by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Introduction
- What is a called flyer?
- Airguns are unique
- How are flyers called?
- I became a better shooter
- The skill transfers
Introduction
Today’s report was at the request of reader Chris USA. He responded to a comment made by reader Matt61,
On “called flyers”, what is that exactly? Do you call it (before) the pellet hits ? or,…is it a choice you make (after) the shot hits ? Follow through and keeping the eye on the target, after the shot,…I find that most of the time that I know (before) the pellet hits that I messed up. It’s an instinct, but one I am still working on.
Do you call a “flyer” after or before the shot hits ? If before,…you better be pretty darn quick about it !
The conversation went on to question how it was possible to call a flyer that left the airgun in a few milliseconds. Do humans really have reaction times that fast? Not really, but reaction time has nothing to do with calling flyers.
I told Chris I would address this subject soon, and today is the day. What is a called flyer and how can it be called?
What is a called flyer?
A called flyer is a shot that the shooter knows did not go to the place he intended. He knows where the shot went before he sees the hole in the target. To answer Chris’ first question, a called flyer is called before the shooter sees where the shot went. It has everything to do with the sight picture the shooter sees when the shot breaks, and his knowing exactly when the shot breaks. The latter is a function of the trigger. Only a trigger that is predictable will allow the shooter to concentrate on the sight picture at the moment of firing.
Airguns are unique
This is where airguns differ from firearms, because every airgun powerplant is unique in this respect. A pneumatic acts like a firearm. When you hear the sound of the shot, the pellet has already left the barrel. A spring-piston gun is different. You feel the shot before you hear it. And you feel it while the pellet is still in the barrel. Maybe those two things (feeling and hearing) happen too close to one another to separate them, but the shooter with a little experience knows when the pellet has left the barrel. That matters, because with a spring gun it is possible to do things that influence the pellet after the sear has released the piston but before the pellet starts moving. This is where follow-through becomes so important, and also where the artillery hold gets so much of its value.
How are flyers called?
Back to the subject — how can a shooter know when a shot has not gone to its intended point of impact? The answer became suddenly evident to me when I was practicing to shoot a 10-meter target air pistol. I think I saw it first during dry-fire practice. I would hold the pistol exactly as I would when shooting and the trigger was breaking as it always did, but the gun was not firing. All the literature said that the front sight was the most important sight element. Keep that in focus and everything falls into place.
I noticed that sometimes there was an involuntary twitch in my shooting arm that moved the front sight to one side of the rear notch. I knew that shot would not have gone where I wanted. It would have gone in whichever direction the front sight went. If it went to the left side of the rear notch, the shot would have gone to the left. That was the most common direction, by the way, because I am a right-handed shooter.
Noticing the relationship of the front sight and rear sight notch at the instant of firing is how shots are called.
The next time I shot pellets, I found I was doing the same thing — seeing where the front sight was, relative to the rear notch, when the shot fired and saying where the shot went. I was now calling my shots. In fact, I was calling them so accurately that I was surprised. This was a skill that other gun writers had touched on but I was never able to repeat before now.
I became a better shooter
Once I saw that this worked, the shooting world came into much sharper focus. I could score a 10-meter pistol target from the firing line before seeing it. I was usually right, too. My average score increased by many points, once I gained this skill.
And guns with open sights are where calling the shot originated. It’s pretty difficult to not know where a shot goes when you can see it through a telescopic sight. Calling the shot originated with the first accurate firearm — the Kentucky long rifle.
The skill transfers
The skill I acquired transferred to other guns as well. Now I learned to hold steady through the shot no matter how severe the recoil, just so I could see the shot at the moment of release. My former way of shooting now seemed more like wishful sniping — blasting away at a target and hoping for the best. Knowing I could call the shots meant I was able to place my shots. I was also able to tell the difference between an accurate gun and one that wasn’t built right — regardless of the price.
If I had continued shooting in competition there is no doubt that my average score would have continued to increase until it hit the practical limit of my physiological capability. And then I could have either learned to improve my physiology or been content to remain where I was — a very good shooter but not a great one.
Alas, I quit shooting competitively and my abilities began to degrade over time. I can still call my shots, but not with the degree of certainty that was once possible. I suppose this is like riding a bike. Once you learn how you can always do it, but to win the Tour de France requires continuous training and application.
Excellent explanation!
We’ve discussed this topic before in the comments and also went into photographic cognition.
Excessive recoil and magnification are two things that increase difficulty. Don’t blink until the round hits then close them momentarily to examine the image.
BB
I see what you mean about determining a pulled shot with a open sight. But I think with a scope its a little different.
I think seeing a pulled shot with a scope is shown more with follow through. All you have with a scope is the reticle. So if I take a shot with a scope and see that the scope is off target after the shot is made the POI will be more than likely at the same spot the gun comes to rest at looking through the scope.
That’s how I determine a pulled shot with a scoped gun anyway.
And here is something else me and Buldawg was just talking about Sunday. I turned the power up on my .25 Marauder. I had my trigger set pretty light on it.
So I take a few shots to see if it was still going to hit the same. Guess what I could feel the muzzle of the rifle rising. Well so much for follow through. My reticle was still on target but my shot landed a little high.
Here is where I wonder if anybody ever times the trigger pull pressure to the guns firing cycle. I actually added some trigger pressure and shot the rifle some more. I was now hitting on target compared to where my reticle was. The rifle kept the muzzle down enough I believe to get the pellet out of the barrel before that little bit of rise happened. And yes I know that when the sear breaks the shot that it shouldnt have a effect on the POI. But it does I think that the trigger finger cant release off the trigger fast enough to compensate for the gun movement. And yes the rifle was on the money again even with the rifle moving now.
I wonder if anybody has messed with trigger pressure to help control a gun.
GF1,
Every good shooter uses trigger pressure to control the gun. That’s why a predictable trigger is so vital.
A called pull with a scope is one where you see the reticle move just as the shot breaks. And there can be another way, as well. If you are holding the gun with tension and you know where the reticle will go when you relax, you will almost always pull the shot in the same direction. I did that on this test once.
B.B.
GF1,
You mention the M-rod and adjusting the trigger pressure (heavier) to better contol the shot and POI. That’s a PCP. What are your thoughts on a springer and trigger pressure and it’s relation to controlling shots?
The TX is set (very) light, oz’s I would say. The LGU is at least 4x higher, despite trigger weight screw being back near all the way out.
The adjustment from one to the other is quite severe for me. I find that I will apply substantial pressure to the LGU trigger and (not) break the shot. In fact, often “pulling” the sight picture due to the extra pressure required. It takes several shots to get the “feel” again for the LGU.
Your thoughts? Chris
Chris USA
The Tx I have after I tuned it has a very , very light shot cycle and its shooting the JSB 10.34’s at around 800 fps. You can almost breath on the trigger on that gun and it will go off.
Now the LGU like you say is heavier on trigger pressure. It’s all to do with the way I rest the gun and how I hold the gun and how I position my finger on the trigger. Plus I always watch what the guns shot cycle does compared to Poa and POI and my follow through. I try to adjust the trigger so it helps keep the gun stable for the way I hold it.
That was part of me and Buldawgs conversation. He lightened the trigger on the Mrod that he got from me. I had the trigger adjusted to help me hold the shot from changing on the POI verses POA. And again that all has to do with how I hold the gun. If I remember right he said he doesn’t use his finger tip on the trigger when he shoots because of the feeling in his finger. I do use my finger tip only.
So you see the trigger can be used for other things than just trying to get it as light as you can. That’s why I said in the very beginning that you should get a few different guns to see how they differ when you shoot them.
If you have a gun with a good true 2 stage trigger and learn how to adjust it to fit your shooting style you will see yourself improve.
GF1,
Thank you. More to think about. In my “newbie” sense of thinking, with a sight picture that has a bit of a “wiggle”, my thought on a lighter trigger is that it will reduce reaction time as the reticle “crosses the bull. Plus, the more pressure reqd. to break the trigger, increases the pulling the reticle off the POA. Or, at least it can. With firearms and hunting and having a round chambered, I can see a heavier trigger pull in case of a “bump”. With rested target, it would seem lighter is better,….perhaps that is not always the case.
The more I learn and the more questions I ask, the more I realize how little I know and how much I need to learn.
I use the tip of my finger, light on the grip, light on the shoulder, off hand/finger rested lightly at forearm, rested.
Thanks, Chris
Chris USA
I rest my gun as you do but hold the grip a little firm and pull into my shoulder with a little pressure.
Like I said it is a big benifit to have a adjustable trigger. That way you can tune it to the gun and you.
Chris and Gunfun
I do not use just my finger tip as I have lost the feeling in the tip of my fingers due to working as a mechanic for my whole life and picking up very hot parts like spark plugs or exhaust manifold bolts from a car just in off the road and the skin on my finger tip is more like leather than skin as I can pick up hot parts that anyone other than another mechanic will drop immediately since they feel the burning heat but to me its only warm and it has took 50 years to accumulate that much scar tissue/ leather on my fingertips.
I use the middle of my first digit on the trigger so I can feel the pressure I apply to the trigger so the 25 I got from Gunfun when I first shot it I went right thru the second stage as I could not feel the difference between the first and second stage and therefore added some more pressure to the trigger as the stage adjustments are fine but it was just to light with not enough of a distinct feel between the first and second stages.
Some of my other guns are set different depending on the triggers feel as my spring guns tend to have a definite click when shifting from the first to second stage and those I have set to a much lighter second stage than my marauders triggers since they have a definite click and stop at the second stage that I can hear and feel.
The trigger is as much a part of good shot placement and calling as is the tune or sights or any other variable with a gun. My biggest/hardest issue I am trying to overcome and deal with is not blinking right after releasing the trigger so that I can indeed follow the pellet to the target and find it is much easier with a PCP than a spring gun depending on the spring guns shot cycle.
Chris
If the LGU is to heavy of a second stage for you then try adjusting it to suit you better and see if it helps or hurts your grouping just record the turns on the screws you adjust so you can return to where it is at if it does not help. You may also have to get longer screws to truly achieve the right trigger feel as I find that most spring guns triggers are a lawyer triggers and do not have long enough screws to allow for the proper trigger adjustment to be performed.
The Hatsan 200S I got from Gunfun was one such gun as with both screws maxed out it was still a heavy second stage release so two 5 mm longer screws and some rounding of the tips of the screws and careful adjustments of it turned it into a very nice trigger with a definite click stop at the second stage and less than a pound release with no creep at all.
BD
Buldawg
That’s exactly right. There is no way that a trigger can be adjusted the same for two people and get the optimum result.
It might be good for one person and not the other. Or it could be good for me and almost good for you but not at all for Chris.
We are just lucky that there are good triggers out there to compliment a gun.
Gunfun1
I know you remember how heavy the Hatsan trigger was when you sent it to me in the second stage release and after putting in longer screws and some fine adjusting it turn out to be as good of a trigger as our Marauders or TX/B40 triggers can be adjusted to and the guy I traded it to loves the trigger as it is now. I just wish you could have felt the difference the longer screws made in its feel and release as it was very sweet for sure.
BD
Buldawg
I guess I should of specified why I said exactly right.
I was taking about when you said you have each one of your guns set differently and about how Chris should adjust the trigger on the LGU to help the gun perform better to his way of holding the gun.
But yes I’m betting the trigger got better on the Hatsan. You helped the triggers leverage points out by adding more adjustment.
Gunfun1
I knew what you were meaning as far as Chris adjusting the trigger on the LGU to suit him instead of leaving it as you had it since he will most likely improve if he adjust to his liking and that I have my guns triggers all set slightly different to suit me and the guns characteristics.
I was just telling you and others that most triggers from the factory on middle priced guns have a lawyer trigger that can be much improved by the correct screws being installed and adjusted properly as in the case of the Hatsan even though it is supposed to be a Quattro trigger it sucked as far as the adjustments from the factory are concerned. But then even my high end 1988 model 48s T01 trigger needed the right screws and the shelf for the first stage modified to gain the adjustment needed to be a target style trigger. So it all depends on the gun and person shooting it as to what they like and works for them.
BD
Buldawg
Now I can say exactly right.
🙂
Gunfun1
Yep I agree
BD
BD and GF1,
The LGU has 1st and trigger weight adj. only, no second stage as best I remember.
I don’t mind a long 1st and think of it as a second safety, as long as I can feel the 2nd, which I do on both the TX and LGU.
As for longer screws, I adjusted the LGU pull weight to the point that there seemed to be no internal pressure left on the screw. I did a 1/4 turn at a time and ended up about 4 turns out if I remember correctly. What would a longer screw do except making it stick out further?
Any help would be appreciated as I would love to have the LGU adjusted as light as the TX.
Chris
Chris.
It sound as though you have adjusted the second stage out of the trigger completely and as your first statement said its all first stage.
In my experience when set correctly if both the second and first stage screws are the same length the screw first stage screw will be just slightly screwed in deeper than the second stage screw so that the first stage screw contacts the sear first and then in the triggers travel at about mid way it no longer moves the sear and the second stage screw hits the sear and takes over from there and that is where you will feel and hear the click as the transition from first to second stage takes place. then its just a matter of fine tuning the second stage screw to give the pressure required for the release which is just the amount of increased movement of the trigger required to fire.
Try leaving the first stage trigger screw where it is at and slowly 1/4 turn at a time adjusting the second stage screw in ( tightening ) until the trigger is a hair trigger ( keep barrel pointed in safe direction as it may fire without touching the trigger after closing the cocking lever)
once you find the hair trigger point back off the second stage about 1/4 turn. Then adjust the first stage in ( tighten ) 1/4 turn and see if the hair trigger returns and if it does then back out 1/2 turn and retest and keep backing out the first stage until you feel a definite two stages then its just very fine tuning of the trigger screws to get it to what you like as in 1/8 turn or less at a time.
I am going to look at a schematic of the LGU trigger as it should have three adjustment screws with a trigger pull weight and first and second stage screw but I may be wrong so I may have to amend the above directions and GF1 should be able to help as well.
BD
Chris
I do not know if the target trigger is available from Umarex or not as I could not find it on their site but I did find one in Australia and am providing the link here so you can email them to see what the price is and if its available if you want to adjust the trigger for a true two stage.
But definitely check out the two links at the bottom of the first post on the GTA link I gave you as it will let you see just how the LGU trigger works as it is backwards in relation to most conventional triggers in air guns in that the sear is reversed so that the pivot is behind the trigger blade instead of in front of like most all other guns.
http://www.frontierarms.com.au/products/accessories/walther-lgv-tuning-trigger.html
BD
Chris
I checked on the LGU schematic and all I could find is a owners manual for it and while it does show the trigger adjustments as only being a first stage length and a trigger pull weight if you look at the bottom left of the page with the trigger adjustments you can see a trigger image that has two screws in the trigger blade itself which is what is required to get the true match trigger.
Se attached link for the manual
http://www.umarex.de/en/airguns/spring-operated/604.50.00.html
Here is a GTA post that shows how to improve the factory trigger by installing a longer first stage screw and has links at the bottom with good pictorials on just how to do it . It also shows in the first link at the bottom of the first post a two stage trigger that Hector Medina shows installing but I could not find where to get that trigger. The second link show how to modify the factory trigger to work better with the longer screw but also check out the cool aftermarket trigger in the last link on this post.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86443.0
Here is an aftermarket fully adjustable two stage trigger if you really want to get the best rigger money can buy.
http://rowanengineering.com/products22.htm#adjtrigger
BD
BD76,
Thank you for the info. Notes made and links saved. Yes, it has 1st and pull screws only, no 2nd. and I do have the LGU factory manual.
Wonderful article. I have the pleasant surprise of thinking that I “pulled” a shot: the stock slapped me in the cheek, the gun rolled over on its side after bouncing off my cheek and going over: when I look at the shot through the scope, I see it where I intended to shoot it, but where I thought I was pointing the barrel when the pellet left the barrel.
If you have not done one yet, how about a series on the importance of lock-time? What are the differences between Spring powered, Gas-ram peered, or PCP powered? How does this effect accuracy ?
Thanks,
-Yogi
Should say, “I see it went where I intended to shoot it, fortunately not where I thought I was pointing the barrel when the pellet left the barrel.”
Sorry about that…
-Y
Yogi,
Lock time is a toughie to write about. But I did write about it many years ago. See it here:
/blog/2007/03/will-lighter-spring-piston-components-speed-up-locktime/
B.B.
Hi folks,
interesting topic.
I think I must have been shooting for around two years now, firing about 20.000 shots or maybe some more.
I wouldn’t say I can call shots, but I think I’m developing some kind of “intuition” at least. It seems to be the easiest with a scope or peep sight on a rifle and next to impossible for me with a pistol and open sights.
As I mentioned before, I find the HW45 easier to shoot with a red dot, probably because it is easier to center on the bull and I don’t need to focus on the sight picture. I can now shoot with one hand and a light hold and hit the bull most of the time. I can also often guess correctly if the shot went in the black (at 10m with a 10m pistol target). Maybe the right way would be to master open sights first, but perhaps the HW45 is a little too demanding for that 🙂
Maybe it also doesn’t matter because I can do what I want in my attic…
One thing I am noticing is that I plink less and shoot paper more, probably because I am focusing more on accuracy.
Stephan
B.B.,
Thank you for doing the article. A bit short on time now, but I will make a few comments.
I re-read the article a few times. “Follow through” kept popping up in the back of my mind. On a whim, I typed “follow through” in the Search Box. Presto!,….Aug. 19 2013 ( Calling the Shot and Follow Through ). Talk about timing ! Almost 2 years to the day. I read it and some of the comments. Will re-read it and all the comments later.
In today’s article and the ’13 article, you used a pistol with open sights as an initial example. Scopes were mentioned also. Comments in ’13 noted how springers were a bit different than a PCP in that the “kick” will force movement off of POA, but the the reticle should settle back to it, “after the dust settles”.
“Beazer” commented that NPA ( Natural Point of Aim ) was important as well. Important in that it had to be repeatable and was crucial to the reticle coming back to the POA. If not, then the NPA might need work.
He also talked about how 2 distinct sub groups forming and what that could mean. I shoot with both eyes open and think I do pretty well staying focused on the target after the shot. Springers will not allow you stay on POA, but hopefully you will settle back to it when all is said and done. And hopefully, your POA and POI will be the same.
So,..as a fleeing thought,…follow through, with a scoped rifle, that recoils, seems to be what I need to focus on. My steady is not the best, but it isn’t awful either.
Thanks again, check back later, off to work,…..Chris
B.B.
Thanks for an excellent article. Something I always wanted to know. I remember how difficult it was to shoot good groups with fiber optic sights- the two dots on the rear sights are set so far apart that it takes a lot of concentration
just to keep the front post centered between the two rear dots. I always felt that this was a great drawback and one which made iron sights superior.
Perhaps someone could make a rear sight (could be just an insert) out of clear plastic without the notch. The absence of the notch would enable the manufacturer to move the dots closer together which would make it more accurate. Not sure if you will be able to see the front post through the clear plastic. It that’s not possible, then a third dot below the notch might help.
Pete
Hi Pete,
Have you tried using a peep sight?
The eye naturally aligns the front post in the middle of the aperture and they are very precise.
Vana2
Vana2
I am a big fan of peep sights as well for closer ranges as they are indeed very natural and precise to sight with and can be adjust as precisely as scope crosshairs.
I can use them out to 25 to 30 yards at most then the target get out of focus in the sights and its either a clear front sight and blurry target or clear target and blurry front sight.
All the guns at our local CMP range use peep sights and at 10 meters are super accurate and precise especially with the electronic scoring system they use and I have sight my 600 fps and under guns in there to hit an pencil eraser head laying lengthwise facing you at ten meters or in scoring terms a 10.5 to 10.9 score.
BD
Pete, you can often treat the notch and post like iron sights and ignore the light pipes.
If I line up the 3 dots on my b25, I get a differant elevation than if I properly set the post in the notch.
For my purposes, that is the only relavant complaint of fiber optic sights.
Consistency is a prerequisite to calling the shot. Stance, tension, breathing, trigger pull, etcetera, have to be the same or the shots will be all over.
I think that the ability to call the shot is based on experience.
For every shot, where you know the POI relative to the POA (for that range, good or bad), a mental image is stored with the sight-picture. Every shot taken is compared to the stored data as it is happening and provides feed-back… you can feel when a shot is good and you can feel when it is not.
If I shoot and I can’t call where the shot went then it makes me very uneasy. Continuing to shoot by guessing is detrimental so its back to the bench for me to find out where the POI is relative to the POA.
I have always thought that once it is setup it takes me about two tins before I get the “feel” of the rifle. I shoot at least one tin from the bench at various ranges to learn the trajectory and sight picture before going to small reactive targets that give instant feed-back: good or bad shot.
Just my thoughts on this.
BB– I just read your 2007 post re locktime. One sentence caught my eye–” rather than a fast locktime —a neutral hold and good follow through—“. I own several early Win. model 52 rifles. I also own an early Win. 52 speedlock. They have identical sights and similar stocks. One of the early 52 rifles has a semi-custom stock that is much better than the factory stocks. From a rest or prone position, they all shoot like a modern 52( yes I also have a B,C,D, E to compare them to.) But when I shoot them in the sitting , kneeling and offhand positions, the early speed lock 52 shoots higher scores and tighter groups. The only significant difference is the faster locktime. My hold is the same ( as far as I can tell) with all 4 rifles. I also get the same results with my 1903 Springfield rifles, when I use them with my old Numrich speedlock . I have shot my best offhand and kneeling scores in smallbore rifle competition ( 25 years) with my Rem. 540. It has a faster locktime than any of my other target rifles. That is why I shoot a Rem. 541 in sporter rifle matches. I am convinced that locktime is one of the most important factors ( although not the only factor) in rifle accuracy when shooting in the kneeling, sitting and offhand positions. Ed
I think a faster lock time is always desirable. Because a human can never have the exact same follow thru. Especially when the body and rifle isn’t fully supported.
Vana2, agree that peep sights can be very precise. I had the opportunity to shoot a biathlon rifle (.22) up at the Whistler, BC winter Olympics site, and impressed myself with how accurately I could shot the 50m 1.9″ bull (5/5, yeah baby!). What was also interesting is that they were telling us to keep both eyes open (there was a patch hung to block the left eye). This kept the peep sight image in the aiming eye more round and in focus, was their explanation. But it also made it much easier to follow through, easier even than my scoped air rifle back home. It seemed like I was less likely to blink/flinch when I wasn’t squinting to hold my left eye shut. I am thinking about trying the both eyes open technique with the scope – anybody else tried this?
FWIW, I have been working recently on converting my .177 Marauder to a .22, just to see. I’m on my 2nd barrel in the Crosman lottery program, and this one is better but not grouping very well yet (~1.25″ at 30 yds, with occasional 5-shot groups under 1/2″), but I haven’t finished going through all the varieties of pellets to see what it likes.
Hi Ben,
I come from an archery and shot-gunning background so I have always shot with both eyes open.
I find I can keep both eyes open with scopes up to about 4 power. I “see” through my master eye and the other is used for depth perception and orientation.
With higher power scopes I find the difference in views distracting so I just use one eye.
I’m cross-dominant in that I’m right handed and left eyed so my sighting consists mostly of closing the left eye to acquire proper alignment and slowly relaxing left eye muscles while getting my breathing right.
Both my son and daughter are cross-dominate (take after my wife who is a lefty) so I taught them to shoot left handed.
I wonder if being cross-dominate helps with concentration when you are shooting Reb. Having to consiously switch to the non-dominate eye as you are doing could override other distractions.
I need to try a pair of shooting glasses with the left taped over, because yes having the dominant eye open can be distracting and I feel more “in the zone” with it blocked until the muscles fatigue and start failing.
Vana2 and Reb
I’m left handed and right eye dominant. I shoot right handed. About the only thing I do left handed is write.
And when I started shooting both eyes open as a kid I would have to nlink my left eye to get the sight picture to pop over to my right eye. Then I could keep both eyes open.
Now as I’m older I don’t even have to blink my eye and here is the key word; unless there is a (distraction) in my full feild of veiw. If I loose my concentration on a specific spot of my target then I have to blink. And that even happens very rarely now.
I can pretty well put the gun to my shoulder. Point the gun at the target with both eyes open looking through the scope. Look all around in the yard and come right back to the target. I think the more you shoot with both eyes open and learn to focus the shooting eye on a precise spot the brain will let that eye take over.
Hey GF1!
I am right-dominant, right handed – lucky there ’cause I am easily enough confused 🙂 .
Over the years I have taught myself to work with my left hand because sometimes it is more convenient to saw, hammer or in the martial arts, fight from the otherside. I used to switch-hit when I played baseball – just to bug the out-fielders. LOL!
Vana2
Same with me. When I’m working on something I use either hand. All depends on what’s in front of me.
I came from a rifle background, and was taught by my pappy to close one eye…so that’s how I shoot archery (peep sight), rifle, slingshot. I’m pretty sure I at least squint the left eye when shotgun shooting too, come to think about it.
Now I wonder how much better I might be keeping both eyes open. I will try that with my pellet rifle tonight, if my new pellet trap comes (my homebuilt trap is biting the dust, and has been kicking back pellet “splats” into the yard, so took BB’s advice and bought a heavy Champion .22 cal bullet trap). I use a 16x mag for shooting at 30 yds. because at 4x and I can’t see the target very well. But it should be easy to rig a little piece of cardboard to block my left eye.
Slingshot – always carried one of those as a kid and was pretty deadly with it. Yes, shot them with both eyes open to.
Just bought some latex tubing from Home Depot and promised my granddaughter we would be making a couple of slingshots this weekend (my wife thinks I am in my second childhood – NOT, still in my first LOL!).
I have a peep on my compound bow. I switched from compound to home-made self bows that I shot instinctively. I like the wood bow – simple, light, quiet – and very effective!
Try practicing with both eyes open – think you will find a big difference.
I shoot with one eye closed as well ( left ) and have tried to shoot with both eyes open and it cause my focus thru the scope to go all fuzzy and blurry or my left eye send signals to my brain that it does not like and I just cannot see the target thru the scope correctly so its one eye closed for me even though I know it should be both eyes open. I guess my brain is just to old like me a set in its way and to stubborn to change LOL.
Vana
So are you building wrist rockets or just good ole fashioned slingshots with out the wrist support for the extra power they allow. I used to shoot slingshot as a kid as well and still am like you and in my first childhood only I am getting to go thru it with my grandkids for a second time instead of my kids the first time and am hiving even more fun than I did the first time.
I still have my old wrist rocket but it needs new tubing for it and I have plenty of ball bearings for ammo from my mechanic days as I cut every failed bearing apart and saved the balls just for slingshot ammo so I have numerous sizes to use depending on the prey we were after and was pretty god with it as well and di shoot it with both eyes open.
I know some 1/2 inch plus bearings can be very deadly and devastating on prey or targets out of a wrist rocket pulled back as far as my arms will go and who know it may come back to it being a tool to survive with in the near future.
BD
Ben
I shoot with both eyes open. I shoot mostly at 6 power. It works out for my eyes. But I have shot upto 24 power with both eyes open with no problem.
If you do it enough your brain will make your shooting eye become dominant. It will be second nature to put the gun to your shoulder with both eyes open
The biggest thing that helped me shoot with both eyes open is concentrate on a precise spot on the target. Don’t concentrate on the whole target.
Interesting…
I have started shooting at 10 power when punching paper. Going to try that. I’ll start a 6 and work my way up to see if I can manage the higher powers with both eyes open.
Yes! The pellet will go will go where you focus, just need to be sure that you focus on the right spot!
Well, I tried last night. At 16x, I was able to see the target ok, and yes, concentrating on the target bull helped my right eye maintain focus. And keeping both eyes open definitely helped with follow-through! I tried both ways and found I was usually blinking at the moment of firing when squinting to hold my left eye closed, and not blinking if I tried holding both eyes open. This helped me see that some of my fliers were due to the rifle recoiling back along the gravel bags and letting the poa rise slightly.
But sadly, that change alone didn’t get this darn Mrodr .22 barrel to shoot Crosman premiers any straighter. I have some samples of H+N pellets coming, wish me luck.
Oh and I tried taping over the left lens of my safety glasses…but that actually seemed to make it worse (blurred the image more). I think if I had used a more opaque tape (black electrical tape?) it might have worked better.
Ben
Try some JSB Exact 15.89 grain pellets and see if your Marauder likes them.
Thanks Gunfun1. Should have said, I have tried all three varieties of the JSB Exacts, plus RWS superdomes and a couple of others. I had good luck using the H+N pellets in the specified head sizes for the .177 barrel, so ordered some samples of different head sized 0.22 FTT and Barracuda pellets from a place on ebay.
This was an experiment, to see if I could start outshooting my colleague again (before he bought his Mrodr .22, I was outshooting him all the time with the .177…he got so mad one time he went home early). His .22 bucks the wind and carries more energy downrange, so he gets more birds than me. But after two barrels, I just can’t get the gun to put pellets into a reasonable group, the .177 holds 3/4″ groups out to 50 yards, but the .22 barrels are like shotgun patterns – there are hints of good accuracy (like that one 0.5″ 5-shot group, and a 3/8″ group…and then the next group opens up to as much as 2″. I’m sorting the CP’s and tossing out the ones with bent skirts or other obvious damage. Next I will tear it down again and look for telltales in the baffles – the last barrel had sharp corners on the transfer port that sheared slivers off the pellets. Tried polishing it out, but couldn’t fix the problem, so sent the barrel back.
Ben
I had gen 1 and gen 2 Mrods in all 3 calibers.
Had great luck with the .177 and .25 caliber guns but not good luck with the .22 caliber.
I have heard mixed results on the .22. Mrods. So don’t go by what I say. I’m not sure what to think about them.
But I do got to ask. Any reason you didn’t go with .25 caliber? The only Mrod I have right now is a gen2 wood stock .25 caliber and I love the gun. So far my .25 caliber Mrods have been just as accurate as my .177 Mrods. And I’m getting very similar results at 50 yards as you with both calibers. But the .25 has so much more knock down power and it keeps that energy out at longer distances. And is still accurate out past 50 yards.
Just wondering why you didn’t go .25 caliber.
Gunfun,
There are only a few parts that are different between the .22 and .177 Marauders. All I did was replace the bolt and barrel to convert my .177 Marauder to a 0.22 (the breech is a different part no. also, but the only difference is in the engraving on the side).
The .25 Marauder is a completely different gun so I couldn’t easily convert my .177 to a .25. But I agree, if I was going to buy another Marauder, I’d buy that one.
For $60 or so, I thought why not try it, it’s far cheaper than buying a new gun. And my buddy who bought a new one had good luck, so I thought maybe the .22 barrel problems are a thing of the past.
If I can’t get this 2nd .22 barrel to shoot straight, I’ll give up and convert it back to .177. Even the .177 barrel though, has caused me problems. When I first disassembled it about a month or two ago, when swapping in the 1st .22 barrel, I found out why. The crown on the .17 barrel looked like it had been done by a kindergartner with a triangular file. There was what looks like a lamination (cold weld?) in the end of the barrel, which caught the crown tool and caused it to chatter across about 50% of the perimeter of the crown. I re-crowned the barrel on my little Chinese 7×12 lathe (rolling the chuck by hand and going very slowly), and it cleaned up pretty well (and shoots quite a bit better but still not as good as I’d like). There are still two persistent blemishes in the rifling near the muzzle that won’t clean up. I’m thinking I will try and cut the muzzle end back a little bit to eliminate these, and recrown, in hopes of getting it to shoot better.
But, I still want to get a good .22 rifle, one I don’t have to mess with to make it shoot. I’m looking at the BSA R10, AA 510, FX Wildcat, Cricket bullpups…i.e. I’m willing to spend a bit more to get a good gun (to me, that means able to shoot 1/2″ groups at 50 yds) out of the box. I wish Pyramid carried the FX line, so that BB could do a review and tell us what he thinks about them. :-/
Ben
I had 2 FX Monsoons in .22 caliber.
Both were accurate. But the second one had cycling issues and valve issues.
So just remember just because they cost more that they will be better.
I suggest you get a .25 caliber Mrod and keep some money in your pocket for other things.
And by the way. I was using the Crosman single shot trays in my Marauders. And the .25 caliber Mrod I got now I use the Air Venturi single shot tray because they Crosman doesn’t make them for the .22 or .25 caliber guns anymore. And by the way I have had no problems with the Air Venturi single shot tray.
But I have shot groups with the magazine and groups with the single shot trays. The single shot trays always produce a little better group. Average of about a 1/8″ better group.
Have you tryed the single shot trays?
And suppose to say just because they cost more don’t mean they will be better.
Yes, I have the single shot tray for the .177, and agree it can make the groups a little bit better, also got the tray so I could test some longer pellets than the magazine would hold. The magazines are sure handy when you need to make a quick follow-up shot when hunting.
The monsoon is a semi-auto? I’m fine with a bolt action. But I know what you are saying, and agree. Were there any issues with the seller about returning the gun that had problems?
Also wish BB or one of his minions would do a review on the BSA R-10…or am I missing it in a back issue of his blogs?
Ben
The first one I had was a good one. I shouldn’t of sold it. I’m still bugging the person trying to buy it back.
The second one went back 3 times under warranty. The way I see it that was 3 times to many. I usually work on my guns but since it was under warranty and a higher priced gun I let them work on it.
But ended up reading it in on a different gun.
Oh and yes the Monsoon is semi auto.
Man my phone.
Meant trading it in.
Vana2,
I used to close my right eye (I’m a lefty), but from the very first, when I just opened both eyes and looked through the sight or scope, it made no difference. The results (often sadly) are the same whether both eyes are open or I close the off one.
Michael
Ben T,
I shoot with both eyes open for all iron sights and optical sights (scope and dots). When I started shooting, the fellow who instructed me advised me to keep both eyes open and concentrate on using my dominant eye, which in my case is the same as my dominant side. It takes a bit of practice but its not particularly difficult to master, at least for me. Does this make me a better shooter? Haven’t the slightest idea.
Fred DPRoNJ
B.B.,
I once shot a 10 shot group with 9 fliers. The group of one shot was the tightest group I’ve ever shot!
Michael
Michael,
I like the way you think! 😉
B.B.
Snort 😉
Though, it is encouraging, with any rifle, when that first round hits the black. The temptation to just stop there is sometimes overwhelming!
BenT,
To me if it’s next to the black but still well on-target, that’s fine. What I would love to see is a single ragged hole after ten shots at ten meters. Bullseyes are merely a matter of adjusting the sights.
If the air gun has fixed sights; however, yep, I’m with you. It is thrilling when the shots all go right to the POA.
Michael
Here is something I was thinking about also. BB you mentioned the eye seeing in relation to a pulled shot at the target.
Remember that old saying that goes something like this. “Is the hand quicker than the eye.” I think not.
Here’s what got me thinking about that. And this relates a little to your open sight explanation but goes on step farther.
How do you know if you pull a shot when your useing a dot sight. If the target is far enough away and you can’t see the pellets impact. How do you know when you pull a shot?
It’s all about the feel of the gun when the shot was released at that point. You obviously can’t see your pellet impact. So most of the time I can go to that target and know before I get there that I pulled a shot.
I think what happens is as we have our sight on the target and release that shot. We know if we have our trigger pulled at the precise time that we had our sight on the target. Then we also know if we held the gun good for that shot.
All that follow through does for when we look through a sight like a scope is give us a visual of what the trigger finger did in realation to timing and hold. I believe that we do know when we pull a shot before the pellet hits. We just use follow through to verify what are mind thought.
The 1377 is doing well, I even got a couple decent groups outta the Crosman pointed pellets but it seems to like the rebranded H&N pellets in my stick best so far. I’m outta .177 JSB’s but can’t wait to try some.
Reb
Didn’t you say you were going to put a 1399 stock on it.
Your shooting in close aren’t you? You should try some flat nose wadcutter pellets. I found them to work real good in my stock legnth barreled 1377 out to 30 yards. Well even the long Discovery barreled 1377 liked the wadcutters out to 30 yards.
I think you will be surprised if you try some through it.
It likes the Stoeger X-match(H&N rifle match 8.18 gr wadcutters and did OK with whatever those 50 free Crosman WC’s were that came with it but all my wadcutters went through the QB-36.
Reb
So how did they do in the 36?
The X-match have been a favorite of the QB-36 ever since I got it but it also seems to like the JSB 10.34’s. If I don’t get some at the show I’ll be getting some shortly thereafter.
Groups were just under1.25″ @ 25 yds in the 36 with X-match.
Reb
Not bad. Will them groups be ok for the intended use of that gun?
I never worried too much about guessing where a bad shot went . The only important thing was that it was a bad shot .
Once in a while I could guess where it probably went, but other times it got loose in such a way that I would not have any idea of where it went.
Then there are times that a bad shot still hits where you wanted anyway . Accidents do happen .
twotalon
try this,, concentrate on holding the trigger against the stop until the gun/rifle comes to rest after the shot. Maintain the weapons sight picture until you are ready to re index for the next shot. Old instructor’s tactic to help center fire people overcome recoil.
That does work well for me with most firearms but some of these sproingers have a mind and life of their own.
I just got done reading an account of a shotcycle being described as a slap on the cheek followed by the gun laying over on it’s side.
I have had that explained to me as trigger pull through.
That’s why trigger stops are a important part of a trigger.
I always pull the trigger and keep it applied as part of my follow through. That’s part of what I was talking about above when trigger pressure adjustment makes a difference.
Sometimes a 3 pound trigger is a good thing. It all depends on the weight and recoil timing of that guns shot. A lighter gun being bench rested with a fair shot cycle might bennifit from a heavier trigger. And just the opposite with a heavy gun like a FWB 300s or Diana 54 Air King. The anti recoil system that helps reduce felt recoil in the movement of the gun and the heavier weight could benefit from a exstreamly light trigger pressure.
That’s why I look for a good fully adjustable 2 stage trigger when I’m looking at buying a gun. It makes all the difference in the world how the gun shoots when the trigger is pulled.
Akafalcor43,
Pretty sure I do this already but will give it a concentrated try to be sure. Make’s sense. Thank you. Chris
the trigger follow through technique is more to keep the shooters mind and body concentrated through out the shot or detonation. we train our body’s to prepare for the next action before the last is concluded. This technique will maintain position and hold through the shot.Just the smallest bit of movement or relaxation is exaggerated as the distance increased. I know it works, it worked for my trainee’s and it works for me. Every now and then I get sloppy and have to re-concentrate on basics.
Does anyone know if the barrels are cross compatible between a D34 and D350?
Thanx.
Sam,
it looks like they might be, but it’s hard to say for sure. Which versions of those guns are we talking about anyway? (Panther, Classic, Pro, Compact, etc.; what caliber?).
Diana has many documents in the “downloads” section, but some models seem to be missing…
What are you planning to do?
Stephan
I have a B25 in 22 that I really like and am learning to shoot. Another retailer sometimes sells B28 barrels in .177.
I was thinking of switching barrels and trying a competition. But it seems easier and barely more expensive to just buy a Ruger Airhawk and be done with it.
Was thinking about what kind of shooting to do where scopes aren’t required/desired/allowed.
I just like to shoot with irons or smaller red dots, especially when shooting a fairly lightweight springer.
Sam,
so these guns are Diana clones? I wouldn’t be so sure they are identical to the originals.
If you are planning to buy a Diana barrel, that might be almost half the price of the whole Diana gun… But the rest will still not be a Diana. Airguns are more than a barrel…
If you want a Diana, I guess you should save up and buy one.
Stephan
Yes, the spring guide looks differant. It is sheet metal bent in on itself and folded over.
The rifle shoots good for my purposes. Ground squirrels 25 to 30 yards, and plinking. With open sights.
I want to save for a D48 one day, but have differant financial goals right now. If I was a land manager with a need for a really good air rifle- I’d skip all the dianas and get an Mrod or Air Force gun.
But I have nothing against chinese products. Arbitrage was a part of how America was built. And these things were even more inevitable with the advent of the shipping container.
After all, Bavarian Motor Werks is a funny name for a car built in South Africa.
All,
A lot of talk about which eye is dominate,….How do you know which you are? I am 100% right handed. For some reason I can only close my right eye naturally, when trying to do either/or. I shoot rifle left only, always have. Shoot pistols right handed, always have. Both feel natural.
What am I? Left or Right?
As for shooting with both eyes open, GF1 recommended that I try it. I like it. It works. I shoot 7 mag at 25~30 and 10 mag at 50yds. Both eyes open work for all ranges
Most of all, what really made sense from GF1’s suggestion was,…..your facial muscles will be more relaxed, less fatigued and less prone to any twitches. IT WORKS.
Chris
Chris,
I think what it comes down to is that we really “see” with our brains and the eyes are merely the tools our brains use. when you put one eye behind the sight and leave the other one open, your brain automatically selects the eye you are aiming with. Of course you can consciously choose to focus your other eye and override the unconscious decision to focus on the target with your sighting eye.
Michael
Chris USA
That’s funny you say that. I’m left handed and can only close my right eye naturally. That’s how I went about shooting right handed when I was younger.
I’m going to say try a experment. But its probably going to feel unatural as can be since you have been shooting left handed so long.
Try out the LGU right handed with both eyes open since its got a ambedexterous stock. You never know maybe your a natural right hand shooter and you don’t even know it.
I have tryed the LGU and my Marauders shooting left hand and both eyes open and it feels like I just got transported to a different world. My brain and eyes just won’t work right together looking through the scope. Maybe if I would of switched back and forth between left and right handed back when I was kid I could be successful now.
But now after shooting right handed for so long I think my right eye and brain just take over. Like I said before its just natural for me now with both eyes open and right handed.
Sorry I meant I’m left handed and can only close my left eye naturally.
So that’s how right hand shooting came about for me. I could only close my left I when I learned to shoot before I transitioned into both eyes open.
A southpaw should have good advantage when shooting rightey especially with heavier guns.
Reb
That’s right if I’m not resting the gun when shooting.
My right arm is just as strong as most right hand people. But like what your talking about. My left arm is just as strong as my right arm if not a just a little bit stronger.
So yes its easier for me to hold and shoot a rifle free hand than most people I have shot with..
GF1,
Interesting thought. Honestly,…very honestly,….I stay on “overload” with all I try to keep my mind on while shooting and doing everything “just right”. Really,….it’s (not) that bad and I am getting better. I think I will get it (right) being a “lefty shooter” FIRST,… and THEN consider “righty”. 😉
Really?,……Try’n to give me a “breakdown”?…….. 😉 Chris
Chris USA
Ha ha. Not a breakdown. Just try’n to keep you thinking.
😉
Just keep away from flintlocks ’til you’ve made the swap O_o
Howdy Chris, Mr. BB did a great article awhile back about finding your dominant eye, even included a couple tests. Search for it, helped me ALOT! Another easy, way use your finger as the front sight, both eyes open. Hard focus, front sight. Close one eye then the other. When you close your non dom eye your “front sight” will still be on target, when you close your dominant eye your sight moves off target. Hope that helps. Shoot/ride safe.
Beaz
Thanks Beaz! I found one titled “eyes wide open” that definitely goes into more detail.
Beazer,
Tried it,…it works,…very clear,…no guessing. Thanks,….Chris ( I am left, I shoot left, Good! )
You are blessed! I’m so bad at using a shotgun I’ve got my eye on one to try left handed, I’ve still got plenty of strength in my left but it’s spastic and maybe it’s time I checked how I do using my dominant eye for sighting, dominant hand for weight support and let lefty take care of the light work.
Howdy Chris, all of my wives left me, so, yup, I’m a lefty too!?!
Shoot/ride safe,
Beaz
Quick test for eye dominance: pick something out to point at across the room with both eyes open, alternately close each eye. The one that’s open when you’re still pointing at the right spot is your dominant eye.
Hope I got that right!
⊙
B.B.,
Thank You,…. (very much) for today’s article. What I realized,..is that I can call my shots. I can’t do it all the time, and I do not know all that goes into it. One thing I did learn, that follow through is the first step to calling shots. Apparently I must be doing something right, even though I may not know exactly (what) I did. All I can say,…is I know when I messed up now more often then not.
I will focus on sight picture and picture at time of trigger pull and getting that picture back “after the dust settles”..
I did 3 shots into the (same) hole 3x on 3 different targets over the weekend. The 1st 3 shots. I still can’t believe it. All I can say is that I was a “wee bit” ticked off that I blew the other 7 shots on each and that I “buckled” down on each next group.
I wish I could say more,..but “Thanks” will have to do for now…….Chris
I advocate keeping both eyes open when shooting–however if you cant, you should try shooting glasses with a white patch over one eye ( the non aiming eye). This avoids the problems caused by squinting, and prevents eye strain in the non shooting eye ( can be caused by a black patch). You should experiment with different shades of white and even semi-opaque patches. ( the let light through but you cant see an image. ) You might even wind up with several patches- some for indoor ranges, and others for outdoor shooting. Ed
BB– I have been experimenting with variable weight pellets. I don’t recall ever seeing any posts on this subject. For example–I shoot Crosman premier hollow point pellets (14.3gr) in my .22 cal Sheridan co2 rifle , They are the only .22 pellets that I can get in my local WW and B Box stores. Using a 2.5 x scope I can put at least 4 out of 5 in a .5″ black patch ( and #5 is very close.) I can easily put 10 in an inch patch, all from a rest , indoors an 10 M. If I load a crosman pointed .177 pellet in back of the .22 pellet (7.4 gr), I now have a 21.7 gr pellet. They have the same poi at 10 M, and will also group inside a 1″ black patch. When I am plinking at my outdoor range, ( 10 M), on a windy day, the heavier pellets seem to drift less in the wind. The .177 pellet stays attached to the .22 pellet ( one hole per pellet). This system gives the shooter the ability to find an optimum pellet weight for their gun. It would be possible to use this system in .25 cal and up. All you have to do is load a smaller pellet behind the largerpellet
Ed T
That’s am interesting test and I would think the lighter 177 pellet would tend to slow down faster than the 22 and fall low of the 22s POI but maybe the lighter 177 is stuck in the draft behind the 22 like NASCARs do down the straights so it is very interesting indeed and quite ingenuous as well.
I may have to try it and see if it works but it may only be good at 10 meters and the two pellets may fall apart at longer distances like 20 plus yards but I will try it to see as I do not have an actual 10 meter range set up but have a portable target stand that I can set at any distance I choose out to the 35 yard limit of my backyard.
BD
Ed
I don’t know if that’s a true test. That extra pellet weight is not inducing any drag inside the barrel. So velocity would be different I’m thinking if you had a .22 caliber pellet that weighed 21.7 grains. So then the balistic characteristics would be different.
And if you did your test at a increased distance the pellets should separate.
If you want to prove out that test just find 2 more pellets that are different shapes that weigh 21.7 grains each approximately in .22 caliber.
Shoot those pellets at a couple different distances then do your .177 caliber pellet behind the .22 caliber pellet at those distances.
Look to see if all the groups are similar or different.
I’m willing to bet that the .177 pellet behind the .22 caliber pellet would not group the same as the other single pellets that weigh about the same amount. I could be wrong but would like to know. But not going to happen in any of my guns. Just me. Only the pellet that is proven goes down my barrel one at a time and facincing the right direction. No backward loaded pellets out of my gun either.
Ed,
Mmmmm,….all I can say to that is that you are for sure thinking outside “the box”. Very original.
Ed,
A .22 caliber SHERIDAN CO2 rifle? Really?
I think Sheridan made less than five of them and they were never sold to the public.
Is it possible you have a Benjamin, and are calling it a Sheridan because Crosman combined the names?
Now, what you suggested is something I have never heard of. It would work in a pneumatic, though.
B.B.
My chief concern would be one of the smaller .177 pellets dislodging and falling down the transfer port which would call for compete disassembly if the jam allowed it.
BD , GF—- I am using pointed .177 pellets. I have tried both the cheap Daisy,s and the Crosman preimers. I think that the .177 pellet gets imbedded in the .22 pellet before they leave the barrel. I also think that there is no distortion of the .22 pellet,s skirt. I have not tried them at longer ranges because I am limited to 10M . If pointed pellets are self-centering (and I think that they are) they should not touch the rifling, and therefore should nor affect accuracy I plan to test domed and wc .177 pellets soon. However, I have almost 1000 Daisy and Crosman pellets that do not shoot that well out of my .177 rifles and pistols, so this is a good way to use them up. Ed.
Ed
That’s exactly why it won’t probably be a true test. Yes it’s getting lodged to the other pellet but no drag in the barrel from that pellet. So a single pellet of the same weight would perform different.
But on the other hand if the pellets will stay together. The induced drag leaving the barrelay be less and speed up the heavier pellet.
And you mention your trying to go heavy because of the wind. There is something else that heavy pellet would do is help retain energy at longer distances
So if the pellets do stay together. And that’s the big if. It could work out for longer distances.
And then if you do shoot those 2 pellets together all the time means now your buying 2 tins of pellets all the time. So then cost comes in. But them heavy pellets do usually cost more. So buying the 2 pellets may be cheaper in the long run.
My only problem is I don’t like putting something down the barrel that could do something wrong. Just always been that way.
Maybe people will try it and post their results. If it works out then I will give it a try. And of course only if its accurate.
I accidentally loaded a second Croman pointed in the 1377 night before last, I was concerned it wouldn’t have the Humphrey to get them clear of the barrel but didn’t wanna go through the muzzle with my copper rod so I finished the 10 pumps and crossed my fingers. One pellet on either side of the bull @ 8yds about 3/4″ apart.
Reb
That’s kind of what I mean. Your 2 pellets didn’t stay together as one pellet like Ed is trying.
If the pellets stay together maybe that could work like Ed is suggesting.
I accidentally loaded two pellets in one of my Marauders when I was using the magazines before I switched to single shot trays. Made me cringe after I made the shot. And I was shooting at 50 yards and both pellets missed the target.
But Ed is saying use a smaller caliber pellet behind a larger caliber pellet. I can see that working possibly if the pellets stay together.
But I think that the pellets Ed is talking about might start doing that corkscrew flight after it leves the barrel.
With the front one breaking wind and the turbulence creating that truck bed effect they just may stay together out to 20yds or so especially in a high powered Springer like your old 54.
Reb
I know that’s what Buldawg mentioned with the drafting.
I would like to know at longer distances what Ed is talking about.
Reb
I’m surprised nobody has suggested super gluing the smaller pellet to the bigger one.
Reminds me of my trials with the 392 I’m still looking for it’s favorite.
Reb
Trails with the 392. Did you use super glue on some pellets?
Care to share?
No, I had enough trouble getting groups outta it already but I’m still looking for a pellet it really likes. The Monsters open up too much @25yds for my purposes.
Reb
Oh I thought you were doing some top secret experimting and not telling us.
🙂
Ed
I may try it in one of my crosman springers as I do have some daisy pointed pellets and the crosman 14.3 domed pellets but it will be only one of those as I will not shoot them out of my higher priced guns as GF1 has stated that he will not at all in his guns.
I would have to test the fit of the two pellets to see if they may become married as one from the pressure behind them when shot but I would think CO2 would be the least amount of pressure hitting the rear of the pellets as compared to a magnum springer, pump gun or PCP as CO2 is at the lowest end of the fps range and gas pressure behind the pellet of any air gun made so it may work but would be marginal at best with CO2 as compared to a spring gun, a pump gun or a PCP gun.
BD
I wouldn’t take my chances with a break-barrel but there are configurations that would be more tolerant. Don’t you have a 48 sidelever?
Reb
The only reason I might try it would be in my cheaper crosman break barrels that are 22 caliber.
My RWS 48 is 177 and even if it was 22 I would not use it as its a high end gun and I would not be willing to damage it just for the sake of a test such as this with two pellets at once. So it the cheapo guns or none at all.
BD
The superglue would probably be a good idea then. I’ve heard too much about improper projectiles being imbedded in piston seals.
Reb
There is most definitely no super glue going down the barrels of my guns at all dry or not so that aint going to happen even if it is just to hold the pellets together.
There is now way for pellet material to be imbedded in the piston seal by doing this test as the air is pushing away from the piston seal not sucking back in so I don’t understand how or what you have heard about pellet material being imbedded in a piston seal unless the seal is already damaged and the pellets is not fit in the barrel properly.
BD
Gravity is constant and if the muzzle gets pointed up… Just guessing that’s how it happens.
Reb
Yea gravity is constant but the transfer port is much smaller than the barrel opening so unless the pellets are not fully seated so that some of the skirt is shaved off when shot it should not occur and even still the air movement should blow any small shaving out as the piston moves forward but I guess anything is possible so it could happen I guess.
BD
Buldawg
I would think that the pcp would be the best. Then a pump gun and on down the line.
Just don’t like the idea of a pellet jam. Had one pellet not make it out of the barrel on my Monsoon while I was finishing a rapid fire section. Luckily I heard the gun sound different and let off the trigger. But not before one more pellet made it down the barrel.
It wasn’t good. It took me a while of tapping on a wood dowel rod before I got the pellets to loosen up and com out of the barrel.
Now here’s the thing what could them to pellets ramming each other in the barrel cause. I know Ed is talking 2 pellets at the same time so they are moving together. But I just ain’t taking the chance of my rifling getting messed with in my barrel.
Suppose to say rapid fire session. Not section.
Gunfun1
I agree that it would be best in the order you say but like you I am not willing to test in my PCPs or pump guns and not my high end spring guns either so it would be the cheapo crosman Titans if I do try it which I have not completely decided if I am or not so it was just a statement as to the guns I would use and not use.
I would use a break barrel for the ease of pushing out a jammed pellet if it where to occur but then thats IF I do as I don’t see the real validity of such a test anyway.
BD
That’s why I stocked up on Monsters when I saw them marked down.
Reb
I stocked up on 15.89s from GF1 when he sold his LGU so I got enough for several months at least.
BD
BB–I am using a 2260mb. It is a limited edition of the 2260 that you reviewed back in 2005. If you look at it with a loupe, you can see the crosman label, but you have to be blind to miss the SHERIDAN name. But all you have to do is look at the current Pyramyd website to see it. Ed
I remember that gun! I was looking at it and liked everything except the sights. What size is the rail?
Ed,
That’s right! I remember it now! I told Edie that this rifle was going to gum up the wprks, because it’s a Crosman with a Sheridan name.
I’m sorry. You are correct. This is a Sheridan in .22 caliber.
B.B.
I was checking out the BNM .25 breech/barrel combo again when I got a email from PA advertising a WWII limited edition M712. Something in the description indicated a weathered finish along with a $20 price cut.
Does anyone know anything else about this fresh offering?
Reb
Saw it this morning in my email from PA.
Did you find any other information about it other than I already said?
Nope
Reb– The breech of this rifle (2260mb) looks like the one on the 2300t pistol. I am using aluminium rimfire rings that originally came on a rimfire scope. I am going to try soft silicone tub seal glue to hold the pellets together, although I don’t think that it is necessary. GF–I don’t know why you are so worried about stuck pellets. When that happened to me, I made an auger (like the ones made to clear toilets) out of 4 S&W m41 mainsprings, brazed together, I soldered a small broken screwdriver tip to make the end of the auger. It even got the broken cleaning rod ( well, most of it), out of the barrel. The gun shoots fine, but now I have to shoot bits of pencil lead out of it, instead of the original .22 cal pellets. When I got a pellet stuck in my .177 gun, the auger would not fit, so I heated the barrel with a blow torch (just the place where the pellet was). The pellet melted and ran out. The barrel warped some, but now I use it when I want to shoot around corners. If you want more advice on gun repair just ask. Perhaps I should wait for April 1 before posting this message. Ed
Ed
Now I know who invented that gun that shoots around corners but am just curious do you load pellets from the breech still or the muzzle end or do you heat the pallets to soften them to allow them to make that turn with out slowing down.
BD
Interesting fact! Pellets actually speed up through the bend. Can’t remember where I ran across this but it sounds so interesting it had to be here or a link someone furnished.
Coulda been a discovery from the barrel bending blog
Reb
yea I thought that to but wanted confirmation on it and it must be the vortex effect of the bend creating a increase in the velocity.
BD
Maybe B.B. Will see this and have something he’d like to talk about. 😉
Reb
Yea he should have some good thoughts on the subject.
BD
Ed
All I can say is ouch. Sorry buddy not me. Can’t treat my guns like that.
Ed
Oh and it did make for a nice conversation. But again call it want you want. Aprils fool or whatever. I just hope you refrain from talking that way on the blog.
About the cleaning thing. Ouch again.
And about the smaller pellet diameter behind the bigger pellet diameter. It just might work. But only with super glue holding the two together. 😉
And I have heard some people say they have shot some strange things out of air guns. Haven’t you?
BD– I load from the breech, but I do find a lot of squashed pellets on the floor . I use some of my black powder tools to hammer them into the breech . GF– Their not really my guns. Lots of my club mates loan me their guns so that I can improve and fix them. After my last post, I took an Italian .22 springer (no name on it, just Italy and Sile stamp) and shot a 1″ group ( open sights) with rws hobby pellets at 10 M. I then fired the pellets with Crosman pointed pellets added. These pellets landed in the same group, enlarging it to 1 1/8″. No separation. This rifle has a tight chamber. and I had to use my precision pellet seating tool ( an old Bic pen). I find that hobbys in both calibers are tight fits in most of the rifles and pistols that I have tried them in. I would like to continue, but my neighbor just called. He wants me to return his 15lb. hammer now, and I need it to fix one more air gun tonight. Ed
BB,BD,GF—-Many of my guns are given to me as gifts, A few days after I return the gun to it,s owner, they knock on my door, hand me the gun and say “keep it”. A few are so anxious to give me the gun that they throw it at me, but a gift is a gift. Once that happens, I chisel out their name ( I carved it in as a freeebe) and scratch in my name. I once took a course in stock making at the RABID BEAVER SCHOOL OF WOODWORKING. BB–I think that you attended this school. I was told that they had a plaque with your name on it, but they used it for firewood, one cold day when they were short of fuel. I was awarded a 4th place medal (it really was a booby prize). At least you could see that my stock was still a piece of wood. All the losers could show for their efforts was a pile of splinters, wood shavings and a lot of sawdust. Ed