing electronic triggers for precision class guns (airgun and small-bore) in the mid-70′s, so it’s almost going on 40 years.

            Victor

          • Victor Says:

            B.B.,

            Yes, electronic triggers are not better than mechanical triggers. I would often hear that they could “almost” be compared with a Karl Kenyan trigger, which is what most world class shooters used.

            Victor

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          I guess what I was referring to was.Is if you don’t have a good smooth mechanical trigger that with a electric trigger maybe if when you pull the trigger it would help make the gun move less.And if there was a slight delay before the shot went off it would in a sense be somewhat of a surprise.I shoot my best shot when the trigger is pulled and the gun goes off when the trigger breaks without me feeling it.

          • Jim H. Says:

            That makes sense, Gunfun1. At first I thought you meant pull the trigger then have a programmed delay while the gun settled from the discharge and only then would the pellet leave the barrel. Could not wrap this old brain around how that would be possible. Thanks.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Can the Rouge trigger be programed in any way?

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Gunfun1,

          The Rogue trigger is adjustable. It cannot be programmed, but it can be adjusted.

          B.B.

    • kenholmz Says:

      Gunfun1, just for grins I offer this web page. Apparently, some competition crossbows have electronic triggers these days. I find the crossbow arena to be similar to airgun shooting (springers in particular), at least as much as firearms are.

      http://www.winzeler.ch/Winzeler_Crossbow_en/Crossbow_Handling/Crossbow_handling_2_index.html

      Starting from this page you can explore more about the trigger, etc.

      ~ken

      • nowhere Says:

        Your comment about finding commonality between crossbow and airgun shooting struck me – I’ve often described target shooting with my airguns as being like archery, but archery you can safely practice in your house. I also suddenly realized why PCP or CO2 airguns don’t appeal to me quite as much as springers and pump pneumatic: with a springer or SSP the gun is storing the muscle power you’ve just put into it and it then releases that energy in a very efficient manner to propel the projectile towards the target. Bows and crossbows do the same. There’s something beautiful about that.

        I suppose if I used a hand pump to fill a PCP is would be almost the same thing but that feels kind of one step removed from the immediacy of the energize-fire cycle of an SSP or springer.

        Things I would really like to see: the new LGV being made available with stock and sights modeled on the old Walther Olympia and a rifle in the same price/quality/performance range as the Daisy/Avanti 853 but with a sidelever action and a stock in the fashion of a 10M rifle (the lines of the FWB 300 would be a good inspiration).

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Ken yes that is kind of interesting also.I just wondered if they could be programmed any kind of way also.

  • twotalon Says:

    Looks like John has nothing to fear…………..
    When I cranked up the blog to see what B.B. has today, I see an add on the right side for another Evanix. I can’t say what I was thinking when I saw that. Those kinds of words get censored.

    twotalon

    • Robert From Arcade Says:

      TT: Agreed . So tired of that and zombies, and all the rest….

      • john Says:

        I thought we were done with the zombie thing after 12-21-12 when I vanquished the last martian zombie with my twinkie launching gun.

        • /Dave Says:

          John,

          Zombies are forever. It’s been that way since I can remember. Night of the Living Dead back in the 60′s creeped me out really bad… Couldn’t sleep for a week.

          /Dave

          • john Says:

            Say it isn’t so! I am almost out of twinkies for my twinkie gun! How will I save civilization now???

            • /Dave Says:

              Sorry, man….. We doomed…. DOOMED…..!

              • john Says:

                There may be hope. I’ll have to look into it, but Little Debbies Swiss cake rolls bight do the trick too. I might have to modify my twinkie gun a bit and use 2 swiss cake rolls instead of one twinkie. You know, double tap them. If not maybe zombie airsoft guns will do the trick, but I wouldn’t hold your breath on plastic ammo stopping a zombie.

      • Wulfraed Says:

        Hornady is still selling their “zombie-max” ammo… Which is really nothing more than their “critical defense” load (not to be confused with “critical duty” — that is their “police/carry” load, the “defense” is a bit toned down for use inside residences) WITH THE EXCEPTION of having a green polymer tip rather than Hornady red polymer, and using naked brass cases rather than shiny nickle plating. As I recall, it costs about $2-4 less a box.

        So, practice with the cheaper version, then put the gun away in the nightstand with the “cleaner” nickle.

        Then there are the Birchwood-Casey “Darkotics” spattering targets. If you don’t like diseased rats, zombie pizza delivery, they also have carnivorous jackalopes and blood-thirsty garden gnomes (you’ll never look at Travelocity the same way again).

        • john Says:

          I pretty much avoid anything that says “Zombie” on it. I don’t like to encourage them now that I saved the world with my twinkie gun from the martian zombie hoard on 12-21-12. They heard I had that and went someplace else knowing they couldn’t defeat me. I met their leader and we sat down in our jeweled battle shorts and I explained how we were ready to use the twinkie gun. He agreed that it was a good plan and we agreed that his losses would be too great. So they left.

  • Victor Says:

    I see lots of opportunities for new airgun products. I couldn’t imagine seeing a shortage of new products. I’ve only gotten into airguns within the past 2 or 3 years, and in that short amount of time I’ve learned about lots of very interesting guns that are new to me.

    One thing that I’m still waiting for are more powerful target air-rifles that are very similar to 10-meter air-rifles (e.g., FWB, Anschutz, Walther, etc.), except for a more powerful power plant. Like the better 10-meter guns, these more powerful guns will use aperture target sights, have an anschutz rail, and adjustable everything. I can see ISSF-like matches for prone at say, 25 meters, and NRA-like matches for prone at 3 distances; 25 yards, 25 meters, and 50 yards (think NRA small-bore prone shot at 50 yards, 50 meters, and 100 yards). I also see the same for three or four position.

    The power is no longer an issue, and neither is the accuracy. We just don’t have “magnum” air-rifles outfitted like precision class air-rifles. I really could dig shooting prone, with a sling, aperture sights, for score, at 25 and 50 yards. I’m sure that there are field target rifles similar to this, except that they require a scope, as opposed to iron sights. In fact, such competition would have an iron-sights component and an any-sights (i.e., scope) component.

    I like dreaming…

    Victor

    • twotalon Says:

      Victor…

      I like that idea. But it’s gonna cost.

      Would that be indoor or outdoor competition ?

      twotalon

      • Victor Says:

        twotalon,

        I’m thinking outdoor, but indoor could work, if an indoor range is available that goes out to 50 yards.

        Cost can be an issue, but it doesn’t have to be. The obvious power-plant is PCP, but seeing the accuracy of the newer Walther LGV’s, I can see a variation using break-barrel. There is a competition version of the LGV with an adjustable cheek-piece. I’d still want a stock that could accommodate an Anschutz standard rail.

        The targets would need to be relaxed a bit to accommodate for moderate wind such the best shooters could possible to shoot a perfect score, but barely. Of course, we’d also want an X-ring, as with small-bore rifle.

        We sometimes forget that small-bore rifles would be all over the place at 100 yards, if not for some serious skill on the part of the shooter. And like pellet rifles, .22 firearms are very picky about their ammo.

        In small-bore competition, each target has a “sighter bull” that the shooter can go to at anytime during a match. This is how we dope the wind.

        For NRA matches, the shooter gets 1.5 minutes per shot. For ISSF matches, the shooter gets 2 minutes per shot.

        Compared to small-bore, this would be much cheaper, just because of the ammo. A case of Eley Tenex (red box) cost close to $2000.00. An active shooter can use that up within a year, so we’re talking about $2000.00 per year to compete. With even the best air-gun pellets, we’re talking a small fraction of that costs.

        We just need guns (possibly existing ones) outfitted for use with a sling, and everything else like small-bore. That extra power that we’re getting with new guns could be put to good use in this way. I think it would be even more interesting that 10 meter shooting. I also think that this would grab the attention of a lot of fire-arm competitive marksman. Serious competition at 50 yards would be a real surprise to lots of guys at the range, especially the ones who compete with target rifles.

        Victor

        • twotalon Says:

          Victor…

          Just thinking a bit more…
          I know how squirrely pellets get in the wind. Maybe better to shoot indoors.
          Know where to get a Govt surplus airplane hangar ? But they do get drafty in places because of the heating systems. That would handicap some shooters standing in the wrong place.

          I still like the idea of stretching it out some.

          I have no idea how bad wadcutters get at FT velocities at distance, with or without air movement. I do know that it takes very little to drive them nuts. Probably have to use domed.

          twotalon

          • Victor Says:

            twotalon,

            Indoors would be best, but I’ve not seen too many indoor ranges that go out to 50 yards.

            But again, the targets would be reasonably relaxed. My Anschutz 1413 could shoot a lightly ragged whole at 50 yards, which would fit entirely within the X-ring. I use to shoot 40-40X at 50 yards often. My point is that even small-bore targets are very relaxed.

            So under ideal conditions, the X-ring would be larger than a good group shot from a quality rifle. In moderate wind, say 10mph, a good shooter should be able to clean 25 yards. The 50 yard bulls and scoring rings would obviously be bigger, but would be more of a challenge with that same 10mph wind.

            Some experimentation is necessary to determine reasonable size rings for 25 yards and 50 yards. On a good day, with little wind, shooters should be able to set records, but not easily shoot all X’s. On a windy day, the winner is simply the person who got the most points.

            I think that this type of challenge would produce some new insights about shooting pellet rifles in wind. At present, I don’t think that too many of us have figured this out yet. I certainly haven’t.

            Again, at present probably all air-gun manufacturers have guns that shoot .177 pellets at over 1000fps, so why not add some accuracy to this, along with competition level rifle stocks and sights.

            In fact, maybe this should be .22 caliber only. That would make even more sense. I’ll bet that in addition to wind-doping with airguns being taken to another level, so would pellet designs. Maybe someone will figure out how to finally create an accurate airgun bullet.

            Really, the possibilities are endless, as this would likely be more attractive than small-bore competition. It would certainly be more accessible/affordable.

            Victor

            • twotalon Says:

              Victor..

              Wind and pellets…
              That gets hard to test. Where I shoot, the wind is usually too variable in speed and direction. On top of that, there is uneven terrain and obstacles. Buildings, trees, fence rows. The wind twists and swirls. The pellets get bounced around in all directions.

              twotalon

          • Wulfraed Says:

            Can’t help on the hanger… But a Government Surplus DC-9 (if I heard correctly) is supposedly up for around $50,000. This is what used to be the short-haul “Air Force 1″ some decades ago — used when the destination runway couldn’t handle a 707/747…

      • Victor Says:

        twotalon,

        Ooh! Ooh! I got another idea!
        Since I want an Anschutz rail under the stock for things like a hand-stop/sling, counter-weights, bipod, etc., there would be issues with current break-barrels because they break vertically down.

        Why couldn’t a whole new class of break-barrels be made that break to the side (i.e., horizontally)? They would be less likely to have barrel droop, I would think.

        Victor

        • twotalon Says:

          Victor…

          Sideways droop ? I dunnow. Put the rail under a Diana 48. Then you have downward droop, but you can have a rail too.

          I don’t know why they droop them. My 97k has no droop.

          twotalon

          • Victor Says:

            twotalon,

            The rifle would break sideways, and thus not have to contend with gravity in the same way as current break=barrels.

            I’m just throwing things out, since today’s topic is about where things can/might go with airguns.

            I really like the idea of precision class .22 caliber air-rifles that could be used in matches similar to NRA and ISSF, but out to 25 and 50 yards, instead of just 10 meters.

            I think that there are plenty of people here who are much smarter and insightful than me to help come up with good ideas as to how we might make this happen. In other words, come up with a rough specification, or set of realizable goals.

            Victor

            • twotalon Says:

              Victor…

              Sure….there is always room for more kinds of competition . I have not kept up with all the kinds. People keep inventing new kinds all the time. Some of it is born out of plinking games. Mostly informal stuff. Getting something established on a formal and national level (or even an international level) could be tough because of power/caliber limitations in some countries.

              twotalon

              • Victor Says:

                twotalon,

                For starters, I can see taking the new Walther LVG competition model with adjustable cheek-piece, and putting target sights (aperture sights front and rear). It would be better if they had a thumb-hole stock.

                Again, because I’m exploring the idea of shooting up to 50 yards, the .22 caliber version makes more sense.

                Victor

                • twotalon Says:

                  Victor…
                  Sounds like a good configuration, but I am not too sure about the thumbhole. I guess it’s O.K. if it fits your hand right.

                  twotalon

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Victor,

          Now, THAT is a new idea!

          B.B.

        • Wulfraed Says:

          Break left or right?

          At this point, I’d say give up on the break barrel and use a lever/loading-port… Something like the m54…

  • Robert From Arcade Says:

    A lot of readers might not know ,but W.H.B. Smith was also a firearms designer who really thought outside the box, research him . Also he wrote in the book BB refers to ,that because of future development(urban sprawl) and the cost of shoooting, airguns would become more popular. He sure had a good crystal ball with fresh batteries. Kevin and Victor mentioned airguns that need to be powerful and refined enough to be subsitutes for firearms . I like the idea of a PCP that is $150, or a MSP in .25 or .30 cal that could be used for pest control and informal target shooting. We need a subsitute for RF that combines the short range power and acuracy of .22 RF ammo like the CCI Quiet with the afford ability of the common .22 RF rifles, but in a air rifle. I’d like to also be able to make my own projectiles for them also.

    • ibgp3 Says:

      A crosman 2400KT with shoulder stock and 24″ barrel is around $100.00
      A power-max 8 3/8″ tube is $65.00 and screws into the 2400.

      That’s mighty close to a $150.00 PCP

  • Fred DPRoNJ Says:

    Products will continue to evolve and get better. Look at what CNC machining has done for mechanical products? Who thought a car engine would last over 200,000 miles 30 years ago? Or a car would not disolve into a bucket of rust? What I look forward to is a new and more accurate method of making rifle barrels that will be inexpensive, an improvement and reduction in price of gas struts or springs, if you will, that will make economic and performance sense in replacing that steel spring, cheaper electronics that enable an electronic trigger to be installed in every air or firearm that are superior to the mechanical series of levers and springs and sears now in vogue, and so on.

    My mother, who has long since passed away, used to describe as a child how everyone would run out of the house to look at an airplane flying overhead. No one back then thought of flying to the moon or satellites.

    Improvements will get here so long as there is financial reward for the financial risk – aka – capitalism. It will be in our lifetimes so sit back and enjoy the show!

    Fred DPRoNJ

    • /Dave Says:

      I still run out of the house for airplanes and helicopters….. B-)

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Why did I didn’t I see your reply. Me too.

      • Wulfraed Says:

        I, OTOH, apparently grew up in a different environment…

        Between the TV showing of “War of the Worlds”, and being at Ft. Rucker (Army helicopter flight school) during the Vietnam war period… Hearing aircraft outside tended to be more a signal to move away from windows into sheltered area — so I couldn’t be targeted…

        What do you expect from a 4th grader?

  • Victor Says:

    Off Topic

    I’ve seen pictures of field target shooters using what looks like a palm-rest. Does anyone know where one can find one of these palm-rest’s that I believe are used by field target competitors? These palm-rest are rectangular in shape and allow the shooter to raise the rifle up for convenience.

    Victor

    • twotalon Says:

      Victor…

      Most probably knee rests in FT.

      I would like to find out some of this myself. My T200 has a rail under it, but I have no idea what kind it is.

      twotalon

      • Victor Says:

        twotalon,

        There you go! It’s a knee rest! I’d imagine that you can also use it as a palm-rest for shooting offhand. The ones that I’ve seen were black colored. That’s what I want.

        Victor

        • twotalon Says:

          Victor..

          I don’t know if it would give you the right position. I think the palm rests are set up with an adjustable offset to move the rest back toward the trigger.

          twotalon

  • J. Says:

    “Today mechanical calculators are cheap — even the ones that do advanced math.”

    Hate to pick nits, but… As far as I know, no one sells new mechanical calculators today. I’m pretty sure you’re referring to hand-held, electronic calculators, specifically the $5 scientific calculators that big-box stores sell every autumn when the kiddies go back to school.

    “What would you like to see, and how can it be accomplished?”

    I’m going to buck the trend a bit here since I like plinking, I dislike hold sensitive guns, and I still want something on the cheap (which rules out PCPs). So I’m going to say I’d like to see an easy to cock single-pump pneumatic sized for older teens/adults, with actual iron (err… plastic) sights not that fiber-optic crap, that puts out 3-5 ft-lbs muzzle energy, and that retails for around $50.

    As for how it could be accomplished… Scale up the Daisy Grizzly. Or put a Daisy 953 power plant in a Daisy 880/Daisy 35.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      J.,

      You are right, of course. I should have said electronic calculators.

      B.B.

    • ajvenom Says:

      It’s hard to get away from fiber optic sights nowadays. Although, I haven’t looked a lot at the sights on newer air guns lately. They do help with quick sighting in low lighting. If done properly, they can be very accurate.

      I use to shoot my multipumps with less pumps indoors. Then I bought a 953, which ended up being the 2nd most accurate airgun at 10 meters I own. The most accurate one I own is an 853 with 753 style sights. Generally, you can spend 3 to 4 times the money on a new 753 which makes the 953 a good airgun for the money and worth checking out. It wouldn’t hurt to keep an eye out for a used 953 at PA, gun broker or network 54 to bring costs down.

      • Wulfraed Says:

        Especially if you can find the early 80′s US Shooting Team model… That one came with most of the fittings of the 853: shooting sling, aperture front and “micrometer” peep rear, wood stock. Just had the 953 receiver and barrel.

        I have one — it was advertised for a few months in the back pages of American Rifleman; something like $20-30 of the cost was supposed to fund the USST.

  • john Says:

    I don’t mind putting some bucks into an airgun. God knows I bought a condor and pimped it out to my liking. But I have criteria for airguns. One thing I like is an airgun that is readily identifiable from every other gun in the racks. When you have a Condor in the rack with a Beeman R-1 and a Ruger Airhawk and a Gamo big cat and a Crosman Optimus, only one gun stands out. If I’m at home and I need am Ruger Airhawk from that rack (which is 8 miles south of home, and I know my mom is coming on the way into town to deliver eggs. I might give her a call and ask that she drop over the Airhawk. She looks at the rack of guns and sees all the guns that look the same and brings the Beeman R-1 because she can’t tell the difference between them because they all are cut from the same cookie cutter mold. That is a problem. Mow if I ask for the Condor to come out I get the condor because it is easy to spot.

    If I take out the ruger air hawk, beeman r-1, and some chinese made no name break barrel for a day at my personal range every one looks the same, I hit the same target in the same spot, at the same range, there is no real excitement and I realize I might as well just saved my money and kept my airhawk and never bothered with the others. That makes me look at the Walther LGR and think “This looks like all the rest, functions like all the rest and will likely give me all the results I get with the rest, I cannot justify a $600 for it. Yet everybody else is swearing up and down it’s the best you can get. Deep down when you get into the nuts, bolts and springs, the tech has not really changed enough for me to justify the buy like I could justify the Condor. Now that I have my Condor I looked at the Condor SS. When the prototype was hailed as quiet, I was all jazzed about it. When the report comes out on the actual gun it’s called loud. Now I’m not as jazzed since I know my condor with it’s fully shrouded barrel is in fact quiet if I set the dial right. So now I’ll wait until I see that quiet gun be quiet as I was believing at first.

    Now Crosman has the MK-177 that promised to be a harder hitter than the M4-177, has a unique look, that has me excited over a plastic cheap gun. The MSR-77 is another gun I am jazzed about. It’s just another 1000 fps springer. Functions like all the rest, but easily identifiable in the rack with the look of an AR15. That has me happier about a break barrel than the LGR and I can justify a $150 more than I can $700.

    Look at Crosman Vantage, Crosman nitro Venom and Crosman optimus. All identical with slight variations in butt stock. They blend in with everything else so I wouldn’t bother buying any of them. It’s best to stick with my Ruger Airhawk.

    • Titus Groan Says:

      Hi John.
      I understand what you are saying, but I have to take some exception to your criteria for what makes a gun different. Are you saying you want gun A, to stand out from gun B? This is valid, and since you are the guy who owns them, it is entirely your choice. I own a plethora of Weihrauchs. I bought them first and foremost,for the quality that the company is famous for, and because each model has a totally unique look, and function. My HW35, is one of my favourites. It has been in production unchanged for over 50 years. I like the positive lock of the barrel. Same system as the Walther LGV. A very nice shooting gun that is perfect the way it is. My HW98 has an adjustable cheek peace and butt end. It also has a steel barrel shroud, that makes aim, and follow through so smooth. A purpose built Field Target spring gun. I could go on and about the merits of the under levered HW77, or 97, but my point is we all see perfection from different points of view. This must make it very difficult for a manufacturer to design a new model. Stay with traditional lines, or offer something totally new. To my eyes, the new look of a Gamo, or other model that touts speed in their advertising, is just a re-pakaged model from yesterday. Change for the sake of change is meaningless if you are just offering the same piston, spring, trigger, and barrel. I’ll take my 60 year old Record trigger over most new and improved designs being offered today. I demand quality when I shell out good bucks for a new gun. I have learned through this blog, the manufacturers who will give me what I want.
      In my final summation, I may love every work of art Pablo Picasso ever put out. Someone else may love a picture of the mountain with the obligatory stream winding into the room. This is what makes each of us unique. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but quality reigns supreme.
      Caio Titus

      • john Says:

        Sounds like you kind of understand what I’m saying. Inside it’s all the same thing. What’s being called new is pretty much just repackaged older guns. A fine example of this is the Beretta SX4 Tactical CO2 BB Shotgun Air gun. Relatively new right? Wrong! exactly the same thing as the now discontinued Walther SG9000. All they did to make it new was change the name. Same thing with some of the new lead free airgun ammo crosman came out with. Just renamed Skenco pellets. Gamo came out with some pointed pellets which are simply rebranded Predator Ploymags. Crosman Nitro venom, Optimus, Vantage. All the same rifle with tiny cosmetic tweaks to the outside of the gun. Crosman 760, Crosman M4-177 Same gun different looks different prices. Gamo…..Rocket, Hornet, Big Cat….the list goes on and on. Same gun, different name. This is why I ask….Is this it? Is that all there is? When I hear that the SHOT show has all kinds of new stuff I get excited every year. I hope and pray for all kinds of new and exciting guns. This year I am very disappointed. Only a handful came out. most of it isn’t really new. It’s just repackaged and renamed older models. I want someone to razzle-dazzle me with something I just have to have. Something innovative. Show me something I haven’t seen 1000 times before. I remember the first time I saw the Gamo Whisper. It was unusual. An airgun with a unique silencer on the end of the barrel. I had to have it. And the Gamo Viper Express. A .22 caliber shotgun! I never saw that before. I had to have it. I still have it. Same with a few Tech force guns. The TF66 and TF67. Side lever take down bullpup air rifles. But what I have to choose from today is pretty much what I already own. This I am not all jazzed over stuff that everybody else is all jazzed over. Jim Shockey Benjamin Legacy….Already done. See Gamo Whisper….So I won’t bother buying it.

        • cowboystar dad Says:

          And isn’t this the same with everything John ;-(
          Every year the new model cars (RV’s, cameras, dishwashers) are introduced with ‘cutting edge’ technology that ‘you have to have’.
          I have no issue with companies that bring out new products with updated specs…but everytime I hear ‘revolutionary’ or ‘groundbreaking’ I tend to go into disbelief mode.

          • J-F Says:

            My favorite is “no compromise were made”, when we know a product has to be a mix of compromises.
            You have to compromise some fuel economy in order to get nice, sporty horsepower and you have to compromise some handling to get some comfort etc.
            You can’t get a 100$ air gun that has 50 fpe, can hit a dime at 100 yards every time, is easy to cock or pump and has a scratch resistant exotic wood stock that’s not too heavy or a car that can go from 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds, has a 10,000 lbs towing capacity, seating for 6 adults, 80MPG, is reliable and costs less than 20,000$ all while looking good and being reliable of course!

            J-F

  • john Says:

    That’s about where I am now. I look at all this new stuff. I look at what I have and see it’s just repackaged newer versions of what I already have. Everybody started to talk about how wonderful the new smart phones were. I looked at my cheap old flip open cell phone. It still made phone calls so I never bothered to get a new smart phone. There was no need. I finally got a smart phone last month. The only reason I did is because I had an issue with my carrier so switched carriers and got a smart phone for one cent with a 2 year contract. All I do with the thing is make phone calls. But I found it can do exactly one thing my old phone cannot do. It can fly a Parrot Drone. I plan on getting one of those to look for groundhogs and muskrats and save myself a ton of walking. Nothing like a cell phone bird’s eye view to tell you what is around. It’s a miniature version of the military tactic of finding the enemy by using an eye in the sky. Then send in the troops. I plan to do that with hunting.

  • /Dave Says:

    How about more carbon fiber, and titanium in a dual opposed, differential air piston multi pump a la Whiscombe, Nibecker, FX Independence and duskwight?

    /Dave

  • Rob Says:

    I just laughed when reading into the article, I got to the point where BB says…”Triggers get better”, immediately, the first thing that popped in my mind was Crosman/Benjamin and their awful triggers in just about all their Spring/Nitro airguns. It seems to me that time stood still with Crosman in respect to triggers.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Rob,

      Yes, the Chinese guns Crosman sells do have awful triggers. Now, try a Marauder trigger.

      B.B.

    • john Says:

      I must agree. These Chinese sell outs Crosman are foisting off on us have wretched triggers. I bought a TR77NP and fired it exactly once before I was online looking for a GRT3 trigger. I don’t normally replace triggers in my guns but that gun was, I felt, unusable until that third world trigger was replaced. With China having no understanding of quality I honestly wonder why we do so much business with them.

  • chris in ct Says:

    I would like to see a 22 cal round ball red ryder that does 500 fps

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    As far as future technology goes for air rifles that I would like to see would be weight reduction and increased shot capacity without making the gun bigger.And not necessarily more fps but better accuracy.I guess maybe somewhat quiet also.I know we have different products available right now that have different characteristics available but as this blog goes.Is that all there is?I mean what one thing would really change the appeal of air guns for the future or other types of guns for that fact? Some of the things above are reality and some maybe a dream.Everybody keeps talking about the guns.What about sights and range finding?What if there was a micro flat screen that folded out the side of the stock that was your rangefinder,scope level and such.Touch the screen enter the weight of the pellet and fps that it will shoot wind direction and velocity and it instantly will give you your hold over or windage with a little picture of a mil dot scope with it lit up where you need to hold your scope on the target.Look at all the different type of apps you can get for your smart phones these days.This is the electronic age so why not have it as a option for the gun.Maybe that’s were the big change will be for airguns(and all types of guns)is the accessory’s.

    • john Says:

      That’s some tech I’d like to see on my condor. Like an add on revice that will sit on the tri-rail mount where it’s instantly useful. I already have a digital camera, laser, light, foregrip, bipod….But all that cones with a price. That makes my condor a heavy beast and steals some of the multi-mission capability of the gun meaning I’m looking at a Talon that I can stick a 12 inch barrel into and stick fiber optic sights on and keep it light and portable.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Your Condor sounds cool.I have Marauders.177,.25 and a Marauder.22 Pistol and also a Crosman 1720T .177 pistol they all have the 1399 custom stock on them no more wood on the Marauder rifles.I use the Hawke Varmit scopes with the 1/2 Mildot recticles. Got all my ranges on my flip up caps but getting ready for the Chair gun program from Hawke scopes so I can mess around with some long long range shooting.I would really like to see the recticle show up on a little screen with the hold over already high lighted.Sometimes you don’t have much time to point and aim depending on what your hunting.So yep I am definatly interested in the electronics to be adapted to my guns.

        • john Says:

          That’s the beauty of the Condor. It’s so adaptable as long as you can fill the tank it’s good for just about amything a .22 rim fire rifle is good for. It can be any barrel size, any one of 4 calibers, and have all the goodies you can stuff onto it. And then accepts sone aftermarket tweaks it wasn’t normally made for as well like the Maddog stocks. I’d love to put one of those stocks on a talon with a 12 inch barrel and get the bullpup look. But I know very little about these new safeties and if the new design is compatible with after market stocks.

          When I got my condor I was instantly spoiled. I rarely ever use any of my other guns now. Most of them sit in the racks gathering dust. The only one I have used lately is my Gamo Viper Express shotgun. The reason for that is While I’m surgical with a rifle, I have very little experience with shotguns. Shotgun ammo is a bit expensive for just practicing so I pull out the next best thing. An air shotgun. The Viper Express is kind of a useless airgun but it was an innovation I never saw before so I got jazzed enough about it I bought one. It’s not a bad gun and it’s relatively accurate, but the shotgun shells spread out and are kinda worthless after 10 yards with all the tiny bird shot losing velocity fairly quickly.
          If anything, I’d like to see that gun revisited maybe with a larger caliber and a bit heavier shot and beefed up power plant. Oh, and reloadable shells.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            I have been wanting a Condor.I like the fact that the guns are so interchangeable.I like the Talon SS also because of the sound.So the Condor SS is something I have been waiting for.I mod my guns,My Marauders and the 1720 are all turned up in fps.Also got things done to quiet them down.So maybe the Condor SS will be the gun that is one step closer from the factory with out having to do so many Mods.Or closer to a more powerful quiet gun with less mods.And that is what I’m talking about with technology.Maybe it will be just one step closer with each development.

            • john Says:

              If I were you I’d go for the Condor over the Talon SS. The frame is the same size but you get more top rail on the condor, the heavier striker and hi-flo tank. You can always get a regular tank and 12 inch barrel and end cap later. Then you have a Condor and Talon ss all in one gun. Of course I like the idea of keeping my hi flow tank and 24″ barrel and shrouding that 24″ barrel. Think monster Talon SS on serious steroids. Turn down the power to 5 or less and it gets quiet. turn it up to above 5 and it starts to get noisier as you start punching a hole in the universe. You have to do the same thing with the Talon SS but you can’t take full advantage of that power wheel with the 12 inch barrel.

              • Gunfun1 Says:

                John good info about the Condor.Thanks

                • john Says:

                  No problem. Like you I wanted the talon ss but I live in Michigan where our law makers fear shrouded airgun barrels so they made them hard to get. So I had to go for the Condor and make it into a talon ss. I eventually figured out through trial and error that the condor was a better gun for what I wanted to do. So I put in the 24″ barrel again, shrouded it and added goodies to it until I had something that is exactly what I needed. Might as well learn at my expense.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            I’m always ready for when the beer run and the wild turkey is always a challenging sport.Mis spell…Deer run:)

  • john Says:

    I’d love to see someone revisit Gamo’s air shotgun idea. Maybe make it a .25 caliber pcp gun with some reloadable shells with a bit larger shot in it. The idea was a good one but I do not think it was very well thought out. the shot in their non-reloadable shells was too small to do any kind of damage for hunting so the gun is kind of useless. Also a 5.5mm bore was too small to hold any decent load of shot. Bot .25 caliber and #6 shot instead on #8 shot might be effective.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      John,

      That has been done. It was called the Fire 201. Twenty-five caliber and 100 #8 birdshot per charge. It did propel them at over 1,000 f.p.s., but even then they didn’t penetrate a coffee can bottom at 10 feet. Small shot carries too little inertia.

      Might have been good for hummingbirds at 20 feet and 20 to life if you got caught. Audebon could shoot them, but we can’t.

      B.B.

      • john Says:

        Well it was a thought. Maybe that is why they ended production of the Viper Express. Just wasn’t good for anything. But I liked the concept. I always wondered what would happen if a Condor was set up to fire Gamo Shotgun shells or something like them. I guess I got my answer.

  • Colt25 Says:

    You just have to wonder, what airguns will be like in 10-15- or even 20 years.
    Pellets that hold accuracy past the speed of sound? Spring piston rifles that shoot more than once on one cock? (piston does not go all the way forward with a automatic pellet feeder)
    Hopefully, I can make a significant contribution to the air rifle world. Like you have.

  • twotalon Says:

    O.K. guys…. I think I have trouble….

    My wife has figured me out….to some degree…..

    She found a sheet of black card stock on the back porch that has rows of white Life Savers glued to it.
    She did not take long to figure the plan….shoot through the Life Savers. At first when I bought them she had the idea that I was going to eat them . I don’t care for that flavor anyway. She did not know it.

    Sometimes they are too smart.

    twotalon

    • john Says:

      I bet she was all over you like a cheap suit for wasting perfectly good candy this close to mother’s day. Maybe the wrath of wife won’t be so bad if you have a big box of her favorite candy and flowers for her tommorow.

      I did something like that this year for my mom. I found a certain candy I used to like when I was little that I hadn’t seen in many years and got some for her. It might not be her favorite but it was the memory that goes with them that was the real gift. She was a bit confused over the strange gift until she remembered what they were.

      • twotalon Says:

        john….

        No she was not upset. She does not like a lot of things that I do. She does not like that flavor anyway.
        I bought a big jug of cheese balls for target practice, but found that they sucked for that, but work great for possum and coon bait. Someting is useful for something.

        She helped edit this because I am wasted on Beam and Coke.

        twotalon

        • john Says:

          I got something better going on here. I brew my own beer. I’m 6 days away from bottling a blend I remember from Germany at the moment. It will be ready a week later but really good after a week in the fridge. It should be perfect by may 30. I just sampled it today for quality control purposes. Still flat as you can possibly get, but it’s supposed to be that way at this time. Promises to be some premium stuff.

          Interesting historical note. Beer is one of the oldest known alcoholic beverages in the world. It was likely on board Noah’s arc since in those days the alcohol content was the only way to keep anything drinkable on a ship. Pure water would grow bacteria and other nasties so beer was the only practical way to keep water. as it was simple to brew and store more than wine.

  • Matt61 Says:

    Anyone predicting the final state of anything is working against a lot of history. After the discovery of electromagnetism in the 19th century, physicists thought that they had discovered everything. And not long ago until the discovery of dark matter and energy, they were even working on a final theory of everything. In the years before WWI, Europe thought that the world had become too civilized for war(!) And then they thought that WWI was the war to end all wars (!!) On the other hand, we seem to be stuck on a plateau in firearms design. One authority on weapons claims that the assault rifle design is so well-refined that there is really no way to improve it without some radical breakthrough in technology. That could be one reason that the AR-15 has been around so long. And the endless tide of glossy magazine articles on the black rifle and the avalanche of new accessories belie the fact that they are all about the same. The only real innovation in firearms design I can think of was an effort by Remington in the 80s to improve lock time with an electronic trigger. I think they were going to try this on a 788 rifle. The idea make sense but it never panned out. Anyone know why? With airguns, the basic principles seem hard to beat. But there is a steady shifting of ground in raising the general bar. The inventory of Pyramidair has become distinctly different from the models I studied so obsessively when I got started. I’ve even heard of my Daisy 747 referred to as an old gun!

    Edith, nothing could top the story of you and B.B. So, B.B. as elephant. Well, you can say so. :-) But my regard and respect for elephants is second to none, so I can say so too. :-) Didn’t you say that B.B. has difficulty recognizing faces? He must have thought out his plan very carefully. I myself have tried the romance in church ploy, but it didn’t work as well. I fell in with a bunch who decided that they would greet each other with a hug just as they imagined the early Christians did. A real community of love. I liked that idea very much. But then it turns out that the girls I targeted, like B.B., just gave even bigger smiles and got even more familiar with the guys they were interested in compared to me. So, nothing really changed and my joy was turned to gall. Well, after telling your friends that you had yet to date the man that you were going to marry, that would have been your chance to play out one of my favorite scenes from The Graduate.

    Father: You mean that Elaine doesn’t know you’re going up to Berkeley?
    Ben: No, she doesn’t know that we’re getting married.
    Father: When did you decide this?
    Ben: About an hour ago. In fact, she doesn’t even like me.
    Father: Ben…This all sounds pretty half-baked.
    Ben: No, it’s COMPLETELY BAKED.

    john, I thought that getting your AK47 wrecked by your ex-wife was the worst of it, but I guess not. Your line from The Graduate would be (from the father): “This doesn’t sound too good Ben.” If your wife was the result of a conviction that she was the one for you, you should probably avoid following any such convictions in the future and do the exact opposite.

    FredPRofNJ and Slinging Lead, I’m glad if I could clarify things for you about the nonresponsive women. Changes the perspective doesn’t it? When you see that behavior, you know at least there’s a chance that she avoids eye contact so as not to expose the wild passion within that she cannot control, and there’s sense in that. The thing to do is be noble and sympathetic.

    If elephants have shown us so much, what do you suppose that lions can do? Have you ever had sleek females in heat circling eagerly for your attention while you remain lordly and distant and gazing off at the horizon?

    On another note, on the subject of police responsiveness, I read that the Cleveland police were called after the recently released captive women, as young girls, were being led around in a yard by dog collars. But the police didn’t even show up. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.: “I’m sorry I can’t share [an] enthusiasm for [these] police.”

    Matt61

  • jgc Says:

    B.B.,

    New topic if that is ok.

    Picked up a 10 shot Benjamin CO2 semi auto today. (.22)

    Had one a long time ago.

    Put a drop of Pellgunoil in the screen and loaded a CO2 cartridge.

    Put a couple dozen shots through it.

    Hoping the oil works it magic in the internal seals.

    If not, what are the chances of getting replacement seals?

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