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Fun at the flea marketFinding a Haviland & Gunn BB pistol

by B.B. Pelletier

One of the things I miss about the days of The Airgun Letter was the local flea market my wife and I attended every Sunday for two decades. It was a gold mine for rare and vintage airguns–some of which I bought and others I let slip through my fingers. Today, though, I’d like to tell about the gun my wife, Edith, found. It turned out to be the best deal we ever closed at that market!

I have told this tale briefly in the blog twice before, but today you’ll read the entire thing.

The Columbia, Maryland, flea market was held in the parking lot of the Columbia Mall. Once every month, it expanded many times in size and called it Super Sunday.

On the day in question, the flea market had actually become smaller and less exciting for us. It had already given up many super finds, and I guess we’d become jaded by our success. You know how it is. You go there with the idea of finding a new-in-the-box Sheridan Supergrade and are disappointed at having to put up with not one but two tinplate Sentinel BB guns for $100 each. As well-worn as they were, they were only worth about $600-800 each, so you wisely passed them up. Thank goodness they never had the bad manners to ever appear again! Unfortunately, neither did that Sheridan in the box.

On the Sunday in question, I’d gone to the flea market and made a quick pass-through on my own in the morning. Gotta get there early if you wanna get the worms! But this day, Edith was also set on going, so I went back with her that afternoon.

She was eyeballing the contents of a glass case filled with an assortment of trinkets…Avon containers, jewelry, scarves, wrist watches, plastic squirt guns and more. She saw a shiny object sticking up through the jumble and carefully dug in to pick it up. As she pulled it out, she noticed it was a gun. It didn’t look like any gun she’d ever seen, so she asked the vendor if he knew what it was. He thought it was a metal squirt gun that was missing the stopper on the water reservoir. Edith turned to me and said that she didn’t think it was a squirt gun, then offered the guy $5–and he was glad to get it.

Small cast iron pistol was a puzzlement to the vendor who sold it.

The pistol was a small cast-iron gun with screw threads in the bottom of the grip. I noticed that the base of the butt had a spring retainer plate screwed in, so I unscrewed it. Out came the spring retainer, a coiled steel spring and a steel rod with a leather washer in the shape of a fat doughnut between two metal plates. That was a spring-piston powerplant, no doubt. It had nothing to do with water!

Disassembly revealed a spring-piston powerplant. No doubt this is an airgun!

The pistol has a breech that is obviously sealed by a part this gun was missing. I assembled the parts after oiling the leather seal, then I loaded a .177 round lead ball in the barrel and held my finger over the breech. When the gun fired, the ball came out with some force! This was definitely a BB gun.

A breechblock is missing. It fits in the groove at the base of the breech to seal the air generated by the piston–another leather breech seal.

The Blue Book of Airguns wasn’t published in those days, but if it had been I would have learned that we had a Haviland & Gunn model of 1872. According to the price guide in the latest book, the value today is about $500 for what we had, though a buyer might be willing to pay more, because of the rarity of the piece. The spring retainer plate is stamped with a May 21, 1872 patent date.

The gun is cocked by pulling down on the steel piston rod. Seeing those threads in the base of the grip, the vendor thought a water hose was supposed to be attached to the gun. It fit the story he made up, and I guess he believed it.

After showing the gun around at the next Roanoke Airgun Expo, collector Roger Blaisdell told me a friend of his would make a breech for the gun if I wanted. I had it made and the little gun actually fired after a fashion

Three years after Edith made her find, a friend of mine bought a rare Pope air pistol at the same flea market. My own list of finds from there runs into double digits, with some of them being quite remarkable. But nothing ever equaled that penny-on-a-dollar find Edith found that Sunday so many years ago.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

177 thoughts on “Fun at the flea marketFinding a Haviland & Gunn BB pistol”

  1. Josh,

    It’s impossible to determine. The spring does look like springs taken from other guns, but no one really knows for sure. The leather would have to have been remarkable to have lasted in supple condition all that time.


  2. B.B.
    This has sparked me into airgun hunting. Can you recommend shows or stores where I can find vintage guns. Specifically old Diana rifles.
    Furthermore, just yesterday I found a crosman 1322 Medalist? It has a sliding breech cover. It’s been in my neighbors attic for 4 years unused. I guessing he never oiled it. But it looks and feels sound. I haven’t yet pumped it or anything.
    Should i shoot it to get the dust out of the valves then pellgunoil it. Or oil before I shoot it?
    Sorry about all the reading you have todo.

  3. Thanks B.B.
    It works I just launched a .22 pellet clean through 2 old pop cans. Your tip helped me fix my new plinker. Just might call him just in case.
    I really appreciate your advice

  4. Josh, from the little small-game hunting I’ve done and from what other hunters have told me… hunting for airguns isn’t much different. You’ll generally spend a LOT more time looking than finding.

    Online auction sites are good, but bargains are less likely to be found. Local flea markets as BB related may or may not be profitable, it depends on the local climate of the market. For example – in NJ, anyone who had the pistol BB wrote about on his table could be arrested unless he was an FFL.

    Old, hole-in-the-wall gun shops and pawn shops can have stuff, too. But be careful… some of those places think that something is automatically worth $500 if it’s old… even if it’s worth $50.

  5. As one who lives in Columbia, I wish that flea market were still held at the mall. Sadly, it hasn’t been around for a number of years now.

    I know there are other folks who live in the Columbia, MD area and regularly comment on the blog. Let us know who you are; we could get together!

    Additionally, does anyone in this area know what flea markets still have good airgun finds?

  6. The right question to ask is where to find the local flea mkt.the biggest gems come from the most unlikely places.a flea mkt. is like a fishing hole,they all have potential but nothing is guaranteed.put your eyes on everything twice,and don’t think just asking is good enough.Edith didn’t find that gem by asking,but by finding it.the vendor had no idea it was an airgun.two weeks ago I bought a Daisy 822.the flea mkt. guy told me it was broken.he tried to fire it with a 177 cal. pellet!turns out 22 cal. pellets work much better….go figure!Anyway,the point is you have to assume these gems are out there to find them.its almost too late once someone knows what we do.play your cards close to the vest,be nice to everyone,and good luck! FrankB

  7. Anon. BB was being sarcastic.I assume he passed on it because he thought 100 was a little high,once he knew better the gun was gone.it’s”the one that got away”.you never forget them! FrankB

  8. B.B.,

    I really like this topic and similar ones you’ve written, like the “Ones the got away” (and the ones that didn’t) I remember seeing in the pyramyd air newspaper that was included in several orders I received.

    Must be the bargain hunter in me. I think there’s always a bargain out there I just have to find it. I can remember way back when newspapers still allowed firearms to be advertised in the classified ad’s section. It was usually what I first turned to when reading the morning paper. You had to be first on the phone to have a chance at the deals.

    Still occasionally find myself stopping at garage sales, in older, more established neighborhoods (not the newer neighborhoods with tables of baby clothes) to locate that airgun in great shape that the widow didn’t even know her husband owned.

    I’ll share a secret. I printed some cards off my home computer, “Kevin buys bb guns and pellet guns for cash”. Since I haven’t broken the habit of stopping in gun shops, everytime I stop by a firearm dealer I hand them several of my homemade cards. Most firearm dealers are offended by the idea of putting an air rifle on their rack next to the “real” guns. Most firearm dealers don’t know airgun values and don’t care to know. But people walk into their gun shop wanting to sell or trade their airgun. These customers don’t know where else to sell it or what its’ worth so they go to the gun shop. Although I’ve only had a dozen calls and it usually ends up being a waste of time, this is how I acquired my diana 27.


  9. I feel your pain on that one tom!we talked about Case knives a few days back.the following day I found a case bowie NIB from 1984 for 111$.thats XX with six dots.pretty good find at an alabama hardware store! FrankB

  10. Matt61,

    Unfortunately (fortunately?) the former gun range used by camp hale is on federal land (national forest). But no one ever goes there. Very few people even know where it is.


  11. B.B.,

    I’m still looking for a topic that would qualify as a guest blog to give you an hour off. Not sure the diana 27 story would qualify. He took it on consignment, marked it down twice, I offered him $40.00 he took $45.00 since it didn’t shoot strong. Went home, put 10 drops of oil down the barrel (as you suggest) and the next afternoon it was shooting like new. Not sure if that 27 had been shot more than 10 times, if that, before I got it. Like brand new. Still has the pimple on the butt per factory.

    I’ll keep searching for a topic that could be stretched into more than one paragraph.


  12. Herb,

    Thanks for the heads up on the new marauder on PA’s site.

    Thought this was interesting:

    The first 100 Marauders will be sold by Crosman on their site. You can order one at full MSRP from Crosman. After the first 100 are sold, Pyramyd AIR will sell Marauders at a discounted price.


  13. B.B.

    That’s some confidence to take apart things you haven’t seen before, and what a nice feature of airguns that you can test them by using your finger for a missing part.

    All, on the relative short distance of airgun shooting, I read last night in my American Rifle book that some of the storied shooting feats of American history took place at a fairly short range. The 40 soldiers shot by Alvin York in WWI in his Medal of Honor winning effort were about 40 yards away. This was almost identical to the contests York had trained himself on in rural Tennessee where the heads of turkeys were shot at 40 yards with a rest and 27 standing. The book also has a picture of Annie Oakley shooting an apple off her dog’s head at a little over 5 yards. We’re already there with airguns.


  14. B.B.,

    I owe you. I’ll do a guest blog. Wait until I get my first pcp and I’ll let you decide which topic you think would be best.

    I’ve learned to ask more questions rather than drive across town to find out it’s a gamo. Last “false alarm” was a pawn shop that called and said it has a wood stock, excellent condition, no scratches, underlever, great metal and looked like it had never been fired. No markings. Drove 30 minutes to find out it was one of these cheap chinese guns that sell for $15.00 each or $100.00 for an entire crate of them.

    Hey wayne!


  15. B.B.,

    I know from reading this wonderful blog for so long that that are many great, successful salesman that contribute like, wayne, volvo, etc.

    But now I know who the best is.


  16. Kevin,

    Yes, B.B. is the master. I still owe a guest blog on my QB-78 but I’m waiting for pellets that the tuner recommended for it. (Out of stock)

    What scope did you get for your AA S410? I usually follow a 50% cost rule of the rifle, but with a $1200 gun I want to scale the % back a tad. Many of mine are older, ordered directly from Beeman eons ago so I have been slowly replacing them as they give out.
    Remarkably, it’s the oldest Bushnell’s that have endured the longest.

    Life on a PCP is undoubtly much easier than a springer and I’d guess a good one will last forever.

  17. Hm, this just in. I am informed that the poison benzene is a common ingredient in gun cleaning materials and that I may be slowly degrading my health. My attention has been focused on the threats from lead. Anyone know anything about the risks from benzene?

    And Kevin’s comment about the out-of-stock pellets reminds me of the tremendous run on firearms ammo. Has anyone noticed this? My beloved Black Hills .223 ammo cannot be found anywhere. Here’s one form of buying that has not been curtailed by the economy. At least airgun pellets are still abundant.


  18. Volvo,

    Re: New scopes on new guns

    You follow a 50% cost rule on a scope for a new gun? Man after my own heart. I like good glass. I’m constantly impressed by the value of leapers scopes. Can’t tell you how many leapers I’ve bought for airguns. A few weeks back wayne helped get me another 3 leapers scopes.

    I’ve never really splurged on glass even though I appreciate it. OK, one time. An appreciative client took a 7 point. Out of gratitude he ordered me a custom shop weatherby mark v. I think he took pity since mine was so beat up. Had to send in measurements of arms, chest, fingers the whole nine yards. Took almost 2 years but when the gun arrived I about fell over. I justified putting a zeiss on it since I didn’t pay anything for the gun. Great combo. Never been in the field. Kept taking my old beat up .300 with an old 4-12 redfield with range finder.

    Anyway, to answer your question, I did kind of splurge. Bought a 7-21×40 bushnell elite 3200. Great optics, mil dots and only 15 oz. vs. my 3-12×44 leapers at over 21 oz. I think it’s a good fit for the AA S410. Can’t wait to get it on the gun.


  19. derrick38,

    Are you talking about the TX200 I bought last week on the auction site? Yes, I won. Haven’t seen the gun yet. Or are you talking about the Sidelever AA S410 that I don’t think I’ll ever see?

    Beginning to think this gun is like bigfoot. Lot of people have seen ’em and heard of ’em but no one has one.


  20. Anyone,

    I just got a Discovery and am having a great time with it. A big part of the hobby, to me, is modding the guns just how I like them. I’m going to shoot the discovery a while before I do any serious mods, but one thing I would like to do is refinish the stock and possibly try to clean up the metal a little. The finish on the metal is a little rough and uneven. I am considering painting the barrel and tube like Mo did in his guest blog, but I was also wondering if there’s a way to darken the bluing. That would still leave the metal a little rough though. The thing that concerns me about painting the gun is the fact that there are different parts on the barrel. I don’t want to glue them all together with paint and I think that if I paint them separately they will scratch each other up when I reassemble it. Does anyone have any suggestions for refinishing the metal or the stock?

  21. Kevin,

    I don’t know anything about cold bluing. Do you have to remove the bluing that is already there or can you go over it. I have never done any type of metal finishing, so any help would be appreciated.

  22. UW Hunter,

    Nothing can beat a good hot blueing (factory) process. But the cost is significant. A distant second is cold blueing.

    You don’t need hot tanks therefor you can do it in your garage. You don’t have to remove the existing blueing you can “blend” it. Matching the blueing is like matching stains in woodworking. Get the right blue since cold blueing products can create more of a grey finish. Like staining woodwork, it takes some practice. Matching stains and finish is an art. I’d suggest googling “cold blueing a gun” or the like and do some research.

    In my opinion, cold blue is a better option for you for all the reasons you stated and more.


  23. Matt,

    RE: Benzene

    What you’re looking for with any chemical, or chemical product, is the “Material Safety Data Sheet”, MSDS for short.

    For benzene see for instance:

    It reads like bad news. The only oversight is that there isn’t a MSDS for applesauce. It would be every bit as scary…

    I wouldn’t inject benzene, ingest it, or huff it. But benzene is in gasoline for instance. Haven’t noticed anyone at gas pump falling over dead yet. In my organic chem lab I used to bath in benzene.

    Exposure to chemicals should be minimized no doubt. But I often laugh at the nuts that hear “C-H-E-M-I-C-A-L” and have a sanitary event. Even though it is named “STRAWBERRY” don’t you realize that it has thousands of CHEMICALS in it? Look around. Everything is a chemical compound of one sort or another.

    So for whatever gun cleaner you use, look for the MSDS and follow the directions for safe use. Don’t panic. In the middle ages folks lived to 30. Now we live to a 100. The industrialization of society isn’t all bad.


  24. UW Hunter,

    Here's another interim step you may want to consider before you reblue your discovery. I know your goal is to darken the blueing so this may not get you all the way there.

    Here's my disclaimer. I have never owned a discovery so I don't know the quality of the blueing. I've read many times that the reason this gun is such a bargain is because the internals were the priority in designing the gun not the fit and finish.

    Having said that, a month ago I purchased two chinese B-26's as gifts for twin boys. They were tuned before arriving and I was pleased with their performance. Everything I read was true. The finish on the metal was rough and the blueing was dull with significantly more surface rust leaching through the blueing (normal, even on a new gun) than you would expect on new guns. The stock stain was blotchy and dry.

    Before I mounted the scopes I took #0000 steel wool dampened with ballistol and rubbed the metal. Smoothed it out. Then I removed the oil with isoprophyl alchohol. Then I took Mothers Mag & Wheel Polish (old trick) and rubbed the metal down. Took a clean, soft rag and buffed the metal. Put a light coat of ballistol on afterwards. Looked like the blueing on a $800.00 gun when I was done.

    I used permalyn on the stock (Volvo uses tibetan almond stick, very good product, PA carries it) and followed with maguires wax. Any good car wax will give you a good protection.

    As with any new application please try this in an unconspicuous area before diving in head first on the entire gun and see if you like the results before proceeding.

    Another option to consider if you're not already swamped with ideas and information.


  25. Mr B.,

    Re: Maybe B.B. when he gets his schedule back under control and catches up with current topics, would talk about HPA pumps.

    Would it surprise you to learn that B.B. already has? (Is there anything he hasn’t written about at least once? Unbelievable)


    Here’s another one:



  26. Matt,

    I’m with Herb on this one. They used asbestos in kid’s pajamas. I remember using a liquid aluminum like primer that was also deadly. I had a two pack a day habit in second hand smoke by the time I was 3. I’ve been cleaning guns since I was 8 or 9. Not to mention my Mom kept a jar of bacon fat in the fridge to cook with. Yummy. Sure, I’ve got some extra growths here and there – but it takes a lot to kill someone. You’ll be ok.


    Nice scope. $362.99 isn’t bad, but I feel bad since I went cheap and a just ordered a Hawke from PA. Never owned one yet but read some good things. I can always demote it to a lesser rifle.

    UPS tracking says the FX is already in Indiana. Won’t be long now.

    UV Hunter,

    Forgive Kevin, but an almond stick or wax won’t be of any help on the Discovery stock if it is like mine was. You’ll need to sand and refinish it, which I’m sure you know. The gun has a ton of potential; it’s just not a looker to start. The lack of finish is very conspicuous.

  27. Kevin,

    Thanks again! Got a blog topic for you–how we can fine tune our use of this blog’s search features. 🙂 Yes I remember about the cooling off after 5 minutes of pumping and don’t take take one appart. PA offered to send me the o rings to rebuild the Discovery pump. Said it was no big deal to do. Easy for him to say, but for me possibly yes,. But which is it? That is my question, what exactly is involved?

  28. Kevin,

    I wood half nevur cawth yu, butt it’s grate too no that yu can catch yursalf fur me.. another member of my staff at work.. thankyu all very mush yu’ alll doin goood..

    The companiee is grow fastur than we plannneeed!!

    Wacky Wayne

  29. diana 27 heaven..

    The more I buy, the more I want… this last one came in pre-tuned, with a little loss of bluing.. a .22 cal “prewar” model…. I got a great deal on late at night on the yellow, from my new friend “Mo” Matthew..

    Even “old eyes wayne” can group 10 shots on the 3″ shoot n see at 18 yards off hand with the open sights.. and such a min recoil perfect thud.. I’m not missing the 5- HW-30 I’ve traded off now for these great old guys, at all now… But, I’m still sending it off to Vince for sight work, (the rear sights are wobbelly and I want the new custom peep sight he’s putting on the other one we got this weekend..)… So we can play the long distance game with ya’ll…

    I’m going for all we can get of these old classics!! I’ve got an advantage here on the west coast.. I check the late night listings after practice.. HA Hah!!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  30. Volvo, Kevin & Matt61

    Extra growths are a good thing..It's all in the way you look at it… and believe.. the power of thought, don't ya know…

    In this world, one has to use mind over matter, every breath can be your last, or the beginning of it… or the next moment of bliss.. what's your choice?

    Wacky Wayne… choosing bliss..

  31. Not advocating total recklessness, just some common sense. Look at safety information on “everyday” products like gasoline, motor oil, Drano, and oven cleaner. If you mix Chlorax and ammonia, then you’ll get chlorine gas – the same gas used in WW1 in gas attacks on the battlefield.

    Just don’t eat or smoke when using chemicals. Generally use in well ventilated area, safety glasses if something like Drano that can get splashed. Wear appropriate clothing.

    PS – You know how to tell if a guy is a chemist? He washes his hands before he goes to the bathroom! 🙂


  32. Thanks for the tips on cleaning up my Discovery. I am glad the gun was made the way i twas partially because I like to do this kind of thing and partially because if they had done it at the factory, I couldn’t afford the gun.
    Thanks for the help and links. I’m going to try the steel wool trick. I have nothing to lose right? If it doesn’t work, I’ll need to re-blue the gun which is what I was planning on anyway. I’m not familiar with Mother’s Mag and Wheel Polish. Is it easy to find, or is there a good substitute?

  33. Volvo,

    Re: Scope

    $275.00 on yellow. Thanks will. FX in Indiana? What does that mean? Monday? As you know the cyclone was my second choice. Anxious to hear.

    Mr B.,

    Re: Which is it

    If PA wants to send “O” rings you’ve got their blessing to take it apart and fix. Who knows, maybe, as they say, it may be easy. If you don’t succeed then send it back and have them do it! If you get stuck I’m sure stacy or boris? (tech support) can walk you through it. As far as searching the blog, I’m still learning. The trick for me is key words. Have to keep modifying them to find what I’m looking for. Of course, I’m an idiot.


    YOU CAUGHT ME. Spelling. I knew it was coming. I’m right with you on the 27. Everyone should own one. I figured you would own 3 or 4 eventually. Wish I had an extra set of stock sites for the 27 to send you. Have you thought about asking on the vintage forum? Lot of great guys there.

    UW Hunter,

    I believe Volvo. He’s had a discovery in his hands. Maybe the stock is beyond help without sanding and refinishing. I agree that you don’t have much to lose trying to elevate the finish on the metal. If it doesn’t work you can cold blue. But…try a small area first.


  34. UW Hunter,

    Sorry. Where to find Mothers Mag & Wheel Polish. Any automotive store. AutoZone, Checker, etc. In the auto detailing section. Don't have a good alternative. They've made Mothers Mag since I was a teenager. Like 3 in 1, it's always been there.


  35. Herb,

    I remember benzene from organic chemistry class, so I figured you would know. Thanks.

    Kevin, that custom Weatherby sounds incredible. You must have had some unusual clients.


  36. Wayne,

    One last thought about your diana 27’s. I think your pre-war diana has a fixed front sight. But If you have or if you acquire a later model 27 they have dovetails that the front sight slides onto and is “squeezed” by a single screw. If so, the front sight can come off by loosening this screw. Then, the aftermarket diana front globe sight that accepts inserts can be installed and you’re almost unlimited to the types of inserts including clear plastic that can be effectively used with a rear peep. PA has sets of beeman inserts that I think will work. If not google “globe sight inserts”. Even though PA doesn’t say this sight will work on a diana 27 it will. I bought one and installed it on my 1980 model. Here it is:


    Great fun.


  37. Matt61,

    Unusual. That’s the word I’ve been looking for all these years.

    Yes, it’s a very decorative piece. Lace and frills. He had an elk scene engraved and the stock is some kind of exotic wood that I can’t remember the name of. They even did gold enlay in the engraving and engraved the trigger guard to match the engraved scope rings. Kind of too much. Looks like it belongs on a coffee table rather than on a saddle in the field. Don’t get me wrong, every time I look at the gun I think of Charles and the great gesture.


  38. Volvo,

    Been meaning to ask you, Do you know if that .20 cal. R1 on paul watts site that was just listed is a new one or the old one from months ago that he didn’t sell?


  39. Kevin,thank you those are awesome tips on “detailing” an airgun.I had one with rust where the bluing had gotten thin and made the mistake of using naval jelly.it sounds harmless enough…NEVER put naval jelly on blued steel!!!it stripped to bare steel in 10 seconds.I’m sure everyone knows this but me.now I have to coldblue the whole barrel.I have found a cleaning pellet recessed 1/8 inch in the muzzle and a drop of candle wax seals the crown good when cold bluing a barrel…Frank B

  40. Kevin,

    Thanks for the sight info, I’ll check it out..

    I’m really enjoying these old springers shooting 300fps to 650fps.. not shooting them much… but each shot is a pleasure! and the collection grows…
    See what you started B.B.!!!

    Ashland Air Rile Range

  41. Wayne,

    Can’t get to those great springers you own? Too much FT practice?

    That was a great buy on the Mark II. It’s unbelievable the mods being made to that model. Think I saw you sell a mac I mod awhile back. Is this a new mod project? Guest blog topic for you?


  42. Impromptu Pellet Review:

    I am mystified at how radically different pellets are compared to each other. This doesn't mean any of these pellets are good or bad, it just means that different brands will group in radically different places from each other. I singled out JSB Exacts because I haven't shot them very much and was interested in how they would do. FWIW, they're very good.

    This is a primitive graphic representation of my six shot shooting pattern. I had to put the dashes in to maintain position. Number 6 is the 1/8" bullseye.

    —–6 5

    I'm bench shooting a Daisy 953, 10m indoor range, .177 pellets.
    I set my scope to hit a 1/8" bullseye with JSB Exacts 8.4 (and they can do it, too) then shot 5 different brands of pellets to see how they compare. I shot the JSB last to make sure the scope was still aimed correctly and hit the bulls eye. I shot the 1-6 sequence a second time to make sure it wasn't all me and had similar results. Both times the JSB was in the 1/8" bullseye where the scope said it should be.

    Distances are from the bulls eye.

    1=RWS Supermag – up/right, 1" away
    2=R10 Match – up/right, 1/2" away
    3=Meisterkugeln – up/right 1/4" away
    4=RWS Hobby – same hole as 2
    5=Beeman H&N – right, 1/4" away
    6=JSB Exact – bullseye

    I think it's odd that EVERYTHING else is up and/or right of the JSBs. Or the JSBs down and/or left, however you want to look at it. What could there be in the design of a JSB that would cause it to consistently shoot to the left of everything else? Or the design of the Supermag, for that matter, to be so radically to the right? The big difference is that the JSBs are domed and the others are flat which may cause the JSB anomaly but why the consistency to the left? I'm left with the answer, "Just because."


  43. Kevin,

    Way too many for me to shoot now.. but our membership grows, along with the inventory.. I’m just having too much fun “tradin” to stop now!!

    This morning, I just grabbed another crosman 600 tuned by Mac I.. not a great price, but looks like a nice one.. all ready to go..

    Not a mod project for me!!.. I’m just buying/selling and shooting.. Vince is doing the work.. I just play!!

    But I might do a report on the comparison of a few.. “Lousy shooter, shoots nice pistols”

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  44. Chuck,

    Although I can’t vouch for the exactly the way the particular pellets move, your experiences are exactly like mine. I was surprised that not only did the group change size, they change location as you change pellets. Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting I guess.

    Straight up and down would seem all that should happen by first principles. Assuming the same power, as the weight of the pellet changes, the POI would move up or down.

    * But then is the scope aligned perfectly vertically above the boreline?
    * The pellets spin.
    * Not only does the weight of the pellet cause the POI to shift, it also means that the time of flight will be slightly different for the pellets. Thus I wonder what would happen if the pellets flew the same time.

    All in all, I can on surmise that we’ve stepped into something which defies a simply explanation. The pellets path is not a 2-D ballistic arc, but a 3-D ballistic arc. We end with only a childish answer “because that is the way it is…,” as you noted.

    Obviously a problem that has perplexed shooters from day 1. Thus all the target practice, selection of a “favorite” ammo, and range charts.


  45. RE: fine tune our use of this blog’s search features

    (1) Start with BB’s search function

    (2) When you get the results change “blogurl:” to “site:”

    By using the “site:” term you restrict the search to BB’s blog as opposed to the whole world wide web. For a reason I do not know, “site” and “blog” just don’t work the same.

    (3) Then over on the right use “Advanced blog search”

    Read all options that Google gives you.


  46. !@#$%^&*( Should have tried it first…

    (1) Start with BB's search function

    (2) When you get the results change "blogurl:" to "site:"

    (3) Click "Search the web" button

    (4) Get a second page of results.

    (5) Now chose "Advanced Search" to the right of the Search button

    Now read all of the options that Google gives you.

  47. Chuck,

    Thank you very much for your post above, with your useful attempt at graphic representation of pellet grouping. A graph/picture is worth several hundred words, and I am a bit surprised that other writers do not attempt what you have.


    Your search tips are really right on, smart guy! Thanx.

    I am intrigued by this topic re. pellets, and have taken many measurements and spent much time readindg and thinking about this. Certainly one of the factors that you may want to include when you ponder your results is the actual speed of the pellet as shot, versus the expected speed based on the weight alone of the pellet. The diameter of the pellet (how snugly it fits) has a very significant impact on the speed of the pellet, and I often see that a heavier, more snugly fitting pellet will actually travel faster than a lighter pellet which fits more loosely in the barrel.

    So, Chuck, I am curious to know what the speeds of all your pellets were (best would be the speed at the 10 yard point) in your missive above.

    I wonder if rimfire ammunition follows the same pattern, viz. different bullets form different group locations which are only partially explained by speed of bullet at impact point and remain a mystery as to why some consistently group left and others consistenly group right.

    I have no doubt that with his artillery background that B.B. has some insights. And of course Rockets Jane must have some relevant information as well.

    – Dr. G.

  48. Here's some more interesting results: I shot JSB then Super mag in my CO2 S&W 586 pistol and they all grouped at same level. I then shot my springer IZH-61 and the Supermags grouped high and to the left of the JSBs. Then I shot my CO2 Walther rifle and they all grouped at same level. ????? The results are gun and/or propellant related, not pellet related?! If results were pellet related then there never should have been any at the same level with any gun. Is that fair to say?


    Single pump 953 – Supermags 1" high and right of JSB

    CO2 Pistol – Supermag and JSB same level

    Springer 61 – Supermag 1" high and LEFT of JSB

    CO2 rifle – Supermag and JSB same level


  49. Dr. G.,
    Unfortunately, I can only tell you what speed the gun is supposed to shoot not what they actually shoot because I don’t have a crony. I looked into buying one but my shooting range has all fluorescent lighting and as I understand it chronys don’t work under that lighting. I can’t get too excited about redoing my lighting.

    Has anyone come up with an inexpensive reliable way to overcome fluorescent lighting? If the new “green” fluorescent light bulb craze replacing incandescent bulbs succeeds chrony users will be hurtin. I know you can buy bulbs to attach to the chrony diffusers but will I have to shoot in the dark or will they outshine the fluorescent if I leave them on?


  50. Chuck,

    I don’t have any RWS Supermag pellets. Since I was interested in varmint control, I stocked up mainly on roundheads after experimentation with all sorts of hollowpoints. (That old fellow, what’s him name, oh ya – BB something another, just might know something about airguns after all. He has consistently stated the point – “First you got to hit’em…and domed pellets are best for distance, accuracy, and punch.”)

    I did note that ChairGun has BCs for the two 0.177 pellets:

    JSB Exact 0.0220
    RWS SuperMag 0.0120

    So it would seem that the RWS pellet is both heavier and has a lower BC. Both of those factors would seem to indicate that it would be lower than the JSB. (Of course ChairGun could be wrong about BC.)

    I don’t have a clue as to how to sort the pellet variations out. There obviously is some answer. The analysis is just a lot more complex than just weight, or weight and BC.

    I don’t have nearly as good a gun as the 953. My best 0.177 is a CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP Daisy 880. Shoots circles around my “expensive” Crosman G1.

    I just may buy a second chrony, so that I can measure downrange fps too on same shot. I could use averages, but that requires a lot more shooting.


  51. B.B.,
    Thanks, that does explain the “mystery” between springer and CO2, but my single pump 953 and CO2s have similar (virtually unnoticeable) recoil yet the results are way dramatic. Do you think the 953 recoil, even though unnoticeable, is still more than the CO2 and enough to cause that difference?

  52. Re: Overcoming fluorescent lights

    Like Einstein said, “It’s all relative.”

    Fluorescent lights are a no-no because there is a 120 cycle “hum” in light level. The phosphor in lights averages the 120 cycles out some, but not enough. Standard incandescent lights will also have 120 cycle hum, but to a much less degree.

    If you’re going to use something in the presence of fluorescent lights, then you’d have to make the “other” light much stronger in a relative sense. At some point you could have so much light going into sensor that you’d just overwhelm it. So you might have to shade sensors from fluorescent light too.

    I’ve been trying to figure out how to mount my chrony in some sort of box to protect it downrange, and provide enough light. Of course I could just buy the lights that Chrony sells, but it seem more fun to turn this into a “project.”


  53. RE: Pellet/gun interaction

    GUYS – How about a 0.177 gun/pellet blog?

    my yahoo ID is “hcacree”

    (1) Measure target size
    (2) Shoot group of about 5
    (3) Shoot JSB Exacts
    (4) Shoot any other pellet of your choice
    (5) Send me scans of the two targets and name/power of rifle/pistol. (FPS would be nice if you have a chrony.)

    You could use same target if separation of groups is enough.

    Note distance is 10 yards. (10 meters about the same for government work like this…) 10 meters might not be the best distance, but I figure most of us indoor shooters can manage that. If the results are interesting we could go longer distances too.

    I’ll try to write a blog about the results.

    The whole point would be to try to get a number of different guns shooting at least some of the same pellets.

    The JSB’s would be “gold” standard. What could be 4 other “silver standards”? Idea to get data on each gun type for at least about 5 different pellets. I’d be willing to put sample packs of pellets together (say 20 of each kind) for 5 types of pellets for those willing to participate. That way everyone isn’t buying $25-$50 of pellets that they wouldn’t normally use.

    If you couldn’t scan targets, contact me via e-mail and I’ll give you my mailing address.

    Make sense?


  54. RE: 5 0.177 pellets ??

    Beeman Laser, 6.5 Grains
    Daisy Precision Max, 7.8 Grains
    Gamo Hunter, 7.56 Grains
    JSB Exacts, 8.4 grains
    JSB Exact Heavy, 10.2 grains

    The Gamo pellets and the Daisy pellets aren’t “great” ones probably in any gun, but they would be available locally.

    The point isn’t to measure group size, but to measure POI shift relative to some “gold” standard. Group size depends on shooter. POI shift shouldn’t.

    Two groups have to be of reasonable size so that shift can be measured with some precision.


  55. Re: Other pellets too

    Of course, folks could report other pellets relative to JSP Exact.

    Idea would be to have a second round of 5 pellets where POI impact shifted the most. Does POI always sift in same direction for each gun?


  56. Kevin,
    Sorry, I’m so late getting back. I was kidding you about this:

    “I’ve learned to ask more questions rather than drive across town to find out it’s a gamo. Last “false alarm” was a pawn shop that called and said it has a wood stock, excellent condition, no scratches, underlever, great metal and looked like it had never been fired. No markings. Drove 30 minutes to find out it was one of these cheap chinese guns that sell for $15.00 each or $100.00 for an entire crate of them.”

    So, after driving all that way, did you buy it or throw it through the guy’s front window?

  57. Herb,

    I have the same florescent light problem in the basement. Set a 500W halogen worklight next to the chrony.
    It’s got relativity written all over it.
    Works like a champ.

  58. Derrick38,
    Thanks for that comment about the Halogen lights. That’s what I’ve been wanting to hear. I do have one of those in my garage. Now, I can start emptying my PA wishlist. If anyone has other suggestions I’d be glad to hear them.

  59. Derrick,

    Curious, one light I assume?

    How far above chrony?

    I think too much at times, but the light would be a “point source” and the two sensors would form a triangle. It would seem to cause a small error in velocity. Making pellet seem slightly faster than it is. Ideally the pellet speed would be measured as it crosses the vertical planes containing the sensors.


  60. One light my child, to light your path…

    Uh, sorry…I mean yeah, one light. It sits next to the chrony on the work bench. About the same height. I just aim it up toward the sky screens. Well, “ceiling screens” in this case, you know?

    If you really want to over think this, wouldn’t the pellet be traveling slower if the light was behind the target, pointed toward the muzzle?

  61. Re: wouldn’t the pellet be traveling slower if the light was behind the target, pointed toward the muzzle?

    Nope. Three points determine a triangle. The two sensors and the light. If the light “beams” are perpendicular to sensors that is “right” distance. (ie light is infinite distance away.)

    Suppose you had one light four feet above the center of the chrony, and the sensors are one foot part. Now you shoot one foot over the chrony. Now distance between “planes” for sensors is only 3/4 of a foot so the chrony shows 133% of actual speed.


  62. chuck,maybe the difference is in acceleration in the barrel[between compressed air and Co2].they deffinitely act differently.air pressure descends along the swept volume of the barrel,whereas Co2 continues to expand along the length of the barrel if enough passes the valve.this is just a theory…trying to account for the different result.something to consider or dismiss….a tighter fit or a heavier pellet might simulate a longer barrel effect.A chrony would shed some real light on this paradox.no pun intended!FrankB

  63. Frank B,
    I added the published fps for each gun to fuel your theory. I don’t see a correlation unless my guns are really screwed up. They are all less than 6 mos old. The smallest deviation (Walther CO2 to 953 pump)is 73fps. That would have to me major damage to make that much of a difference wouldn’t it? I just ordered a chrony so I’ll try this again when I get it – if I don’t have lighting problems.

    Single pump 953 (560fps) – Supermags 1″ high and right of JSB

    CO2 Pistol (400fps) – Supermag and JSB same level

    Springer 61 (490fps)- Supermag 1″ high and LEFT of JSB

    CO2 rifle (633fps)- Supermag and JSB same level


  64. Herb,
    Re:guest blog
    If you’re serious I’ll contribute some target results. If I get my chrony next week I’ll try to work in some shots the following week. If not, it’ll be March before I can get to it.

  65. Chrony thought:
    My premise assumes it’s the pellet’s shadow that the chrony detects as it flies over the sensor.

    Seems to me if you use axillary lighting you just have to make sure the pellet and it’s shadow are over the sensor at the same time. Right?

    If I bounce the halogen light (mine is a double light on one stand) off a white paneled ceiling like Derrick is, the light should overpower the fluorescent ones and diffuse enough so that the shadow of, say, a pencil, is even with the pencil and the sensor at the same time. Then I should be ok.

    I’d have this same positioning problem if I used two light sources. Depending on where I put them I could make the pellet seem faster or slower. That must be why chrony sells lights that clip directly to the sky(aka, ceiling)screens.


  66. Re: Bouncing light

    I got a dual (150 watt each) worklight and tried bouncing light off my 8 foot white ceilings. Can’t get enough light for Chrony to work with NO fluorescent lights around.

    Time to repaint the ceilings?


  67. Herb,
    How about a 500 watt halogen work light from harbor freight… they are cheap and last a long time… or so far for me… and a white ceiling is a good thing too!


  68. Hello all you chrony junkies,

    Why not buy two 40 watt frosted bulbs, 2 sockets, some electrical cord, a plug and make your own? Not that hard. Lot of diy plans on chrony lights.

    My dual halogen worklight on a stand, shining up at a white ceiling, does just fine when I’m shooting in the garage. Don’t feel like hauling the worklight indoors when shooting so I spent, $13.00 I think, to make my own chrony lights. Frosted bulbs are the key. Mistakenly bought 40 watt clear bulbs originally and had to take them back and exchange them in order for the chrony to give me consisitent readings. I learned that strong sunlight and/or strong incandescent light can throw off chrony readings.


  69. chuck,these are just potential factors to rule in or out in making sense of the collected data.other variables that figure in are human error{easy to i.d.,data won’t repeat]ergonomics i.e,different heights of barrels from grip,different barrel length as pertains to leverage against muzzle flip,different trigger positions and break dynamics,different grip eccentrics,etc…each may taint the paralells of powerplant comparison.don’t underestimate the fact that two of the same airguns may like different pellets.so many variables……makes my head hurt!FrankB

  70. Wayne,

    Sure looks like an Improved Model D. Blue book has a picture of what looks like the bayonet version. I would guess that the one you bought is the “end button style”. Since the blue book says that there were “five size variations plus the military models” you bought one of the larger ones. Blue book only lists lengths on 3 of the many different models. I think you now own one of the longer models but it definately looks like an Improved model D.

    Rare gun. Good find.


  71. After re-reading your velocity post,I see two vital pieces of info we need!we don’t know actual shot velocity with each gun with each pellet.not only that,to do this right we need actual weight of ,and nose/skirt dimentions of,EACH pellet that gets fired.ponder that and I think you can imagine why this is vital…keep experimenting,good work so far! FrankB

  72. derrick 38,

    I’m slow forgive me. Rode the short school bus. Made me wear a football helmet but never played on any team.

    No, I didn’t buy that wonderful speciman of an airgun. Told the guy what it was worth ( I think he was disappointed too), thanked him and left.


  73. Lots of topics,

    Pellets – different ones hit in different spots, some things we are not meant to understand. Depending on the distance you’re shooting at a heavy pellet will often print high. (More bowed trajectory)

    Chrony lights – I use a swing arm attached to my bench with a spotlight type grow bulb. I keep the outdoor covers on, works fabulous. I use a Beeman silent trap to shoot into and a scale safely behind it to check chronied pellet weights.

    Herb – what conclusion are you looking for rifle pellet compatibility?

    Wayne – You need to post some items before you buy them. Share.

  74. Kevin,it all comes out in the wash…Who knows,next time you may drive 45 min. and pay someones foxy widow 50$ for a Whiscombe,or a Girandoni,stranger things have happened with Karma at the wheel!! FrankB

  75. Volvo,

    Here’s a “heads up”/ sharing for you before Wayne buys it.

    Rick Peterson has his favorite Rapid for sale on the yellow. An MKII in .25 caliber. Monster.


  76. My first time being disappointed in Crosman,
    I just broke my pro 77 (my first co2 gun which had lasted a generous 20,000 rnds), something was slipping in the trigger mechanism and not letting the hammer fall. Well, I went to wal mart and picked up another for $73.97. I noticed the slide has been changed to a mat black finish, I liked the shininess of the original. The screw on top of the slide now has a washer and had blue lock tight on it:) The gun was a little less smooth and lacked all oil:( AND WORST OF ALL, they got rid of the little holographic card which showed the slide racking back:( Anyhow I oiled it up and will shoot it tomorrow.
    Shadow express dude

  77. Dear FrankB,
    I just bought a chrony plus printer. After reading your last post I bought an accurate scale and a professional digital caliper and a device to hold the gun in a consistent manner. Now, I can’t afford the pellets.

  78. Re: what conclusion are you looking for rifle pellet compatibility?


    Search me…

    Chuck noticed that the POI for different pellets moved around as I have. Guess first thing was curious if any pellets moved same way for different guns. I'd think that multi-pumps, CO2, and PCP would behave somewhat similarly. Springers would probably act very differently since as BB noted that the barrels lift. For springers POI would be highly dependent on technique.

    I do know that if I use less pumps on my multi-pumps then POIs move too for same type of pellet. Not just up/down either. But I haven't actually plotted POI vs pumps for different types.

    There are so many variables to consider that I'm sure that any such simple multi-user simple experiments would not produce the ultimate answers. I guess I was just wondering if there were any simple correlations between guns.

    If you center JSB's on target moving up and down a vertical line in target seems "normal" depending on weight of pellet, FPS and so on. I can see pellets moving along line other than vertical if centerline of scope is not directly above the centerline of barrel. But my recollection was that I've seen pellets move in all directions.

    As I stated before group size would be highly dependent on shooter. Don't see any reason why POI shifts would be for PCPs/Multipumps/CO2. If shooter is shooting "patterns" instead of "groups" then POI shifts between different types of pellets wouldn't be measurable of course.

    I've shot some balls and missed my whole target because the balls yielded a pattern not a group. Whoops!

    I was also curious about what pellets might move most. There are just too many different types of pellets for anybody (but BB!) to have them all. I don't current have any of the real light pellets. I know that I can buy 0.177 PBAs locally. I'll try some of those just to see what happens with them. Obviously very light to very heavy would seem to offer at least some limits on spread.

    Heaviest PA sells in 0.177 is:
    Beeman Silver Arrow, 11.50 Grains

    Beretta , 4.5 Grains, leadfree

    Would everything else fall in between? Along a line? In an ellipse?

    Is there some set of pellets which would provide a boundary on how much pellets would move. (High/low & left/right).

    I shot some of the 0.177s that I have today quickly for yucks. They don't move as much as the 0.22s do it seems.

    I do have three 0.177 rifles. Daisy 880, Crosman G1, and Crosman 760. I got 760 because it has a smooth bore. I see linear scratches, but no spiral for rifling in mine in spite of what PA lists.


  79. CJr,

    After this weekends spending spree, I know the feeling!!

    It would take me 15 mins to add them all up.. too late.. and I need to practice FT sitting, to stay in shape… I've got to get the yellow off my most visited.. how do I do that?

    Volvo & Kevin,

    Not to worry.. about the .22 cal PCPs.. I just sold all ours.. in favor of FT rifles.. and more old pistols and rifles.. I still say my Air Arms s410 on full power with a Kokiak 10.6 or Eunjin 16 gr is all the air gun hunting I need.. from there I step to .22 cal rim fire shorts in the SW929 pistol or my great old rem semi auto rifle… lots of room here.. so I can take a giant step.. like .22 cal is giant..:) 30/30 IS a giant step for my shoulder..:) but not around the house… unless…

    That "BSA improved D" could be a great one.. but what to do about the patched up stock where they had a peep sight?.. The open rear sight is broken too.. Maybe try to find another period rear peep sight?… and scoop out the patch work?

    I was just talking with a long time trader, who said that prices are really low now, because of the economy.. and some people have just pulled their stuff, instead of lowering it any more…

    nice time to shop…

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  80. Herb,

    The Eunjin 16gr are the heavy guys in .177 cal. as far as I know..

    They are not that accurate over 900fps.. compared with the kodiak 10.6 or the JSB 10.2 But that 900fps speed is important with those two also!!

    Ya see folks, adjustable power lets you find the speed a pellet likes… if there is one!! now all together.. which rifle has adjustable power and is quite as a mouse, and accurate as a FX WHISPER???
    I can’t remember.. I’m getting old…

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  81. Wayne,

    I think the answer to your question is the FX Cyclone. : ) How many extra air tubes do you have for the AA?

    Anyway, I saw some photos about a week ago from I guy that does stock repair on the yellow that was amazing. He took an M-1 carbine that looked like its only use would be a boat oar and brought it back to new. Huge gouges, dents, etc all gone. Wish I would of book marked the link.

    I bet if you just post the question you’ll get some good leads.

  82. I’m glad you folks started to talk about getting your chronys to work indoors. The problem with the florescent lights are that they flicker – 60 times per second. The human eye doesn’t see it until the bulbs get old and weak. The incandescent bulbs don’t flickers because you’re heating a filament and the filament continues to glow white hot when the voltage changes polarity – 60 times per second – so the electric eyes of the chrony aren’t bothered by that. But the halogen is a good idea. I’ll try that tomorrow.

    I did get my chrony to work for me today by placing it close to a window inside my house. There was enough light to show me that my one bargain rifle was not such a great bargain. I bought a RWS 350 at a super sports store that someone had returned. Every screw on it was loose so I imagine the original owner got frustrated that he couldn’t put a group together and returned it. After tightening them all up, including the scope, I was getting very accurate results. Today I put it through the Chrony and found it’s shooting about 2/3’s what it should be doing. A 14.3gr pellet traveled an average of 643 fps for a 13 ft. lb energy reading at the muzzle. Now I know that whoever returned that rifle must have dry fired it a number of times.

    Time to build a Gaylord spring compressor and check out the piston seal, I guess. I’ll keep the blog appraised on what I find.

  83. Herb,

    Ok, think I kind of get it. Over the past three decades I’ve had a least a couple dozen pellet rifles and probably three times that in pellets. And since I don’t get out as much as I like I do a great deal of 10 meter shooting in my basement. I kept a log of all the rifles, likes, dislikes, sample targets, etc. Now the bad news, part of my house cleaning last year involved disposing of most of that historical data. I did come to quit a few conclusions.
    The good news is a hefty part of the enjoyment was gathering all that data, so I’ll let you guys have fun!

  84. Just for fun, what do you guys think of the .14 caliber question? I vote no. I never drank the kool-aid when it came to the .20, played with a couple .25’s, and have to ask what would be the purpose of a .14?

  85. RE: Fluorescent light flicker


    AC power is 60 hertz, but current goes both ways in one cycle. So the fluorescent lights flicker at 120 hertz.

    You can also see 120 cycle hum on an incandescent light too. Much, much less of course but it is there.

    I had rigged a silicon cell to look at flicker with an oscilloscope. Trying to see if I could measure phosphorescence decay time in some phosphorescent minerals.


  86. RE: 0.14 caliber

    The only reason that I could see would be to shoot 0.14 caliber BULLETS (not diablo pellets) supersonic. For field target that might be nice since you could get a flatter trajectory at varying distances. Of course the gun maker would have to put the design effort into proving that it would really work.

    With current batch of PCPs you can already get 0.177 into range of the speed of sound.

    Also think that 0.14 shooting bullets would cause consternation. The bullets would likely go quite a distance. It would seem to me just the think to attract more regulations.


  87. I was hoping Herb would tell me that the light’s mass was slowing down the pellet. At least I’d have an original excuse for missing.

    Herb, I forgot to mention that I actually point the halogen light upward and into the ceiling screens. It seems to work fine. I can’t say I’ve seen any crazy fast numbers. –At least the velocities are consistent from indoors to outdoors so I don’t think there’s a problem.

    Interesting…As always, I appreciate your insight.



  88. Derrick,

    I know the .20 cal has some fans, but I just was never sold on it. Don’t think the BC is really any better. Plus that would of meant more rifles and pellets and I barely had places for the .177, .22 and .25. I actually threw the towel in on the .25 last year and sold off all the pellets and both rifles.

    .14 sounds like it would be really hard to handle, as I sometimes fumble with the .177’s. Since pellet type plays such a huge issue on accuracy that would be another concern. I’m sure manufacturers would be limited. I don’t feel it would raise any eyebrows as far as regulations – my long-standing concern instead is when you see 9mm or .45 cal, which have such strong ties to firearms.

    That said, I’m sure Gamo would sell rifles advertised at 1800 + fps and some folks would line up. (Reality is they’ll actual shoot a 2 gn pellet at 1650 fps for 12 ft lbs)

  89. Wayne,

    Congratulations on the Improved Model D.

    Time for you and Vince to call this man:

    To see if he has any more of John Knibbs’ books: BSA and Lincoln Jeffries Air Rifles. John Groenewold is good friends with Knibbs, which is where you can get parts for this gun (from Knibbs in England).

    It will be a great shooter.


  90. Herb,

    remember a cycle is a complete return to start – as the voltage change is displayed as a sine wave as your “O” scope. You’re right when you say there are 120 changes when you count the plus voltage peak and minus voltage peak but in my EE classes, that was a complete cycle. Dr. Wantaugh would have failed you if you called it 120 hertz and the industry refers to it as 60 cycle hum (that low tone you can hear from transformers in electric appliances whose windings or iron core are no longer held tightly together). Enough on EE 101. I do remember a chem lab experiment to measure the length of a molecule using benzene. I believe the other solvent might have been alcohol which, being a polar solvent, would stand on end. It’s been a long time so that might not be right but what I do remember is Bill Trotto setting his experiment on fire and the 6 foot flame coming from his lab desk. I grabbed the CO2 extinguisher for that one! Great fun and as far as I know, no one got sick or died from the exposure to benzene!!!!!!

    No one called Trotto any names either as he played nose guard.

    .14 cal – the question is “why”? What benefits would one get versus the difficulties? If our pellets are very vulnerable to wind now, imagine how these lighter, smaller pellets would fare. Seems like the answer to a question no one has asked.

    Well, it’s wood-working day today – the great Gaylord spring compressor project commences.

  91. B.B.


    And thanks for the link to John… I think Vince and I both need to visit his sight.. and give call him.. I had already bookmarked it, but not explored it yet.. You just got me looking again, thanks! I better get that book too!

    B.B., I hope you know how powerful your blogs are… I had no intention of getting into pistols… or collecting at all.. I was just looking for something for the guys to shoot the rats around the lumber piles with…

    Now I can’t stop wanting to buy the newest and the oldest at the sane time!!!

    The air guns have also been a great bonding for the production and office folks.. a shootin team is building a tighter business team!! Mucho thanks man.. (that’s my main excuse now, how does that sound to you?)…

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  92. Hello B.B. and everyone else:
    Yesterday, I was shooting in a friendly competition with my brother at the range… And some questions popped up:
    1) With my Talon SS, I was shooting 100, 50, and 20 feet… But I was wondering if there is a formula with which I can precisely adjust the clicks (windage & elevation) of my AirFOrce 4-16×50 scope easily… Oh, and it was at maximum power all the time with .22 Kodiaks Heavy (21.10grains)… I must tell that at 100feet I was shooting like a US Marines Sniper… but at 20feet I lost some "points" because it took me like four shots before hitting dead center…. Anyways, I nailed my brother, who was using my Gamo Whisper which is no match for my Talon SS… 😉

    2) What happens if you mix CO2 and Air pressured at 2000psi or above??? Ignoring the valve issue… Would it shoot w/more power, longer, etc etc?? My brother asked me but I couldn't come up with something intelligent.. LOL.. THANKS

  93. By the way… I think that manufacturing .14 caliber air rifles/ammo/pellets is a waste of time… Specially with a high power rifle… High Speed + Extremely Low Weight Pellet= Bad Accuracy= Waste of Money… On the other side… It could be a great way of introducing children into the Airgun World… A low weight pellet ensures a “safer” experience IF a shot hits SOMEONE… LOL… Less impact energy…


  94. You don’t have to ask me..

    .14 is a very bad idea…. no accuracy seems possible to me..

    900fps should be the top end goal with any weight pellet.. and a .14 would be hard to keep that slow in anything but very small guns.. and it would still be too dangerous as a toy.. I don’t know, it seems like a marketing ploy…

    Who needs another line of guns, other than the manufactures just looking for something to make and sell.. who cares if it’s of no good use! OH, Well they will be collectors someday…

    BTW, thanks Kevin

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  95. Fred,

    Stand by my answer. 120hz for light, not current.

    The light doesn’t have a + or – phase. Square wave rectify the AC and pulse a LED. How any times per second does the LED go ON and OFF? 120, not 60.


  96. Fred,
    Make sure you do a guest blog on making the spring compressor. My three little sharpshooters have dry fired their IZH-61s so many times in their excitement that there surely has to be some damage. I need to take one of them apart to learn how to repair them. Sounds like the spring is a good way to hurt myself.

    AND, if anyone else has taken a 61 apart, how about a blog from you?!

  97. B.B.
    Oh well… That’s what I thought, but I was just in denial… Was looking for an easier method… LOL… Thanks, that’ll will be my next task with the SS…


  98. Since Tom brought up and provided contact information for John Groenewold, I would like to add the following. I didn’t know how many of you were aware, but John has available on his site a book of exploded drawings of airguns that he has compiled. I have a copy and it includes about 350 or so drawings and parts lists (including part numbers.)
    This message is primarily a heads up to guys like Derrick and Vince who I know from this blog do a lot of mechanical work/mods to their guns.
    Many of you may find these drawings fascinating. I know I do.
    I may also be just late to the party and every one here is already aware of this book, although I don’t recall it ever being brought up on the blog before. Jon F.

  99. Jony,

    You probably know this but..there’s a lot of great suggestions on the ft forum about easy ways to range then create the marks on your scope for shooting at different distances. I especially liked the suggestion of tying a rope to his kids red wagon and pulling it towards him for the one yard increments. Never have to get up for range. Brilliant.


  100. Does anyone know if the silencer on the ppks kit it real? Just wondering.
    ALSO, has anyone had any problems with the pro77? I really like the way it looks and I’ve heard some good things about it. Can anyone recommend the best BB blow back pistol?

  101. Blow back pistol person,
    I just replaced my 1st pro77, something was slipping in the trigger mechanism. The newer version has a mat black slide and is much more accurate, also the problem of having the slide screw getting loose was fixed by crosman installing a washer. I liked it enough to buy a second, but if you can get a pellet pistol, try the Beretta PX4 storm.
    Shadow express dude

  102. Herb,

    after further thought, I have to agree with you. That florescent light will blink 120 times per second as the voltage goes from it’s peak, down through zero to it’s negative peak and back up to zero on it’s way to it’s positive peak again. However, a hertz, which is electronic speak for cycles per second, sees this as one complete cycle or hertz. I see one or two others have filled in the other area in getting to LED’s so I’d say we should both get partial credit for this “trick question”.

    A blog on building that spring compressor? I’ll take photos and prepare a narrative and if it passes BB’s critique, maybe it will get published. Perhaps it would be better to also include my disassembly of the RWS 350. I’m off to drill more holes and then hacksaw a “C” clamp (which I saw on the internet somewhere else used instead of that rascal Gaylord’s vice). BB, I don’t know why you put up with that fella ;).

  103. RE: Gamo PBA pellets

    Couldn't wait for PA, and US Mail so I went to WalMart for some.

    Couldn't help but notice "18 Karat gold plating" for the pellets. A little gold plate would go a long way. Don't know what alloy they use, but it must tarnish into something ugly for them to gold plate the pellets for eye candy.

    RE: Mixing air & CO2

    The air would not dissolve in CO2 to any extent. Thus the liquid CO2 would effectively reduce the volume of the chamber for pressurized air. Instead of starting off at "0" lbs/sq inch you'd start off with pressure of CO2 gas. The air you add would mix with CO2 gas. Extra pressure for a couple of shots, then you'd be back down to CO2 pressure as liquid CO2 converts to gaseous CO2 and "blows" all the air out.


  104. RE: Gamo PBA pellets


    Anybody notice that the stinking things are magnetic? Trying to load them in a Daisy 880 which also shoots BBs. Has a magnetic tip to hold BB. Seem to be jamming pellets into breech. I'll have to find something with which to seat them. See if pattern improves to a group.


  105. Did a little more shooting with my new Crosman 1077 Combo (comes with Centerpoint 4×32 scope) today.Its still too cold for the best consistancy for both CO2 gun and shooter. I've been trying different pellts.Today I tried the .177 Crosman Premier wadcutters,the RWS Hobby wadcutters,some Gamo Hunter round noses, and some Beeman Silver Bears.Of these, the Gamo Hunters were the biggest groups. Shooting was at 39feet/13 yards from a little bench rest setup.The Silver Bears show promise, as do the Gamo Match pellets.The Crosman Premiers show really good promise.I have a group with 4 shots in maybe a quarter of an inch, and one flyer (!@#$%^&*) out a bit from that.I didn't try the Silver Bears today, but list them here as they grouped well a week ago when I tried them (in even colder temps).I was dissapointed with my group with the RWS Hobbys.I will try them again to give them a fair shake.I have a couple of other Gamo pellets I haven't tried yet that came in a sample pack I got from PA (all this I got from them!!).
    So far, the Crosman Premier wadcutters look very promising, with the Gamo Match and Beeman Silver Bears both next.I used my new Gamo targets today, and set the crosshairs at the center of the bull.These nice targets have writing on them that you use as a cross to set the crosshairs on, and they are very nice targets.Most of my life I have used a six o'clock hold with either open sights or scopes, feeling that it's more precise than a center hold on the bull.But these targets make a center hold very practical for me.
    I bought this gun in view of what B.B Pelletier wrote about his three 1077s, and the accuracy he is getting.I'd like a more powerful scope, and maybe I could do better.
    The gun functions great as long as I don't partially pull the trigger,run out of breathe (easy to do with this trigger!), and then continue the squeeze.If I do this, it may skip a pellet,or not fire that shot.If I run out of breathe, I just remember to hold some trigger pressure, breathe in, and continue the squeeze.But I think the trigger is getting a little better.
    With a more powerful scope and warmer weather (partly for this old shooter,so I don't hurry my shots) I can see if I do my job well,I might get some good groups with this little repeater.Its a fun gun to shoot, and I like the synthetic stock.It feels good, and seems like it might survive some really abusive use.
    For now, I'll stick with the scope that came with it.For the price, a very good gun/scope combo.


  106. Kevin,just got your post,FrankB and anonymous are both me…I totally get you.glad you smiled and loved the buisness card idea!sort of an airgun trotline…I spent the morning at a flea mkt.nothing good to report,two airguns,abused plastic crosman pumper and worst cheap spring pistol on earth!!!my airguns would beat them up if left alone with them.I’d rather throw pellets!LOL-FrankB

  107. Volvo (and anybody else),
    Ice storm didn’t get me, but it did a number on utilities and trees. Our power went out Tu. afternoon and came back after noon today (so far so good), and I think we’re lucky it came back so quick, although we were having a good time living the old-fashioned way. It wasn’t bitterly cold, thankfully (couple of nights in the teens), but it was cold enough that the ice didn’t really start melting until yesterday afternoon and tree parts continued to fall sporadically. Today, of course, its over 50 and everything is a nice muddy mess:)…lots of cleanup left. Tuesday night was the only really worrisome time for me, as trees were splitting and cracking so frequently that it sounded like a small war was going on.

    Just catching up on the blog tonight. Missed you all.

    Benzene: if you’re going to drink, drink responsibly.

  108. Matt61,

    You need to move to Colorado. No ice storms. Our guest quarters are vacant. Private entrance, your own garage, fully furnished, private entrance to hot tub and badu pool. Will trade rent for guns.


  109. Kevin,

    That won’t take long to rent that one!!


    I’m just starting into the Field Target or FT game.. we are still setting up our course and collecting and learning to shoot the rifles we buy.. so I’m not the one to ask.. but Kevin is right about where…

    On three of the rifles, I’m just using the leapers 8-32×56 AO with the side wheel focus.. I got both the 80mm and 100m side wheels depending on the room.. They have numbers on them, and I just line up so the number in in my face when the scope is focused on that marker.. with that scope I can shoot 10 yards on either side of perfect focus.. without touching the side wheel.. and just a little movement takes it from 15 to 55 yards..

    Heck I don’t know anything about it… tell me what you find out..

    If you have time, someday in the far off future.. a blog on Field Target scopes and their setup/use.. would sure make me a happy camper!! or anybody from the FT forum around here too?..

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  110. “Does anyone know if the silencer on the ppks kit it real? “

    It’s not real. It just allows you to feel like James Bond a bit. Personally I wish it had been a true barrel extension as well, to add a bit more fps to the bb.

  111. B.B., (and anyone else up this late)

    After having shot several Airsoft Pistols as well as my steel BB pistols at small plastic and wood targets (plinking) at distances of 15-35 feet in my basement range, I have come to the conclusions that 1.) protective eyewear is definitely necessary with steel BBs, whereas 2.)regular glasses appear to provide enough protection from rebounding airsoft BBs.

    Further, I find that being hit by rebounding steel BBs in the face is very [rare yet] unpleasant, while the Airsoft BBs rebounding off my face are of course easy to shake off.

    Do you see any reason to plink indoors using steel bb guns vs. Airsoft guns? I even wonder if there is any advantage to plinking outdoors with a real bb gun versus using an Airsoft gun {not including the price}, especially since some of these AEG Airsoft guns shoot about as far {within plinking range} about as accurately.

    I know that you have a housefull of all sorts of guns, and I wonder under what circumstances you go for your B.B. bb blowback pistol?

    On a separate note, B.B., last year I bought the Beretta Storm as I was attracted to the idea of a semiauto pellet gun (pellets just sit there and don’t bounce back:)) for plinking, but the gun broke in 2 ways within the first month and I was moderately unenthusiastic about the revolver action in a rifle to boot. So…I just saved the barrel and discarded the rest…I really was disgusted by the gun and did not want another.

    I am thinking about purchasing the other cheap semiauto pellet gun, made by Crossman, the Nightstalker, and, assuming it works, how much more pleased might I be with its action, which I understand is more of a blowback and less of a revolver action. Do you know if the trigger can be reduced by a few pounds, and if so can you recommend somebody who might help with this?

    Thank you.

    – Dr. G.

  112. Anonymous,

    Tech Force rifles are very bad, but their scopes are just bad. I have owned one of each.

    There are lots of better brands to buy. Almost everyone knows this…now you do too!

    – Dr. G.

  113. Cjr – anonymous beat me to the url for BB's blog on building a spring compressor. The answer to your question is "yes" but with some minor revisions. I used two 1×10's for the base, 2×4's for the sides of the bridge and the muzzle restraining end piece and an 8" C clamp with the 90 deg bend at the top cut off and three holes drilled through the remainder of the mild steel to bolt to the bottom plates.

    Had it not been for my 25 yr old B & D drill packing it in, new battery packs needed for my battery powered drill, my wife hitting the curb with our new car and destroying a $200 plus tire (which had to be changed before dark) and my mother-in-law falling while at the Super bowl and injuring herself seriously (all family members down there left to go to the hospital with her and didn't see the game which was her idea to go by working selling programs and tried to induce me to come), I might have finished up. But bad things come in threes so I hope that's it.

  114. Tech Force,

    The most accurate Tech Force rifle is the TF 89 breakbarrel. It requires all the special handling of a breakbarrel, but if you learn how to do that, it is a good gun for medium-distance shooting. It is certainly as good as the RWS Diana 34 Panther.


  115. Dr. G.,

    Do I ever plink indoor with a steel BB gun? Never! I value my eyes too much to do that.

    I also shoot only at a Crosman 850 BB trap, which I openly recommend to anyone who shoots BB guns.

    I do shoot the Daisy 499 indoors, but that isn’t plinking.


  116. B.B.,

    When you plink outdoors with a BB gun do you always wear eye protection?

    Is it extremely rare for you to be hit in the face by a rebounding BB outdoors, compared with indoors?
    It sounds like that is what you are implying.

    Thanx again.

    – Dr. G.

  117. Dr. G.,

    Because of what I do I never shoot anything indoors or out without eye protection. I would say I have been hit by rebounds indoors more often than outdoors. But BB gun, pellet gun or firearm, I always wear safety glasses.

    It is rare to be hit in the face, but I have been hit there several times. Once, a rebound from a hot Anics pistol split my lip from 10 meters back. And I’ve had countless red marks on the cheeks.


  118. As I recall, the best BB trap was always something like a piece of heavy cloth, carpet, or something similar hung from a line or a horizontal pole. BB’s hit it, lose all energy, and drop straight down.

    I heard that’s how Edith caught HER BB! Oh, wait – no, it was just by being herself.

    Anonymous, you’ve got to be careful with Tech Force stuff. Like BB says the TF89/AR1000 can be a good shooter, although I personally have a hard time shooting them as well as my ’34 variants.

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