What to oil – Part 3 Finishing the spring guns

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2

Today we’ll finish with spring guns. In Part 2, we learned how to oil the piston seal and breach seal on a springer; now it’s time to discuss all the other stuff.

What else is there?
How a gun is designed determines where it needs to be lubricated. A breakbarrel, for example, has fewer places to lube than a sidelever or underlever. But if you think in terms of friction, you should be able to figure out the lube points on any new gun, whether it comes with a manual or not.

Cocking mechanisms
The cocking effort must be transmitted through some kind of mechanism. In the Gat-type guns that have push-barrel cocking (The Crosman M1 Carbine, for example), the mechanism is greatly simplified, and the need for lubrication is reduced. Still, they have surfaces in contact with one another as the barrel slides back to cock the gun. Those need some kind of lube. Oil is probably better than grease because Gat guns have a long run of close tolerances, and you don’t want the lube to gum up the action.


The Crosman M1 Carbine is a BB gun that cocks like a Gat.

A breakbarrel, in contrast, has only the pivot bolt, the sides of the breech or base block and the parts of the cocking link that need lube. For them, the load factor is higher, and a tough grease that won’t break down or run off when hot is the way to go. I use Beeman’s M2M moly grease for this part of the gun, and so do a lot of tuners. The moly particles bond with the metal surfaces they come in contact with, and they provide lube long after the grease is gone.


See the thin thrust washer that fits between the baseblock and the mainspring forks on both side of the gun? It’s been greased with moly, which is proper for a tuneup. The pivot bolt also gets a coat of moly grease.


When the sliding cocking link is installed, it keeps the piston from rotating. It’s also lubed with moly.

For underlevers and sidelevers, a lever takes the place of the barrel and the need for lube remains the same. Find the spots where the pivot points are located and lubricate every surface that touches.

I’ve seen just the basic lube job I described above reduce the cocking effort by several pounds. Of course, the gun that did respond so well was in dire need of lubricant. Most guns won’t be in that shape, and a lube job will not have as dramatic an effect.

Mainsprings
Here I have to burst some bubbles, as there has been a great disservice done to airgunners for the past 40 years. I’m speaking about oiling the mainspring of a gun. The disservice is the fact that oil isn’t normally the right lube to use on a mainspring. It is, however, the easiest lube to apply, which is why I think it has been pushed so hard. On many spring guns, there’s a cocking slot through which at least part of the mainspring can be see once the gun is out of the stock, so airgun dealers have told shooters they should apply oil through that slot.

But oiling isn’t enough for most mainsprings. They need grease, and the only way to do the job right is to disassemble the action and apply the grease directly to the spring. Sorry, folks, but that’s a fact. This is especially true for the modern magnum springers. Oiling just doesn’t get it, but it’s easy and shooters feels they’ve done their part when they do it.


This is the correct amount of black tar for a mainspring for a rifle that vibrates a lot. For one that has a spring that’s sized closer, you only need a fraction of this amount.

With guns that shoot under 12 foot-pounds and have leather piston seals, I like to see a medium-weight grease used–something lithium-based, perhaps. For all others, I like the more viscous greases that don’t fling off–the black tars, if you will. How much you use depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. You may remember that I recently tuned an HW55 with just a kiss of black tar. It sped up the gun without bringing any vibration into the operation. That’s about as perfect as you can hope for.

Triggers
Nothing responds to a lube job as much as a cheap trigger. And an expensive one barely changes at all, if you even notice it. There are triggers that become unsafe with lubrication. Those found on BSF rifles and pistols come to mind. I lube my triggers with Beeman M2M moly grease. Dr. Beeman once wrote that moly was too slippery for triggers, but I found that only the unsafe triggers had a problem. You shouldn’t lubricate them at all.


I lube only good triggers, such as this Rekord, at the sear contact. Enough oil gets on the other parts, like the bearings, through general handling.

Well, that’s it for lubricating airguns. I’ve covered CO2 guns, pneumatics and now spring guns. Remember that it’s usually best to lube less than more, with the exception of Pellgunoil on pump piston heads and CO2 cartridges. There, it’s impossible for a reasonable person to use too much oil.

76 Responses to “What to oil – Part 3 Finishing the spring guns”

  • JP Says:

    BB, I think I asked before if you were planning to include storage with this series. I remember asking about greasing the barrel, and you specifically said NO GREASE. What do you use in the barrel, or are you going to cover that as well. Also, I asked a long time ago something about if your air rifle gets immersed or severly rained on: procedures to dry it and lube it. Maybe consider these in this series. JP

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    JP,

    I think I remember you asking that. And in any event, it is a worthy topic.

    I’ll do it.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Happy thanksgiving weekend! Sorry to pester you with an off topic question but have you learned anything about the crosman pcp you mentioned a while ago? If it is moderately priced I think it might be just what I need…then again my patience isn’t that great. Will you likely get a prototype? Dont work too hard on the podcast this weekend!
    John

  • Jon Stroud Says:

    JP:

    I have longed used WD-40 on both the external and internal of the barrel. There’s folklore against WD40, (not from the makers – they encourage use on fire-arms right on the can), and there is a misconception that it forms varnish over time.

    Because it’s a mineral based carrier solvent with a blend of “high-boiling” dense, persistent, lubricants, it will feel like a varnishy residue after a few years, especially as it grabs ambient micro-dusts, but it is very protective.

    A quick shot of fresh WD40 will strip away this residue instantly.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    John,

    I have learned that it will be quiet and that it will be launched at the SHOT Show. I hope to have a rifle to test in a week or two. As soon as Crosman gives me the okay, I will show you everything.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jon,

    I must disagree about the ease with which WD-40 is stripped away. I sprayed a Mauser before going to Germany for 4 years. When I returned, it took about 4 hours of work over two months to get rid of the yellow varnish. It didn’t harm the metal one bit, but it was not easy to clean.

    B.B.

  • J. Stroud Says:

    B.B.
    I respect your comments, but these individual observations are non-statistical and contribute to urban legends. WD40 was designed to protect all surfaces of Atlas rockets. (it was formulated by the rocket company, and this was its sole use). You may have had other oils, GSR, or contaminants on the Mauser that contributed to the varnish, or some other variable that we have not envisioned.

  • Anonymous Says:

    actually I’d consider extensive test such as this http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html to be quite thorough and ‘statistical’.
    From my own past experience (a lifetime ago I was HD mechanic working on Cats) working on very precise fuel injection units (yeah, I know…precise on a bulldozer!) we could use WD-40 to loosen dirt and rust frozen parts, but always had to flush it off and replace with proper lubes…because with time and heat it did tend to form a varnish that was very hard to remove.
    I really think there is more than a grain of truth to this ‘myth’.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi Guys,

    I stopped using WD-40 a long time ago when I was told that it can cause bone cancer by being absorbed by the skin.

    Is this another urban myth, or is it true?

    I seems likely to me that such a product could reach and invade bone tissue.

    Joe B.

  • FRED Says:

    My understanding of WD-40 is that is was developed for water dispersal (WD) and that the number 40 indicates the 40th formulation before the developers were satisfied. From a lubrication standpoint, it’s poor compared to other purpose manufactured oils and greases. But there are tons of uses for it, in addition to airguns. Beware that it can attack some o rings depending on the material the o ring is made of. As the saying goes, if it moves and it’s not supposed to, use duct tape. If it doesn’t move and it’s supposed to, WD-40.

  • Anonymous Says:

    J.Stroud,
    Everyone knows there are lots of better lubes/oils/protectants than somethng as old-fashioned as wd-40. I’m not even a mechanic and I know it.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    Shoot, I was hoping to just spray Ballistol over everything and let it migrate. But now, I can send the gun to Rich from Mich if there’s a need.

    I don’t believe this series covered lubricating the compression chamber of springers. Any advice on how often to do that? I’m starting to keep track of how many rounds I’m shooting.

    On a different topic, I’ve come up with a reason for reloading for firearms. It seems that there is no factory load that is safe for the M1 Garand. The best candidates are the 150 grain load by Black Hills and the Federal American Eagles but both are too hot by 100 fps. That leaves me with the 60 million rounds of Greek ammo at the CMP. That sounds like a lot, but people are buying it up so furiously that they have restricted the amount you can order. So, one day I might be faced with no ammo, especially since the military issue 30-06 is bound to dry up sooner or later.

    That leaves reloading. Apparently reloading for a semi-auto is even more complex than for a bolt gun. My M1 manual says that “if you don’t know the difference between chamber headspacing and cartridge headspacing you are not qualified to reload for an M1.” Well, I don’t have a clue what that is. But if I’m not trying to experiment with different loads but simply want to produce one given to me by Clint Fowler: 150 gr. SMK, 51.5 gr. of 4064, Remington case, and a type of primer I have written down but which I can’t recall now. This load is supposed to be popular with the Camp Perry shooters. With this info, is it just a matter of choosing settings on a machine and letting it run or do you need some kind of specialized technical knowledge and manual dexterity? For instance, there seems to be something involved in positioning the primer correctly and that seems like a similar problem to seating the bullet to the right depth in the casing. And I’m not sure what’s involved in measuring out the exact right amount of powder. Anyway, if you could give me an idea of how hard it is to produce a specified load and how much the equipment would cost that would be great. Thanks.

    Matt61

  • Mr B. Says:

    Good evening B.B. I like the way WD40 protects the finish on my blued guns. But I have heard it’s not to be used on cartridges because it can get to and “kill” the primer. I don’t have first hand knowledge of that though. Mr B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Matt,

    The piston chamber lube was covered in part 2

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/11/what-to-oil-part-2-oiling-piston-and.html

    To reload you need common sense, which isn’t as common as the name implies. Reloading isn’t hard, and whoever wrote that crap about headspacing was full of it. I don’t even know what they were talking about, and I can headspace and time an M2 Heavy Barrel machine gun.

    Reloading is like cooking from a recipe. You follow the recipe and things turn out like they should. You work carefully and there will be no problems.

    How hard is it? Well, how long is a piece of string?

    It will be harder for some than for others, but I believe that anyone of average intelligence should be capable of reloading. How hard is it to use a computer?

    What you do is start with a basic reloading press. I recommend the RCBS Rockchucker. Get a powder scale and I recommend an electronic one, because you’ll get frustrated by how slow the analog ones are — though I used them for the first 20 years of my reloading career. $100

    You need a set of reloading dies, and again I recommend RCBS. Don’t forget to buy a shellholder, because the dies don’t come with one. $40.

    And you will need a reliable powder measure. I recommend an RCBS Uniflow because you are reloading rifle cartridges and the Uniflow is very good for that. $63.

    Finally you should buy a reloading manual. I recommend the Lyman manual because it is the oldest and most tutorial. Get it first and learn from reading before you start to reload. $30

    A dial caliper is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary. $20 And eventually you will want a case trimmer. Get one from Lee for $20.

    All these things are available used on Ebay.

    $300 should get you set up with everything new.

    There are no “settings” on any of these machines. Instead YOU set them up as you want them to operate. Then you monitor them throughout the reloading process.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    Thanks for reminding me about that use for WD-40. I used to make acrylic desk sets with what appeared to be live ammo embedded in them. I used WD-40 to kill the primers after dumping the powder out a small hole on the underside of each cartridge.

    B.B.

  • DB Says:

    All,
    Funny thing with my Disco 2.2 in 22 caliber. My son & I both shot the heck out of it yesterday and it ate CRP like it loved them. Spit them right out on the point of aim every time.

    Today it thought the CRP was disgusting and spit them out all over the place. Couldn’t hit anything; even after the scope was installed. Bet if one would shoot non stop at a single target from 30-yards it would eventually punch out an 8-inch circle completely… the shot placement was that random.

    Cleaned the bore and no improvement could be discerned. And boy was it dirty and rusty. First several patches were black then next several were brown. Oiling a new patch resulted in fresh brown release. I’m guessing the brown was rust.

    After cleaning showed no improvement it was time to try alternate pellet choices. Today it loves AA Diabolo Field and JSB Predators. At 30-yards they group within and inch or so (didn’t really measure). Still not perfect but not too bad.

    Now what do I do with the 5,000 or so CRP 22 cal pellets in my gun locker. Maybe that is justification for a 22 cal pistol. A 2240 or HB22 a custom built 1322 would be nice. Crazy thing is we were shooting clover leaf groups at 20-yards yesterday with iron sights using the CRP pellets.

    If per chance anyone has an idea please share it.

    The saga goes on,
    DB

  • wayne Says:

    DB,

    Did you change the fill level… my Discos’ like it between 1,800 and 1,200… and they always like the JSB best… or tone it down with some Kodiak 21 gr….

    Anything over 1,800 will probably send it into valve lock until it gets down to 1,800 or so… under valve lock, it can’t let all the air out, so you can be low… Also the barrel band can be moved out closer to the end.. sometimes that can help..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Mr B. Says:

    DB: Might be a rough bore that quickly leaded up passing CRP pellets. Now I don't know how to use J&B Bore Paste in mine either–so folks how about some suggestions. Thanks Mr B.

  • J.D. in CA Says:

    All:

    WD40 is well documented – is was designed to be a cleaner and protectant, not a high-performance lubricant. It’s great for gun barrels, though, and it’s just as good as any light-oil lubricant.

    Where does this cancer stuff come from!! It isn’t even Prop 65 listed! The MSDS is public information, all you need to do is read it.

    B.B. I have a question about chamber oil. I bought a bottle from Pyramid, they sent me one labeled “AGE Chamber Oil”. I put two drops in every chamber, and got a slew of detonations – my CFX was pushing CPs at 1100FPS, my 5G Magnum was popping and smoking, and I swear it damaged the spring on my Crossman. What did I do wrong? I thought this stuff was not supposed to detonate?!

  • DB Says:

    Wayne,
    Yes did try changing fill level. Seemed the same from at all presure levels.

    The AA Diabolo Field and JSB Predators hit zero from 2k down to the yellow. Of course at only 30-yards a change in impact would be minor until pressure dropped way down.

    Mr. B,
    We agree… just means taking the gun apart to polish the bore. Was not wanting to void the warranty just yet. Still might be needing it. That is in the plans though… along with a debouncer.

    DB

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,
    What would a muzzle brake (beeman ported to be exact)do to spring gun harmonics?

    I’ve been experimenting with barrel harmonics on the Remmington 77. I know you say “only spring guns have harmonics”, supposedly not. First test was as is from the factory; about 4inches at 25yards. Second test; I puttied the barrel jacket down to the compression chamber, that got around an inch at 25yards. 3rd test I put foam padding evenly between the barrel and jacket wall, that turned out 2 inches at 25 yards. All tests were done with premier heavies at 4pumps.

    I also did some long range shots at 70 yards. I only did these with the foam padded barrel and the puttied barrel. The foam got 5 inches and the puttied got 2.
    Shadow express dude

  • DB Says:

    All,
    I gave up WD-40 on my guns long ago. Only use gun oil and or dry silicone spray. Remington brand seems to work in my 870 very well. Being a dry lube it does not collect dirt and grime.

    Hoppe’s No. 9 of course is the main cleaner for a powder burner barrel and it is also the long term storage media that works for my guns.

    DB

  • Vince Says:

    JD, the stuff they sent you – first, what did you actually order and second, did that say “AGE” or “AEG”???

  • JD from CA Says:

    Vince:

    I ordered “Chamber Lube” from Pyramid, $5.75 for a little bottle. The bottle they sent was the right size, but the label said “AEG Chmaber Lube” (yes, the first post was a typo).

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    Thanks, great info as usual. That cracks me up about the cartridge and chamber headspacing business. If you don’t know it, I’m not going to worry about it.

    Matt61

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    DB,

    Your rifle may be leaded from the Crosman Premiers. JSB Predators are not accurate pellets, and the Air Arms pellets don’t work in every gun. What you need are real JSB Exacts. They will group in a half-inch at 30 yards every time.

    Now, if you are actually shooting with open sights, how good are you? A scope will normally cut the group size in half, which would give you the half-inch JSB groups I mentioned. Your eyes vary day by day, and that could be what is causing your larger groups.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    J.D.,

    AGE is short for Airgun Express – an airgun dealer that Pyramyd Air bought out a couple years ago. Their chamber oil is high-flashpoint silicone – the stuff you need.

    AEG is short for automatic electric gun – a type of airsoft gun. And chamber oil made for an airsoft gun would not be correct for a spring-piston pellet gun. Airsoft AEG guns are spring-piston, but their springs are weak and their pistons are made from light plastic. They do not have the same compression as a real pellet gun

    So the exact arrangement of those initials is extremely important to your problem.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    SED,

    A muzzle brake adds weight to the barrel to which it is attached. Whenever weight is added to the barrel it changes the vibration pattern. So adding a muzzle brake will change how the barrel vibrates.

    Your foam and putty experiments dampened the vibration of the barrel. The putty dampened it most of all. That’s why it grouped tighter.

    B.B.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Hi DB: Is your Discovery behaving now? Your mentioned gettting a debounce installed. Pray tell, what is that and what does it do? Thanks Mr B.

  • Vince Says:

    That’s why I was asking about “AGE” vs. “AEG”. I think JD is putting airsoft lube in his gun, which I wouldn’t recommend!

    I imagine this is what he wanted:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=1015

    JD – what does the rest of the bottle say?

  • DB Says:

    Mr B.,
    Debouncer… as I understand it prevents the hammer from causing a second release of air by dampening the hammer bounce. Conserves on air and may flatten the power curve… at least that is the claim. Likely do nothing for this concern.

    Going out right now to try a few more shots. Will let you know how it (or me) is performing.

    B.B.,
    Used iron sights on Wednesdays shoot and CPR shot great. Then same iron sights on Thursday and same tin of CPR would not group. So… thinking it could be my skill or lack there of with iron sights I mounted the scope.

    Still could not get them to group even using a scope. But with the AA groups could be achieved. No I’m not a great shot. In fact on some days I stink… but not that much.

    Yep have some JSB’s on order from PA already. Going to root through the gun locker again… think I ordered some back in March. But there were back orders and cancellations and the final outcome has been forgotten. Didn’t matter until I had a working Disco in my hands.

    Going to hunt for pellets and then shoot some right now.

    DB

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi B.B.

    You mentioned some time ago a new Leaper’s 9x BugBuster scope. Any updates on when to expect it? Expected cost?

    Cheers,
    Bill

  • JD in CA Says:

    Vince / B.B.

    I have checked the bottle, in person this time, not from memory. As I hold it here, it does indeed say AGEChamberlube.

    That is all it says – juts a plain white label on a small, maybe 2oz. plastic bottle. No other markings ar all.

  • DB Says:

    B.B.,
    Just shot few dozen shots from Disco 2.2 and it jus simply does not like CRP HP at all. Overall results were:

    - AA Arms Diabolo Field were very good – ½” groups – excluding my few bad shots – just like yesterday
    - JSB Exact – 1” groups (but read below)
    - CRP HP – very bad – 6” groups with random POI – no pattern could be defined
    - 2,000 psi start fill shot well into the low teens
    - 1,800 psi start fill shot no better than 2,000 just gave fewer shots
    - 1,500 psi start fill quickly developed low POI

    This gun seems to perform better on a full 2,000 psi charge. The AA pellet performed so well at 30-yards I had to keep moving the aim point to see the impact.

    The tin of JSB Exacts was damaged and most of the pellet skirts were bent. So accuracy test was not valid. Will retest them with a fresh undamaged tin. BTW… must have gotten dropped in my home. It was not damaged as shipped from PA… shipments are always inspected. Lots of shooting needed to tame this beast – and with the power this baby packs beast is about right.

    Just for fun I shot a 2×4 pi cvccxne board at point blank range with a CRP HP and it went almost all the way through. Dang that is a lot of power. It has mangled my shooting trap… which was made from an old aluminum frying pan. That pan held up for decades of pounding by my 177 Crosman 766 with nothing but a pockmarks. Now it is almost blown out.

    Built a quick trap for it out of 12GA sheet steel and it bent it in half right away. Next attempt will be out of 1/8” plate steel. My Disco is a beast. Safety is critical – same as any gun of course.

    Think I’ll call Crosman and ask if removing the barrel for a good J&B paste cleaning will void the warranty. Might have to break down and by a chronograph too

    The PCP journey is just started.

    DB

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,
    I’m so exited. I just got a lightly used Rock Island Armory, 38super 1911 A1. It’s a great pistol with a parkerized finish, hugo grips, a grip clip holster, 11 rnd mag, and 432ftlbs. I can’t wait to go on boar hunts with this. It was owned by the county sheriff, he trade it in with 170rnd on it because his wife bought him a Wilson combat for Christmas. I BOUGHT IT FOR 347$ with 170rnds on it. Where can you get a deal like that? I also Picked up a Parker bow for my son.
    Shadow express dude

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    I’ll verify your statement about moly and cheap trigger. It has improved my Hammerli 490′s trigger immensely. It was about 4-5 lbs. with conventional oil, about 15 lbs. when it ran dry and now must be around 2 or 3 lbs. with no change except for adding moly to the sear “hook” through the cocking slot. These are just estimates. I’m tempted to buy a trigger pull scale, because it is what is almost a perfect level for me.

    Yesterday was our family Thanksgiving get together, and instead of my usual entertainment contribution (12G or similar), I took my 36-2 with a scope on it. It seems like we had at least as good a time as usual and the kids and a sister-in-law or two participated successfully as well. My older uncle had a bit of difficulty cocking it, and my dad wasn’t quite up to shooting (he is still recovering from surgery and treatment for liver cancer diagnosed a year ago), but the lack of noise and the good accuracy made it a hit with everybody, even those that don’t shoot.

  • Mr B. Says:

    DB: Have you tried shooting with CO2 instead of air? Mr B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hello everyone:
    I just want to let you know about what happened during my Thanksgiving holiday… We spent the holiday on my uncle’s house… I was shooting all day long using the Gamo Cone Pellet Trap with my uncle and brother… After eating turkey and a great banquet, we started drinking beer and whiskey… During our conversation, my uncle said he had a surprise for us… After a minute or two, he comes back with 3/4 stick of dynamite!!! Imagine how my brother and I reacted… We called the family so that we could witness the “big bang” all together…. (don’t ask were he found the stick, it doen’t matter… LOL)… But he told us that it was about 4 years old… So when we ignited it at about 40-50 yards away on top of a pumpkin; and after 1 minute, NO EXPLOSIOn… the ignition cord was no longer ignited… WHY?? maybe because it is more than 4 years old, and humidity is huge were he lives.. However, we were sort of afraid of going near it… So I had the great idea of shooting it with my Whisper VH, breaking it so that we could later throw water at it… LOL… So what happened… I cocked my springer with a JSB… aimed at the middle (I was at about 20 yards)… And 1/2 second after the trigger was pulled……….. BOOOOOM… “James Bond type of explosion”!!! It was incredible!!! No one ever imagined that by shooting at it, the stick was going to explode!! LOL.. well that was it, i was just eager to tell my story…LOL.. Take care everyone…
    Cheers,
    Jony

  • Randy-in-VA Says:

    Jony,

    A stick of dynamite at 20 yards – it is a good thing that you didn’t qualify yourself for a Darwin Award.

  • wayne Says:

    DB,

    Alright!
    It sounds like you got a great Disco, without “valve lock”… so are you getting about 40 shots per fill with a steady lowering of POI as the tank goes down? Not lower, then 25 on POI, then lower again?

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • wayne Says:

    Jony,

    Do it again, but this time video tape it..

    Just kidding dude! Something could have been blown back into you… your more crazy than me, if that’s possible.. I’m a different crazy, but just as dangerous…

    “Didn’t know it would blow up”

    HHHMMM.. You must have missed all those westerns where the good guys shot the gun powder barrel…. or stick of dynamite in the cave as the bad guys were coming in.. or was that going out?

    I know, they weren’t using a pellet gun.. so now we know that works too!!!

    Wayne

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Bill,

    I don’t know what happened to the new Bug Buster. I thought it was a variable, like a 2-7 power, but I don’t see anything on the Pyramyd Air website or the Leapers website.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    JD,

    Okay, you have now verified that in fact the chamber oil you used was high flashpoint silicone oil. I say that because that is what Airgun Express would have packaged.

    So now your question is why did your gun detonate for a couple of shots. It didn’t diesel – it always diesels with every shot. When you hear the bang, that is called a detonation.

    So, why did it do it? Because that’s what your gun does. That’s why you don’t want to lubricate with more than a single drop of oil about every 3,000 shots. Some guns just cannot tolerate too much oil.

    It is better to oil too little than to oil too much in this case.

    What I am saying is that even with the correct oil some guns will still detonate. That’s why we use chamber oil sparingly.

    No harm done. Continue to use the gun and don’t think of oiling it again for another couple of years.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    DB,

    Okay, you are starting to learn about your gun. Stay away from the Premier hollowpoints.

    As for cleaning the bore, if you did get half-inch groups with Air Arms pellets there is no reason to clean. So stop thinking about that.

    DO NOT remove the barrel!!! Crosman went to a lot of trouble to seal your gun and they leak-tested it after they did. By taking the barrel off, you could start a leak that would be difficult to find. I know they talk about it on the forums, but when I worked at AirForce I used to repair the guns of those forum posters after they reduced them to a sack of parts.

    They never tell anybody about all their failed experiments

    Just shoot your gun. Don’t clean the bore like I advised before. Just shoot it and stay away from Premiers.

    After you have 10K shots through it you will know so much more than you do now. It will no longer be a mystery and you will feel comfortable with it.

    Try to avoid reading the forums before that time.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    SED,

    A 1911 .38 Super with 170 rounds for $347? Heck, you got almost $100 worth of ammo in the deal. Yes, that is a super deal.

    I can see that it’s time for another installment on my Taurus.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    I was thinking of the 490 when I wrote that line about moly. Small world.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jony,

    Yes – the Darwin awards.

    Did your uncle test-time the fuse before he installed it? Did he have any idea how fast it burned per second, or was he just going from memory?

    There is no way a pellet or bullet will ignite dynamite unless it has been stored improperly or the fuse was still lit and the shot jarred it enough to catch again. Or the fuse was just burning slower than all of you thought it should.

    I used to teach demolitions in the Army and I think what you had was a hang-fire. The fuse was still burning, but it had slowed. Your pellet caused the fuse to catch fire again and finish the job.

    If you had touched the stick, the results might have been the same.

    The title we give to people who do things like that, as well as people who set of dynamite 20 yards away is “The late..”.

    If I were you, I would give that uncle a wide berth.

    B.B.

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    BB,

    You said about DB’s Discovery, “Crosman went to a lot of trouble to seal your gun.” There is a lot to seal related to the parts in the air tube (valve, pressure gauge adapter, fill adapter), but it doesn’t seem like there is much that would cause a leak just taking the barrel off. The one thing is the transfer port (unless you bump/move other things while taking the barrel off).

    Could you explain further about what kind of leaks could be caused and why, and what procedure should be followed to seal/reseal?

    Thanks,
    .22 multi-shot

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.,

    RE: Hold sensitivity and gun adjustments

    Was goofing around looking at some shooting videos created by US Army. One notion intrigued me. One of the army pro shooters talked about the proper angle for the gun butt so that the gun recoiled directly into your shoulder without lifting the tip of the barrel.

    Do you know if anyone has studied this for springers? For a shotgun the right angle not only improves precision, it keeps your shoulder from getting pounded. A springer won’t pound your shoulder, but anything that you could do to decrease barrel lift would have to help.

    Till I saw the video it didn’t occur to me to “adjust” an air rifle. It just doesn’t seem that “as is” from the factory would be the right fit for many. It obviously is crazy to pay a gunsmith $500 to adjust $150 gun, so folks just shoot them as they are. But I wonder if proper adjustment would reduce hold sensitivity.

    Herb

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    .22 multi-shot,

    Of course the barrel can come off easily enough. And the only seal there is between the firing valve and the barrel, AFTER the reservoir — so it would seem things would remain sealed.

    But what if DB removes the wrong thing during the job? Then there could be a leak very easily.

    When I give a warning like that I have no idea of how handy the guy on the other end is — nor do I know who else is reading this blog without comment and decides to do the same thing to their gun.

    As I said to DB, I have fixed and rebuilt so many PCPs from guys who did something similar — after being advised somewhere that their gun “needed it.” Mr. Condor from the Talon Owner’s Group stands out in my mind because he actually brought his gun into the plant one paper bag and his tank in another and I had to totally remanufacture them. This was AFTER several weeks of Mr. Condor giving others detailed instructions to do to their Condors what he did to his.

    So I always advise caution with PCPs. My warning is to just use the gun as long as it is working within expected parameters. Don’t look for trouble.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Herb,

    Other than the artillery hold, I’ve never seen a specific hold advised for springers. Why don’t you experiment?

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hey B.B.:
    You know what would be kind of interesting to investigate??? (at least for me since I do not own a Chrony)… I have noticed that people always measure Initial Velocity or the Muzzle Energy… but it would be interesting to find out the Final Velocity of the pellet at least 5 feet before hitting the target at different distances… This way you could compare which type of pellets (round nose, pointed nose, hollowpoints, predators, match, etc.) and which weights have the LEAST change of energy and/or velocity before impact…… I don’t know, but you (or anybody else with a chrony) could find some interesting data…. But careful, do not hit the chrony… LOL… Just curious…
    Cheers,
    Jony

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.,

    RE: Beeman SS1000H

    You last reported on the Beeman SS1000H Dual-Caliber rifle combo on March 24.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/03/beeman-ss1000h-dual-caliber-rifle-combo_24.html

    (1)Did you ever take it apart to see if the seals were synthetic or leather? (Or perhaps one of your readers has actually taken one apart and knows?)

    (2) After our discussions about springers and pistons, I wonder if the barrel on the 0.22 is too long. With the same power plant the 0.177 pellet would be faster of course. In order for the pellet to exit when the piston is at the same point in the backwards recoil, the barrel on the 0.22 would have to be shorter. Make sense?

    Herb

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    Thanks BB, you’re right. Disassembly of basic stuff on a $239 Discovery PCP could be a problem if you do the wrong thing. Better to learn on a $50 1377C multi-pump or 2240 CO2!

    That is one of the things I like about Crosman. You can gain experience on inexpensive guns that directly translates to more expensive guns :-).

    .22 multi-shot

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Herb,

    No, I never took the Beeman dual-caliber rifle apart. But I’m pretty sure it has a synthetic seal.

    The .22 barrel length is interesting. I wonder if any airgun maker ever looked at it that way. It wouldn’t be more than 30-40 f.p.s. at best, but there could be a difference.

    And Herb,

    ‘The pellet doesn’t start moving until the piston has stopped. I know someone on this blog has been saying that it exits the barrel (maybe you) bit that’s not the case. The pellet remains motionless unbtil the piston is almost stopped. That’s why the artillery hold is so important.

    Cardew proved that the pellet remains stationary until the piston stops and he give the proof in hsi book. You might want to read The Airgun From Trigger to Target.

    B.B.

  • twotalon Says:

    Jony…
    If you load up Chairgun, you can look at ballistic coefficients for a lot of different pellets. The higher the B.C. the less energy it loses over distance.
    twotalon

  • Anonymous Says:

    Can anyone recommend the probable-best .22 pellets and a good 3-9X scope for a Crosman 2240 with the 14″ bbl? It’s my birthday today so I thought I’d buy myself a gift. Thought I’d call PA tomorrow and order it with the long receiver, blue trigger shoe (’cause it’s so purty) and a good scope. I already have a stock and a muzzle brake from my currently-dead SSP-250.

    This would be my go-to outfit for plinking, target shooting and the odd huge rat. I’d also like to be able to take the scope on and off without too much hassle or change in POI.

    Also, can you get a .25 caliber bbl for the 2240 and is it worth it? Where would I order that from if it offered decent downrange energy?

    Any other suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Joe B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.,

    RE: Different barrel lengths on dual caliper guns

    I wasn’t thinking so much of velocity, but accuracy. The puff of air behind the pellet no doubt pushes on the pellet.

    But actually accuracy and max velocity might go hand in hand. It seems that you’d want the pellet to leave the barrel at some sort of “sweet” spot. Maximizing velocity might be the right point.

    Herb

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,

    Regarding the 490 trigger and moly, I feel like I’m in lofty company:). It really did remove what I felt was the only non-cosmetic objection to the little rifle — although I was happy with a ~4-5 lb. trigger, many wouldn’t be. I think that for my first airgun, and a fairly inexpensive one at that, I was extremely fortunate, except that it has spoiled me with its firing behaviour.

  • Vince Says:

    Herb, the seal on the Shanghai-built Norica SS1000 series with adjustable trigger (which is an AR1000 variant) is synthetic with a single screw securing it in the center.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Thanks, Vince.

    B.B.

  • DB Says:

    Wayne,
    Yes Disco 2.2 seems to not have any valve lock issues. This is good. I’m still amazed at the power.

    B.B.,
    Agreed CPR HP needs to be avoided in this Disco. The object of the discussion was simply to express my surprise – considering the initial success using them. And second to see if maybe I was over looking something fundamental.

    I’ve had several Crosman multi-pump guns apart and reassembled and fired. My 1377 has been apart several times and has been polished to my liking. It is now a tack driver at 10-yards and very nice out to 20-yards. Have tagged several rabbits and squirrels with it an close range.

    Removing the barrel of the Disco does not seem like a big deal. My only concern is warranty – do not want to tamper with the warranty.

    However… there is always a risk when giving advice and caution is wise.

    If Crosman says it is OK to remove it then I’ll do it. Can always ship it back to them in a paper bag and a fat check.

    So I’m getting the drift you do not recommend adding a debouncer or power adjuster. Both of which were in my long term plans.

    DB

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    DB,

    As far as the debouncer goes, I will recant on what I said earlier. I have read some great things about this item. It really seems to work.

    I don’t want to deprive you of something beneficial.

    And it does sound like you know what you are doing in the barrel department.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Matt61,

    QB-78 .177 arrived. Since it will be going under the tree, I only gave it a quick once over.

    Starting with the box, Mike Melick wrote a note on it stating it should give 800 fps and made a pellet recommendation. He signed the box too. Both were nice touches. Also, a piece of metal was attached to the exterior – some sort of valve tool.

    Inside, the rifle was fine and the box contained not only the factory manual but also two supplements from Mike on use and service. Lastly, a baggie of extra seals was included.

    That’s it for now; I was just checking for shipping damage – only spent about 5-10 minutes with it, I’ll let you know how it shoots after the 25th.

    Volvo

  • Vince Says:

    DB, I’m not sure that the Crosman Premier HP’s in .22 are all that consistent. When I first tried them I was tickled beyond belief – they shot so well in all my .22′s that I ordered a big batch of them. I shot them off and ordered another – and not ONE SINGLE TIN in that batch shot worth a damn.

    Some time later I tried a tin of the Benji HP’s, which are repackaged Premiers. Better, but they didn’t seem as good as the old ones. Some that I got more recently seem to be a bit better than that.

    I don’t know what’s going on – but in the brown-box Premier’s the .22′s cost exactly twice what the .177′s cost. But with the HP’s, though, both calibers cost the same. Think they might be skimping on QC?

  • DB Says:

    Vince,
    You might have a point there. Was shooting CPR HP from a tin. But I also have a couple of the higher priced boxed pellets.

    Will be testing them soon.

    DB

  • bob from oz Says:

    G’day BB

    Just read your opinion of your Leapers scope on a Kodiak. Since I have been playing with the Lead Sled device I am getting confused with scope adjustments and more confused after reading your article!

    Now as far as I was concerned 4 clicks to the 1” means at 100 yards it moves the point of aim 1”. So if I am shooting at 25 yards I would need 16 clicks to move it 1”. Is this correct?

    You were using 15 clicks and 10 clicks at 20 yards to walk the point of aim around. I would have thought 15 clicks = 3&3/4” and 10 clicks = 2&1/2” at 100 yards. So if you are shooting at 20 yards these have to be divided by 5. Is this correct?

    By looking at the groups you shot and the perceived distance you walked the point of aim around, these targets must be tiny.

    The reason I brought this up is that with my scopes one click at 25 yards seems to move point of impact a bloody long way compared to the above. But will group at that point.

    Cheers Bob

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    olvo,

    That valve tool sounds like the de-gasser. There is an oddly shaped hole on the left side of the receiver. That tool is inserted and then levered to open the valve mechanically to dump the contents of the valve. It accomplishes several things. If you want to dump the gas for any reason, that’s the way to do it. But if you are in a match and want a full fill before beginning, that dump chills the reservoir, allowing a full fill with fresh liquid CO2.

    Nice present!

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    G’day Bob,

    You have just discovered a fundamental truth. That is this: though scope manufacturers SAY their guns adjust by 1/8 minute and 1/4 minute, the truth is, it’s only an approximation.

    They use screws with very fine threads for these adjustments. They figure out the ratio of rotation (clicks) to movement, then they pick the closest fraction (1/4 minute or 1/8 minute) and that’s what they claim. In truth, the reticles adjust by odd amounts — as you have just discovered.

    This practice is simpler for them than publishing the truth that would confuse many customers. And besides, not many people go to the trouble to find out the truth.

    Your math is correct. The assumption that the scope moves as advertised, however, is not.

    B.B.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB & Bob,

    I just experienced (again) the uneven clicks phenomenon on my deer rifle a few weeks ago. It seemed like the incremental change in POI decreased with increasing number of clicks. This reminded me of tangential drives, i.e., the erector tube must be moving in an arc, so that near center the screw moves it more than when it is farther out. At least that's my guess, based on what happens with homebuilt clock drives for telescopes, which sometimes use a simple arm and screw to rotate the assembly; they have a similar issue that requires compensation.

  • Randy-in-VA Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Could you detail what steps that you took on the 490 trigger (Guest Blog maybe). I’m too much of a hacker to notice how scruffy the trigger is, but it would be nice to know how to work on it.

    BB,

    I received the parts for the 717 and just put the new rear sight in and started shooting again. I also bought the receivers and seals, and hope to replace all when I get some time. That’s a sweet deal I got. Best part, the only noise is the pellet hitting the back of the trap.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    QB-78: Thanks for the info on the tool. I did not see any literature the corresponded to it.

    Volvo

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Randy,

    I’m glad you got the chance to experience the 717 as it was designed to be used. Enjoy your pistol!

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Volvo,

    Isn’t that a surprise? The Chinese failed to document something about their airguns.

    I only know about it because I did a test of the QB 79 target rifle about 10 years ago and I found the same tool packed with the gun. Compasseco had to tell me what it was, because there was no literature at that time, either.

    B.B.

  • Scott298 Says:

    B.B.–Scott298-when I had my 350 out of the stock I used moly on the usual parts-then I went one step further-I took a q tip and used it to appy moly to every part of tne main spring I could reach, and I put it on pretty liberally. Now after several hundred shots when I cock the gun I – no noise. When I fire the gun there is no vibration or twang- she runs smooth and silent. But I do have a question for you-what I did wouldn’t compromise the velocity? And how many shots does it usually take before you start to loose performance of the gun meaning power and velocity.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Scott,

    I doubt the moly grease is the reason the gun is so smooth. It probably just broke in all the way. Moly usually doesn’t smooth the mainspring very much.

    A Diana rifle is expected to get at least 10K shots before the velocity starts to tail off. You might see as many as 20K.

    B.B.

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