Conventional Red Ryder with Big Boy stock parts.
This report covers:
- Due diligence
- Daisy Adult Red Ryder BB gun
- What I have
- Changing the forearm
- The new forearm
- The buttstock
- An aside
- How it feels
- Where does that leave us?
Today we look at a solution for those wanting an adult-sized Red Ryder but not wanting to purchase a second gun. It’s the Big Boy Red Ryder stock from TGWMS.
I normally do not review prototypes. I have learned over the years that a great many of them, yes, most of them, never make it to the market. If they do they make it in a way so highly modified that the prototype bears little resemblance to what actually gets produced.
You can learn about prototypes on other websites. I like to write about real stuff that can be bought. In fact, I am so against prototypes that I railed against “Gen II” guns, because the producers were using the public as their testers. The Gen II guns fixed most of the faults brought out in the first iteration.
So, anyone with a bright new idea is risking a lot when I agree to review it in the blog. I will review it exactly as I would if I were paid to look at it without publishing anything. The difference being, I will publish my findings, because I need to publish five reports a week. I don’t have any “extra” time to look at things offline. Such is the case before us today. The Big Boy prototype Red Ryder forearm and buttstock from TGWMS is being sold on the TGWMS website at a price of $50. I will have more to say about that price in a bit.
Daisy Adult Red Ryder BB gun
Okay, Daisy already makes an adult-sized Red Ryder. We all know that the gun is a Red Ryder in every way; only the wooden buttstock was lengthened to change the length of pull from 13-1/2-inches to 15-inches. Now, 15 inches is too long for 90 percent of grown men, however in the case of a light gun like the Red Ryder it poses not much of a problem because shooters can adjust without the weight of the gun bothering them. No doubt Daisy got a room full of adults to try out buttstocks of various lengths before they settled on this one.
This BB gun (the adult Red Ryder) retails at Pyramyd Air for $53.99, as this report is written. The standard kid-sized Red Ryder is sold on the Pyramyd website at $39.99. That’s a difference of $14. Does that mean that the adult buttstock has to sell for $14? Of course not! You can’t buy all the parts for something for the same price as the thing itself.
So, if you want to sell an adult-sized buttstock for a Red Ryder, it can retail for $19.99, if you like. That would be the ballpark price where buyers would reckon that the additional buttstock was worth it. Fifty dollars, though, is way out of the market! The whole adult BB gun is only four dollars more.
But what if the aftermarket stock had features the Daisy one didn’t? Would they add some value? Maybe. If the aftermarket stock were unbreakable, that could add a couple dollars to the price. Maybe you could command $25. But $50? I doubt it. Unless it glowed in the dark, made coffee and filled out your income tax forms, I doubt anyone will jump on it for $50.
Now the price of the prototype is $50. That isn’t proposed to be the retail price. But since I don’t know what that is, I am commenting on all I have to go on.
If a lot of people did seem to buy it at that price, Daisy could always undercut by selling just the buttstock for their adult model. No doubt they don’t pay so much for one that they couldn’t afford to sell just that part for cheap to get you off their back. If the difference between the two guns is $14, I imagine the longer buttstock costs Daisy $2-3 to make. They could even sell them at a loss, like Honda and Yamaha did back in the 1970s, just to thin the market. Once you were out of their way they could go back to business as usual.
What I have
So I have this Big Boy Red Ryder stock. We already know that the velocity of the gun doesn’t change, and my Red Ryder averages 281 f.p.s. with Daisy Premium Grade BBs. The low was 276 and the high was 284 f.p.s., so a difference of 8 f.p.s. over 10 shots.
The accuracy ranges from 1.3-inches for 10 shots at 5 meters to just over 2-inches. It all depends on the BB being fired.
None of that will change with the installation of the Big Boy stock. The BB gun underneath remains the same.
Now this prototype is not what the production stock will look like, says the developer. This one is is molded in urethane, not 3d printed. The process makes nice parts, but it is too slow to support mass production. The production one will be molded in a plastic similar to products from Magpul or ATI but designed with a thinner wall to keep weight and cost appropriate to a Red Ryder. It will still be more durable than the standard wood. Okay, time to install it.
Changing the forearm
The instructions say to remove the screws and then both the forearm and buttstock will come off. No, they won’t. The wooden forearm on the Red Ryder has a metal band that has to be removed first. It comes off easily with forward taps from a screwdriver and plastic hammer but until it is off that forearm isn’t coming off.
The metal band around the forearm needs to be tapped forward and off. Then the screw can be removed and the forearm comes off.
The new forearm fit on exactly where the other one was. The schnable prevents the use of the metal band — nor is it appropriate.
The new forearm
The new forearm has a pronounced schnable. This is a feature that many like and few dislike. It was a good thing to include. Forearms with schnables don’t have barrel bands. I will say usually, because there is always an exception. But it looks better without, allowing the schnable and the curved shape to be the main features.
The Big Boy butt is held on by a screw and nut through the side of the sheetmetal receiver and a long wood screw down from the top. Remove both and the butt comes off.
The Big Boy buttstrock has a feature that seems nice. Both sides of the part that slides into the sheetmetal receiver are swollen up to provide a firm fit. Great idea — except …
It’s difficult to photograph, but in this picture you can see how the screw hole seems to be in a depression. That’s not really a depression. It’s flush with the sheetmetal receiver of the gun. There is a swelling on both sides of the place that slides into the receiver. The top of it is where the scratch is.
I tapped the cross screw head flat with a plastic hammer. And yes, I do see there is a small bit of room on the right side of the receiver.
Ooopsie! Where are the threads for the nut that fastens this screw?
I have assembled a removable windshield for a motorcycle. That’s lots of nuts and bolts and a number of stiff metal pieces, all fighting a huge piece of plastic that doesn’t want to align! I do know how to make this stock fit so the nut can be threaded on. But it involves bending some metal on my Red Ryder receiver, and I’m not about to do that. Not for a prototype!
So I left the nut off and, because of the tension on the screw from the new plastic hole, the cross screw remains in place. The Big Boy stock is on and it’s tight. How does it feel?
How it feels
Well, it feels long. The pull went from 13-1/2-inches to 14-inches with the Big Boy butt. It’s as long as I could want it to be. That 15-inch pull on the Daisy Adult Red Ryder BB gun would be too long for me.
The Red Ryder with Big Boy stock.
The gray plastic of the prototype is smooth to the touch but not particularly slippery. I will say this Big Boy forearm fits my off hand better than the wooden forearm on the Red Ryder. The shape is great!
Where does that leave us?
I’m sure when this Big Boy stock was conceived the thought was that someone would probably rather buy just a separate stock than to buy an entire second BB gun. That makes sense. And, there is interest in the adult-sized gun. Even some of you readers have asked me to test the Daisy Adult Red Ryder.
But — when the difference in price between the stock and the adult gun is just four dollars, it’s a no-brainer. Ain’t nobody gonna do it. Once again, fifty dollars is just the price of the prototype. We don’t know how much the production item will sell for.
Next, how much room for levels of discounts have been left in the Big Boy pricing structure? If Pyramyd Air or another large wholesaler were to buy it for sales to their dealers they want room to make a profit at all levels — large dealers, small dealers and thenselves. Right now Crosman is competing with their dealer network by selling direct to the public. Can’t keep your dealers happy when you do that.
The retail for the Big Boy needs to be around $20, so it needs to be produced for $3 or $4 at the max. The wholesale price (those buying 50 or more at one time) will be $7, the volume dealers (those buying 20 at one time) will get them for $10 and the little-guy dealers who only buy five at a time will pay $13. Any direct sales the manufacturer makes will make a profit over his cost, but at the risk of alienating your wholesale and volume dealers. That’s how this game works.
At $50 retail the sales for the Big Boy stock just aren’t there. They can’t be. People who pay $40 for a BB gun (or less) aren’t going to pop for another $50 for add-ons. Fifty-dollar add-ons go with $300 and up airguns.
Today has been an in-depth lesson in business for new guys. This is how the world works. Like it or not, these kinds of margins are necessary to remain active. The guys who jump in and try to be the lowest price in town are quickly gone. Sam Walton did know a thing or two about retail.
When you conceive of a new product, this is the sort of war-gaming that has to happen before any metal is bent or code written. Ninety percent of all new ideas should die during this process, and another five percent as you proceed. You don’t know what you don’t know, and finding out always comes at a cost.
44 thoughts on “Big Boy Red Ryder”
This probably should have been launched by Kickstarter to really determine if there are enough people who want the thing. With only 1/2″ difference between the Adult and regular length of pull I’d opt to either attach a slip-on butt pad or attach a rubber butt pad if I needed a longer length of pull.
When shooting my Red Ryders I never put the butt of the stalk on my shoulder. I use a hybrid pistol hold. A two hand hold with the off hand on the forearm. The stalk may set against the side of my chin but does not need to. It makes for a fast and accurate shot. That hold works for many shooting positions. Lounge chair is my usual setup.
Like many folks the Red Ryder is one of my favorite guns. CAREFULL YOU MAY PUT YOUR EYE OUT!
To me this topic has little to do with a Red Ryder.
B.B.’s given us a glimpse into the real world of aftermarket marketing. For seasoned airgunners I’m sure we have all had an idea of what the airgun market needs and what they will pay based on what it will cost us to produce plus a profit.
This topic has been a wake up call about that fallacy.
You win the prize of the day! It is nice to dream up “I would like see them…” when you have no concept what is involved. I have a pretty good idea what is involved and still dream things up.
Never stop dreaming. This wasn’t a criticism of this new stock — just a look at what the inventor faces to sell it.
I will. Sometimes it happens.
There is another way to look at about getting this stock.
Maybe someone has a modded Red Ryder that shoots real nice and they break thier stock for who knows what reason. And they don’t want to buy another Red Ryder to get the stock or take the mods off thier old Red Ryder. And for some reason Daisy don’t sell replacement stocks or if they do they are almost the cost of the synthetic stock your reporting on today.
And the synthetic stock and fore stock have a little more character then the Red Ryder stock. Plus you could paint the synthetic stock I guess and get a more one of kind look.
So as far as cost goes maybe the person selling the synthetic stock did a little more research and found that he can sell the stock for the price he wants. Plus maybe he doesn’t want a middle man involved with selling his stocks. You don’t need a air gun source to try to sell something now days. You have the internet. Why would you want a company that sells stuff for anyway involved. When you do that you just lost all your profit.
Matter of fact somebody we know did just that with another kind of air gun stocks and adapters. After he let air gun company’s carry the products the price wasn’t realistic anymore. Then what happens. Nobody buys them anymore. And now he doesn’t own that company anymore. Which was probably a smart decision after what went on.
If I was making aftermarket stuff I sure wouldn’t be having someone else selling my product. I would swim or sink on my own.
That is certainly a different way to look at this. Thanks,
There’s always more than one way to look at things. 😉
Today’s topic is of interest to me. I have one of the Adult Red Ryders. It came packaged with a standard sized RR. I’m 5’10” and find the length of pull to be just fine. The butt stock is not only longer, but is also thicker with a reduced thickness where the receiver attaches. All in all, the Adult Red Ryder is a nicely balanced gun.
I liked it well enough that I have several more (Adult Red Ryder only) on the way from Camping World/Gander Outdoors. The current sale they are running gets them to my door for $41 and change. Each. Throws quite a curve at buying the plastic stock and forearm set for $50.
I see on the TGWMS site that there will be several color choices available when production starts. Additionally, if you buy the prototype, you will receive a production set down the road.
Hey there friends and neighbors,
I have been out of touch all this week. I am certain quite a few here are thankful. I had rotator cuff surgery on my left arm Monday, so i am going to have to rely on you guys to take up the shooting slack.
I am thrilled by the results you are getting with that HW30. I can see a Vortek kit showing up at RRHFWA in the near future. It could possibly be THE solution I have been looking for.
I pray for your speedy recovery.
The HW 50S is on its way! 🙂
LOL! I look forward to that one also!
Hoping you have a complete rehab and full use of your left arm and shoulder. You just had a prayer come your way.
Me too on BB getting and testing a HW50S. Hoping he will do an accuracy test comparing before vs after a Vortek is installed. I do think the HW50S will benefit even more from a Vortek upgrade, maybe even the cocking effort.
The HW50 just may be the ultimate. It is smaller and lighter than the 95 and with the Vortek may be “just right”.
I am wanting to calm my Tomahawk down, but it will probably never be that light. We shall see where it goes.
RidgeRunner, praying for you, man!
I will be putting you in my prayers for your speedy recovery.
Take care and do what the Dr. told you and you will be shooting that ’06 in no time.
Ouch. Hope your getting better. I dislocated my left shoulder years ago. It always feels a little funny if I do something the wrong way. Usually I feel a little pain and I know it’s time stop what I’m doing. Well I was changing the blades on my tractor mower about 2 weeks ago and one blade the bolt was super tight. Yep I pulled my shoulder or something. Still getting a sharp pain if I move the wrong way. But definitely better than it was.
Maybe you can shoot your pcp’s from a bench rest. They don’t require as much effort to shoot if you got a electric pump.
In my prayers and a few Lead pellets will be offered to the Nimrod Alter for your prompt return to the fields and range…once these rains end.
Get a full functional recovery!
Got that CO2 2240? Takes just one hand and maybe your knees to operate.
We spend more than $50 in upgrades for Crosman 1377 and 2240 pistols all the time. Steel breeches, grips/stocks, scopes. The difference is that we perceive that the base gun that we’re starting with is “worth” the cost of upgrade. Most of us don’t see that in a Red Ryder.
RR–speedy recovery. And check your PO box. Theres a get well package in there.
Derrick! I opened it last night! I thank you so much!
As most of you have no clue, Derrick has sent me a collection of antique airgun pellets from the UK and Spain! I feel certain they will find place to live RRHFWA! He also sent me an adapter!
Vintage pellets for your vintage guns. Mountain biking —at least the crashing part—did a number on my rotator cuffs as well. Speedy recovery. Hopefully cocking springers is part of the PT.
It will be. 😉
First, the color is hideous, and the contours are equally ugly. Ugly does not sell.
Second, the designer doesn’t “get” the Red Ryder. Above all the Red Ryder is about a bygone era (a la in “Christmas Story”) when boys’ toys were made of metal and wood. The durability and feel of these upgrades are irrelevant. Parents buy their kids Red Ryders because of their nostalgic appeal. No Marshal fought off a Black Bart with a plastic BB gun, ever. (I’m confident some buyers are even disappointed with the plastic trigger the Daisy sports.)
This product completely misses the mark by misunderstanding the Red Ryder.
Ditto. For fifty, I want wood please. A Winchester with a plastic stock please dont… but it is wise to piggy back on a product that that is long lived, sometimes!
I agree with you; my Red Ryder is the anniversary edition; it has a classic look, and shoots great. I would not put this new stock on that gun. =>
The TGWMS dot com website states that for your $50 prototype purchase, you get TWO stocks; a prototype first, followed by a production unit once they become available, with free shipping on both. I presume you would be offered your choice of color in the production unit. This would appear to be an advantage only if you had two Red Ryders that you wanted to upgrade.
When you scroll down, you can see several other furniture sets with extra accessories, set to sell for lower prices. It appears that he has already set the prices for all the items. The price for the basic furniture, buttstock and forearm, is $24.99 (plus shipping, I presume). When you click the BUY NOW button on those, you are taken to a page stating that they are not yet available, and offering a 10% coupon.
It appears that he is trying to sell off some of his prototypes to help recoup development costs.
If the screw for the buttstock was really tight, and the connecting section is too thick to accept a nut, is it possible that the prototype screw hole was meant to engage the threads of the screw without a nut?
Anything is possible.
Interesting blog BB!
I like designing and making things – I dream a lot 🙂
Occasionally I will make small “production runs” of an item (since most of the time/cost of making something is in setting up the tooling) and make them available to coworkers and people I know who share my interests. That approach kinda offsets costs of things. Never considered going into the business mass producing and selling stuff – in truth, I don’t have the attention span LOL!
I do have a couple of patentable things I am working on though. I’m too old to be bothered marketing, manufacturing and selling so I’m thinking to sell the idea and prototype to an existing company. As a better mousetrap for an proven requirement I think that there will be enough interest. I have no idea as to how to go about this, there could be a lot of money on the table. Maybe you could write a blog about how to sell ideas.
The subject of Gen 2 products is a delicate balance. I get upset when a company releases a half-baked product to generate some quick cash and get the consumers to do their troubleshooting and testing.
Gen 2 products can be a result of the company listening to customers and incorporating changes or be legitimate improvements to a product. Often a company will abandon a product in favor of a new model, I think it shows good intentions if the company maintains backward compatibility to the earlier design while still incorporating improvements in the next generation models.
An example of that is FX and the Impact. The original model was a high-end (30 fpe in .22) pellet gun. The demand for larger calibers and more power resulted in the MK2 which is a (50 fpe in .22) pellet and slug gun. Further customer demands to shoot heavier slugs resulted in the MK3 which is a (70 fpe in .22) slug gun that also shoots pellets.
People berate FX for so many changes but the demand is driving the development and in most instances the older models can be upgraded if desired.
Done rambling, chores to do. Have a great day eh!
Unfortunately, unless someone gives me one I will never own an Impact. I will just have to tinker with what I have. 😉
I think gen 2 and even gen 3 should happen. If a company is really trying to improve thier product and succeed I’m all for it.
Heck look at the TX 200 and even the Marauder rifle. How many variants of the Marauder is there now. And like you say. They have renamed them instead of eliminating successful ones.
The way I see it with the air gun manufacturers releasing the next so called up graded model is they are trying. And of course they all don’t get it right on thier next generation gun. But that next situation with that is no matter how well that manufacturer did on that next generation gun there will be people out there that don’t like what they see.
It’s a catch 22 in a sense. Some one wins. Some loose. I don’t see that ever changing for a long time. But what is nice at least we have the opportunity to say what we would like in the product..
I’m happy that the air gun manufacturers are brave enough to take initiative to try to improve thier product. If they didn’t just think what kind of choices that we might not have available today.
Yep it all can get complicated can’t it.
LOL! LOL! LOL!
Yup, chores 🙂
Lots of yard work to do…
– 1/2 acre of grass that won’t quit growing
– a 16×24 foot garden that is going nuts (tomatoe plants are 7 feet tall!)
– several large poplar trees to cut down (need to mill, resaw and plane a bunch lumber for a project I’m working on)
…You know – fun stuff 😉
Hey shootski, found an interesting site with lots of basic details on air pistol shooting (just what I need – more stuff to read LOL!)
Tea is done, back to work!
If you think you have an idea that’s patentable, I will try to post some links to some basic advice from patent attorney websites. You could search yourself in the meantime, but I would steer clear of websites that make big promises that are not attached to a reputable law firm. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Thank you all for your prayers and well wishes. I am hoping to be back at it in a few weeks.
Hope you do get back to doing good soon. Just keep on chug’n on.
From what I know of you your going to be just fine. 🙂
Added you to my regretfully expanding prayer list; Mrs. had rotator cuff surgery about 15 years ago. It was no picnic. But her arm and shoulder are working well, so have to ensure to stay out of frying-pan swing-range when I annoy her.
Speaking of medical issues. I wonder how Chris USA is doing. He said he was going to be out for a bit. Hope he is doing ok. I haven’t seen him post any yet.
BB, a mold cost allot of money, amortization costs..with a wood product you can have a catalog of designs to choose from. Checkering is Xtra.
The discussion makes me think that my suggestion of an adult Model 25 with a rifled barrel using led shot and a higher output power plant FROM THE MANUFACTURER makes more sense. Economy of scale would come from a whole unit made. Adding aftermarket stocks and fore stocks seem to be economically ify. However, maybe there is a niche market for such things?
The maker need to replicate that in wood. Who would trade their OEM wood stocked RR for plastic?
Years ago when the Ford Taurus was new, you could buy one assembled for $20K or buy all the parts for $100,000 and build it yourself!
Yep. That’s about the size of it.