Pioneer pistol.
This report covers:
- Velocity—shemocity!
- Accuracy
- Loading feathered darts
- Bolts
- Fun?
- Summary
Everyone—my sister passed away on February 10 and I have gone to Tulsa OK to settle her estate and conduct the funeral. I don’t know when I will be back.
Today we look at the accuracy potential of the Snowpeak Pioneer pellet pistol when shooting airgun darts and bolts. I have lots to tell so let’s get started.
Velocity—shemocity!
First I tried for several hours on two different days to get velocity figures for the Pioneer. I have to say that it ain’t happening, at least not on my watch!
What I got on the first day was a repetitive error reading on skyscreen 2, which is farthest from the muzzle of the airgun. I tried everything—moving back, moving closer, shining the light on the ceiling, shining it directly on the skyscreen. Nothing worked.
The light I used was a photographc LED fill light that has a diffuser just like the ones found on the light kits that came with the Shooting Chrony when it was sold. So shining directly on a skyscreen shouldn’t be a problem. This light is dimmable and I did try it on low intensity as well as on high.
I figured because I was in my garage perhaps there was something wrong, so on day two I moved into a room with a lower ceiling. Once again, no joy.
I don’t know what the problem is. I thought it was the use of LED lights, but I went online and saw that LEDs ought to work. I know the darts are moving slowly, but I have successfully chronographed BB guns that shot around 200 f.p.s. and rubber band Sharpshooter guns that shoot .12-caliber birdshot at 60 f.p.s. so I don’t think it’s the velocity.
I then took the chronograph outside on an overcast day—the perfect lighting conditions for chronographing. I got one reading on a feathered dart of 106 f.p.s. The bolts gave me the same hinky reading as they gave inside except it was now reading skyscreen 1 instead of 2.
The bottom line is—I don’t know why I can’t chronograph darts, but I can’t. You’ll have to be satisfied with that single velocity.
Accuracy
Next I shot the pistol for accuracy. There I had a different problem. It was too accurate! I was using the sisal dartboard because the darts tend to disappear when I shoot them at a cardboard box filled with rubber mulch. When I shot them at the center of the dart board they went where I aimed, but they didn’t stick.
I shot from 8 feet away from the dartboard. That is where my toes were. The muzzle was closer I’m sure. I aimed at the center of the board but three out of four darts bounced off the board.
Then I wondered if the center of the board was perhaps too hard for the dart points. I didn’t see how it could be, but I had to try something. I intentionally held off the center and stuck three feathered darts in a row.
When I intentionally aimed away from the center of the dart board, the feathered darts stuck. Maybe they were hitting the metal parts and rebounding but the points of the darts I recovered were not dulled.
Loading feathered darts
Once the pistol’s barrel was broken open I just pushed a feathered dart into the breech. The tuft of “hair” scrunched together and held the dart in the barrel. Then just squeeze the trigger and the dart went where I aimed. Now I’m aware that 8 feet is no great distance but so far that’s the longest I have been able to shoot with this airgun and have the darts stick. I imagine it changes gun by gun, because as I recall the Tyrolean Buglespanner worked best at 12 feet.
Bolts
Bolts were impossible to chronograph and they were also extremely difficult to stick. I shot them from the same 8 feet and this time it was a real chore getting them to stick in the bullseye. I got one to stick out of perhaps 10 attempts.
Then I wondered whether that center of the target was still too tough, so I intentionally aimed off center. Voila, it worked. The next two darts stuck just fine.
To get the bolts to stick I had to aim away from the center of the dart board.
The bolts rested in the barrel loosely and would slip out if I wasn’t careful. So I held the pistol to keep the barrel parallel with the floor at all times.
Fun?
Is it fun to shoot darts in the Pioneer? Yes and no. Yes, when the darts stick the Pioneer is extremely accurate, though we are only talking 8 feet. But there was a lot of work that had to be done to make this all work. At least I’ve had the experience and will be ready when the Umarex Markpoint arrives.
Summary
In this report I have shown you something you can do with one of those inexpensive Chinese air pistols. I wouldn’t run out and get one, but maybe you have something like it laying around. Now you know what can be done with it.
“…my sister passed away on February 10…”
BB,
I am so sorry for your loss.
May God grant you peace in His own good time.
Take care,
dave
“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather
to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” — the Apostle Paul, 2nd Corinthians 5:8
Dave,
Yes, she is definitely happier now. I imaging she’s consulting with the Lord, give pointers on how to perfect heaven!
Meanwhile I gotta plan a sendoff for the earth suit.
BB
Condolences and prayers for your sister, you and the family, Tom. Appreciate the fact you keep on plugging away at the blog and your other airgun-related responsibilities but you might need some bereavement time off.
“I imaging she’s consulting with the Lord, give pointers on how to perfect heaven!”
Hahaha! I love that! 🙂
BB,
This pistol looks like a copy of a European air pistol I had given to me when I was in high school.
It shot so high that I had my friend’s dad (a shop teacher) machine a new taller front sight for it.
I believe it was made in Czechoslovakia…but my memories from 50 years ago are suspect. 😉
While no powerhouse, it was well made.
Blessings to you,
dave
Tom,
Condolences to you and your family. May God’s perpetual light shine upon her.
Seems like you are going to be waiting for the arrival of the Umarex Markpoint to see if it will be a better fun gun than this Snowpeak Pioneer with all this groundwork. If you have time see if you can find that pan of duct seal that you made some time ago.
Siraniko
Sorry for your loss. Maybe try the Snowpeak sold as the Diana P5 with darts?
Tom my condolences for your loss.
That long barreled Umarex spa might be a good candidate for shooting darts.
In my opinion this pistol is simply too powerful for darts. Looks like they are compressing the dart board and metal dividers and being ejected with the rebound. That or the tips are too short to retain the dart, or both.
I’m going to make an assumption here. The metal dividers are there to make it easier to determine the impact point of the dart for scoring. Not only that, but the board was designed to be used with regular hand thrown darts with long points to retain them and avoid going deep enough for the dart body to impact the metal dividers. Two wrongs will not make things right here.
Save the darts for the pistols designed to shoot them and use a self-healing foam dart board designed for them. Looks like they have a 300fps max power. Or … Keep trying to get lucky.
Boy I do hate it when you hit the post comment button and get a pop up, “You are not connected to the internet” and all is lost.
Just wanted to offer my condolences as well, No update on my sister’s cancer yet.
Bob M – copy your text every time before you attempt to post; then you can paste it if you get thrown off the first time. FM and others here have experienced that quaint little quirk from WordPress more than once.
BB,
Sorry for your loss.
I am sorry to hear about your sister, travel safe and you will be in our prayers.
About the darts not chronoing with the optical chronograph.
Maybe try using a black sharpie to “paint”the metal parts of the dart so the sky screen has a darker more defined area that interrupts the incoming light.
Just a thunk..
Ian.
I’m so sorry for your loss Tom. Prayers for you and your family.
Your problems with the chronograph brought to mind the first chronograph I bought. It is the Acetech AC5000, it uses infrared technology, and you have to shoot through a small (~1”) opening. It appears these were developed for the air soft community. But they work for pellets and BBs also. However, CO2 causes problems for them. They recommend keeping a distance from the chronograph with CO2 guns. I will try some darts with mine and let you know if it works.
https://support.acetk.com/products/59199163dcb23e0b91000001
BB,
We are sorry to learn of your sister’s passing. As you have said, she is home now. Safe travels to you.
BB,
Now I am going to have to work on my Webley Junior some. Now where did I put that round tuit?
As I have posted before, Umarex will be bringing out .177 AND .22 air bolts soon.
BB,
sorry for your loss. prayers for the whole family.
CB
B.B.
Thought a prayers are with you in your time of loss.
And then all the paperwork…
-Y
BB
For you and family she will be sorely missed. But she trades in her old wardrobe for a beautiful new one to enjoy forever.
Deck
B.B.,
My condolences and prayers offered for her soul and your safe travels.
May her memory be eternal and strength to you.
B.B.
Sorry for your loss. Prayers for you and yours.
Doc
B.B.,
My Condolences on the passing of your sister.
I hear tell she has already started to demand that the angels pass a check flight with her before they get their wings. She had a great reputation as a CFI and Examiner.
shootski
shootski,
That’s so good I’m putting it into my remarks at the funeral!
BB
B.B.,
You are most welcomed.
High Flight*
By John Gillespie Magee Jr.
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
of sun-split clouds,—and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of—wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov’ring there,
I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air ….
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew—
And, while with silent lifting mind I’ve trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
Nan need not make anymore landings.
shootski
*The poem is in the public domain
shootski,
Thanks.
That’s perfect for Nan!
BB
B.B.
My sympathies on your loss. May the peace that passes understanding rest on you.
jumpin
B.B. and Readership,
I asked AI about Tom’s Chronograph issues: ”
The below is what AI came up with even though asking about darts was a non starter…
“When using a chronograph to measure the velocity of a .223 caliber bullet with a long, heavy bullet design, you might encounter issues like inconsistent readings or a failure to register the bullet consistently because the longer bullet can disrupt the chronograph’s sensors, leading to inaccurate velocity data due to its larger profile and potential for erratic flight patterns.
Key points about this issue:
Sensor disruption:
The larger diameter of a heavier bullet can partially block the light beam on the chronograph’s sensors, causing inconsistent readings or missed detections, especially if the bullet is not perfectly centered as it passes through the sensors.
Bullet stability:
Heavier, longer bullets may have a higher tendency to wobble or yaw in flight, which can further affect how they interact with the chronograph’s sensors, leading to unreliable data.
Chronograph limitations:
Standard chronographs are designed for typical bullet weights and shapes, so using very long bullets can push the limits of their accuracy.
What to do about it:
Adjust chronograph setup:
Sensor spacing: Try adjusting the distance between the chronograph’s sensors to accommodate the longer bullet.
Sensor alignment: Ensure the sensors are perfectly aligned to minimize the chance of the bullet hitting them off-center.
Choose a different chronograph:
Consider using a chronograph specifically designed for measuring heavier or longer bullets, which might have larger sensor openings or other features to handle larger projectiles.
Bullet selection:
Match bullet weight to your rifle: Select a bullet weight that is well suited for your rifle’s twist rate to promote better stability.
Consider shorter bullets: If possible, opt for a shorter, heavier bullet design to minimize the potential for disruption.
Shooting technique:
Consistent shooting posture: Maintain a consistent shooting position to minimize variations in bullet flight.
Test multiple rounds: Shoot a larger sample of rounds to get a better representation of the bullet’s velocity range.”
Some of it is useful most of it is probably not the issue.
My personal experience with optical chronographs was that in order for them to give accurate output they need to be leveled in a minimum of two and better still all three axis. Just another reason i embraced Doppler Chronographs.
shootski
So, the idea is darts might be too long, so B.B. should try to shoot a few pellets over his chronograph with this little pistol to see if it is the darts or the chronograph. If it still acts up, he can test the chronograph with another one of his recently tested airguns.
Roamin Greco,
AI seems to imply that.
It makes me wonder if Optical Chronographs start the clock on detection of the beginning of the shadow or after passage?
If it is the same as in Timing Traps it should be the leading edge.
Your ideas on testing the Chronograph with the most recent and known airgun/projectile is certainly the first thing to do. I might also do a fresh battery swap out and/or a Reset if the Chronograph has one.
shootski
BB,
Sorry to hear of the passing of your sister, it will probably take awhile before you stop catching yourself thinking “I should call her.” (It makes looking forward to seeing her again that much sweeter.)
And, thank you, Shootski, for adding “High Flight” to today’s blog. (The father of a good friend had a print of it, over his desk. He was a pilot and said that it spoke to him the first time that he saw it. It also reminds me of the first time that he took me up.)
Bill
Tom
Sorry for your loss. We will keep you in our prayers
3-4 meters for that pistol is probably not bad. I find paper Dart Boards better for low power airguns.
I’ve been using the attached for about 18 months. Wires are usually the problem with bounce outs.
Kind Regards
jda-001
reversed view
BB
My deepest condolences about the passing of you sister. We know she is in a better place.
With regards to you chrony issues I would suggest trying with an old style incandescent light. Most LED lights – and especially those with adjustable output – use a technique called PWM where the electrical current flowing through the LEDs is interrupted part of the time. The on-off time ratio determines the perceived brightness. This is done at high frequency so it is not noticeable to the human eye or even a camera but, potentially, could confuse a sensor. Just an idea.
Henry
B.B., bless your sister’s soul. If she’s anything like you, the Angels best be prepared. 😉
Long time listener, first time caller. I feel like I know many of you, having spent the last 5 or 6 years reading almost all of the past blogs and comments. I will feel like a weirdo if I don’t balance that, so a bit about me: I’ve lived most of my life somewhere in the Mojave Desert in the SW United States. Currently in NW Arizona. Grew up shooting firearms. I had a Red Ryder when I was quite young but I was always frustrated with its lack of accuracy. I never thought of airguns as “just toys” but was unaware of thier evolution in recent decades. About 6 years ago I decided to try a pellet gun to shoot cheaply and in my garage. I of course went the magnum break-barrel route with a .22 Gamo of some model. It surprised me with its accuracy, and with its rather unpleasant shot cycle. Then I fell down the rabbit hole. Now I like airguns more than firearms.
When I’m not flinging bb and pellet, I am likely weaving up some cloth or a rug. For a living I move plants around all day, and other nursery related tasks. I quite like it. I can juggle a bit. :p
I am still an amatuer in the world of airgun knowledge, but not a total newbie, so I feel like I can actually contribute a little now.
Hey B.B. here’s a neat bit of linguistics for ya: In “velocity shemocity” the “she” should properly be “shm”, as in, “velocity shmelocity”. It is a form of reduplication called “shm-reduplication” and comes to us from the Yiddish via the NE United States.
I’m glad to be joining this great group of people. Thank y’all for having me.
Jared
Welcome Jared,
What a fun hobby this is! BB’s blog is full of good community and is a place of higher learning.
Regards,
Will
Jared,
Welcome to the blog.
BB
PlinkeyTheElder,
Welcome ( באַגריסן ) Jared,
shootski
B.B.
So sorry to to hear of your loss. may her memory be a blessing.
Prayers to you.
Mike
Welcome, Jared! Many of us have our own rabbit holes we dwell in.
I got it, the solution to the chronograph problem. Use the same system we have for finding the best pellet, well almost. Buy a half dozen chronographs, shoot 10 darts through them to find the one that works best.
If all fail, just take an average. I’m sure all those serious 10-meter dart competition shooters will appreciate it 😉
So, now that I got my Cognizant Impaired Veteran friend a 100% VA disability rating his problems for the future have all disappeared …Oh, wait, what? He has now been declared incapable of managing money and everything is on hold!
No kidding … Now I need to start on the process of becoming his Fiduciary. Been doing it for over 3 years now but it needs to be official. More interviews, background checks, paperwork and lengthy delays.
Don’t want another legally assigned representative in the game to deal with.
You could use your posts to this blog as a history of sorts on all you did for him. You could put together a very detailed chronology of all your actions on his behalf.
Just had an idea.
How you can have a springer air rifle that can shoot at 300 fps or 1200 fps.
A variable rotary bleed-air port at the end of the compression chamber. Dial it in for each shot or set it for any fps.
Divert the air into the stock someplace or incorporate an air defuser.
Interesting idea. I wonder if that’s been tried before. I suggest you talk to a patent attorney who understands mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. A patent attorney can do a prior art search through the US patent database.
Roamin,
Good suggestion but I have everything covered. Enough documentation to fill a backpack and email to turn your eyes red from reading it all. It’s just all the hassle and time it takes dealing with the VA.
Had to get Power of Attorney just to speak to them on his behalf.
That bleed air thing is open for anyone to act on.
Bob M,
Have you thought of adoption?
shootski
Shootski,
I have already drawn the line for liability. Feel like I’m walking a tight rope with someone’s life in my hands.
Bob M,
You obviously are doing all this out of a deep caring for your shipmate.
Being his Fiduciary is a difficult task on your own. I hope you have a good CPA to keep the books straight.
I wish you all the best; you have a heart of pure GOLD.
shootski
Shootski,
If i don’t look out for him he would be homeless, living under a bridge and starving to death. Not even knowing the pain in his stomach was from hunger. He forgets he needs to eat.
Cognizant Disorder keeps you from thinking with any sort of reasoning and Demecia won’t let you remember anything.
You windup brushing your teeth with Old Spice underarm deodorant and not recognizing the fact that you have soiled your pants. He’s in diapers now.
Bob,
That is a neat idea to play with. A fine needle valve would be too coarse I’d bet, and there would be some heat to pass along somewhere.
But I can’t help thinking that someone would then want to design small noise makers to attach to the air defuser, to customize the sound profile of your gun. Der Squeakermaus, The Whizzthwacker, The Farfling Fharter, The Razzmatic, the Whistlin’ Dixie Multitone!
Will S,
Oh that’s good. A Whizzbang.
Don’t get me started…. Take your Farfling Fharter to the range every April 1st, then blame the sounds on Yogi! ;o)
For you HW90 fans, here is one to watch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/375986471269?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=obnoayvptvg&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=g1VQzXcdTNm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Allow me to add my condolences on the loss of your beloved sister.
Fred