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The day of the round ball

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on Tom/B.B.: This short blog was dictated by Tom when I visited him Thursday in the hospital. His eyes brightened, and he was excited about writing agin. I’ll spend all day Saturday and Sunday with him, because he wants to write some blogs for next week. Stay tuned!

Is round ball ammo ready to make a comeback? Pyramyd AIR already carries round balls in .177, .22 and .25 calibers. Are more to come?

For hundreds of years, the round ball was the only bullet that existed. Then, in the 1800s (or maybe slightly earlier), conicals were discovered. They delivered such greater range to the arms that used them that the round ball became obsolete. Of course, mixed in with all of this is the “mysterious” effect of rifling, which has to be calculated for accuracy at different ranges. But, we’re getting off the track. Today’s discussion is about the round ball.

Never before have we had such a huge selection of .25 caliber pellets. Pretty soon, there will be one more–the .25 caliber Crosman Premier (which I’ll be testing for you).

Airguns are being used for far more than ever before. Even smallbores, such as .177 and .20 calibers are being used for hunting. And, 2010 is clearly the re-emergence of .25 caliber. In all of this, will we see a similar re-emergence of round balls in place of pellets?

Recently, H&N shipped a sample package of 9mm round balls for Pyramyd AIR to test…and they’ve tested very well, so far. Will they change the way of the smallish big bore in the same way diabolos changed the way of pellets for smallbore airguns starting in the early 1900s?

I don’t have answers for any of this, yet, but I can see that the day of the round ball airgun has returned.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

187 thoughts on “The day of the round ball”

  1. God morning B.B.,

    You know, I'll bet your eyes realling brighten when you though about leaving this demented group of air gun afficandos with the topic of round balls to ponder about for the weekend.

    We're all glad that you're doing so much better!

    Mr B.

  2. Edith, its really great to read of Tom's progress. Thank You (Edith)very much for continuing diligently with the blog during this trial. Its a fine example of being a helpmeet to your husband.

  3. B.B.

    It's great that you're back! Edith, thank you for your care for Tom!

    Well, considering pellet shapes – I guess ball is best when it comes to energy delivered, but it's worst when it comes to stabilizing.
    I shot several dosens of balls from all of my springers and CO2 – results were quite disappointing in terms of precision, albeit more than expected in terms of delivered energy. Hunting only bullet?
    I guess "balls" should be elongated, more egg-shaped to get better results, as its center of gravity will be away from its center of pressure.

    Some time ago me and Dad (he's an aircraft engine designer by his education) we tried to "compute" optimal heavy high-power pellet shape using some professional aerodynamics software.
    It turned out to be a cylnder somewhat 1.7-2.1 caliber in length, with narrow "skirts" on each end – looks just like "fat" spool. Full-cylinder shape meant too much friction inside the barrel.
    On its front end – a short flat-ended "needle" protruding somewhat 0.5-0.7 caliber forward.

    It looked almost like APFSDS without rear end with fins.
    It computed to be optimal for high subsonic and low supersonic speeds with surprisingly low drag (AFAIR due to that flat needle, that somehow destabilized air and created a sort of "grease") and very good stability. It also had enough mass (and KE to deliver).

    However if it was to be produced – I guess one needed to enhance presision of production tenfold because of its difficult shape and soft material.

    I guess JSB Heavies in .177 are closest factory-made pellets by shape to that "fat spool" pellet.


  4. Tom, glad to see you're feeling better.

    I've always wondered about the potential accuracy of round balls in smoothbore or slow-twist airguns. They can work quite well in muzzleloaders, and airguns may offer some additional adventages due to both lack of fouling, and to the reduction in deformation caused by loading and firing stresses.

    Unlike steel BBs, lead balls become slightly cylindrical when pushed through the barrel. Maybe the egg-shaped ball suggested above would prove to be ideal.

    Who knows? Some 9mm precision roundballs and a slow-twist barrel might be the next big thing…

  5. Edith and Tom

    It's been said here in many ways but, I must re-state the obvious.

    1) The best decision of Tom's life must be his marriage to Edith. Nurse, Blogger, hand-holder to airgun "nuts" like us. She does it all.

    2) Tom… continue to get well and thanks for all you do, even during your illness!

    Brian in Idaho

  6. blowgunner62,

    The sample .25-caliber Crosman Premiers arrived just a couple days after B.B. went to the hospital. If I were a decent rifle shot, I would load & shoot them to get things moving on that.


  7. Now round balls. I'll inlet a patch box or put a grease hole onto a Dragonslayer if anybody needs it:).

    Unpatched round balls are presumed to be inaccurate, but they seem to stick around. I wonder if the relatively slower expansion of gas and the twist rate in air rifles does help some. The twist rate in an air rifle would probably be much too fast for round balls in black powder rifles, but it might be right for lower velocities.

    I still don't understand how roundballs in an air rifle can achieve a good seal, i.e., I don't believe there is enough power to push an unpatched ball that is fully scribed, and the ball isn't obturated (sp?). Again, I can only guess that at the lower pressures, the leakage is less critical.

    BB has said that the big bore fans experimented with roundballs in the early days and had pretty abysmal results. I would be interested in hearing from more people who have tried round balls in their air rifles.

  8. Duskwight,
    Herb did some research on spool rockets and suggested that as a possible choice for pellets, also, I believe. It sounds like you are saying that that shape is ideal for the transonic region (below and above speed of sound), which wreaks havoc on most projectiles. I've been fascinated lately by the idea of a .25 caliber PCP for short range benchrest, so I wonder if that pellet shape isn't worth some serious consideration.

  9. Tom,

    How was the jello? yummmm

    It's soooo greaat to have you back with us!
    Please don't push yourself, trying to catch up or get ready for something.

    Walking, as soon as the doc says it's safe, is a good way to build yourself back up… longer and longer walks…

    And maybe, somehow, someway, you could get some high quality, healthy food delivered:-)

    Not to say the hospital doesn't have the best, most healthy and most tasty food… but.. jello?

    I know easy to digest.. ok.. what's next macaroni and cheese?

    Steamed veggies & rice are also easy to digest…

    Sorry, I'm feeling a little sarcastic this morning about hospitals..


    I've only tried the beeman .177 cal, and they were terrible for accuracy. It seems the projectile needs a skirt to make the seal and fit into the rifling.

    The CPH, JSB and Baracuda dome shape are hard to beat. These are the hope for .25 cal and larger in my mind..

    Just keep them around 900fps and all will be fine.

    Wacky Wayne, "MD" Ashland Air Rifle Range

  10. Update on Diana Model 3 Query

    On April 01, 2010 11:59 AM I asked the following:

    "On page 5 of the new 120th anniversary Diana product catalogue for 2010 there is a picture of a beautiful rifle they call their Model 3, from 1903.

    But in the 7th edition of the Blue Book of Air Guns it says that the Model 3 was only made from 1913 onwards, and the Model 3 that is pictured there looks nothing like the one in the Diana cat.

    Is the information in the Blue Book incomplete or incorrect for this model?"

    I also asked Dr. Robert Beeman, co-author of the BBA, and he agreed to my sharing his very interesting reply with you:

    FROM DR. ROBERT BEEMAN in an email to AlanL:

    "Hi – have done a lot of checking around and it seems that we should stand by the Blue Book of Airguns 7 as shown. The illustration shown in the Diana flyer appears to be in error. Very few folks there know anything about their old specimens – esp. since the "collection" got torn up and scattered by extremely heavy allied bombing of Rastatt near end of WW2. Someone evidently recently found an old air rifle in Dianawerk stuff, marked Model 3 and assumed that it was a Dianawerk. Actually it appears to be the model 3 shown on page 281 as a Gaggenau Model 3 – marked with Model 3 number and prob. only the crossed pistol logo of Gaggenau. The Diana ad guys did not recognize it as the logo of a company that made airguns to sell under the Gaggenau name and by Diana and most any other name that some buyer wanted. It may have had the Diana name associated with it on a hangtag or on the box – possibly but very likely not stamped into the gun metal. Gaggenau was THE big airgun company around the turn of the century; Dianawerk would have been a minor customer. Guns like this were made by a wide variety of makers – and generally referred to as Gem airguns. As noted on page 281 these were even made to fire firearm cartridges and/or airgun darts/slugs. Millions of these were made!

    Dianawerk's 1903 date is also suspect – the Models 1 and 2 had their start about 1910-11. The MGR "First Model" preceded them in 1901-04/05.

    The Diana Model 3 shown in BBA7 is factory stamped as model 3 AND
    Dianawerk. Of course, Dianawerk makes following models by number very difficult as they made many different guns under the SAME model numbers – as noted in BBA. The only person at Dianawerk who I would believe concerning early Dianawerk guns would be their very long term employee – Kurt Pottiez – he was the one that gave us the correct pic of first Model 2 Dianawerk – shown in BBA6 – but dropped out of BBA7 because Blue Book was behind on their printing schedule – so they omitted sending the last proof copies to me before running the entire series on the printing presses. See pg. 208 in BBA6 – hopefully BBP will get this back to right via my editing of BBA8. Kurt also alerted me to the enigmatic Model 8 air pistol!! -robert beeman"


  11. Ok, now Tom's really showing improvement if he's chomping at the writers' bit! Bring it on!

    It would ne so great if round balls could be made to work as well as the diabolo shape. If nothing else, they would be such a breeze to load. No more having the thing flip over and loading backwards and having to flip it back. The answer for all us who suffer from fat-finger syndrome.


  12. More from Dr. Beeman on the Diana Model 3 Inquiry:

    Slinging Lead suggested that I also ask on the Vintage forum, which I did, and I got several answers, all assuming the Dianawerk catalogue was right (because it came straight from the factory), and that the Blue Book of Airguns (BBA) was wrong (because it gets its information second-hand).

    I told Dr. Beeman what the consensus of the blog responses was, and the good doctor took exception to that, and wanted me to share his thoughts with you. Here they are:

    "Interesting about the all-knowing blogs. Tosh and I have had the most unusual opportunity to see the growing airgun industry up close and personal. We were guests right in the Weihrauch, Feinwerkbau, H&N, Dianawerk offices and factory – and homes – many times over the decades. We dined and traveled around with them. Most didn't even have
    collections. The Dianawerk" collection" – post-bombing, was pitiful.
    And whenever we pressed the staff for historical info – they always
    gave us the "geez- I don't know" approach – The Dianawerk President had almost no historical knowledge. Most all of the Mayer "boys" didn't come home from WW2 – their places were taken, via a very interesting post-WW2 tradition: by the widows of the departed and by their best, surviving friends as selected for the jobs by those widows. (The Grammelspachers simply vanished early on.) The loss of manpower and family lines in WW2 was just staggering – we have almost NO comprehension of such losses here. Our losses in WW2 and Vietnam couldn't begin to compare – and, of course, the losses in the so- called wars since then, while tragic for every individual and every involved family, were simply nothing compared to the WW2 losses on both sides. We, and the then clearly defined enemy, lost more lives in hours of WW2 than were lost in years in the Mid-East!

    When I waited for so many hours in so many German town squares, for
    Tosh to do her shopping, I could see that most men of the WW2 vintage simply weren't there – most who were there were only partly there – missing legs, arms, shoulders, part of their faces, etc.. We just don't understand such losses! The older men who did survive to take back the reins of their companies – were all the more intelligent, able men – the former officers who were formerly wearing swastikas and even skull & crossbones and double-lightning bolt insignias only a few years earlier. Dianawerk's men were hit especially hard and deeply.

    That and the simple loss of almost all early specimens gives us a
    clear idea why they don't, can't, know details of their own company's
    history. Compare tracking company history under those situations with say Winchester or Colt history!! Even collections that survived the bombings did not survive the looting by commanding allied officers. (I understand that the original Walther factory collection of prototypes and serial number one specimens is locked in a vault in the deep south
    of the USA. The present Walter collection is worn stuff that they have managed to scrabble from sales and auctions.) Yes, you can and should post this too.

    robert beeman"


  13. BG_Farmer

    Well, I cannot say it _IS_ ideal but the software decided it was as good as it could be in given circumstances (weight, size, speed). Actually that software was for some bigger objects, like airplanes 🙂
    And I don't know the way it'll behave when passing through sound barrier down to subsonic (I guess that's the most difficult part of its flight)- we didn't compute it, only fixed speeds, as well as we didn't compute it in flight rotating.


  14. AlanL

    Thank you for those emails from Dr. Beeman. You gotta love this hobby when the Titans (Dr. Beeman, BB) take the time to write such lengthy replies to us lowly scrubs.

    On the subject of the Doctor's second reply, I recently suggested a book to Matt61, by James Bradley. It is basically an overview of the battle for Iwo Jima (sulfur island), with emphasis on the men in the famous photo of the raising of the flag on the peak of Mt. Suribachi. I cant remember the number of US casualties over just over a month of fighting, but at the time I read the book, it was more than had been killed in years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, combined. About 20,000 Japanese soldiers were killed. This is one battle, on one very tiny island. The sacrifices made at that time in history are staggering to contemplate.

    Incidentally, the photo by Joe Rosenthal I mentioned, is likely the most reproduced photograph in the world. Also it depicts the SECOND raising of the American Flag on the summit of Mt. Suribachi.

    There is alot of chatter about this second flag raising being a staged event, done for the war photogs. "Why do you need 5 strong Marines in the midst of a battle to raise a simple flag?"

    An American commander, located in a ship offshore, said of the first flag that it was much too small, and he wanted all the Japanese soldiers on the island to be able to see it.

    Also the flag pole weighed several hundred pounds.

  15. Just got some info from Josh, owner of Pyramyd AIR, on the performance of the H&N round ball being tested (9.20mm, 71.1 grains):

    Career Ultra:
    Shot 1: 905 fps
    Shot 2: 895 fps
    Shot 3: 888 fps
    Shot 4: 871 fps
    Shot 5: 860 fps
    Shot 11: 782 fps

    5/8" 5-shot group @ 30 ft
    Career Fire 202S:
    Shot 1: 910 fps
    Shot 2: 872 fps
    Shot 3: 803 fps
    Shot 4: 789 fps
    Shot 5: 767 fps
    Shot 11: 732 fps

    1/2" 5-shot group @ 30 ft


  16. Inherent roundball problems….

    Round balls are never truly round.

    They have only one narrow bearing surface.

    It is hard to seat them without having them roll..spoiling the bearing surface.

    It is hard to shoot them without having them try to roll in the rifling….spoiling the bearing surface.

    The pressure curve is niether steep enough or strong enough to cause "upset". The pressure curve in a muzzle loader is sufficient to cause enough upset to partly compensate for bearing surface damage caused by rolling the ball when loading.

    Completely sealing the bore is not an issue..many airguns do not completely seal the bore with pellets either.


  17. Duskwight,

    The shape that you and your Father calculated sounds similar to one that Tom has mentioned early big bore shooters using in their smooth-bore guns. I believe that there are some pictures on the blog, but the only one I found was on this post about Big Bore Airguns: Think You've Seen it All?. The last picture shows some .45 caliber lead spools.



  18. TwoTalon,
    I think a patch and proper rifling rate (probably faster twist than BP for RB) would help the big bores just like ML'ers, but that's just my opinion.

    BB said they had serious trouble hitting 4" plate at 40 yards from a bench, or something miserable like that, when they shot round balls. I see Bobby Nations already found and linked that article (Ballistic Pendulum).

  19. Glad your feeling better Tom, Does anybody know of a way to mount a rear peep sight to an old Sheridan or Benjamin so that you can use the exsiting front sight? Is there a sight that can use the 2 screws on the port side of the lever? Mike from Washington State.

  20. Mike, I believe that the Williams Crosman 64 peep will do that.


    I may be wrong. I'm not the most experianced airgunner.

  21. AlanL,

    Thanks for going through the trouble of connecting with Dr. Beeman and sharing his comments. Wonderful insight and story.

    That story makes airgun collecting all the more exciting… and gives insight to why Dr. Beeman might have gathered such a wide and complete collection.

    I'm glad to hear he is still active in the airgun world and cares enough to comment to us.

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  22. Hi Edith and BB.
    It's not so much about the ball ammo but the manufacturer.
    H&N make a 22cal pellet called the 'Coppa-point'.
    It is described as
    'copper plated,smooth waisted.Diabolo-Extra hard'
    I looked on the pellet inventory under H&N and only saw .177 copper Domeheads.
    I have fired the Coppa-points from both springers and my Logun S16 pre-charge and they are great in every department it seems.
    If you haven't already tried them I do recomend you give them a go.
    Best wishes,

  23. I recently noticed the larger selection of ammo for .25 caliber air rifles. Benjamin just came out with the Marauder in .25 caliber and the Crosman Premier domed for it is coming out at the end of April. I'll have to wait for next year's tax return to get one though. Oh well.


  24. can anyone respond to this and just say got it or something. I just did a lot of security updates. Want to make sure I'm still connecting with this blog properly. Thanks.

  25. derrick38
    haha, thanks for responding was having problems with some other sites with master logins.

    You know I don't know much about airgunning. This talk about the round balls or elliptical shape had me wondering. Sometimes I shoot RWS Hypers. Are they not basically an elliptical pellet
    with a plastic skirt?

  26. AJVenom,

    That is a great idea. In his many years of airgun collecting, Dr. Beeman must have some great stories to tell. Kevin, Volvo, I believe his collection surpasses your miserable collections put together, and even Wacky Wayne's, for crying out loud [rikib: take note: bitter, biting, vitriolic sarcasm just committed] so who better to tell us about some airgun collecting adventures than him– such a horrible, nefarious, reprehensible, wasteful, sinful pursuit– wouldn't you agree?

    I'm up to eight and counting! :-))


  27. Filling in some of the details…

    RE: Coppa-point pellet

    Here is a good picture I found…


    another at:Air Rifle Pellet Database

    The Air Rifle Pellet Database also has a lot of nice pictures of other pellets. A few cross sections as well but not many.
    _ _ _ _ _

    APFSDS is "armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot"

    see: Kinetic Energy Penetrator

    – – – –
    Spool rockets – Was really curious about diameter of spool compared to overall diameter of flange. Also how long pellet was compared to the distance between the flanges. It seemed obvious that the "flanges" at ends of the spool provided maximum stability for positioning the pellet in the barrel with minimum friction.

    Spool rockets had a definite stability in comparing length and diameter of the spool plates. Some of the spool rockets also had a conical "aft" section making the spool rocket very much like a flat-head diabolo pellet.

    Flathead pellets seem to have good accuracy, but a poor BC compared to round head pellets.

    The notion of a "plain" shaft like or needle protrusion from the center seems interesting. BB has noted that in general pointed pellets don't have as good accuracy as round nose pellets. The assumption seems to be that if the point is off-center at all (and they all are off center by at least some small amount…), then the spinning of the pellet introduces aerodynamic problems (eg precession…).

    Some of the big bore pellets, look very "spoolish" like.

    – – – – – –
    The other part about spool rockets was wondering about if some of the rocket modeling software could be used a poor man's way to model pellets and do aerodynamic analysis. Seems to be too much of a stretch from what I could determine.

    – – – – – –


  28. AlanL,

    Great job contacting Dr. Beeman and posting his response(s). For all the ribbing he gets on other forums in my humble opinion he deserves an enormous amount of respect for the significant contribution he's made to airgunning in the USA.

    The jealous wannabe businessmen are quick to attack the profits he made but overlook the impact he has made on our hobby.


  29. DaveUK,

    Thanks for all your input. I've read your comments with great enthusiasm. Really appreciate your insight into a passion that we obviously share.


  30. Volvo,

    Apparently we're angry at one another from what I've been reading?

    Perhaps we should pick a very public location, with papparazi in tow, to kiss and make up?

    Thanks again for the 23.

    I'd be interested in your take on the legacy SE ("not my cup of tea"). I was tempted but the stock was a turnoff. Your take?


  31. Mr. & Mrs. Gaylord (and everyone else that needs a smile),

    Re: Levity

    I had one of those "awakenings" today and thought I would share my new awareness.

    I used to be confused.

    I became confused when I heard the word "Service" used with these agencies:

    Internal Revenue 'Service'
    U.S. Postal 'Service'
    Telephone 'Service'
    Cable TV 'Service'
    Civil 'Service'
    State, City, County & Public 'Service'
    Customer 'Service'

    This is not what I thought 'Service' meant.

    But today, I overheard two farmers talking, and one of them said he had hired a bull to 'Service' a few cows.

    BAM!!! It all came into focus. An awakening! Now I understand what all those agencies are doing to us.


  32. Continuing on pellets…

    BG_Farmer asked question about pellet penetration on blog article Shrine built for feinwerkbau-124: Part 2 at:
    March 06, 2010 2:57 PM,

    Like all good questions the answer is "It depends…" 😉

    First RWS Superdomes are a pure lead pellet whereas the Crosman pellets have antimony to harden the lead.

    Second head-shape is obviously important.

    Third there are two somewhat competing effects. The momentum (mass * Velocity) of pellet determines how much "knock-down" power a pellet has. Think of a ballistic pendulum. It is momentum not kinetic energy that is preserved. The "excess" kinetic energy that pellet contains goes to heat and "penetration."

    In my opinion the Neutrogena tests are very "flashy" but overstate the expansion that will be observed with a pellet. It isn't just about how fast you shoot the pellet. It has a lot to do with how fast the pellet decelerates. Fast deceleration means more expansion of the pellet. Even a relatively slow pellet melts into a lead blob if shot into a brick wall. So a Neutrogena bar of soap induces more expansion than ballistic gelatin. Of course ballistic gelatin is somewhat delicate, and must actually be calibrated for the best results.

    I was also really curious about using a clear wax of some kind that would be stable, yet which could be remelted.

    I did use some ordinary paraffin wax like would be used for sealing home-made jelly. Although just translucent, it does show a nice large shockwave pattern with back lighting. Both Neutrogena and ballistic gelatin seem to flow around the pellet and you really can't seen any of the "shock" damage.


    I can't stand it. Drag out the equations!!!!!

    Conservation of momentum

    m1*v1 = m2*v2

    where m1 and m2 are masses and v1 and v2 are velocities

    so let's have a ballistic pendulum that weighs 999*m1. Then:
    m2 = m1 + 999m1 = 1000m1

    and v2 = 1/1000*v1

    so if

    KE1 = (1/2)*m1*v1^2


    KE2 = (1/2)*M2*v2^2


    KE2 = 1/1000*KE1

    So the ballistic pendulum doesn't have near as much kinetic energy as the pellet.

  33. Kevin,

    Thanks, that's a funny one.. I think.

    Maybe it's too true to be funny.

    Getting ready for FT season..

    USFT#6 is a very, accurate rifle.
    period.. it's shooting weighed CPH 10.5 like a dream at 19.5 ft lbs.

    I guess I'm gonna give up on 12fpe for this years Field target games, and let USFT#44 just sit.

    I'm so comfortable wrapped around #6, and 20fpe is so easy compared to 12fpe. I've got the holdover working real good now… so yeah.. I don't have to go to clicking… still no harness, but I'm moving into 20fpe open class this year.

    Were having a fun shoot tomorrow, I'll let you know the results.

    Then next week the 17th and 18th I'm going down to shoot at LDs in S. Calif. I haven't been to his place yet, but the word is, it's not to be missed. I shot my worst match of my short history last November at the Cal state championship.. So, I'm hoping to do a little better this time.

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  34. DaveUK,

    I have shot the .22 Coppa Point pellets in my HW77 (non-K) and Katana and they performed better than most other pointed pellets. At 25 yards both rifles grouped around a half-inch c-t-c for five shots. I also like they way they look!

    They are not imported into the USA as far as I know but there is a Canadian seller on a popular auction site that stocks them.

    Paul in Liberty County

  35. Just finished watching "Criminal Minds", good quote at end of show. Supposedly from Abraham Lincoln, "It is not the number of years in your life, but the life in your years." Sounds good to me when I think back on many wasted years.

  36. Well, it is 3am local time, so probably only me and rikiB awake at this point, but I thought I would go ahead and mention that there are 2 new videos up on PA's sight from Paul Capello. One is for the Colt Defender BB pistol, the other for the Air Venturi Bronco– the design of which was influenced by some guy named Tom Gaylord.

    I was eagerly watching the Bronco video when I realized that even with the Crosman Premier 7.9gr pellets (by far the best in this rifle in my experience) that Paul's groups at 10m were worse than some of mine! I was godsmacked, dismayed and crestfallen.

    Then I realized that the problem was that with a breakbarrel, shooting technique is especially important for accuracy and you must pay close attention.

    Well, Paul was co-hosting the episode with the lovely and talented Crystal Ackley (hubba hubba) who was sitting just a few feet from Paul. Obviously, his head was not in the game. Keep your eyes in your head Paul, you are a married man.

    He would probably claim the contrary, but usually Paul is quite the marksman. I have seen video of him nailing the center of a co2 cartridge, and hitting a fly that was unfortunate enough to land on a target in an American Airgunner episode.

  37. rikib…..we win …we lose, but most importantly……we live

    It's never too late to shoot airguns and that should make anyone happy!!!!!

    I'm sure glad Tom's getting better….give him an airgun to shoot and he'll be fine.

    Alan…thanks for posting your emails with Dr. Beeman.

    I've took a day off for my wife's birthday. It's been a while since I've had a little time to relax….and I recommend it to everyone.

  38. Hey SL!!!!

    you had me at bronco…but (hubba hubba) Crystal is a little easier on the eyes than Tom. Sorry Tom.

    I would like to say thanks to Paul for the second pellet selection he used. Makes the rest of us feel better about our own groups. Magic pellet oh magic pellet, wherefore art thou?

    "here I am…and I've been discontinued…."

  39. rikib:
    If you and your good lady wife are thinking of moving to Wales be aware that property prices in the UK are very vunerable although they went up by 10% over the last year the word is that they could tumble by 40% which I think is quite possible.
    So far the workforce has largely been protected from unemployment by high government borrowing and printing money and that cannot go on forever.
    We could see even higher unemployment,high interest rates to pay the debt and thus a fall in House prices.
    Keep your powder dry and you could get a bargain.
    If I was you though,stay in the USA buddy things may get mighty grim in the UK.

    They also feel good in the hand.
    It must be the copper coating.
    Not the usual dry pencil lead feeling that a lot of pellets have.
    I myself get them from an army surplace guy who runs a stall on our local outdoor market.
    Other than that Ive not seen them in the few Gunshops in my area.

    Thank you sir.I am a gun enthusiast who is by law not allowed to own a gun.
    No wonder I've gone nuts 🙂

  40. Edith,

    I did ask you to tell Tom to get rest, but I guess I understand.

    It must be really tough to stay away from stuff you love most.

    I am touring and am yearning to get home soon and shoot my airguns.


  41. Folks,

    this July I will be going with my family and father in law to Germany to visit the town he grew up in – and left a day or two before Hitler closed the borders (November 1939). The town is from 1.5 to 2.5 hrs from the FWB and Weihrauch factories so perhaps I'll get a chance to visit, if they have tours for visitors. In looking at the Wiehrauch website, which is poor compared to FWB's, my father-in-law translated what Wiehrauch meant in English and I thought the rest of you would like this. It means "Holy Smoke" or "ceremonial smoke".

    Edith, hows' BB doing?

    Fred PRoNJ

  42. DaveUK/rikiB

    Reading the exchange y'all had the other night, it reminded me of something interesting from my own family.

    My Grandmother and Grandfather on my Dad's side were both from Scotland. They both lived in tiny towns seperated by a river and a about 25 miles distance.

    When they did finally meet, it was thousands of miles away, in a crazy place called America! Weird. I loved their accents. I wish I could hear them now.

  43. Fred,

    Right now, he's napping. When I got here at 9 am, he'd already showered and was sitting in a chair. He's off all IVs, sedatives, painkillers, antibiotics, etc. He's still on oxygen, though.

    Before lunch, he put on his robe and we walked out the door and around the hallway a little bit.

    I have Monday's blog and will get Tuesday's blog from him this afternoon. I hope to extract 2 more blogs from him on Sunday 🙂

    I'm not the evil taskmaster that I might seem. However, I know what makes him happy…and it's not sitting around the hospital pontificating about his situation. He's a doer. Dictating or writing blogs are what he wants to do.


  44. Guys,

    I heard from somebody once that the maximum range of an airgun pellet is giving an inclination some 20+ degrees to the barrel to compensate the drop of the pellet. According to something I had heard somewhere, I remember that was said that the maximum range of a projectile was obtained by giving an inclination of 45 degrees.

    My question is, how could I calculate this on airguns? By using the chairgun software?

    Any help is welcome 🙂


  45. Anthony,

    I'm no physicist, but I'm sure Herb (who is) and Jane (who's an ex-NASA rocket scientist) will weigh in if I'm wrong. The answer is, to achieve maximum distance downrange, 45 degrees of elevation, for any projectile fired from any source.


  46. FRED PRoNJ,

    Happy trails. Sounds like it will be quite an experience. I hear they serve beer in very large containers over there.

    Take some pictures and keep us updated. Also wear a trench coat with lots of pockets.


    Obviously all us fans are concerned, and feel he should take it easy. However, this might be the worst thing for him. It is anguish for me to sit still in a chair for 2 hours (unless the Military Channel is on) I can't imagine the frustration of being confined to a hospital bed for days at a time.

    Maybe you could smuggle Roy, Dale, and Punky in to see Tom. I bet that would really make his eyes brighten!

    Continued prayers coming from Powder Springs.

  47. Slinging Lead,

    Can't bring in the cats, but I have about 100 images of them on my laptop as my screensaver. At least Tom can see them that way 🙂


  48. Anthony,

    RE: Maximum range

    45 degrees is about right. The problem is in the real world is that the ballistic coefficient isn't a constant but depends on the pellet's velocity. I'd also speculate that as the pellet slows that it would start to precess which would give it an even smaller BC.

    All in all, ChairGun would allow you some rough calculations. I'd also think though that the terminal velocity would be overstated.

    I wouldn't want to get hit with birdshot from a shotgun at 75 feet, but I've been in many a dove field and had shot drop on me. One down the collar is hot and does get you attention.


  49. Slinging Lead:
    You know I have only been to Scotland once in my life and that was for a few days working.
    I have met and worked with hundreds of Scots though in my time and their accents are very diverse.
    The lilting tones of folk from the Highlands.
    The strong but precise accent from the Edinburgh region.
    My favourite though is from Glasgow.
    Add the Glaswegians humour to their accent and you have a great combination.
    If you check on 'youtube'I'm sure someone would have put up episodes from the comedy show 'Rab C Nessbit'.
    I have a bit of trouble myself sometimes understanding the accents, but it will give you a flavour of Glasgow accents and how Glaswegians can poke fun at themselves.
    All the best,

  50. AlanL, I'm just a lowly engineer – but that 45 deg. barrel inclination only works in the absence of air resistance. I believe that when fired in an atmosphere, you'd find that the barrel has to be a bit closer to horizontal for maximum range.

    The reason for this is that the effect of air resistance varies with velocity. Over the course of the flight path, the average of the horizontal component of the velocity is greater than that of the vertical component. When you fire at 45 deg, the horizontal and vertical velocity vectors are equal at the start, but gravity starts sucking down the vertical velocity pretty quickly. That's why the average of the vertical velocity is lower.

    So when you factor in air resistance, the effect in the X direction is more severe than that in the Y direction… so you have to 'give' the pellet more velocity in the 'X' direction to make up for it. Which means aiming the barrel at less than 45 deg.

  51. Vince,

    I was very disappointed when the prez cancelled the manned moon program recently. I had hoped that since the golfers had had their chance at a t-shot on the moon's surface, that us airgunners would get our chance next. Of course, a springer wouldn't work too well up there, would it! So an S-410 maybe.

    Now what would the right angle be up on the ole moon, huh?

    I think you could get some pretty nice groups at 200 yards!


  52. DaveUK
    I remember when I was last in Wales I wondered how people could afford it. I lived in little town of St. David's. near St. Brides Bay. It was so small pretty much everyone in town knew each other by name. At that time my then girlfriend and I were letting (renting) a house, it was on the market for 140,000 pounds. It was only 3 bedrooms and one bathroom. For those here who may not know it a lot of bedrooms there do not include closets. The 3 bedrooms might equal a master bedroom with walkin closet. The garden (yard) would fit in my family room here. I can't imagine what that place would be going for on the market now. But it was so nice to just walk down to the pub, have some fish & chips with a good pint. Walk home with your mates totally pissed (drunk) and not worry about getting messed with, not even by the constable usually.

  53. Vince
    That answer seems very accurate and I think I can understand it, but maybe not. If you are shooting at something below your horizontal (LOS)will you have increased distance. Or would this be basically a floater (for lack of a better term) with no impact force after a given distance

  54. rikib:
    This will make your eyes water mate.
    Petrol has just gone up to £6 a gallon which is roughly $8 in real money.
    Oil prices are on the rise, so fuel in the UK can only go up even more.
    How do people here afford to live?
    Unless already established with a home owned outright and a very good income via Wage/pension.
    Or on welfare with subsidised rents and houses.
    Debt and a lot of it.
    Personal debt(not the national debt)in the UK is £1.5 trillion.
    The national debt is about the same.
    That is why I would be cautious about coming here rikib.
    Britain is in for big pain after this current election.

  55. Herb,
    Thanks for the analysis & equations on penetration. I don't know whether you saw the subsequent tests I did and conclusions I postulated — they are hidden on the 200+ comments pages, and I couldn't even figure out where to find when I went back to see what I had asked:).

    Basically, I redid the test with Copperhead Wadcuters and found that they too substantially out-penetrated the CPH's, which, though not a perfect test, eliminated to some degree considerations of hardness and point type (a wadcutter spreads the force over an even larger area than the CPH). (Velocity/frontal_area) is king in my book for predicting penetration, at least in semi-rigid membranes, although it may not be what is most effective in all situations.

    By the way, I don't remember using Superdomes, but CPL's versus CPH would be the best test; I simply don't have any CPL's:).

  56. DaveUK
    I know about some of the home owned outright. My Oxford lass wife calls her mum every week. Her mum owns her flat and I think two others in the 18 flat complex. Owning the other two seems to be costing her more than it is worth because tenants are always complaining about something and mum is responsible, so the counsel says.

    I know your petrol is a lot higher than here, but I also remember that vehicles got so much better mileage. Do they still charge the TV tax?

  57. Herb,
    One more thing. I'm working from memory here, but I think the points, which are apparently the same weight and material as the wadcutters, did in fact out-penetrate both the wadcutters and the heavy domes, which makes sense just from the perspective of distribution of force.

  58. Kevin,
    I did enjoy the service joke, but I've often thought that was the primary meaning in the modern world:). Perspective I guess, from living with a jack ass and several bulls over the years.

  59. DaveUK
    Hopefully things will work out better after the general election.
    Don't know if you know it but here in some states you still get screwed with VAT (they call it ad volorem tax) but it is value added tax. Every year you pay taxes on your personal property ie. cars, motorcycles, boats. You never really own them because they are taxed every year based on what the state determines their value to be.

  60. I had asked earlier, may have been yesterday. The discussion was about pellet shapes, balls, and elliptical. What I had asked was if the pellet in RWS Hypers is an elliptical mounted in a plastic skirt. Never received any responses? Was also wondering what makes them or allows them to be considered Hyper-velocity?

  61. Hyper velocity pellets are pellets that weigh substantially less than average lead pellets.
    Today I was shooting through a cinderblock with .457 roundballs at 50 yards.I found them to be quite accurate.I was putting shot 2 about 3/4" left of shot 1!The Quackenbush .457 is scary fun!

  62. rikib:
    We have VAT on what are classed as luxury items.
    Electricity and gas as well as petrol and diesel and…
    In fact it is easier to say what we dont pay VAT on.
    Food and kids clothes,that's about it I think.
    We pay a one off VAT of 17.5% at time of purchase but not an ongoing annual amount.(Thank the lord)
    The TV licence fee(Tax)is now a con but you can be fined or imprisoned for not paying it.
    The BBC used to be affectionatly known as 'The Beeb' but now a lot of us call it 'Aljabeeba'so bias is it in favour of the Liberal left and single issue pressure groups.
    The BBC has also done more to push the Climate change swindle than anyone else in the UK as well.
    The rules&regulations for landlords like your mother in law are tough and cost a lot to comply with but she is not alone.
    Any form of enterprise is being taxed and regulated to death in Britain.
    Mainly thanks to belonging to the European Union in my opinion.
    And there is the rub.
    All main parties in this election are pro EU so whoever wins the problems stay the same.
    Different cheeks of the same Butt.
    Could I claim asylum in the USA rikib?

  63. Edith,

    Great news about Tom! It's fantasic that he has someone like you!


    You'll heal better and faster doing something that you like. As long as you listen to your body and don't push it too hard. That's the toughest part….


    WV: ovelat- an over-weight ocelot.

  64. BG_Farmer

    RE: Pointed pellets

    I'd agree that they would be expected to penetrate better than either flat of rounded pellets of same alloy and weight. However can you get the points to group as well?

    There are always exceptions but round head pellets seem to be the best overall in regards to grouping and penetration.

    As BB pointed out to me, you first have to hit a vital spot in an animal, then you worry about penetration or mushrooming.


  65. rikib,

    RE: RWS Hypers

    Have some in 0.22 caliber. Mine have a darker green skirt than shown. The head shape is basically ogive. The "shaft" that slides into the plastic skirt is smaller in diameter than the head of the metal "head" of the projectile. the base of the shaft is flat.

    The plastic skirt has a distinctive flange on the rear to engage the barrel rifling.

    On a distance of only 10 meters, none of the few cheap rifles that I have shoot them well.

    As Frank B noted they are "hyper-velocity" because they are lighter overall than a lead pellet. So the muzzle velocity is greater. However since the pellet is so light it doesn't carry well. It looses velocity faster than a lead pellet of same muzzle velocity.


  66. Herb
    Thanks that explains a lot about the hypers. I also use the 22's and noticed that they did not seem to be able to penetrate much of anything, other than a tin can.

  67. rikib,

    RE: "Standard" pellet weight

    For a given caliber, the weight of a round ball for that caliber provides a good estimate of the "standard" weight for the caliber pellet.

    A 0.22 round ball is about 15.4 grains. So the RWS is "light" at 11 grains. The "lightest" 0.22 pellet is probably the Gamo Raptor at 9.9 grains. The heaviest pellet that PA is currently selling in 0.22 is the Eun Jin Pointed .22 Cal which is 32.4 Grains.

    Referencing an vague article authored by that unknown authority BB Pelletier, such "Novelty" pellets as the PBAs & the plastic skirted Skencos are great additions to a pellet collection, but worth little for actually shooting. 😉

    If we haven't answered you question, do what we do. Just keep asking until someone does!


  68. DaveUK
    I don't know about claiming asylum here! My wife's cousin came to visit about 7 years ago on a 3 month visa. When his time was up we called the embassy about getting it extended. They said all he needed to do was fly back to the UK get his passport stamped that he was there and he could come back. So I took him to Atlanta airport he flew out I spent the night in Atlanta because he was just going to get his passport stamped in the UK and come back. Well all good so far. He got back and security would not allow him in the country (I couldn't even see him, just a phone call). Why? Their explanation, he never "technically" left the country! With the time difference he was back here before his passport was stamped in the UK. Ridiculous I know, but we have been fighting it for years. They say he is banned for at least 10 years for a visa violation.
    Doubt you'll get asylum here mate!

    Your going to have your general elections and now Poland needs to have elections (sure you've heard the news), and what was it last week the Afgan Pres. complaining about the USA. What we all gonna do about this world.

  69. Herb
    I'm still experimenting. I only own a 2240 so for the most part I do not really belong here, reading about all the guns everyone has. I've tried Crosman Premiers, Gamo, Daisy and the RWS Hypers so far. I think I like the Crosman best so far, but I know there are a lot more out there to try.

  70. Herb,
    I use the cheap pointeds for long range plinking, but I can't vouch that they are MOA performers, as if I've ever grouped them formally, its been a while. I do know that several times I've been able to hit a 1.5" target at 50 yards with them consistently, so I think they would be fine for head shots on squirrels at a slightly reduced range (maybe up to 35 yards).

    Just a suspicion, but I would think they might not be the best groupers at close ranges but would not disperse as quickly at longer ranges, because of their relatively high BC (and thus retained velocity). These are the Crosman Field Points, the cheap ones in the tins or cartons. If you haven't tried them in a 12+fpe air rifle, its cheap science:).

  71. Ya know… I tried the Crosman Premier pointed pellets – and couldn't reliably hit a 50-gal barrel at 60 yards with several rifles that could reliably wack a tennis ball at that range with Premier Domed.

    Out of the blue I decided to try the CHEAP Crosman pointed – the ones that look a lot like a CPL with a slightly pointier nose. Only tested one or two rifles – but they were surprisingly good. Not much worse than CPL's.

  72. rikib,

    No need to be humbled by what airgun you have. My "fanciest" is a recent purchase of a RWS 34. I wanted to give a "decent" 0.22 springer a try.

    Having a collection of 500 airguns is nice, but how often could you shoot them all?

    I can confirm one of BB's other observations though. You don't get what you didn't pay for. So my Daisy 22-SG multipump won't outperform the Discovery. 😉


  73. I shoot mainly at hard plastic targets w/2240, was wondering what anyone would recommended for best penetration/accuracy. Looking for quality 22 pellet that will provide me with both.

  74. rikib:
    It's DaveUK.
    I dusted off my oldish blogg site so if you wanted to chat direct on there be my guest mate.
    And of course anyone else as well.
    Just don't ask me any questions about airgunning as my advice is not to be recommended 🙂

    Bad business that Plane crash rikib and one has to always suspect the Russians in these matters.
    I know it sounds unfair but they killed a Russian dissident with radioactive plutonium in his coffee.
    In a Cafe.In the center of London.
    So who knows?
    Donkeyscrump is my old nickname at school by the way.
    3am so I must be off.
    Take care,

  75. Kevin,
    It appears that we will need to settle our dispute as Derrick40 suggests. A quick peek at Chairgun tells me at 1000 yards the drop with the Marksman will require that I shoot from the top of a mountain whilst you stand in the valley. I will ask that you wear blaze orange also, as my sight is not what it once was. Perhaps Derrick can supply you one of those flags old people put on their bikes also. We will schedule the date as soon as my full body Kevlar arrives.

  76. DaveUK
    I'll get to you! Don't know about the Russians this time. But you can never trust news reports either. Did they kill that Russian dissident today, haven't heard of that? When I was in the military I worked with the RAF so I know a lot of the feelings there.

  77. PLEASE no controversy just asking a question!
    What brings airgunners to the hobby/sport? For me I just wanted to shoot and this seemed a practical means. The wife was p/o'd with the airgun, would have gone ballistic if I brought home a firearm. Even though I used to shoot skeet with her best friend (till he past, couple years ago) she doesn't want a shotgun in the house.

    Well, back to the question. Some of these airguns/rirles cost near as much or more than firearms. So what draws people to airgunning? Is it the legal issues, where you can use them and licensing? Like I said I'm not looking for any uproar just wondering what has brought you all to this wonderful world of airgunning.

  78. Kevin,

    Seems to me Volvo doesn't think too highly of your shooting skills– he ordered a full body suit. Looks like you'll have to teach him a lesson like Achilles learned…
    Got your heels covered, Volvo?


  79. RikiB,

    the ability to shoot an airgun in one's basement, garage or backyard is a very powerful draw. That and pellets cost about as little as a .22LR round seals the deal, as far as I'm concerned. Plus it doesn't smoke up the basement or garage the way shooting a .22 would.

    Fred PRoNJ

  80. Fred
    That's the kind of honest answer I was looking for. I don't have a basement, carport (not garage), but plenty of land and also free access to Marine Corps shooting range. I guess ammo. cost would be a big thing to consider. Thanks for your feedback.

  81. AlanL,I need to borrow your pellet trap!Two shots from the DAQ .457 split my good cinder block cleanly in half….from 50 yards….with roundball.They are lighter than all my other "pellets".I promise to be careful with it and not shoot the frame,or use the 430 gr hollowpoints. :]

  82. Kevin per your request,


    Now and then, when I set my sights on something I have to have it. In my mind I build it up to the point it becomes irresistible, even if the reasoning is not terribly logical.

    Such was the case with the Benjamin Legacy SE.

    The Crosman Nitro Piston technology is like a new liquor, even though I already have my favorites I need to taste it.

    The copy for the gun promises: “This new Special Edition rifle features the smoothest cocking and easiest shooting rifle in our lineup to date” aah.

    “Airgun enthusiasts know that velocity ain't everything.” Yes that is me; I know power is grossly over rated in airguns.

    “Cocking this break barrel takes half the effort of a normal break barrel with a meager sixteen pounds of force required. But it still delivers 12 foot pounds of energy with velocities up to 620 fps” I hate effort the older I get, and 16 for 12 is a great ratio.

    “This gun is smooth, accurate and quiet with enough with power … to take some squirrels in your…yard.”

    I picture this as my perfect backdoor rifle that I can keep at the ready while I care for my nearly 1/3 of an acre. I will be safe from moles and rabid butterflies. SOLD.


    I arrive at the UPS store at 6:22, they close at 6:30, they are clearly not happy. But I need the rifle today. The box is heavy, very heavy. I glance at the shipping weight and it shows over 12 lbs.

    At home I discover a very nice hard case inside the box. So far so good, a quick check inside the case and I deflate a bit. The rifle is very muzzle heavy, and that is a trait I dislike immensely. A once over and I determine the Legacy is the equivalent making 12 gauge into a .410 without reducing the dimensions at all. That is not a plus.

    The mounts on the included scope have been installed incorrectly as the stop is on the front, an easy fix but it does make me wonder. Next, the stop pin is too large for the hole in the receiver. Nice. Okay, I have other mounts that I can use. Once mounted with no AO I cannot get it to focus at 15 yards. The included scope is useless on an airifle.

    Other than the scope snafu the big issue for me is the out of balance feeling.

    Now normally I am not a fan of synthetic stocks, but I actually like this one. It is the best part of the rifle. Good solid feel, soft cheek pad, large thumb hole cut out, very nice. Unfortunately it is burdened with a receiver and barrel that would befit stabilizing a 20 ft lb Springer instead of one that puts out just over 10 ft lbs.

    It is not the nirvana I had hoped for, sad thing is it could be.

  83. AlanL,

    The Kevlar is in case I fall down the mountain, I have no fear of Kevin hitting me. Not because he is not an accomplished shooter, but due to the fact that I will enlist the help of Matt61 to blind him with one of those fancy flashlights at just the right moment.

  84. Volvo,I have about 750 sq. ft. of Kevlar matrix cloth left over from a job I had….send a plaster casting and I'll buy some Lexan and get to work!A late congrats on the new job BTW

  85. RikiB,

    My interest in airgunning began when I was in the Air Force. The pest management guy would come get me on occasion and we'd shoot pigeons in the hangers with single pump pneumatics.

    Funny thing is, I didn't think of picking up another airgun until I had pigeon problems of my own, quite a few years later. That was after trying everything else to get rid of them, but I swear somebody in my neighborhood was feeding them because they kept coming back.

    My first airgun was a GAMO Big Cat 1250 from Wal-Mart, followed shortly after by a Crosman Storm XT. Knowing nothing about springers, I started looking around for pointers on how to improve my groups, and stumbled across the PA website. After that, I was thoroughly addicted.

    The Big Cat broke before I had it 90 days, and I took both it and the Storm XT back to Wal-Mart. Before the week was over, I had ordered my first real air gun – a TX200 MKIII – from PA.

    – Orin

  86. rikib:
    The Russian dissident was murdered about two years back.
    A slow painful death at that.
    The incident caused a big massive diplomatic stink but Britain like the rest of Europe is now reliant on a Russian Gas supply so nothing came of it.
    Another'Hit'was carried out in London by the communist bloc Hungarians back in the late 70s if I seem to remember.
    The victim was also a dissident and the weapon was an umbrella which concealed an air cane type gun.
    This was poked into the victims calf as he was walking in central London and a minute hollow ball containing poison was injected into him.
    He also died a little after the event.
    There was that Ukrainian presidential candidate about 4/5 years ago who was not Russian freindly and also got poisoned as well(not in the uk)he survived and went on to win the election.
    He never really physicaly recovered though.
    Could the Russians engineer a plane crash killing the Polish president?
    Very possible.The motive?
    Not Communist ideaology.
    If the Russians did do it,it would be about Power,money,oil&gas pipelines or the siteing of the US missile defence shield.
    I must add this is pure speculation on my part but I use the mantra,
    'Think the worst,hope for the best'.
    The Russians have done themselves no favours in the past so we are bound to look at them straight away when such things occur.

  87. For those of you who have the bronco, you guys know a good peep sight you would not have to modify that would work with the bronco?

    Also hows it holding up for you guys? thinking of getting one along with a peep, Thanks.


  88. Volvo,

    I concede the contest.

    Greatly appreciate your thorough review of the Legacy SE.

    I came real close to buying one after the high praise from Caesar. I also followed your inquiries on the yellow and was surprised at the minimalist responses.

    I'll admit a great prejudice to sythetic stocks but with so few new introductions of medium power springers it was something worth considering especially with the apparent smoothness of the nitro piston (already tuned feeling out of the box?).

    Last week I got to shoot the crosman npss which seems to have the same stock as the legacy se but is pure black vs. camo. The npss was doing a little over 900fps, had a trigger that felt like 4 lbs. and had a very sharp firing cycle. I handed it back to the owner after 4 or 5 shots.

    Great reminder of why I no longer own any magnum springers.


  89. RikiB,

    One or one hundred enjoy shooting what you got! It's your passion for our sport that got you here and keeps you here.

    I for one have be enjoying the questions and comments that you have been posting.

    Mr B.

  90. Frank B,

    Looks like I will not need the Kevlar after all.

    I shot the full power version of the Crosman NPSS over a Chrony prior also. That is what intrigued me. It was putting out 930’s in .22 which is no small feat, so that version is probably well worth the asking price, at least for someone looking for affordable power.

    Trigger wise my Legacy SE is not as heavy as your example, but I had planned on replacing it if I kept it anyway.

    The reason I am upset with the scope is I felt if I needed to sell the rifle, I would keep the scope to cut my losses. Have to wonder how a scope gets included for an air rifle that must be set for parallax at 50 or 100 yards. . .

    If I can’t sell it, I may send it to Rich in Mich to have the barrel shortened.

    It would appear I have perhaps saved you the agony of this experience. Put that on my tab along with the direction towards the R8.

  91. Glad to have received the responses as to why some of you have got into airgunning. It was just curiosity on my part as it seems to draw such a diverse group. Thanks for your inputs.

  92. DaveUK
    That was an excellent post on somethings maybe forgotten or never known. Maybe I'll send you another question that you can either reply to me or post here. Letting us know more of what is really going on than just what is in the news.

  93. Last night I asked if anyone had recommendations for 22 cal pellets shot from a 2240. Looking for accuracy and penetration. Did not hear anything so I thought I would repost. Thanks.

  94. Volvo,
    Good to see a Volvo review. Sounds like a foul tip rather than a home run. While I'm a big fan of slightly detuning harsh springers, it sounds like overkill for that rifle's purpose. The non-AO scope is pure cost-cutting with AO being so cheap these days. About the only scoped rifles I don't want AO on anymore are for deer and the like. Its a big plus on air rifles and RF's.

    I'm impressed by your open-mindedness about the synthetic stock. I had the same experience with my Savage .30-06, which I was going to put a laminated stock on. But really, after I saw that it didn't hurt accuracy to any noticeable degree, the ability to drag it through the woods and not care became a big plus. Old dogs:).

  95. Rikib,
    Have you tried the Crosman Field/Hunting Pointed's that we were talking about above?

    I think the reason you aren't getting a lot of responses is because you really have to try things yourself. 2 of my 3 rifles shoot Crosman Copperhead Wadcutters about as well as pellets that cost 2X what they do. Another won't group them to save your life, but will shoot RWS Diabolo Basics into one hole. As Herb says, penetration will be better with domes and points, but you have to balance that against accuracy according to your gun's preferences. Also, I often shoot "inferior" pellets that perform well enough for my purposes, e.g., plinking where JSB or the like is hard to justify.

    With the low power of that pistol, I would start with lighter weight lead pellets from RWS (e.g.,Basic, Hobby, Club) and work up.

  96. rikib:

    Just got in from shooting. As to your above question regarding 2240 ammo, I shot Crosman Premier .22 – 14.3 grain pellets in a 2250 (rifle version) and they seem to work well.


  97. BG_Farmer
    Right now I'm shooting the following: Gamo Magnums Spire Point, Crosman Premiers Pointed, Daisy Precision Max Flat Nosed and RWS Hypers. So far I side with the Crosman, I was just wondering if any 2240 shooters had found a pellet that worked best for them.

  98. Rikib,
    If you are having good luck with the Premier Pointeds, then try CPL's, esp. in light of Bub's recommendation, and Field/Hunting Points first. Don't rule out Crosman Copperhead Wadcutters either — they may not penetrate that well, but may be accurate depending on your range. Once you've tried all of those, if you still want more, then work through the RWS's (Superdomes are great for short ranges) and JSB's.

    Accuracy should be obtainable, but you are going to be limited in penetration by the low power of the pistol and the fact that it is .22. In fact, .22's are often selected to avoid over-penetration on game, due to higher weight, larger surface area, and lower velocities. Perhaps you could select targets that emphasize energy transfer rather than penetration, such as a spinner, or (my favorite) a can stuck sideways on a stick.

  99. BG_Farmer
    I easily get penetration on tin cans, I use paper targets for accuracy. I think that I may be answering my own question, but am I not getting penetration through 2 liter plastic soda bottles filled with water because the water almost makes them solid. I do get occasional penetration if I hit directly on the same spot more than once.

  100. It's the Return of the King. Welcome Back B.B.!

    Edith, you better take care that B.B. doesn't get into the habit of dictating. John Milton dictated the whole of Paradise Lost to his daughters and they were pretty wiped out by the effort.

    I'm not sure that I see the appeal of round balls outside of nostalgia. They can't possibly equal the accuracy of pellets.

    Those round balls will mess you up as my sixth grade nun found out. She was reading a series of rules to the class about how "balls should not be played with in the bathroom or bounced in the hallways" to storms of badly suppressed laughter from the more rambunctious kids. She tried to persevere for awhile. Then, when things got truly out of hand, she said in a terrible voice, "SUSAN! What are you laughing at?" Naturally, Susan was going to die before talking while the nun was equally determined to twist the horns of silence in her. The contest lasted for what must have been five minutes but felt like a century. Then, adding an extra edge to her voice, she proclaimed, "I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LAUGHING AT!" Well, I had to smile.

    Slinging Lead, I agree with what you said about Mussolini. Unfortunately, the guess about the tiny genitalia is not correct. Robert Leckie, from the Pacific series, wrote a complete history of the Second World War entitled Delivered From Evil which talks about the moral dimensions of the war and includes Mussolini. He, apparently, was sort of like Tiger Woods who, according to Leckie, "rutted like a bull in springtime." Leckie quotes from Mussolini's diaries which are not unlike Tiger Woods' text that you see floating around although a bit more discreet. Anyway, the Italians voted with their meathooks at the end.

    Vince, did you mention Flags of Our Fathers? Haven't gotten around to it yet, but I do heartily recommend Gregory Boyington's Baa Baa Black Sheep. More than any other memoir that one shows how the Japanese people were oppressed by their military and that they not only sympathized with the prisoners but even took substantial risks to help them out. Boyington was not your ideal Peace Corps candidate. He was a regular of the whorehouses throughout Asia while serving in the Flying Tigers and said that imprisonment by the Japanese was good for him since it dried him out from alcohol, so I'm inclined to credit his narrative.

    AlanL, B.B. has discussed the 45 degree angle and maximum range and he says that in practice, due to air resistance, the ideal angle is actually about 30 degrees.

    rikib, I shoot off about 150 rounds per day with airguns. No way could I do that with firearms for a variety of reasons.


  101. B.B. will be leaving the hospital this week. I've extracted several blogs from him this weekend. Next week, he'll be providing all new blogs.

    The changes I see in him from when I arrive at 9am until the time I leave at 4pm is nothing short of miraculous. The strides he made on Saturday were astounding. The strides he's made today are equally amazing.

    The doctor is considering releasing Tom somewhere between Tuesday & Thursday. Everything depends on his energy levels & his ability to walk around unaided all or most of the time.


  102. Matt61
    I can see that it would definitely not be economical by any means. Like I stated in my original post I was just wondering what drew some people to airguns vs firearms. Ammo. prices seem to be a deciding issue in addition to safety. The latter (safety) may just be my assumption of what may happen with the projectile (bullet or pellet) if target is missed completely and the range it will travel. I guess there may also be a licensing issue in some areas not just the USA.

  103. I had a "why we're into airguns" experience yesterday. I managed to set aside a few precious hours at the airgun range to get my extremely modest FT rig (my .22 Disco) dialed in for the first DIFTA match next weekend. Right after I had my targets all set out, a few Boy Scouts and their troop leaders, who were camping at our IWLA chapter, wandered by, and of course they were very interested in what I was up to. I said "you fellas want to shoot my air rifle?". The response was kinda like a bunch of Ralphies on Christmas morning.

    The weather was gorgeous and plenty warm enough to run the Disco on CO2 for like 60-80 shots per fill. Our airgun range (the same range depicted by BB here) is filled with spinners, hanging tin cans, field targets, pellet splitters, and other things that delight both oversized 12-year-olds like me and actual 12-year-olds. The scouts stayed with me for over an hour, and rattled off probably 90-odd rounds. A good time was had by all, including the adults. As we parted company, the scout leaders asked if they couldn't reimburse me for the ammo. I laughed and told them (exaggerating only slightly) that I didn't have change for a buck. If I had been shooting .223 or .30-06, I'd be in the poor house by now (and the field targets would be in bad shape!).

    VAT and the TV tax: Anybody remember the 80's show The Young Ones? With the TV inspector knocking on the door, Vyvyan eats the unlicensed TV in the house. The inspector sees Vyvyan with the power cord coming coming out of his mouth and says "Aha, the old 'eat the telly' trick!" Vyvyan replies, "No, it's a toaster."

    I order pipe tobacco from the UK now and then. I'm exempt from the VAT in these transactions, so I believe I pay less, shipped to Maryland, than a local walk-in pays at the shop.

    WV: gismst. No comment.

  104. Okay, once again I'm going to show how ignorant I am. I've been searching all over PA's site trying to find CPL pellets to no avail. So what are they and what should I be searching for? Going to try a web search now, don't know where that will lead.

  105. GenghisJan,
    I do believe you pay less, I get my snuff from the UK. Also for holidays my wife (being from the UK) always has food and drink delivered to her family there from local stores but being ordered from here (USA) it cost less than her mum would have to pay for the same thing.

  106. rikiB

    On the topic of what drew me into airguns, I suppose it was a multitude of factors and a confluence of events.

    First and most importantly, my parents would not let me have an airgun as a child. (BB had the same experience apparently) Unfortunately for me, my parents never relented, while BB's eventually did.

    After blossoming into adulthood, I got interested in firearms, but got frustrated with the expense and trouble of firing them when I wanted.

    I purchased a 1377 to dispatch troublesome varmints in my yard about a year ago. I was looking to do some improvements and customizing and was seeing all these crazy airguns on the internet that seemed so expensive. Around the same time my younger brother bought a Diana 48. He told me how nice it was, and blushed a little as he told me what he paid. This opened my mind to accept the fact that you didn't have to be wealthy to buy yourself a really nice airgun.

    Then I found the PA sight and this Blog, and I became interested in, and eventually purchased an Air Airms TX200. I have been a hopeless addict ever since.

    Less than a year later, I was up to 9 airguns. I gave away my Bronco to my nephew just today, so now I am down to 8. {:^(

    I cant remember where I read this, but it stuck with me:

    With a firearm, the projectile is also the powerplant. You pay for the powerplant every single time you pull the trigger.

    With airguns, the gun is the powerplant, and when you pull the trigger, you only pay for the small hunk of lead that it shoots. With .177 pellets, that cost is ridiculously cheap, even with GOOD pellets, such as Crosman Premiers in the Cardboard Box. So you can splurge a little on the airgun, since you are saving money over time.

    I can shoot my airguns inside my house if I want, and I can shoot my Marauder outside in the backyard without anyone hearing it. I can't do that with my Glock 19, or my Walther P-22.

    Ironically, killing varmints is what got me started, but after killing my first squirrel with my TX200, I don't have the heart to do it anymore. I like bug-busting otherwise I stick with targets.

    WV: kapsize!

  107. Jan

    Your story was superb. "Bunch of Ralphies on Christmas morning", priceless…

    I hope your goodwill is paid back in spades. (if not your pittance of generocity!) Gotta love how cheap a day of shooting is.

  108. B.B.–Scott298. I have been trying to find the blog about refinishing a gun stock. I know I asked about a blog on this subject and you let me have it with both barrels! You had mentioned that someone else had submitted a blog on this subject, but for the life of me I cannot find it. If you could point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you and I hope all is well, Scott298

  109. Just read on the internet news that Forbes has reported on the worst made cars on the road. Interesting list but I think they need to rethink it. Cadillac Escalde, Couple GM trucks, Ford F-250, Jeep Wrangler, etc. Must admit I maybe biased I love my Wrangler. Why are there no Toyota's on the list with all the recalls they have been having? I've had 3 Jeeps (1 Cherokee, and 2 Wranglers) only problem I had was with the Cherokee after I drove it through almost 3ft of water started having some electrical problems (my fault not the Jeep). Why are these agencies so quick to put down american made vehicles? Sorry just venting after reading that news report.

  110. Scott298,

    I'll try to help you on your stock refinishing.

    Several questions that will help me help you.

    What type of wood do you have?

    What type of finish is on the gun now? Oil? Poly? Shellac?

    Do you want to sand it down to bare wood, steam dents and thenrefinish or do you want to finish over what you have?

    Do you want to change the tone/stain of the wood before a finish is applied?

    BG_Farmer, please chime in.


  111. I, for one, am very disappointed that Kevin and Volvo are both backing out of their mutually agreed to duel, as proposed by derrick38.

    I can't remember what the whole thing was about, and I don't think that there ever really was anything, but they can't both just let it go! There's principalities in this. Doesn't anybody hold a grudge anymore?

    I was going to propose more of an El Kabong style duel, except with gunstocks instead of guitars.

    If you guys ever reconsider, please let me know. I would like to post the video on YouTube.

  112. Slinging Lead
    I like that, it makes a lot of sense. I could go out back an shoot most any gun, but as everyone has said the ammo cost is a big difference. Now that I'm thinking about when I would go skeet shooting, it could get a little expensive. Not something you could do everyday like you can with pellets.

  113. Rikib, from what I can tell all the hoopla over Toyota vehicles was largely orchestrated by the owner of one of Toyota's largest competitors.

    That would be the U. S. Government.

    So no, I don't believe that Toyota's are really so bad that people 'shouldn't drive them', as I believe an employee of GM's owner (the Secretary of Transportation) once said.

  114. rikib
    CPL is for Crosman Premiere Light.
    These are domed pellets.
    The distinction "light" is usually used with .177 pellets, as there are the 7.9 grain and the CPH..or heavy 10.5 grain.
    In .22, a crosman domed pellet is only 14.3 grain…no heavies.


  115. Edith,

    wonderful news about Tom. Looking forward to his return home and to eventual full health and blogs. In fact, he and Josh of PA got me thinking today. I took a motorcycle ride north through Northern NJ and Orange County, NY. It's still pretty agrarian up there and there are lots of tractors that have been worn out and even some restored, by the sides of the roads. So, I think in a month or so when I get enough photos, I will post a link for all that are interested to "Fred's Tractor Tour". Stay tuned to your favorite blog for more details!

    Fred PRoNJ

  116. Slinging Lead,

    The Kevin/Volvo duel was sparked by this comment from rikib who opined that Kevin should not stand for Volvo's insults (nor argue with an idiot) and worse, allow himself to be called a collector (such a low blow!)

    I too am disappointed Kevin caved. I wanted to see Volvo in his kevlar pj's… or maybe not!


  117. Matt: That sixth-grade experience of yours was straight out of Life of Brian!

    Kevin/Volvo: I'm with SL. Have you no honuh? Besides, duelling can be fun. I once went paintballing with some friends; wasn't quite as much fun as I imagined. But afterwards, a buddy and I decided to expend our surplus ammo 18th-century style: ten paces, turn, and fire. By far the most fun (and painful!) part of the paintball outing. Oh, man; now you've got the "Glove Slap" song from that Simpsons episode stuck in my head.

    Wayne: poor, neglected USFT#44, sitting out the whole season! I think you need somebody to exercise the old girl now and then. I could provide just such a service at a competitive rate. Please contact me to discuss my terms.

  118. Matt61

    I would really hate to become the blogger who is known for being the guy who is always talking about the size of genitalia, nonetheless…

    Former president Bill Clinton is known for his voracious sexual appetite. In Monica Lewinsky's deposition, she was questioned about the, err, character? of the president, so that the veracity of her statements could be checked with, uhm, objective evidence? You catch my drift.

    Her statement was, "Think of a thumb." Hmmm, not so good. I imagine she, being a female, has much smaller thumbs than I do.

    Also, if Robert Leckie was quoting from Il Douche's diary, it undoubtedly contained as many lies as his propaganda.

    I can't imagine him writing, "Yet another conquest could not contain her hysterical laughter…"

  119. Kevin-Scott298. I have been off the blog for while-didn't even know B.B. was in the hospital! Again to Edith-who I refer to as "mom" from your "adopted son" I hope all is well. Kevin-I have a rws 350 in factory finish and would like to re-do it to basically out of the box condition. To make this easier my e-mail is sherlihy298@hotmail.com. Never did any steaming before but I have gotten dents out by soaking a paper towel and placing it over the dent. Overnight the moisture creeps into the dent and swells the wood back out. I'm not sure what type ao finish the gun has from the factory but I was considering going to bare wood, staining then putting on a hand rubed wax finish-what are your thoughts? Again "mom" tell "Dad" I wish him a speedy recovery, your "adopted" and out of touch "son", Scott.

  120. Vince
    I did not say that people should not drive Toyotas, I was simply asking what opinions were out there about "Forbes" determining that these "worst made vehicles" where American "branded". I believe a large percentage of Toyotas are manufactured here.

  121. Edith:
    Roll on Tuesday.And if the Doctor uses British GMT that will come even sooner.
    Being in hospital is enough to drive any sane man nuts.
    Best wishes to you both.

    Wow,you got 'The young ones'show in the USA?
    I never knew that.

    It would be easy to say that I got into Air weapons because I had no choice,what with Britains tight gun laws.
    However that is not really true.
    I like airguns because they are a stand alone weapon.
    No cartridges or powder needed.
    Just a pellet.
    Slinging lead put it already,
    'The gun is the powerplant'.
    When you think how complex a firearm cartridge is to make or indeed the black powder for a muzzle loader even.
    Where in extreme circumstance would an ordinary man begin to make, from scratch, cartridges or black powder?
    Like a bow or crossbow you could make ammo for an airgun if you needed to,But the fact a man could carry 1000 rounds of .22 pellets in his jean pockets makes that an unlikely problem 🙂
    That thought of total independance is what I like about air weapons I reckon.
    All the Best,

  122. Rikib – never said you did. But the Secretary of Transportation did (on 3 FEB). And he is an officer of the Federal Government. And the Federal Government owns GM and stands to profit by Toyota's problems. And since the government is also the regulatory agency… they get to MAKE problems for Toyota!

    I've got 26 years in as a Fed employee, and there are an incredible number of rules governing my behavior so as to avoid the 'appearance of a conflict of interest'. Well, in this case there is no appearance – it's there IN SUBSTANCE.

    You were asking why there were no Toyota's on the 'worst' list despite all the recalls. I'm suggesting that if Government Motors were having the exact same problem with the exact same components you wouldn't see nearly as big a stink being made over it.

    Publicity does not always reflect reality. Toyota's are still very good cars, despite the hoopla.

  123. Vince,
    I couldn't agree more. US Govt. under an adm. with heavy union ties buys GM and starts prosecuting Toyota, a successful non-union car maker. I'm not saying there's any wrongdoing, but the sure is the appearance of impropriety and conflict of interest.

    WV: terse; I hope I can be:)

  124. Kevin,
    Looks like you have the stock refinishing under control, but if there's any questions you need my help on (unlikely), let me know. Jay's project looks closest to what Scott probably wants to do.

  125. Vince
    I'm not knocking Toyota's. In fact I owned a Camry and it saved my life in an accident. An 18yr old was driving a GMC Jimmy on his birthday that he had just installed a new stereo in and was playing with it when he crossed the median caught me just behind the front door. Police told me markings on the road showed that I had spun around 3 times before ending up in the ditch and they didn't expect to find me or my girlfriend alive (the car was almost tore in half).
    My comment was more concerning Forbes reporting on worst made cars on the road being from GM, Ford, Jeep, etc.

  126. Dave: Yeah, IIRC, it was actually MTV that aired 'The Young Ones' in the late 80's. Most of what I know about the UK, I learned from those episodes, and of course endless Python viewing to the point of memorization. I don't know how you nice folks get anywhere on time, what with all that silly walking. Then again, if you're ever faced with a survival situation, you already know How Not To Be Seen.


  127. Vince
    Also you could not convince me that my Jeep Wrangler or my previous Jeeps are some of the worst made vehicles on the road (or off-road).

    You did say though, that you are a Fed employee so maybe you could.

  128. Scott298,

    Re: "out of the box condition for and RWS 350"

    I think BG_Farmer is more qualified than I am. He's the expert with poly finish which is what I think the current RWS guns are sprayed with. C'mon BG.

    Scott298, the first thing we have to determine is how deep the damage has penetrated. If your stain/finish is compromised you may have to take it down to bare wood. This is "radical surgery" that a newbie wants to avoid.

    If your damage is small enough you can steam the dents or flash minor imperfections and REFINISH over the top of the existing finish and save yourself a lot of time and grief.

    Before you can be successful steaming dents (raising the grain) of indented wood you have to determine the finish. On current RWS models they're sprayed with poly. A hard finish, relative to depth, that resists moisture. To be successful in raising the grain/steaming dents you have to carefully remove this coating that inhibits moisture penetration. You can "spot trate" these areas by carefully removing the top coat of poly with 0000 steel wool. The current poly coats are thin on the rws models so it won't take a lot of work to remove this "last skin" of finish.

    Steaming dents is most effective for minor imperfections and can be done by placing a wet cloth over the dent and taking a hot iron (or large screwdriver heated with a torch) and placing it above the dent. Don't "brand the wood". You can also take some lighter fluid on a q tip and place it on the dent and quickly light a match to "flash" the dent back into position.

    Refinishing is another story.

    What would help is that you post a link to pictures (photobucket??, or?) that would allow us to see the damaged areas that are the catalyst for your refinishing motivation. At the same time we would see the finished areas on your gun that need to be matched for an "out of the box new" gun.


  129. BG_F, it stinks to high heaven. Ever, ever in the history of the Dept. of Transportation has the secretary told people to 'stop driving their cars'??? Sure, he later took it back – but those words sure must've been itchin' to come out of his mouth. Absolutely and totally irresponsible and defamatory. That clown should've been fired – but no! And why? His problem wasn't wishing for the wrong thing. His problem – oddly enough – was one of honesty. For a brief moment SOMEONE in that administration plainly said what they really wanted.

    Can you imagine what would have happened if the owner of every affected Toyota took his advice and had their cars towed to a dealer? Can anyone comprehend what this would have done to Toyota?

    Until someone makes an objective review of mechanical failure- related accidents of Toyota's vs. everyone else and demonstrates a significantly higher risk, then most of the crap you hear is just that. But the vast majority of journalists have absolutely no capacity for rational analysis. Certainly, at least, out of the ones I've read.

    I've only owned 1 Toyota in my life (20+ years ago), had it for a few weeks and sold it. So I'm not a Toyota fan. But I utterly despise such blatant, no-two-ways-about-it hypocrisy, scapegoating, and hysteria-hyping.

  130. All,

    My daughters and I just got back from an outing organized by a group of interested school fathers who put together fun father-daughter events and activities. This afternoon's event was to the winter getaway of one of the dads way out in the Everglades. He has about 60 acres, with nature trails, ponds, lagoons, you name it. We had a great cookout and fun activities for a bunch of girls from 6th to 10th grades. They canoed and swam in one of the lagoons with an island in the middle, and in this lagoon he keeps a pet alligator just two feet long. It was interesting to observe the differences amongst girls not scared at all, others frightened out of their bobbysox and yet others too embarrassed to be seen in a bathing suit at all.

    Now, where am I going with this? Brilliant Alan decides he is going to take a pellet gun along for all the girls to have some fun and get exposed to some FT. I chose the Bronco of course, and my CPL's.

    I asked the host dad if I could nail a paper plate to a tree and supervise the girls that wanted to try their hands at shooting a pellet gun. To my utter surprise the reaction went as follows:

    "Ah… no."
    "Ummm, but, you've got loads of space– it would be safe."
    "That's an air gun, you said, right?"
    "Yeah, an air gun. Not a "real" gun. Just a light plinker, really, nothing dangerous."
    "Uh, sorry, no. I don't really know all the people here very well, and I don't know what's in their heads."
    "Ah… okay. Too bad. Thought it would be fun for the girls. Maybe next time."

    A few hours later, when we set out for home again, imagine my amazement when I spotted a neat little rifle range with a berm maybe 100 yards distant, and all kinds of drums and targets shot full of holes at different distances. And in the far corner of the range, a .155 WWII howitzer rusting away.

    Now here's a guy who obviously likes the outdoors, shoots powder burners, but was scared to let an airgun be seen in the presence of teenage girls and their dads. I still can't believe it. I think it speaks very sadly to the liability-paranoid consciousness we have allowed to develop in this ridiculously over-litigious society that we live in today.

    If this had been MY place, I'd have put Wacky Wayne's range to shame and brought at least ten new enthusiasts to our sport. Aaaarrrrgh!


  131. rikib,

    Gotta agree on the Jeeps. I've had 3 and the only problems I've had were caused by myself. I currently have a '98 Wrangler SE (no frills 4 banger) and it still burns no oil, has most of the original power, and is "tight" after 177,000 miles! 🙂


  132. Vince

    The fact that GM is a subsidiary of the imperial federal government, and the fact that Toyota usurped GM as the world's largest auto-maker (before VW usurped them) and the convenient timing of the government/media selective outrage, uh, um… total coincidence. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an out-of-control Toyota. Everyone knows that.

    BTW, I can't remember, what was the name of the automaker that made the full-sized flareside pickups that exploded into violent fireballs if hit from the side? Then they tried to hide the results of their own tests, and tried to stonewall the multitude of lawsuits filed? Can't remember the name of that automaker.

  133. AlanL,

    You just struck a major chord/nerve inside me.

    I echo your sentiments. A perfect setting with a perfect circumstance to introduce our youth to shooting but it seems our impotent/politically correct/liability freaked society has been scared into believing that it's wrong.

    It was Thomas Jefferson who said, "Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not".


  134. /Dave
    Don't know why people put down Jeeps all the time (not here though), especially about comfort. I have always found mine (all three) comfortable. Just this past Christmas I drove from SW Georgia to Canada, found it quite comfortable and my soft-top was not noisy at all. Got me through a lot of snow and some heavy winds.
    On edmunds.com reviews they said "for better or worst, there is only one Jeep Wrangler"

  135. Kevin & Scott,

    OK, Kevin, but are you sure you want to start me talking:).

    I haven't tried this one, but I've seen good reports about it:
    Otherwise, Kevin is right about removing it carefully with steel wool, especially if trying to maintain the factory stain (assuming it is not in the topcoat). I don't think I could be that careful and usually am intending to do some restaining or shaping, so just sand it off. Wouldn't hurt to try the chemical, though.

    Assuming you can get all the poly off and are happy with the factory finish after repairing dents, you won't need to stain. If you do need or want to stain the wood, we can help you with that.

    If you want to go with poly finish again, Minwax wipe-on Satin (or gloss) Poly is a miraculously easy to use finish, and you can have a protective finish in a couple of days if you keep on it. If you want to get really fancy, you can build the layer you want with gloss poly and then put a couple of top coats of satin or semi-gloss on top. That will make for a more transparent finish, but the difference is subtle.

    I also make my own wipe-on poly by thinning the thick stuff, but the Wipe-on Poly is a great product and one pint will do several rifles. One big advantage of poly is that a good job with 220 or even 180 grit final sanding is adequate for a smooth finish (and I wouldn't count on factory sanding to go much higher than 150, but that's just a guess), as poly will fill and seal most woods without any extra work. The first coat or so will look "dry", but keep at it, wiping on thin coats. I usually don't use steel wool b/t coats (applied as quickly as one dries past tacky) on stained wood until I've got a film to avoid scratching through the stain. After that, between coats or most importantly between sets of coats after an overnight hiatus, I will use #0000 steel wool (or better alternative) _very_ lightly so that there is just a very fine white haze over the surface and wipe it off with mineral spirits. Be careful with "sanding" b/t coats, as the wipe-on layers are much, much, much thinner than brush-on poly, and all you are trying to do is scratch the surface a bit. The wipe-on is so thin and dries so fast that I almost never have any runs or dust problems with it.

    My recommendation would be not to use any more coats of poly than are required to get a uniform film layer — if you build too much, you will get the wood encased in glass look and feel. I don't think that doing so adds any significant additional protection. Of course, if you like the glass look, it just takes more coats:). In my experience with the wipe-on products, four coats builds a film that can be "scratched" after setting up overnight, then four more the next day adds more than adquate protection.

    PS. I've used the wet paper towel over a dent trick and it works well. An iron may be a little better and faster.

  136. Bg Farmer,

    The scope that came with the Benjamin Legacy SE has the two color illuminated reticule, so I fear cost was not as much the issue as just a bad decision to not make it an AO instead. Clearly they played to what they felt would be cool versus actually useful.

    Slinging Lead,
    Today you said “After blossoming into adulthood” Dude, really?
    As far as the duel Kevin and I have decided to move forward, but from our current geographical locations. Once again I consulted Chairgun for trajectory info, as expected; we will need to hold over a good bit for an accurate Ohio to Colorado shot.

    While you are correct now, Volvo use to rock a Speedo – circa 1981.
    Civil service, sweet. Sounds like I’ll buy some of the new GM stock.

  137. Genghisjan,

    I cann't take you up on your most generous offer of joining you at the first DIFTA match next weekend.

    Number One son is coming in from NC for a 2nd Amendment rally and that's were we'll be, but I'm still really looking fwd to the next one that you have.

    Mr B.

  138. All this talk about refinishing stocks has given me some more professional ideas about the basic woodworking and staining procedures I've used in the past on furniture. Thanks!

  139. Volvo

    Heck yeah I blossomed. It was a beautiful thing.

    Actually, it was more like I suddenly grew into the very epitome of raw masculinity.

    OK, maybe that is gilding the lily a little bit. I got hairy, and my voice changed. Good enough?

    Ewww, a banana hammock? What are you, French? There outta be a law against that. If you wear it to the duel, Kevin will be at a disadvantage from having to avert his eyes.

    You will not have to buy stock in GM. As an American taxpayer, you are already part owner. One day soon, GM's profits will skyrocket due to inspired leadership, and savvy decision making– our tax burden will then be reduced as a kind of dividend. HAW HAW HAW. Can you imagine if things really worked that way? Aww man, that was a good one…

  140. Kevin + BG–From Scott298-I used to import furniture from mexico(rustic pine) and am familiar with the rigors of sanding and staining. I once refinished a ruger 10-22 (when I was young), and finished it off with a gloss finish-hated it. If I venture to going to bare wood what are your thoughts on using a sanding sealer, stain then hand rubed wax? Atr there any new tricks that I can employ at this point? I'm refering to the part of the stock where the barrel rests. Have you ever heard of anyone padding this area with say a thin layer of foam-so in the end the barrel would not be resting directly on the wood-or is this a big no-no? My thought process is that the action of the gun would be better cradled in the stock and my dampen any vibration. The rifle is a Diana 350 and the damage on the stock are minor dings and dents which do not seem to have broken through the finish. I appreciate all of your responses and would like to thank the both of you. Scott

  141. Morning Scott298,

    An intersting though, but the barrel doesn't touch the stock any place. I think you mean the tube that holds the spring, etc?

    That being said, you might be on to something. Perhaps Vince will make a comment or two.

    Mr B.

  142. Scott298,

    It doesn't sound like you've got significant damage to the stock that would warrant taking it down to bare wood. I'd try to steam the dents and use a wipe on poly as BG_Farmer suggests to make the finish uniform.

    It's easy to knock down the gloss on any finish that appears to shiny to your eyes. Allow your finish to completely dry. Sometimes this will take a week or more depending on your temperature and humidity. After your stock finish has cured, take a clean cotton rag and add some rubbing compound to stock mud and go over the enitre stock lightly. Birchwood Casey makes a product called Stock Sheen Conditioner that will also take the gloss off your finish.

    An alternative to poly is oil. Here's a good tutorial on an oil finish with suggestions on different products:


    Applying a layer of wax after you've finished your stock to your satisfaction is good gun maintenance. Volvo introduced me to rennaisance wax and it's now my favorite.

    As far as "cradling the action in the stock better" you're referring to "bedding the action". Very common in firearms. I've read about some people that have bedded their airguns and liked the results. Here's a good site that talks about bedding:


    If you scroll down to the bottom of the page of the last link I gave you and click on "Home" you'll find a wealth of information on stock finishing, stainin, fuming, pillar bedding, etc.

    Hope this helps.


  143. Scott298,

    I have actually considered bedding an action in some material that would absorb the vibrations of the spring and piston travelling back and forth. It's still on my list of things to do when and if I have time and money. The link above has some very good recommendations from folks who use such materials in their day jobs.

    My main hope would be to calm the hold-sensitivity for a springer. Of course, the number one way to do that is to address the root cause, which usually entails a good tune job (i.e. new spring guides, better fitting spring, honing, etc.).

    One day, I'll get back around to it 🙂


  144. Scott,
    Kevin's got you on the right track. Wax alone wouldn't hold up to gun stock use long at all, but you can put it on top of whatever finish you like.

    Don't use sanding sealer before stain — stain will never penetrate. Your stock is almost certainly beech and it is not that absorbent to start with. I don't think it is necessary to fill the pores of beech at all — it is a closed pore wood, unlike walnut. Sand, stain, and finish. The darkness of the color when staining beech is mostly controlled by how fine you sand. 220 is a good idea, 180 will be darker, 150 darker still. I wouldn't go beyond 220 unless you will be happy with a very light colored stock. It is, however, a good idea to go one step higher(finer) in grit on large sections of exposed endgrain, as that helps to equalize the rate of stain uptake with the regular wood.

    Good point about taking the gloss off. I mostly finish up with satin because it has the softer sheen I like and doesn't require any rubbing unless there is a problem, but its a "good enough" approach rather than ideal.

  145. Kevin,
    Bahh Humbug:). That is a nice no non-sense link to finishing that you posted. I have to say that his "worst possible finish" picture really is the stereotypical gloss poly job. I'm itching to try Minwax Antique Oil Finish (which a lot of people say is much better than Tru-Oil), but I keep withdrawing into my comfort zone, assailed by doubts that anything but space-age polymers can protect my stock:).

    You really need to blog (even multiparts) your refinishing jobs — it might help out Edith and Tom, and people seem to be interested in how to do it.

    PS. I'm hiding in the house this morning from a jack that wants to do "service" and he ain't particular about the client:).

  146. Volvo used to put rocks in his speedo? What on earth for???

    Reminds me of an off-color joke with no bad words… A guy at the beach couldn't get any girls to pay attention to him. His buddy said – "Here's what you do. Get a large potato, and drop it in your swimsuit. You'll get LOTS of attention from the girls!".

    Next day the guy says to his buddy: "I tried the potato thing but it just didn't work! It was WORSE! The girls didn't just ignore me, they ran AWAY from me!!!"

    To which his buddy replies: "The potato goes in the FRONT, you idiot!"

  147. B.B.–Scott298-you are right about where I would like to put down something in the stock-it would be where the action sits. If you have ever heard of anyone doing so-with a springer I'm all ears. Glad to see your doing better. Here is the age old question I have not been able to figure out about Hospitals. Why is it that when your young and single every nurse you see is always shorter than you are, is always packing at least 50lbs. more than you and can grow a better mustache. The 2nd you get married ALL THE NURSES are in their early or mid 20's and look like Playboy models! Life is not fair, thank-god as we get older we can truly appreciate a good springer and holding an Air Arms Tx in my hands can bring a warm sensation in one's heart! With that being said you and "mom" have 8 months to save up for that special gift for your aging "son". Glad to have you back B.B., Scott298 over and out. P.S. Thank-you Kevin and BG for all your input.

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