Daisy model 25.
This report covers:
- What to do
- BBs
- The point
- Daisy shot tubes made for lead air rifle shot
- Swage “ironed” out
- Daisy shot tubes made for steel BBs
- Why it matters
- Summary
Nearly a year ago I started what I hoped would be a series about the Daisy model 25 BB gun. You guys seem to like the oldies and the 25 is a gun that has a lot of interest. The title of the first report was, Daisy model 25 pump BB gun: Part One. As I was testing the gun’s velocity for Part 2, the powerplant broke. I won’t go into the particulars, but the break was one that sometimes happens to older Daisy BB guns and this one is over a century old. It’s the gun pictured above. This kind of break is very hard to fix. Parts don’t exist and parts guns typically have the same break, so they’re no good.
What to do
I stopped the test that day and wrote about something else — all the time wondering what I might do to continue the report series. Yesterday I pulled out several other older 25s, hoping to restart the series. And now you need to know something about BBs and the guns that shoot them.
BBs
Originally BB guns shot round lead shotgun shot of the size BB. A BB shot was larger than B shot (0.17-inches) and smaller than BBB shot (0.19-inches). It is nominally 0.18-inches/4.572mm in diameter. I say “nominally” because shot used to be made by dropping molten lead down the inside of a tall tower and allowing it to form into a ball as it fell. It was then sorted mechanically and, if it passed through the right screen, it became BB shot. All the shot that formed with a tail like a raindrop was called swan shot and was sold to wildfowl hunters who wanted shot that spread rapidly.
The shot tower in Baltimore.
In the early 1900s Daisy created air rifle shot that was sized 0.175-inches/4.445mm and used less lead. It also made their BB guns shoot faster because the smaller shot was also lighter. The Daisy 25 I was testing was made around 1920 and was made to shoot lead air rifle shot.
In the late 1920s Daisy went from making guns that shot lead shot to guns that shot steel balls they also called BBs. They reduced the size from 0.175-inches to a size ranging from 0.171 to 0.173-inches/4.34 to 4.39mm. Steel BBs fall into this size range today, which is why I get so angry with retailers selling BBs packaged as 4.5mm.
The point
My point today is when BB shot went from lead to steel, little boys didn’t know or care about the change. They just found ways to acquire BBs from wherever. And they shot them. So Daisy model 25s with shot tubes made to shoot 0.175-inch lead air rifle shot were now shooting steel BBs. Let’s see why that’s a bad idea.
Daisy shot tubes made for lead air rifle shot
Daisy model 25 pump guns have 50-shot forced-feed shot tubes. The shot is pushed down a tube to the breech of the barrel by a powerful spring. The shot tubes made for lead air rifle shot have swaging (pinching) on both sides of the breech end of the feed tube to stop the shot from rolling into the barrel uncontrolled.
The pinched area (arrow) stops lead shot from just rolling into the breech at will. it’s also pinched in on the opposite side. All it does is slow the ball down; the mechanism inside the BB gun takes care of feeding the BB into the breech.
Swage “ironed” out
When thousands of steel BBs are fed through a shot tube designed for lead they slowly smooth (iron out) the swaged metal that’s supposed to slow them down. Then the shot tube becomes useless for lead shot because it doesn’t feed right. But the bore (barrel) of the shot tube is still sized for 0.175-inch balls — not 0.171-0.173-inch balls, so accuracy and velocity both fall off.
Daisy shot tubes made for steel BBs
When the change was made from lead to steel, Daisy soon discovered their old way of making shot tubes no longer worked. So they redesigned the tubes with a thin wire spring to stop the BBs in line with the true breech instead of the swage.
A shot tube designed for steel BBs has a thin steel spring to stop the BB in line with the hollow rod that pushed the BB up the barrel when the gun was fired.
Why it matters
My Daisy 25 broke but so what? I have other Daisy 25s that also shoot lead air rifle shot. But there is a huge “however.” All my old Daisy 25s have previously been owned by little boys who shot steel BBs in them. So they no longer like to feed lead air rifle shot — not that I have any I’m willing to use. That vintage shot is now a century or so old and is collectible in its own right.
I do have other lead shot, though. In fact I have a lot of it from shooting zimmerstutzens. And yesterday I was trying my 8 different sizes of lead shot in my half dozen lead shot tubes. Some rolled right through the swaged spot that isn’t there anymore. Maybe one or two balls stuck at the swage but they were knocked through when the next shot hit them.
All of a sudden I no longer had a Daisy 25 that shoots lead shot. Instead, I had a blog report! That would be this one.
Summary
Sometimes the bear eats you and leaves nothing behind. You have to respond to that and hope there are no more hungry bears.
Tom,
So there are no replacement shot tubes being offered by anybody? Seems like there is an untapped market waiting for somebody.
Siraniko
How many of these rifles are actually left, used by their owners, AND willing to pay the cost of a custom/semi-custom part? It would probably be cheaper to just buy a new production one.
Siraniko,
I’m working on a solution.
BB
B.B.,
IF the shot tube has had the two swaged points JUST ironed out truly and not worn away then a tool/jig should be able to be fabricated by a skilled Machinist to re-swage the tube back to specification.
I think you know someone to call to get a read on the possibility.
I think someone could make a nice living making Lead bb shooting Daisy 25s work once more and able to be accurate again to boot.
shootski
BB,
You keep a writin’ and I keep a learin’…I love reading these kinds of reports! 🙂
Blessings to you,
dave
Here’s a potentially dumb thought: why not install a spring to hold the BBs back like the new 25s have? The barrels being made for larger lead BBs will not jam up with the smaller steel BBs. Accurracy may not be as good, but these are not exactly FWB 300s, either.
Here’s another dumb thought. If the stage has been worn out by the passage of steel BBs, but the gun otherwise works, is it essentially a single shot?
Oh, another:Could a neodymium magnet, cemented into just the right place act as the mechanism by which the BBs are held back?
I better get to bed before I offend my own sensibilities. Good night and good luck.
RG-
I like your single shot idea. At least as far as BB being able to test old Model 25s with lead shot vs steel BBs.
Utilize them like muzzle loaders like the current Model 499B. It would then be a simple matter of keeping the muzzle above horizontal while checking velocity and precision of the two types of projectiles. I think it would be worth a try.
Roamin & pac
Single loading through the muzzle is a great idea if lead BB’s will fall down the bore. It sure beats single loading the 50 shot spring tube. Guess the target needs to be above the shooter.
If accuracy is the only objective the No. 25 is not interesting. But for me it’s all about reminders of my boyhood with my long gone 1940’s No. 25. So much so I bought a new one a year or so ago. For whatever it’s worth it is most accurate using Dust Devils.
Lots of good history today about BB materials and sizes.
Deck
B.B.
bb guns have never interested me. I believe a well practiced 12 year old spitballer or Dennis the Menace and his sling shot would be more accurate. As you have preached, without accuracy you have NOTHING!
When the steel shot was introduced, how did it shoot in the larger for lead designed barrels? All smooth bore I assume? I would imagine that there might be significant blow by with the smaller projectile? bb guns have so little energy to begin with that any blow by would be a significant waste of energy.
-Y
Yogi,
I was pondering what you said today as I was plinking with my old Daisy Buck model 105 BB gun.
My Red Ryder clocked 300 fps, but the Buck only hits 260 fps.
True, these guns don’t have the accuracy of their rifled counterparts, but they’re accurate enough for fun.
I was lining up a row of cans on my 15-yard range and seeing how quickly I could take them down.
It’s a game my brother plays with his Red Ryder on his farm in NC.
Since he has lots of friends over often, I send him my Red Ryder so they could shoot two at a time.
They shoot offhand for the fastest time to take down 5 cans at 20 yards, regardless of the number of shots.
They have a ton of fun, and to me, anyway, that’s what BB guns are all about. 🙂
Just my thoughts,
Blessings to you,
dave
I have sometimes wondered how those mechanisms work. But never really tried to figure them out. I know that when I remove to check and replace the shot tube on the Daisy No 25 here, there are usually two BBs that will roll out of the bore when I tilt it down. Does the hollow tube that pushes the BBs into the bore only come out during the shot. Or, does it do it’s thing when the gun is cocked?
Elmer,
https://www.pyramydair.com/article/A_look_inside_the_BB_gun_powerplant_August_2009/64?srsltid=AfmBOoq_RUEN9CTUJh7QZaDT0Et5Ol2WUPIo-1h8LzWUdAzHlDn0xUSI
That’s a modern BB gun that uses a magnet.
BB
Here is more.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/02/the-bb-gun-powerplant-how-it-works/?srsltid=AfmBOoqWWUkIltQQu7aknnkrYZTSLUPGn8pDA3NnTf3k0vc8EjJXFvpE
BB
Thank you vewy much BB. Those two vewy intewesting articles explain it well.
Elmer,
An interesting tidbit. When I was rebuilding my Daisy 1894 lever action, I found that there is at least three different bore diameters used over the years in that air tube. Got smaller to reduce the FPS for a kinder more gentle air rifle to avoid law problem I imagine. May be the same with the Model 25.
My newer version does not seem to half the power I remember when shooting an older one. Might be a weaker spring too.
BB,
If you should really do as either shootski or Roamin Greco recommend.
If, as shootski suggests that the swages had been ironed out and not worn off, a decent machinist should be able to re-swage this.
Using the 25 as a single shot for lead zimmerstutzen balls as RG is suggesting should also work.
Fortunately, you, others and I know that Yogi is wrong. Daisy and other companies have brought out some extremely accurate bb guns. I can easily shoot carpenter bees at 5 yards or so with my Daisy 99. In a skilled shooters hand, a Daisy 499 can place ten shots in a group that can be covered with a dime.
I am curious about the Diana 30 Neo, not that cheap imitation called the Oktoberfestgewwhr. I would not mind getting one of those to move into RRHFWA.
BB,
Please do not forget about the 3622! I for one am most interested in it and the possible 3677 that I do hope that TCFKAC will bring out. There are a few of us that wishes TCFKAC will take a slight step back and bring the Discovery and the Maximus back also.
We can dream, can we not?
You’re gonna enable FM into a 3622 at this rate, except it would be in .22 – and it would have to be upgraded with the steel breech. Then again, not to make anyone feel deprived, the Maximus Brothers are enjoyable enough so that FM has to ask himself, what is the point of acquiring a 3622? Well, if it is fun to shoot, that would be a good point.
FM,
You would be a fool to buy a 3622 with your collection of the Max Brothers. Although from my research the 3622 is more efficient, there are what I would consider other factors to apply.
One thing is the receiver/breech. Though it is easily upgraded, this also increases the overall cost of the air rifle. I myself would try this for a time with the plastic receiver/breech, but eventually I would upgrade such.
Another thing is the lack of the HPA gauge. Though most airgunners tend to ignore this, some others are most dependent on such.
There are other caveats which may or may not be readily grasped. Perhaps your money would be better spent with upgrades that are available for the Max Brothers.
Having said all of that, I would like to have a Discovery, a Maximus AND a 3622/3677 here at RRHFWA. I will be happy to buy you a 3622 and trade it for the Max I sold you.
Appreciate your disabling FM’s enablement, RR. Generous of you to offer that trade but will pass, based on your WOW – Words Of Wisdom. 🙂 The next “lady” to come live and dance at Casa FM will be one that packs a ‘lil more punch than the existing collection, likely a PCP.
FM,
Is more punch really needed? Unless you are shooting over fifty yards, those Max Brothers have more than enough umph. Now you might want to customize one of those Maxes. Maybe a new LW or Sub MOA barrel. With the addition of a regulator, you can up the fill pressure, increase the shot count and flatten out the shot curve. The power can be upped a little bit. A longer bolt handle can make them so much easier to cock. Upgrade the trigger some.
If you just have to spend some of those greenbacks, upgrade one or more of the Max Brothers. There is so much that can be done to them. Also, they are so easy to work on and/or upgrade.
Are you sure you do not want to trade one of those for a 3622?
RR, you have successfully convinced FM not to separate the Max Brothers in order to bring a 3622 home. Nothing says one might not find a home here for purposes of enticing some of the younger ones in FM’s family and/or friends’ group into the world of airgunnery.
FM,
Just never forget that there is a home for one or more of the Max Brothers here. 😉
I wrote Daisey about a year ago about the Model 25 suggesting that an ADULT MODEL
I don’t know what is happening to my comments. This is the third and last try today.
I suggested, a few months back, that Daisey consider an ADULT MODEL 25 in the full sense of the word: Lead shot ONLY, twice the f.p.s., full adult stock, better iron sights. The kind of multiple shot BB rifle that would be able to chase off a visiting racoon by derriere shots, the existence of which would become a wild-fire rumor in the ‘coon community that the Franke house is NOT a nice place to visit.
I have pieces in the arms locker that could definitely end the life of an unwanted visitor to the insulation-filled attic of the house. The problem is that one can’t kill such a critter lying on top of TWO FEET of chopped fiber glass insulation across the length or breadth of the attic. How does one plow through two feet of itchy glass fiber from the ceiling hatch to the victim without missing a floor/ceiling joist and end up with a leg in the ceiling of the living room or other room of the house? Or, a rotting body smelling and liquifying its way into the living areas near the ceiling repair? Offing a pesky visitor is best left to the backyard, not the spread of the attic covered with glass “snow.” But a few “butt shots” might convince such a visitor to vacate the new “apartment?”
On the sporting side, having an accurate more rapid-firing LEAD round rifle would be a fun addition to the arms locker. All my current air arms are single-shot springer save for the Octoberfest gallery gun and my Daisey Model 25 (that I can’t shoot into the STEEL Champion trap (’cause, of course, “You’ll shoot your eye out!”). The Octoberfest is a 5 meter arm, which I can shoot on my basement range, providing I take my chair and cut the range in half where it is narrowest. An inconvenience, to say the least.
Would anyone else have an interest in such an adult, lead round, rifled barrel piece? Or am I just being my unique and sometimes wacky self? LOL I suspect I might just be a lonely scout on this prairie!
LFranke,
Since you call for a rifled barrel i would begin to be interested.
My interest in ownership would increase if build material choice, workmanship, fit and finish, quality windage and elevation adjustable/repeatable sporting sight system, and furniture were at least up to a high standard.
Superior standards would only increase my level of interest.
We are talking about a potential heirloom not Big Box store fodder, yes?
shootski
Yes, sold by store at the level of Pyramyd Air or gun shops.
My vision is of an adult (Lead Shot) ADULT BB gun. The cost would be much higher than those lying on the shelves of Wal*Mart or the like. It would come with a clearly displayed warning that it is for LEAD SHOT (like H&N Smart Shot) NOT for steel shot. Maybe with a sticker over the magazine stating this along with the box printing?
I can see a higher spring rate for the mainspring than the Model 25 which would have, as an advantage, the making this iteration an ADULT version.
LFranke,
Unless you have a dog, cat, or a pet rodent you can install a powerful sonic deterrent (+24,000 Hertz) motion detecting system that will keep or drive them out of your attic or anyplace else the sound gets to.
You will not hear a thing.
You could add very bright LED lights and apple cyder vinegar and other offensive smelling stuff to drive them out.
Beware! Mother racoons are fearless.
hth,
shootski
BB, Care to comment on any reduction in power with new Model 25’s
Bob,
I’m not really sure. A synthetic pistol seal may be part of it but beyond that I don’t know.
BB
BB sorry to hear about the break. The 25 is one of my favorites, and they are among the few who get range time torturing the hanging plastic bottle in the backyard.
Bob, I think the new 25s might have a weaker spring, too. My old wood barreled 25 is a much stouter cocking action than the 1988 one I have, but I don’t have one of the new crossbolt safety types to compare them with.