by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
• What we’re doing
• Many things going on
• First things when mounting scopes
• Clean the gun and mount
• The mount
• Installing the mount
• Install the scope
• Install top caps and screws
• Align the vertical reticle
• Time to tighten the caps
What we’re doing
Today, I’m going to mount a scope for you and show some of my mounting techniques. These have been available for 10 years in the Pyramyd AIR articles pages as a 3-part series — Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3.
Many things going on
I’ll also add some things to this report. For starters, I’m making this a multiple blog by also reporting on the new Diana Bullseye ZR recoil reducing scope mount. And, I’m installing this mount on the BSA Supersport SE that I promised would have a Part 4. Another benefit! Finally, I selected the Aeon 8-32X50 AO scope with trajectory reticle for the rifle. The special trajectory reticle can be useful when shooting rifles at different distances. Aeon also has the same scope equipped with other reticles.
The Diana Bullseye mount is also sloped for some barrel droop compensation. Because of that, it ‘s important to orient the arrow on the mount toward the muzzle.
In today’s report, the focus will be on how to mount a scope. I’ll point out some features of the other products, but each will get its own special attention in other reports. This will just be your introduction to most of them.
First things when mounting scopes
I’ll assume you’ve read Part 1 of this report, and I don’t have to recap those subjects. The first thing you need to do is clean both the scope base on the gun and the bottom of the scope mount. Let me show you why.
Horrible, isn’t it? This is what happens to dovetails when they sit around for a couple days! I used a camera flash to highlight the dirt. Use a powerful flashlight and magnifier to see it stand out like this.
Clean the gun and mount
Use a cotton swab and alcohol to clean each dovetail (there’s one on the opposite side), and also clean out the vertical scope-stop pinhole. After that, use a toothbrush, or better yet, a makeup brush (finer bristles to get into smaller places) to brush out the remaining dirt.
Yes, it’s clean. Unless you have access to a clean room, this is about as good as it gets. The alcohol got rid of the oils that hold the dirt. and the fine brush swept them away.
I’m not going to tell you to not obsess over cleaning the dovetails. You’re going to do what feels right to you. Just bear in mind that there’s a vertical scope mount stop pin that’s going into that hole on top of the gun, so we could have greased the dovetails and the mount still would have held. Cleaning before an installation is just a good habit to get into.
The mount
The Diana Bullseye is a one-piece scope mount — meaning that both scope rings are attached to the same base. This kind of mount gives the least amount of flexibility for positioning the scope and is also very particular about which scopes are used because the rings cannot be moved. But because of how this Diana Bullseye mount works, this is the only way to mount it. Let me show you how it works.
On the bottom of the mount base, there’s a pin that’s inserted into that hole on top of the rifle. When the gun fires, the recoil tries to move the mount backwards and the pin contacts the back of that hole to prevent the mount from moving.
That pin on the underside of the Bullseye mount is inserted into the hole on top of the rifle when the mount’s attached. Slide the mount back (away from the muzzle) until the pin contacts the back of the hole, then tighten the base screws.
Each ring on the Bullseye mount has 2 setscrews that tighten the lower ring half to the guide pins.
Installing the mount
Once the mount is on the rifle, tighten the 3 screws on the base. Tighten them in turn — 1, 2, 3 and then go around again and again until they’re tight.
Now, remove the 8 screws from the ring caps and take the caps off the mount. This opens the rings to receive the scope. At this time, notice if the screws have oil on their threads. Some mounts do and others don’t. If there’s oil, remove it with alcohol. If you want to use blue Locktite on the cap screws, now is the time to apply it. These screws were dry.
Install the scope
Next, lay the scope in the lower rings on the rifle.
Ring caps off. Next step is to lay the scope in the lower ring halves.
The scope is laid in the rings.
Once the scope is in the rings, carefully shoulder the rifle and slide the scope to the point that the entire image can be seen. Be careful to not drop the scope from the rings. If you feel the need, you can put the top caps on the rings for this, but don’t tighten them yet.
Install top caps and screws
Once the eye relief is right, install the top caps and all 8 screws. Tighten each screw to the point that the scope can still be turned. The object is to get the same amount of cap separation on each side of the caps.
Tighten all 8 cap screws so the gap (arrows) on either side of both caps is equal.
Align the vertical reticle
Time to align the vertical scope reticle. I find this very easy to do by just shouldering the rifle and looking through the scope. Turn the scope tube until the vertical reticle is aligned. To do this, I simply extend the vertical reticle line in my mind down through the back of the spring tube. When the tube is bisected, the scope is aligned.
Some people make this into a terribly complex procedure, but here’s my thought. Since you’re the one shooting the rifle, the reticle has to look right to you — and you, alone. As long as it does, you’re finished.
Time to tighten the caps
Now it’s time to tighten the cap screws. This is done in a certain order. Tighten screws 1 through 8 in order, then back to 1 and go through 8 again and again until all screws are tight. Use the SHORT leg on the Allen wrench until it will turn no more. Then, tighten just a little more using the long leg as the handle.
Go in order 1 through 8 and back through the same order until the cap screws are tight.
Walther installs sights and scope mounts for Olympic competition guns this way. They even have Allen wrenches with long legs and loops on them for 2 fingers to fit into. They can tell when the long leg of the wrench starts bending, the screws are tight enough. Whatever you do, do not overtighten these cap screws.
Shoulder the rifle, again, and make certain that the vertical reticle is still in the right place. If it is, you’re done. If not, loosen the cap screws and start over.
It took me about 15 minutes to install this scope and mount. This was one of the easiest scope installations I’ve ever done — mostly because those Bullseye mounts installed so easily.
Bittersweet acknowledgement by Diana of their droop problem! They’re gonna help fix it but it ain’t lgonna be Cheap!
Reb
The .004″ droop compensation in these mount is not going to help much at all with droop in Diana rifles as my 48 required .0295″ correction in droop and the RWS lockdown droop mount has .025″ droop and the UTG mounts have 10 inches droop or approx. .035″ and 17.1 inches droop or.060″ respectively. So .004″ inches is maybe an half inch at 30 yards and is not enough for most Diana rifles to compensate for any droop at all
I think it is more for taking up the upward movement of the scope on the rail when fired so that the POA will be still consistent from shot to shot. In my opinion if the scope moves at all the gun cannot be consistent in its POI as there is at least .001″ clearance in the sliding rail of the mount and that can stack up to .003″ at a minimum of play in the rail of the mount which in turn is allowing the scope to shift off the POA by a few thousand of an inch at the mount and then multiply that by the distance shooting at and it can be off by inches at 50 yards.
It is a remedy for guns that are frequently breaking scope from heavy recoil issues by allowing the scope mount to cushion the impacts to the scope but it is not going to correct for enough droop to be worth what they want for it.
You can get a Vortek kit and put in the gun and reduce recoil to just about a non existent level.
BD
Ergo, a token effort with expensive bells&whistles thrown in for more dinro.
Reb
Yea in principle it is a good idea but in the real world it is just something with moving parts to wear and cause accuracy issues. it would only be a good candidate for a spring gun that you cannot keep from breaking scopes and then it would be better money spent on a good scope instead of this mount.
BD
Buldawg
Look closer. Its .040″ not .004″.
So .040″ will help with droop as you know.
Gunfun
You are right as I saw.04 and it registered as .004 so you are right and that’s about 8 or 9 inches of correction an 30 yards.
But it still does not eliminated the play in the shafts and scope mount that moves on the shafts so there is at least .001” clearance for free movement to occur between the base and scope mount which over time will wear and create more play which is going to affect accuracy and consistency at longer ranges..
I my self prefer a fixed mount or fix the reason the gun is breaking scopes rather than put a bandaid on a wound that will not heal.
BD
Buldawg
I agree. I’m skeptical right now of how repeatable the groups will be with that mount.
Will have to see how BB’s test goes with the mount and then with different mounts with the same scope mounted on the same gun.
If he will even do such test.
Gunfun
yea it a neat mount and it will cushion the impacts to scopes but is the consistency and repeatability there as well because there has to be some play for the system to work so kust how much is that play and how long will it hold its freeplay to an exacting tolerance.
Its like you say we will have to wait for further testing and the results to know if it up to the quality it needs to be to be a precision mount. And for 100 bucks it had better aim it self.
BD
Buldawg
It is rather expensive.
I saw that coming when someone mentioned Diana’ underhanded scoperail change
Gundfun
I have a hard time spending 100 plus bucks for a scope so I am not spending 100 bucks for a mount unless it is proved to the mount of all mounts and I don’t see that happening.
So no ZR bullseye mounts for me anytime soon.
Besides if my 48 shoots as smooth as the 40 does now I could put a cheap non springer rated scope on it and it would hold up just fine.
BD
Won’t it possibly cause more shock? Since most airgun recoil is relevant to spring guns, and their recoil is the majority FORWARD, then charging a spring on the rear kick will SLAM the scope on returning WITH the harder forward kick…. btw, I have that same caracal shirt…
RDNA,
I noticed that right away, but held my tongue. After all, if someone went to the trouble of building this mount don’t you think they would have tested it? I sure hope so, because, like you, I also think the springs work the wrong way.
But we shall see.
B.B.
Right, if it does what the physics seem to say then it should be reverse, but with the droop slant it couldn’t be turned around, which, though the recoil reduction would be directed better for firearms, they don’t need droop… :/ a few board room oversights , good start on the idea though, gimmicky yet, but it might test well for certain situations.
Wow!I believe
MY 2400 is gonna love the JSB’s and I’m gonna get something a little lighter than these 25.39’sto keep the velocity up for longer shots but they grouped twice as good as the14.3 discovery pellets or better @ 5/8 inch. I’ll try tochrony it with them outta curiosity
BB
RifledDNA,
I’m late and I just saw this.Also I never know where to poke my comments in,if i stepped on any one I apologize.
But BB “be careful kid, you’ll shoot your eye out.With a heavy scope you may want to add some eye relief distance.Safety glasses are a must.
I’m with RIfledDNA on this,The heavier back recoil is going to be transformed to a most damaging front recoil.The bulk of the mount is going to add mass to the scopes and together they are given velocity to create great momentum.Then a sudden stop.WHAM.Yup;this is a scope testing devise that will weed out the weaker scopes for you.
BB a question.Would I gain enough to make it worth it if I turned a regular droop compensating mount around for longer distance shooting?Would I gain enough clicks to keep my reticle tight for more downrange compensation?
Tin Can Man
TCM,
That’s an interesting question. The answer would depend on the slant of the mount. And I don’t know how well it would work, but it’s worth a try.
Go for it.
B.B.
TCM
Turning a droop mount around backwards won’t work. It will make the rifle shoot even lower.
twotalon
TCM and BB
Twotalon is right. If anything the back of the scope would even need to be higher for long distance shooting.
RDNA
That is the million dollar question as I tend to agree with you and if you go to you tube and type in ZR bullseye mount there is a video of it in action on a gun which is actually a RWS 54 so you can see the slow-motion of the 54 action recoiling back and the scope mount recoiling as well and watch it several times and you will see that it does in fact impart some recoil into the scope.
Whether the recoil imparted to the scope is worse or less damaging to the scope is unproven at this time I believe but hopefully BB can help report some further info on the actual help or hindrance of this new mount.
BD
BDF,
Tha problem with that is the 54’s action is already moving backwards on rails. It’s not fixed. If they designed it for that gun, it doesn’t work for any other model they make.
B.B.
BB
I will agree with you on that and I do not know if that mount was made for a model 54 or 56 so I cannot say as to whether it will work on any other models or not as it is as new to me as it is to you.
I only know that the video I was referring to shows it on a 54 or 56 with the recoil action and here is the video I am talking about so you are free to make your own conclusions.
https://vimeo.com/104382361
BD
RDNA
Do you know where the image that is my caricature originated from.
It was the trademark image of the motorcycle company that built the bike that Don Johnson rode in the Movie “Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man” with Don Johnson and Mickey Rourke.
They are long gone and out of business shortly after that movie came out in the 80s
BD
Very interesting that the bike for “Harley Davidson and the marlboro man” wasn’t a Harley.. Black Death, that’s a cool name for motorcycles, sounds like they could’ve done well, what happened?
RDNA
Yes it was a Harley FXR model that had been modified to have no rear fender and just a piece of flat steel rounded over the rear frame rails ahead of the rear shocks for a seat.
BD
RDNA
I don’t know the specifics about why they went out of business but had just heard it thru the grapevine shortly after the movie came out that they had went out of business. Otherwise I would not be displaying their company trademark.
BD
BD,
It looks like a 54 to me.
B.B.
BB
That’s what I thought myself as I have not seen a 56 to know if the upper rear of the action is different than a 54 as I do know the 56 has a thumbhole stock but was not sure what else was different.
So do you still think the ZR mount was built for use only on the 54/56 or should it work on other Diana’s as well as other brands altogether.
I have also read in other forums where the scopes with large turret housings will not fit due to the shallow floor on the ZR mount so I assume the scope you are mounting does clear the bottom floor of the mount so that the sliding mechanism will work properly.
BD
Buldawg
And I was saying the other day that I would like to see a low mount two piece fixed droop compensation rings.
If they would have the angle made into the ring where the scope seats and one ring higher than the other. It would be a more stable mount to the gun that way and eliminate having a stack of mounts if you will.
Gunfun
I not as keen on two piece mounts as they cannot only get misaligned in the barrel bore axis but also, the horizontal axis if the mount rails or clamp rail is not machined just right. I do agree they should make a two-piece drooper mount set for a low scope mounting on a gun that does not need clearance for magazines or breech loading ports .
I myself prefer one piece mount’s as they are more rigid and generally have a more precise alignment axis along the barrel bore of the two rings, but then they limit the size of the scope turret housing so each has it own advantages and disadvantages,
BD
Buldawg
But you know what you had to do to your one piece mount the other day.
You had to milk out the center section to accept the bigger turret housing that the Hawke scope uses compared to other brand scopes.
That is totally the reason why I don’t like the one piece mounts.
Suppose to say mill out.
Not milk out.
Phone got me again.
Gunfun
Yea you are correct there but that was only one instance in 5 one piece mounts that I have and it was due to the scope turrets housing being to big to clear the mount and not the mount as every other scope I have would fit just fine. The problem is that I have more Hawle scopes than other brands so I am hoping that the one going on my 40 does not require the same amount of droop compensation as the 48 did or I will be milling out another mount.
I wish they would make two piece mounts with the compensation built in to the two piece mounts at the same prices you can get good one piece mounts.
You see what you do to me when its late and I have to think my brain shuts down and I get all confused. But that it good as its just one more thing I can talk to the judge about in April at my SSD hearing to get my benefits.
That’s what I call a real bro by pointing out my issues without letting me know you are doing so, thanks for the more ammo LOL.
BD
Buldawg
All good.
And yes it seems like there is always something that don’t work out right when trying to put something together.
Even factory components that are suppose to work together don’t. They still end up needing modified.
Gunfun
yea I know I had to mill out the Sportsmatch mount to fit the Hawke scope in it but it just because the Hawke scope turret housing is bigger than most scopes.
As I said both type mounts have there advantages and disadvantage so you take the good with the bad.
I cannot say I like one better than the other as I just like the one that fits and works best and in the case of the 48 it was the sportsmatch mount and it needed some finesse to fit just right.
BD
Buldawg
That’s the best way to look at it.
Gunfun
I got some new chrony numbers for the 40 yesterday with the HO kit in it and it made a very good improvement and it may even get better as the seal seats better with more shots as it has roughly 150 shoots thru it and has just about stopped the smoking and burning smell, here are some number below and it looks to be between three pellets that are the 10.5 CPs, 10,34 JSB and 8.44 JSBs as far as average fps, ES and SD
JSB 10.34 = AVG = 745.3fps, ES = 28.20 SD = 8.i8
CP 10.5 = AVG = 760.5fps ES = 22.19 SD = 7.48
JSB 8.44= ASVG = 850.5fps ES = 10.97 SD = 3.87
Then the results of the other 5 pellets I tested.
CP 7.9 = ASVG= 884.1fps ES = 13.32 SD = 3.74
Beeman Kodiak 10.65 AVG = 751.1fps ES = 26.00 SD = 8.24
Beeman FTS 8.64 AVG = 817.5fps ES = 11.11 SD = 3.60
H&N Barracuda 10.65 AVG = 736.6fps ES = 28,88 SD = 8.48
RWS Superdomes AVG = 841.9fps ES = 13.88 SD = 5.09
So while they all increased from 100 to 150 fps which is the results I was after and no change in recoil of the gun as it is still just a very light bump and no actual thunk audible. next is mount the scope and shoot for droop with the three pellets that I hope to shoot best and get the droop sorted out for what scope mount it requires.
Then it will be accuracy testing with all of them to find the magic pellet and then off to FT matches with it.
BD
Buldawg
Well you were a buisy person yesterday.
The shooting groups will tell it all. Some of those fps spreads look good but don’t let that fool you.
I had pellets that only showed 6 fps spread then shoot them and ain’t no good. And just the opposite. I had some pellets that had a 20 fps spread and shoot great.
But at least you got the velocity back up in the gun.
I want to see what the groups are in the 40 then I would like to see how the 48 shoots when you get the kit in it. If I remember right that gun was already getting good groups.
And I shot the 1720T yesterday and it shoots just as good as the first one I had.
But I took the 1398 stock off last night and put my RAI adapter and AR butt stock that I had from Dave and going to shoot it today.
They made those 1399 stocks to low where you rest your cheek.
The gun already feels more comfortable holding it now. So actually getting ready to go shoot now.
Suppose to say 1399 stock.
Gunfun
Go to bottom as there are no reply buttons.
BD
I’ve been having some issues getting my QB-36 dialed bam in after pulling the little 4×20 off and swapped it for the 4×32 that I had on the Regal back when I first got it,it took some playing with theeyepiece to make it usable for the shorter ranges and it’s hitting low from what I can recall. I’ll be opening the back door after it warms up tomorrow to keep my pellets from putting runs in my carpet ad using the fence and slab of my 6’x8′ patio that the police use the parking lot on the other side of as a speedtrap on schooldays
Yes–I’ll buy 0.040. 0.004 is just a straight mount that wasn’t manufactured terribly precisely, right Gunfun1? 😉 IIRC, I measured about 0.030 over 4″ in my RWS Lock Down 1-Pc Barrel Droop Compensation mount on my 34. It still wasn’t enough to get my scope’s elevation adjuster to the middle of its range (to obtain a well-tensioned erector spring).
I keep talking about it and I really need to find time to document the latest version of my epoxy ring bedding technique. (My new technique is completely reversible.) I have something like 0.060″ / 4″ total drop on my 34’s Lock Down mount ring surfaces (doublling the original compensation) and the scope tube has perfect stress free engagement in its custom bedded ring surfaces. Essentially, my technique results in the same benefits as Burris Pos-Align rings but with the potential for more compensation–certainly more than the 30 mm Pos-Align inserts anyway.
-Cal
Calinb
The RWS lock down mount has exactly .025″ of correction and on my 48 gave me about 6 inches of correction at 30 yards which was still an inch low of dead center as with zero correction mounts it shot 6 to 7 inches low.
I then tried the UTG 17.1 inch correction mount or .060″ of difference from front to rear with low weaver mount rings that GF1 sent of his to try and my 48 shot 10 inches high.
You have obviously made your own method to compensate with the RWS mount but there is also two other options out there should you choose to try them. UTG makes a 10 inch droop mount that with low weaver rings keeps the scope very low on the gun but since I did not try one of those I cannot give your the exact number of inches of correction it has built in but if the RWS is .025″ has roughly 6 inches at 30 yards and the 17.1 inch has .060″ of difference from one end to the other then the 10 inch UTG rail should be approximately .0416″ difference from one end to the other. There is also a company called Sportmatch that makes a mount with 75mm or .0295 inches correction which equals 7.08″ inches of correction and AOA carries those mounts although they are pricey.
I know it sound like a lot of trouble to get the exact correction for the droop I had with the 48 but that Sportsmatch mount put my POA right at 1/2 inch high of dead center and I would rather adjust the elevation turret down in compensation than up as it loads the spring more instead of relaxing it. If you are using scope that has a large turret housing then you will have to mill out the middle area like I did to clear the turret housing. My Hawke scope did clear on the RWS mount so it required no modification to it but was still hitting one inch low and I wanted dead on or just slightly high at 30 yards which is why I went with the Sportsmatch mount.
Just my two cents worth as I don’t like shimming or epoxying and lapping as you did since it seems you may have had more work than I did to get just the right correction for my amount of droop. There are several adjustable mounts out there but I don’t trust the adjustment to stay put once set so I prefer solid mounts that cannot shift.
BD
Cal
You really do need to write up a blog on your scope bedding. I would be very interested in try it out.
And yes that 17.1″ UTG mount that Buldawg talks about above was mine. Its .060″ and it was just enough to get my .177 Diana 54 Air King in the middle of the elevation turret adjustment.
Another thing being able to bed a scope how ever you want would be good for lower powered air guns shooting out past say 20 yards. I know if I got a 10 grn. pellet shooting at 500 fps and I zero at 50 yards (because its a fixed target and that gun shoot 95% of the time at that distance) that I got to crank a lot of up elevation to zero the scope.
So your bedding idea would allow me to get that scope on that lowered power gun zeroed at 50 yards and in the middle of the turret adjustment.
Yup–it should work for that. I’ll be bedding some standard two piece rings on my Benji 392 BE#1 scope mount for my demonstration. Even though it doesn’t have any barrel droop, I see no reason not to use the “bottom half” of the scope adjustment range. Anything that you never use in the bottom half just results in an unnecessarily loose erector spring and limits your maximum up elevation range.
The way I look at it, ideally a scope’s reticle crosshair should point at the apogee of the projectile’s ballistic trajectory when the elevation dial is “screwed into the scope” and dialed all the way down (clockwise when viewed from the top). This moves the image of the crosshair upward relative to the target image and maximizes the scopes POI “up” elevation adjustment potential (achieved by turning the elevation dial counter-clockwise when viewed from the top). This setup enhances the scopes ability to reach both the nearest and farthest ranges possible by dialing.
BTW, as when operating a manual milling machine and thinking about which way the table will move in response to hand wheel movements, I use the “right hand rule” as a mnemonic aid when dialing a scope for either elevation or windage changes. When you think of the scopes dials/turrents as a screw and view the “screw head” from the side the of the scope on which the dial is located (conventionally, this is from above for elevation and from the right for windage) the POI moves in the direction that a right hand threaded screw would move when turned into or out of the scope. (Or you can also point the thumb of your right and and curl your fingers, as mathematicians and physicists do–your thumb indicates the direction of POI shift when you rotate the dial in the direction of your right-hand curled fingers.) If you visualize the right hand rule in your mind before turning a dial, you’ll never need to look at the “U/D” or “R/L” arrows on the scope and you’ll never turn the dial the wrong way! Every scope I’ve ever used works like this.
With the scope elevation adjustment set up on the projectile’s apogee, any point along the projectile path, near or far, can then be selected with the elevation dial by turning it in the POI “up” direction (“unscrewing” it, which results in lowering the tension on the erector spring, but at least the tension will be as always be as high as it can be at any given range). Of course you’ll eventually run out of usable range on both ends, but this setup maximizes that range.
Using a ballistics software program to plot trajectory, it is clear that the shape of the projectile ballistic curve does not change much when shooting between reasonable minimum and maximum ranges on level ground–the curve mostly just “tilts” upward (as one raises the muzzle of the gun) to reach longer ranges). Hence the technique I suggest above works, but it’s best leave a little extra “down POI” adjustment “floor room” to accommodate a slight change in the shape of the trajectory curve and the different curve that result when different projectiles that are anticipated to be used are shot.
Hmm–maybe I just wrote the motivation section of my Scope Ring Bedding guest blog!
Cal
That is a good tip for turret movement.
And from doing my mnaul machining all these years I don’t even think about what way to move the table.
Have you ever used a surface grinder before. What’s that saying of can you rub your head and pat your stomach at the same time and then try to switch and pat your head and rub your stomach. That’s what surface grinding is like when your operating your top wheel coming down and your side wheel left and right. While keeping time with how much material you take off. Or using the wheel that controls the in and out of the table depending on what your grinding.
And I seriously can do it with my eyes closed.
I’ve never used a surface grinder, Gunfun1. Sounds like there’s a learning curve involved (a period of scrap production)!
Cal
Not really any scrap at all. The up/down wheel and the in/out wheel i s marked with half thousands lines. The side to side wheel you use to move the part your working in under the grinding wheel.
You just got to stop and measure every now and then to make sure you don’t take to much material off.
And there’s of course more to it than that. You can use a vise on the table and there are different fixtures.
I use it 50% of the time making something and the other 50%of the time sharpening cutting tools. Like reamers, chasers, taps, drills and knee tools and insert holders for the carbide inserts.
Cal
And I should say that they probably don’t even make a drooper mount that could be used for that lower powered 50 yard gun I just talked about.
I bet it would take .080″ to get that scope in the middle of the turret adjustment.
So your idea of bedding could work for custom setups that people don’t usually try to do.
But I hope its a clean process because I tend to make a mess when it comes to epoxy or glue. Just kidding. But is it messy?
I think you might get 0.080″–depending on the rings and screw lengths. (You could probably use longer screws, if necessary too.) I’ll know better after I do my demo bedding production and blog. I’ll see how it looks at .080 even though I don’t need that much for my 392.
I’ve bedded several stocks so I have a good feeling for how the goop behaves and how much to use. Release compound limits the potential for any permanent mess, but this is why I need to take plenty of photos (and maybe even post a link to a video). Photos should reduce a first-timer’s likelihood of making a mess! Really, it’s no big deal if you have a feeling for how much goop to use and where to swab or paint-on the release.
Cal
You really need to get busy with that blog and video on scope bedding.
When something like that comes about I like to give it a try just because I think that kind of stuff is fun. And when it works out nice for given application well that makes it even more worthwhile.
I’ll be watching for the blog.
Calinb
I will strongly second GF1s recommendation of you doing a scope ring bedding blog as I to am very interested in just how you do it and the right way to do it for first timer so we don’t make a gooey mess and end up with the amount of compensation we require for the particular application.
It can save some people a lot of time and frustration in getting their scope set to use its maximum adjustment range of the scope they have.
BD
Don’t know what type of “goop” you use or plan on using to shim the inside of your scope rings but two part epoxy that comes in a stick is what I’ve used successfully. It has the consistency of modeling Clay and you have a lot of time to work with it.
Kevin
I used Brownells Acraglas, because the properties of a good stock bedding epoxy are desirable in this application too (extremely low shrinkage and low compressibility, and virtually no tendency to run or droop, which is usually a big problem with most conventional epoxies, but not stick epoxies of course). Acraglas also comes with black dye. I think any epoxy that’s popular for bedding rifle stocks is probably a good choice.
One problem with a stick epoxy (I don’t know, because I’ve never used it for this purpose), is you might end up disturbing the release compound before getting it worked into the surfaces being bedded and achieving full contact. You don’t want to bond your scope to your rings! Also, the clearances are quite small and I think it might be difficult to squeeze out something as thick as modelling clay. Again, I don’t know, but I know that Acraglas is very easy to apply to rings and get full and even contact and I always have some on hand and also a full set of dye colors.
They can and should correct the droop problem at the factory. But then again this gives them a chance to sell you something else and make more money.
Pete
Pete
You are exactly right in that its just something else you have to by.
Harley was the same way as they make the bikes run just good enough to pass the EPA test and then sell boatloads of screaming eagle hop up parts so you make your new anemic Harley actually run good and I would wager to say they make more from P&A sales than from the bike sales themselves and as a matter of fact I know they do because when I worked for Harley the P&A sales was always a higher profit maker than the bike sales were.
BD
Can’t let you forget ll that money for the garb.
Reb
Oh no when it comes to a Harley buying the bike is just the tip of the iceberg and then they have the hook in you and reel you in for all the trimmings to make you poor and them rich.
BD
BD,
The droop on this mount is 0.04″, not 0.004″.
B.B.
BB
That was my bad as it was late last night when I was reading the report and clicked on the link to the mounts and had a brain fart and saw.004 instead of the .040 that it should be so I am sorry for the confusion I may have caused,
BD
B.B.
The YouTube video sounds like 78 playing at 33 1/3 here on the blog. Going to YouTube it plays fine.
I like the tip on cleaning the rail and tightening sequence for the cap bolts. Cleaning I never did and I was not using the correct tightening sequence.I’m going to start using both techniques in the future to mount my scopes.
David
David,
I just watched the video here and it played fine. Must be a browser issue?
B.B.
I hope them guide rails have flats machined on them for the set screws to seat in.
If not I see the rings moving on the giude rods if there is nothing to keep them from sliding.
I guess you can tighten the heck out of the setscrews just to be safe.
And nice job on the instructions though BB.
Buldawg,
I may wanna get the receiver on my 2400 tapped for some see through rings I picked up while setting up the Regal and I’ll be gathering the parts of my 3120 in the next few days.
Reb
Reb
Why do you want to tap the receiver when you can get some of those UTG adapters I sent you the link to and then go to wally world and by some see thru weaver mounts that have a weaver base that the adapters fit right in to the see thru mounts and then you can use your iron sights as well as a scope.
it will cost less than you having someone drill and tap the receiver and if you do it your self can you get the hole perfectly inline with the barrel also.
BD
Buldawg
I think he got those raised scope mounts from Walmart. I think that have a big round opening so you can see thru for iron sights or open sights or whatever you want to call them.
They have a hole in them and no dove tail clamps.
Gunfun
That’s why he needs the UTG adapters that go from a dovetail to weaver mount by snapping inside the weaver mount of the rings and are spring loaded to compress and grab the dovetail. I have used them on several of my crosamn steel breaches and the work real good and stay secure.
BD
Buldawg
I know what your talking about now with the adapters.
The 300s I got from RR has them on it.
But I was just explaining what rings I believe he got and I’m referring to my reply about the Walmart see thru rings.
Gunfun
if they are the ones I have got from wally world they fit a weaver rail so all he needs are the UTG adapter and they will mount right on the dovetails .
BD
Buldawg
No the raised see thru mounts I’m talking about have a 1/8″ hole in the flat spot of the bottom of the mount it has no dove tail clamp or weaver or picatinny clamp on the bottom.
And the see thru spit is at least a one inch diameter.
I’ll see if I can’t find the mount I’m talking about and post it.
Gundfun
So that mount is supposed to be secured to the gun by screws into the receiver top instead of with weaver or dovetail grooves.
BD
Buldawg
Yes exactly.
I do believe that there is a adapter that your suppose to buy and then those rings attach with a screw/bolt.
I tryed to copy and paste a link for the rings I’m talking about but I’m on my phone and don’t know what I’m doing yet with the copy paste thing.
Buldawg
Search
See thru 2 piece scope rings
They will stand out when you see a picture.
Gunfun
I searched for see thru mounts and the ones that you and Reb are talking about are built to fit specific guns that already have the screw hole tapped in the top of the receivers so it would be more trouble to try and make holes in the 2400 breech to fit those rings than it would be to just get rings like I was talking about from wally world for 10 bucks and use The UTG adapters and be done with it.
If you don’t get the hole in the top of the breech right then you have a breech that is marked up and still does not work and if Reb was going to have someone do the work for him it would cost more than 25 bucks to have the holes drilled and tapped just to fit those mounts, and then they may not be in perfect alignment with the barrel axis so its more trouble than it worth to me is what I believe.
BD
Buldawg
Right there is no way they would be good for mounting on air gun dovetails.
Plus the scope would be mounted ten miles high above the barrel.
You know what I think about a high mounted scope.
Gunfun
Yea those mounts are not a good idea to be used on an airgun dovetail and most likely would not fit flush or stable on it as well.
It most definitely would make the scope a mile high.
BD
A little overkill for an surging but that’s what they are.
I still got the mounts that came on the Centerpoint that I sent back mixed up with the mounts that I bought separately but I’m pretty sure you’re right.
I was trying to come up with a use for them instead of sending them back but the more I thought about it the worse things got
Reb
Ate the mounts you got from wally world use a weaver mount and have a large oval hole below where the scope rings are and use two straps to secure the scope to the cradle at each end.
If so those UTG adapter I sent you a link to will work great and here is the link again.
BD
Buldawg
That’s what the 300s has.
Reb
I would not try and drill and tap the breech on your new 2400 but just get some mounts from wally world and if you want to be able to use the iron sights as well as a scope then you just need the ones that are made by weaver that have an oval hole to see the iron sights thru and use those UTG adapters to mount to the breech is what I would do if it were me.
BD
Gunfun,
Did ya cstch the part where I pulled the springloaded lamp on rear sight off my 760 and mounted it on the barrel of my 2400?
Reb
REB
yea those snap fit 760 sights work good for a rear sight on those 2400s and if you can find a rear sight from a B3-2 they will also fit the dovetail of the 2400 and have micrometer click adjustments for elevation and windage.
BD
Buldawg
What kind of sight are you and Reb talking about?
Reb
No I didn’t. What do you mean by spring loaded lamp.
Did your phone get you already?
Do you mean spring loaded clamp?
Explain please.
Gundfun
He means the clamp on rear sight that crosman is using on their 760s know that are a piece of spring steel that you push down on the barrels and the spring force of the way they are shaped hold them tight on the barrel and the use the plastic stair ramp to adjust for elevation and you have to bend it for windage.
BD
Buldawg
Ok that’s what I was thinking. But wasn’t sure.
Yeah! It’s been getting me just about every time I let my guard down. If you see something I say that don’t look finished I prolly dropped it again.
Reb
Reb
Yea my phone just plain drives me crazy sometimes.
Mine keeps slipping in my hand and making me hit stuff I don wanna.
Gunfun and Reb
I am out of here as I can barely see the keyboard so talk tomorrow.
later BD
Buldawg and Reb
Same here getting tired.
Tomorrow
Goodnight!
Always fun to talk scopes!
I have spent way too much time on those articles already, trying to mount a combo scope on a magnum springer. The good news is it was free, the bad news is it was so cheap, lol.
Anyhoo, I am looking forward to the rest of this, and the tips about cleaning the rails and screws with alcohol are right on. I have rarely seen a cleaned screw need to be lock-tited after being properly installed and tightened with an alternating pattern like you have here.
I hope you are ready for the weekend! How is the weather treating you folks in Texas? I hear there is some ice causing problems.
BD, Reb and GF1,
What do you guys do, stay up all night just so you can read this blog as soon as it posts? LOL!
Rr
I cannot speak for Reb and GF1 other than that Reb does not work just as I do not work and GF1 works second shift and is off on Fridays so Reb and me don’t always get to bed early and most nights I don’t sleep well due to leg cramps and my arthritis causing me to wake up. GF1 goes to bed at varying time as he gets home at 1 am or so, why are you jealous that you cannot stay up late enough to be the first poster LOL
But I only stay up to see if the blog is one that interests me so I can be the first to post LOL
It is not by purpose on my part but just my body trying to rule my mind and some nights I get an hour of sleep at best and nap thru the day if my body want me to .
BD
Unfortunately, I understand.
Ah, to have the energy of youth and the wisdom of age!
RR
I want to be like Benjamin Button and start out old and wise and grow younger every day but even smarter as you feel better with every day as well.
If only science could stop the hands of time so we can all be forever youthful.
My problem is I have an 18 year old brain trapped in a 59 year old body and they don’t always agree and lately they are agreeing less and less. So while I still remember how to everything I did when I was 18 my body does not cooperate and allow me to do it the same as I did when I was 18 or if it does let me do it then it punishes me for a week afterwards.
It is a no win situation at best and ultimate torture at worst.
BD
You are that old?! I am about 13 in a 59 body.
Yeah, I had to quit cutting firewood this past year and installed a heat pump. That really hurt the toy fund. Ah well, that is where the wisdom of age steps in and reassures me that I do not need every new toy I see. I do not have much time to play with the ones that I have.
RR
I matured early what can I say that and 18 was one of my best years of my life as Florida had just passed the 18 year old law October of 73 and I turned 18 in the last semester of high school on January 15th so since all I had was a shops assistant class each day for 45 minutes from 9am to 9.45 am.
The 15th of January I stayed home from school and went in the next day with an excuse written by me and signed by me since I was now legally an adult and handed it to the dean of women how always approved the absentee excuses. She looked at and them at me and said you wrote this excuse and signed it, I said yes mam I am an adult now and my parents are no longer responsible for me so that’s my excuse. she refused to sign it and excuse my absence.
This went on the rest of the week as it was a Monday and I kept giving her the exact same excuse paper and on that Friday I said that I will keep this up as long as she would like but the fact is that I am an adult and by all laws of the state she has to sign and grant me my excused absence. Grudgingly she signed it and I went to my 45 minute shops assistant class.
I did this at least ten more time before the end of the school year and she would give me a dirty look as by now there were other seniors that had turned 18 and were doing the same thing.
That summer the school board passed a law that if you still lived at home with your parents that the written excuse must be written by them.
Then when the 18 year old law was repealed in October of 77 I was 21 so it made no difference to me. So that why my mind is stuck at 18 years old.
BD
RR
I’ll go with Buldawgs reply.
I get off work at night and read the blog when the house is nice and quiet and peaceful.
The piece and quite thing don’t happen to often during the day with my wife, two teenage daughters, and a dog and cat all running around .
So yea I enjoy sitting down reading the blog at night when I get home.
Gunfun1,
Yeah, you 3 really “went to town” so early. I usally hit the “blog” 2:30~3:30 and I was going “holy cow”.
At any rate, as for the external adjustable scope rings, I am surprised you have not “whipped” up set on your CNC Brigdeport. Some pipe, some mig, some tapping and nuts and bolts,…and you got it. Maybe crude, but hey, give it a try with an old scope that still works.
Chris, USA
It just so happened to be one of those nights.
We were in the same place at the same time. And when airguns come up. Well you see what happens.
And you know what Chris I really never thought about making something like that.
I already got a idea. Take some 30 mm rings and put a 1″ scope in the saddle and tighten down the scope ring caps.
I could drill and tap 3 locations to put a set screw and lock but.
And just like that I could float the scope. All would be needed was to have the turret centered. At that point they would be left in touched. Of course unless a few clicks would be needed for a fine adjustment.
It would be way easy to modify a set of rings.
Should say and lock but.
And turret untouched.
Man this phone is a pain the you know what.
lock nut
And again. lock nut
I wanted to make sure it does what I say.
And believe it or not I had to correct what the phone wanted to say again.
Gunfun1,
See…you got it “cooking” already. 🙂
I was thinking of 30mm. scope tube. But your 1” in 30mm. rings would work fine. Could you get enough adjustment for a severe drooper?
I would be concerned of the set screws crushing the tube so maybe curved “shoes” under the set screw tips.
Also, think about it,..your (scope ring) to (scope tube) pressure has now been reduced to 6 very small points. This is where a mount like the Bullseye could really be a benifit.
Just some ideas……
Chris, USA
I think there would be enough adjustment for droop.
You could adjust the back of the scope up and the front down.
And on each ring one of the screws would actually need to be a spring loaded deal that would need attached to the scope tube. That would need to also keep the scope from shifting like when used on a spring gun with its recoil characteristics.
The one adgustin screw would need to be on top and one on the right. If you didn’t keep the adjusting screws in those positions your adjustmts wouldn’t move true.
It would be more than drilling and tapping 6 holes in some scope rings. Not saying it couldn’t be done and worked out. Just saying it would be a little more involved than it looks.
Gunfun
all you would be making in essence is a live center just like you use on a long shaft you have to support its full length while performing work on one end of so it rotates true on it s axis for the full length of the shaft,
The only difference would be the scope tube is not rotating but just being aligned with the Barrels bore.
BD
B.B.,
Question,…(Is there some formula or chart) that will tell you what to expect from a drooper mount or rear shimming at given yardages?
As Buldawg mentioned above (for example)…10″/.035 and 17.1″/ .060 at 30yds.
Thanks, Chris
Chris, USA
If I remember right when Buldawg was trying to figure out how to get his 48 to be in the center of turret adjustment he did run across a chart and formula if I remember right. And I think it was a estimating tool and not a exact true number to the gun he was shooting.
Once the ballistics of the pellet came into play the chart wasn’t true to what his gun shot. He had to shoot his gun at a target and with his turret centered and he used a standard scope mount.
And if I remember right me and him was texting back and forth and he was texting pictures of his target. He knew that the mount he got from me produced I think he said above a 10″ high group when he shot. And that mount was .060″ of difference from front to back.
So I believe we figured that half of 10″ would be 5″ high with .030″ and I think that was 30 yards. And I remember we figured out what one revolution of the turret represented to how the the pellet was changing poi on the target. That way we knew how many turns we needed to get the turret back to center.
So the .030″ drooper mount made his gun shoot a little high. Which is good be cause then you can adjust your turret down to get on zero and allow the spring to have a little more tension to keep it more stable.
So bottom line it boils down to shooting the gun. Because any formula be only something to get you close. The only way to know for sure is shoot your gun and compensate to know for sure where you put your turret adjustment in relation to droop.
Chris,USA
I don’t know the formula as I am sure there is one but I did some figuring by the amount of distance my 48 shot at 30 yards and knowing the height difference of the mounts by measuring them with calipers to know that a RWS lock down mount states its .025″ difference which I confirmed with my calipers and my 48 hitting 6 inches low at 30 yards I used the formula of 6.000 inches divide by .025 = 240 so if you reverse the numbers to 240 x .025 = 6.000 inches. Which is the correct amount for the RWS lock down mount.
So for the 17.1 inch UTG mount that hit 10 inches high with the 48 and measures 0.060′ difference from front to rear if you use the same formula of 17.100 inches divided by .060 = 285 and in reverse it would be 285 x ,060= 17.100 inches.
Since I needed to hit 1 inch higher than what the RWS mount gave me I started plugging in numbers into the formula as I knew it was more than .025″ so I just started by using the 240 from the RWS mount formula above and changing the .025′ in small increments larger till I came up with the amount of difference I needed to give as close to 7 inches as possible for what mounts were available and I ended up with 240 X .0295′ = 7.08 which in my case was the mount made by Sportsmatch that has 75mm or .0295″ of correction built into it and are available from AOA,
It made my 48 hit 1/2 inch high at 30 yards so it will require just some slight down adjustment on the elevation to hit the dead center of the bulls at 30 yards.
BD
BD and GF,
Thank you for taking the time to list all of that. I will re-read later and make some notes. With all that actual data, I will have some good estimations on compensation shims/mounts should I require a need for one in the future.
The .22 TX required a .009 shim to raise POI 60mm/2.375″ at 41′ or 13.66 yds., at intitial sight in.
The scope was re-mounted since, but ended up with a total of 44 clicks up and 20 left, along with the shim,…from factory setting.
Chris, USA
No problem. And scopes is always one of my favorite subjects to talk about.
And suppose to be in the upper 50’s here Saturday and Sunday.
Way better than teens and single digits. I can already feel the spring fever setting in.
🙂
Gunfun1,
And yes, they are all estimates untill you actually shoot.
On ordering more pellets, (should I still try weight variations), OR (stick closer to the weight that seems to work the best so far)? As we discussed, the JSB 15.89 seem to be the best so far.
This question is based solely on your own trial and error experience. The weights I have tried are 13.43, 15.89, 14.50, 21.14 All domed.
On a side note, the more I shoot, the better I get with all of them,….to at least some degree.
To clarify, not looking for a weight recomendation,…just asking if I should stay close to the weight that seems to work best so far?
Chris, USA
The one thing that I have found about weight is it does help in windy conditions.
But no do not base youR pellet choice on weight alone.
If one pellet keep showing itself as the better of the bunch in your gun then use that pellet till you find a better one.
It don’t matter to me what it looks like, what it weighs or anything else.
If it performs to what I want then all the other qualities don’t matter.
I want a accurate shooting gun and pellet that’s it.
Gunfun1,
Thanks,….I will keep my options open on weight. And for that matter,..all other factors as well.
Chris ,USA
Amen
Hey some GREAT reading on scope selection, projectile weight to damage potential and just plain smart stuff, Jack O’connor’s “The Hunters Shouting Guide” circa 1978 revised…. awesome read for hunters and shooters in general, talks powder but the concepts all cross over, especially the scope and penetration talk.
*Shooting guide, not shouting. That reminds me, BB, I have a suggestion for a future blog, and maybe could have a slot for installments, the most influential and interesting persons of shooting sports. You could do one with the top however many overviewed or give each one an article when you need a filler and we need a history lesson/interesting read about the shapers of the field. From Browning and Minie to O’connor and Gaylord! You’d have plenty of material that would be great to learn and discuss
RDNA,
That would be a good topic, I think.
B.B.
Chris,USA
Just so you are aware that it will be easier to determine the correction for droop if you use 30 yards as a distance as that is the distance that most scope mount manufactures use to provide the inches of compensation their mount will correct for and will make the deciding of which mount to use easier.
Here is a chart at the bottom of the page for this BKL drooper mount that I used to help determine which mount was best for my 48, but I am not completely sure that the formula they use is accurate for all mounts but rather just for the BKL mounts but it is another guideline you can use.
http://www.straightshooters.com/bkl-260d7-scope-mount.html
BD
BD,
Thanks. Added to favorites for further review. And yes, I figured from reading all the comments that 30yds. seemed to be the “gauge” to go by. Thank you for affirming that.
If….I find that shooting at further distances, I get the “left, on, right” issue going on,…I might consider adjustable mounts for barrel/ scope alignment (windage) at at the same time take care of any elevation issues. I figure carefull set up and loctite and all should be good.
However,….what about the “yawl”, if that is correct???, refering to the ever widening spiral. If that plays in, then specific windage adjustments, at different distances, would be the only way to correct that.
Of course, this would be with one pellet type and one gun.
Chris, USA
Do you know why they use 30 yards to reference their droop mounts at?
Gunfun1,
Ahhhh,…the “Grasshoppers” first test……. 😉
While I’m sure I could answer better with some review….I would say that 30 yds. is the (mid range) for most airguns and where it shoots the most “flat”.
Chris, USA
This answer is based off of my exsperiances.
Almost all of my air guns shoot their highest trajectory at 25 to 30 yards.
So there could be a reason for the droop mounts to be based off of 30 yards.
But again that is what I have seen.
To many variables involved to say that 25 or 30 yards is the ideal distance but I guess they had to get a determined standard distance to base their droop mounts off of. Probably a average distance.
Gunfun1′
I think that fps at muzzle would be a factor as well as pellet weight.
As for the “Grasshopper”,..he’s outa’ here. Can’t keep up with “you night owls”.
But fear not, or maybe do,…I shall return 😉
Chris, USA
Yep and that’s another one of those variables.
And I know you will return.
55 degrees tomorrow and I’m getting up early and going to make a day of shooting.
See ya tomorrow.
Chris,.USDA
Hawke scope make an adjustable mount that all adjustments can be made with scope and mount in place on the gun and uses micro click adjustments on a hand wheel that once you get the droop compensation you need with the mount you just lock the adjuster ring in place with two set screws and I wish I had found it before I got my Sportsmatch mount but it still may be in the cards. Here is the Hawke web page with the 4 different mounts they make as there are two for 1 inch scopes and 11mm or weaver rails and two 30mm with 11mm or weaver rails.
http://www.hawkeoptics.co.uk/hawke-adjustable-rings-mounts.html
BD
Thanks for sharing the link! I don’t know that I’ll ever be able to afford a Diana but I’ve shot one and fell in love with that gun and besides they’re not the only manufacturer to put out guns that don’t hit where they’re aimed.
Reb
You got that right as there are many guns that require droop correction besides just Diana guns. I like the fact that this is the only adjustable mount out there that can be adjusted without having to remove the scope and mount from the gun to adjust.
BD
BB,
I was so afraid you were going to go through all that fancy, smancy leveling stuff. What a con job some of those retailers have pulled off there. Have you seen the cost of some of those scope leveling kits?!
Don’t get me wrong. In recent years I have considered mounting a level on my air rifles to help insure repeatable holding and I even have a built in level in the scope that is on my Edge, but I think most of it is a little bit over the top. I have done pretty good for quite a few years without one.
I do like that new Diana mount! I have been waiting all year for them to show up in the US! I saw that PA is also starting to carry the N-Tech finally! I am looking forward to a review on that thing also!
BB,
I do not remember if we discussed this stuff or not, but is this air rifle made by Gamo and is the barrel pivot a pin or screw?
RR,
I believe the SE is made by BSA in the UK.
The barrel pivot does appear to be a pin.
B.B.
On Hundred Dollars for the mount? Really? I’m sure I will have get one of those right away.
Mike
I’m still wondering..why put Airgun scope makers the adjustments into the scope’s body, instead of using plain tubes and precisely adjustable scope mounts? This would give us a much greater ajdustment range, improve optical quality (as the lenses are kept perfectly aligned), and I doubt it would be more expensive.
Hey Mel,
Are you looking for something like this?
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/m634181.html
Or this?
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/m334151.html
Or this?
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/m634321.html
Or maybe even this?
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/vintage-reproductions/william-malcolm-8x-usmc.html
I myself am trying to figure out how to pick up one or two of these myself. 😉
RR
I always have liked those scopes.
I would love to have just one.
GF1,
When you think about it, they are not that bad a price. It is my understanding the optics are real nice.
If you buy a decent scope and mounts today you are likely going to pay at least $200, more likely $300+.
I have seriously been thinking of putting this one on top of my 1906 BSA.
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/m634181.html
I have also been considering buy a reproduction ’59 Sharps and putting one of these on top.
https://hi-luxoptics.com/index.php/m634321.html
RR
Either one of those scopes would look wonderful on your gun.
I totally like how the mounting system is on those scopes.
BB, off -topic, but I decided to go ahead with the idea of writing a blog in Portuguese. Lets see where that takes me.
FRED_BR,
Go for it. But when you do, remember this. If you get people interested in your blog, they will want it to continue forever. So don’t start it unless you want to carry it on.
B.B.
I promise I will do my best to take good care of my readers as you do!
Fred_BR
Should you decide to do the blog, how about an English translation for your friends in the States?
BB is always happy to have a day off.
Shoot first. Ask questions later.
Lots of discussion and agreement that if the scope and gun move independently from one another during the shot cycle that this will ruin accuracy. Not true.
This new mount from Diana MIGHT rob accuracy but it won’t be because it allows the gun a scope to move independently from one another. It will be because of poor design or manufacturing tolerances.
Benchrest shooters set world records with scopes set up to allow the gun and scope to move independently from one another. Think Unertl and Malcolm with mounts that have external adjustments.
Why don’t makers offer these types of scopes with mounts that have external adjustments to solve airgunners problems someone asked. They are still made. Think Leatherwood. Why aren’t airgunners using these? COST and challenges mounting these scopes.
kevin
Kevin,
I agree. But when I approached Edith wit the idea, she thought it wouldn’t be understood by today’s younger shooters. A mount that adjusts? How could that work?
I have a Weaver with external adjustments from the 1940s that I want to send to Leapers for evaluation, but Edith thinks the idea is a waste of effort. Mainstream shooters will not want it.
I agree, but then I see those WW II sniper scope copies that are being made now and they seem to be doing well.
What do you think?
B.B,.
B.B.,
If anyone would have an open mind about producing a reproduction of the weaver with external adjustments it would be leapers. In order for it to succeed it would be costly which seems contrary to the business model of Leapers.
Don’t know much about the reproduction sniper scopes. Read a glowing review of the enfield reproduction by Numrich. Never looked through one though. Sorry.
kevin
Kevin,
The market for scopes with external adjustments is small. Companies like to sell things that hundreds of thousands and hopefully millions of people will want to buy. I don’t see that for a scope with external adjustments. I think we’re talking thousands — not even tens of thousands. These types of scopes will have to be more expensive since sales will be limited and the cost needs to be amortized over much fewer units sold.
On the other hand, what the heck do I know? All I can say is that this is how I approached this concept.
Edith
Edith and BB
I know if they can manufacture a scope with external adjustments like Kevin and RR talked about and linked to that could have the cost kept in the couple hundred dollar range I think they would sell more than they expected to as I would be willing to give one a shot as it far easier to be able to adjust the scope to the barrel if the scope sit in adjustable mounts, but as you say the cost would most likely be far higher than 200 dollars so it is in fact a cost versus quantity sold issue.
BD
Edith,
Couldn’t agree more. Very slim market in my mind.
kevin
Kevin,
Pyramyd has these adjustable rings in both 1″ and 30mm. I have a set for my 460 Magnum just waiting for a day where the temperature is warmer and the wind isn’t blowing hard enough to skew the results to test them.
/product/sportsmatch-30mm-rings-high-adjustable-9-5-11mm-dovetail?a=3508
David
Looks like only the 30mm rings are being carried by Pyramyd for now :’-(
David
Dave
If you leave two s pi aces after your smiley face symbol you should get the actual character. Eat ch I’ll show you.
Like this should be no character.:)
Now with two spaces after the period. 🙂
Or below the sentence.
🙂
And look what my phone did again.:(
Whoops forgot the two spaces.
🙁 🙂
Gunfun,
I forgot the spaces. 🙁
David
David
You know everything needs a little space.;)
Whoops
😉
Gunfun1,
Yes, we need more 🙂 😉 🙁 choices. Maybe a side bar to pick from, while writing?
David,
Thank you for the link.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time with the sportsmatch and older B-Square fully adjustable mounts.
kevin
B.B.,
Is this new Diana mount only offered with 0.04″ of droop compensation?
I visited PA’s site and this is the only one I saw.
kevin
Kevin,
As far as I know, that is all they are offering.
B.B.
B.B.,
It seems jealous, short sighted and greedy for Diana to change their guns to not be able to accept the UTG adapter then come out with their own mount that doesn’t have multiple options of droop compensation for all of the Diana guns. OR am I missing something?
kevin
Kevin,
I think jealous covers it. NIH.
B.B.
B.B.,
NIH,…????,….”No Intended Harm”? Sorry, just had to ask. Never seen that before.
Chris,
It stands for not invented here. It refers to a close-minded attitude — if “we” didn’t invent it it, or “we” are’t doing it, it isn’t worth fooling with.
B.B.
BB
Now that I know what that means.
I like it.
Gunfun1,
Taking a break from sending those feral soda cans skating across the ice crusted snow? 😉
Went to town today to do the usual weekend shopping. Picked up some “super sweet” target holding stakes. (They are used for electric fence). Plastic I-beam construction, 5/16 steel stake/rod on the bottom, a “step” to step it in the ground and 8 “clips” that would be perfect for holding card board targets. 47″ tall and very sturdy.
Got them at TSC, a local farm related store/chain. Check ’em out.
Got / tried the stickers yet?
Chris, USA
We use to have Tractor Supply Company by us but they moved out of our area.
We got what’s called Rural King now. Basically the same thing.
I will check those stakes out. Sounds like what we use to have on my dads farm.
And no haven’t got the stickers yet. My wife’s suppose to do some running and she’s going to pick me some up.
And I’m actually out shooting. I got a target at 15, 25, 35 and 50 yards. I’m writing down my hold over and unders for the 1720T I just got. And also I never got a chance to do the FX Monsoon or the FWB 300s.
So back to work for me right now so I can get these 3 guns done.
I slipped the term underhanded into one of my comments ts and felt justified in doing so!
Just a couple of experience-type tips on scope mounting:
— A liberal application of “canned air” is helpful in cleaning off the dust, mud, blood, mire, guck, bluck, and ick from the the rail or mounting point on the gun, but don’t forget the contact areas on the rings themselves. This, of course, in addition to the other stuff Tom recommends.
—when you have mounted the bottom half of the rings and have put the scope there awaiting the top half of the rings, snap one (or even two) of those blue rubber bands you get with produce from the grocery store to hold it in place.
Sure as can be, at that moment, the phone will ring with a political robo-call, or your sweetie calling to find out if there’s anything to be picked up, or the terriers need to go outside NOW, or…(fill in your favorite distraction here.) Without the blue rubber band(s) you’ll then return to the scope project and casually and absently pick it up and reduce a $500 scope to a busted-up and at least dented mess. You will, inevitably, be standing on concrete when this happens. Look around accusingly all you want, but it is your lacko-blue-rubber-bandless fault:) Please, in gentle sympathy, do not ask me how I know this to be true.
—When starting the top rings, I use a temporary shim to get even spacing on the left/right sides. Depending on the rings, the shim can be a washer, or a steel rule, or anything flat and consistant.
I use a 1962 Tom Gaylord mojo-loaded dime myself:)
Once the rings are slightly snugged, it becomes easy to remove the shim and tighten each screw (1/4 at a time) until tight.
Folks,
We have some problems with the blog. One issue is that a bunch of comments are being held pending approval. Not the spam folder, but just questionable. I’ve approved some of them 6 times, yet they still don’t appear. I have Pyramyd Air’s IT department working on this. Hopefully, they’ll fix it soon.
Thanks for your understanding and sorry for the inconvenience.
Edith
B.B. , off subject, have you ever done a review on the Browning Leverage Air Rifle? I’m not hinting or asking you to if you have not. I was just trying to find if you had or not. Thank You, Bradly
Bradly,
I owned a Browning Leaverage in .177cal for a short while. I had the first one for just over a month when a pin fell out of the cocking leaver. Pyramyd actually replaced it with a brand new one even though it was past the 30 day return window 🙂
The replacement was not as good. It felt like there was grit in it when cocking. I oiled everything with the proper lubes and that helped a lot. But even after keeping the replacement for almost the full 30 days it was no where near as accurate as my original rifle. I returned the second and ordered an RWS 460 Magnum.
The original would have been a keeper had it not fallen apart. It was close in accuracy to the 460 Magnum, came with a decent scope and was easier to cock then the 460 Magnum. The trigger was the weak point it was a single stage non adjustable that was on the heavy side breaking at 5 lbs. But there was no creep in the trigger on either of the two rifles I had. There is also some droop, they include a plastic shim to compensate for it when you mount the scope.
David
Bradly,
I don’t believe I have tested one.
B.B.
BB,
A couple of questions about the mount. Is the stop pin removable and/or adjustable in depth?
What is the inside measurement between the rings and the outside to outside measurement of the rings?
RR,
Yes the stop pin is removable. For the other, I’ll put it in part 2 on the mount.
B.B.
BB,
What is your own personal experience with the Bullseye ZR 1-Pc Mount, I mean will it keep a powerful spring air rifle from destroying a scope?
I had a Bushnell Trophy scope destroyed by the sharp recoil of my Diana 54. I have not mount another scope on that gun since and it is now sitting in my closet.
Joe,
I just started testing that scope mount today.
Is your other scope destroyed, or is the elevation run up so high that it won’t hold a zero?
B.B.
scope destroyed.
That scope held up to the Diana 34, BUT not the Diana 54.
Bummer! Enough to make me wonder if this new mount coulda saved it.
Thanks BB for quick reply to my post. I now understand most of the terms in you explanation. I will google artillary hold and save you the explanation. How do I find the middle of the scope adjustments E/W now that I have it set too high and who know where?
Gabe,
No need to Google it. Here is a video.
/article/The_artillery_hold_June_2009/63
And here is a whole library of past articles that are different than blog reports:
/articles
Is you scope adjusted too high? That was just a guess on my part.
To find where you are, dial the scope as high as it will go and count the number of clicks it takes. To find the center of the adjustment, dial it back down to as low as it will go and count the total clicks. The center lies in between the top and the bottom. Expect to hear several hundred clicks from top to bottom.
B.B.
Im 99% sure its too high just given the short range I’m trying to zero it to an the strange shot patterns I get some times. I’m extremely excited to try this artillary hold technique. I’m off to wally world to get some more pellets. If figure it cant hurt to reset and shim the scope. I calculate four layers of hvy aluminum foil~.04″
Gabe,
Ah — Wally World pellet. There is another problem. How bad a problem I can’t fully say, but read all 5 parts of this report:
/blog/2014/12/the-great-pellet-comparison-test-part-5/
I still need to test the bargain pellets in a powerful air rifle, so I don’t know everything yet, but you can see what happened thus far.
B.B.
Scope is fine. Wound it up 5 turns and then down nine then back up four and a half. Took a test shot and hit the 1″ target. Haven’t touched the adj since. Weird. Turned my attention to the hold. With out a doubt my groups improved drastically. Showed my wife and she immediately went about embarrassing me yet again. Still even her ggroups had outlyers. Read your article, some parts twice. Going to order some falcons as soon as I finish this post. Again thanks for your help. I’ve learned a lot this weekend and look forward to more
Gabe,
That’s the stuff! Thank you for that feedback! I like to hear when someone discovers real airgunning.
B.B.
Hi everyone…
I checked the whole pellet vs. firing behaviour thing some more in my Diana 31. As I mentioned before, I don’t notice a difference in the HW 35 with its shorter stroke.
I still don’t think the JSB Exacts are causing any dieseling. I think the slightly “sharper” and brighter sound is because they just need less force to get moving and are causing less vibration. Maybe the piston stops a little more abruptly because there’s less of an air cushion.
You could think they might be less accurate because they don’t engage the rifling as well as other pellets do but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I’m not sure they’re really better than some of the other pellets (at least when I am shooting) but the firing behaviour *is* a little more pleasant. I guess they are rightfully considered “premium” 🙂
At € 7,50 a tin they are somewhat pricey and I’m not sure I’m willing to pay that much for casual shooting when the other pellets are doing the job as well. But it’s probably a good thing to have a tin of them for special occasions 🙂
Kind regards,
Stephan
I think you are onto something. I am wondering if my issues with them could be the particular tin. Might be undersized? I do like the velocity energy potential but not as accurate for me. Lots of folks swear by them have you a chance to try premiers or h&n ftt?
Rob,
as far as I can tell, the Exacts in 4,50 are very accurate in my 31. So far I’ve found the rifle really likes Exacts, H&N Baracuda and Umarex Cobra.
The Exacts are a loose fit when putting them in the breech, but they also seem to be manufactured to very close specs.
Geco wadcutters seem to be ok.
Again, take my observations with a grain of salt. I’m probably not the most reliable shooter 🙂
Makes me glad I bought the Benjamin Titan XS instead of the RWS 34. I didn’t have the money to pay for a mount to compensate for the droop and a scope too.
B.B built a Iig & did a blog o barrel bending thY would fix this problem but I don’t guess Diana’s willing to make the effort to fix any of them so long as people are willing to spend even more money for the name.
Off subject or not? Maybe related? Subject(s)! Diana 340 N-Tech air rifles, Premium AR, Classic AR and Luxus AR? Would these be replacement(s) for those Diana’s that have problems such as droop? Or just new inventory? How about some education on these air rifles? Nothing shoots better than my Diana 24 in my current collection! Been wanting to move up a few grades! I have an old Beeman 5.5mm that is very accurate also! When I read the reply’s I learn alot! But, makes me question many air guns dependability and quality! But! I want the best for my bucks! Help? Semper fi!
J Lee,
We won’t know about the Diana 340 N-Tech until we test one. Chances are the platform (a Diana model 34) remains the same, but until we test it, it’s impossible to say.
B.B.
I have been waiting for these to finally hit the market since the 2014 Shot Show. What these are is the 340 Magnum with a gas spring.
Droop? I have no clue. Since the new Diana mounts have droop compensation built in, you may assume they have it also. It is not a quality issue, it is just how they are built.
As far as quality goes, these new Dianas are likely on par with any of the European air rifles and likely a considerable bit better than those made by Wang Po Industries.
I am feverously trying to figure out how to add that walnut stocked Luxus to my collection.
I’m sorry, BB is right about it being based on the 34. I was thinking of the 350 magnum.
This one has a power level between the 34 and the 350 magnum. It is probably going to be a real good shooter.
BB,
I do not know if anyone has commented about it, but that is a lot of scope for this sproinger. I would have thought one of the 3-12 versions would have worked better on this.
RR,
It is a lot of scope, but it is also very small for its power. It’s as small as a 4-12. I guess I’d better show a picture of it when I do the report on the scope. so you can see.
I need to test this scope, and this was the next rifle in rotation. I wanted something that recoiled.
B.B.
BB,
That’s fine. I am certain there are a lot of guys out there who will want something like this, especially for field target, etc. It is just that I am looking for something a little lower in power for hunting, etc. When I was a teenager I used a Weaver 12 power to shoot groundhogs in the head at over 500 yards. As I am sure you know, all that power is a hindrance when you are hunting.
Whatever happened to the scopes of my youth? I used to have a couple of Weaver 3-6×20 scopes that had very clear optics. I used to be able to shoot targets at 100 yards with them and pop groundhogs as close as 10 yards and did not have to fool with parallax adjustments.
I would love to find a scope in the 3 – 6 power range that was clear from 10 – 100 yards without parallax adjustments with 32 – 40 objective. 10 – 50 yards would be fine. Something you can throw up and take the shot.
Maybe you can talk to Leapers. 😉
RR,
And ask Leapers to what? Build a ’57 Chevv again? 😉
This is why when I go to gun shows I look for all the metal-bodied Weaver, Redfield and Unertl vintage scopes. I only buy when I see a bargain, and I have bought some real good ones they way.
B.B.
I know, I know. The main problem is most of them know what they have and will not let it go cheap.
RR you might take a look at a timberline 4.5-14×32 it’s a great scope small with very good glass,adj down to 7yds has held up to my springers which have broken 2 trophy xlts 2 hawkes AirMac Eva and several cheaper scopes
Douglas,
The main issue with that scope is the adjustable objective. I am looking for a low power scope, say 3x – 6x that the image is in focus from under 10 yards to over 100 yards. The main problem is that just like everybody has been screaming for faster and faster guns, they have also been screaming for more and more magnification in the scopes. After a certain point it becomes necessary to refocus because your depth of field decreases as your power increases.
As BB and I were discussing, there were some really nice low power scopes once upon a time that had great optics and a huge depth of field.
I can’t really agree with the “if it looks straight to you then it’s straight enough” statement.
If it’s off, and causing you to can’t the rifle the windage would have to be adjusted to make point of impact at different ranges.
Long distance shooters and snipers obsess hugely about this as it forces the bore off axis when the crosshair is held vertically
How much difference it makes at airgun distances I’m not sure.
Dom, I agree with you that a canted reticle will cause aiming errors. The farther from your zero range, the bigger the horizontal error.
I also agree with B.B. that an eyeballed reticle leveling is “good enough.” For a lot of use cases, anyway.
If you and your rifle are precise enough to begin with, a canted reticle could be *the* factor standing between you and ideal performance at all different ranges. It could make the difference between hit or miss on a small killzone on a varmint or a field target.
I would also add that I *think* it only makes sense to fuss over reticle cant if you’re *also* going to fuss over rifle cant. The effect of a canted rifle is probably going to dominate the effect of a canted reticle. I think. Right???
So, if you’re going to go beyond the eyeballed reticle, you’ve got to go all the way: make sure that your vertical reticle is perfectly plumb; and that it is perfectly aligned with the bore and with gravity; AND that you have something like a bubble level which is perfectly level versus this vertical plane so that you consistently shoot with all these things aligned.
On my Field Target rifle, I go to the trouble of getting all these things plumb, level, and aligned. And I endure the hassle of using the bubble level for most every shot. For more plinking type rifles, I eyeball the reticle and don’t use a level.
This stuff might make for an interesting, if nerdy, blog someday 😉
-Jan
For true accuracy at varying ranges it’s absolutely critical to develop a very good vertical hold, and have that crosshair completely perpendicular to the bore….wouldn’t matter a jot if it was off centre provided you always shot at the same distance…a lot of scoped bolt action battle rifles, by necessity had offset scopes but the targets are larger and it was a known offset
For HFT…and indeed for airgun pest control I think it’s one of the areas you really need to concentrate on
I actually wish scope manufacturers would make an upper mark on the scope and one on the dead centre of a mount…as an initial guide.
B.B.,
Ballistol,….I use the liquid form to wipe down the metal and wood after shooting. The wood really looks nice after a good wipe down, but,…fades away to dull / flat / matte gloss in a day or two.
Is there anything I can use to deepen the “luster” of the wood without applying a hard clear coat?..which I would never do by the way.
I was also very surprised that it seems that it is water soluable, from the instructions on the can.
Thanks ahead for any tips and advice, Chris
Chris,
The reason the shine fades is the Ballistol is soaking into the wood grain. That’s good for the wood. My 1886 Ballard does the same thing, but takes a month to lose the shine because it has a hand-ribbed oil finish.
Don’t know of a product that will keep the shine, but a carnuba wax might work.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. So much good advice here.
Putting together a P.A. order…the 499 is out of stock till 5-15-15 🙁 But will be getting the Alpha Master Chrony 🙂
Too bad for P.A,…I was ready to go for BOTH.
Chris, USA
Glad your getting a chrony. You will be glad you did as time goes on.
Gunfun1,
Yep, me too. Gonna’ get 3 new pellets, plus another can of the 15.89 JSB’s.
Wanted to try a can of the Predator Metal Mags with the metal insert. Ever “play” with them?
Now I’ll be able to plug some real #’s into Chairgun and share in with the FPS, spread and deviation conversations from time to time.
Glad you had a good day of shooting yesterday. Sorry to have interupted. I did not realize that it was a “work” session.
Chris, USA
No interruption to me at all. I take breaks while I’m shooting to give the brain, eyes and body a break.
No I haven’t tryed the metal mags. I have been wanting to but keep forgetting to order some. I do believe there is other people that have tryed them on the blog. I know Buldawg has them I believe in .22 cal. And I know me and Twotalon has talked about them before for ground hog use if I remember right. Maybe they can jump in and give you a answer if they read this.
And no I shouldn’t say back to work when I’m talking airgun shooting. Its actually my biggest way to relax. I got the radio playing pretty much everytime I’m shooting at home. Playing some good ole rock and roll.
Well maybe some people don’t think rock and roll is relaxing. But it works for me.
🙂
Gunfun,
On the rock and roll, you listed off almost an exact copy the other day of all the stuff I listened to “back in the day”…and still do.
I often think to myself and smile,..that some where out there is probably an “youth air gun blog” , that reads this one, and comments on all the old “geezers” with all their latest aches and pains and ailments. (me included) 😉 But, I’ll bet their jealous of all the nice guns in our collections as well. Not to mention the collective knowledge.
If one does exist,..all I can say is : stick around,.. come on in,.. and stay awhile.
Maybe, just maybe,..you’ll learn a thing or two.
Chris, USA
I does seem that its older people talking airguns here.
I wonder if the kids aren’t interested in airguns now days.
GF1
Did someone mention rock ? Listening to Boston right now.
Just loaded most of my CDs onto an mp3 player to use in my car.
Metal or poly mags don’t work equally as well in different rifles. You have to try them to see.
The polymags shot super tight at 35 yds on my Talondor. 1045 fps at the muzzle.
Not so great in the S500.
Metalmags shot better in the S500 than the polymags did. Did not keep up with the 18 gr Exacts. Have not tried metalmags in the Talondor. Usually use Kodiak/barracuda for a hard hit.
twotalon
Twotalon,
“Talondor”,…Really”…..No doubt a Talon/Condor Hybred 🙂
A “tight 35 and 1045”,…You PCP guys are really trying to get me “to go there” are’nt you? 😉
Thanks for the poly/metal mag. info. I’ll try a can. Some reviews said the tips can come off in the can or on the way out. We’ll see. What’s another 16 when your already dropping 60 on lead anyways.
I’ll try ’em at 25 or 30yds. and if they work out,…save ’em for “special” occasions. Pricey little suckers!
TT
Nothing like some good ole Boston.
Chris, Ballistol is a “medical grade mineral oil” ie, very pure and is an excellent protectant…but not really a stock oil.
The problem you have got isn’t needing to put on a coating, but the one you already have..stopping oil penetration.
If you really want one of those beautiful deep oiled stocks, then you start with paint stripper, progress to 240 grit paper, then wire wool, then 00 grade wire wool, when you are down to a stock so smooth it slips through your fingers…then you are ready for oiling the stock
A coat an hour for a day
A coat a day for a week
A coat a week for a month
A coat a month for a year
And a coat every year for a lifetime.
Lint free muslin..and apply in firm pressed circles 🙂
Dom,
Thank you for that advice. I will take notes and save for future reference. I don’t see where you recommended a particular oil though.
And,.. on leveling of scopes and guns, your idea of a mark on scope and ring makes perfect sense. “as an intitial guide”, as you said.
No I steered clear of suggesting an oil..or a stain as these things are a bit subjective, I had a friend who used to use tea to stain and motor oil on his stocks and tbh they looked great
Traditionally linseed oil was common, but it leaves a stickiness that isn’t much fun, however it penetrates well and could be used for the first few coats.
Danish oil, Teak oil, Walnut oil…all have their proponents, and subtly different colours…some people swear by Tru-oil, ironically named as that is almost exactly what it’s not…it’s certainly easier to apply, three or four coats and that’s it.
However, it does lack that “dip your hand in” depth that traditional oiling gets
The only thing to watch out for is stain, a lot of them are actually varnishes, make sure you get a spirit or water based one and give the stock another polishing with the 00 grade after it’s dried out
Dom,
Thanks again,…you seem to know quite a lot on stock finishing.
That is showing some “true” love of the gun to go through all that. And a “keeper”.
As you may or may not know, I got the TX200 in walnut a short while back, (my first airgun in a long time), and am not quite ready to “strip ‘er down” just yet. Really just looking for an oil that will “shine ‘er up a bit” if you know what I mean. But, don’t want “build up”.
Tung oil is the most available, but I’m sure I could get anything if I look.
And yes, some stuff can really mess things up.
Chris, USA
Dom gave you a bunch of good information about taking care of the guns wood.
So I don’t take it as I’m jumping in on what knowledge he shared.
But your not going to believe what I use every once in a while. Good ole Lemon Pledge. Its a wax so I don’t spray it on the gun directly. I spray it on a old soft cotton T shirt then polish up the wood stock. Just beware if it get on a guns surface that has the flat black finnish like some guns have instead of the slick blueing it will cause that to turn white from the wax.
But don’t know about you but my moms furniture always shined and was smooth to the touch. And she only used the Pledge about once a month.
Try it on something other than your gun to see what you think.
Quite the opposite GF, quite a few of my guns get a coat of Simoniz car polish on their factory laquered stocks, and occasionally a squirt of pledge, I’m not beyond polishing the blueing with wax polish either, as long as it’s non abrasive it protects and shines very nicely, especially a quality car wax.
Dom
Yep it doesn’t bother me if I get the Pledge on blueing.
But I don’t like it on the black finish that my FX Monsoon has on its metal or my Marauders black finish they use on the metal of thier guns. Its not the normal slick black color of bluing.
My dad use to make guitars and he always used wax over the top of a satin sealer.
And yes triple ought and quadruple ought is the best for slickenining up a a finish or even plain wood before waxing. It will give the wood a silky feel when touched. Almost as if it makes the wood soft to the touch.
Gunfun
I know that chrony numbers are just one piece of the puzzle and shooting will tell much more of the full story as to which pellet the 40 likes and shooting each one for grouping is the only true way to find the right one.
I am just hoping that it is one of the JSBs or the CP heavy that group good since those are the ones I have the most of,. but it may like one of the others better also so I still have a lot more work ahead to find the right pellet and determining droop and all the hard work before I can just have fun shooting.
I saw the pic you sent of your new 1720T as I had my phone off so you did not interrupt the ceremony which went very well and we were fed afterwards as well. It puzzled me at first since you had said you bought a 1399 stock to put on it and the pic had the RAI and AR stock on it but then I remembered you had that form your 2240s and it does look real good. I just read your text and it explained the shroud being moved forward as it does look better with it moved forward like that and I assume it has no affect on accuracy.
I would not want to move the shroud on my Mrod like that as it sticks out far enough now and I hit the end on stuff as it is but I have seen a muzzle brake the Tim Hill makes that screws on where the end cap of the shroud does so it replaces the end cap and is 3 inches long with 30 or so holes in it that looks pretty cool but he want 50 bucks for it and since it is for looks only it will have to wait till my disability is approved.
BD
Buldawg
I remembered you said you weren’t going to the field target match today then I realized you had to go to the ceremony.
Yep testing time. The way I look at it is at least that means shooting time. I don’t know if you read through all the replies today. I was out getting my mildot holds wrote down for the 1720, Monsoon and the 300s today. The weather has bee so cold and windy that I didn’t get to do those guns. But got them all done today.
And I did move my shrouds forward on my first generation Marauders I had but not on my 2nd generation Marayders. They got more baffles and are pretty quiet. And it does make them harder to carry.
The 1720 I think looks better with the shroud moved forward. Its more balanced looking to me. When you put a butt stock on them it makes the gun barrel look to short to me. So it gives the 1720 a better look to me and its definatly more quiet.
And I have had 3 Mrods and a Prod and 2 1720’s and absalutly has not affected accuracy on any of my guns I did it to.
And at the most depending on what model you have it doesn’t cost nothing more than buying a spring for a couple dollars. And the new 1720 has a washer fitted to the shroud so it keeps the baffles in place. Just slide the baffle forward whatever amount you want.
Heck who knows that could act like a barrel harmonics tuning device if you wanted to get technical about it depending on where you located the shroud at.
Gunfun
it turned out Loren was at a RC swap meet in Georgia so he was not going to be their either so it worked out good as far as the FT match although it was a perfect day here with mid 60s and very light winds. I did not get any shooting done today though.
I have not had a chance to read through all the blog yet as just catching up on emails and other stuff that needs done.
Yea I agree your 1720 does look better with the shroud moved forward and probably does help with the balance some as well if not just in the looks. I don’t think I need to move the shroud on my Mrod as its plenty quiet now and like I said I hit the end on stuff without it sticking out farther, then it would look like my Hatsan with 20 inches of barrel past the stock with the LDC of 8 inches on the end of the 23 inch barrel.
Tim Hill does make a nice looking muzzle brake for the Mrod that screws on in place of the end cap and is three inches with 30 or so holes in it but that will have to wait till all my other projects are done and my disability is approved.
I am planning on mounting the scope on the 40 in a bit and shoot for droop with the two JSB and the CP heavy tomorrow and hopefully it will not be bad enough to need a drooper mount and I can shoot for grouping to find the right pellet it likes and get it wrapped up. then it on to the 48 for tuning and sighting.
BD
Buldawg
Getting ready to go shoot right now.
I’m getting ready to put some targets out at different distances then what I shot at yesterday and see if I can hit the bullseye.
Suppose to be nice here again today. Plus a hour longer of daylight today after setting the clocks forward for daylight savings time.
Gunfun
I just getting ready to mount the scope on the 40 and do some shooting as it is a beautiful day as well.
I had requested a copy of all the medical info the judge that I will be presenting my case for disability to has for her use in determining my case and it was a cd that I had to download and just spent the last two hours reviewing all the info and there are medical report from November of 2013 until now that are missing so I am going to contact lawyer to make sure the info I have provided them after every doctors visit is sent to the judge before my hearing date so she has all the new info for her review and use in making a decision.
So now that my brain cells are frying I am going to do something that will let me enjoy the rest of my day and have some fun shooting. So getting scope mounted and going to start shooting.
Will talk later after the sun goes down.
BD
Buldawg
Yep and let me know how the 40 turns out with testing those pellets for groups.
Gunfuin
Yep got scope mounted now and going to grab a bite to eat and start shooting.
Got tracking number on the Titan and it will be here Wednesday.
BD
One thing you could do to the finish on your stock, which I’d be prepared to guess is a satin finish laquer would be to polish it, to a gloss finish, in much the same way you would rejuvinate faded paint on a car
My 1980’s Diana 52 has quite a gloss finished varnished stock as standard for those days but it had several dull patches where handling has occurred so I used T cut with a wet cloth and polished the whole thing back to it’s former glory before giving it a couple of coats of Turtle wax…..it’s now almost too slippery to hold but you could shave in the reflection….but I may yet strip it and oil, I like defined grain and underneath the varnish I can see quite a nice bit of Beech wanting to come out
Lots of good info on stock finishing, isn’t OO steel or wire wool too coarse?
I get the stock ready by wet sanding with 400 600 then 1500 then linseed oil rubbed in with OOOO grade steel wool. The steel wool is now subject to dangerous combustion so dispose in water or store in a completely fireproof container. Excess wiped off. It takes a year to harden fully. Wet sanding eliminates wood whiskers and will fill pores in walnut. The secret ingredient is T I M E.
All other finishes are aimed at shortening time with dryers, which work well but the boiled linseed finish can remain beautiful for a century.
Caution with boiled linseed as my neighbor burned his home down with oil soaked rags in an open trashcan.
Yes, you’re right, I was getting my 00 and 0000’s mixed up
The TX Chris has a Minelli made stock, so it will be a fairly satin laquered finish that in AA’s spec seems to mark rather too easily…….if it’s walnut it would strip and oil beautifully, just use paint stripper and a softish brush on the chequering though, no abrasives at all.
Boiled linseed oil dries like vegetable oil, to a rather tacky finish, long lasting but not that tactile until enough time has passed for it to settle down.
I rather like oiling stocks, it’s quite Zen to sit with it on my lap while watching tv
Dom, Gunfun, Mister Rob,
Thank you all for your advice. Very nice as well that all of it was “real world” experience and just not something that you heard or read.
Notes made of all suggestions. While not decided, I think I will lean towards Pledge or quality car wax.
Thanks again, Chris
Chris, USA
And thank you.
That Pledge can be some slick stuff! You might consider keeping it off the pistol grip and probably the forearm as well.
Wouldn’t want you dropping that $700 Gunn and getting it all dinged up.
Reb
Reb,
Yes, that would not be a good thing! Add in rings and scope and it’s a bit more than that.
Quit it now,…your gonna’ get me afraid to take it out of the house! 😉
Chris,
Don’t screw up that nice TX Walnut stock.
You don’t need to strip it and you don’t need topical products like pledge.
Get some Mahoney’s walnut oil since the TX stocks typically come from the factory dry. If you want more of a luster to your stock get the Mahoney’s wax too. Very simple to apply these products and impossible to screw up.
You can find Mahoney’s in fine woodworkers stores or online.
kevin
Kevin
Why in the world would you strip the wood?
1) Do you think that 000 and 0000 steel wool will strip the sealer on wood? It may level it. Your going to need a lot of steel wool and time if you think your going to strip the top coat or sealer.
2) Tell me what you think Pledge will do verses a paste wax? If you recommend not using it you must of tryed it on something to come to that conclusion.
3) Is the walnut stock on a Tx unsealed wood? I have a beech stock on mine and its sealed. So it would be hard to mess the stock up.
4) Refinished my 300s by sanding it and then using steel wool. Then did about 3 coats of oil stain and let it set for a couple days between each coat. Then steel wooled it some more. Once it was as smooth as I wanted it I used Pledge on it. It has a very deep look to the wood.
And sorry but I can only say what I have seen. Not what I think.
If you drop it, let me know. I’ll send you a crisp new $100 bill for that thing! Dinged up and everything!
Qjay,
Let me think,…….not a chance! 😉
Gunfun1,
I didn’t recommend that he strip the wood. On the contrary, I said “You don’t need to strip it”.
1-Steel wool, in any grit, will not by itself strip a gun stock. (Don’t know how this entered the conversation since I didn’t mention anything about steel wool)
2-I don’t like topical agents like pledge because they have ingredients that I don’t like. In the case of Lemon Pledge, sorbitan, proprietary thickening agent that clogs the wood, fragrance, Octylphosphonic Acid, etc. You can use paste wax on your stocks if you like. Won’t do any damage. It’s too thick for my taste. I prefer to use what museums use on their guns…Renaissance Wax.
3-Walnut stocks on factory TX 200’s is oiled only. The beech stocks on factory TX 200’s are finished with a laquer spray.
4-Glad you found what works for you.
kevin
Kevin,
Thank you for your input and insight. Really,…thanks!
I will look for the R-wax to see if I can find it. If not, I’ll probably go with the car wax or pledge.
Chris,
Before you wax your walnut stock I would encourage you to apply a light coat of mahoneys walnut oil. Wax typically is designed for protection of the surface not as a finish for the wood.
Enhance your oil finish then apply the wax. If you apply an oil first it will be allowed to penetrate the wood deeper and more evenly than if you apply it after waxing in the future.
Here’s a link to the oil & wax:
http://bowlmakerinc.com/finishes/oil-and-wax-combo.html
kevin
Kevin,
I bookmarked that link. That sounds like it would be good for my Ballard. Yes?
B.B.
BD,
I don’t know the answer to your question about the ZR mount. Logic suggests one thing, but until I test it, I won’t know for sure.
B.B.
B.B. interesting and timely article, I just purchased a Diana 52 .25 cal from PA and I probably will scope it eventually. I am going to break it in and figure pellets out first with the open sites even though my vision with open sights isn’t as good but I will be sticking to 10 and 25 yards to start so it’s more doable. I’ll use this time to evaluate the scope and mounting options and issues and at a 1000 pellets i will probably try a scope on it.
Funny thing when we were discussing the old articles and blogs the other day I did not mention it but I was looking for info on this exact gun and did my Google search to find yet another old article of yours that you were discussing this particular rifle and calibers, so excellent to be able to find your knowledgeable information on a particular gun even if the info is almost 10 years old. Thanks Ricka.
Ricka, I’ve wondered about that gun also. I didn’t know it was the same. Is it hold sensitive? Thanks, Bradly
Now that Diana has another droop mount out, it’s guaranteed that all rifles will have droop deliberately built in as a business strategy.
I’m a whizz at eBay for model trains but have just started for airguns. Looking at airgun rifles there are 1,051 listings but click on auctions only and their are only two. That means all but those two are airgun dealers who have listed their stuff at full price so no non current production there.
“Another side benefit is the 0,4” lock-down. It eases the adjustment of the reticle by compensating barrel droop
and trajectory.” https://www.diana-airguns.de/fileadmin/pdf/katalog/BULLSEYE_eng.pdf …
“A high speed analysis of the way the ZR Mounts work” http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-high-speed-analysis-of-the-way-the-zr-mounts-work#comments … Héctor Medina has been testing-out the ZR Mount in WFTF Competition … so far, without reservations.
http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/uploads/2/3/8/4/23849268/5744580_orig.jpg —
The 2014 New York State Championship in pictures, well MOSTLY. 😉 … http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-2014-new-york-state-championship-in-pictures-well-mostly — “But this Cup, being a non-AAFTA event, offered the opportunity to use a full power rig (TRUE 20 ft-lbs.) and test the ZR Mounts at the same time. … Over the weekend I shot more than 1,000 rounds of 13.7 JSB’s. Not only was I sighting in, I was testing the ZR Mounts. As far as the repeatability goes, the mounts proved repeatable. … The ZR Mounts behaved perfectly holding the 8-32X50 AEON at 12 ft-lbs and proving absolutely repeatable.”
B.B.,
This is in response to your query regarding mahoney’s.
Yes, this would be good on any WALNUT IF IT HASN’T BEEN FINISHED WITH POLY OR LACQUER.
Please note that in your humid climate you need to warm the oil, put on thin coats and let it dry thoroughly. It’s an easy product to apply since there aren’t any poly’s or driers in the oil (unlike products that call themselves oil like Truoil or Royal London Oil, RLO).
ps-also good for cutting boards, knife handles, wood bowls, etc. since it’s food grade.
kevin
Kevin,
No, the Ballard’s stock has an original oil finish. This sounds good.
Thanks,
B.B.
kevin,
Humid climate? Here? This part of Texas is semi-arid. And with the drought, we’re getting closer and closer to dropping the “semi” part.
Edith
Edith,
Are you teasing me?
Humidity in Burleson is 87% today. Average humidity for Burleson is 77.63%. Our humidity here is 30% today. You haven’t forgotten what a dry climate really is have you? LOL!
http://www.usa.com/burleson-tx-weather.htm
kevin
I have an old Beeman R1 Laser. During a light plinking session I noticed the power dropping off and some blue crumbs in the breach seal area. I took one more shot and the power had dropped off to the point that the pellet didn’t leave the barrel. I ordered a new main spring, breach seal and piston seal. I used a light coat of almagard 3752 on the spring (as this has never let me down on my ATVs for lube that I need to stay put and not fling all about) and a light coat beeman chamber oil on the piston skirt and sides on the piston seal. No lube was used in the combustion chamber. After reassembly I noticed that I could feel the spring rings rubbing as I cocked and carefully uncocked the rifle. After I disassembled (again) a close examination with the naked eye revealed no demons lurking inside. A closer inspection with a micrometer showed that the end of the piston that accepts the spring was 28 thousandths out of round and there was a small dent in the piston sleeve – almost imperceptible. I’ve ordered up a sleeve and have carefully trued the end of piston back to within 2 thousandths.
Have you ever heard of this before? Could the new spring be slightly bigger than the old in circumference when compressing? If it still runs slightly after reassembly will it tear up things?
Tina,
I answered this once already. The new mainspring may be slightly larger in diameter which causes the feeling of rubbing. That is a very common feeling, by the way.
Have you lubed the mainspring and if so, with what and how much?
B.B.
I used a light coat of almagard 3752 on the spring (as this has never let me down on my ATVs for lube that I need to stay put and not fling all about) and a light coat of beeman chamber oil on the piston skirt and sides on the piston seal. No lube was used in the combustion chamber.
Thank you for your quick response. My R7 cocks silky smooth so this rubbing worried me. Hopefully the new sleeve and truing the piston will solve most of the rubbing issue.
Tina,
Almagard is not a product I’m familiar with, but if it works in rugged situations it should be okay.
I have the spring rubbing feeling is maybe 25 percent of my spring rifles. It is a bump, bump, bump feel of the cocking shoe going across the top of each spring coil as the rifle is cocked. I have had it pop up when I changed mainsprings. But more grease on the mainspring might quiet it a bit. That’s why I asked about how much you used.
You can use grease in the compression chamber if you want, but it will have to burn off as you shoot the rifle. I have that going on right now with a Diana 45 I recently tuned.
You know, it’s okay if you want to post on the current blog page. We don’t worry about staying on topic.
/blog//
B.B.
I read that grease in the compression chamber of a spring piston would cause dieseling and ruin the rifle. The piston sleeve is between the cocking shoe and the spring so how could it rub? This is a Beeman R1…
Tina,
You are right. I was thinking of other guns that don’t have a sleeve inside the piston. In your case the rear of the piston is bumping over the coils as they compress. In guns that don’t have a sleeve inside the piston, you can feel the bumps as the lever is returned home after cocking. These are all underlever or sidelever guns, now that I think about it.
As for the grease in the compression chamber, yes it will burn, but it does (and has to) all the time anyway. Leaving the compression chamber dry is a problem. You didn’t do that because you oiled the piston seal, but grease would have kept the chamber oiled much longer.
Grease also migrates forward from the mainspring over time, which is how some sopring guns remain lubricated for decades without adding any oil.
B.B.
So do recommend moly paste on the cylinder walls or something else?
Tina,
Yes, moly would be fine.
B.B.
Thank you BB you’ve been very helpful. Thank you for your patience. Can you send me a link to where the “blog” you speak of is?
Tina,
I embedded a link to the current blog in the answer. It’s here:
/blog//
B.B.
This comment from Marcos was eliminated by the spam filter.
B.B.
I’m confused about the ZR mount positioning. It seems to me that, in order to protect the scope from trying to slide backward, the mount spring should be at the front.
Marcos
Marcos,
Yes, we have noted that.
B.B.
B.B.
Thank you for answering.
As we have two opposite recoils with spring air rifles, it seems to me that in this YouTube video the mount spring is being compressed due the first one, and not due the second, the harsher and actual problem to the scopes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_LHhdL2Gw
So, considering the white arrow pointing to the muzzle, what would be the right way according to the ‘usual droop’ compensation feature, it seems to me we should have to invert the mount “sliding car” (and the mount spring) through those ‘setscrews’, as you called them.
Do you agree?
Marcos
Marcos,
I have to look at the mount, to see is reversing it is even possible. I was going to make Friday a special mount day, but it will have to wait until next week. I have lots to talk about.
Thanks for your feedback.
B.B.
B.B.
Ok, take your time, but keep in mind I’m counting on you.
In the last two years I’m literally in a fight “350 .22 T06 x scopes.. x mounts..”. Besides some broken scopes, the POI shifting issue (that subtle, and terrible, lost of confidence..).
So, I just bought the ZR mount as a “great hope” to keep a brand new/optically centered scope’s reliability.
Besides the mount spring positioning question.., and as a curiosity, my 350 doesn’t have the ‘usual droop’; at the opposite, its barrel is some upward.. So, in my case, I also have to reverse the mount base, with “my” white arrow pointing backward.
Marcos
PS – is there a place/email where I may ask other airgun related, but soooo different topics ?
Most (all) scopes are designed to withstand firearm recoil — which is a solid push to the back.
It is the airgun’s forward push that kills scopes. This mount appears to be designed to reduce that effect by deliberately letting inertia push the scope to the rear (as it is designed to handle) while the gun action gets knocked forward by the piston slamming into the end of the cylinder.
The inner tube of scope is pushed against the front end of the outer tube by a spring. Firearm recoil just locks the two tubes together tighter. The forward pulse from an airgun, however, lets the inner tube float backwards — and who knows what other effects can happen (reticle rotation as the spring compresses?)
I’ve been using this method just by chance. EXCEPT, I never thought to clean the dovetail and mounts. Thanks for this informative article!
Thank you so much for this article! I am completely new to air gunning -and to rifles in general, although I have over 20 yrs experience with handguns- and tonight I was setting up my brand new RWS Diana Model 54 rifle with the RWS Bullseye ZR-1Pc mount and a Hawke Vantage IR 3-9x40AO scope. This article helped me to get the scope mount installed right from the first try! Then I cleaned the barrel and challenged myself to get my first shot out of the rifle. I was certain I would miss because it was nighttime, I had not sighted in the scope and I was going to shoot standing… I just wanted to release the pressure from the spring and to get a feel for the trigger. To my surprise… I set up a vitamin bottle on top of a milk gallon jug at 50′ away and I got it right in the middle with my first shot with the scope at 9x setting and the IR off. This is a truly recoilless rifle, a bit heavy but incredibly precise. Thank you Pyramid Air! Great service in the sales and testing process and excellent educational blog and video blog. You rule!
Eliut,
Welcome to the blog.
It’s wonderful when things go right in any new venture. You know from your reading that it doesn’t happen that way too often. I’m glad it all worked well for you.
B.B.