Ballistic coefficient: What is it? Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

This report addresses:

• Definition of ballistic coefficient (BC).
• How are BCs determined?
• Bullets and pellets have an additional factor.
• BCs are not constants.
• BC is an expression of how much velocity is lost in flight.
• How to cheat the BC numbers.

If ever there was an elephant in a room full of airgunners — this is it! Ballistic coefficient. It seems like everybody talks about it, but what does it mean?

Definition
Ballistic coefficient (BC) is the measure of a ballistic projectile’s ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It’s stated as a decimal fraction smaller than one. When diabolo pellets are discussed, the BCs are very low numbers in the 0.010 to 0.045 range because diabolos are purposely designed to slow down in the air. Their wasp waists, flared skirts and hollow tails all contribute to very high drag that rapidly slows them down — much like a badminton birdie. Lead bullets, in contrast, have BCs between 0.150 and 0.450.

lead bullet comparison
The long lead bullet on the right has a higher BC than the short fat bullet on the left. When they’re both fired at the same speed, the bullet on the right will not slow down as fast as the bullet on the left.

How is it determined?
To physicists, BC is a function of mass, diameter and drag coefficient. This set of parameters seems simple until you examine it closer. A round ball made of pure lead should always weigh the same, as long as the diameter is the same. But a diabolo pellet is conical in shape and can be much longer than the diameter of a round ball of the same caliber. Depending on how the pellet is designed (i.e., how hollow or solid it is), it can also be much heavier because it contains more lead than the ball.

Bullets and pellets have an additional factor
For pellets and bullets, there’s an additional factor to consider — shape. For that reason, there’s a separate definition for the ballistic coefficient of bullets that takes into account the sectional density dictated by the form or shape of the projectile.

I’m purposely avoiding any discussion of BC that includes formulas. Stated simply, a pellet or bullet with a high BC (a large number) will continue to fly much longer than a pellet or bullet with a low BC: A high BC means the pellet will fly farther!

BCs are not constants
Okay, you say, that’s exactly what I want! Give me only those pellets that have high BC numbers.

Not so fast! However, as the velocity of a projectile changes, so does the projectile’s BC. BCs are not constants. There’s no such thing as a pellet with a BC of 0.035. But there are plenty of pellets that will achieve a BC of 0.035 at a certain velocity. When a BC is given, it means something only if the velocity at which that BC was obtained is given with it.

This could get confusing, couldn’t it? Yes, it can be confusing if you try to force numbers onto pellets when they don’t apply. But when you understand that the BC of a pellet is actually a sliding scale, you begin to understand the ballistics of airguns.

BC chart
The ballistic coefficient of a single pellet can change this much with velocity changes.

Who cares?
So what? Who cares about all this sliding scale stuff? You do, and I’ll tell you why. Let’s say there’s a pellet with a BC of 0.042. Wow! That’s a very high number for a diabolo pellet! I’m gonna get me some of them!

Hold on, pardner. What if I told you that pellet was the JSB Exact King in .25 caliber, and that it has that BC only when it’s moving at 1,250 f.p.s.?

BUMMER! You don’t own an air rifle that will propel a .25-caliber JSB exact King up to 1,250 f.p.s. In fact, almost no one does. Therefore, the fact that the pellet has that high a BC at that particular velocity does nobody any good.

If you think about this for a moment, it’ll dawn on you that a particular BC relates to the airgun being used, almost as much as it does to the pellet. Your rifle may only be able to launch the .25-caliber JSB Exact King out the muzzle at 760 f.p.s. At that speed, the BC of the pellet might be 0.033 (these are not the actual numbers, but they’re very close). By the time the pellet has gone 25 yards from the rifle, its velocity has dropped to 635 f.p.s. and the BC is down to 0.030.

BC is an expression of how much velocity a pellet loses in flight
We know that pellets slow down rapidly after leaving the muzzle. Pellets with higher BCs retain their velocities longer than pellets with lower BCs. A pellet with a BC of 0.040 at 900 f.p.s is going to go farther than a pellet with a BC of 0.020 at 900 f.p.s. Both pellets will change their BCs in flight, but the pellet that has the higher BC will never drop below the pellet with the lower BC at the same distance.

Range equals velocity — how to cheat!
I think most shooters know that the velocity of a pellet starts to decrease the moment it leaves the muzzle of the gun. And the BC is a measure of how much velocity a pellet loses in flight. If I want to get higher BCs, I can get them by measuring velocity closer to the muzzle, where the velocity loss will be less than when the pellet has traveled farther. For example, if I were to measure the BC of a pellet by comparing its muzzle velocity to the velocity at 10 meters, the BC would be higher than if I were to compare the muzzle velocity of the same pellet to its velocity at 25 meters.

I can cheat the numbers by measuring velocity loss at a very close range. The pellet that gives me a BC of 0.033 at 25 meters might give me a BC of 0.040 if I measure the velocity loss at just 10 meters. Standards are needed to make sense of these numbers.

Sometimes, people don’t WANT to make sense! Sometimes, people just want to report a high number because the folks reading the numbers think they mean something good.

In that respect, the discussion of BC among those who don’t really understand what it means is not unlike the discussion of muzzle velocity among new airgunners. Some airgun manufacturers proudly advertise their air rifles can achieve 1,300-1,600 f.p.s. People who are new to airgunning think that’s a good thing. We know it isn’t. We know that to achieve such high velocities requires the use of trick pellets no one would ever use in the field because they’re hopelessly inaccurate.

Next time
There’s a whole lot more to this topic. For example, as the velocity of diabolo pellets rises up into the transsonic region, the BC often starts dropping, again. At supersonic speeds, the pellets are very negatively affected.

We’ll also look at the pellet’s shape, for shape is what makes the BC of bullets and pellets different from other BC numbers. Technically, it’s called “form,” but the term shape is clear enough for everyone to understand.

273 thoughts on “Ballistic coefficient: What is it? Part 1

  1. The problem with supersonic is the trauma of crossing the barrier back into subsonic causes the pellet to tumble, like it has hit a wall of air, correct? Would longer pellets resist this tumbling than? Like the longer bullet above has a higher ballistic coefficient, would that help the supersonic pellets? When shooting gamo lethals they would go supersonic, but the holes in the targets showed no tumbling… they are purposefully longer it says for accuracy… what’s your take on this?


    • The Center of Gravity keeps diabolos pointing in the right direction most of the time. While transonic they are unstable, as is every projectile. Many supersonic aircraft have a wasp waist. It actually helps reduce the friction coefficient at higher velocities. Their CG is also further back than that of subsonic aircraft. Variable wing aircraft not only sweep their wings back to lower friction, but also to move the CG further back. Look at your Match King.

      As far as cutting lead in into the breach of your barrel, many do that with their AF rifles. It helps to make loading easier, most especially when they leave diabolos behind and move into the world of cast bullets.

      You are also going to have to give consideration to twist rate when you jump up in velocity if you want accuracy.


      • Those jets tend to put the CG so far back because at their speed the CL is also back there. But pellets don’t really have a center of lift.


    • The problem with airguns and pellets is they suffer from a “double whammy”, most airguns are barely able to propel a lead pellet of considerable mass to supersonic flight. In those that can the pellet receives it’s first “whammy” as it breaks the sound barrier,creating the crack, causing it’s first shock and inducing it’s first destabilization.That brings a smile to our faces but not the neighbors’ . Once in supersonic flight, things are better again but that doesn’t last very long because it can’t be maintained, from lack of energy and a high drag coefficient, causing the pellet to slow rapidly, sending the pellet back toward subsonic speed. Second “whammy”! Now the sound waves catch up to the pellet from behind, pushing on the base pellet too hard and causing the tumble that causes the inaccuracy that leads us to the search for heavier, more stable projectiles.I myself,have found a compromise with using round balls which are still fairly perfectly round even after leaving the bore, therefore tumbling has much less of an effect on accuracy.

      Or I could just be full of It!
      Reb


      • Technically, the pellet broke the speed of sound while still in the barrel (since there is nothing to accelerate the pellet once it leaves the barrel, that is the fastest it will ever go).

        The “crack” is the shockwave passing “you”, and travels with the pellet — the delay between the pellet passing a given point and the “crack” passing that point will decrease as the pellet slows. Since the barrel stabilized the pellet when it passed the speed of sound, /that/ transition is of no effect.


        • Wulfraed, Thus being the reason for my closing statement. With the level of knowledge, wisdom,and experience found here on the blog it was only a matter of time until someone found a valid point to argue. I’m still glad I wrote it here, so everyone has a chance to “roll it around”! I believe the enclosed environment inside the barrel would create an area of high pressure in front of the pellet which should have an effect on sound waves.This only leads to more speculation, which I am not only open to but encourage.
          B.B I think this matter should should go forth, for further discussion.

          Reb




  2. “Whereas I’d consider approaching this from the other side… And it may be viable for AirForce models… Modify the barrel: cut out some free-bore to take the pellet, with a forcing cone for the front end. Granted, determining the amount of free-bore that works with the widest selection of pellets may be a tedious. OTOH: a solid “bullet” will likely be shorter than hollow-base pellets of equivalent mass.” -Wulfread said this in a thread about solid pellets in May of last year, would the SmoothTwist barrels be an interesting combination with solid pellets? Im thinking longer, mostly solid pellets that would be light enough to stay supersonic to, say, 50-75 yards, stay stable, and, now hear me out, expand… Im getting real fictional now huh?




      • I bought some of these in 2011 despite the reviews.

        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Rabbit_Magnum_II_177_Cal_15_74_Grains_Cylindrical_with_Round_Nose_Solid_200ct/754

        They also make them in .22, however they have not bothered wasting lead on making them in .25.

        There are two main issues with using these in air rifles, power and twist rate. You are going to want some power with these things. You are going to want LOTS of power with these things. Forget sproingers. Any sproinger with enough umph to do anything with these is going to jump around so much, you can’t hit anything anyway.

        You will likely also want a little bit faster twist rate, say in the 1:12-14 range. Despite what the ads say, this is a bullet, not a pellet.

        In the future, if I end up with another .177 barrel for my Talon SS give these things another shot (pun intended), but if they end up being able to hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, I will be surprised.


        • That’s why I’m going to have to show H&N how to make the mini-ball design work in an air rifle, starting with a much more hollow base,this will drop some weight and aid expansion of the skirt but also make the skirts much more fragile and may require individual packaging,I have some really neat ideas on addressing the fragility issue so if H&N is listening or someone tells them I’m ready to get started any time.(325-643-2181 ask for Richard)!


  3. Thanks Mr Gaylord,

    I read your posts for regular entertainment and information on airguns in general. I am more of a shooter than a collector. But, I did find that calculating the B.C. for one of a well known high end airgun maker’s custom bullets was an interesting experience in ballistics. The slug velocity was measured using two Chronys set at 10 feet(stationary) and 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards. I saw a curve similar to the one you show in the blog. Anyway, after some minor Calculus (sorry, Engineer), I plugged the calculated B.C. data into Hawke Chairgun and then fired some test shots. Spot on. I did the same with my Talon SS and got a spot on trajectory with it’s favorite pellet. The bottom line is that you need to test the most accurate pellet in your gun at different ranges and note the drop. At the typical airgun ranges we shoot, personal testing is the best option for optimal performance. Use manufacturers data as a guide not Gospel.

    Jay



      • Thank you Sir,

        I did forget to mention that I was adjusting the velocity in increments to find the optimal BC at 30 yards for hunting.

        Jay


    • Spot on! That is how I learned about long range accuracy. I knew nothing about MOA or ballistic coefficient or twist rates. I learned through experience. A calculator can get you in the ball park, but it will not give you a home run.


      • Thanks,

        As a mechanical engineer, I will admit we use more common sense and experience than cold hard numbers in most applications. However, I always like to fact check myself and others just to see if Mr. Newton was not some 17th century quack. He was NOT.;)

        Jay


        • I believe that a Good, Educated guess is always the best place to start, when solving any problem, be it math or mechanical in nature. Also, reference materials are not only for education, but confirmation too.

          Reb


      • I agree with you about the calculators also. They are a reference basically.

        Take the side by side comparison of building a drag car, a pylon racing radio control airplane. I can try to make each exactly the same the best I can and they will more than likely perform differently.

        I can even plug numbers in on calculating formulas with gear ratios, tire diameters and engine rpm as the car ends its 1/4 mile journey. And it will tell me I’m suppose to run a determined mph and seconds depending on the formula. It may be close. But the only way I will know is if I take both of the cars and run them down the track. And more than one or two runs. I need multiple runs to know what those cars are going to do in real life. That will tell me the truth about what dial in I should put on my windshield when I’m bracket racing. The dial in is what you put on the windshield of what you say your car will run. The closer your care runs to that number consistently the more chance you have of winning.

        Then here is the other thing as the day goes on when I’m at the drag strip bracket racing. I have to change that dial in number on my windshield because the weather conditions change, the track temperature changes, The fuel mixture changes because of the weather.

        If I went by what my calculating formula said and put those numbers on the windshield I would be loosing races for sure.

        So what I’m getting at is you have to put the paper out there and you have to test your favorite pellet at different distances so you know what that pellet did at different distances. Record how much that pellet dropped or raised on each target. And I like to write on each target the distance the target was placed at, if I was shooting level and what pellet it I used along with what mil dot the scope shows of hold over or under. Oh and what distance I have the gun sighted at. And I don’t change the place from where I shoot at. I try to keep my conditions that I can control the same every time I pull the trigger for a shot.

        That’s about the only way I know to get a true reading of how that particular gun shoots with that particular projectile. And I’m sure I left some stuff out. And I will say that I was talking to steve the other day on one of the other daily topics. He had a cool way to document the pellets behavior on the scopes side wheel for parallax by marking different colors on the wheel with the distance he determined on the side wheel by shooting at targets every 20 ft. out to 100 ft. Not what the side wheel markings from the factory said. I have done the same but using yards marked of at every 10 yrds out to 50 yrds. and then marked my hold over or under by mildots on the side wheel. But I didn’t graph it basically with the colors that determined your shooting area of your scope by the trajectory of the pellet.

        That tells you pretty real world pictures of what your pellet is flying like in the air without having a camera to take a picture or video of the pellet flight. And if you want to see the difference in the BC of pellets keep every thing the same as the above test and then try a different weight pellet or shape pellet.


        • I did forget one important thing.

          You need to keep your poa (point of aim) aimed at the bulls eye on each shot fired at each target and record the poi (point of impact) on the target and on the side wheel with the mil dot hold.

          And I forgot also if you take those targets and line them up on a table in order of what distance you had them placed at out on your shooting range. Then take and circle each group of pellets on each target(hopefully you got a accurate gun so the group you circle is small). Then play connect the dots and draw a line from each group you circled on each target. And now you have a visual flight path of your pellet sitting in front of you on the table.

          I hope I explained without making it confusing.


          • Connect the dots! Simple yet effective. Im gonna try that trick next time Im out, I was at my buddys shooting and he’s got tons of space, a river running right down the side. A fallen tree across it happened to have one piece of garbage stuck to it, a bright yellow coffee can cover, about 5″ across, facing right square to us. It was about 80 yards away. After I sighted his gun in ( he has no experience ) he hit it first shot! Either that was good sighting and a good guess for holdover, or… well no, that’s what it was… lol. I sent about 20 shots toward it and hit about 10 times, nicked it 5 and was just off the rest, off hand. We were pretty excited to be hitting that, it felt like it was a mile away, holding over like a foot. We had fun.



              • I know that’s your line that’s why it fit your comment so well… proof that you live by your word, your a good man Charlie Brown. ;)
                I picked up an umarex XBG for plinking fun in the house, get a little shooting time without having to pack everything up and go out. Its basically a C11 shaped like a Springfield XD, no blowback no frills, just an accurate 400fps co2 pistol for 30 bucks. Feels sturdier than the more expensive c11 too. I like it, something to keep me going on rainy days. They got the converter kit that’ll turn it into a little carbine/machine pistol too, maybe get that eventually, but would want a fancier pistol too put it on if In gonna buy a kit, though the idea I guess is you have the whole thing together for the same price of more expensive bb pistols…


                • RDNA
                  You know what I saw one at wal mart today. I thought of Reb when I seen it. Maybe that would be the gun he is looking for. Is it easy to load? And how about when you hold it. Is it easy to handle?

                  The gun I saw is like a mini tactical gun. I think it is 2 pieces. Its a pistol but It has something over the top of the pistol and it turns it into the small tactical rifle.

                  Is that what you got?


                  • Yes, the T.A.C. carbine is the XBG with the tac converter kit together, the carbine kit can be bought separately and a whole ton of different bb and airsoft pistols can be fitted into it with the four adapters included. I just got the gun, but might get the kit, seems cool.


                  • GF1,Thanks for thinking about me I’ll have to review this gun later to see if I think it’s suitable for my purpose but if it shoots BB’s I have my doubts that it would be high on my list of priorities as I am an avid hunter and am currently saving for a hunting gun that will be suitable for my new set of challenges.

                    Reb


                  • That does sound cool. I’ve been doing some cleanup and have run across quite a few airsoft &paintball guns in the last week that have sparked a desire for something that is easier to tell where you’re hitting. I like ‘em but my money is going on a hunting gun that I’ll have time to get to know Before hunting season

                    Reb


                • Ok thats what I thought you were talking about. That’s cool that its a interchangeable system. I like when the manufacturer designs that in to their guns.

                  Have you got to shoot it yet?


                  • Yeah that has me stoked, its like 10 different guns fit in to it! If I get the kit I can grab a more expensive pistole to match, or like some are getting the kit, getting a better gun, then want another kit for the original… Im definitely back into bb pistols, I go back to em every once in awhile, they’re like an affair from my springers, lol.


          • Thank you Gunfun 1,

            That was a very accurate description of my precise experiment. I was just trying to get across the general idea without getting off track. Very correct about POA not changing and keep the shot as level as possible.

            Jay


            • Jay
              Thanks. And I think when the dots get connected it gives you a good visual of yhe pellet flight.
              What I try to do is find a flat shooting pellet that will only go a half mildot high or low from the center of the bullseye over the distance of what I make most of my hunting or plinking shots at. Say 25 to 50 yards.

              That way I know if I aim at the center of my target at that 25 to 50 yards I should fall within the kill zone that Im comfortable with. If I have a gun that is accurate and groups good and I do my part behind the trigger I end up with a succesfull cobination.


              • GF1,

                I learned how to shoot with a Ben. 392 at age 8. Yep, BC, wind correction, and elevation were all done in the best computer I had at the time, and still now.;)

                You(and the rest of the hardcore Pelletheads) should read “The Bullets Flight From Powder To Target” If you wish to get a copy there are torrents out there. Use a G2 rather than G1 BC function if you want a more accurate results in a good Ball. ap. I recomend Strelok+ as a good all around ball. application.

                I admit to going from air to powder and back to air. Love air, and can shoot most of my stuff in the back yard. The Math at the bottom screen is really kicking.

                Jay


                • Jay
                  Im pretty much do the same as you. But airguns are my first choice.

                  My dad taught me to shoot from a young age. I grew up on a farm.

                  I really should find time to read up on stuff. But I got to many projects going on all the time.

                  But I will have to say if you mis enough shots it makes you want to learn why. You know what I mean. But all I can say is shooting is fun if you do it right.


                  • HaHa,

                    I used to ride a cow. No Kidding, my great grandfather died in 1993, born in 1896. He always had a “Kind Cow” that you could ride on the farm.

                    Jay


                    • Jay
                      Wow almost a hundred years old. I think I hope I make it that far.

                      Let me ask this if I can. Did he like to shoot? And if so did he get to in his later years?



          • there is a very informative video online of 2 gentlemen from “across the pond”showing them setting up a sidewheel scope for using it’s mildots in the hunting part of the video, which follows.
            The sound went out on my computer so I’m having a hard time locating it, or I would’ve already placed it here for everyone’s consideration.


            • Is that the guys always shootin rats and about 25% of the time rabbits? If it is I’ve watched a lot of that guy (with his friend often times?) and there’s a ton of good trajectory/ballistics/sighting vids from him. I’ll have to go find his info too


              • Could be, I just don’t feel comfortable sharing something on this blog without it first being thoroughly scrutinized,so My search has ended until I have audio restored. You’ll know when you see the target with all the misses below the bullseye indicating how much drop has occurred and marked for what range it was fired from.

                Reb



            • Reb
              Did you get to see the video? Its ok if you don’t get it posted. I will have to see what I find. I will post it if I find it. You can tell me if its the one your talking about.


              • I hope someone shares it this weekend, It goes through all the steps of how to set up for various ranges, and with limited power(12fpe rule).If I see it you can bet your favorite airgun I’ll be chiming in!

                Reb



                • Are you talking about the .177 vs .22 video with the stout British personality? Shows the difference in pellet drop at ranges between, obviously, .177 and .22… really good showing trajectory in that one. Search .177 vs .22 and its one of the first things/videos that comes up.



                • Reb that was a good video Jay posted.

                  That’s the same thing I did. Only I had targets setting at different distances and I stayed in one place. The person in the video had one target and he moved farther away from the target to the correct distance away then aimed dead center of that bulls eye he has drawn for that distance.

                  After he shot at all the red bulls eyes if you look at where the pellet hits by the bulls eye and look from left to right and do like I said. Circle the pellet holes by each bulls eye then start at the left and draw a line to each bulls eye group of pellets that you circled. You can see how the pellet flew through the air. The line you drew makes a arch. The red bulls eyes are where the pellet is at in the air if you were able to take a picture of the pellet while it was flying at that precise time. I hope I didn’t confuse things the way I explained it.

                  But if you do what the video shows you can tell what any pellet you get flys like. What to look for is the pellet that shows the less arch. More of a sraight line. But the line will always drop off rapidly towards the end of its flight. That pellet will make you be on target easier with out having to hold over or under when you shoot.


              • I watched it about 6 months ago so it would take a lotta searchin’ to dig up through the search history on my computer,otherwise it would be here already.


    • Jay,I’l have to read your comment a few more times before I fully comprehend& retain all the info in it but it sound good! Welcome to the blog! I anticipate many brilliant “guud covusations(ala The last Samurai)” with you and the other members here!

      Reb


  4. I think this will be a interesting weekend blog. I (cant) wait if you know what I mean.

    I just had to say that.



      • .17HMR was added in the recent years — it wasn’t available in the version I’d downloaded on my old computer, four or five years ago.

        Technically, since the equations don’t change, the program theoretically should handle anything one can define parameters for (the pellet database), but they’ve probably put in some artificial limits — maybe to sell a program for firearms? Given the .17HMR, what if one used .17HM2 velocity — or the velocity of the old center-fire .17 caliber?


  5. This is interesting to me. I race a motorcycle to set land speed records. Aerodynamics is what it’s all about. Just some amazing facts. A round ball hit with a golf club will fly fifty yards. But with the dimples it will go three hundred yards. But putting dimples on say ,the front of a pellet will do nothing. The size of the dimples compared to the size of the ball. And the speed and rotation are all factors to consider.
    The other thing I deal with is the fact that I can go 100 mph with 26 hp. To go 200 mph takes over 200 hp. I am now going to make a study of ballistic coefficient. This should add to my confusion on the whole subject.



    • I had my ’78 Yamaha SR 500 putting out 24HP before taking a 7″curb straight up@50 mph. Came outta nowhere! It ran outta power @ 98mph. Lotta work in that bike!My next one is gonna be a Suzuki DR 370 as soon as I spend $20 with Gasketman for a copper head gasket. already got the bike, just needs a head gasket!

      Reb


      • Head gasket.com can make anything you need in a gasket. I have a 250 cc four stroke putting out 61 hp with a top speed so far of 123 mph. But that was not a good run. I am looking for 130 in September.


        • Wow, That’s a lotta power for one cylinder! my 500 already had a 32mm carb,Supertapp,1.75″ head pipe,and oil cooler when I traded my Ke100 for it.The previous owner told me that the oil cooler alone was a 5hp mod!Sure do miss that lil KE! I’ll be getting another one as soon I’m financially able.

          Reb



            • Racer X
              You ever heard of the 73/74 Yamaha SC 500 MX . I rode one back in the late 70s and into the 80s and it is the fastest dirt bike of that era that was made besides the Maico 501which is a twin cylinder two stroke. My SC is a single cylinder two stroke that weighs 210 pounds full of fluids and puts 45 hp on the ground at the rear tire, has four gears and does 105 mph in stock gearing and will do 80 mph wheelies with just the twist of the throttle no clutching or popping of the front end needed. They were only made a year and a half from mid 73 thru 74, I have a parts bike and a mint condition one that I still own . I can no longer ride it due to health reasons, but have always wanted to make it in to a dual sport bike because stop light to stop light there would not be much to keep up with it if you can keep the front wheel down. It would do 100 mph in less than 1/8 mile when I was younger and able to control it.
              Mike


        • In all my discussions with various bike mechanics, including Paul Zabor of Zabor’s motorcycle shop in Austin(Very busy man and reminds me of talking toTim McMurray),the major problem with Suzuki is the way they design the cylinder/head connection, The bike I have came as partial payment for cleaning out a rental property, when I kicked it over(checking for compression)it was clear that about 1″ of head gasket had blown out on the left side,I hope it doesn’t look too ugly when I get in there because otherwise It has good compression(enough to blow your pant-leg around pretty good)and decent fire(a little orange).My intent is to address this issue before any other after my 2 stroke projects I have determined that copper is undeniably the best material for this application and Gasketman will build head gaskets, among other stuff To Spec! Just give him the info he asks for and some $ during the phone call and 6 weeks later it arrives! Wish me luck!I’ll probably be diving into it as a winter project, after I get my shop built this fall.

          Reb


          • Reb
            You need to check with Cometic gaskets ( cometic.com ) for head gaskets for the zuki. They make composition and copper gaskets for most all jap muscle bikes in different bore sizes and thickness and are top notch gaskets with no 6 week wait time. I own a 77 KZ 1000 that is a street legal 9.50 second drag bike with the slick and wheelie bars on it and all I run are cometic gaskets, it has a 1075cc kit in it with balanced and welded crank, ported and polished head, web 425 lift cams, 36 mm mikuni flatslides, MRE lockup clutch, race cut trans, warrior reversion header and much more little tricks to make it go fast and live a long time. there is no need to wait for quality gaskets and such. Go to (z1enterprises.com) for good prices on everything you would need to build your Zuki with
            Mike


  6. I got this off the web a while back, from someone who compiled it from that chairgun site.

    Air Rifle Pellet Database (20/07/09)
    A Collection of Ballistic Data for Air Rifle Pellets
    data kindly provided by the author of the Chairgun website

    Calibre Pellet BC Weight
    0.177 AA Field 0.021 8.4
    0.177 Beeman Bearcub 0.011 8.0
    0.177 Beeman Crow Magnum 0.013 8.8
    0.177 Beeman FTS 0.014 8.9
    0.177 Beeman H+N Match 0.012 8.0
    0.177 Beeman H+N Match HS 0.007 7.5
    0.177 Beeman Kodiak 0.023 10.5
    0.177 Beeman Kodiak Match 0.024 10.5
    0.177 Beeman Laser 0.010 6.5
    0.177 Beeman Laser Sport 0.011 7.7
    0.177 Beeman Perfect Rounds 0.014 7.7
    0.177 Beeman Ram Jet 0.017 9.8
    0.177 Beeman Silver Ace 0.010 8.0
    0.177 Beeman Silver Arrow 0.018 11.5
    0.177 Beeman Silver Bear 0.010 7.0
    0.177 Beeman Silver Jet 0.013 8.4
    0.177 Beeman Silver Sting 0.010 8.5
    0.177 Beeman Trophy 0.019 7.9
    0.177 Benj Sheridan Diablo 0.023 7.9
    0.177 Bisley Long Range Gold 0.019 7.7
    0.177 Bisley Magnum 0.025 10.5
    0.177 Bisley Pest Control 0.012 8.8
    0.177 Bisley Practice 0.010 7.2
    0.177 Bisley Premier 0.016 11.4
    0.177 Bisley Superfield 0.020 8.5
    0.177 BSA Elite 0.018 8.0
    0.177 BSA Excalibur 0.011 7.5
    0.177 BSA Lazapell 0.019 9.0
    0.177 BSA Storm 0.019 7.4
    0.177 Crosman Accupell 0.021 7.9
    0.177 Crosman Copperhead Pointed 0.028 7.9
    0.177 Crosman Copperhead Wadcutter 0.010 7.9
    0.177 Crosman Powapell 0.019 7.9
    0.177 Crosman Premier Heavy 0.026 10.5
    0.177 Crosman Premier Lites 0.023 7.9
    0.177 Crosman Verminpell 0.010 7.9
    0.177 DayState 4.51 0.018 8.4
    0.177 Daystate FT 0.022 8.5
    0.177 Dynamic PCP1 0.018 8.0
    0.177 Dynamic PPP1 0.007 6.9
    0.177 Dynamic SN1 0.015 8.0
    0.177 Dynamic TM1 0.018 9.5
    0.177 Eley Wasp 0.011 7.4
    0.177 Exterminator 0.026 9.5
    0.177 Exterminator FAC 0.034 15.0
    0.177 Gamo Match 0.013 8.0
    0.177 Gamo Pro-Magnum 0.012 8.0
    0.177 Gamo Pro-Match 0.021 8.0
    0.177 Gamo Rocket 0.013 8.0
    0.177 Gamo Round 0.018 8.0
    0.177 Gamo TS-10 0.018 7.5
    0.177 H+N Baracuda 0.025 10.5
    0.177 H+N Crow Magnum 0.013 8.8
    0.177 H+N Crow Magnum 0.024 10.5
    0.177 H+N Diabolo Sport 0.014 8.0
    0.177 H+N FTT 0.022 8.5
    0.177 H+N Hollow Point 0.010 7.0
    0.177 H+N Silver Point 0.016 11.5
    0.177 H+N Spitz 0.010 8.5
    0.177 JSB Exact 0.021 8.4
    0.177 JSB Exact Express 0.021 7.9
    0.177 JSB Exact Heavy 0.031 10.3
    0.177 Logun Penetrator 0.026 9.5
    0.177 Marksman FTS 0.021 8.5
    0.177 Round 0.018 8.0
    0.177 RWS Club 0.010 7.0
    0.177 RWS CO2 0.011 7.7
    0.177 RWS Hobby 0.010 7.0
    0.177 RWS Hollowpoint 0.010 7.4
    0.177 RWS Meisterkugeln 0.010 8.3
    0.177 RWS Meisterkugen Pistol 0.011 7.7
    0.177 RWS R10 Heavy 0.010 8.3
    0.177 RWS R10 Light 0.010 7.7
    0.177 RWS Super Mag 0.012 9.5
    0.177 RWS Superdome 0.013 8.3
    0.177 RWS Superpoint 0.010 8.3
    0.177 TechForce Dome (Chinese) 0.012 8.5
    0.177 TechForce Wadcutter (Chinese) 0.010 7.7
    0.177 Webley Mosquito Express 0.021 7.9
    0.2 Beeman Crow Magnum 0.017 12.5
    0.2 Beeman FTS 0.020 11.0
    0.2 Beeman H+N Match 0.016 11.9
    0.2 Beeman Kodiak 0.025 13.3
    0.2 Beeman Laser 0.010 9.0
    0.2 Beeman Ram Jet 0.011 11.5
    0.2 Beeman Silver Ace 0.013 11.4
    0.2 Beeman Silver Arrow 0.016 15.4
    0.2 Beeman Silver Bear 0.006 9.8
    0.2 Beeman Silver Jet 0.015 11.3
    0.2 Beeman Silver Sting 0.011 10.4
    0.2 Benj Sheridan Cylindrical 0.023 14.3
    0.2 Benj Sheridan Diablo 0.025 14.3
    0.2 Bisley Magnum 0.027 13.3
    0.2 Bisley Pest Control 0.012 12.4
    0.2 Bisley Superfield 0.018 11.4
    0.2 Crosman Premier 0.026 14.3
    0.2 H+N FTT 0.025 11.5
    0.2 JSB Exact 0.030 13.5
    0.22 AA Field 0.031 15.9
    0.22 AA Hunter 0.023 15.9
    0.22 Accupell 0.027 16.0
    0.22 Beeman Bearcub 0.023 16.0
    0.22 Beeman Crow Magnum 0.022 18.1
    0.22 Beeman FTS 0.016 14.5
    0.22 Beeman H+N Match 0.011 13.5
    0.22 Beeman Kodiak 0.036 21.1
    0.22 Beeman Laser 0.009 13.4
    0.22 Beeman Ram Jet 0.016 14.8
    0.22 Beeman Silver Ace 0.014 15.0
    0.22 Beeman Silver Arrow 0.012 17.1
    0.22 Beeman Silver Bear 0.011 12.5
    0.22 Beeman Silver Jet 0.012 15.5
    0.22 Beeman Silver Sting 0.012 15.5
    0.22 Beeman Trophy 0.015 14.0
    0.22 Benj Sheridan Diablo 0.020 14.3
    0.22 Bisley Long Range Gold 0.023 13.9
    0.22 Bisley Magnum 0.035 21.0
    0.22 Bisley Pest Control 0.023 18.1
    0.22 Bisley Practice 0.012 13.5
    0.22 Bisley Superfield 0.022 15.0
    0.22 BSA Elite 0.019 13.8
    0.22 BSA Excalibur 0.019 15.0
    0.22 BSA Lazapell 0.015 16.0
    0.22 Crosman Accupell 0.026 14.3
    0.22 Crosman Pointed 0.024 14.3
    0.22 Crosman Powapell 0.025 14.3
    0.22 Crosman Premier 0.019 14.3
    0.22 Crosman Verminpell 0.013 14.3
    0.22 Dynamic PCP2 0.016 14.5
    0.22 Dynamic SN2 0.014 12.9
    0.22 Dynamic TAC2 0.012 14.5
    0.22 Dynamic TM2 0.022 14.5
    0.22 Dynamic XP2 0.012 14.5
    0.22 Eley Magnum 0.032 30.0
    0.22 Exterminator 16 0.026 16.1
    0.22 Exterminator 18 0.028 18.0
    0.22 Exterminator 20.5 0.032 20.5
    0.22 Gamo Match 0.014 13.9
    0.22 Gamo Pro-Magnum 0.012 16.0
    0.22 Gamo TS-18 0.018 17.8
    0.22 H+N FTT 0.029 14.8
    0.22 JSB – AofAZ Pointed 0.016 16.0
    0.22 JSB – Daystate FT 0.029 16.0
    0.22 JSB Exact 0.031 15.9
    0.22 RWS Eun Jin 0.035 27.8
    0.22 RWS Hobby 0.012 11.8
    0.22 RWS Meisterkugeln 0.010 13.9
    0.22 RWS Super H Point 0.011 13.9
    0.22 RWS Superdome 0.016 14.5
    0.22 RWS Supermag 0.014 14.4
    0.22 RWS Superpoint 0.011 14.3
    0.22 Webley Lazapell 0.015 14.0
    0.22 Webley Mosquito Express 0.028 14.3
    0.25 Beeman Crow Magnum 0.011 26.1
    0.25 Beeman H+N Match 0.012 21.6
    0.25 Beeman Kodiak 0.037 30.6
    0.25 Beeman Ram Jet 0.012 24.1
    0.25 Bisley Pest Control 0.015 26.1
    0.25 Bisley Superfield 0.028 24.3
    0.25 Bisley Superfield 0 0.028 24.3
    0.25 BSA Pylarm 0.020 18.3
    0.25 Dai Sung 0.020 19.5
    0.25 Gamo Hunter 0.014 20.3
    0.25 H+N Baracuda 0.042 31.0
    0.25 H+N FTT 0.024 20.0
    0.25 H+N Ram Point 0.019 27.1
    0.25 Logun Penetrator 0.030 25.0


    • Jim,

      I few days ago I asked here about a source of information on BC for airgun pellets, and searching the web a little more I found this table.

      So, if BC depends on velocity, at which velocities were these numbers determined?




        • That’s why I liked messing with the pump guns. They are a very good gun to learn about trajectory’s and the coefficient of pellets.

          Every time we talk about trajectory or BC I keep remembering the blog you did when you visited that field target shoot that Dave Enoch was at. And I cant remember the mans name that was there with the I believe it was a Benjamin pump gun. And he was doing a standing shot and he looks at you BB and said that shot at that distance looks like about a 6 pumper. Or something similar like what I described. Now that’s knowing your pellets BC if you know what I mean.


          • GF1,

            The man is Ron Robinson and the gun is a Sheridan Blue Streak. He uses just one pellet and he has a printed list of the number of pumps his gun needs for the distance to the target.

            B.B.


          • Gunfun1
            Your statement about knowing your pumpers power settings hit it right on the head. back in my teens with my crosman 1400 I had shot it enough to know it that well also by knowing how many pumps it needed to reach the distance and power I needed to kill what I was shooting be it Tweety bird or the ever elusive golden brown raccoon that I hunted for five years and was never able to put him in the bag. We used to kill the raccoons to skin them and make coon skin caps like Daniel Boone wore on TV and that golden brown coon was the smartest or luckiest coon I had ever hunted because I took more shots at him than I can count but it seemed like he could hear the hammer hit the valve stem of my 1400 and would move right after I would pull the trigger. The only other animal I hunted that was that elusive was when I went Grouse hunting in West Virginia at 10 years old with my dad. We were walking thru the woods and stopped to listen and look around for them in the leaves on the forest floor and low and be hold I was standing there with one right between my legs and when he took off and caught me totally off guard I was able to get three shots off at him and he would duck behind a tree just as the firing pin would hit the shell and the bark on those three trees was testament that I was on target but not as smart as that Grouse was. They were the most challenging birds I ever did hunt.
            Mike


            • Hows it going buldawg76.

              You know you made me remember something again when you talked about hunting the grouse. We use to hunt quail with shot guns. We had some hunting dogs that me and my buddy would take out with us hunting. The dogs would always go crazy when we got to our hunting spot when we let them out of the truck. We would let them run to kind of get the excitement out of their system. Well we were starting to walk into the woods and I didn’t take 2 steps and a quail flew right between my legs from behind. I almost did you know what in my pants. It must of been under the tail gate of the truck we were sitting on the whole time while we were waiting for the dogs to settle down.

              I wasn’t worth a darn that day. It seemed like everytime the dogs were on some quail one would come from somewhere and spook the heck out of me. I told my buddy I was stopping for a while and I was going to watch. Well he got it next. The dogs were off out in front of him and about 5 took of over his head. I never laughed so hard in my life. It looked like he jumped a mile high.

              My buddy. He always was skin’n rabbits, squirrels and such. He got him a coon when we where young. We were probably about 12 or 13 years old and he still has the hat that he made out of the coon skin. I never did none of that. But we sure did have fun back then and I still have my Crosman 760. I can not get rid of that gun. To many memories every time I pick it up.

              And have you got any more shooting done with your dragon gun?


          • I’ve been using my Airmaster to get used to pumping again.I had taken my 392 to the job site so I would have something to do, in case I got bored working on Terry’s truck.I went pretty much straight to the hospital from there so my 392 has been in good care but I’ve been missing it! I’ll be getting over there today, along with some other necessary running.I definitely won’t be missing having to reload the AM because the pellet keeps flipping around backwards and may even try loading it left handed.
            Overdid it yesterday so my legs are exhausted and very weak today but otherwise things are coming along Real Good, back to about 30 percent!

            Reb


            • Reb just keep going on buddy. You will get there. And who ever thought that air guns could be used as therapy. :)


              • Actually my occupational therapist was all over the idea when I told him I had one torn down, he loved it but suddenly the reality of it involving a gun crashed the idea; “Not in My Hospital!”

                Reb


                • Reb well of course not at the hospital. Your now at home. And I was talking about the loading the pellet, the pumping and the aiming of the gun. And most important the hitting the target. Thats the therapy Im talking about. :)


      • Hi Fred,

        I dont know what the velocity was that he used to create that table. But it is useful to compare different pellets against each other. Also, I use it with the B.C tables that are in the back of American Airguns by House. That lists for each BC a range of velocities and the corresponding trajectories. Thats a good book, but those BC tables make it really useful.

        Jim


        • Jim, that’s how I use this table too.

          It is a good reference, so long as you don’t swear by these figures and use them indiscriminately.

          For most shooters, BC is a data required by some computerized trajectory calculator. In real life, it doesn’t take a lot of shooting to see that the predicted trajectory may be affected by so may factors that, in the end, it is just a reference.


    • Jim
      That chart is a very good guide to help in picking the right pellet for your guns characteristics and the intended purpose. I have been performing some tuning on a new FD PCP .22 cal rifle and have gotten it where I was happy with the fps strings I was getting in the mid 800s with Exact jumbos of 21.12 gr then tried some crosman premiers domed and got mid 900s at 14.3 gr and then just to see tried some Gamo pellets I had that I can’t remember the name but they are the one with the BB made into the front and by the fps of low 1000s I would have to think they are lighter than the premiers at 14.3gr. I was not expecting to see those velocities out of them and I shoot at a target in my backyard of just over 10 meters ( 37 feet) into a plywood backing with old washing machine panels screwed on over the plywood. All the plain lead pellets just leave good dents and flatten out completely, but those gamo with BB in the front end really surprised me and put hole thru the metal and were stuck in the plywood. The chart has given me a great chart to narrow down my choice of pellets for different uses.
      Thanks Mike


      • I tryed the .177 Rockets in my Disco and with good results. Even at longer ranges they were good. But there was two things that bothered me about that pellet. I would get a flier every now and then. And they where a bit expensive. And both of them things I don’t like at all.

        If they were cheaper and the consistency of the pellet would be better I would be still be using them.

        That’s the problem with this BC thing. A quality pellet needs to be produced to be able to get data of how efficient a pellet flys through the sky.

        I remember when the Camaro changed body styles in the early 80′s. They talked about how the windshield was layed back more and that helped it perform better and it would get better gas mileage. They talked about the coefficient of less drag that the layed back windshield would create.

        But funny thing about that. All the Camaro’s body styles could produce the same results lets say in the drag racing world. If you had the right power and your tune was consistent. Any one of the different shape Camaro’s could compete against each other with winning results.

        So what I guess I’m saying about pellets and air guns is. You have to find that accurate pellet. You need to know how your going to use your gun. Then you need to learn how that pellet performs when it fly’s. If it dont fly the way you like. Well I guess its time for that pellet to fly. And then on to the next.


        • A quarter mile drag race is not the place where Cd really matters, or will show up… Your drag racer is basically running full throttle and most of the differences between runs of the same cars would be in differences in shift timing.

          But take those different Cd models on a paced (60mph, say) from NY to LA, and see which one requires less full-ups on the trip. After all, in one is talking a difference of 0.2mpg, on cars that are in the 20mpg vicinity (say 20 and 20.2, respectively) at 60mph you’d see a difference of (20 gallon tank), 400miles vs 404miles for the first tank. Or putting it the other, for a 4000 trip one car will use 200 gallons, the other will use 198 gallons.


          • Wulfraed
            Think a little more about what you said.

            A quarter mile race has less amount of distance and time to take advantage of a body design. Every llittle bit will help.

            The pro stock racers are so strung out on engine design and the best body shape for airflow efficiancy it aint funny.

            They are at the point were they are spending thousands and thousands of dollars to make 1 horsepower or 1 mph. You want to see close racing watch the pro stock class. They are worried about how the car moves down the track.


            • Modern NASCAR is so controlled, that “stock car” probably doesn’t apply…

              There was a bit of a scandal a few decades ago when drivers claimed one team had to be cheating due to the amount of races they one. Officials checked the engine, transmission, fuel, tires, etc. and didn’t find anything…

              Until they put the templates for the “stock body” over the car… The discovered that while the car looked to match the stock body, the entire car was something like one inch away from all templates (front to back profile, side-to-side profile).

              NASCAR and F1 basically limit the cars to “equality” (barring tire compound and small adjustments in the “wings”).

              Anyone remember the Chaparral 2J — eventually disqualified as the combination of ground effect skirts and “cooling fans” created an illegal down force on the rear wheels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaparral_Cars#2J

              Minute trivia — I used to have an HO scale electric racing car of that model; even without the powered fans, it WAS a reliable racer against the cars of my brother and father.


              • Wulfraed
                Did you ever hear the story about Smokey Yunick back in the early sixties he was accused of cheating because he could go 5 to 6 laps more than any other nascar team at the time. when nascar inspected his cars fuel system they could not find any thing that was hot to spec for the rules at the time, they had the fuel tank out to measure for capacity and found it to within spec. He got pissed off at the nascar tech inspectors because they were going to impound the car for the next two races to make him use his back up car while they did more investigations. in his typical Smokey Yunick style and attitude he proceeded to get in his car and drive away with the gas tank still sitting on the ground out of the car. his shop was about 1 1/2 miles from the Daytona super speed way and he drove the back to his shop. The tech officials finally got the car back to perform further checks and when they inspected the fuel line on the car they found that he had run 1 inch diameter fuel lines up and down the frame rails giving him about 5 gallons of extra fuel than what the tank held. There was no rule in nascars rule book that stated as to the size the fuel lines had to be only the size of the fuel tank. He was a very crafty racer that found every loophole he could to get a advantage. Those were the good ole days when the cars they raced were basically the same car you could by at a dealer hence the phrase “Win on Sunday and Sell on Monday. The cars they race today are as far from the true meaning and form of racing that nascar was created for as the term nascar stands for ‘North American Stock Car Auto Racing, so where does a Toyota become a North American Stock Car. they were also door slammer back then to and that why I do not have any desire to watch a demolition derby of cars that are no where near a stock anymore. I will stick with endurance racing series that run from 2hr 45 minute to 24 hours nonstop in rain or shine. Nascar driver are a bunch of light weights because they are afraid to race in the rain, just put grooved rain tires on and race. every other form of auto racing run rain or shine including motorcycles so why not the wimpy nascar drivers.
                Mike


          • Wulfraed
            Think about what you said.

            There is less distance in a quarter mile than what distance you said in your example.


        • I would also like to point out that what you said about shift timing being a major factor in elapsed time, that wheel spin is much more of a determining factor, including shift point spin.
          ~Accentuate the positive~!

          Reb


          • Reb that is right. I always thought it was funny to hear what some people would say when I would tell them that my car just ran a faster MPH (mile per hour) and that my ET (ending time) was slower when I spun the tires.

            I knew right away when I looked at my time slip how much tire spin I had that I couldn’t feel when I was making that run. MPH would go up and ET would be slower.

            And again so many variables that can take place in anything you do.


        • Hey Gunfun
          Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I was helping a friend with his pontoon boat outboard. I have got some more shooting time on my FD PCP and actually went and put the original valve spring back in it as it was too much of an air hog with the lighter spring. With the spring seat that I made for the front of the spring where it sits in the valve body it has slightly more tension on the valve spring than stock by about.025″ which is the thickness of the hat setup that I used to help keep the spring centered in the valve and also help keep the valve straight because the hole in the rear half of the valve body is not as tight of a fit to the valve stem as it needs to be and it allows the valve to cock very slightly in the body. not enough to prevent it from dealing as the HPA would push it tight against the seat, but it is just too loose a fit for me and the spring hat helps keep it straight. I plan to make a new rear half of the valve body when I get a 3 in 1 setup and probably put a o-ring at the stem hole to seal it completely as some of the air that pushes the pellet is lost around the loose fit of the stem to valve body. The results I stated in the last thread were from the original spring and hat I just mentioned. The hat I made was form a threaded anchor that would be used to hold two pieces of wood together with a screw as it is threaded and with a round washer shaped base that would prevent it from being pulled thru the hole in the wood, you can get them at any hardware store, I think this one is for a 6-32 screw You just have to make sure it fit in the front half of the valve body and I would recommend you check the one you get and use this mod to help center the valve . Of course you could make a new rear half at work to fit the stem tighter and make a seat for the front of the spring also, I just had the anchor in my junk screw drawer and it fit and works good. I am now going to play with the hammer spring adjustment to use the lowest hammer spring setting and still keep the fps I had with the heavy, medium (CPs) and light Gamo rockets to use as little air as possible to get better number of shots and that’s is where I will stop at as I like the fps numbers I got with the different weight pellets. So I use the right pellet for what I am shooting at.
          Mike


          • Buldawg I cant wait to get my gun to see what their made of.

            I think that was a wise choice to put the heavier spring back in the valve. I like to have the spring pressure there to keep that valve from having a slow leak like alot of people see with PCP guns. Especially if it is a design were the striker rests on the valve stem.

            What I do with my Crosman/Benjamin PCP guns is I set the striker so it has the most stroke or distance that it can travel. I put a heavier spring behind the striker and use the minimum amount of pressure I can to get the fps I want. It makes a smoother more consistent gun.

            I was looking at the trigger design and I think I would set it so the sear engages the striker so it has the most stroke or distance to travel. Then run less pressure on the striker spring. That’s how I’m going to set mine up. You can get away with a low fill pressure that way. I don’t never touch the stroke adjustment of the striker anymore after I have it set for the longer travel. I just mess with fill pressure and striker spring tension to tune the gun.

            But I think it will be a fun gun though. I cant wait to get mine. I already said that didn’t I. :)


            • Gunfun
              That’s exactly how I have mine set with the trigger all the way back as far as it will go, some people have stated that with it all the way to the rear it the bolt will not go back enough to engage sear, but mine worked fine so there are obliviously some variations in tolerances. Overall I am very happy with mine for 100 bucks. I bet you can’t wait, but I believe you will be happy with the gun as they are really a good design and easy to work on, I can have it stripped down and change the valve spring and back together to shoot in an hour taking my time. I took the most tome polishing the hammer to sear contact surface as it is very rough and then polishing the sear and trigger contact points, boy did that make a world of difference in the trigger smoothness. The design of this gun is like you state where the hammer does rest on the valve stem when not cocked so I see your point of having a heavier spring in the valve. I have the striker as far back as it will go to give the most travel and now just have to find the sweet spot where it maintains the velocities I have achieved on the lowest spring setting I can use and keep the fps as they are now with the different weight pellets. The 14th is just around the corner. let me know how your tuning goes. Do you know of any pellets in the 14 to 16 gr range that are a bullet shape like the rabbit magnums just lighter. Next come testing for accuracy.
              Mike


              • buldawg
                If it ships on the 14th I’m thinking it will still take a few days to get to me. Maybe if I’m lucky I will have it by the weekend. I hope.

                And my connection stopped working for some reason. I left you a reply down below where you posted about pellets.


                • Gunfun
                  I checked into the pellets you told me about (dynamic and defiant) it appears they are made in Britain and only sold over here thru Airguns of Arizona and are definitely on the very pricey side like 25 bucks for 200 not including shipping. I liked the weights but if I do decide to cough that much for them they would only be for hunting as they are too costly for target shooting. I am surprised that there are no companies stateside that make one like them except for the plastic and lead combo pellets. I think they would sell if the price was reasonable. I was born in Britain on a US air force base, I knew I should have claimed dual citizenship when I went in at 18 to get my social security card transferred to me cause they asked if I was a British, dual or American citizen. I only lived in Britain for my first six months so I said American.LOL
                  Mike


                  • buldawg I think the reliants were 400 for the 25 dollars. And the other ones were only 200 for 25 dollars. The last ones I mentioned are lead free if Im rembering right.

                    And yes I like the shape of those pellets also. The .177 JSB 10.3′s are simmilar in shape and they are a very good pellet. I wish there were more made that way also.


                    • Gunfun
                      The only place I could find the defiant pellets was on ebay and those sellers do not ship to the U.S. I checked out the dynamics at Airguns Of Arizona, but they only show the price and I could not find how to order online they want you to call them and I just have not got to doing that yet. I don’t remember the pellet counts for sure I just know they are expensive and I am going to use up my supplies of the JSB and CPs first as I have several tins and boxes of them. I will eventually get some of the non Diablos before it is all said and done they will be for hunting only.
                      Mike


              • buldawg you mentioned your gun was kind of loud the way you had it set. I don’t know if you heard of these before. I know people that have used them so I was throwing this out there for ya. They are a good product.

                Have you ever heard of tko muzzle brakes. He makes them for the flying dragon pcp gun and other guns. Here’s his web site and if you look down the right side of the home page about a third of the way down you will see the place to order. It lists the qb78/qb79 and the xs60. Anyway thought maybe you would be interested.
                http://www.tko22.com/


                • Gunfun
                  Yea I have read discussions and threads about the TKO breaks. I am not that concerned about the noise so much as I live outside city limits and the county has no laws that pertain to pellet guns or noise and all my neighbors do not object as most of them are at work when I am shooting any way. And all of them are Pro gun so a little gun noise just tells them that I am improving my shooting skills for when we will need those skills to survive ( not to long from now I think) and put food on the table for all of us. I was reading thru the web site and got the impression that the breaks not only suppress noise but also help performance is that correct because that would help me justify the 78.00 cost of one for my 60c. I would also think about one for my old 1400 and 2289 that are quite loud also when pumped beyond the 10 pump range. Also what are your thoughts on a regulator that I have read about that goes in the air tube of marauders and other PCPs and do you know if they really help with increasing shot count and if there is one that would fit in the tube of the 60c. let me know your thoughts as you have been dealing with PCPs way longer than I have. I am still learning a lot but just using my common sense and experience from being a mechanic for 45 years to test what I think is good changes.
                  Mike


                  • buldawg I don’t know everything about this air gun stuff. But it sure is fun learning it. :)

                    But as far as muzzle brakes even the tko brakes I believe help cancel some barrel vibration. So this is my opinion. I think they do help make a gun more accurate. I have compared targets from a gun to see the difference it makes with or without it in accuracy. But again thats what I have seen when I tryed it.

                    And about the regulators that you put in a gun. Again this is my opinion other people may think different. BB has talked about them before and a couple points he brought up that stand out to me. One is It does help give a flat velocity curve witch should make a gun group more consistent. So that I like. But here is what I don’t like. BB said just like anything they could fail. So I don’t want to add something to my gun that could make more problems later on.

                    Like I say simple but effective. I will try to make the gun shoot its best with the least amount of work. To me it makes me fill like the gun will be more dependable.

                    And I was just about ready to hit the submit button and I just got my shipping conformation for the dragon gun. I’m a happy camper right now. :) :) :)


                    • Gunfun
                      The kid in the candy store right now huh. I just got done sending you another reply about the TKOs and at this time I can’t afford one, but also am leery of their use for the reasons in the last reply I sent. and like you said about the regulators it is something else to fail even though it is easily removed if I was out in the woods and did not have the tool to remove it ruin an otherwise good day. The friend I helped this weekend with his boat has just told me I have permission for free access to hunt or shoot on his 115 acres of land right of the river here. When we were riding around in his ranger side four seater side by side we saw 5 big turkeys a whole bunch of squirrels and rabbits and a deer. You can bet I will be putting a turkey on the table soon and definitely for thanksgiving and Christmas because he said that in the winter time they don’t use the river house at all and I would be the only person allowed to hunt on his land so it would be mine to hunt whenever I wanted to, can’t wait for some wild turkey sandwiches. please look into the stuff I talked to you about in the last reply.
                      Mike


                    • Gunfun
                      I am replying here to this thread because there was no reply link at the end of your last message. Yes it was definitely better times when we grew up. I truly think that the Internet is a great thing and also a very dangerous thing at the same time as it can be used for both good and bad without the average individual knowing the difference or realizing that it is happening to them. If TKOs do not alter the sound of the gun but merely redirect the muzzle blast preferably upward to help barrel rise I would possibly consider one, but if they cancel any amount of the decibel level of the guns report then it is a definite no. I have no experience with them so can’t make educated decision and don’t have 72+ bucks to spare right now anyway. I wish we could turn back the hands of time, would make a lot of different choices for sure. let me know when you get your 60c, I am picking up a new Ruger10/22 in camo trim tomorrow that I got from targetsportsusa.com for 180.00 with free shipping. already have one in Arch Angel AR composite kit look a like with enough mags to hold empty a 500 round brick with.
                      mike


                  • Gunfun
                    I just got done reading several threads at the GTA site and reading BBs article he wrote for Pyramidair on the TKO item and I don’t know if you are aware of the issues of legality of these items or not even though they would be on a airgun. But it would be worth your while to at the very least read the article that BB wrote for Pyramidair on the possible consequence’s of ownership of such items. BB please feel free to reiterate your views on this subject as I agree with you 100% on the use of said items. I myself am not willing to test the gov’t on their tolerance of using those items. Gunfun I don’t know if you have/use them but you should at least inform yourself of the issues that could be suffered from their use/ownership. As I said in my last reply I am not concerned with the report of my air guns as the neighborhood I live in is a small very close knit group of like minded citizens that strongly believe in the second amendment and our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
                    Mike


                    • buldawg thanks for the concern. I shoot with both of my neighbors. Noise is not a concern for me either.

                      Nothing like rules and regulations. And Im willing to bet its only going to get worse.

                      Its funny when I was a kid I didnt even think there was such a thing as a quiet gun. But we didnt have the internet back then either. Goes to show you that making advances in technology might not really be a good thing.

                      Definatly a simpler way off life back then.


  7. B.B.,

    What an amazing report! Absolutely fascinating. Thank you! (And thanks to those of you with insight who are chiming in.)

    Question: I have a chrony, and it so happens, access to an old model radar gun. Might a radar gun fixed to a post perpendicular to and slightly in front of the target, rigged to remain “on,” be able to stand in for a second chrony?

    Michael


    • Michael,

      A radar gun sends a radio signal and is also a receiver for that signal. In order for a radar gun to work properly it must bounce the signal off the object and receive the signal. Your radar gun would have to be mounted in a path parallel to your pellets path and I doubt it would pick up the signal from a small object like a pellet.

      kevin


    • Michael,

      Even if what Kevin said wasn’t a problem, it wouldn’t work. The radar gun would be reporting the pellet’s deceleration — not its velocity. The BC would always be in flux.

      B.B.


      • Well, most common speed (radar) guns work on the doppler principal. They determine the difference in frequency from the emitted pulse to that received (an object moving away from the gun will “stretch” the wavelength returned, hence lower frequency) and compute a speed from the difference (same a “red-shift” for determining galaxies’ distance — red-shift assumes everything was together, so the more shift, the faster it is moving, and the farther away it is).

        Whereas GPS computes velocity by assuming a straight line between two position measurements, and assuming a constant speed through the difference.


        • Well, it was just a thought, as I have access to the radar gun.

          Radar guns used to be very tricky and unpredictable. I don’t know about now, but I remember cop friends of mine telling me that they would have problems with the radar bouncing off of telephone poles and other stationary objects.

          So, I guess a chrony that has sensors 50 yards apart?

          Michael


    • Michael, When I was working in Austin, I had a friend who admitted to constant speeding infractions while driving his’78 Corvette, although he ran this car @120mph for most of his roadtrips and tried to avoid detection It’s still amazing that he never got a speeding ticket in that car! He swore this was due to the signal being so broken up by the shape of the nose of he car:Moral-Radar Ain’t that good!


    • Michael,your radar gun would probably work very well on something as big as a baseball or larger,anything too big for your Chrony.
      Reb


  8. B.B.,I just spent about an hour typing a reply to RifleDNA’s comment,the very first one for this blog, I believe it got caught by the spam filter for some reason and I also believe it to be a very important and valuable piece of information. Could you please review this comment and If you find it to be relevent, edit and place it accordingly?

    Reb




      • Mr. B.B

        Thanks for clarifying that. I would not want to write an article about calculating BC at various ranges, and I don’t think you would either. It would be long, complicated, and no one would do it anyway.;)

        Just go out and shoot, learn the gun and pellets, and most of all, HAVE A GOOD TIME! We need more shooters and less armchair ballistic experts.;)

        Jay






          • RidgeRunner,

            Ha Ha, you don’t know how close to home that was.;) My dad, 1960s engineer for Bell Labs, made me learn how to use a slide rule before going off to GT. I hated that ruler more than ever. But after almost 25 years, I still find myself using that darn thing every now and then.

            Jay



            • Reb,

              Trust me on this, be careful of what you wish for.;) I might just send you one if they still make them. Maybe Staedtler still does?

              Jay




                • Wuifraed,

                  You aren’t kidding! I think I paid about 30 bucks for mine in the late 80s, and that was expensive to me then. At least you use the pen, and I bet you never let anyone “borrow” it. Is the gun for protecting you or the pen?;) I will assume both.

                  Jay


                  • If it were smaller than 9mm, I’d say the pistol is for the mice… Especially the White-Footed Field mice (they are about three times the size of the little grey house mice) and drag my glue traps across the floor (I found one trap had been dragged behind a plastic bin of sunflower/corn feed, across the back of the shelving unit, up onto the adjacent shelving unit — where it had to be dragged over the upright edge of roofing square, across 12 inches of assorted tools, and finally wedged up next to some micro-fiber cleaning cloths… no mouse).

                    April was not a good month for mice — I snagged 13 of them in glue traps — 9 of them in less than a week; it was standing room only on the traps (THREE house mice caught in ONE trap?)


                • Wulfraed,

                  That is a heck of a mouse! I’m pretty sure a 240gn PDX1 would stop him and his buddies if you could get them to line up.;) Pop used to put a stick through a toilet paper roll and put the whole thing on top of a 1/4 filled bucket of water with a dab of peanut butter in the center of the roll. Mouse on stick, mouse on roll, mouse go bloop.

                  Jay


          • Uhm… I just finished a week on comp.lang.python that had a slide rule discussion…

            I’ve misplaced two of mine, but have SEVEN sitting in a book case next to the computer.


      • B.B.,
        So this mean the trajectory calculation software that produce an output of pellet drop and various ranges, is not spot on, but off by an inch or so?


  9. B.B.,After some research, I have determined that a shoulder stock may come in very handy, therefore a 2400KT would be more suitable for my needs .I have looked for this model in PA’s inventory with no luck.Is it just me or does PA not carry this model?
    Am I still confused and misinformed or do they just not carry it?
    I eagerly await your response.
    Reb





        • Sorry, didn’t answer your other questions up there… the pistol itself is very ergo. and of course has the long DA trigger, but points good and with only a clip and a half shot can say only that the sights are dead on horizontal but vertical the front post needs to be above flush. Reviews say its unbelievable on co2, like 200 shots per cartridge. I’ll keep you posted, but for the price, so far, Im very happy. I can only think the accessories will make it that much cooler, stable through the long trigger, I’ve always wondered about brakes on bb pistols so the front end of the kit has me the most intrigued. Everyone says a longer barrel to go through for the carbine would be good, I agree.


      • The one I built there comes with a skeleton stock and 18″ .22 barrel for$86.88
        Sure wish PA could beat that! I enjoy doing business with them more than any other online vendor so far!

        Reb



  10. Just made my best shot in a long time! Treetop Grackle @65 yards AM77& 7.9CPHPwith 10 pumps.Hit right below the eye he was looking back through!Never Knew what hit him-gone before he let go of the branch. Best recollection says this gun’s putting out over 10fpe(time to break out the Chrony again, remember the puppies ate all my notes while I was in the hospital).Can’t wait for my new carbine!

    Reb



      • Nice shot, that’s what, like a .5″ target? I did the math that 10ft/lbs with the 7.9gr is around 750fps, right? Chairgun tells me you had an almost 7″ drop to compensate for and that the pellet retained around 5.5ft/lbs of energy when punching out that pesky little bird… isn’t chairgun awesome?


        • RDNA
          Now that your playing around with the chairgun program and seeing what its about. Tell me how many milidots or half mildots of hold over was needed for Rebs shot?

          I obviously dont know the scope hieght or what the gun was zeroed at or at what angle the gun was held at to hit the bird up in the tree. But Im going to take a guess at the hold over. You tell me if Im right.

          2 mil dots.


          • Its telling me 3 dots at 10x magnification, which sounds about right, Im not proficient in the whole mildots thing, I am pretty much using them as a scale to estimate visually, still got a lot to learn for technically calculating pois, that’s why I work too hard to feel out my trajectory. How about at 9x mag.? That means my dots are further apart then the 10x figures eight? If the picture gets bigger the scale against it covers less space…. I need to learn this stuff up and down (get it?), it will make my life easier Im sure.


        • RifleDNA,Thanks for crunching those numbers! Judging from the impact I was guessing 6fpe, so I was close.This gun was last sighted @ 40 yards with 9.8 Winchester round nose so the 7.9 hit higher so my hold was crosshairs X Dead on . Another bit of very valuable info, I now know that I can run both these pellets Accurately @ different ranges with no adjustment whatsoever! Awesome!I will have to write that down! Now I’ll submit this comment so I can read your comment again to be sure I addressed everything I wanted to in it. have no Idea how to do the clipboard thingy and don’t know where to even start.Thanks again!

          Reb


          • No problem, I checked the paper that came with the scope and it doesn’t say dot on it, and this manual that came says “procedure for mounting on your Sierra Pro Air Rifle”…… Curious….. reticle type it just says crosshairs….. oh well, that’s why I hardly ever read owners manuals, not much to learn usually. That’s cool that you’ve done some effective mods, always glad when your tinkering produces something tangible, and awesome! I was just wondering why with pellets there are tons of w weights and with bbs its just 5.1, no lead core copper plated heavier .177 bbs? Or other formulations at all? Tom might have seen some somewhere…..


        • I remember the Chrony read 770 but can’t recall what pellet.I also stripped and blued my shroud and installed a piece of hose as a shim to tighten the barrel and am working on sealing the breech. As far as pump guns go I consider mine to be almost as powerful as a 397,the power is there it just needs to have all the leaks sealed.This gun will also dump 14 pumps without issue and is opened up for .177 lead ballsfor use as a repeater!

          Reb


        • Yes, this is the Remington Airmaster that I pulled outta the dumpster, in 3 pieces about 4 months ago,It cost me 18 cents for a barrel clamp nut because I couldn’t find one in all my junk!I am very proud of this gun. I believe It’s next mod will be an AO scope as I keep it set up for long range sniping but currently judging range is only guesswork.


          • No way! That’s great, freebies keep the world from nuclear holocaust… lol, someone was about to hit that button one day, but found an awesome freebie on the way to the top secret facility and decided there was still hope… :) Its true, that really happened. Anybody with too many airguns, keep in mind, freebies are that important to mans salvation! Im available if anyone wants to make the world a better place!


  11. I just tried another shotwith my AM77, this time from inside, the muzzle was well out the door however, the blast rang my right ear for about 2 minutes. Apparently I still have a breech breach(remember I sealed the barrel to breech connection with Shoo Goo,then drilled the transfer port so it’s doubtful there’s a leak there)I was thinking about putting an O-ring on the bolt probe. Anyone have any info on what that takes to do?

    Reb


    • Is AM77 short for airmaster? Remington? I had that as a squirrel gun for two seasons, it is just powerful enough for the fuzzy bugs within 30-40yds, and its lower power is what made it capable through the accuracy it provided. It really was an accurate pumper. I got rid of the silver on mine, blacked the barrel. At the start I bought an 880 with the AM and returned the 880, the AM is such a sturdy piece compared, but they really aren’t in the same class.


      • Yes It’s a “slightly” modified Remington Airmaster pushing 10 fpe with no real power mods, just with some of the leaks sealedIt’ll dump 14 pumps.I have hit my target @ 80 yards but the pellet bounced off I think 65-70 yards is about as far as I need to hunt with it.But after yesterday’s shot@65 yards I may go for head shots slightly further out.I love this gun!I just wish I could still pump it.

        Reb


        • Yeah the AMs a very stiff pumper, I am very gentle with my toys, and when you go shooting with a friend with your babyd AM77 it was cringing time every time they pumped. Its such a hard overcome, people not used to it literally just smashed it down and I wanted to freak, but figured I was over-reacting and it was just how easy I was used to letting the arm back.


      • I have considered putting a new barrel& breech for.22 on it & opening the whole BB feed to.22 also. Still in the early research stages.How cool would that be?


        • I replied and then screwed up the delivery, but in summary said a very enthusiastic YES!! Do it! It could really catch on, a .22 lead ball repeater even sounds like a great new genre…. get the ball rolling…. ;) or someone else will.


          • By all means Sir, you first! just remember to tell you ole buddy Reb what pitfalls to be aware of! It’ll be a bit still before I get into another gun.

            Reb


  12. It looks like my comments aren’t going through again. Guess I’ll call it a night for a while.
    Thanks for the chat Ya’ll
    Reb


  13. Gentelmen,

    Due to the overwhelming interest of this subject, would you like to be a lab mouse? I am working on a spreadsheet to graph the BC of various known accurate pellets at velocities between 600 and 1000 fps in 25 fps increments at 20 and 30 yards. This is no joke as far as the calculations and time required. However, this is something I have wished to do for myself for a while and this blog kicked the rock in the pond. Anyway, I would like to share the results with you guys as it progresses or fails.

    Joe, what is your most accurate pellet in your most accurate gun?
    BB?
    Edith?
    GF1?
    Reb?
    RDNA?
    Wulfarad?
    Jim?
    Kevin?
    Fred?
    Micheal?
    Who will be Mouse#12?

    I have a great selection of pellets ranging from 177, 20, 22, 25. I am limiting this to 12 pellet submissions because of obvious limits on time and patience. My personal list is:

    .177 CPH and CPL Box
    .22 CP Box
    .22 JSB 15.9gr and 18.13gr
    .25 Benjamin and Barracuda

    If your pellet of choice is on my list, please defer to another person’s selection.
    If you happen to shoot some funky pellet well, you may need to send me some to test. This will take a while(Summer), but it may help some people out in the long run.

    I will be using a 18″ LW barrel for all shots in all calibers. I would guess BB knows how I am going to do this;)

    Participate if you wish, I’m doing it regardless. Game On!

    Jay


    • Jay , Jay, Jay
      This is getting scary. That is exactly what my list is. Is your name really Jay or is it Rick? My buddy’s name is Rick and he knows them are my favorite pellets.

      But yes those are exactly the pellets I use. But with one exception. I use the JSB diabalo exact heavy domed pellet in .177 cal. as my first choice then the Crosman premier Heavy domes in the box.

      I don’t know if you said but it sounds like you got a AirForce gun. And what do you mean by 25 fps increments? I will wait for your response about the 25 fps thing before I say anything else.


      • Not a problem. Airhog CF tank w/regulator, spinlock talon with all 4 18″ barells, and a dive compressor. Good enough for ya? ;)

        Jay


        • Jay
          I think people here get tired of hearing about the guns and equipment I have and had. So I wont mention that.

          But I would like to know what brand dive compressor you have.


          • Gunfun 1,

            Bauer Junior 2. Never meant to offend anyone. You asked how I could test and vary the velocity. The answer is by using the reg. and feeding the gun from the big bottle.

            Jay


            • Jay not offended. Im talking about me. I talk about my things all the time. So just didnt want to say what I have and sound like Im bragging about my things I have to shoot with. So nobody offended.

              But I want to know what you have in mind when you say you want to test at every 25 fps. That seems like a pretty close variation in fps.

              And the other thing about that data gathering. Why use only the AirForce gun.

              And I dont see the benefit of the data gathering test. Once that data was gathered again would only be a referance. It would be unlikely that the conditions at the time the tests could be reproduced.

              I will reference back to drag racing. I can only tune a car at a given time with the equipment and parts I have in front of me.

              Same with air guns.I cane change the tune of the gun. I can change barrels. I can change twist rates. But I can only load the pellet in the gun and accept what its characteristics are. So I cant change how efficient the pellet flys. I can try to make it fly better but I have to accept it for what it is.

              So what ever some body documents about a pellets BC mwans nothing to me until I see what it does in my gun for myself.

              Sorry just me. Im like that with my hobbies.


              • Thanks Gunfun 1,

                I was hoping someone was going to offer some constructive criticism of this experiment.

                To reply to your questions and concerns:

                1. The velocity increment of 25 fps is a start. If I can’t get that to work, I will go to 50 fps.
                2. I’m using the AF guns because I already own the gun and barrels. Also, I can tweak the pressure/velocity using the regulator on the large tank hooked to the spinlock tank fitting.
                3. The test will be indoors, but you are correct about it not being perfectly reproducible.
                4. Correct again about this just being a guide; it will be. However, it may be better than the generic lists provided that have no velocities attached.
                5. I did say this test was for my own knowledge, and asked if anyone wished to share their favorite pellet. I believe you suggested the JSB .177 Cal, 10.34 Grain. I have some of those and will try them. I was hoping someone with your knowledge would run their own similar test on their pellet so we could compare notes for similar velocities.
                5. I take my hobbies seriously as well.;)

                Jay


                • Jay the video that you found up above for Reb is pretty much what I do for my guns.

                  But here is the important thing. I first in the case of a PCP gun is determine the fill pressure of the gun to get a consistent velocity spread. Then make sure the pellet will be a accurate pellet. I want to see a consistent group at that distance I have my gun zeroed at.

                  After that then I will place the targets out at different distances and shoot from a bench rest in one place. (That’s what I don’t like about what the person did in the video you found for Reb. He moved to different positions.) I know it works out the same. But I would rather stay in one place. Then I graph out the pellets flight path.

                  So do you see what I mean about the feet per seconds. I try my darnedest to get a pellet that will exit the barrel at a consistent velocity. I know what you want to do with your data you want to collect. But I think it would be overkill. I wouldn’t even be worried about those other feet per second readings. Only the one that I’m going to be shooting that pellet at.

                  And like you said it was something you wanted to do. And that’s how I do with each of my guns that I just talked about. After that nothing changes unless I try a new pellet. Then I do the target graph again. So please don’t take it as I’m arguing. I’m just saying what my routine is for a new pellet.


                  • GF1,

                    Due to lack of time and family obligations, I apologise for not returning this reply in a more timely manner. You seem to be one of the good guys here and I respect that. Yes, I agree that guy in the video moving the shooter and not the target is not good form, and after I posted that, I hoped no one would notice.;) I think the wind got him at 35 and 40 and he moved up to 25-30 and compensated the last two groups to prove the point. Just a guess,;) Pretty hard to shoot a 1/2″ group at 50 yards with a 12fpe(or higher for that matter) .177 gun in anything but perfect conditions. Regardless, it does show what to do to learn the trajectory of YOUR gun and specific pellets and to correct for shots at various ranges, be it mill dots, clicks, or good ol’ Kentucky windage.

                    I did a sample test today just to get a feel for it and decided that 50 fps increments and a fixed 30 yard range between chronographs will suffice for my needs. That will cut the number of shots down to 40 per pellet. Like I said, it is a work in progress.

                    I did a sub-test with an old 300S that shoots 610 fps (+/- 4 fps) MV with Finale Match 7.36 gr. I shot at 1m (fixed), 4m, 6m 8m, etc. out to 24m with the second Chrony. As expected , I got a BC curve that was much different than the “unspecified domed pellet” in the Blog graph. I may have some additional insight as to why 10m was chosen as a standard for target shooting with wad cutters, besides the ease of scoring. I know some may wonder why I am using distance as my x-axis rather than velocity in this particular sub-test. Well, as you should know, distance and velocity are a function of one another when using a fixed velocity gun such as the 300S.

                    All I have now is a hand calculated graph, and so far do not know the procedure for attaching a .jpg file to a comment. Any help on that?

                    Thanks,

                    Jay


                • I’ll have tcheck out this Chairgun app so I’ll also have to learn how to use it, until then all I have are my guns, pellets and brand new Chrony but I’d be more than willing to participate in as much of this research/experiment as possible!


                  • Reb,

                    Have fun with the Chrony. You are on the right path. Just don’t shoot the darned thing like I did.;) That is the reason I have 2 of them. You can get a repair kit from Chrony for about 40$ but, you need the tools and equipment to recalibrate it.

                    Jay


          • Gunfun 1,

            I just read your comment about Pop. He lived on the farm until he was 85. As far as I know, he shot squirrels out of his pecan trees until he went to the home. Excellent shot. I hope to be half as good.

            Jay



              • GF1,

                Yep, I think you are right. He loved to shoot those nut snatchers. It got him outdoors and gave him a reason to exercise in his later years. He may be a good example for all of us.

                Jay


    • Winchester round nose 9.8gr Remington Airmaster I’ll have to break out the Chrony for velocity and will also add pump values.

      Reb


      • Thanks Reb,

        All I need is the pellet brand and weight. This is NOT an accuracy test, just BC on various pellets of known accuracy in YOUR gun. I will try to find a tin of those for testing.

        Jay


    • Jay,

      I’ve shot a lot of different airguns with a large variety of pellets for many years and have come to the conclusion that I don’t own any accurate airguns.

      Don’t know if this will help you but…..my favorite shotgun pellets are #8′s (because there are lots of them).

      kevin



        • Jaymack,

          You’ve already got a decent list of pellets and lots of work to accomplish your goal.

          If you want more pellets to test I’d suggest

          .177. Air Arms Falcon, Beman Field Target Specials, H & N FTS
          .22 Air Arms Field, Barracuda Match

          kevin


          • kevin,

            Very good call on the FTS and FTT! Those have always worked well for me in the HW series guns. H&N FTT .22 and .177 are good to add. The FTS is just a repackaged H&N FTT. Never shot the Air Arms. However, they may be a repackaged JSB product. Please correct me if I am wrong.

            Jay


            • Jay,

              FTT and FTS pellets are made by H & N, have similar specifications but are made with different dies. For this reason they perform differently.

              Air Arms Falcons and Air Arms Field pellets are made by JSB. Air Arms Falcons and JSB RS pellets have similar specifications but are made with different dies. For this reason they perform differently. Same applies to the Air Arms Field Plus and JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets.

              kevin


              • Ak, thanks for clearing that up,

                I have never personally noticed a difference between the .22 FTS and FTT. However, my FT fun gun likes the Beeman FTS .177 better. None of these pellets are my favorite in MY guns, but they are very good in general construction, defects and weight variation.

                Do you know if Beeman Barracudas and H&N Barracudas are the same as well? I read that the match version of both is a one die operation vs. mass production. For a one dollar price point difference, I find that a wee bit odd. Just look at CP’s price point. I have one gun that excels with both the regular and match versions of both types of Barracuda .22. No perceptible difference between the 4 pellets.

                Jay



                  • Thanks Sir,

                    I knew that about the Kodiak somewhere back in my skull.;)

                    I do apologise for contributing to the mole hill. I had this in mind for a while, and the dam was going to fail at some point.

                    Jay


                  • So Im guessing beeman is the parent company? Since they are bigger and older and make guns, pellets and more whereas H+N is just pellets, so did beeman create H+N to be a flashy front company for the pellets and pellet sales?


                    • RifledDNA,

                      Beeman, thanks to Dr. Beeman, was, IMHO, the primary reason that airgunners in the USA enjoy quality airguns imported from all over the world.

                      Dr. Beeman, on the heels of Robert Law, created an airgun market in the USA that has become a major consumer and we are a major benefactor of development and distribution of the explosion of airgun options and cutting edge technology because of Dr. Beeman.

                      Dr. Beeman aka Beeman Airguns never manufactured anything. Although they were only distributors Beeman did have the horsepower to dictate design as well as badging from manufacturers.

                      kevin


                    • Beeman was an importer that stamped their name on the products. They did not manufacture anything (to my knowledge).


                • Jay,

                  Kodiaks & Barracuda’s are both made by H & N. Don’t know if they have different dies. Do know that you can get Barracuda Match pellets in a variety of head sizes, 5.50-5.54, but have never seen different head sizes offered for the Kodiak’s.

                  kevin


                  • While that is a wonderful clarification between making, and distributing, it doesn’t really answer my question….. Beeman is certainly all the things you’ve mentioned, and new cutting edge pellet brand is not on the list, yet they are essentially the same pellets, minus a few of H+Ns exotic offerings, including head diameter options. So was that the intention of the parent company? To rejuvenate pellet sales? It appears, effectively, so.


                    • RifledDNA,

                      OK, allow me to put a finer point on this discussion.

                      Beeman is not a “parent company” for any manufactured item.

                      H & N is the parent company for manufacturing most pellets that Beeman sold under the Beeman label.

                      To answer your question, H & N, the “parent company”, did not offer different head sizes in the barracudas to “rejuvenate sales”, they always offered this option while the Beeman Kodiaks were only offered in limited head sizes for a limited time according to my old Beeman catalogues. Again, marketing. IF, Beeman would have touted the significance of pellet head sizes in his catalogues and how they related to airgun accuracy I’m convinced that all pellet manufacturers today would be forced to offer multiple head sizes for their pellets or they wouldn’t sell many tins let alone cases of pellets.

                      Fairly esoteric but amazingly important.

                      Hope this answers your question(s).

                      kevin


                  • Ok, that’s what I was wondering. If HN was its own entity or had deeper association with beeman, but they MAKE the pellets for beeman, which is interesting. Its backwards from my conspiracy theory. I think I’ve read that HN has been around a long time though too, making lead products and than going to airgun pellets. I forgot about their own history, so please disregard. Who makes the beeman pellets that aren’t from HN? The standard pointed and round nose? They say China.


                    • RifledDNA,

                      Lots of different pellets and their packages were made by Mount Star of Japan for Beeman. Don’t know about Chinese made pellets for Beeman. Maybe someone else will chime in.

                      kevin


          • Thanks,

            Great call. I just looked at my tins of Kodiak and H&N match and they are all 5.52. I think they sell size variations at ***.

            Jay


    • When the anticipated fun funds arrive, and I have a chrony ( sometime this summer ) I will have plenty of numbers for everyone, and a wide variety of test subjects… can’t wait, literally will be all over a chrony for like 6 months straight when time comes, your going to get annoyed with the amount of chrony records I send… ;)


  14. GF1, thank you for keeping me in mind! Don’t sweat it too hard .I’m pretty set on a.22 cal 18″2240″style” with removable stock and capable of HPA mod. Eventually it will also be set up as a repeater. Aiming for 15-20 fpe. Sound doable to you? I have the gun in my cart @$86.88,with stock and 18″.22 barrel.I expect shipping to push this just over $100.There’s not much chance of getting another job lined up after the fiasco left in the parking lot for a month while I’m in recovery. I’m not willing to sell any of my guns or shooting equipment so I guess I’m waiting for another denial from the Social Security Administration so I can keep submitting request after request until they get tired of opening my letters(like Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption).


    • Reb I think you will be surprised how that little 2240 performs when you get it.

      Now only if we could get PA to have some parts from Crosman in stock. PA seems tp get stuff to me faster than Crosman does.
      Just think if they carried some barrels from Crosman. We could biuld those little woods walker type gun a little easier. You know like the AirForce gun parts they sell.

      And it is sure a nice shooting day today. :)


      • Gunfun1,Good morning.Got the 24″ 25 cal.barrel in Friday!But can not shoot it yet because I wanted to collect and add more bulls eye bucks to my account before I order the Hill pump.After a little reading about the pump I am NOT to thrilled about Dishing a extra $25.00 for a simple foster fitting that does not come with the pump.I would guess that would loss more sales for this pump then Hill would think because I’m still thinking they should include that in the package.Bottom line, lots of money for a pump but the life time warr.and they encourage tearing it down if needed.Anyway I got a questing for ya maybe you can answer or anyone else may know that has changed a Airforce barrel on the talonP. After installing the 24″ barrel the Allen screws stick way up above the surface.The barrel is much larger in dia.which makes those two shims I call them not as thick as the ones on the 12″ barrel and so the holes that the screws fit in are not as deep so the Allen screw have to stick way past the surface on the gun?Is this common? Wouldn’t AF send four shorter screws with the barrel you would think? I can live with it but I can’t see this being the standard because other folks would be raising a stink on reviews over this.I check back later today here for a respond.PS little over 20 bluegill in the frying pan last week! Caught another mess yesterday,frying bound soon.



        • steve how is it going.

          I see that twotalon already answered about the Hill pump. I just wanted to say real quick about the Hill Pump. I got one. I think I have had it about 5 years now and absolutely no problems. And I like the idea that it comes with the air dryer. I think that’s a big benefit over the other pumps.

          And then about the barrel. I put a 18 inch .25 cal. barrel in my Talon SS. It came with different set screws.

          And I have to ask this. Did your barrel come in a cardboard type tube? Mine did. The set screws were in a sealed plastic bag. If I remember right the plastic caps on the tube come off on either side. Mine was down in the other end in between some foam and the cap. Maybe that’s were yours are at.

          And I have got to get down to the lake and get me some Bluegill. There probably going crazy right now. I don’t know if they spawned here yet or not.

          Anyway let me know if you find the setscrews. Have fun fish’n and shoot’n. :)


          • Gunfun1,Bingo! Yes they were taped to the inside of the cap on the tube just as you said.And they are flush now with the barrel.You are the man,I would have never found them stuck under that foam and taped down like that.I can even find a jug of milk setting in front of me in the frig.My wife gets a kick out of kinda stuff.My defence is I’m just a man.So Monday I will order the pump and hopefully get to putting some holes in paper to see what this beast will do! I did fire it at a 11\2 cedar board at sixty feet with a 31 grn. power setting four and it went threw both sides and after changing barrels it was supremely very close to zero from the 12″barrel! So got my home work from BBs past blog on the escape and going to start with his best settings and see if It will apply close to my talonP.Let ya know in a few days what happened.Bluegill are full of eggs here in northern KY. and getting close to nesting.Still biting good on small rubber minnows!


            • steve glad you found them. And I bet them squirrels sure wish you wouldn’t find them. ;)

              I don’t know what those Bluegill are doing up here in Illinois. They got to be getting close though. and i always use crickets for bait. We put about 3 of those little split shot weights that are about the size of a bb about a foot up from a little gold hook. And no we don’t use any bobbers or whatever you call them things. When you cast out the weight sinks real quick then the cricket comes floating down real slow. Kind of like a bug falling into the water and sinking. They tear them up. But do you know where Horse Shoe lake is in southern Illinois. We use to fish there all the time. And dads farm was by Horse Shoe lake in mid Illinois close to St. Louis. Too many goods times back then.

              But also let me know how you like that pump and how that new barrel is doing.


          • Hey gunny, wondering about pumps now that you guys mention it, I was thinking about AF guns and just assumed an AF pump would work best with it….. are the hill pumps best for all? Maybe you or bb or someone else with experience might know which pumps are most durable? Highest available pressure fill limit? Adapters included? Might be a good blog, rundown on pumps and interchangeability and whatnot…. ;)


            • RDNA
              I have had good luck with different brand hand pumps. But I have 2 different brand hand pumps and my buddy has another one of the brand name hand pumps. So 3 different hand pumps and they all do their job fine. All have lasted for along time also.

              If I remember right the different brand pumps will go from 3000 to 3600 psi and most PCP guns will max out at 3000 psi. Some guns will go higher though. So the main thing is that you know how much pressure your gun is rated at and get a pump that will at least go that high.

              And the more I think about it. I wish I would of saved my money. And instead of getting hand pumps and then the ShoeBox compressor I would of got one of those big Nitrogen tanks. That way you know for along time. Like a half a year or more you know you have fill pressure available right when you want it.

              Right now with the hand pumps and the ShoeBox compressor there is a point in time if I shoot alot that I have to wait for the ShoeBox to refill my buddy bottle. I have been thinking about selling my ShoeBox and one of my hand pumps (I will keep one hand pump for just incase purposes). And going with nitrogen from here on out. I haven’t decided yet. But that just may happen for me.

              And another thing about the hand pump or nitrogen you can still fill your gun or bottles if the electric were to go out.


            • So far as I can tell, the AirForce pump, and the Crosman/Benjamin pump are identical EXCEPT for the coupling!

              I bought fittings to go from AirForce via a pipe nipple to Crosman/Benjamin Foster fitting.

              {Strangely, when I equipped my small Sears shop compressor, I seem to have also chosen uncommon couplers — none of my air hoses/nozzles will fit my father’s compressors, plural}


    • Reb
      Have you not got a Lawyer yet for SSD claim. I applied for disability in Nov of last year after my Doc told me to stop working for health reasons. I was turned down in Jan of this year and got a lawyer that took my case and I am now waiting for a hearing with a judge. Most SSD lawyers work on the principle that if they don’t win and get you money you don’t owe them any money. Therefore they don’t take cases that they don’t think they can win. It may take two years to get the hearing but if they take your case you should win. They don’t get paid unless they win for you. Chances are if you just keep appealing you will not get. Its our gov’t and you have to prove to them that you are serious about not being able to work and I don’t believe they will take you serious with out a Lawyer. Just my two cents worth, but My first wife had leukemia in 84 and got denied till we got a Lawyer and my current wife got denied in 2000 until we got a Lawyer also and got approved in 18 months. So it is very difficult to get approved with out a lawyer.
      Mike


      • You are totally correct, SS does not want to pay out, and rightfully so. They make the process very difficult and I appreciate that. My wife has been approved for her debilitating scoliosis and it has taken 4 years. If she wasn’t serious we surely would’ve given up, and that’s the point. As long as the medical records and evidence is there, not quick, but it’ll be there. They want all the true medical proof many times over, that’s all. It sucks to wait, but there would be no money for people that actually need it if it was handed our too easily.


        • Rifled DNA
          You got that right about it being hard to get SSD as it should be to a point. The problem is you have people that apply for just because they have high blood pressure or some other disease that they think should allow then to not have to work and that makes it harder the people like your wife and REB and me that have medical conditions that can lead to death if you tried to work a 8 hour job. I busted my but four forty five years as a mechanic working with all types of chemicals that at the time little was known about the long term effects on the human body. I can’t tell you how much asbestos brake dust I breathed in back in the 70s and 80s before they started to stopped making the lining out of asbestos or oil and greases on my skin for extended time in a 8 hour day and cleaners like carb and brake cleaner, not to even mention the acids that the old carb cleaner in the 35 gallon vats that you would soak them in and if you dropped a small part or it fell out of the bucket you would have to stick your hand into it and hope you had a sink close by because it was a acid and as soon as the air hit your skin it would be on fire and burning from the contact of acid to your skin. If I could work a 8 hour day I would still be working but with more health issues than I can even remember I feel they should make the process faster, but then again we are talking about a Gov’t that can’t even balance their checkbook. This ain’t the world I grew up in that’s for sure.
          Mike


          • Oh yeah, its a very different world, things change faster and faster. The American government is long overdue for renovation, that’s for sure. Can you imagine if kids played with mercury now a days? The children would be confiscated, another insane situation, the freedom from spanking act has a new branch of overzealous moral police collecting a check, while parent to child murders are news stories every day. I don’t get it. Just like I don’t get the manned emergency towers being built to save the dehydrated lives of border jumpers, another huge check being written from a negative trillions bank account for irrational crap…. Americans need to Take the Hills and Pay the Bills!


            • RifledDNA
              How is it that our gov’t can keep printing money and going farther and farther into debt with out going bankrupt. if me or you did that we would have everything we owned took away. I agree it time to take to the hills and take our country back. When I was 18 my father gave me the summer to goof off and come October I either had to have a job, be in college or the military, he was retired from the air force as a LT Colonel and really wanted me to go in the air force, but being the rebellious kid I was if I was going in the military it was going to be the marines ( I had already taken the asvab test and scores an 84) and then volunteer for recon out of boot camp to learn everything I could about survival and guerrilla warfare so when I got out in 6 years I could go find a mountain top and booby trap it and tell the gov’t to fly a kite and come get me if they thought they could. Now I wish I had gone that route but I got a Job a the local auto repair shop and that was that. I always liked taking things apart and putting them back together better than they were to start with. You are right Spare the rod and Spoil the child is mostly the cause of all the crazy stuff are youths are doing any more. It is time for us to stand up and stop the madness in OUR country.
              Mike


  15. Thanks, B.B., I have always wondered what the ballistic coefficient. All I know about this is that boat tail bullets are designed because the back of a bullet creates a sucking effect on air and decreasing the surface area of the back, through a boat tail design, will reduce the sucking effect. That would seem to imply that the sucking effect on diablo pellets must be huge.

    Michael, that quote of yours is now ringing a bell. Would this airgun guru also be the former technical director for Air Force guns that really do look like pipes and the one who is now singing the praises of his accurized AR? :-) Well, this blog is so enormous that maybe we’re seeing evolution over time.

    Matt61


    • Matt,

      That sucking effect is called drag. Yes, diabolo pellets are very high drag. In fact, you may remember that I tested how much the high drag impacts accuracy when I tested the Diana 25 smoothbore.

      B.B.


  16. Does anyone know the actual average bore size for .22 air guns? Wondering about .22 rimfire ammo, lead, not casings and charge, for airgunning. Would they fit? Any of the types? Shorts/cb mags, long? Light fragmenting pellets….. hmmmm.


  17. That has me posing another question about the viper “shotgun” airguns, could any breakbarrel be breech bored to accept those shells? Sounds very simple, but is the use of that ammo worth any while?


  18. Some of us don’t use Foster adapters. Why should we pay for one with a pump when we are going to throw it away ?

    twotalon


    • twotalon,Good point,Wasn’t thinking about others needs,caught up in my little world of needs.Still think it’s a bit over priced.


  19. Bob sent this question to the wrong address, so I’m posting it here for him.

    I don’t have much to say on a blog but have a question about my Daisy #25.
    I have owned it as a child, after my dad got it for me from a store in the NYC subway’s Times Square station.
    (The store could not allow us to take it with us due to some N.Y. restrictions on ownership in NYC.
    So we had to have it shipped to a relative in New Jersey. I still remember how impatient I was until we made the drive to pick it up.)
    It has the interchangable multi-shot B.B. tube (as I recall it holds 50 BBs) and it has the single shot cork tube.
    Those tubes had to be carefully inserted to allow the center air tube rod to thread down the center of those shot tubes.
    The gun has its telescopic site and has the engraved receiver sides showing a hunter with his dog near the stock and two birds further to the front.
    The engraving is gold although it wore in spots and before hanging it on my wall, years ago, I rubbed in new gold
    Now, here’s the issue and my question. I recall sending the rifle back to Daisy for repair because it either lost power or would not shoot at all.
    That was about 60 years ago. When it came back the factory had replaced the leather plunger with a rubber of neoprene one.
    Although that “fixed” the problem, the “bang” sound was not nearly as crisp as when the plunger was leather.
    That caused me to put the gun away retiring it (probably a good thing since,otherwise, I might never still jhave it).
    But it still bothers me to this day not having the original leather plunger and not being able to hear the familiar “bank” of my youth.

    So, bottom line, I wonder if there is any way I can restore the rifle to its factory original with a leather plunger.

    If this was to be published as a blog, I would have no objetion.

    Bob


    • Bob,

      I have so many readers that I get hundreds of emails each day. I no longer have the time to answer them individually, so I only do it here, where over 50,000 people will see it and possibly help me answer.

      You have a Daisy model 320. It came in a large blue cardboard box that also contained a steel BB trap, along with some cork balls and BBs.

      Leather piston seals all have to be handmade these days, as rubber is all Daisy — who has the gun parts made in China — is able to get.

      Your gun might be repairable with leather. These two men will know for sure:

      Larry Behling
 315-695-7133 or  co2bbjlts@juno.com

      Jim Coplen, PO Box 7297, Rochester, MN. 55903 (507)281-2314.
      5522 Clearwater Rd. Rochester, MN 55901

      B.B.


      • Dear BB:

        Thanks for your reply. I sent an email to the address you provided but it bounced with a message that it is no longer active. I will try to call both of the people you suggested.

        Bob


        • Bob,

          I got the copy of that message. Maybe Larry has changed his address, but I know he still fixes Daisy BB guns.

          I went to Bryan and Associates to look for his link, but every link I checked there is wrong. So these guys don’t keep their business up to date very well.

          B.B.



          • Kevin,

            Bryan and Associates is Ron Sauls’ company in SC. Larry Behling is in upstate NY. I’m unaware that there’s any connection between these men other than both repair guns. Larry’s phone numbers are 315-695-7133 & 315-635-3177. His email address is co2bbjlts@juno.com

            Edith


            • Edith,

              You’re right of course. I confused the information since I took the information from the e-flyer about the North Carolina Airgun show that was held last October and was attended by Ron Sauls, Larry Behling, Wes Powers, etc. Sorry for the confusion.

              kevin


  20. I finally got my Marauder charged and took my first shots this morning. Thanks to you B.B. for your input along the way.

    I have a new question and maybe a good topic? What is the truth about the health issue dangers of handling lead pellets?

    Most of my life (I am 71), I have been in contact with lead of some sort. My first job was on an oilfield logging truck and we handled a lead container that contained a radioactive neutron source. If I am not mistaken, the little soldiers we played with as children were made of lead. I poured many a cast bullet which were mostly lead and reloaded using those same lead cast bullets. Last year, I shot over 10,000 rounds of lead pellets, which were all handled individually.

    I just had never given it much thought until yesterday. I have a 6 month old grandson. My son, who is an avid shooter, said that the baby’s doctor asked if he had ever been exposed to lead. Everything goes into his mouth at this age and now I am wondering if I need to change my thinking about lead.

    I would really appreciate your view on this subject. I am not concerned for myself, but my grandson is a different issue.

    Jerry


    • Jerry,

      Lead is not a poison! It is, however, toxic. Therefore you should take steps to prevent ingestion. I wash my hands after touching it.

      I am 66 years old and have the blood lead levels of a 40-year-old, despite having cast tens of thousands of lead bullets on the past 50 years.

      Take reasonable steps and you won’t have a problem.

      B.B.


      • Gunfun
        The pellets that I was shooting in my FD gun that went in the low 1000fps were the Gamo PBA armor pellets that weigh 10.85gr which explains the high velocity’s they achieved. I have not started any real accuracy testing yet as I want to get it tuned to the fps I want with different weight pellets. then I will sort out the ones that are most accurate within the fps ranges I am looking for, but I can say that all three of the ones that I have used to tune for fps have been within the 3 inch circle of the paper I put out to aim at just for a quick reference at 10 meters. I realize that will change at greater distances, but that is what I have to work with in my backyard. After I get the final hammer spring setting done, I’m off to a friends that has 115 acres to shoot on and will start the accuracy testing at distances from 30 to 50 yards and more if it is capable. I will find out soon. Do you know if anyone makes a non diablo style pellet in the 14 to 16 gr range like the Rabbit Magnums only lighter than the 25gr of the Rabbit Magnums.
        Mike


        • buldawg I don’t want to get in trouble so I’m not going to post the link. But I will tell you what to search.

          They are expensive but they work. Yes I have shot them and they worked out of the guns I tryed them in. The first one I think is the best.
          search
          defiant .22 caliber pellet
          The next one is.
          search
          dynamic .22 caliber pellet

          But I have to say this. Here is the .22 caliber pellets I use. They shoot just as well as the pellets I just listed. They are not as expensive and that’s the reason I choose them over the others. They shoot just as good as the expensive ones.

          http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/JSB_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_22_Cal_15_89_Grains_Domed_500ct/584

          http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/JSB_Match_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Heavy_22_Cal_18_13_Grains_Domed_500ct/690

          http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Crosman_Premier_22_Cal_14_3_Grains_Domed_625ct/116


          • Gunfun
            I have the JBS diablo exact 18.13gr that shoot in the mid 800s and the CPs at 14.3gr that went in the mid 900s and I like them very much. I haven’t tried the diablo exact at 15.89 grains yet so I may try them. I was just wanting to get a better BC than the diablo shape allows for the higher fps in the low 1000s. I will look up the other two you mentioned. I will let you know how they work if I get some . Its getting late and got a early Doc appointment so will talk to you tomorrow
            Mike.


            • buldawg
              You know what I forgot to mention this the other day when the talk was going on about a heavier pellet going faster than lighter one.

              I found the 15 grn and 18 grn JSB’s go the same fps. and hit the same on the target. Well in the guns I shot them out of. And whats funny is they look the same. And one is heavier than the other. ??? Whats up with the BC there.

              But yep let me know if you get some of the other pellets to try.


    • Congratulations on the new shooter, and good luck with it, I look to get something similar if not that so your impressions are definitely be appreciated… on the lead issue, I’ve heard that lead dust and its oxidized state (dust) are the most worrisome, they are really the only way they can readily infiltrate the body. Depending on the age, lead levels above acceptable can cause learning development issues and physiological damage that affects emotion and perception, aka brain damage, though the level of lead required is really more than would be expected, and digestion of solid lead ( ie. pellets, bullets)) would generally more harmful to the digestive tract from the difficulty of movement then it would be from the actual lead itself. Always the dust on fingers should be washed of before handling a babies pacifier, but in reality you would have to handle the pacifier with leaden hands many times a week for a few years before the level of lead would affect the health of the child, sooner, maybe, with a newborn, but still a little once- no, a little occasionally- no a little all the time, yes over a while, a lot, obviously, but it really would be A Lot of dust to cause urgent health problems. Keep it out of reach and wash the hands, sweep shavings off tablets especially, and there should never be anything to worry about. The health risks of lead are overstated to sell alloys, IMHO.


    • Hi Jerry,
      I was concerned when I read that your very young grandson was near when you were shooting.

      According to the National Institutes of health and the Centers for Disease Control (and dozens of research studies), there are zero safe levels of lead in the body. It can be absorbed through the skin, inhaled, or ingested if eaten. Children under the age of six are particularly at risk for two reasons. First, they are much more sensitive to low levels of lead and second, they tend to swallow what is in their hands (which increases lead toxicity and is also a choking hazard).

      Lead poisoning can cause hyperactivity, cognitive dysfunction, reduction of IQ, and a variety of physical ailments…including up to death. It’s a a terrible idea to have your grandchild anywhere near where he might play with lead or inhale the dust. You want to give him every advantage.

      Please do your own reading and talk with your doctor.
      http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/lead/

      Rob


      • Rob,

        Years ago, when we published “The Airgun Letter,” airgunner & pediatrician Joe Matusic wrote an article for us about lead and children.

        In fact, Joe used to have a table at airgun shows (and he brought his kids with him), where he’d sell wooden traps (he’s a very good woodworker) with duct seal in them. I don’t know if he invented that style trap, but it’s the first time I saw one of them, and we bought one from him. Here’s Joe’s website and his specific page about lead safety:

        http://www.babymd.net/lead.htm

        Thanks,
        Edith


        • Thanks Edith,

          The pediatrician actually portrayed the dangers of lead pellets as More risky than I had believed. For example, he advises never to touch a child (especially around the eyes, nose, and mouth) after handling lead pellets.

          He also reported,

          “Make sure to remove all pellets from where a small child could find and ingest one. The smallest pellet contains 116 times the amount a child’s body can handle and potentially could be fatal (.177 wad cutter, 40% of ingested lead absorbed by children, 0.6 mg upper daily limit).”

          This is something we should all remember. Not only have I got a pellet catcher in my home (non-metallic but could still cause dust harmful to a child), but I’ve also been guilty of holding a pellet in my mouth for a moment before loading. That seems really silly!

          I was surprised after a web search how many children swallow lead pellets and sinkers…in addition to lead paint, etc. It is up to us to keep our sport safe. I hope that BB refers all readers to the doctors column at a near date.

          I do not think it is a harm to our sport to practice safety. I think it demonstrates to non-gun owners that sportsman strive to be responsible.

          Thanks,
          Rob


  21. Hi BB,
    I just wanted to add my thanks for this basic science and theory article (especially since you kept the math out of it).

    I love the airgun reviews, but of course I don’t and won’t own most of them. This type of article however is pertinent no matter where one is in the sport. I wish I could take a college level course in airgunning. What a blast that would be!
    Rob



      • :)

        Actually, you are right. Maybe you should set up some voluntary test pages….I’d take them just to make sure I was absorbing the info.


        • Hi Rob,

          That’s the spirit, my man. I really do wish that more people would learn about things for themselves rather than being sheep people. I know in this world it is hard to do, and I am as guilty as anyone, but if you pick a few subjects and really learn as much as you can about them, it is personally satisfying in a very positive way. I know B.B. is going to do well explaining this subject far better than I could. He and some of these other guys have analogies for complicated subjects that I could only just give you an equation for and say go figure it out.;)

          Jay


  22. RE Beeman Chinese pellets,

    The Beeman name is now owned by the Chinese. They are using it to market their guns to discount stores. This is where the Chinese pellets are coming from.

    The high-end European Beeman guns are being marketed and supported through Pyramyd Air.

    B.B.


  23. B.B., If you get into any hard comparisons and ballistics examples in subsequent parts, maybe include some examples with wind too (probably already in your plans). I’m working up 243 WSSM antelope loads for a hunt later this year. I’ve used the 80 gr. Barnes TTSX bullet in the past and love it, but I’m comparing it to a Berger hunting VLD (Very Low Drag) bullet of 87 grains using Quickload and Qucktarget software. The predicted bullet drop difference between the two bullets isn’t significant out to my maximum hunting range of 400 yards or so but the Berger bullet drifts only about 8″ compared to 10-1/2″ for the Barnes when launched at the same velocity in 10 mph of crosswind. I don’t know if my heavier Berger load will quite match the muzzle velocity of the Barnes, but it still wins at 400 yards in drift. I’m certain that some air gun pellet examples will prove to be even more enlightening, if wind is included in the discussion.

    -Cal


    • Cal,

      8 inches to 10.5 inches at 400 yards is pretty much in the noise, don’t you think? I mean, aren’t your 5-shot groups at that distance at least that large?

      I need to do a blog about this. I don’t think it fits into this particular report, but it was certainly spawned by it.

      Thank you. This is good food for thought.

      B.B.


      • Yes–good food for thought, B.B.! I hope you and your blog readers find my following continuance of the topic to be useful. I agree that the topic of B.C. and external ballistics motivates and spawns several related topics.

        I could have cited a more dramatic example and the difference between these bullet B.C.s certainly doesn’t create a “must have” situation for the lower B.C. bullet, but I’ll let you judge the merit of the higher B.C. bullet. Maybe you’re a “point blank range” hunting method sort of guy (there are very good arguments for this method) so I’ll frame an analysis in those terms and you and readers can decide if the B.C. benefit is useful. Based on Quicktarget runs (the external ballistics feature of Quickload software), the point blank range for either load is 333 yards (virtually the same for either bullet) on a 5″ diameter target. This leaves 3″ in my error “budget” for shooter and rifle error on an 8″ antelope-size kill zone (an error contribution that I can maintain at this range when shooting prone with a sling or bipod). However, if one employs the point blank range method and dead-on holds in the wind, a 10 mph cross wind and resulting bullet drift results in reductions of the point blank ranges for the higher and lower B.C. bullets to 230 yards and 200 yards respectively. Is this benefit in the noise? This 30 yard advantage in “wind” point blank range is greater than the benefit of a 300 Win Mag over a .30-06 (in either “wind” or “drop” limited point blank range) when shooting a typical 180 grain bullet big game load! Most people believe that the ballistic benefits of the Win Mag over the .30-06 are significant, but the difference is less significant than the difference in my B.C. example (and the Win Mag advantage is less significant than most people believe it to be too ;)).

        I have shot a total of six antelope on the plains of Wyoming and I believe the extra 30 yards is a useful benefit of the higher B.C. bullet. All of my shots were over 200 yards (two were at 400) and all game was recovered. It is very tough to get a shot under 200 yards where I hunt, because there is little to no cover available to the hunter. The plains of eastern Wyoming also tend to be windy!

        Like you, I’m a believer in putting many more than 5 shots into a paper “kill zone” and 10+ shot groups serve that end much better than 5 shot groups. I have a couple of rifles that enable me to place my shots on an 8″ antelope-size kill zone when shooting prone with a sling or bipod at 400 yards in very light to no wind. Hence, 400 yards is my range limit for antelope. Estimating wind is tricky. As with range estimation in the days before laser rangefinders, it is easy to over-correct for wind.


        • Cal,

          Two things stand out — you know what you are talking about and I have stalked antelope (with a camera) in Wyoming. They are very spooky and any extra yardage you can get is a plus.

          Now I understand why you like the Berger bullet best. I am sure Walt Berger is proud of you.

          And i can see that 2.5 inches at 400 yards is not in the noise for you.

          B.B.


          • Thanks, B.B.! I like the Berger VLD and Hybrid bullet B.C.s for sure, but I don’t have nearly as much experience with them as I have with the Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets, which shoot very well from my 243 WSSM. In my experience, the Barnes bullets never explode, potentially ruining meat, and they expand very reliably. If I find a Berger load that groups as well as my best Barnes load, I’ll try them on antelope this year (especially if there is any wind), but I’ll definitely have my old standby Barnes load along on the hunt too! Now for a truly excellent big game hunting ballistic setup, let me tell you about a custom wildcat(ish) 7 mm I’m building (for the 195 grain 7mm Berger EOL Hybrid hunting bullet, if Berger and Bryan Litz ever finish that project) but this blog is primarily an air gun blog. :)

            -Cal


            • Calin,

              You really do have a good grasp on what I think is the end goal of this whole exercise. I have never personally used the Quick software, but if it is giving you good consistent results, don’t fix what ain’t broke.;) The only real difference between the long range rifle software and airgun software is the ability and necessity for the rifle program to account for Coriolis effect, spin drift, G function and a few other factors that have no real effect on a pellet’s short flight.

              Jay


  24. Jay some people have posted pictures using photo bucket. Go to the website and check it out. It might work for you.


    • Thanks GF1.

      I did sign up, but I will have to test the transfer options to the public. It seemed to want to suck out all the images from my phone. I may just use my FTP site or contact B.B. directly.

      Jay


  25. Windage is tricky. And I wont say much until BB does that blog.

    But there is something that will work when your testing a pellet for windage. The serious drag racers use them. I never did use them when I was drag racing for the money. Guess I wasnt serious enough. ;)

    Anyway alot of them used portable weather stations that showed humidity,baramtric presure,temprature and wind direction and wind speed.

    All I will say for now is where should that wind gage be placed to tell you what hold to put in your aim point for windage. By were you shooting from or should it be at the target area with somebody there relaying info back to you.

    Remember your gathering info for lets say a new pellet you herd about and you want to know what the pellet will do in your paticular gun.

    And more air gunning fun.


    • GF1,

      Great call. I am pretty sure that anyone can construct such a device or devices as need be. I hope I am reading you correctly.;)

      Jay


      • Whats up Jay.
        And yep I know what you mean about the family life and responsibilities. I just got home from work a bit ago.

        But here is a example of what I’m talking about.
        http://kestrelmeters.com/

        You can place a flag at different spots I guess for testing purposes but that doesn’t give you a actual mph number that you can record on your target paper you shooting at. That’s one of the reasons I asked where the wind mph reading should be taken from.

        People have different ways they think they should read the wind for their windage hold. Some will hang a ribbon from the muzzle of the barrel. And that’s ok . But if I’m testing a pellet to know where the POI will be on the target at a given wind speed to see how it is affected by the wind. What place do I need to collect the data from? The target.

        If I want to know where a particular pellet will hit at at my zero point which lets say is 40 yards with a 10 mph wind. Well I’m going to record how fast that wind is blowing at the target. But the thing about that is for test purposes I’m going to set my target up so the wind is blowing directly from the left to right or vise versa. If the wind blew that pellet lets say one mil dot to the right. I would record that. Then I would try it with a different pellet shape and weight and 10 mph wind and try the same test. Then I would have some data of how the different pellets react to the wind.

        So again that would be good data for those different pellets. But the problem is I’m not going to be able to go out there and grab that squirrel and put him where the 10 mph wind is blowing left to right or vise versa again. Maybe the wind is coming from over my left shoulder. Well now that one mil dot hold wont workout any more. The geometry will now be different. Now I might only need a half mil dot hold with a same 10 mph wind. So what do I do now.

        I have my most accurate pellet that groups the best for my gun. And it will also be the best pellet from the above test I just described that is affected less by the wind. If I’m going to take the shot and I set a standard that I want my pellet to stay in which lets say is 1 inch. Hopefully I can find a pellet that will not be affected as much by the wind and it will also hold 1 inch at 10 mph. The less that pellet drifts in the wind the more sure I am of my shot. Even if I think I needed to hold a half mil dot to the left because I think I need that much hold I can still be off on my estimate and hit my target. Notice that word estimate. And also I will go out on a limb and say this from my experience that how far the distance out you shoot has more affect on the trajectory of your pellet drop then how much the pellet moves form one side or the other.

        Again so many variables to take place. And Jay you said it above. Get out and shoot and learn your gun and learn the pellets your going to call (THE pellet). You know the one that’s suppose to give you the confidence that when you pull the trigger your going to hit your mark. But you know whats cool about all of this. Your getting to shoot your gun. :)


        • Thanks GF1,

          Yes, I do enjoy shooting, and my wife does as well. When I set up the range inside she actually gets sort of frisky and wants to shoot also. ;) We don’t have any kids yet, and the dogs go outside, so it is safe for all involved. She actually fired most of the shots for my tests yesterday while I took notes and monitored the equipment. You can see why I married her.

          Anyway, I did think you were referring to flags of some sort. My father and I used those little balsa rubber band airplanes for flags a while back. We assembled them without the wing and band and mounted them on a bent coat hanger wire with dental floss. You did have to mark the CG to get a good rotation point. The plane’s fuselage and tail acted in the manner of a weather vane and the prop served as a wind speed indicator. It was not perfect, but it did show changes in wind speed and direction.

          A couple of years back, I bought one of those Horus hand held computers with the prop in it. A week later I put it in my golf bag for a trip to Myrtle Beach. While there, some jack-hole stole the bag, my laptop, camera and range finder out of the truck. I was livid. However, he did not get my EDC pistol.
          It could have been a lot worse if I caught him in the act. I am still a free man.;) I replaced everything but the Horus, and never got to use it for more than an hour or so.

          Jay


          • Jay but if your wanting to test how much a given mph wind and what it makes your pellet do. You need something to give you a number.

            The wind vanes you made can only give you what direction the wind is comming from. It cant tell you how fast its blowing.

            I guess if its hung from a string it can give you a indication of wind speed by the amount it rises.
            I suppose your way or with the hand held device would give data about the pellet if there was wind or not.

            Fun fun fun. Love this airgun stuff. :)


            • Gunfun1,

              A family that shoots together stays together, or something like that. ;) Regarding the plane flags, we guesstimated the wind velocity by the speed of the prop spinning in the wind. A clever man would glue a tiny neodymium magnet on the prop, counterbalance it, add a magnetic sensor, calculate the radial distance, calculate the fps of the wind based on the pitch of the prop, feed the output into an Arduino timing program and derive the wind velocity after compensating for drag and friction. I was not that clever at the time, however, times have changed. ;) Good times my friend.

              Jay


              • Jay it may be easier than that.

                I fly radio control airplanes also. You could take one of the hand held tachs and get the propeller rpm and convert that to mph. Its easy but you need to know the pitch of the prop. And again it would be a estimate.

                Here is the formula. RPM x pitch devided by 1056 and that will give you mph.


                • GF1,

                  Thanks for the hint and formula. I just found the tach! I was big time into RC cars for a while and had one from Tower Hobbies, and the good thing is that I removed the batteries 10 years ago. You would not believe how many times I have retrieved an electronic device only to find corroded batteries in it.;) I will try it against the homemade wind meter. However, I plugged a bluetooth transmitter into my Arduino board that transmits to my cell phone. I get 40-50 feet of range outdoors. I don’t use balsa planes anymore. Instead, I made a basic weather vane out of that plastic “cardboard” material from an old reality sign. I did order a real prop (APC 8×10) and mounted it on a bearing to reduce friction.

                  Jay


          • Jay I forgot my wife shoots and my two teenage daughters have been shooting since they about 7 years old. So yep we shoot all the time.


  26. RDNA,

    Mike is right! The last thing you want to do is be the defendant in a federal trial for owning an illegal silencer. Think it can’t happen?

    Just five years ago I got a letter from a federal prison written by a convict who made a silencer for an air rifle, then sent that rifle in the mail to another person. He was serving a long sentence and he wanted my help to appeal what he felt was a wrongful conviction.

    Well, the conviction wasn’t wrongful. The guy clearly broke several laws, one of which is you cannot make or own a silencer for a firearm. If an airgun silencer can be put on a firearm and silence it for just one shot, it is considered a silencer under the law.

    That is what my article is all about and it is also why I gave that TKO unit back.

    B.B.


    • Mr. BB,

      That is an eye opener for sure. As a hypothetical example, suppose one bought a “tube” from a guy formally based in Texas who deals in CF tanks and regulators. I think you know who and what I am referring to. Is that illegal as well?

      Jay


  27. Mr B,B.,

    Sorry to bother you again. I asked Gunfun 1 a question regarding the best way to attach/send a picture(PDF file) of a graph in a comment. He suggested Photo Bucket. I am not yet familiar with that program. For obvious reasons, I know you would like to preview the file first. How would you like me to proceed with that exchange. You do have my email address if you wish to contact me privately.

    Thank You,

    Jay


    • Jaymack,

      Post the photobucket link. Use your own good judgement regarding what’s acceptable for a family-friendly site. If it’s something we’d rather not link to, we’ll delete your comment.

      Easy-peasy :-)

      Edith


      • Thanks Edith,

        I will give it a shot in an hour or so.

        Don’t worry, if anyone gets offended/turned on by a picture of my graph, they need more help than you or I can provide. ;)

        Jay



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