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Education / Training Crosman V350M – a rare and special BB gun

Crosman V350M – a rare and special BB gun

by B.B. Pelletier

Some of you understood my tongue-in-cheek humor last week, when I told you about passing on two $100 BB guns at a flea market that turned out to be worth $600-800 apiece. But others did not, and someone was kind enough to advise me that perhaps I should have rethought that decision.


The bluebird of happiness…
Perhaps, 10 years ago, I was attending the now-defunct St. Louis airgun show and happened to see a strange Crosman airgun on one of the tables. The paper with it was a copy of an owner’s manual for the Crosman V350M BB gun. I knew about the V350. It was a spring-piston BB gun that cocks by pulling the barrel straight back–much the same as an old Quackenbush model 1 pellet gun.

The V350 mechanism was later dressed up by Crosman to look like an M1 Carbine and became one of the most iconic BB guns of modern times. But this V350M was unknown to me. It looked different, too. At the end of the barrel, there was a steel sleeve that was deeply knurled along the entire length. And along one side of the barrel ran a spring-loaded magazine tube for the BBs.

The Crosman M1 Carbine is a realistic copy of the World War II carbine. It’s a V350 dressed up.

The V350M looks like a standard gun except for the sleeve at the muzzle.

This steel sleeve at the muzzle helps with cocking, as any V350 owner will readily understand.

This external BB magazine didn’t come on the V350. I don’t know why it was added to the M model.

The standard V350 has its magazine internal to the receiver. BBs are poured down a hole and line up to be fed to the breech one at a time when the barrel is pulled back to cock the gun. So, it wasn’t necessary to put an external magazine tube along the outside of the barrel, but this gun had one.

It taunts me
For the first day of the show, I looked at this curiosity every time I passed the table. I didn’t know what it was, so I was very reluctant to show any real interest, even when collector Ted Osborn pointed it out to me and, at one point, forced me to listen to all its virtues. He wanted me to buy it.

Sometimes in life, we’re exposed to an opportunity for the briefest of moments. Only by luck or good instincts do we make the right moves and capture the moment.

It ridicules me…
At other times opportunity settles in right outside our door and allows its dog to dig in our flower garden and its children to play their music too loud. This kind of opportunity is like the relative nobody wants to see at a family gathering. It can ripen on your front walk until it rots and its blacked skin bursts open to allow the mushy flesh inside to sink into the concrete so deep you have to use a pressure washer to get it off.

That was the kind of opportunity this strange V350M represented. It was the main curiosity of this particular airgun show. You could ask any of the dealers what it was and they all said the same thing, “I don’t know.” And there were some very astute dealers at that show. Guys like Wes Powers, Bob Spielvogel and John Groenewold had their own tables where they had things like two boxed American Lugers with $1,000 marked on each of them, and even they didn’t know what this oddity was.

It slaps me in the face…
And I watched the whole episode play out in slow motion before my eyes. It wasn’t a fleeting chance at a brass ring. No, it was more of a, “Hey, we’ve got a truckload of ice cream and no place to put it. Anybody want some?”

And all I could think to do was to turn my head and walk away before somebody asked me whether I wanted to buy it for $100. Curious, yes–but don’t take me for a fool! A complete idiot, perhaps, but never a fool.

Finally, Ted Osborn got tired of pimping the gun to everyone else and came up with the cash himself. What a relief! I wouldn’t have to listen to that harranging any longer. I could look people in the eye once more. The airgun that was unheard-of-by-every-Crosman-collector-in-the-world was no longer for sale, thank goodness. What did I miss?

A super-rare gun, as it turned out. It seems that back in the days when Daisy was selling thousands of regular BB guns without sights to the U.S. Army for the Vietnam-driven Quick Kill instinct shooting program, for some reason Crosman decided they wanted a piece of the pie. The Army obliged with a public solicitation for instinct shooters.

The boys in the back room at Crosman took a stock V350 and added a knurled handle around the end of the barrel for easier cocking, plus an external BB magazine for heaven-knows-what-reason, and they tacked the letter M for military after the model number. Thus was born the V350M.

Are they rare?
Nobody knows exactly how many guns were made, but we do know that the military never bought it. It was never a civilian model, either. It’s likely the number of guns Crosman made ranged from six to twenty-five. Some big number like that.

What was I thinking? A man goes to an airgun show to see and buy airguns. I had just been steamrolled by the strangest modification of a modern Crosman airgun anyone had ever seen–only until that very show, nobody had ever heard of it. But for over a day, it pulled up its kilt and bared its rear end at me while shouting insults from across the aisle. All the while, I tried to pretend it wasn’t there because, I thought, maybe it’s a fake!

Do you think it was real?
Was it real, do you think? Well, if it wasn’t, some clever sharpie went to all the trouble of writing and printing a Crosman factory manual for the military, then copied it just to extort $100 from some unsuspecting rube like me! What will they think of next? Fake Rolex watches they can charge $20 for? Watches that actually run and tell time? Think about that for a moment, if you aren’t already laughing your head off.

Oh, yeah, it was real! I still have the mud stains on my bluejeans from where the dog shoveled dirt all over me. The V350M is still real today, and hundreds of advanced collectors know all about it–thanks to the diligent efforts of Ted Osborn. And I kept my hundred dollars safe under a rock, so when my master returned I still had it to give back.

The gun shown here is not the same one I saw at St. Louis. This is another one that was shown at Roanoke last October, and several have emerged from the woodwork in the years that have passed. We now know much more of the story than we did back then.

Thankfully, I still have my money!

You ain’t heard nothin’ yet. I got a million of them!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

176 thoughts on “Crosman V350M – a rare and special BB gun”

  1. B.B.
    10 years and it still torments you.
    It’s as if our minds receive some sort of perverse pleasure in opening that closet door and forcing us to look in again and again.
    So you have a million of them? Not good……. but you are not alone.


  2. Goodmorning B.B.

    Stuff passed up and don’t forget, the stuff that we sold that we sure wish we hadn’t. I’d sure like my first hand gun back. A Ruger .44 Mag, number 20882, bought new in I think 1963. Needed money for a reloading outfit to feed my 22-250.

  3. Mo,

    What a good answer to Maka’s question about cleaning his TX200, but what is the Walnut oil you told him about?

    PS If anyone happens to know the location of that Rugar, please let me know. Thanks very much Mr B.

  4. BB – in the motorcycle world of collecting, some bikes aren’t worth much at all. I had an opportunity to buy a 1908 Marsh Metz, a twin cylinder machine you had to peddle to start, like most bikes back then. I believe it was made in MA. I spoke to a number of serious collectors to find out more about this bike but, to a person, advised they weren’t interested in “widows and orphans”. This was a bike hardly anyone ever heard of. Had it been an Indian or Harley, the bidding price would have gone from $2500 to $25,000. No I didn’t buy it but like you, still kick myself. It probably still isn’t worth much. There’s a longer story involved with this machine but it really doesn’t bear telling on this blog.

    For you and me, hopefully, there will be more opportunities at “widows and orphans”.

  5. Mr.B.,

    I had a Ruger .44 with a 10-inch barrel. It wasn’t a Super Blackhawk–just a regular Blackhawk. I could shoot it with reasonably heavy loads and that long barrel resisted the recoil like no other revolver I’ve ever owned. And the smallis grip fit my hand perfectly.

    Now it’s a collectible and I can’t afford to get it back.

    And then there are the nine Colt SAAs I let slip through my hands. Please don’t get me started!


  6. The following information relates to the discussion a few blogs back, regarding how deep to seat a pellet in a break-barrel pellet gun.

    I just bought a “Beeman Pell Seat” to use with my Beeman R7 and any other break-barrel I may own in the future.

    Here’s what the instructions say: “…. Generally, top velocity depends on finding a pellet’s optimum tightness of fit in the bore. Performance will vary with different pellets and airguns. Only experimentation with different pellet seating depths will reveal the best fit and top velocity. In some instances, the top velocities will be achieved by only smoothing the skirt and leaving it flush with the rear of the barrel.”

    And speaking of break-barrels:

    I am planning to get one of the two following rifles, a Mendoza RM-600 .22 cal or an Air Venturi
    Avenger 1100 .22 cal.

    Mendoza makes both rifles. The specs listed on PA are nearly identical, but the Venturi has a lighter trigger pull: 2.5 lbs VS 5.1 lbs for the RM-600, and the RM-600 doesn’t seem to have forearm and grip checkering as does the Venturi.

    Rounding up the dollars, the RM-600 costs $163, while the Venturi costs $159. This means that you get a lighter trigger and a fancier stock for $4 less.

    BB’s review of the Venturi on September 22, 2008 noted that it tended to diesel/detonate and so the shot groupings weren’t very good because of that. In his test, there were large differences in muzzle velocity regardless of pellet type. BB also said that although the picture on PA’s website shows a Venturi with checkering, the one he tested had none.

    None of the reviews on the PA website mentioned problems like that for either rifle. In fact, the reviews were overwhelmingly favorable.

    I’m interested in comments from those of you who OWN either of these rifles, because I want to get one of them. The price difference is insignificant, but the Venturi seems to be the better deal because of the lighter trigger. I have a Mendoza peep sight that I got for my Beeman R7, and it shot 3 inches high with the sight at its lowest elevation, so I took it back off. I can mount it on whichever “Mendoza” that I get.

    Thanks, everyone.

  7. SavageSam,

    I assume you mean the V350M?

    It’s impossible to put a price on something so rare. I once had a man give me $1,000 for a BB gun I thought was worth $200 at most. So it really depends on who wants it.

    Maybe in another 10-15 years there will have been enough sales to establish a price.


  8. Witt,

    I had both the Avenger 1100 .177, 2 of them actually… and the RM-600, RM-2000 and RM-200 (great little rifle)… I don’t know why PA has the trigger pull listed so high.. the trigger on all of them, including the Avenger, was more light 2 lbs.. I never measured them, but they not 5 lb triggers… The triggers are what I loved most about them!
    The only one we still have is the RM-2000, it’s a .22 cal, and Nate loves the 7 shot mag and the great rear sight, too much to let it go..
    It does leak air around the breech insert that allows the magazine to fed the breech.. so it’s only getting about 600fps with a 16gr JSB.. but he doesn’t care!!

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  9. B.B.

    Thanks for your honest story of woe…

    It should serve to warn us to buy first and ask questions later.. right???

    I know I do that too much!!! .. but, one can sell at a slight loss, a bad purchase, but the really big one that got away, won’t get away as often..

    The collecting game is really fun. I’m noticing that friends help each other collect… Very interesting, especially on a piece that neither one has… I’m sure it has to do with one’s budget… But I think it’s more than that, there is a special bond among gun folks.. a “oneness”, so to speak.. Or at least a desire to reach out and share the joys of the hobby.

    I’m sure this is not the only hobby that folks do that, but in this one, the bonds form quicker, deeper, faster and more solid, than the others… IMHO!!!

    And thanks, so much with your personal help with my collecting!!

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  10. Here's my sob story.
    Back in the 70's I used to shoot with my dad. Because he had a career that kept him away from home about 9 months of the year, as I got older we just didn't connect that well when he was home.
    So I drifted away from shooting till a year ago when I took up air guns…all started by the purchase of my boys Red Ryder (I definitely started the dad thing at a late age…45).
    Anyhoo…about 10 years ago my dad, who was in failing health asked me if I wanted his guns as he felt it was time to get rid of them.
    'Why?', I stupidly asked and he sold them…which I now realize hurt him a lot as they were his pride and joy…but that's another story.
    So he got rid of:
    S&W Model 41 all 'targeted up'
    S&W Model 57 in .357 Magnum
    Ruger S.S. in .44 Magnum
    A set of matched Purdy shotguns in .12 and .410 guage
    A matched set of Weatherby rifles in 7mm Magnum and .22-250. When they were still made in Sweden
    A matched set of Winchester 1894 in .30-30 (I think) and .22LR
    A gorgeous Anschutz .22
    Others that I can't remember
    Reloading gear including a small smelter for melting down his own lead.
    I was such a dumbass.
    CowBoyStar Dad

  11. B.B.

    Sounds like that rifle kind of got to you. This was very entertaining although I have to admit that I still don’t understand what moves collectors. As a bb gun, this sounds like it would have marginal shooting performance. CowboyStar Dad, that’s quite a story, and I do feel for you. All I can say is don’t do the same to your kids when the time comes. I can sort of identify remembering the Anschutz 1407 in high school that I sold after one year because I couldn’t make any headway in shooting. I sure would love to have that rifle now, but the fact is that I wasn’t ready for the gun at that time. It seems like another life.

    As another parallel, I brought my carefully-honed airgun buying instincts to the new realm of rc planes recently. I carefully researched the models, reflected, made comparisons, did various calculations and risk analyses and then carefully made my purchase. It turns out that I brought exactly the wrong plane. I ran it into the ground 10 times before it gave out completely, and now I see in the literature that the plane is known for snapping its tail boom off and being hard to launch. Moreover, in a flash of ingenuity, I have another one since I spotted a good deal of two for the price of one.

    It seems that many of the joys and sorrows of gun-owning come about from being able to sell guns off. I know how to buy but how do you all do such a brisk trade in selling? There’s word-of-mouth bartering and selling. There’s ebay. And I suppose there are gunshows if you happen to live near them. Is that about it? I seem to get very possessive about the guns I own, so I don’t know if I would ever go this route, but I am curious.


  12. Matt61,

    Don’t go here:

    …or you’ll be sorry.. way to much buying and selling there… it’s like quicksand.. you can go in, but can’t get out.. you don’t sink enough to drown.. but your stuck there and can’t get out!!!

    CowBoyStar Dad,

    Ouch!! I feel for you.. lucky me, I got my dad’s only gun, a great .22 Remington semi-auto that my mom bought him just after they got married in 1946..


  13. Matt61,

    You must be a young man, because I don’t think you remember the former Soviet Union and their principal newspaper, Pravda, that well. Pravda is “Truth” in Russian, and from what I hear, that was about the only thing you never got in the paper. Sort of like NBC News.

    Anyhow, what has apparently slipped under your radar is the fact that THIS BLOG is a brisk forum for buying and selling.

    If you want to sell something, just talk about it here.


  14. CowBoyStar Dad again. I vaguely remember shooting the Model 41. It had custom grips with a palm shelf and was one of the reasons I went for the Gamo Compact a month ago. It seemed the most ‘look alike’ to what I remember dads 41 looking like.
    I also had a soft spot for the 1894’s, the reason there was not question when the boy wanted a B.B. gun it had to be a Red Ryder…a great value no matter what the reason.
    And the Purdy’s. They were side by side and could only be described as absolutely gorgeous.
    Dad passed away 3 years ago from lung cancer, which he was diagnosed with in 2001. He was told he probably had only 6 months. My wife was pregnant with our oldest (now 8) and dad said he wanted to be there to see his first (and only at that time) grandson be born. He lasted 5 years, all but the last 6 months in reasonable health. His doctor said afterwords the thing that kept him alive was his grandson.
    I get emotional every time I think of this.
    But I know that if there is a heaven for him to be in…he is looking down on his two grandchildren and their Red Ryders (which they both say are their best possessions), and I know he is smiling.

  15. CowboyStar Dad,

    I think I can make your day.

    You know that the model 41 was copied as an airgun by Smith & Wesson. They called it their model 789G in .22 caliber and 79G in .177.

    Here is a link to a short report I did way back in the beginning, but if you want more I can do it.


    By the way, a 78G would be a lot cheaper to buy and shoot, and almost as accurate as that old 41.


  16. Thanks for the link b.b.
    They look like they’d be very similar in feel to some of the Umarex pieces.
    One question.
    Are you familiar with the Rohm Trainer (the 8 shot pistol from Twinmaster)?
    It seems to good to be true. For less than $500 it looks great, and the idea of an 8 shot repeating target pistol is appealing.
    CowBoyStar Dad

  17. Cowboystardad,very sorry to hear that story,and of your Dad’s passing.I want you to know that you are a model father,and you inspire that in others when you share stories of shooting airguns with the kids.just remember troubles and regrets are God giving you exercise[to build strength]your family interaction made my christmas!!thank you FrankB

  18. CowBoyStar Dad,

    My dad passed from cancer too..

    You wet my eyes dude… maybe they can be friends up there in that rifle range in the sky..


    My son and daughter have little interest in shooting, but my son has showed interest the collection I’m building up..

    But, hey, send in the adoption papers anyway.. I want some grandkids!!!

    Wacky Wayne

  19. Frank B.,

    Yes, trickery is fairly common. I guess the Daisy Christmas Story Red Ryder is a good example. Many were made up from new parts after the run of guns was complete. Daisy sold the parts that were easy to fake.

    So to be real, a Christmas Story gun has to have its box and has to be in the right number range, which I think has to do with the printed numbers on top of the gun.

    The Benjamin Centennial commemorative is another one. Only the guns made with a U.S. county on them are genuine. They are many without a number or county that are just pretty guns.


  20. Wayne – Adoption papers are on the way. This package includes a beautiful 6 year granddaughter who I think is a little young yet but is definately showing some interest in the shooting sports!!

    What’s the weather like in Oregon this time of year? It’s been consistently in the low, low teens for the last couple weeks in Michigan, but it’s supposed to get up to 45 this weekend!! As a matter of fact I can feel the sun now. And if not mistaken I hear the pitter patter of little squirrel feet soaking up the sun in the backyard. Gotta go!!


  21. Re-reading that comment I realize I made it sound like I have a 6 year old grandaughter. That made me feel old!! (might have something to do with having my 31st b-day this week) It’s my daughter, going to be be Wayne’s grand daughter when he adopts me!!


  22. B.B.

    Heard of Pravda but have never read it.

    Yes, I noticed that business was picking up here radiating from the white-hot center of Wayne. I’m still in love with all of my airguns, so I will keep this in mind. But perhaps Vince will get some tuning business when my springs wear out.


  23. I sure like the looks of that M1 Carbine. I remember someone asking a couple times in this blog if anyone knew of such a gun, or similar type. I never saw anyone reply to help that commenter out. B.B. do you own that M1 in the picture or it a stock photo?


  24. B.B.,
    You are the nicest blogger on the web and your wife is the nicest editor, too. I sure would like to hear more about your nicely preserved nice M1.

    I may have poured it on too thick here because the word verification came up “squatim”.

    -Nicely appreciative Chuck

  25. Chuck,

    That blogger asked about other types of airguns that look military like the M1, garand, etc.

    He got answers. Numerous times. Don’t think he liked the prices of the limited options available.


  26. Hey Wayne,

    just heard you were looking to adopt. Not me but my 17 year old daughter who will be starting College this fall. You’ll pick up the tuition, won’t you?

    While she hasn’t shot my air rifles yet, last year she took a High School semester in Israel and spent a week with the IDF (Israeli Defense Force). who taught her how to shoot an M-16.

  27. OFF TOPIC: Need help from the Master Air Gunner…B.B., I have a Tech Force 99 Premier which I like very much. My problem is that it maxes out the elevation and windage on my scope, so I’m looking for a recommendation on good springer adjustable mounts. I only have 3 7/8 inches to work with on the dovetail length.
    Many thanks!

  28. Cworthy,

    I really like your blogger name.

    I’m curious. What scope and mount are you currently using on your tech force 99? What distances do you normally shoot?


  29. “SQUATIM” big heap,way to go Chuck.I too would like to hear more on M1…really want to hear more lessons learned at flea mkts. garage sales and the like.I know you’ve all got some!? C’mon Wayne,Kevin,BB,how ’bout you Vince?Dr.G,Mr.B;We’ve all learned a lesson this way…share the wisdom,misery loves company! FrankB

  30. Aaron,

    Hey, my birthday was on the 2nd, ground hogs day!!

    That sounds great!.. get a moving van… The weather was a beautiful 70 today.. partly cloudy nice clean air, didn’t get enough rain and snow from that one though… we are falling behind on our rainfall total so far.. I better do a rain dance!!
    I’ll teach ya’all when ye gits hear!! There’s a chance for snow on Monday, I better get to dancing.. how quick can you get here and help dancing? ..

    The guest bed is covered in guns and the full gun cases are stacked next to the bed, but one side is almost open, just be careful when you crawl in.. the pile is encroaching on the pool, and I don’t want an avalanche!!… So as soon as you get here, you can help build the spare gun/guest room…


    We gots a colledge closetest yad wanna be…. just 4 miles ta towne and campus… SOU.. Southern Oregon University!! and they can teach people to spell.. just not me!

    So Fred, send your daughter too.. instant family.. the Naturalyards LLC family is growing now.. so why not mine too..
    do ya think I should ask the wife and kids, or just have a surprise valentines day? Your daughter can work at the rifle range for her tuition… no free lunch!! .. just breakfast and dinner..

    Wacky Wayne

  31. Hi all,

    Would anybody be willing to do a nice detailed comparative review on some of the common pellets?

    I looked around and found a few articles, but nothing significant. Most often the focus is on the rifle and not the pellet.

    I’m not talking about groups. But general quality, consistency, appearance, effect on barrel etc. Most of us love CPs and Exacts, but some haven’t even seen em.

    Most of the reviews on calibre vs performance vs range, all mention certain pellets and their attributes, but nothing the other way round.

    I read the CP Hollow point report. Something along the same lines, but for pellets known for their performance.

    B.B, if you get the time, could you have a look into it??


  32. Frank B.

    Thank you sir!!

    I just own most of the Rifle Range LLC.. and do the gun buying and selling.. others are joining in the ownership by working on the range and sharing in the shooting fun.. now there are lots of different guns to shoot… way more than the existing members are shooting now… so come on down and play!!

    I guess the raised bed business is keeping them hopping a little too much to shoot as much as we both want..
    HHHMMM… that’s ok on some level isn’t it???

    Wacky Wayne wondering….

  33. Frank B,

    OK here’s my story. Makes me cringe everytime I think of it.

    I bought an investment property about 20 years ago near a major intersection on the west side of Denver, Colorado. The old maid had owned this turkey farm for almost 50 years. She died. Bought it from the estate. There were 5 buildings on the property. The main house was an up and down duplex. She lived upstairs and the downstairs hadn’t been rented in years. It was flooded with water. The second building was a small (500 sq ft) single family residence. The third building was a 3 car garage with an apartment over the top. The fouth and fifth buildings were the turkey coops. Approximately 30 feet wide and 120 feet (yes, 120 feet) long. The executor sold the property “as is, where is, no representations or warranties, all personalty included (will not be delivered in broom clean condition).”

    I could write a book with many chapters about this holding but I’ll tell you two stories.

    First, she hadn’t raised turkeys for probably 20 years and the barns were in bad shape. One of them I couldn’t salvage. Took a front end loader and dug a trench on the property to bury the remnants of the barn. In digging the trench I uncovered a cemetary of turkey bones. About eighteen feet across and ten feet deep and at least 50 feet long (that’s as far as I needed to excavate). One of the old timers in the neighborhood told me about a disease her turkey’s had and her entire flock died and she buried them on the property.

    Second story. The other barn that I salvaged was full of stuff. Her treasures. Because of a leaking roof most of these “treasures” (read, junk) had to be hauled off to the dump. One thing that I sold was an old 1950’s something convertable belvedere (sp.?). I don’t know anything about “vintage cars other than they’re hard to find parts for, not as comfortable to ride in and remind me of a time when they were all I could afford and spent a lot of my time underneath them. I put an ad in the paper and sold it for $500.00. I didn’t have the title so I wrote out a bill of sale with the details of how I legally acquired the car (included in a real estate purchase). About 2 years later I got the phone call. The guy I sold the car to had sold it. The almost new owner was calling me for a notarized affidavit in order to get a valid title. My buyer had fixed up the vehicle and sold it at some prestigious auto auction. Price? $185,000. Yep. The car I sold was one of 10 or 25, I don’t want to remember.

    Here’s the kicker. Unlike B.B., I no longer have the $500.00.


  34. Hi, Kevin — mine is the 22 caliber, and I put a cheap Daisy 3X9 on it while I’m breaking in the gun (only 700 rounds so far). The Daisy won’t hold up to the springer, but it did allow me to discover that the 99 Premier is worth investing a few more dollars.

    Cheaperthandirt has the Leapers 4X16X50 (Leapers UTG SCP-416 AOMDLTS) on sale for $72, which seemed like an outstanding price. That’s why I’m looking for new mounts.

    I’ve been shooting primarily from 25 to 40 yards at various targets and one very dead squirrel in my back yard. Those doggone critters have been damaging the siding on my house! The word must be getting around in the squirrel community, as I haven’t seen one in quite awhile.

    Hope that helps!

  35. Kevin,

    I started to cry for you… but then I thought of your mountain home..

    But just think of the rifle range you could have built in those barns…?? is the property gone too.. at bargain prices?

    My dad, grandfather and I bought, fixed up and RE-SOLD, darn it!! about 60 houses while I was growing up in the 1950s to 70s.. if dad had held on and rented every other one… well he was buying them for $3,000 to $15,000, in the late 60s when I was old enough to notice.. many had small citrus groves of a few acres… they probably go for 3 or 4 million each now in souther cal..

    that’s life..


  36. Damn Kevin!that one has me nearly speechless.talk about an expensive education…Now you've got me wondering.That story will cost me some sleep in the next couple months.I'll briefly tell you why…you see I've just sold my house in New Orleans.well I've signed the papers anyway.I have a bad back{2 discs]and I have 2&1/2 months to move out.the house is 70 years old and full of stuff from a neighbor who passed[after Katrina].I have a plan to just pack up my essentials.that would be airguns,tools,books,electronics and little else.Then sell/give away the rest.now I'm gonna have to scrutinize everything 3 times to make sure I'm not giving up a Davinci or the Hope diamond…Not actually,at 42 I know you can't have it all and stuff is just that,STUFF.the best thing one can have are Friends and enough to Share! Thanks for the story,I really would like to visit if I get to the west coast this summer.Then maybe we both go pester Wacky Wayne!!!That would be my idea of an awesome summer!!!FrankB

  37. Kevin & Frank,

    Come on DOWN.. your the next two contestants in the Wacky Waynes Wonderful Water Wagon Wride…. How many balloons can you two get out each side of the Waziboy on the way down the mountain side..

    And who sits in it, and who on top of the others shoulders?

    Wacky Wayne

  38. Cworthy,

    Ok, you're using a lightweight scope and plan to go to a heavyweight (Leapers, 4-16×50). This question becomes all the more important:

    What mount are you using? If it isn't a one piece, tell me the scope rings you're using in conjunction to the mount.

    With the larger, more adjustable scope (leapers, 4-16×50) you may have enough adjustment without changing mount/rings.

    However, unless you have a "beefy" mount & rings that new, heavier scope may need a new mount and/or rings.

    The easy answer used to be, Buy B-Square Adjustable rings or one piece B-Square mount with adjustable rings. Unfortunately, (forgive me PA) the QC on these rings/mounts has suffered. From first hand experience I can tell you they won't work effectively with a heavy scope on a strong springer. Even though I've read that the tech force 99 doesn't come close to advertised velocities I think with the heavy scope you've choosen that we need a good solution to your problem of adjustment or it will get worse.

    Tell me more about what you have and lets see if we can build on it.


  39. Hey Wayne!

    Yea, the property is gone. That was my last rental property I sold. I bought my first rental at 20 years old. After having rentals for almost 25 years I got tired of hearing every excuse imaginable (and some unimaginable) not to pay the rent, got tired of people leaving in the middle of the night that owed me rent and got tired of spending evenings and weekends either cleaning up other peoples messes or repairing my property that someone else damaged or waiting on prospective tenants to show up to rent a place and tear up what I just fixed. I got to the point where I didn’t like anyone because of what tenants put me through. I’m happier now.

    There’s a saying, “You can only really know a person by either marrying them or renting to them.” In my experience it’s true.

    Yea, when I think about the property I used to own, and what it’s worth today, I just think about the tenants that would have been necessary for me to put up with in order to keep the property this long and I smile and sleep very peacefully that night.


  40. Kevin,

    Thanks, great point of view, I wasn’t considering… Things aren’t always what they seem…. but that’s what living is for… learning life’s lessons..

    Sleeping peacefully at night is priceless…


  41. Kevin, you have precisely hit upon the dilemma . . . I need adjustable elevation/windage as I have the scope optically centered and would like to not run off 80 clicks to sight it in. I used the Daisy mounts, just to try it out, and could not come close without maxing out the adjustments. I suspect that situation might be improved with quality mounts, even if not adjustable.

    I tried a B-Square 17701 one-piece, but it was a 1/2 inch too long. With the scope stop in place, I have just 3 7/8 inches of usable length on the dovetail grooves. The Beeman 5039 is 4.5 inches, so that’s no good either.

    So far, the 2-piece mounts I have found were adjustable for elevation only. I suppose I may have to settle for that. Any ideas?

  42. Wayne,Would you be offended if I brought my own lazyboy? you see I spend alot of nights sleeping in a recliner because of my back.lots of nights I’ve fallen asleep dreaming up rediculous[and not so rediculous]bolt on accessories.speakers,remote and laptop tables,etc.etc. so maybe we could fly in formation or have airsoft dogfights!!![ducttape sold separately] LMAO FrankB

  43. Frank B,

    I didn’t know you were in New Orleans. I love the French Quarter! Some of my favorite restaurants.

    The first time I went to New Orleans was years ago for a short visit. We ended up in what I think was the original bennigans? Their happy hour was oysters for ten cents a piece. You stood at a bar with 3-4 guys shucking and one guy was tallying how much you ate. Afterwards we went to a swaggy restaurant and had one of the greatest meals. Wish I could remember the name of the restaurant. We left the restaurant and had reservations at Al Hirts jazz club. We were seated right behind Cesar Romero and he must have been good friends with Al Hirt because he spent half his set playing right in front of Cesar Romero’s table.

    Left Al Hirts club and discovered our van had been towed. It was so late, and back then the french quarter was so tough that you couldn’t get a cab to come down there at that time of night. We had to walk about five miles to where the van had been towed. Met some interesting people along the way. No fights. I think they thought we were aliens. Never saw our kind in those places at those times.

    Love your town.


  44. Cworthy,

    For some reason the rest of my comment was cut off. Hopefully this will work since I don’t want to type this again.

    Have you considered lapping the rings?

    Then you can create epoxy shims. Google epoxy shims. The process makes sense even though I have never done it. You get a two part epoxy stick, work it together (like two part epoxies are famous for) place it sparingly around your scope (covered with plastic wrap), then mount in the rings, adjust and let dry.

    Another option is burris signature rings with inserts.

    Another option is Mac 1 custom mount.


  45. I love it here but life is too short to gamble it living somewhere so dangerous…I’m talking remorseless humans,not nature.Fine people here,just not all of them.Ifthe future puts me in your neck of the woods,I’ll not only bring you something nice from N’awlins,I’ll make us some Gumbo and Jambalaya yeah…FrankB BTW,the last 2 hurricanes wiped out half the oyster grounds,they’ll be priced like Gold for several years.get em while you can!The surviving crop was fantastic from the extra nutrients in the water[go figure]

  46. Cworthy,

    Sorry the first step about lapping the rings involves a “sanding” process for the interior of your rings that insures complets (360 degree) contact with your scope prior to the epoxy step. Google “lapping scope rings:.


  47. Millett rings are adjustable from left to right,and you could shim for elevation…be sure to search this blog for”optically centering your scope BEFORE you set up custom ring arangement,all you need is a box,a knife,and some time…You must do this to get it right!!!!!! FrankB

  48. Thanks, Frank . . . already did the centering, and I’ll check out the Millets.

    Herb, I’m sorry, but no chrony . . . It does have some very nice improvements from the original 99. I would guess probably around 750 – 800fps with mid-weight pellets for my 22 caliber. It packs a real punch, I know that much. Here’s another review on the .177 version:


  49. Frank B,

    Of course you can bring your own chair…

    We’ll have to get Matt61 and B.B. to help get them off the ground though… I’ll start on cedar frames for the duct tape and rice paper…

    Wow that was a great expo on building a stock… not sure I like the shape myself.. but impressive none the less!!


  50. Kevin,

    Well, yeah… which one.. the S&W 79g pistol .177 (I got for Cowboydad, if he wants it for the $90 I'm paying for it), on the yellow… or the Crosman 761XL for $45 that I thought I had, but Anthony Storey aced me out under the email radar):):)…

    "the Silver Streak .20 cal pump by crosman 1999 mfg., works fine holds air and shoots hard has williams peep sight bright crome nickle finish in very good shape no dents or rust wood is good also.sold as is… shipping 22.00 to the lower 48 states" on Gunbroker?

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  51. Wayne – I’d love to help build your gun room. But I should tell you before the adoption is fianl I like to listen to Kid Rock at high decibels while I shoot my airguns in the house. Is that going to be a problem??

    Hapy b-day to you sir, mine was the 4th. What is it they say about the age of aquarius?

    Also, my super sweet g-friend got me the pyramid air 4 pack for my b-day. Crossman premiers in the box, JSB exacts, JSB predators, and beeman crow magnums. Turns out I conviently sent her my PA wishlist a week or two before my b-day. She also picked me up a copy of the movie Fargo. I think she’s a keeper!!


  52. Cworthy,

    I see you are having problems mounting your scope to have sufficient elevation. You have optically centered it and wish to preserve the elevation. I must comment that a TF99 is not a gun I would use an optically centered scope on, because it doesn’t have the accuracy needed to shoot field target, but that’s not my business. The question is, what can be done?

    Have you tried turning the rings around? Often, when you turn them around, the problem goes away. With 2-piece rings, just swapping the back and front can make the difference. And you can turn one or both rings around, too!

    I just wondered if you had tried that.


  53. Mo,

    Besides the JSB pellets already mentioned, I have profiled the Beeman Kodiaks:


    Gamo Rockets:




    I also looked at the RWS Hobby:


    Here is a general report on how to find the best pellet:


    And here is a 2-parter on pellets:


    Here is an old one on picking pellets:


    And this is an interesting article about sorting pellets for better accuracy:


    Here is one called My top 5 pellets:


    And here is one titled More on pellets:


    This one is titled Best pellet of all, but it covers several pellets:


    This is a profile on the Beeman Kodiak, which is known outside the U.S. and the H&N Baracuda:


    This report is titled How to pick pellets for any springer:


    Here is a 2-parter on the Crosman Premier Hollowpoint:


    There are other pellet articles, but these were the most germaine of the ones I found.


  54. Thanks, B.B. — that’s worth trying. This 99 in the Premier version gives me decent spreads at 30 meters. Not good enough for competition, but fine for my purposes.

    Surprisingly to me, the best pellets have been the Crow Magnum 18.2 and the RWS Super HP 14.2, with the RWS slightly better. A couple of the Exacts are o.k., as is the 21.1 Kodiak, but none of the other 27 I have tried come even close.

  55. B.B.,

    Swapping and/or turning the rings. Completely forgot about that potential fix. Brilliant. Cworthy, please try this.

    B.B. if it’s not too painful, and you have the time, I’d like to hear your car story. Cathartic. If not, I empathize.


  56. Wayne,

    Re: Gun you purchased and getting in your will

    I was referring to the crosman 761XL. Thought you had it. The S&W 79G looks interesting. I know it's modeled after the S&W 41 but it reminds me of a very accurate .22 colt huntsman that I own. I'll bet you'll like that 79G since it's heavy like the 586 and accurate like your new MKI (MKII?). Did you see the great artcile B.B. did on the 78G/79G back in 2005? Almost three guns in one night?? Wayne, I think we're related. I need to do some more research on that. I'll get back to you.


  57. RE: Trying pellets

    It seems that “trying them all” is futile. I’d guess that there are probably no more than a dozen pellets that would be the best over all rifles.

    I had made a suggestion that PA enable the posting of group sizes with different pellets, so that relative performance of pellets could be judged for a particular rifle. The idea is that at least two different pellet group sizes would have to be posted. It would then be the relative size of the groups that would be important.

    For instance the Mendoza hollowpoints have a solid tail. I can’t imagine that any gun shoots them best, but I do think that I have found a use for them. More later.

    I always though washing pellets was silly. I just got some Eun Jin pellets and the tins have shards.

    Pellets, pellets everywhere,
    And not a pellet to choose,
    Pellets, pellets, everywhere,
    And all the groups did shrink


  58. Herb,

    You struck a chord with me.

    I'd like to see PA creat a pellet sampler. 25 each of twenty five different pellets for $25.00. Depending on labor & packaging cost this could be a profitable product. More to the point, it would undoubtedly lead to more pellet sales of different types of pellets that consumers are unwilling to try now since the purchase of an entire tin may be wasted.

  59. RE: Sampler

    Such a sampling package is out there from a different vendor.

    The numbing variety of pellets seems overkill. You’d have to have a low, medium and high power gun categories. But I’d bet that a dozen basic pellets would cover that. Then a few specialty pellets like hollowpoints.

    PA has a wide variety of pellets because that is what customers want. I doubt that the wide variety is necessary for performance.


  60. Sad story?

    “do over’s” would certainly be nice, but generally expire at age 8.

    If they were available past that, I would allow those to people that didn’t see the drunk driver coming, or something a little more life altering then a BB gun.

  61. CWorthy,

    If switching the rings does the trick, you’re in luck; it most likely wont center the scope on both axes. Its still important because every set of rings I’ve ever had has had one orientation that makes the scope paralell to the bore: Without that, your windage adjustments will give you no end of trouble.

    Shims or lapping will work, assuming the recoil is not too harsh for two-piece rings. My 36-2 mangled two sets of two-piece rings in under a week. Rebuilding the powerplant made it possible to run cheap rings with tape shims and no slippage, although I had gotten so fond of open sights with it that I took the scope back off.

    If you go to the trouble of lapping, I would suggest a one-piece mount to start with. There are some drooper mounts, but they are pretty expensive for this class of rifle, at least to me.


    I’m going to respectfully differ with you. I won’t even mount a .22LR scope without it being close to optical center. On a buck-and-snort like the TF99 most likely is, an off-center scope will break much more quickly and the zero will wander even if it doesn’t break. More importantly, if the scope axis is not very precisely aligned with the bore, you’ll have a rifle that is only good for one range — those are suitable only for tomato stakes and weekend benchrest/range shooters.

    Due to variations in production, I won’t argue the accuracy of a TF99 — although I wouldn’t hesitate to try my 36-2 in FT, if that appealed to me.

  62. Kevin,

    Thanks for the look into deep space!!

    It’s a must to get ones perspective back!!

    I got the nickle Silver streak.. still haven’t heard back on the 79g.. and I’ll go back and read B.B. post on it.. but it’s for Cowboydad, if he wants it..

    I’m sure there is some connection.. you’ll find it Bro..


  63. Kevin,

    It’s not one story, but two. Neither involved a car–you clearly have me beat there.

    One involves a quarter-million-dollar contract I lost because my competitor clearly and intentionally underbid the out-years of a five-year contract (initial year with a four-year option). The violation was a wink and a nod that the contracting officer allowed because he felt he was getting a better deal.

    The “winner” then tried to hire me to perform the work, because he had no resources who could do it. I refused (realizing I was about to have a very lean year, and hoping it would not last longer than that) and forced him to hire a string of others who failed in rapid succession. The contract was terminated with prejudice before the end of the first year, but when they re-competed it, they rewrote it to keep my involvement under stricter controls.

    The effort in question was that I taught government contracting and how to do competitive solicitations, which was the horrible irony of the whole mess. They were screwing around while hiring a man to teach them how to conduct solicitations in accordance with their own rules and laws!

    The second one is probably closer to your situation. My grandmother was an antique dealer of note from New York. She had an original Duncan Phyfe tilt-top dining table made with a bookend-matched flame-grain mahogany top. When she died, my mother inherited the entire contents of her store, including that table and several other things that had been earmarked for me, when I grew up. None of those things ever became mine.

    My mother sold the table back in the 1970s, and I doubt she even got $1,000 for it. Today if it were to appear on Antiques Roadshow, both Kenos would be standing next to it. In fact, I shudder to think that someday I will see it on the show, because I loved that table–aside from it’s intrinsic valve.


  64. B.B.,

    Thanks. Sorry to make you relive those memories.

    Ah yes. The government. Seems that when we involve ourselves with them it always ends up costing us. Tragic.

    Your second story really makes me cringe. I love the antique roadshow. Those keno brothers sure know their furniture. What I like most about the show is when they quote prices that make me fall out of my chair. More often than not it’s the kenos and an old piece of furniture (like a duncan-phyfe tilt top dining table) that knocks me over.


  65. Aaron,

    I'm still thinking on that one:):)…

    Cowboydad, I got the S&W 79G .177 pistol.. are you interested? I can email the pics George sent me.. I need to tell him where to ship by Monday..


  66. Cowboydad,

    I hope you don’t feel like you have to buy it.. I want it too!!..
    I don’t have one yet..

    But, I have a great advantage here on the west coast.. 9 pm here is midnight on the east coast.. some people post late at night, and the west coast folks get first “shot” at stuff.. besides, I love to shop!


  67. Regrets, I’ve had a few;
    But then again, too few to mention.
    I did what I had to do…


    Pellet samplers – have existed and as Herb noted are still hand made by some dealers. Also, sometimes people on the yellow sell them. If a pellet type is questionable, I will make it my “free “ one at PA. I know, but it is easier to swallow if they are aren’t any good.

    After awhile if I can’t get a pellet to work in any of my rifles, I will often just pass them along when I sell an air gun of the same caliber. Usually I get a big thank you for the surprise tin. Alternatively, I have also sold groups of them by caliber to guys that are not that picky.


    Happy Birthday – don’t forget: The older the fiddle the sweeter the tune.

    It seems like just yesterday I was posting links to the yellow and gunbroker for you. Now you are the undisputed king.

  68. B.B. and Kevin,

    In college, I heard a talk by a survivor of Vietnamese refugee camps. He said the daily and ongoing horrendous battle for survival taught him an important lesson. I pricked up my ears at this one thinking that he knew whereof he spoke. He said that the big secret is…not to get upset about things going wrong no matter how bad they were. There was almost always another way, and the energy spent agonizing over something is generally more costly than the loss–as well as futile. This has always seemed like a good proposition to me: Take it easy in order to take it easy.

    Wayne, happy birthday and what am I supposed to be getting off the ground?


  69. RE: Spinning pellet like a top

    Got my Cardew book ““From Trigger to Target” from England on Friday. Weekend is going to be “wasted” reading the book.

    I was surprised that they had already done a couple of experiments I though of. One that I found interesting was that they spun pellets like a top to see how well the weight was distributed. No real data as I remember, just an overall description of the experiment.

    They did another pellet analysis that I’ll discuss later. I think this one would be worth doing for all pellets. to get some more information besides just weight, length, and skirt diameter.


  70. Thanks, BG_Farmer — a one-piece adjustable was my first choice, but no luck on finding one short enough.

    I have a couple of inquiries waiting reply from vendors, but I’m leaning toward the Burris Signature rings with the adjustable inserts…not one piece, however.

    Actually, this $28 Daisy is still doing fine…stays put and on target, so I don’t really think I’ll have any trouble using quality rings, even with the heavier scope–but I was wrong once before.

  71. Aaron,

    See if you can identify a favorite scene in the movie, Fargo. Mine is the one where the tiny naked man goes sailing over the couch….

    During my tenure in Minnesota, I encountered a few individuals who hated that film. I found out, belatedly, that they were the closest to some rather unattractive characters in that film. Mostly, it’s a stereotype although a funny one.

    All, while looking to the future and getting ready to push the button on my next rc airplane, it occurred to me to wonder how things would be different if the blog forum here enabled avatars which I think is the name for the identifying images that some people post on some forums. One of them had me about helpless with laughter for almost an hour. It was the picture of a man with no pants facing away from the camera and holding up a barbell while his fingers were laced behind his neck. Kind of juvenile but something about this picture combined with his scathing and superior criticism about some planes being “weird-looking” just about incapacitated me, and I could hardly shoot afterwards.


  72. CowBoyStar Dad,
    Thanks for sharing such a personal story. Brought tears to my eyes. Blessings bro. I haven't had to cross that bridge yet as both parents are still living and approaching nonagenarian status.

    Your story brought to mind a recent memory. A couple years ago mom & dad sold the homeplace and everything in it to move into a retirement home. I could tell that dad was happy when he asked me if I wanted his guns and I said sure! Small collection, only 3 guns, but meaningful to him. He told me(again) the story of his first deer (I also have the buck mount next to his photo with it) he shot with his beautiful walnut sporterized Model 98 Mauser.

    Then we reminisced about the many squirrel hunts in the woods with the .22s. He always used the unscoped single shot, pull to cock (old Springfield bolt action). My brothers & I saw many a squirrel fall to his well placed head shots. His kill ratio was always higher than ours even though we were shooting the newer scoped .22. Also retold the story of after returning from one of our squirrel hunting trips, my mom told my youngest brother that we were out in the garage dressing the squirrels and my little brother asked mom what clothes dad was putting on the squirrel. My kids were also impressed with dad taking out a muskrat with a headshot at 50 yards with that unscoped .22 when he was in his 70s.

    I asked him about the old Daisy 25 we kids learned to shoot with but he didn't know what had happened to it. Maybe one of my brothers has that one.

    Again, thanks for sharing CBSdad. I feel like you guys & gals are close friends, even though we've never met in person. Hope to do that someday this side of heaven.


  73. Volvo,

    Not the King, Prince, or Rook… maybe the Joker..

    But having a lot of fun none the less!!

    I haven’t shot the Air Arms s410 on full power that much.. today the weather was great and I decided to see how she was in her new field target stock.. I had switched with the AA 400 MPR FT 14 foot lb. beauty.. So now I have a knee rest and adjustable cheek and butt rests.. and thus a perfect fit for sitting and standing field target..

    On full power, with 10.2 JSB .177, (last I checked they would be going 1041fps, so I just never shot on full power).. I was amazed to find no need to aim high from 15 yards to 50 yards!!!

    And better still I got a solid 1″ group of 10 shots on the bull at 50 yards.. sitting FT!! so they ain’t tumbling!! and the gun fits me just fine!!

    What I love again is that I can use the single shot insert when in a contest, but when practicing, the 10 shot mag side lever beauty AAs410, lets me get those 200 practice shots in way less time… more time to shop, don’t ya know!!


    Still thinking about it….:):)

    Did I mention our dogs, Rouge and MacKinsey.. for the rivers, because they love to swim… although that’s not how you spell the river north of here.. but what you need to know is we NOW call him Mac, for Mac truck… all 77 pounds… And Rouge should have been named bouncy, bouncy Tigggeeerrr.. he can bounce straight up and kiss a 7′ guy on the lips before he knew he was married.. we’re still working on what it means to say hello.. of course you could help with that process…

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  74. OldOne,

    Thanks for those two links to the space photo’s. No, I didn’t know about those. Wonderful stuff!

    I get a little lightheaded when I view some of the photos taken in space. The other beauty, the vastness, the enormous number of planets, the thought of how many might be inhabited, etc. mind boggling.

    We sure live in a great time.


  75. Volvo & others,

    I'm aware of two other sites that sell pellet samplers. Just wish PA would consider this as well. I think it could turn into a profit center for them.

    I like the enormous selection of pellets. I'm a little pellet crazy. I must have 40 different pellet types. Some that aren't even available in this country.

    Sometimes I'm bored with knowing what a certain gun can do with a certain pellet if I do my part and instead I'll get out 4 or 5 pellet types that I've never tried in that gun and see what will group. Keeps me interested.


  76. Kevin,

    Yes, I think that’s what they call it.. just tried it for the first time:):)…

    Just found out that gravity still works here in southern Oregon.. When I shoot the 35 yard FT target, in between the 15 and 55 yard, I do have to aim low.. so the pellet IS in an arch of about 5/8″ between 0 and 50 yards.. that’s way less than the 12 ft. lb. USFT which is like 3″..

    But, the ability to center on 15 and 55 both without scope adjustment is real nice..

    So, that’s workable.. I just have to aim a little low on mid-range shots..


  77. B.B. & Joe,

    I'm sure you could add some advice here for me.. if you have time..

    Part two of "field target scopes".. just a little taste here?.. It might have something to do with "clicks"…
    or do folks just aim high or low, that's the camp I'm in now..

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  78. Wayne,

    As you know I’m not an FT Shooter but the game fascinates me. I’ve read quite a bit, especially by Joe McDaniel.

    FT Shooters do both. Hold over hold under shooters usually are the losers and people that click usually score higher.

    Here’s a good thread including a comment from Joe McDaniel that has links imbedded in his comment to AAFTA. On the AAFTA site there is an education tab at the top that has an enormous amount of good information.



  79. B.B. and All,

    My brother-in-law Denny, just came in with a new in box 12 ga shotgun. It’s an over and under “Huglu” 103 F inlaid with real silver, with beautiful gold ducks.. walnut stock.. just a work of art… I couldn’t imagine shooting it!!

    He got it from a friend who brought it in from Turkey… he wants to sell it and needs to know what it’s really worth here in the states..

    Anybody have ideas..


  80. CWorthy,
    I meant lapping a 1-piece mount. For some reason, I thought I determined the Leapers Accushot mount would work, but I never tried it, sorry. I’ve also been thinking about buying one of the Leapers compensator mounts for RWS/Diana and sawing off the shoulder (sorry, BB:)), but I just don’t like scopes enough to mess with it so far. If yours isn’t throwing scopes, it is much smoother than mine was out of the box:).

    Try http://www.shotgunworld.com, also. I don’t see a Huglu forum, but I’ve seen them mentioned.

    I forgot — add one more vote for the M1 review update.

    Do you know about the Marlin Model 99M1? It seems like something you might enjoy, and the picture of the M1 BB-gun reminded me of it.

  81. Wayne,

    Holdeover vs click adjustments is a topic all of its own. I started FT using the holdover method and graduated to click adjustments after two years, so I have tried both extensively.

    I have taken a note to add that as it’s own separate Field Target Scope topic — a part 3 to the report.


  82. BG_Farmer, Kevin

    Thanks, for the links..
    I was reading up on them last night.. seems like it's a grab bag.. some are very well made..and others not… I do like that it's a worker owned company!! I read that service folks are getting them in Turkey for $200-300.. and Denny paid $600… he was hoping for a big profit.. it ain't happening… buy the time he pays a broker to through them.. he will be lucky to break even..

    I told him to try and sell it direct to a friend..

    I'm looking for a 20ga, that's easy to shoot and worth collecting.. Josh and Nate want me to go turkey hunting with them.. They said I should have a 12ga… but I saw how sore their shoulders were from practice.. I'll use a choke and get closer.. will that work for turkey and geese?


    That would be a great addition to the scope blog… thanks very much!

    Do you know if PA would swap stocks on a AAs410 with a AAs400 MPR FT.. or do they sell just the action.. I want another AAs410 with a field target stock & knee rest..

    Kevin, those "Demos" are very good.. I can picture what I'm trying to do now.. It really helps a lot!


    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  83. Wayne,

    Glad you got some use out of the demo’s. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. That must mean an interactive teaching website must be worth a million words.

    Wayne, I vote for a 12 gauge (my preference for your hunting needs would be a double barrel that would allow interchangable chokes). You rarely sneak up on geese and these are very tough birds that are usually shot at longer ranges while passing over you in the sky. We regularly backed up our first loads with double (OO) buck. If you’re lucky, you can get a close shot on a turkey if you’re a good caller. Turkeys are big, strong birds too. Turkeys are smarter than any other bird I’ve hunted. This is the reason that Ben Franklin wanted to make the turkey our national bird rather than the bald eagle.

    Keep the gun tight against your shoulder and you won’t feel the kick when you’re shooting at game (a turkey or a goose). You won’t remember your rifle kick either when you shoot your first elk.

    Lastly, a collectible gun and a field gun are typically mutually exclusive. A field gun will get scarfed up. It’s inevitable. If you want a collectible, pay close attention to the condition when you buy it and keep it in the safe. If you want a field gun, condition doesn’t matter, performance does.


  84. B.B.

    Thanks, I will ask them..

    On the Daisy VL caseless cartridge .22

    The Blue book says “add 50% for checkered underlever, cheekpiece, monte Carlo stock”
    There is one on Gunbroker that has the plastic checkered stock with cheekrest… but there is no checkering on the underlever itself..
    Do they mean checkering on the plastic stock?

    It’s a pretty clean one.. but the bidding is close to the high end of the blue book value of $225.


  85. B.B.,

    I wish to purchase a new, single-shot (each pellet loaded individually) spring or single pump pistol of either caliber (prefer .177) that will consistently shoot 5-shot 5/16″ groups at 10 meters. The pistol must be able to be scoped with a red dot or 2x scope (preferably), and the entire package must cost under $740.

    After the above requirements are met, the trigger and the power of the air pistol are the other most important factors, as if I get skilled then one day I might want to kill 10M and closer posing rats and squirrels with head shots.

    The 5G Magnum seemed to be a good pick, but I understand than it cannot be scoped? I think that with Crazy Glue anything is possible and I wonder if you think that it could be scoped (I have used thermal insulating tape all over my Custom .25 Condor and Duct Tape on some of my other expensive air rifles, so you can see that I primarily care how the thing works and not much how it looks).

    I am also considering the Beeman P5; Daisy Avantis; IZH 46 M; and HW 75.

    I own a Beretta 92 FS air pistol and am no longer satisfied with it 10M accuracy …no better than 3/4″ even when scoped. I would describe its trigger as “acceptable” or a “4” on a 1-7 scale, and would like a crisper trigger with less creep. I have a medium size hand.

    What do you suggest? Thanks.

    – Dr. G.

  86. B.B.

    I don’t like the plastic, or VL system either..

    Since they only made about 19,000, I was wondering how many might be left, and if they were worth collecting.. are bad ideas still worth collecting, sometimes?


  87. Wayne,

    20G is a beautiful thing, in its place — upland use, in particular, and an expert shotgunner loses very little with it. However, for geese, ducks, and turkey and presumably a first scattergun, the 12G is the way to go: more selection on shells, etc., etc., etc.

    As far as recoil, a 12G can be comparable to a 20G, since good 20G’s are scaled in size (less weight = about the same recoil). The only caution I have there, is don’t assume you need 3.5″ shells — they can be painful for very little gain in performance.

    A semi is considered the lowest recoil gun, correctly so. Pumps aren’t bad. Field doubles are fairly punishing in (pre-hunting) practice, but “trap” guns are heavier and more comfortable to shoot.

    Also, be aware that the current trend in shotguns seems to be long barrels, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but can make the gun seem unwieldy. I prefer medium to short length(remember to account for the action length), but that was the rage when I was growing up:).

    Check out the Remington 870 or (just for BB) the Mossberg 500, for serviceable pumps that don’t cost a fortune. I also like the 1100 semi’s. Those are all no-risk guns, in my opinion.

    Even the sky isn’t the limit with shotguns…

  88. Wayne,

    BG_Farmer gave good advice and reasons for the 12g. vs. 20g. I’ll add one thing. If you do decide to go with a 12g. make sure it accepts at least 3″ shells. Gives you a lot more options for loads. Lot of 2 3/4″ 12g.’s out there.


  89. B.B.,

    Thank you for suggesting the P1.

    FYI.. you asked about the P5, which is offered by PA and is an HW 70 with a 2x scope, for $390.

    Please tell me how you would scope the P1, both for a suggested red dot scope with mounts, and for 2x magnification. Thanx again.

    – Dr. G.

  90. Guys,
    The reason I'm interested in the combo gun, is Josh & Nate say they often see grouse, quail, turkey, geese and ducks as they tromp around looking for deer… would this over/under 357 mag/20ga. serve the purpose?…
    And would it be a collector also?


  91. Wayne,

    Well I agree with Kevin. I come from the 1960s, when Savage 24s sold for $100 or so. This one seems expensive, but if you look at the others, they’re up there. too.

    I’m sure shopping will turn up a lower price, but how much lower I couldn’t guess.

    I would like one, too, but sans paper.


  92. Dr.G.,

    The scope will more forward, not back, so the front sight becomes the scope stop. It will be dented.

    The top of the P1 is an 11mm dovetail.

    I would use a dot sight. A pistol scope would work as well. Just clamp to the top rail and butt to the front sight.


  93. Wayne,

    20g is a good gun for grouse and quail. Depending on how close you are, it’s good for duck. I’ve killed a lot of ducks jump shooting small ponds and sluices. I’ve also killed grouse with rocks. Dumbest bird that walks the planet. Typically a 20g is undersized for turkey and goose.

    Do your state game laws allow .357 for birds and/or deer?


  94. Wayne,

    If you looking for a nice all purpose shotgun an 870 Remington in 12 gauge is hard to beat. Comes in different finish levels also. “Express” will be the most affordable. Just make sure the length of pull fits you. The Mossberg 500’s all tend to rattle, there fine otherwise, but it annoys me.

    If you want just add a nice revolver in .357 you can wear in a holster at the same time and make your own combo. Gives you an excuse for an extra purchase.

    Dr. G.

    My P-1 was amazing off a rest. (Probably great without a rest, I’m just not much of a pistolero) They also have two power levels, which is nice. I believe they will take any .45 auto grip. The Daisy Avanti is ok, but very low power and no scope means.

  95. Wayne,

    Re: How to know about gun value

    Buy lots and lots of guns and pay too much. Seriously, it’s like anything else. No secrets. Get to know values by trading and shopping. Gun shows rarely have bargain prices listed on the tags but are a great place to haggle if you find a dealer that needs to sell a few guns and you haven’t picked his favorite to start haggling over. Just like a used car lot.

    I haven’t been into serious firearm buying for a long time. If that Savage 24 sells for anywhere close to $600.00 it’s proof I’m definitely in a time warp of gun values.


  96. Hi Matt,

    Re: How big is the crosman M1

    Tried searching for specifications on this gun and came up empty. Matt, what I would suggest is that you google “crosman M1”. There’s a lot of auction sites where this gun has sold and the pictures are still viewable. At least these pictures could give you an idea of the size.


  97. B.B., Kevin, Volvo & Dr.G & All..

    357 is allowed for deer… even with a handgun, Volvo.. in case while sneaking up on geese, one spooks a deer at 20 yards & it starts moving.. whip out the 357 revolver.. or like Josh, switch to a slug for the 12 ga.. which is more likely to be quick enough or get the job done?…
    or neither #1 buck is allow for deer also.. what da ya think?


  98. I also see that “no one may hunt with a shotgun that holds more than 3 shells”

    Don’t forget my whimpy body.. I’m fairly strong, but small… 150 lbs ..still the 870 remington?.. is a large one better on the body.. but then heavier to carry?


  99. If you have a good scope or one you know well, the click method works well. AS for my scopes, I like to keep the zeros where I am used to and use holdover/under with a mildot reticle. I use my ARs for hunting most of the time, but I do enjoy hitting paper and FT Targets for pactice and fun.

  100. Matt,
    If you Google search ” Crosman M1 carbine” the 3rd item shown is an article called Airgun Writer by some guy named Tom Gaylord. It’s about airguns that look like firearms and shows a picture with both a real M1 carbine and the Crosman. To my eye they look very similar if not identical in size. Jon

  101. Wayne,

    You need a variety of ammo for the variety of game you are describing that you may encounter during the same walk. Again, it depends on how close you can get to your deer, but I vote you carry slugs for deer. I don’t like a .357, #1 buck or 00 Buck for deer for that matter. I didn’t like tracking an animal for miles and by the time I found it the sun was going down and the hard work was beginning. I didn’t like the taste of an animal that had been run either.

    A heavier stocked gun (wood vs. synthetic) kicks less but it get’s very heavy by the end of the day if you’re walking/stalking. If you were only hunting grouse and quail you would be walking and a 20 gauge with synthetic stock would be ideal. But…you need firepower for deer, turkey and goose which are usually still hunted from a blind. If this was an automobile, you want a vehicle that’s fast off the line, has enough endurance to enter lemans and can haul a big load to the dump when you need it to.

    Whatever gun you choose to do all these things will be a compromise in one way or another. I still vote for a 12g., 3″ chamber, double barrel with a barrel selector or double triggers. If I was in grouse/quail country I’d put 7 1/2’s backed up by either 6’s or 5’s depending on how windy it was. When you get near water (ducks/geese) I’d put in heavier loads with bigger shot. Turkey loads depend on how you’re hunting. You don’t usually just walk up on a turkey. Keep slugs handy if you see a deer.


  102. Dr.G,there is a P-1 [freshly tuned}on American Airguns classifieds,that I believe is owned by Brad Troyer himself…thats his website.I consider him fully credible,for what it’s worth…asking price is 300$that is a bargain.all pachmeyer and hogue grips fit it if made for colt 1911.I have several sets.trigger is phenominal,but I don’t reccomend the low power setting for anything.high power gets just under 600fps w/7.9gr lead…accuracy is around .20 at 10M.that is published figure,I’m not that consistent,but the gun is… FrankB

  103. Kevin,

    That sounds a lot like what Josh and Nate do. Josh carries slugs for his 12ga plastic stock pump… He and Nate were saying a double barrel is probably best, because you will only get two shots at most anyway.. and they might need to be very quick!!..

    So, now… how not to get beat up by it.. which wood stock affordable, “collector” with 5 limbsavers on it:):).. in a double barrel??.. double trigger??.. is that so both can be cocked at once!!! my gosh!! that sounds like a sore arm that would last for weeks… Geese guys.. I’ve only played with the rem .410…
    with a very large butt patt!!


  104. Kevin,

    I get what you mean, I hope!!.. a slug in one barrel, and shot in the other… ahhhh, that's why some are like .410 & 12ga double barrel, right?.. a .410 slug is pretty deadly, isn't it.. how far out?

    whoooo.. got to go.. taking mom to dinner..

  105. Wayne,

    First, shoot Josh’s 12G pump — I bet it doesn’t hurt you, unless he does something mean like stoke it full of super-magnum butt-kickers. For upland, a side by side 20G is ideal (and good ones are expensive), but in a blind or still hunt (geese, ducks, turkey, and most deer), I would prefer a simple 12G pump or semi. Selective triggers on cheap (relatively) guns malfunction and people have been known to screw up double triggers, also, but its not something to stay up nights about: they all lived:).

  106. Dr G,

    Here’s updated info on the other P1 on Brads Classified. This is the one recently tuned by beeman. Steve’s phone number and email are in the message.

    kevin. it’s a 177 cal and yes it’s still available.i live near the beeman shop here in so cal.don the gun smith tuned it about 3 months ago. new mainspring and apex seals.i’ve used it a lot to kill small game where i live.rabbits and quail mostly.in fact i took it over to beeman to have chronie just the other day and it still shoots at 576 fps w/ beeman sillver bear pellets.
    you can call me if you want 714-907-5584 steve
    — On Sun, 2/8/09, Kevin Lentz wrote:

    From: Kevin Lentz Subject: your beeman P1 on Brads Classified
    To: “ifixbicycles@att.net”
    Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:34 AM


  107. Kevin,if drG declines on it,I’m right here in huntsville where Brad lives,and have an IZH 46M,which Brad might swap for. DR.G,if you’re not interested,please post here so I can acquire it…FrankB

  108. Never mind,thought the P1 was Brad’s due to his Email being listed,the gun is aparently in SoCal,not Huntsville.I thought I would get to talk to Brad,face to face! FrankB

  109. Wayne,

    Yes, you got part of what I tried to say but didn’t do a good job of saying.

    BG_Farmer is right keep it simple. A double barrel (either side by side or over and under) is simple. Pumps are great mechanisms but not as easy to keep clean and therefor less reliable. One of my favorite guns for goose hunting is an old, long barrel, winchester model 12, full choke. Semi-autos are popular but again not as easy to keep clean and therefor less reliable than a simple double barrel. However, as many have already said, a semi-auto action relieves some of the recoil (but I think your fear of recoil is blown out of proportion). No, a 12 gauge is not a plinking gun, but it’s not a .460 weatherby either.

    The most significant reason I suggested a double barrel is because of the different game you may encounter at a moments notice and you must change shells quickly and quietly. Changing shells quickly is easy (they’re shotgun shells not pellets) with any of the actions, but will be quicker with a double barrel. Quietly can’t happen with a pump or a semi-auto. Changing shells quietly can only occur in a double barrel.

    I did not mean a 12 gauge with a .410 gauge along side. I think that makes things more complicated than they need to be.

    Again, it would be easier to pick a gun for one of your many tasks rather than one to perform multiple tasks in one day but I stand by my recommendations for the reasons above.

    I was allowed to carry a shotgun in the field when I was 10 or eleven. The gun I was given (and still have) is an eastern arms (sears roebuck) 12 gauge, side by side with double triggers complimented by a hollow plastic stock. Yes, hollow plastic stock, no recoil pad. At 10 years old and 100 pounds? (don’t remember) it kicked like hell at the trap range but when a bird got up I never felt it. Never had a problem with double triggers and I’ve been using them on numerous guns for decades. Never had a problem with selectors for barrels. Most of my upland game shotguns are browning’s and my favorite citori probably has killed a semi-load of birds. Never had a problem. The selective trigger suggestion for you is not to load one barrel with shot and the other with a slug. It’s to allow you a lighter load/smaller shot for short range (bird gets up at your feet) or a higher brass/larger shot load if the bird flushes long or you only get a passing shot on a duck you happen to jump. All are scenerios you said were possible.

    If you buy a single trigger double barrel, you have a selector switch that is usually incorporated into the safety. Push the selector left for one barrel, right for the other barrel and forward to take the gun off safety. Double triggers eliminate the selector since you already have a trigger for each barrel. You just choose the one you want to fire. Just don’t pull them both at once which is impossible unless you intentionally put two fingers, not one, inside the trigger guard and pull both triggers using both fingers.

    Hope that provides some clarity on my previous brief answer. Remember, just one mans opinion.


  110. Matt,

    B.B. reviewed, edited and published an article on the IZH Mp513 that another airgunner wrote. Here’s the article along with many comments by people that also own an IZH Mp513:


    Glad you joined us here Matt!


  111. FrankB,

    Nahleans ain’t tat fur frum brad troyer. 🙂

    I don’t know if Dr G. is even interested in the P1. I think it’s a great deal for someone. I’ll let you two fight it out.


  112. Kevin, B.B. Volvo, Dr. G. & Mr. B & ALL!,

    Once again, thank you for the great explanations!
    Ok…now I've got to try Josh's 12ga.. and see what I find at my friends pawn shop in the way of a double barrels 12ga. that might be worth collecting too..

    What a great education I'm getting here.. thanks everyone!!


  113. Wayne,

    First, I think you are due a thank you from all of us by inquiring of our opinions. Nothing makes a man feel better. On the down side, I think few subjects carry more prejudice then “which gun is best.”

    That said, everyone has expressed very valid points. As Kevin stated, by arming yourself for multiple prey you will be making a compromise. The Savage rifle shotgun combos are probably the height of compromise.

    If you were purposely pursing deer, your Marlin in 30-30 or Winchester in .270 would probably be best. Any feathered friend that shows himself should just be given a pass.

    Along the same lines I think you would be most successful with a 12-gauge shotgun for upland game and water fowl. I know recoil is a concern, but many different strength loads are available. Think about it like your S410 that you can vary the power on, the only difference with the shotgun is you will vary the load that goes in it. You could get acquainted shooting hand thrown clays with the low brass field loads. Those are very mild. A 12 gauge gives you amazing flexibility.

    As far as a type, I still vote pump. Semi-autos can be picky about the load and are more difficult to clean. I have never experienced a failure with my 870, and doubt that you would.

    While legal in my neck of the woods, the .357 revolver is the least allowed for deer. My thoughts on carrying one with your shotgun were to use it only if you were to spot one at 20 –30 yards. But based on the open country that I think exists in your area that would probably never be the case. Once again, the deer get a pass.

    Anyone who has hunted in any quantity will tell you they always see the most deer while bird hunting and visa versa. That’s just part of the game.

  114. Re: Double barrel

    All depends on what you’re hunting. For quail hunting my Dad had wanted an over and under with Imp Cyc on top and Mod Choke on the bottom. Wide pattern for close shot, as birds move away then you take second shot with tighter pattern which spreads at distance. Idea is to have a tight enough pattern of shot to cover birds at both distances.

    Wild quail fly fast. The pen raised birds on hunting preserves can be taken with a badminton racket.


  115. Wow,

    I was looking at the Gunbroker shotguns.. $150 to $39,990.. HHHHMMM.. a little more research is in order… some beautiful pieces there.. I know I’ll start closer to $150 than the other for damn sure!!! and at my friends pawnshop!!


  116. Wayne,

    Your last post made me chuckle. A little ribbing is in order. Hope you had a fine dinner with your lovely wife and are in a good mood because here goes:


    I’m new to this bb gun/pellet gun thing and have noticed you’ve bought a lot of guns recently and have a lot of experience so I would like your advice. I’ve looked on this place called the yellow classified airgun site and there are airguns for sale $150.00 to over $2,000…even a USFT that won a big contest for more than that if you can believe it!! HMMMM…a little more research is in order. I know I’ll start closer to the $150.00 than the other for damn sure!!! Would appreciate your advice though Wayne.


    Newbie Airgunner

    and your, hopefully, still good friend

    kevin 🙂

  117. Wayne,
    Kevin’s forgotten more than I’ll ever know probably, but I still urge you to consider the 870 (express or wingmaster) magnum (3″ shell capability). Put the right barrel and choke on for what you want to do and drag it out into the field. It really can do everything, but I don’t think it is a compromise at all for waterfowling, which seems to be your primary focus right now.

    A double set up for waterfowling is, in my opinion, not going to be great for upland, unless you can change the barrels easily and cheaply (Kevin?). Later, I’m sure you’ll buy more shotguns, and then you can specialize:). If not, 870 is the one to have if you’re only having one.

    Also, I agree with Kevin and Volvo, If you’re going duck hunting, hunt ducks. If a deer jumps into the blind with you, kick it in the hind side until it leaves you alone. I could have shot at least 4 deer while working on fence last fall, but I was working on fence, not hunting deer:). Somehow it just seems unsporting to me to make an opportunistic kill like that, unless you really need to eat.

  118. Kevin,

    It makes my day to make you smile!!… with me.. oar at me.. ain’t no matter.. bro:)

    I think you should start in the middle price range..something like an AAs410.. never tried one, but heard great things from Volvo about them..

    unless you like “tradin” like me!!

    Your friend,

  119. Wayne & BG_Farmer,

    Can't argue with BG_Farmer. A Remington 870 is a great gun. You'd be hard pressed to find a better gun for waterfowl. Various grades, barrel lengths and choke options can accomodate any situation.

    My rationale in suggesting a double barrel (with interchangable chokes, suggested in my first response) is because Wayne needed a lot of flexibility for the variety of game. A double barrel that allows different chokes gives you twice the flexibility since both barrels can be choked differently. Propertly choked a 12 gauge double barrel can be a good upland game, good waterfowl and good turkey gun. I agree, throwing a deer into the mix is challenging.


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