by B.B. Pelletier
Before we begin, here’s a new video test by Paul Capello, of the RWS Diana 460 Magnum.
Today, I’ll report on the accuracy of the gas spring-converted Webley Patriot, and, oh my gosh! I don’t get a gun that shoots this naturally very often. When it happens, it’s quite a treat. Before you run to the forums and claim that I said the .25 caliber Patriot is a tack-driver, stop and read the entire report!
Sight-in
I usually sight-in starting at 10 feet, so the size of the group doesn’t matter or even count. BUT, seldom do I put two pellets through the same hole and not see where the second pellet went! I’ll accept that as a good sign of things to come. The pellet I used was a Beeman Kodiak, of course. Other pellets simply don’t do well in a Patriot or a Kodiak, but the 31-grain Beeman Kodiak performs like it was made for the gun, which, of course, it wasn’t, but could have been. (It was made for the Weihrauch EL54, an ether-injected rifle.)
Scope
A Leapers 3-9×50 scope with a red/green illuminated reticle was mounted on the rifle. This particular scope has a fine reticle with tiny mil-dots, so it’s easy to aim with precision. I mounted it in a B-Square AA adjustable one-piece mount that remained rock-steady throughout my velocity testing back on Dec. 19 and again in yesterday’s accuracy tests. I’ve installed the ultra-high riser kit on mine, so scope clearance is never a problem. Mounted correctly, this solves all your scope misalignment problems. The only reason my groups are not centered on the bull is that I didn’t take the time to adjust the scope or mounts. After a quick sight-in, I went to town.
Firing behavior
I’d forgotten what a pleasure this Patriot is to shoot. Gone is the heavy recoil and stunning vibration. Just a solid “thunk” and a forward jump. You’d swear you were shooting a rifle with 20 foot-pounds instead of almost 30! The trigger had one spot of creep but was crisp after that.
Good groups from the start
I used the new artillery hold with the rifle balanced on the back of my fingers. The first group had an inch of vertical stringing, so I slid the rifle forward until I was touching the triggerguard. The rifle was very muzzle-heavy at this point, but the pellets started sailing into the same hole, shot-after-shot. From then on, I knew exactly what the rifle was doing.
The first good group, which wasn’t supposed to even be a group, was the best of all. I shot six or seven times into the same two holes, not caring to stop until I realized what I was doing.
Then, I shifted to other bulls and began lobbing the Kodiaks in. I couldn’t miss! The technique was easy to repeat and the rifle shot like a champion. That said, a .25 caliber air rifle cannot compete with .177s, .20s and .22s. The pellets are just not up to it. But, when you smack a larger animal with a quarter-inch pellet, he knows it and he stays smacked! No acupuncture here! The .25 is for hunters, and this gas-spring Patriot is a good one to have!
Other pellets
I tried both Diana Magnums and Beeman Ram Jets, but neither was anywhere near as accurate as the Kodiaks. I wouldn’t waste my time with them if this is your only .25-caliber rifle. I’ve pleaded with Crosman for the past eight years to make a .25 Premier, but no luck. Until a top maker like JSB decides to make a better pellet, the Beeman Kodiak made by H&N is the best game in town, in my experience.
How good is the Turkish Patriot?
I failed to mention in the first report that the converted rifle was made in Turkey. I see on the forums that there are some discussion about whether or not these rifles are as good as the British-made Patriots. I’ve tested both, and the Turkish rifles are NOT made as well as the British-made Patriots. They’re made BETTER! The internal dimensions (where it counts) are held to tighter tolerances inside the powerplant. That said, I can’t see any difference in accuracy between a British-made Patriot and a Turkish-made Patriot. The British rifles had a better polish on the exterior metal, plus the scope-arresting cross grooves were cut deeper. That’s about the extent of the differences.
Bottom line?
If you fancy a Patriot, get one with a gas spring. If you already own one, have it converted. It makes all the difference in the world.
Happy New Year!
B.B.,
Amazing accuracy for a gun that powerful. I have a pretty good idea what those gas rams cost, and the Pyramyd $110 price for the DIY is very decent. I see also, that the installed price on a Whisper is $120. Again, very reasonable.
Paradigm shift in the universe!
Pestbgone
“Install it yourself or send us your old Patriot/Kodiak and give it a new life!”.
‘Install it yourself’ option is a GREAT, hobbyist-friendly decision on Pyramyd’s part. Hope this ends up true for the ‘Gamo’ model as well.
Hi B.B
Do you realy think the Crosman Premier could take the violent blast of air the patriot has without deforming the pellet skirt?
Secondly if you do, you should make an online letter to Crosman and other manufactures for thousands of people to sign.I know I would.The people need good pellets for 25. cal.If the makers realized there was a good market ,they be crazy not to meet the need.Keep up the great work.
Thaks
Scottdog
Scottdog,
First, the Premier is made of hardened lead, so yes, I think it would easily stand up to a Patriot.
Second, I have spoken directly to Crosman Marketing, sales and engineering. I have spoken directly to Ken D’Arcy, the CEO.
They may respond some day, but it will take continued interest from the market.
They sell pellets by the millions. .25-caliber shooters buy them by the hundreds. They don’t perceive a market.
B.B.
have you already answered this, is the gas spring convert more expensive than the regular?
PA Gunner,
The third link in the report takes you to the conversion page. $110 for the spring, $10 to install.
B.B.
thx
BB. will Black,caliper,stnthetic grease do harm if applied to main spring of say a Gamo Bigcat?? Thanks, Tim.
Tim,
Since I don’t know what that is, I can’t say.
B.B.
I know this is completely off topic but…
have you done, or do you plan to review the new super streak 22 by crosman? I think I might need to buy one, it’s just too prety to ignore. I am sure that the velocity with good pelets is well below their claim on their site, but if it still shoots 850 to 900 with mid-weight pelets it would make a good rabbit/squirrell gun to replace my CB9
Al,
I hope to review it, but you don’t need to wait. Just add 20 percent to the power I got with the .177 and you’ll get the velocity with a .22.
B.B.
B.B.,
I started target shooting this morning with my R7 and here’s the best I was able get:
http://picasaweb.google.com/trc4321/R7/photo#5150227534105843426
It was from a seated position, open sights at 10 meters with Bearcubs. This is with less than 100 pellets through the new gun and no adjustements to the factory sight settings made yet. I’d say this is pretty durn good for my first attempt. I’m very happy with the R7! 🙂
Next up is to dial in the open sights a bit and to try out some other pellets such as the Crosman Premier Lights that you suggested.
I’m having a blast! 😀
Thanks,
I found your review of the .177 and read it. hunting season kept me off your blog for a while, so I missed it on the first round.
Looks like the begging will now begin! I hope you get a chance to review before the wife gives in and lets me spend more money 🙂
TRC,
Good for you!
B.B.
Thanks bb.,I dont know what it either but it has a rating of 450 deg. far. if that helps. (from local auto parts store) THICK black grease. ( for brake calipers on autos)Seems like ahigh heat rating?? Was doing tune on friends Cross. Quest, 1 yr. old w/ thousands of shots today , spring looked really dry & skreeched when cocked so I used a couple drops of Cross. chamber lube. Solved spring noise & picked up 20 fps. BUT boy that thing still throws FLYERS all over!! BLAA BLAA, sorry BB. Ill try to keep From blabbing sooo much!! #1,,, Can grease from main spring make its way into compression chamber?? ( If so I know the ramifications of that) (Im familliar w/ des. & det.)Thanks BB.!!! Tim
DragonSlayer,
Yes, grease from the mainspring can make its way forward into the compression chamber. The type of grease determines how much and how fast.
Real black velocity tar is good for staying put, which simple machine grease is too thin and migrates quickly.
B.B.
B.B.
I’m trying to keep track of the accuracy effect of the gas spring. It sounds like you couldn’t really tell with the Gamo Whisper because your gas spring was in a new rifle, but the gas spring is a significant improvement for the Patriot. Is that right?
Fragmentary memories are coming together to produce a question. Am I right that Crosman Premiers can “lead” bores which I take to mean that they leave a deposit of lead after being shot? If true, should I take preemptive action to clean the bores or wait until accuracy is affected?
A little physics question to fit the season. I’ve read from Wikipedia and other sources that when bullets/ammo/pellets are shot up in the air as people tend to do on New Year’s that even with terminal velocity, the projectile because of its streamlined shape (especially for bullets) can come done with lethal velocity. That makes a certain kind of sense, but it seems improbable to me that a projectile can reach the top of its arc then precisely reverse its direction on the way down without tumbling wildly, and if it did so wouldn’t that slow the velocity way down from what it was on the way up? I can still see that shooting straight up is not a good idea, but it doesn’t sound quite as bad as made out.
A safe and Happy New Year to all.
Matt61
Matt61,
I can’t say that the gas spring improved the Patriot, either, because I never tested that gun with a steel spring. What I can say is the gas spring made it easier to shoot accurately. By reducing the recoil and vibration, the gas spring made the Patriot much more neutral and predictable.
Premiers lead the bore when they go too fast because they are made from lead alloy hardened with antimony. Antimony causes leading, which is lead that scrapes off the bullet and welds itself to the steel barrel.
Always wait until accuracy drops off before cleaning, because you always risk damaging the bore with a cleaning rod. So clean as little as you can.
B.B.
BB. THANKS SOO MUCH for your timely responce!! Im working on spring comp.of my own!!Cant wait to take one of these apart to see first hand what makes them TICK!! Cant figure how grease can migrate to pres. chamb.,, But Im shure apon total dissasembly Ill be enlightend! ( will start w/ Ricon affecionatly named Kitty Cat!!) ( Dont want to lose a limb on first dissassembly!!)#1 BB. can you lead me in direction of easily obtainable black vel. tar?? THANKS Tim!!
Tim,
Enter
Jim Maccari
into Google and go to his website (Air Rifle Headquarters). Look under lubricants.
B.B.
BB. THANKS!!! Now that makes it simple!! Give me a yearmor so & Ill be “TIM DA TUNA, AKA BB. TIM!!! Im building new house & living in rental in meantime,,(in country) recent complaint from neighbor threatened my very existance!! (noise from RWS 460 no doubt) He felt thretined by MY BULLET GUNS (DOWN RANGE) When I showed him my (BB GUNS) he was at ease! ( call them bb guns to minimize impact to those unknowing souls) Today, he comes over & i figure time to move,,NOT!!!He presents me w/ new boxed Cross. G1 & asks me can I set it up like mine!!! He is 67 yrs. YOUNG & a ppretty good shot w/my G1 !! LIFE IS GOOD!! OOPS sorry BB bla bla again!! YOUR FRIEND IN S.C. TIM
22. multi: did not mean to misslead, 2260 stock is un changed just made wood muzzle break (MODERATOR) & finished to match stock. Although have made (XX) grips & shoulder stocks I would be proud to show you!!! Ive seen RB.s work & it is awsome!! I think I can give him a run for his $ But he has me WAY OUT TOOLED!! I too love xx,s for many of the reasons you stated!Cross. xx & bulk fill variations?? Your 850 (RWS) to pcp. mod. is VERRY INTERESTING!! Look forward to you back up&running!! ADICTEDIN S.C.TIM
Matt61
As long as the projectile continues to spin it will not “tumble wildly” on its way back down. Angular momentum, being a vector quantity, will resist changes in axial orientation and prevent fluttering.
Since I can think of no force to stop the bullet from spinning, and because a rifle bullet is spinning damn fast on muzzle exit, my money is betting that it falls quickly, and thus maintains its lethality potential.
On the other hand, you are correct in speculating that, in the absence of a dominant angular momentum vector, the natural tendency of a falling object is to tumble wildly, or flutter, in order maximize its resistance to aerodynamic forces of the passing air.
B.B.
Thanks for the tip about leading and cleaning. I like to tinker with guns as little as possible anyway.
Matt61
Bullet shot stait up,
I remember hearing (mythbusters i think) that a bullet fired strait up cannot be lethal. However one fired at a slight angle can because it maintains more of its initial velocity due to traveling in a slight arc.
Nate in Mass
TRC, it seems as you may be new to this hobby?? No offense if not ,but boy did you start out w/ a top shelf gun!! My pell. rec. may not have been right ,, sorry just trying to help!! Do you plan on mounting a scope???? Do you plan to hunt or just paper punch& kill bottle tops at 30 yrds.!! Both work for me!! May your new year bring MANY 10 rings!! TIM in S.C.
trc
Congratulations on your R7–the related HW30 is one of my fantasy guns. And thanks for posting the target. They’re always better than the verbal report.
I want to put in my pitch for the Crosman Premier Lights which have performed outstandingly for me in aparment shooting. Only the JSB Exacts which I’m waiting on have a chance to dislodge them.
For shooting indoors, you might try the sitting position with your back against a wall. I don’t know that it makes the position more stable, but it’s less tiring for the back.
Matt61
Thanks for the thoughts on bullets being shot straight up. I can see how the bullet’s spin would stabilize it. But does that mean that the bullet falls straight backward without reversing its direction? If so, then I would think that a pellet would lose quite a bit of its streamlining effect notwithstanding B.B.’s blog about firing pellets backwards. Bullets would lose less streamlining I suppose although they would not be as efficient as in the forward direction.
But what happens if the bullet is fired a few degrees off of vertical as it almost certainly would be? If it falls backward, the angular momentum vector would not coincide with the direction of travel which seems to be an unstable configuration. Perhaps it could nose over at the top of the arc to head more or less straight down, but such an extreme change of direction seems to work against the stabilizing effect of the spin.
Matt61
Myth Busters did do a study of the bullet letheality after being fired straight up. They fired a 9mm pistol and an M1 garand in 30.06 in the desert and recovered the bullets in the dirt. The 180 gr 30.06 bullet penetrated the same as the 124 gr 9mm. They had a hard time finding many of the bullets but all they did find hit the ground sideways and none hit hard enough to be fatal. They said they would probably break the skin and give a good welt on the noggin but that was about it. None fell straight back to earth, even a slight breeze blew them off by dozens of yards or more. They even calculated the terminal velocity and then but the bullets in a vertical wind tunnel and adjusted the speed of the air until the bullets floated in the cylinder. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ITS SAFE TO SHOOT UP INTO THE AIR AND I WOULD STRONGLY DISCOURAGE ANYONE FROM DOING THIS.
Tim,
Now that’s a story with a happy ending. Good for you!
B.B.
Thanks for going out on a limb about quality of Turkish vs. English manufactured Webley air rifles – I appreciate your candor.
Dragon Slayer,
I found Cocobolo RB grips on EBay and I love ‘m. Would love to see your grips – if you ever post them someplace, let me know!
.22 multi-shot
Tim in S.C.,
Yup, I’m new to the hobby and am having a great time with it so far – so much to learn, so much to try, etc.
I do plan on mounting a scope on my R7 in a few weeks. However, I wanted to do some open sight shooting with it before taking the plunge into scope-land. One step at a time… 🙂
As far as what I plan to shoot, that would be primarily paper targets (in my long garage @ 10 meters) with the occasional plinking of tin cans and whatnot with my brother out in the woods. I really don’t plan on hunting anything with fur or feathers.
Being new to the hobby, making a gun choice was difficult and after a lot of research I really felt like I would be best off to spend the extra $$ up front and get something of high-quality that I would want to keep for years to come. I think I made a great choice in the R7. 🙂
Matt61,
Thanks! I’ve got a box of Crosman Premiere Lights and a tin of JSB Exacts on order. Once I get a few hundred more pellets through the gun I’ll give those a shot. It sounds like the JSB Exacts tend to work best for a lot of people with an R7. Trial and error will determine if that is the case with mine as well.
Thanks for the tip on the seated position. After shooting about 100 pellets yesterday from seated I’ve got to say that I’m a bit sore LOL. As my wife’s Grandpa loves to say, “Gettin’ old ‘aint for sissies!!” 🙂 Maybe a shooting bench is in order…? 😛
Dear BB,
You opine that the Turkish Patriot is built better than the UK models due to better internal tolerances.
Can you tell me how you came to this conclusion? I’m looking to pick up a Patriot in the Spring but still have my reservations.
Thanks,
Vulcanator
Vulcanator,
Measurements. Piston diameter, shaft diameter, etc. All tighter on the Turkish rifle.
B.B.
i am having troubles sighting in.. i get 5 to 10 shots to shoot tight and then they start to scatter everywhere… and then when i click the adjustments up one ot twp i get good groups again and then then scatter
Mike,
You only need to ask a question one time. Please go to the other place you asked this question and I answered it.
B.B.
BB,
How does the Patriot (0.25) with a gas spring measure up against a Theoben Eliminator (0.25) in terms of accuracy? Which do you think is more sensitive to using the artillery hold properly?
Thank you for your wealth of knowledge,
Wayne
Wayne,
I had a LOT of trouble with the Beeman Crow Magnum in .25 caliber. So I had the barrel exchanged for a .20, and had more trouble with that one until Ben Taylor (the Ben in Theoben) told me about JB bore paste.
So I never got any accuracy at all from a Theoben Eliminator (Beeman Crow Magnum) in .25 caliber. No doubt a lot of that was due to a dirty barrel, but we will never know.
Therefore, I can’t tell you which rifle is more accurate in .25 caliber. All I can say is that when I cleaned the barrel with JB paste, the .20 caliber Eliminator/Crow Mag became quite accurate.
But remember, a .25 caliber pellet rifle is not in the same accuracy class as a .22 – probably because there aren’t great pellets for .25 caliber.
B.B.
BB,
Thanks for the advice. As far as 0.25 caliber pellets go, I remember reading that you tried to convince Crosman to make Premiers in 0.25 and they wouldn’t go for it.
Maybe after they see how much money you make for them by helping them to design/produce the Discovery, you can help them develop a 0.25 caliber rifle (maybe a different barrel for the Super Streak). Then they would have no coice but to procuce a 0.25 caliber pellet of their own!!
Wayne
Wayne,
It’s funny, but Crosman is starting to become receptive to many things they never liked before. They even talked about big bore guns. So who knows what we will see?
B.B.
Got a new Patriot today which would have been fine and dandy except the stock was damaged due to handling and poor packaging. Oh well, back to Pyramydair it goes!
It appears that Webley have made a few modifications to it. Have you handled a new one yet? If so I was wondering as to your opinion.
Vulcanator,
Webley shocked everyone when they let Hatsan make the changes on the current gun. Pyramyd AIR had no idea they were coming until they arrived last week.
We still don’t know what to do about the scope mount, which is no standard anywhere.
I haven’t tested this new model yet. The Turkish gun I tested appeared exactly like a British-made gun.
B.B.
BB,
Thanks for your response, I’m curious if the scope mount is permanently fixed to the cylinder. If the mount is non standard why did Webley let Hatsan make such a change?
Vulcanator,
I believe so, and I haven’t got a clue.
B.B.
Well, my new Mk2 Patriot is going back to pyramydair for a refund due to some quality and performance issues.
Whilst the finish on the new Turkish Patriots have improved greatly, the biggest let down has been the trigger. I find out through Webley that the official US importer wanted a trigger to pass a drop test-as a result we now have a re-designed unit that is inferior to previous Patriots!
I discover the new unit after tightening the stock screws and discovering that the forward trigger guard screw is actually a small wood screw that had stripped in the stock courtesy of the factory.
On a gun known for shaking its stock screws this is unacceptable. Webley and the US importer are aware how awful the new trigger is and a red-design is in the works.
When the Patriot has a decent trigger I’ll be buying another one. B.B. why don’t you check out one for yourself to see what I mean.
Vulcanator,
I already have. Pyramyd AIR has suspended Webley Patriot sales until Webley can get the quality back to where it belongs.
B.B.
I’m glad Pyramyd has taken that step, I feel bad for them having to deal with all the returns. I’ve been in extensive contact with the US distributor and Webley over this matter and apparently they are getting it sorted out.
Aside from the trigger what is your impression of the gun otherwise?
Vulcanator,
The rifle I saw wasn’t in the Patriot class. It was Turkish and very rough. It had a beautiful stock, but a non-standard scope base and rough finishing of the metal. The trigger weighed about 10 pounds.
B.B.
The rough finish of the metal you refer to is the new scope rail, correct? It appears that you feel that current Patriots aren’t as good as the previous Turkish patriots you reviewed favorably a while back. Also in light of the Patriot quality issues we are aware of, I was wondering if you could possibly get hold of each spring piston rifle in the current Webley range to assess their current performance, finish and triggers etc?
Thanks.
Vulcanator,
I was speaking of the metal preparation before the black oxide. The new scope base is another story.
B.B.
B.B.
I was browsing PA’s website and noticed that Webley Patriots have been discontinued. Owning one that I love, I did some research and found the many posts regarding a sharp drop in quality. I have been thinking of upgrading mine to a gas spring after reading your blog earlier this year. I’m concerned that I may miss my opportunity if the gas spring becomes discontinued as well. I noticed that PA states that the part will only fit British made Patriots. I purchased mine from PA in January of 2007 around the time you reviewed the first Turkish made models. The fit and finish of mine as well as build quality are excellent and I would like to do the upgrade. Do you know if this part will drop into my rifle? I’m guessing the compatability comment was added after the changes in build quality.
If your rifle looks like the old Patriot, it will work. Those guns were only finished in Turkey – they are British guns.
If it looks like a Hatsan (Walther Falcon Hunter) the gas spring ma still work, but I would ask Pyramyd AIR.
B.B.