Vintage pellets

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • When I was a boy…
  • Tins are collectible
  • Pellets oxidize
  • Accurate?
  • Two targets
  • Come a long way

Let’s be honest — the hobby may be about airguns, but without pellets it dies real fast. Most of us don’t think about the pellets we shoot, other than how accurate they are in whatever we are shooting or do they do the job on the target. If you’re an airgunner for any length of time, eventually you’ll end up with pellet tins from the past — maybe even a past that happened before you got into the sport.

When I was a boy…

One phrase my father used all the time started with, “When I was a boy…” There was usually some object lesson after that. Like, “We walked 5 miles to school regardless of the weather.” Or, “We found ways to make our own money. Nobody gave us anything!” Because he was my father, his mother — my grandmother — never contradicted him in front of me. What has become popular today (intentional embarrassment of a parent in front of their child) was unthinkable in the 1950s. Little pictures have big ears and children should be seen and not heard were the watchwords of the day.

Well, dear readers, when I was a boy the only pellets you could buy were Benjamin high-compression pellets. They came in a green tin that was recognizable to most kids. When I got back into airgunning as an adult and returned to the U.S. those tins were nowhere to be found. They had been replaced by colorful tins from German, the United Kingdom and Japan. The Beeman company had just started up and they had colorful boxes and later tins of their own.

Benjamin tins

The green lithographed Benjamin tin was familiar to many small boys. To the right is a plain tin with a green Benjamin sticker — the start of cost controls. The price on the tin on the left was marked up after sitting in a store unsold for 30 years.

alternate Benjamin tin I

n the 1970s Benjamin dropped the green boxes and tins in favor of an orange and white sticker. Sorry if it’s not orange — I’m colorblind.

Benjamin pellets

Pardon the appearance, but that is what a half-century of oxidation does to a lead pellet. Two Benjamin high-compression pellets from the 1930s-1960s.

Beeman pellet boxes

Β Beeman pellet boxes and tins used to be color-coded by caliber. Blue for .177, gold or yellow for .20, green for .22 and red for .25.

Tins are collectible

Today those Benjamin tins are collectors items in their own right and the colorful Beeman boxes I once thought of as state-of-the art are getting to be collectible, too. Here’s a question for you — were those vintage pellets from the time of the dinosaurs any good? The answer depends of what you mean by good.

Pellets oxidize

I remember seeing tins of Benjamin pellets sitting on store shelves. When the tin was opened, the pellets inside shined with a brilliant luster. The oil they were packed in was there to preserve that luster, and I can remember the day I opened a tin to find the oil dried up and the pellets turning dull gray and even white from oxidation.

Accurate?

Were those pellets accurate? Again, it depends. We thought just hitting a tin can with a pellet at 30 feet was a pretty astounding feat in 1956. Yes, Benjamin pellets were that accurate. But I remember a test I did for The Airgun Letter in the ’90s that involved shooting a Crosman 160 rifle using the new .22-caliber Crosman Premier pellets and then with the period Crosman “ashcan” pellets of the ’60s. There was no contest. The Premiers buried the ashcans, revealing the fact that the 160 was quite accurate with the right ammunition. Who knew? Better yet, we couldn’t have done anything about it if we did know, because were were trapped in time. Ashcans were what we had.

Crosman ashcan pellet box

This was the Crosman pellet box in the 1960s.

ashcans and Premiers

Crosman ashcan pellets from the 1960s (do I need to tell you they’re on the left?) and two Crosman Premiers.

Two targets

I did another test. I shot the same rifle at 10 meters, using two different pellets. The top target was shot 5 times with RWS R10 heavy pellets of today. Bottom target shot with Crosman ashcans. If that target doesn’t illustrate the advancements in pellet technology, I don’t know what will.

two targets

RWS R10 pellets shot the target on top at 10 meters, and the same air rifle shot 5 Crosman ashcans at the target below. The difference is pretty astounding!

Come a long way

We’re come a long way when it comes to diabolo lead pellets. Today’s pellets have more potential than most shooters realize. But if you had to shoot the pellets that used to be available, you’d see the difference right away.

161 thoughts on “Vintage pellets

  1. Pingback: Vintage pellets | Airguns: Air Rifles and Pistols

  2. B.B. With computer modelling and precision sorting, NOW is the good old days of pellets…amen.
    Do you think the .20 caliber will eventually go away? Seems there are fewer and fewer guns available in that caliber and fewer types of pellets to choose from.

    -Y



      • Totally off topic. I’ve a new Marauder .22 shooting real low and barrel seems almost to be touching the band. I’ve read or thought I had, you mentioning being able to bend upwards upon a barrel not nessarily bending it but changed its position. So guess I’m asking would it be OK to remove my band and do said bending and not damage the rifle. And yes i know would be a gentle pull upwards not gonna hook to my car, lol.
        Thanx for any advice given,
        William Dawson


        • William,

          When you say the Marauder barrel, the actual barrel cannot be seen from the outside of the gun. You seem to be taking about the barrel shroud that surrounds the barrel.

          DON’T BEND THAT!

          Let’s see if we can find out what might be wrong with your rifle without bending anything.

          Step one. Remove the baffles and examine them for nicks from the pellets. To do that, read this report:

          /blog/2013/12/benjamin-marauder-22-repeater-with-synthetic-stock-part-2/

          If a pellet nicks one or more of the baffles, the gun won’t shoot where it should.

          Another test is to shoot the rifle at distance (40 yards or more) with all the baffles removed. See where it hits then.

          B.B.


        • William,

          The barrel band is easy to move. There is 2 set screws on the bottom. Just loosen those and it will rotate. I had to do that on my .25 that I recently got. It was touching the shroud when I took it out of the box.

          Chris


          • OK maybe that’s what I wanted to do lol cause it’s making tiny holes, well with me behind it I call em tiny I’ve a pic to share so is OK to post on here and see if it looks OK to y’all cause I’m think your barrel band idea is where I wanted to go in first place. Although I don’t have a special Kennedy brother dime with my stash to compare my hole. Like BBs


            • Rock,

              Glad it worked. I am not sure that it makes any difference, but that type of thing is just not good.

              As for pics,… if you know how, then cool. People do it from time to time.

              There is lot’s you can do with an M-rod,… and I am doing or pondering most of it.

              Have fun and enjoy.


  3. BB
    Well let me see if I’m remembering right. I was 10 years old in 71 and was around 6-7 years old when I started shooting air guns. So late 60’s and into the 70’s is when I got my start on air gunning.

    I can remember the green tin of Benjamin pellets. Also the Beeman pellets that were in my ARH catalog though I never actually had any. And I for sure remember the black Crosman super pells with the red lid.

    But something that I didn’t see you mention and I got reminded by the Crosman super pells on the black box and it states they are lubricated. And that was the Daisy pellets. If I remember right they had like a black graphite kind of powder on them back in the early days. It wasn’t lead dust. It would actually feel slick if you rubbed your finger and thumb together. And what’s strange is I don’t remember the Crosman super pells being lubricated like the box said.

    I guess I was young and wasn’t fully paying attention to the pellets. But I’m pretty sure it was Daisy’s that we shot in some benchrest shooting I did in the early 70’s with some club guns at the local shooting range my dad would go to. That was many many moons ago so no tell’n if I’m getting my story right. All I know is I had a good time back then.



  4. I have a sealed “pepperbox” can of the Crosman Ashcans and half a can of white Ashcans in the .22 cal pellet drawer. I wondered if they had any collectors value.

    My .22 pellets of choice (the only pellet available πŸ™‚ ) were the Webleys in the orange rectangular can. Wish I would have known that they could be collectors items – I had 3 shoe boxes full of empties from a summer’s shooting.

    For the Slavia 618 we used Milbro Jet pellets that came in a ochre colored cardboard box – used to buy them by the case.

    Shooting 500 pellets a day was the norm for us.


  5. BB

    I have a box of Crosman Lubricated Super Pells with identical markings as yours. I opened the top perhaps for the first time and if they were lubricated, it has dried. They do look to be in good condition with no sign of oxidation. I had intended to shoot these but maybe not.

    Decksniper


  6. The first pellets that shot well for me back in the 1980’s were the Beeman Silver Jets. I still have a couple boxes in .177 and one box in .20 cal.

    Mike


  7. Yes, I remember that that test. I still use a few from time to time in the FWB 124. It shoots them well. The .20 caliber pellets are for the Sheridan “C”. That said, I most often use JSB’s in the Sheridan.

    Mike


  8. B.B.,

    Reading today’s report reminded me of the one you did some time ago testing the fabled Sheridan .20 Cylinder pellet against modern diabolo .20 Crosman Premiers. Folks can get as nostalgic as they want to be, but the proof is on the target: /blog/2011/12/are-vintage-sheridan-pellets-better-than-modern-pellets/

    Michael


  9. I remember the Crosman ash can pellets from the 60’s and 70’s. I shot them in a scoped Crosman 1400 with the sliding breech cover that my dad had gotten somewhere. You had to be careful with them or you’ d deform the skirts. Probably the reason that I didn’t hit many of the starlings I shot at in our back yard. I do remember that 1400 having a really good crisp trigger.


  10. B.B.

    Are today’s pellets still composed of 100% pure lead? Or are the manufacturers using lead blended with antioxidants to increase the life span of the pellets?


  11. B.B.

    I phrased that second question badly. What I mean to ask, are the manufactures blending the lead with small percentages of other metals to provide more resistance to lead oxidation?


    • Charles,

      I don’t think there is a metal that will alloy with lead to reduce oxidation. So they usually coat them with graphite.

      I’m told that “pure” lead pellets do have a little antimony in them for hardness.

      B.B.


  12. B.B.

    Alloying lead with a small percentage of antimony for improved hardness sounds right. I started my chemistry career at a lead smelting company back in ’84. The harder lead alloys contained small percentages of antimony and tin as I recall. Some of the lead alloys also contained sulfur, but I can’t recall the reason to add sulfur.


  13. I know that the CHPs that you can buy in the big box storeroom look smaller than other pellets. I understand that when you cast bullets using alloys like tin that the bullets are smaller than if you cast them from pure lead.


    • Brent,

      Interesting. Might that be from increased contraction as the material cools? One would think the manufacturer would compensate for that so that the finished product is uniformly .177, .20, .22, etc regardless.

      I suppose they might be smaller by design because their comparative hardness makes squeezing them into a breech more difficult. Still, don’t shooters in general desire a pellet that will get very “close and personal” with the rifling? That sounds like a good argument for pure lead and a tight fit,

      Michael


      • Michael,

        For what it is worth,… I have a TX200 and LGU, both in .22 and an M-rod in .25. The JSB’s slide right in with a nice, slight resistance and the HN’s are very tight. The JSB’s always have won out by a long shot. (in.22)

        The .25’s are the same, but I am feeding them out of a magazine,… so fit/feel is less noticed. JSB’s are doing 2″ at 100 and the HN’s are doing good to do that at 50.

        For what it is worth,….. Chris


        • Chris,

          I have a TX200 and two M-Rods (a Mk I and a synthetic Mk II), all in .177, and they all are quite accurate with just about any pellet I put in ’em, especially at the 10 – 20 meters I usually shoot at (paper and plinkiing). Like my FWBs and Weirauchs, they are delightfully “pellet insensitive.”

          As for Walthers, my two Walther air pistols are nice, and I like my Walther-branded Hammerii 850 and Umarex Lever Action VERY much.

          My Walther LGV Ultra, on the other hand, is a harsh-shooting, twangy piece of inaccurate junk and was so straight from the box. It is still my biggest airgunning disappointment. My wife bought it for me as a gift, so by the time I opened it and then got around to shooting it, it was too late to send it back to Pyramyd Air, but I do take every chance I get to badmouth it, LOL. I guess we all have poorly designed / badly made guns like that. It is what I imagine a 1990s Chinese breakbarrel must be like, except expensive.

          Michael


          • Michael,

            Nice collection you have going there! I respect every bit of what you said. I have pushed the TX and LGU out to 70 yards with good results. The TX even to 100 yards.

            All I know is that the tight fitting HN’s do not work at those yardages,… or even 30 for that matter. So rifling impression is not everything, but do agree that it is very important.

            As I learned awhile back,…. most any pellet will look good at closer ranges. Stretch it out a bit,… and things change pretty quick.

            Just sayin’,…… πŸ˜‰


          • A correction: the above piece-of-junk air rifle is a Walther LGV Challenger, not Ultra, and my wife tells me she isn’t absolutely sure (this was more than two years ago) it was ordered from P.A. or a different online store. All she remembers is that it was one of the prominent air gun stores.

            Michael


  14. I did not shoot pellets until older and do not remember what they were. I do remember the yellow and black cardboard bb tube as kid, around ’70.

    On pellets though, getting ready to head out and try the HN 31.02’s in the .25 M-rod., which have thus far not done that well. In loading the 3 eight shot magazines, I have run across at least twenty .22 pellets that appear to be HN 21.14 grain Baracuda Match’s,… as I have a can of them. This may explain some of the poor groupings. Yes, you can tell a difference, but if you are just plucking out of a can and not really looking, it could happen.

    The idea of the test today is to shoot them over a fill spread and see if they might prefer a lower start fill pressure. The test will be 5 shot groups. At some point the groups ought to improve, (if) fps is a factor. Gun pressure reading will be noted at the start and end of each 5 shot group. 50 yards will be the range.

    Yes,…. Gunfun1,…. I will put a few drops of RWS in the barrel prior to shooting. The theory being,… for those that have not read,… is that it will clean the barrel a bit. I do know at 30 yards, the first shot or two after oiling will be about 2″ high at 30 yards from the springers. That oil really speeds up the fps.

    Back later,…… Chris


    • Chris USA
      Are you saying that you had .22 caliber pellets mixed in with the .25 caliber Barracudas when you opened the tin of .25’s?

      Or you accidentally mixed some of your .22 caliber pellets in with the .25 caliber Barracudas?

      Yes .22 caliber pellets will load in your .25 caliber gun. No they won’t shoot good. Yes I personally know that. That’s what happens when I forget to take the .22 JSB’s for my Talon SS off my shooting table before I shoot my .25 Mrod with the correct JSB pellets. πŸ™‚


    • Chris USA
      Oh and if you look back at your notes and our conversations when you first got your .25 Mrod.

      That is exactly what I suggested for you to do. Chrony the gun and write down fill pressure every 5 shots. Then shoot at some paper and note group poi every 5 shots.

      But the idea behind me telling you that was to get you to shoot the gun and see for yourself that the POI will not change much at all for a given fill psi area. Only a couple shots at the begining fill pressure and ending fill pressure will be a little different the other shots inbetween. And really not that much different at all. It’s the end fill pressure when it gets low is where you start seeing the biggest POI change. And that happens quick. The POI will drop real low compared to your other pellets POI when your pressure was up in the powerband.

      So now we will get to see when you shoot the Barracudas if my prediction is right. Will be waiting to hear.


      • GF1,

        Not mixed for sure. They came that way. I was about 125 into a 200 tin when I noticed. The data was real solid as was my rest and steady. It showed all over the place between 3500 and 1350 fill. I did the test twice. 40 shots first test and 35 the second test. Will post results here in a few.


    • Chris

      Just found a black and yellow tube of Golden Bullseye BB’s. The price was 28 cents according to the paper price sticker. Not many BB’s left but will keep.

      Decksniper


      • Decksniper,

        Just think,…. if we had only known,….. all the bb and pellet guns and related ammo “back in the day” would have been worth a 401K or IRA today. Of course, it’s a wee bit hard to get a 10-15 year old young Gent to think past the next 10 minutes,…. let alone 50 years down the road! πŸ˜‰ I mean really,…. all the candy bars and Cokes take their “toll” on the ol’ paper route money,.. after all!

        Chris


  15. Test results,

    5 shots per group. 3500 start fill. Results will be in mm. as that is easier to type and less #’s.

    Fill/pressure at gun.

    3400-3150, 2900, 2650, 2400, 2150, 1850, 1550, 1350. (the end pressure of one, is the start pressure for the next group.)

    Group size in mm.

    Test #1,….43, 46, 35, 19, 60, 40, 27, 55
    Test #2,….40, 19, 52, 38, 23, 33, 54, N/A

    Beside not much consistency, the pellet skirts on some were noticeably thinner. No pellets were sorted in any way. Animals of any type were not used in the testing of this product. πŸ˜‰


    • Chris USA
      So it looks like your .25 Marauder doesn’t like the Barracudas. Don’t look like it has anything to do with fill pressure and the related velocity.

      My .25 Mrod shoots the Barracudas just as good as the JSB 33.95’s. With the exception of a flyer here are there with the Barracudas. And the Barracudas shot that way when the gun was still factory out of the box tuned and well modified as it is now.

      And something tells me you got a tighter barrel than I do. The Barracudas and JSB’s feel the same when I load them in my Mrod. And that’s with the single shot tray.

      And here’s a question. When you load either brand pellet how does it feel. I can feel the head of the pellet go past the o-ring in the barrel that seals the bolt. Then I feel the skirt for past the o-ring. And here is the last thing that I feel before I have the bolt all the way forward. I feel on last click of the pellet going past the lead of the barrel then I drop the bolt handle to lock the bolt for the shot.

      I had to replace that o-ring about 2 weekends before we did our 100 yard contest. I replaced it with a black one that is the same size that’s used in the Foster female quick disconnect. Like what’s on the end of your buddy bottle that you hook to the gun for filling. It was suppose to be one of those white harder ones but didn’t have one. I think it’s sealing my barrel and bolt with the black one better than the white one.

      And one last thing if I remember right the bolt is hollow in the front with a slot cut in it for the transfer port to flow air. I can’t remember what happens with that slot if you flip the bolt for left hand cocking. But maybe that is causing some issue with your gun grouping.

      Let me know if you remember what the bolt looked like.


      • GF1,

        The most I have used the tray is the “contest” that you and I did. Some before, but not much. Just looked at the bolt end, (real good),…. no slot, but it is “necked down” so as it would it hit the (inner) center of the rear/skirt.

        Yup,….. it do not like em’. Thankfully the JSB’s are working. I mean really,…. the groups I am getting at 100 are nothing the sneeze about. And like I asked,… and learned,…. they sure as heck do NOT group better the further out you get! πŸ˜‰

        Regardless of how they lead in,… or don’t,…. I will not be shooting them. (Lead Fishing Sinker Fodder)

        Sorry HN,….. they just ain’t workin’. And the skirts?,…. and the .22/.25 mix????



          • GF1,

            Good question,… one which I have pondered,…. From sorting the JSB’s and getting better groups,… I would have to say weight?, head size?, etc.. The .22/.25 mix is not a confidence builder,.. as is the noticeable visual difference in the skirt thickness. Something “slipping”?

            I can not say for sure. All I know is that I have given them the “200 tin try” and they just ain’t stackin’ up.

            Oh yea,… the test results included “flyers”, which lead back to head and weight.

            Who knows????


          • GF1,
            I had a tin of Air Arms 16.0 gr. that I had dropped on the concrete and a number of them had visible skirt damage. I decided to mix them with good pellets and see how they would shoot. I couldn’t see any difference in POI. I guess the air pressure is e ough to expand the skirt into the rifling and still maintain good accuracy.
            Bruce


            • BBB,

              Yea, GF1 might have something to say on that…… When I got the LGU from him, I also got some pellets,….. lets just say they got “a bit” beat up on the way. I sent the worst of the worst back to him,…(10) and he shot them,….. I will let him take it from there.


              • Chris,
                The results of your testing are interesting to say the least.Im trying to find the best pellet for my .22 Disco and the JSB 18.13 keeps coming out on top. We would never know if we didn’t keep trying new pellets. Throw away your chrony and see how hard it would be to figure out whats going on . Short of the gun itself, my chrony is the best buy and the most valuable item I have purchased!
                Bruce


                • BBB,

                  GF1 will tell you, the chrony is nice,…. but if you can maintain POI over a 100 fps spread, then why worry about not getting a 10 fps spread? I am still learning, but it seem to be stacking up that it is better to shoot for POI and then back up the data with a chrony. And, the chrony allows you to take your gun to a “trip to the doctor” to see how things are “ticking”,… VS,…. a year before. They are fun though. I love mine.

                  Just some more stuff to ponder,….. Chris πŸ˜‰


                  • Chris,
                    I can maintain the same poi over a 700 psi spread, but when hunting, the drop in fpe means you have to shorten your effective kill range as the pressure drops in the gun. The chrony can tell you where your power band is and you take your shots accordingly
                    Bruce


                    • BBB,

                      Very good,… and a very “re-fined” point. FPE at target! πŸ™‚ Despite POI.

                      Wow,… that is taking hunting to the next level. Very impressed.

                      Chris


                    • BBB,

                      You are way ahead of me,…. as I had not considered that yet as I am still “killing” paper and tin cans. I am getting there though. One thing,…. no more guns. Just learn the ones I have,… real good. That is,.. after all,… what I keep telling myself anyways.


              • Chris USA
                I sent this link I posted below to you a while back. You need to read it again.

                There is some info in there about the pellets being shipped. Maybe it will refresh your memory when you read it again.

                It’s the second article down when you click on the link I posted below to Bruce.

                Let me know what you think after you read it.

                And I’ll ask again. Any ideas why the Barracudas ain’t working in your gun?


                • GF1,

                  Did you miss the above reply? That is 100% my thoughts on the question. I do not know what to make of it beyond that.

                  As for the article, the skirts will expand and alleviate most, if not all issues. You proved that, he proved that, Bruce proved that …. that is good enough for me.

                  Super thick skirts may be an issue,…. but then again,… even if dropped,… they are not likely to get “too” beat up.


                  • Chris USA
                    So you remember in the article were he said he got to different types of pellets from PA and one was good and one was bent pellets. He mentions how well PA packs there pellet tins for shipping. He also explained how he thought it happened some where from when they came from over seas.

                    But his article definitely shows how bent skirt JSB’s still shot good.


                    • GF1,

                      Yea,… I said many moon’s ago that it is a miracle that they ever make it over here in the usual pristine condition that they usually do. PA does an excellent job in packing them for the “final” trip.



        • Chris USA
          When I was explaining what ithe pellets felt like loading I wasn’t talking about the magazine or single shot tray in particular.

          I was wanting to know what the pellets feel like when you load your gun.


        • Chris USA
          When I say lead in. I mean the chamfer inside the barrel where the pellet guides into the rifling when you load the pellet.

          The lead in chamfer is just like the crown at the muzzle end of your barrel.

          The lead I chamfer and crown are 2 very important factors in determining the accuracy of your gun.


          • GF1,

            I will have to check the “lead in” with the shot tray on the HN’s just to be sure. I can not tell a difference with the magazines. The bolt handle does allow a certain leverage advantage to any resistance.


            • Chris USA
              You know what. Maybe me and you should swap a tin of my .25 caliber Barracudas for yours and see what kind of results we get.

              Just curious to see what happens. Then we would know a little more if you possibly have something going on.

              First off 2″ groups at 50 yards with the Barracudas is ridiculous. They should group way better than that. I think if you get things figured out with the Barracudas that your really going to have good luck with the JSB’s.

              And I thought you liked figuring out this air gun stuff. So the Barracudas got ya huh. πŸ˜‰


              • GF1,

                Your persistence perplexes me. 2 different guns. Why is hard to believe that they work in yours and not mine. Not the first time we have heard of that in the air gun world.

                If we ever do a swap of something again, they yea, we could trade a tin. But till then,… I have 3 nice tins,… rather paper weights. In 50 years, they might be worth something as a collector’s item,… but, by then,… I will be,….

                Stick to what works and keep it simple,….. who was it?,.. that said that?


                • Chris USA
                  It’s ok I know you enjoy your .25 Mrod the way it is.

                  Somebody has said that before too about theirs. Glad mine .25 Mrod ain’t picky. Hmm. Maybe there is more to it than just the pellets. Now I got to figure out why mine isn’t pellet picky. πŸ˜‰


                  • GF1,

                    πŸ™‚ ,…. Yup, it is doing ok. But do not think I am done messing with it. πŸ˜‰

                    Snags on the arrow bit. More on that tomorrow. Out’a here.


                  • GF1,

                    The “snag” is how the barrel is made at the breech end. 2 flats to hold it in the receiver, transfer port flat machined in, and while not sure, the rear ring on the ID that holds the O-ring that that seals around the bolt.

                    I would have to copy all of that, and then adapt a 5/16″ tube to the front. A chopped barrel would be the quickest way.

                    So,… the M-rod arrow shooter may not be happening. πŸ™


                    • Chris USA
                      How long does it take to make each arrow? How much does each arrow cost? Can you re-use the arrow if you can find it after you shoot it?

                      If you finally do get it shooting hard enough to take a deer or whatever animal will it be legal to use to hunt? You know if you don’t use a broad head on the front of the arrow and use a target type point. You will need a pass through for the animal to bleed out and die. If you hit a vital orgin then a pass through probably won’t be needed. If no vital organ is hit and no pass through the animal could take a long time to die.

                      The reason a broad head is used is to create a big wound channel so the animal will bleed out quicker.

                      But back to loosing the arrow. That’s what’s probably going to happen if you do end up making enough power to kill something.

                      Oh and maybe I got ahead of myself. Maybe your just going to use the arrow for target practice or plinking tin cans? Then I guess power probably ain’t as big of concern and you might not loose as many arrows.

                      But it will be cool if you get it figured out.


  16. Funny, I just recently tossed one of those old, oily, green Benjamin tins. Seeing a tin of Crosman Premiers on the shelf is actually one of the things that got me back into airgunning following a 20-year hiatus since my youth shooting days when I had a 760 Pumpmaster and 766 American Classic . . . Optics are the other area where there has been a great deal of improvement — I’m very glad the days of the 4×15 standard are gone!


  17. Got short update on my .25 Marauder with the iscope phone adapter.

    In the few videos I have taken with it when I watch the video and have the sound on the gun makes a fairly loud ping when it shoots. Buldawg brought it to my attention. But I never heard the ping that loud before I put the adapter on.

    Here’s the interesting part. I shot it today with the iscope adapter still mounted to the scope but with out my phone attached. I had looked through the hole to see if I could see the reticle and full scope picture which I could. But I never shot it last week without the phone attached to the adapter.

    Guess what happened when I shot. And remember I’m right handed and the phone sets of to the right of the scope so the back plate sets next to my right ear when I shoulder the gun for normal shooting. I saw the back plate vibrate and heard a fairly loud ping. And it felt like I could feel the vibration in my ear. So that wasn’t going to be fun shooting anymore with that happening. I took a scope cleaning cloth and draped it over the back plate and shot. No more vibration and no more ping. So that’s how it will get shot from now on when I don’t use the phone.

    But the interesting thing is how much vibration and sound gets transfered through the gun and does make it to the scope. And that’s on a smooth shooting pcp gun. Could you imagine what a springer would be like with the adapter on it. And then the thought of what’s happening with the barrel and pellet getting those vibrations. It’s amazing that the guns will shoot as good as they do.


    • GF1,

      Out of room above. I also noticed that ping and it was quite pronounced, but forgot to say something as it was last minute before heading off to work. Glad you figured it out.

      As for the M-rod arrow shooter. A cut off barrel, say 5″, bored out to 5/16″ on the muzzle side, and a couple of set screws to hold in the 5/16″ tube would be perfect and require no screw in adapter. Those really eat up the ID of the adapter/cut barrel quick. Plus, with the cut and bored barrel, there would be little to no ID/OD transition.

      You do not have an extra .25 barrel laying around, do you? I would hate to chop a perfectly good one. If you see or hear of one, let me know. I think Buldawg said the .177″ are 3/8″ and the .25 is 1/2″ OD. Not sure what the .22’s are.

      As for the arrows, as long as I have the parts, a couple of guys at work can glue the fletching and glue the insert for the tip. The barrel would extend past the end of the air tube by a few inches. I just came from the Mom and Pop hardware store and they had, 5/16″ X .014 tubing in 3′ lengths and in brass and aluminum. The brass one was like 8$. Plus there is brake line,.. and then SS tubing, like McMaster Carr would sell. The Pioneer can shoot 385 grains with broad heads and group 2″ at 50 yds.. I should be able to do something close. I would have to take it over to an arrow shooters house to test it. I figure air port screw full out and striker in about 1/2 at least, for a full air dump.

      I need a .25 barrel!!!! I would go 30$ plus shipping. Just a guess, but the arrow stuff might run 20-30$.

      Today got blown pretty good, but tomorrow is wide open,…. thinking of another 100 yd. test with some sorted pellets. You set the “bar” at 9 at 13/16″,……Any other ideas for testing?


      • Chris USA
        I don’t have a extra Marauder barrel. I think Buldawg may have one. I think he’s got a different one for his .25 Mrod project. You might want to ask him.

        I don’t think there is much more you can do for the 100 yard shooting or even 50 yard shooting other than up the velocity. The .25 caliber pellets are going to slow in your gun.

        I think your close on velocity right now for the 31-33 grain pellets you have. But if you can get about 920 fps upto about 980 fps your going to get better results. You need to keep more speed on the pellet the whole flight.

        This is kind of hard to explain. But if you get the velocity right and a little on the faster side in that range of velocity I mentioned you will still have retained velocity out at farther distances. Think of a gun shooting a pellet at 50 yards then see what happens when you move into 15 yards.

        So your 100 yards is like that other guns 50 yard shots. And your 50 yards is like the other guns 15 yards. You need that velocity out at the farther distances to keep the pellet stable and so it’s also harder to get knocked off course. A little hotter velocity is your friend at longer distances. But you don’t won’t to break out above that subsonic speed. Then other things happen POI wise. Here is the hard part and without a chrony out at the 100 yard mark it’s hard to say. But if your pellet can start it’s flight as it leaves the barrel at 980 fps let’s say and ends it flight as close to 980 fps when the pellet hits you will have a more accurate gun. The heavier pellet should help the pellet maintain velocity longer. It’s just like looking at retained energy or fpe as we say at the target. But we want the velocity to be retained as close as we can at the target as it was when it left the barrel.

        That will give you a accurate gun.


        • GF1,

          Yup,… it all makes perfect sense. Kind of like what BBB was saying above, about keeping POI over a 700 spread, by adjusting holdover, I presume. But, that FPE at target is decreased. From 3400-2400 there was no drop, from that it dropped like 1″ and then to 2 – 2 1/2″ when I got to the 1550 range.

          So yea, as BBB pointed out, you can still hit as the PSI goes down, with adjustments.

          That would be a good test,…. what holdover do you adjust to?, as the gun PSI drops, and still maintain a good group, on target? Then, if you are going for a “chuck”, you have to move in closer,… as more shots are shot,….because,…. you now have less FPE at target.

          BBB has done some real extensive testing to get all of that figured out and make it work.


          • Chris USA
            Guess I need to refresh your memory again..

            Remember when I said one of my most favorite pesting gun is a pump gun.

            Well that’s why. I can control velocity for the distance I’m shooting at. Just got to know the guns holdover or under.

            And I don’t think you got what I mean about the velocity a pellet retains at longer distances.

            What I’m trying to say is if you can get a pellet to stay close to the muzzle velocity when it hits your target you have more chance of a accurate shot. Yes pellet design plays in as a factor as well. And that’s what helps.

            Remember the slower the pellet leaves the barrel the velocity will bleed off faster with a lighter pellet as distance increases. More chance the velocity will be closer to muzzle velocity with a heavier pellet.

            It’s that balance thing of velocity weight and design of the projectile for the distance your shooting. Remember BB saying what he thinks is a good velocity for target pistols. I think it was under 500 fps. And why? The pellet only has to go 10 m.


        • GF1,

          Scope clicks would be better. I do believe B.B. said that is the way that the “pro’s” do it.

          Now that!,… would in fact,… be some testing!

          Just have to get a scope that has 0% stiction. My spell check does not stiction,… did I get that right?


          • Chris USA
            Lea e the scope clicks alone. Hold overs is the way to do it for the shooting we do.

            But yes I have used clicks on the turret all through my shooting time.

            Holdovers are much more faster to do and your keeping your scope zeroed at your desired distance. When I get my scope clicks zeroed at the distance I want. It’s hands off of those knobs after that. Wind and atmospheric conditions make that change to much. So my scope stay zeroed. And I hold for wind and distance.



            • GF1,

              Yup, Yup and Yup on all the above. I did get “it”,… I had just been “pondering” on what BBB said and how he arrived at that.

              I think his words were,.. “interesting to say the least”,…. after some pondering,… I think that was meant to say a bit “unconventional”. πŸ˜‰ That be me! Really though, I was just looking for a quick and easy way to nail down the 31.02 Baracuda’s and see if they liked a certain fps range. If, they had done better,… I would have delved deeper.

              More power huh? I like that. Question for you to ponder,…. how much of that “tuning” is best done at a machine shop? How much can be done with a vice, drill and a little common sense?

              (Don’t answer that now). Just something to think about for the rest of those that do not have access to a machine shop.


              • Chris USA
                Pretty simple answer is yes with common sense being the important factor. Look at what’s in front of you. If you don’t feel comfortable about it then you probably shouldn’t do it then.

                Put this way in the old days it was a art to port a head on a race engine. It was done with dremel tools and air grinders and such. Now days its done one CNC machines. And another lost art was leading body pannels on cars. And now it’s done now with body putty.

                Well a air gun is the same. If you know how to handle the tool and use your smarts then yes it could be done without machine shop equipment.


                • GF1,

                  All good. I seem to do well with the do it yourself projects of all types throughout the years.

                  On a side note, I just ordered a FAB stock with riser, a 3 point spanner wrench and a couple of HD castle nuts. The stock I have, while nice,.. was giving me more of a “jaw bone weld”. I rotated the RAI offset up, but that looses offset. So, with the riser, I can have offset and a good cheek weld. The 3 point was because the 1 point was dinging up the nuts. The 3 point ought to spread out the pressure on lock down.

                  I also picked up a couple of “washers”,… that are real thin and will be used as lock washers for the castle nuts. I have had the stock slip after some use. They are fiber and should work well. We will see how well they work.



                    • GF1,

                      It just says FAB Defense and appears to be out of Israel. It also links the Mako Group?

                      I will send you some info. “on the side”,…. so as not to offend P.A..


                  • Chris USA
                    I would like to see it.

                    And if PA don’t sale it’s not competion to them is the way that works I believe. So it’s probably ok to post a link.

                    But for now yes I would like to see it.


                  • Chris USA
                    Ok just got the part number in the email you sent me.

                    It’s a AR butt stock.

                    So you are trying to get something to help your cheek weld. It does make the gun feel more comfortable when that is easily repeated.

                    That’s been my whole turn off on AR type guns. Like the AirForce guns. They are just not as comfortable to shoot as conventional stocks.

                    That’s what keeps me from changing the stock on my Mrod.


                    • GF1,

                      As you know, Dave’s RAI kit accepts AR parts, to a point….. And yes,… I know what you say about cheek weld, but,… it is nice when everything just falls into place time after time. Cheek bone weld is what I am after.

                      Really,…. the RAI kit is near perfect, for me. I am just “tweeking” it a bit. The gun adapts to me, not the other way around.

                      That has to help the overall picture,… and has,.. thus far.


                  • Chris USA
                    Yep cheekweld. Read my first response. That’s why I’m not crazy about the AR design where the barrel is in line with the butt stock.

                    I want a comfortable gun when I shoot. Them types of stocks are hard to make comfortable. And comfortable makes a difference if everything fits naturally.


                    • GF1,

                      Interesting,….. the AR RAI design suits me very well. Full left, and really a bit down, plus tilt, suits me to a T. But, with the afore mentioned, rise becomes a bit of an issue,…. thus the stock with riser. I have shot enough with the TX and LGU and the M-rod fitted with the RAI kit,….. the wood stocks are not even in the same ball park.

                      The TX being better than the LGU, due too the built in off-set. But, I will tell you what,… that LGU is out shooting the TX more and more. I really have to wonder if it is not due to the added muzzle weights. It did work well on the M-rod.


                  • Chris USA
                    Even in R/C flying more nose heavy is more stable.

                    Yes the weight helps.

                    Try your Tx with the gun closer to the trigger gaurd on the bench rest and see what happens.


                    • GF1,

                      Yup,… will do. I might just throw a 3# bag of rice over the muzzle end. As long as it does not interfere with the scope picture. Really?,…. why not? That would tell you real quick if weight would help or not. Of course, the TX does not lend itself to added muzzle weights,…. or any,… for that matter.


                  • Chris USA
                    Try the bag. And you won’t even see it in the scope. Try adjusting for different magnifications and you should get it where you don’t see the bag of rice.


                    • GF1,

                      πŸ™‚ Just my kind of experiment!,….. Waaaaayyyy out in “left field”!

                      Out’a here,…… Chris


                  • Chris USA
                    Don’t think it’s way out there.

                    Then try different locations on the barrel and see if harmonics change things. You know. That dreaded vibration thing that exists in more things than we can imagine. Controling it. Yep now that will be a interesting experiment.


      • Chris USA and BB
        How about a GPS chip in the arrow so you could find it or track a wounded animal? Would work for conventional bows and arrows too.
        Sounds like an idea for a business start-up
        Fido3030


  18. GF1

    Been fooling with some more pellets in the FWB . Found a couple kinds that truly suck .
    Today tried the GAMO Silent Cats . Loose and inconsistent fit . Really lousy .
    Absolute worst so far were Swiss Arms pointed . Would gag a buzzard .
    Shot some wadcutters today . Rws Meisters (very tight ) , H&N FMR in 4.49 and 4.50 . Could not tell difference in fit .
    None of them were worth much at 25 .
    First group today with Exact 8.44 was scary nasty , but later groups not as wicked . Think it is time to clean the barrel after the other pellets .

    twotalon


    • TT,

      Bad day at the “range”? We all have ’em. πŸ˜‰ Best of luck on finding something that works. A couple of those names would raise an eyebrow right off the bat,… but you never know.


      • Chris

        Not bad at all . No wind at first . Fooling with different things
        The pellets that I expected to be really bad were . Seriously . Shot the pointeds a couple weeks ago . Gamo today along with the wadcutters . Still playing .
        First group was with the exacts and nasty . No living thing of any size (small) would have made it out alive . After the other pellets, the exacts were tossing a couple out far enough to give a bug at least a 1 in 5 chance .

        twotalon


    • TT
      Sounds like your giving that FWB a work out anyway.

      Yep I never have had good luck mixing pellets in a shooting day. It seems to me that one day of shooting should be concentrated to one particular pellet for that day.

      Then by time I’m done I’m tired and eyes are giving out. But if I get that good knock your head off group at the end of the day. That will probably end up being a good one.

      Pellet testing takes along time and you have said that before. I think time needs to be spent on one pellet then move on. And not even just one day of shooting that pellet. That pellet needs to be tryed multiple different days.

      I found out that multiple things will give false impressions of a pellet. And ended up shooting pellets in a gun that I thought didn’t work at first. Has anybody ever mentioned that barrels do change through time. And with different temperatures. I guess I could keep going on. And I know you and me have talked back and forth throughout time about this. Just alot of things make a difference in pellet performance.


      • GF

        Today started dead calm, and I could shoot in a shadow without heating influence .
        Rifle or scope seems to be sensitive to this . Also stock screw tightness .
        Getting to test and learn the rifle take time and work . An indoor with controlled environment (adjustable) would be much easier .
        I really like to know a gun before I get serious with it . I also will shoot in wind to see how far I have figured it out, and when to quit .
        Also got the trigger over travel to adjust . Can’t feel it, but the trigger only moves a very tiny amount after it breaks . Feels like no movement at all .
        Lots of fun .
        Twotalon


        • TT
          Yep all good points. And all part of it.

          You bring up trigger over travel. That was real important with my .25 Mrod now that you mention it. When the shot breaks it’s a dead stop. If it moves .020″ I would be surprised. Had to go back and adjust second stage pressure after I kicked the tune up also.

          I’m thinking Chris seen it in the video I sent them of my Mrod with the scope camera. Buldawg mentioned it but my .25 has got some bump to it when it shoots. Maybe even more than a .22 rimfire round. But it’s a different type of shot cycle. All in all with weight in the shroud and my forward weight balance on the bi-pod I still need some trigger pressure to stabilize the gun.

          It really isn’t a heavy trigger but the pressure I need to apply, and when it stops it does what’s needed to control the gun.

          Yep just like BB and his target pistol stuff. It applies to all aspects of shooting when you think about it. How it feels when you hold it. Over travel, trigger pressure and so on. Then see what happens when you start tripling the 35 yard shooting distances. When the distances multiply multiple things need to be right. And yes got to get that figured out all before the gun is put to work.


          • GF

            Been doing mostly 25 yds so far . Got a pic of results of wind on a target that would get your attention . Not pretty.
            Still using the 3.5 oz factory pull . Can’t switch guns easy when you get your finger trained for a trigger . Had problems before . Kept pulling harder and harder . Even double checked that the gun was cocked and the safety off . Also shot without even felling the trigger at all .
            Switching guns with different trigger pulls is not an instant thing .

            twotalon


            • TT
              With you on switching guns and trigger pull.

              I make it a habit to shoot different guns in a days shooting and for that purpose. To try to be able to adapt with the gun being shot. That was something that I definitely learned. Was how to come into the trigger. The FWB 300 taught me that lesson.

              The 300 was so light it seemed you could breath on it and it would fire. And it was a two stage trigger setting. I had t be very aware of coming into contact with the trigger.

              I have said this before about rifles just cause I don’t shoot pistols much. But trigger stop and pull does need adjusted to a guns tune to get better shooting results.


              • GF

                So far, overtravel adjust does not seem to make any difference with this trigger . Simply no feel of it . No group difference .

                I could also try adjusting the muzzle weight position too . May not bother with it though .
                Bug hunting is not really the primary objective .

                twotalon


                • TT
                  Does the gun move when it shoots? Maybe you don’t need to worry about trigger pressure so much. But it is nice to feel it break.

                  Yes to the muzzle weight to I would say. Not only for holding things in position but for harmonics.

                  Well now the last sentence made me think. What are you using the gun for? I always think starling pesting and plinking when I think of you. Yes with this gun. Or other types of shooting?



                    • TT
                      So target #8 was how far the POI shifted to the left from you POA target #9.

                      What’s velocity is the Superdomes shooting at. Maybe need more vocity with them lighter pellets for the wind.

                      You can adjust fps right? Try more velocity? Maybe heavier pellet at same velocity. You know how that goes.



                    • TT
                      I don’t try to get wind to compare results. I try to get a pellet to give the results I’m looking for.


  19. GF

    Wind is always a problem . Have to choose best pellet under perfect conditions or best pellet under less than perfect conditions . Can be a big difference .

    twotalon


    • TT
      Yep. And found where I’m at now I always have less than perfect conditions. So I always have to find the best grouping pellet for the condition I have.

      So far I have done good. All the pellets I chose as best at the other house that had good shooting conditions has worked out here.

      The only one I didn’t try was the JSB 33.95’s at the old house. And conditions were better than I thought at the old house than here I found.

      But the pellets I chose out here for windy conditions also have worked in calm conditions here. Actually really good when it’s calm.

      So far so good for me with windy pellets in a gun and calm conditions here.


      • GF1

        Came up with something else….
        Possible contact between the air tube and the muzzle weight . The shape of the muzzle weight precludes simply looking for clearance . Testing with a thin strip of printer paper indicates that there may be contact when the air tube is screwed in to different extents .
        FWB says that the tube only needs to be tightened down to the point that the gun pressurizes .
        I am going to watch this . A couple strips of printer paper will go along for every shooting session to check for clearance .

        twotalon





              • GF1

                Depends on weather conditions . I don’t want to be looking at groups and P.O.I. changes when I have wind .
                Would probably be early or late in the day on the days that the wind will stop . Suitable length of shooting time would be fighting suitable amount of light .

                twotalon


                • TT
                  Those conditions would hard to come by for me.

                  Got a warm overcast day today. But the wind keeps changing. Cross wind from the left one time then the right and lime right now straight at me.

                  Got no choice but to take what I got. The 2 days off on the weekend goes by fast and not much free time before I go to work on the week days.

                  So if I want to shoot I can only get what I can now. So here I go. πŸ™‚


                  • GF1.

                    No rice bag on the TX today,… πŸ˜‰ ,…. got hung up with 25.39’s @ 70 yards.

                    3400 fill, 4 bulls per target, 8 shots per bull. 2 targets, 64 shots total. Filled once per target, or 32 shots / fill.

                    33, 71, 30 and 51mm..
                    39, 39, 32 and 46 mm..

                    Then the 100 yds., with the 33.95’s,….. 110 and 102 mm..

                    Not a good day. Did the bathroom tissue check at the bolt/breech seal to check for breech seal/O-ring leaks,….. no issue.

                    I did just shoot the 31.02’s, but 64 + 16 shots should have “seasoned” the barrel.

                    What you think? Time for a barrel clean?

                    If so, it seems that a bolt pull and pull through from breech might be best. I only have a coated flex cable for pull through,…. that won’t work for the tight load area/port on the M-rod though. I could get a rod.

                    Any ideas? All else seems as usual. The steady was REAL solid with the pistol grip rest. It was not me. All shots were 99% good. I did not try any silicone oil down the barrel.

                    Oh yea,… the last 2 groups of each 4 were head sorted,… so they should have been better.


                    • Chris USA
                      I know you got the bi-pod on the gun so I know your gun should be repeating can’t wise. And what I mean is the gun is not rolling over to the left or right. So yes I think you got your hold right.

                      But this is something I mentioned before. Remember how my target was a circle that was solid red when I did the 100 yard contest.

                      Remeber I made the size of the red circle to be just a little bigger than what my mildot I used for hold over when I looked through my scope out at the 100 yards.

                      What that allowed me to do was perfectly repeat each shot I made. I could see just a little red around the outside of my black mildot.

                      Target sizing makes a difference when you shoot if you the other things right with you and your gun. But that was the first thing I did before I started shooting at all. I drew 4 different size red circles on one piece of my white copy paper I use. Then I put it out at a 100 yards. Then I looked through my scope at each different size red circle with my mildot I would use for hold over. I found the one that matched my mildot the best.

                      So that’s how I came up with the 1-3/4″ red circle I used.

                      Try some different target circle diameters and match it to your mildot size at the distance your shooting at. That circle will end up being a different diameter for different distances. Try it. It works.




  20. GF1,

    Odd that you mentioned that,….. I did just that and it works nice. I am using all black rings and dots. Still playing, but for the lower light, it is working well. Plus, the illuminated reticle on the black works nice too.

    Really though,….. I got something going on. You know the groups I have got at 100 yards. Also checked all the screws,…. all good.

    Clean? About 650-700 pellets thus far.


    • Chris USA
      I know you ain’t going to like to hear this. And I’m for sure not putting Dave’s stock assembly down. But I think a test needs to be done.

      Remember when you got your synthetic stock .25 Marauder. I mentioned you should shoot it with that stock before you changed over to the RAI stuff. Have you really looked at the synthetic Mrod stock? Especially where the air resivoir seats in the stock. See the peice of rubber type foam or whatever material it is in the stock. That’s important. It helps isolate vibration from the gun when it fires. Exactly what it helps I don’t know. Like the barrel getting vibrations maybe?

      But sorry I think you now need to change back to the synthetic factory stock and give it a try. That will be very important info if it does change the way your gun groups.

      Then if it does next step would be to isolate the RAI stock some kind of way since I know you like it. Maybe that black bedliner spray inside the RAI stock. But you need to try the factory synthetic stock first. Maybe it won’t improve groups but maybe it will you know.


    • Chris USA
      Oh and I was going to say this and forgot.

      I had that Hatsan 44 QE pcp. Had some problems getting the groups I wanted. It was a synthetic stock and I new my Mrods had that isolater material in the stock. I put some in the Hatsan stock and it did improve the gun. And I made that single shot tray for it and helped also to get better groups.


      • GF1,

        All good points,…. However,…. I just grabbed the factory stock and there is not rubber pad!!!! Look at B.B.’s 8 part article, in part 6, he shows it. (I do not have that). That is also where the sling stud mounts. It sticks into that same cavity.

        I will consider what you said and maybe try to figure out if there is any “isolation” issue with the RAI stock. Oh yea,… looked at the barrel with real good light, several ways,….. looked real nice and clean.

        I am at a loss for as what to do next. Keep shooting I guess. Odd, ehh?


        • Chris USA
          And you knew this was going to happen. Persistent me again.

          You need to try the factory synthetic stock.

          And check and see if that isolating peice fell out in your box or something.. Maybe they don’t do that anymore?

          I’m going to email you right now so keep a eye out for it.


        • Chris USA
          Forgot one more thing.

          When you try the synthetic stock back on your Mrod. Look at the stock and see how there is clearance between the air resivoir and the stock. Then look how the stock fits the tube from the breech and back. It’s tight at that distance back. They designed it that way for a reason.



            • Chris USA
              You know that every shot the main tube changes shape which is the air resivoir. Add a aluminum stock that will change with temperature change. Bet that would make it hard to get good groups. You might get fair groups but not good groups.

              Persistent me again. Try the synthetic stock. What’s to loose? And you might end up with better groups than you are now. Just say’n.


              • GF1,

                Well, I did go from an A/C cooled 70 degrees to a hot and fairly humid 90+. With you being a machinist, you know more about the metal expansion and contraction stuff than I.

                I guess that getting the gun acclimated to the different temperature change,.. for say,.. about an hour,…. might help?


                • Chris USA
                  Yep that would help. But…

                  The resivoir will still change every shot. And the temperature outside will constantly change.

                  Did I mention I shoot from a breezway before? πŸ˜‰
                  Yes it is somewhat better contract led conditions than shooting outside. Shade and sun will make your scope change too.

                  Darn these air guns anyway. Not things easy is it. πŸ™‚


  21. Hello Mr. Gaylord. I can find no means of emailing you directly so I will just post here…
    Beings that you are the “Godfather” of air gunning, I would appreciate your input. I have read and studied your “artillery hold” and have tried various hand positions on the forearm but am not able to shoot consistent groups at 25 yards. I have a .22 calibre RWS 34P with a Hawke 3-9X50AO scope. I have owned this rifle for two years now. The stock screws are tight, the barrel was cleaned before use, and the scope mounts are tight with lock-tite. I have tried several 25 piece samples of the following pellets: JSB Match Exact 14.3g, 15.89g, & 18.13g, and RWS Super-H-Point and RWS SuperDomes, H&N Field Target Trophy 14.66g in .552mm, .553, & .554. I have also tried Crosman Premier Domes 14.3g. My goal is to shoot consistent groups of less than 1″ at 25 yards in order to dispatch house sparrows on my bluebird nesting boxes and feeders. The best of five 5-shots groups came from the JSB Match Exact 15.89g pellet. The first time I tried them the group measured .52″ to 1.1″ but on another day and sample the group measured .45″ up to 2.1″. I have done all of my testing shooting from a bench with Caldwell shooting bags. I tried placing my hand under the forearm and those groups were not as good as letting the forearm rest on the bag. I am holding the gun as loosely as I am able and still hold the cross hairs on the 1/2″ target.
    I can not adjust my scopes POI because my groups are too open. I know the RWS 34 is a great rifle and I have read many reviews of people getting 1/2″ groups at 25+ yards…I just can’t do it consistently and am a loss as to what else to try. I do have some more sample pellets: Crosman Premier HP 14.3g and JSB Match Exact RS 13.43g., and some more H&N FTT in .555mm, and some more RWS SuperDomes.
    I am about ready to trade this RWS 34P in on a PCP because I just can’t master the thing. I’ve shot firearms my whole life well but this thing has me stumped. Thank you for your consideration and help.
    Geo Johnson
    geo_gail@charter.net



      • George,

        Okay, I read your comment and now I will try to help you.

        Your problem is — you are FRUSTRATED!

        Please give me the opportunity to help you.

        First of all, stop resting the gun ON THE BAG. You will never succeed with a Diana 34 that way. A couple springers like the TX200 Mark III, yes. Never the 34.

        Next, forget the forearm! The 34 needs your off hand under the stock back by the triggerguard. I encounter this in some guns and it is so common that I start there now with all new rifles.

        Read and absorb this report:

        /blog/2015/01/diana-rws-34p-breakbarrel-air-rifle-part-3/

        Pay particular attention to how I describe the hold. I did that just for times like this.

        Next, I want you to tell me how high your scope is adjusted. That is, how high is the vertical adjustment, relative to the median point in the adjustment range? I think your scope may be adjusted too high and your erector tube is floating. One test for this is to remove the scope and shoot with open sights, if you have them.

        B.B.


        • Thank you Mr. Gaylord. I very much appreciate your help. I was just looking at my original order from Airgun Depot for this rifle on 3/19/2013. Here are the specs FYI:
          216-6023-kit RWS 34P .22 Cal w/Upgraded Hawke Scope and Lockdown Mount $319.99
          216-6023 RWS 34P Air Rifle- .22 Caliber Air Rifle $0.00
          230-0596 1in RWS Lock Down One Piece Mount for 11mm (3/8″) Dovetail Rails $0.00
          HK3017 Hawke Optics Sport HD 3-9×50 AO Scope w/ Mil Dot IR Reticle $0.00

          I am not sure how to verify the scope’s vertical adjustment and whether it is in the middle of the range.
          I did read your post on the rws34p and it sounds like the hold is dependent on the pellet?
          I do have difficulty holding the rifle steady if a rest is not used though.



  22. I am still awaiting your response Mr. Gaylord. I have not yet tried the new pellet samples. I don’t want to waste them before heading your helpful suggestions. I really don’t want to remove the scope to eliminate that as a possible cause of my bad groups but I necessary, I will. I took great pains when mounting it to get it aligned on the rifle.


  23. George,

    Now I’m part of the problem. Sorry! I get busy and distracted.

    Okay, the scope is on the rifle and has been for some time. Here is what I want to do. I want to see whether your scope’s erector tube is floating as a result of the vertical adjustment being too high. There is a simple way to test this. Adjust the vertical reticle DOWN 60 clicks or more. I want to put some tension into the erector tube return spring. If the adjustment stops before 60 clicks, just remember how many clicks it was so you can return to zero after this test.

    After that, shoot groups with all your pellets. If you have been shooting 5-shot groups you can continue doing that, but 10-shoit groups are better because they erase any ambiguity. Ten shots will be very close to one thousand shots.

    Shoot at the farthest distance you have — up to 50 yards. Ten yards will mask things that start showing up at 25 yards.

    The groups will be very low on the paper, but we are interested in their size.

    When you are finished, tell me what you got.

    B.B.


    • It has been some time since this post. It has been a hot summer and a busy autumn here in MI and here it is the day before Thanksgiving and I am just now responding to your request. I did as you suggested and adjusted my scope 60 clicks down. I printed out some new targets with two 1/2″ dots one 3.5″ below the other all on 1″ grids. I tried all of the sample pellets referred in the above post. Here are my results shooting 10 shot groups as you suggested. All shots were taken at 25 yards with very little wind.

      1st = H&N Field Target Trophy 5.55mm 14.66g groups are: 1.28″, 1.5″, & 1.13″
      2nd = JSB RS 13.43g groups are: 1.7″, 2.5″, 0.9″, & 2.2″
      3rd = RWS Superdome 14.5g group 1.25″ (only 9 pellets left)
      4th = Crosman Premier HP 14.3g groups are: 0.7″ (5 shot), 0.5″ (10 shots w/2 flyers), 1.3″ (10 shots)

      Based on the above results it would appear that the scope is NOT the issue. It also tells me that of ALL the pellets I have tried so far, the cheap CPHP pellets seem to group the best. I also had some fair groups previously using JSB Match Exact Jumbo 15.89g. One day I shot 5 (5 shot) groups of 0.52″-1.01″ and then a week later I shot 5 (5 shot) groups that ranged 0.45″ up to 2.10″.

      Another thing, I tried the hold you suggested by resting the rifle on my off hand just ahead of the trigger guard. Using this hold the rifle is so muzzle heavy I am not able to stay on target. It feels very uncomfortable to hold the rifle in this manner.

      Still not very happy with the groups I am able to shoot at 25 yards. I purchased the RWS 34P for the purpose of keeping the sparrows away from my blue bird boxes on my back fence line. I have four nesting boxes at 25-30 yards. I have made some kills at that distance but have had many more misses too.
      Happy Thanksgiving Mr. Gaylord and may God bless.


      • Geo791,

        You’re not happy with the Premier groups? They look pretty good to me. I would concentrate on shooting them.

        Slide the off hand out to where you feel the rear of the cocking slot.

        Have you tried shooting this rifle with open sights yet? Sorry if you said you did, but this conversation is spaced out over a long time.

        B.B.


        • Good morning Mr. Gaylord. Yes, I was much happier with the CPHP groups, even though I had two flyers from the 25 shots. I bought a 500 tin of the CPHP to continue trying to improve my groups. Those pellets surprised me that they shot as well, or better than, all the other higher priced pellets. I AM a perfectionist and maybe my expectations are too high for this rifle.

          No, I have never tried shooting the rifle without the scope. I have some vision impairment, who doesn’t at 70, and I took great care when I mounted the scope to get the reticles perfectly aligned to the rifle. I locktited all the mounting screws with blue loctite. I have checked all my stock screws and scope screws and none have ever loosened on me. I doubt I would be able to even see the 1/2″ bull at 25 yards without the scope. I always have it zoomed to 9X too.

          I will continue practicing my hold and adjust my off hand to the position you suggest. I know also that I must be very consistent with the hold, doing it the same each time. When I get poor groups then I change my hold. And so it goes…

          If you scroll up a few posts you will see our previous conversations.

          Thank you so much for responding to my posts. I know if anyone can help me shoot this RWS 34P better, it is YOU! Enjoy your turkey today and may God bless.

          George Johnson
          Otsego, MI


        • B.B.
          Got a warm (58ΒΊ) day so thought I should get out and shoot some groups with the CPHP 14.3g pellets. I purchased a tin of 500 following my decent groups with the sample. Well, sad to say but today my groups with those pellets were very poor. I shot (5) 10 shot groups. There was at least (1) flyer in each group. I was very conscience of my hold, my breathing, and my trigger finger position. I tried to hold the rifle exactly the same each shot and did NOT rest the rifle on the bag. Here are my results today:
          Group 1: 1.03″ with one flyer 3″ from the center of the group – no, I did not pull this shot
          Group 2: 1.10″ with one flyer 2.6″ from the center of the group
          Group 3: 1.48″ with one flyer 1.5″ from center of group
          Group 4: 2.10″ with one flyer 3″ from the group
          Group 5: 1.15″ with three flyers 2.0 to 2.5″ from the group
          This last group was wild. I hit the 1/2″ bullseye with 5 pellets, and 5 scattered 2.5″ left, 2.5″ down,and 2″ right & 1″ down – looked like a shotgun pattern!

          So, I have tried all these sample pellets, tried all of your suggestions using the artillery hold, and still here I am after threes years trying to shoot consistent groups with this break barrel RWS 34P.
          I have had difficulty separating the right pellet with the right hold. Just when I think I’m making some progress, I’m right back where I started. You are correct… I AM FRUSTRATED! This is probably my last chance to shoot outside here in Michigan this year. The temps are dropping and snow is a coming.

          Thanks for trying to help me with this rifle. I am at a loss.

          Geo Johnson



            • Siraniko
              Yes, I have checked all the stock and scope screws for tightness. I have never found that any have loosened. I used blue locktite on the scope mount screws and they have never budged.
              Thanks for the suggest though.
              Geo


              • Geo791,

                A remark I read on Facebook just popped into my head. The screws might be tight but the holes might not be tight. His screws were properly torqued but when he removed his rifle from the stock it turned out that the recoil had turned the holes into ovals allowing the gun to move ever so slightly during the firing cycle. He had to use brass cups to stop the movement.

                I can understand your frustration. At least you are in a position where you can easily sell it if you have grown tired of it. In my country that is not an easy proposition. I hope that you find a solution to your accuracy problem.

                Siraniko


          • George,

            From what you tell us it seems that your barrel is in need of a thorough cleaning with JB Bore Paste.

            Do you know how to do that?

            George, I am going to write a special blog for you next week, titled Why won’t my new gun shoot? Please read it carefully.

            B.B.


            • B.B.
              When I first received the RWS 34P I cleaned the bore before shooting it for the first time. That was over three years ago and probably around 1000 rounds. I don’t recall using anything to clean the bore but a little oil on some cleaning pellets and then just dry cleaning pellets. I have not used anything aggressive like Hoppe’s. I may have run some cleaning pellets through the bore a time or two since the first cleaning. I have read on PA that it is not necessary to clean an airgun bore if the FPS are less than 800. I don’t have a chronograph but I believe from what I have read that my RWS 34 shoots around 680-720 FPS with 14.5g pellets. I have also read that over cleaning can cause poor shot groups. Gee…what else do I need to learn about these spring guns?

              B.B., should I copy my posts from this blog to an area of more recent blogs to get more input?
              Looking forward to your post next week πŸ™‚ (Oh, btw, today is my 70th birthday)
              Have a great weekend!
              Geo


              • Geo,

                Yes, put your questions and comments on the current blog page here:

                /blog//

                They type of pellet also determines whether the gun h=needs to be cleaned. Crosman pellets are hardened with antimony and scrape off in the barrels of all guns. Eventually the accuracy suffers and you do need to clean with JB Bore Paste.

                B.B.


            • B.B.
              Oh, I forgot to answer your question. If cleaning with JB Bore Paste and a brass brush as demonstrated on PA in a video, then yes. I still would like your instruction though.
              Geo


              • Geo791,

                Maligayang Kaarawan Po! (Happy Birthday to you Sir!) May you have more to come.

                Siraniko

                PS Only a few are able to see these old posts updated by RSS. The current blog will bring more eyes on your concerns.


                • Siraniko,

                  Thank you very much for the birthday wishes. I was thinking that I should probably repost my issue to the current blog to get more input. I didn’t know if that would be acceptable or not but guess there would not be anything wrong with doing that. So you will probably see my posts here copied over to the latest blog area. Thanks for responding to my post today.

                  Geo


              • Geo,

                Read this:

                /blog/2006/01/cleaning-airgun-barrels-the-stuff-you-need-to-know/

                /blog/2007/04/dewey-one-piece-cleaning-rod-vs-three-piece-rods/

                /blog/2015/02/things-you-can-do-to-make-your-new-airgun-better-part-3/

                /blog/2006/02/should-you-clean-a-new-airgun-barrel/

                And this one tells you how to clean:

                /blog/2006/02/should-you-clean-a-new-airgun-barrel/

                B.B.


                • B.B.
                  Thank you for the links. I have read each and every one of them to glean any knowledge I can. When I purchased my rws I also purchased the rws cleaning kit which included the 3-piece metal rod, spring oil, chamber oil, and cleaning pellets & patches. I am looking forward to your blog next week especially for my rws 34p issue. Thanks again and have a wonderful weekend.
                  Geo


  24. Did not receive an email notice of your reply post. Today (6/27/16) I thought I would just check the blog and I saw your post…thank you. It’s been extremely hot, in the 90s, here in MI so I have not been outside to do any shooting. As soon as I get a reasonably cool day without a lot of wind, I will do as you have suggested and report back to you. Thanks for hanging with me on this issue. I may have to get a bigger target to keep the shots on paper after adjusting 60 lower .


  25. I haven’t hardly touched any of my airgun stuff for about 20 years or so (since I took up golf.) Now I’m all golfed out. πŸ™‚ I’ve been digging around in the attic and found guns I didn’t even know I had. I felt like Ralphie at Christmas. I also found probably 30 or so tins of old pellets. I didn’t know they oxidized like that. I even have cases of VL and Targetter .118s. Can you tell me any old pellets or tins that would be collectable? I’m like 25 years behind in the air gun world. Sure is fun catching up. My attic looks like a 1950/1960 Daisy store. πŸ™‚


  26. We had a family owned hardware store and lumber yard for almost 30 years; we also sold firearms, pellet rifles and accessories. I threw away countless old tins when they were empty but still have one green Benjamin tin with a few .177 pellets in it. This one is a memorable keep sake as it was the first tin of pellets our dad gave my brother and me to shoot out of his pump up Benjamin pellet rifle. My brother has his old pellet rifle and have his Model ’63 Winchester .22 that he taught me to shoot and hunt with as a youngster.


  27. BB, I have hundreds of old tins and cans of old pellets. Some are 40 to 50 years old. Years ago I checked somewhere (I can’t remember where) and they weren’t worth much. Where can I check now? Maybe I’m a millionaire. πŸ™‚


  28. Pingback: Adult Air Gun Contests

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