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Education / Training Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 2

Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

There were almost 100 comments to the first part of this report within the first week. Not bad for a report done on a Tuesday. When there are that many comments, I know I’ve struck a chord.

Today, in the velocity report, I’ll show you a few more things about this amazing BB gun. I’ve owned the model in this report for about seven years, but I had never chronographed it before. So, there was a big surprise waiting for me that I’ll share with you in a moment.

First, let’s talk about how this gun cocks. Because the cocking puts wear on the finish of the barrel, many guns you might be tempted to call excellent are really not higher than very good. To cock the gun, you pull or push the barrel straight back into the receiver. I mentioned in Part 1 that the cocking exposes the shooter to the muzzle, so care must be taken to ensure safety. And this is a very powerful BB gun, so it isn’t easy even for an adult to cock. It’s definitely not for kids.

I mention the cocking because of some talk we had regarding the condition of these guns. The M1 Carbine is a gun that degrades fast because of how it’s cocked. Not only does it get the scratches, but the acid from your hands removes the bluing from the forward part of the barrel when grabbing it for cocking.

The barrel is forward.

The barrel is cocked. You pull it forward before taking the shot.

The most common wear on an M1 Carbine happens where the barrel scrapes against the stock during cocking. Most guns have these lines and they reduce the condition from excellent to very good. A Carbine that doesn’t have them is rare.

Years ago, when I first saw this gun, I assumed it had to be a CO2 gun because it wasn’t obvious how it worked. So, I passed up the first one at $15. It was another decade before I discovered the error of my assumption.

Loading and oiling
The M1 Carbine is a 22-shot repeater. The box that looks like a magazine is just a BB reservoir–the actual BBs you are about to shoot go in a hole on top of the upper handguard. A short pull of the operating handle opens the BB loading hole and the oil hole located to the rear of it. The BBs are fed by gravity one at a time into the shot seat for firing when the barrel is pulled back. You naturally elevate the barrel to cock the gun, so the BBs always feed smoothly.

Looking down at the top of the gun, the larger hole at the right is were the BBs are loaded. The smaller hole in the center is for oil. However, the cocking handle is forward and both holes are closed.

The cocking handle has been pulled back, opening both holes. This cocking handle has nothing to do with cocking this gun, but it mimics the operating handle on the M1 Carbine firearm.

The fake magazine is actually a BB reservoir. Once out of the gun, the plastic cover slides back and BBs can be dumped out.

The firing mechanism in this gun is quite different from a traditional BB gun mechanism. It uses a poppet valve that accumulates air pressure and then suddenly pops open to force air behind the BB. It works effectively enough that the Crosman V350 got its name from the expected velocity. And, until I fired this M1, that was the highest velocity I’d seen from these guns. But this one is hotter!

I oiled the mechanism with several drops of Crosman Pellgunoil, then shot the gun to work in the oil. Once the velocity settled down, I recorded the velocities of three different brands of BBs.

Daisy Premium Grade BBs
Daisy Premium Grade BBs were fastest, averaging 388 f.p.s. The spread was from 378 f.p.s. to 394 f.p.s. That’s faster than any steel BB long gun I’ve ever tested. A couple CO2 pistols were faster, but for a regular spring-powered mechanism, that’s haulin’.

Crosman Copperheads
Crosman Copperheads were slower and had a greater spread. Since they weigh the same, that means they don’t fit the bore of this gun as well as the Daisys. They averaged 374 f.p.s., with a spread from 355 f.p.s. to 378 f.p.s. But they’re still faster than any steel BB gun tested to date.

Avanti Precision Ground Shot
As they have in many other BB gun tests, Daisy’s Avanti Precision Ground Shot turned in the most consistent velocity. It wasn’t quite the fastest, at an average of 385 f.p.s., but the spread was only from 382 f.p.s. to 391 f.p.s. That bodes well for the accuracy test.

The barrel of this gun moves several degrees when it’s twisted. Since the front sight is attached to the barrel, that’s a potential cause for inaccuracy. I’ll adopt a procedure of rotating the barrel in the same direction until it stops before every shot to cancel this effect.

This is getting interesting. I can’t wait to see how this baby shoots!

82 thoughts on “Crosman M1 Carbine – Part 2”

  1. Morning B.B.

    Your gun is screaming, but as they say, the only interesting gun is an acurate one. Do you by any chance have a picture of that poppet valve that you could maybe fit into Part 3? Thank you Mr B.

  2. B.B./Others Who Know,

    Using the best pellets available for each airgun, is there any tendency for the RWS 850 to be more accurate [indoors] using .177 vs. .22?

    Anybody own both or have read of others’ accuracy experiences as a function of caliber?


    – Dr. G.

  3. B.B.,

    I loaned out my Beeman Model 17 and it’s been returned with a problem, in that it only makes a tiny pfft sound when I cock it and pull the trigger. It seems like it might be over pressurized, because it’s hard to cock, and is maybe suffering from valve lock. What are the steps I should follow? Thank you much Mr B.

  4. These are the kinds of guns I wish you would write more about…fun guns lots of us grew up with. Thanks!

    PS – I always enjoyed the replica BB guns, from the Crosman M1 to the Daisy Model 94 (NOT the Red Ryder!)

  5. Ian,

    See, you better keep those new in box ones!!!

    But…. let me know when you want to sell them, so you can buy a video game!!:)

    Sleigh bells ring, are you listening?

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  6. It’s only a matter of time until Wayne gets one of those M1s from Ian!

    Ian, maybe you should sell one of them to Wayne and just keep the best one for yourself. I’m sure Wayne will give you a fair price and I think he deserves one. You could also make him promise that if he ever sells it to give you first dibbs. I would definitely hang on to at least one though. You may never have a chance to get another one like it again. My fist car was a 1971 Mercedes 250C. I bought it myself when I was 16 in 1994. It had the real European bumpers and headlight covers and some other custom work done. The car wasn’t in the most pristine condition, but it was pretty good. I eventually sold it because it was pretty expensive for a kid of my age working part time and going to school to maintain a German car from 1971. I would give just about anything to have that car back now. My point is, when you get your hands on something really unique, keep it at all costs or you’ll probably regret it later…..But you don’t need two, that’s just selfish:)

  7. Ian,

    I have been rethinking my recommendation for your first air rifle. Instead of an RWS 34, I think you might be better off with an IZH 61. For half the price of a 34, you will get a rifle that is at least as accurate. Wealth is space as the saying goes, and the odds are that you may not have a lot of space to work with (I don’t), so the power and noise of a 34 could be a liability. With the money saved, you can get a nice Leapers Bug Buster scope, and you can pay for the extra ammo that you can shoot with the repeater mechanism on the 61. I cannot think of another spring gun repeater except for the Mendoza 2000 whose mechanism, based on the comments, seems to be inferior. The difference between a 5-shot, fast-cocking sidelever and a breakbarrel adds up fast, and you will get much more shooting and speed up your development more with the repeater. I spend something like $150 every three months for ammo. So, I cast my prejudices aside and try to be totally objective, and you see where I end up.

    On the subject of the production innovations that make the M1 carbine so interesting, the story behind the M1 Garand makes for interesting reading as well. According to my biography of the American rifle book, while the rifle design was in a more or less finished form by the outbreak of war, the production facilities and know-how were almost non-existent. Not only were they trying to figure out how to do things and how long they would take with precise tasks that did not allow for error, but they had to plan for the time to learn what they didn’t even know about i.e. 200 hours of research for a given problem. What a concept. Apparently it all worked, but I suspect this is where a lot of defense contracts go astray….


  8. Aloha,

    Great reviews over the past 2 weeks B.B. I start my mornings with a cup of coffee & your blog.

    Here's another reminder on the Korean PCP's & the use of the power wheel. Also when are you going to finish the Career Infinity review? How's the TV show coming along & have you received a Maurader for testing yet? Can you also explain how Crosman will accomplish getting 25 – 30, 1000 fps shots(in .22) on a 2000 psi fill & more shots @ the same velocity on a 3500 psi fill without a regulator & getting valve lock @ the higher pressure?


  9. Mr. B
    In regards to the Beeman P17, I dont beleive it to be valve lock.

    I own one myself, and needed to do some work to it after about a 150 shots or so.

    I beleive the valve only stores air while the piston is closed. Meaning if you try to pump it a second time, you will just loose the air from the first pump.

    On mine, I had the “pssft” sound, when I pumped. This turned out to be two problems.

    Problem #1 was a bad piston seal. This was caused by a bur inside the pump tube that was putting a nick in the seal every time it was pumped. The fix was to debur the inside of the tube, and replace the piston seal or try turning it inside out. I got by with turning the seal.

    Problem 2 was a little more complicated. Here is the link to the Beeman P17 page –


    To find my comment about the second problem look at the posts dated around February 2008.

    As a side note, The 2nd problem happened first for my gun.

    I hope this helps.

    JoeG from Jersey

  10. Scott,

    I will finish the Career Infinity on Monday, and there is a small bit of power wheel adjustment in that story.

    I have been looking for an article I wrote a long time ago, so I could quote exact velocities with my Career 707. I haven’t found it yet, so I may have to punt on this report. That means telling the tale without backup.

    I do remember how things went– just not exact numbers.


  11. Mr. B., There are several comments telling how they rebuilt the mechanisms of their Marksman 2004 pistols, which are identical to the P17.

    Look here and read the comments:


    Please let me know if you don’t find what you need.


  12. Hi all,
    I’ve been off the net for a while since (brag, brag) I’m in Bonaire, Netherland Antilles scuba diving. I finally got internet access and now see how far behind I am in articles. Ian I’m interested in an M1 also but I don’t want to deprive anyone else. Vince, earlier I said you were talented. I underestimated. You are a virtuoso. I’ll check back in later. I don’t have unlimited access here. BTW, air temp 85F water temp 79F. Beautiful coral reefs and tons of fish.

  13. BB, back when you reported on the relative accuracy of Daisy, Crosman, and Avanti BB’s you noted that the Avanti’s took the longest to roll down the barrel. I’d think that this would indicate that they tend to be a bit larger in diameter, a trait which might help in something like the PPK. Just a guess on my part, but I do remember some time ago a PPK owner did report improved results with the Avanti shot.

  14. JoeG and B.B.,

    Thanks to both of you for suggestions on the Marksman 2004. Was holding the gun with the slide cocking handle open when the gun went pfft and all is now well. Go figure.

  15. BB & Vince,
    Thanks for the observations on the catapult mechanism yesterday. My take-away is that it helps some in terms of getting the pellet moving and is part of the feeding mechanism, but doesn't provide much power on its own.

    Also, I think trying Avanti BB's is worthwhile. My Daisys (2 RR's and a CO2 pistol) do markedly better with Daisy BB's than Crosman BB's — no value judgement implied, just an observation. I've got a bottle of Avanti's somewhere I think, but haven't tried them yet; most of the time I'm just trying to train the boy, so minute of can is good enough (he can knock over a soda can at 25 feet pretty regularly now).

  16. CowboyStar Dad,

    I got the S&W 79 G today.. very nice.. You can still try it out..


    BTW, thanks for the idea about training at the rifle range.. I like it! now I just need someone who can train folks!!!:) anybody out there?

    I'm also going to try out the idea of different rifles at each shooting lane sometime… could be problems, but I want to see how it works..

    Ian should keep them both.. if he can!!:)… but if he can't… call me… don't be afraid you can just call me.. I'll be around!! the song don't ya know..

    I just got a very good Savage 99 F in .308 from my friend at the pawnshop… great wood and bluing!! very cool looking with the flip up circle peep sight.. shoots very nice.. pretty good kick.. that sucker really makes a hole in the target!!! It was like they had exploding heads.. federal powerpoints I think they were.. I'm in love again..

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  17. Vince,

    I could be wrong about this, but I don’t see why Avanti Precision Ground Shot would be any better in something like the PPK/S. However, nobody made me the expert in everything. We experiment to discover how things really work.


  18. Wayne,

    Savage’s 99 is a remarkable lever action rifle. It’s much stronger than typical lever actions, so the rifle can chamber more powerful rounds such as that .308. And the Mannlicher-style magazine with the cartridge counter is a novelty.

    The F model has a straight wrist instead of a pistol grip, and you either like it or you don’t. It harkens back to the early days when the Savage model 95 lever action first came out.

    You haver a classic rifle there, Wayne. It’s an investment that will never depreciate if taken care of.


  19. .22 Multi,

    Thanks for your feedback. I have been familiar with the 850 site for over a year, and that is why, after inquiring of others regarding modding the trigger, I am turning to Vince for one last try.

    By the way, I received the Pulse R76 (I had enjoyed the R72) last week, and although it is $45 more than the R72, it is a far inferior gun in several important ergonomic ways. It also only shoots about 45 fps faster than its little brother vs. 100 fps faster as advertised (I suspect that few Airsoft fans actually chrony their guns), but it loses accuracy in the process, is the most uncomfortable rifle to try to aim because of its flimsy wire stock, has several weak/lose joints/areas which prevent proper scoping (the scope is mounted atop a re-movable batter cover which has lots of flex!), misfires far more often than the R72, and on and on…I think it really points out what a great buy the R72 is, because the R76 is really much more like so many of the cheaper airsoft guns, whereas the R72 is like a medium priced airgun.

    – Dr. G.

  20. Wayne,
    Now there’s your elk rifle. If its already drilled and tapped, you might as well scope it, but don’t throw away the sights. The F part also seems to mean “featherweight”, which is why the little .308 kicks so much:).

    Incidentally, I believe Schoenauer designed the rotary magazines in the M-S’s. Savage did not copy that, I think, since the Savage came out in 1899 and the M-S in 1903? Sadly, whatever the connection or lack thereof, it seems like neither Steyr nor Savage could produce the rotary magazine designs economically after WWII.

  21. B.B. & your revolver guys
    Just a note,
    is their a way to prevent draglines on a revolver. And possibly remove the line from the cylinder without harming the blued finish. My particular revolver(s) is a S&W 586 and a blued Dan Wesson 14-2.

  22. B.B.

    I just fell in love with it standing on the shelf.. then Clyde started telling me about her as he handed her for my inspection… he said about the same as you… a real classic and great shooter..

    I could say no to her.. I probably over paid at $695, but when in love.. money is less important!!


  23. Wayne,

    With all of the rounds your team is putting out, probably any one of them is qualified to be a trainer. I don’t know if any specific training is needed to convert from rimfire to PCP, and with springers, it boils down to the loose hold.

    Congratulations on the Savage 99, and from a pawnshop. Some guys have all the luck. Make sure to keep it oiled and maintained so that it doesn’t end up like my Winchester 94.

    All, I have updated my idea about practice on moving targets by riding around in a pick-up shooting clay pigeons–a bit cumbersome I admit. To transform your practice into a true 24 hour experience, get hold of a flight simulator (X-Plane for instance) and practice shooting at the hot air balloons and other targets of opportunity. The other day, I was diving onto a hot air balloon with an F-35 fighter plane and blasting it with my gatling gun. Hysterical.

    Somewhat closer to home, I was reading that a practice regimen of firearms legend, Jeff Cooper, was to sit in front of the TV with his bolt-action rifle. If an ad came up with a word containing two o’s in succession, like “balloon.” He would dry fire both, cycling the bolt, before the word disappeared. Probably best done alone….


  24. Josh,

    Timing is the way to prevent a dragline on a revolver. When I used to gunsmith Colt SAAs I did it all the time. But once done you cannot shoot for speed, because the holt will sometimes miss the cutout.

    Most factory revolvers are way out of time and drop the bolt far too soon. The factory doesn’t know whether a cop or a hunter will be buying the gun, so they set it up for speed and to hell with the finish wear.

    Another solution that permits fast firing and even fanning is to grind deeper approaches and blt notches, which we did on our gunfighting guns. But they only fired blanks. It wouldn’t be safe with factory ammo.


  25. B.B. & All

    Speaking Revolvers…

    I traded back the one with the hair trigger.. (nice dealing with a friend at the pawnshop, he gave me full credit).. I moved up to a Ruger .357 Black hawk, with a six inch barrel.. much stronger, super easy to clean, and the trigger is just right, light but still safe.

    I really like the fact I can shoot the lighter load .38 special for plinking and have the .357 mag for more serious affairs..


  26. Matt,

    As of the SHOT Show, Crosman estimates the Marauder will start shipping in May.

    They asked all dealers to remove all Marauder listings. PA complied but several haven’t.

    My Marauder arrives this coming week, so I’ll begin testing it for you.


  27. Vince,

    Every bb gun that I own (including the PPK blowback) works better with Avanti, assuming that lead balls cannot be used (which are always more accurate than steel).

    Avanti bbs in my blowback produce 5-shot, 4″ groups at 10 meters, with 3 second rest between shots. They never fail to cycle and never jam.

    – Dr. G.

  28. B.B.
    If you get tired of the Haenel you just snagged off of the yellow(i was eyeing it)let me know. What kind of fps do you reckon it will shoot?

    Also do you think rick willnecker will have a piston seal for a 353 winchester?


  29. B.B.

    thanks for the info. I wasnt sure if you would even have time to comment. I watch the yellow all the time as a lurker and have never purchased anything yet… or sold yet… If I get a seal the 353will be my first attempt at selling on the yellow. I will be waiting for the reports, I love breakbarels with the finger groove and that is why that one caught my eye.

    thanks again


  30. Ya’ll will like this,
    I heard a man was trying to commit suicide by shooting himself with a .380ACP (wasn’t told the make)from a Dr. friend. He shot under his chin, the gun recoiled and he blew his cheek off. 2nd shot was on the forehead, again the recoil made the bullet skim and chip the bone. 3rd shot was behind the ear, he didn’t miss for a first. 4th and 5th shot was directly on top of his head, he hit the front of his brain and caused permanent damage, then rolled over and was saved by and ambulance. Makes gun owners look bad.
    Shadow express dude

  31. Hia Wayne,
    I love the Ruger Blackhawks, great guns.
    Just remember that if you shoot a lot of cast lead .38 specials in a .357 chamber, you need to make sure to clean the cylinder very well. The lead will have a tendency to build up on the inside wall of the cylinder since the .38 case is a bit shorter. If neglected you could have problems loading the .357 in the chambers.

    If you handload you can use the same reduced charge in a .357 case to prevent that from occuring.

    JoeG from Jersey

  32. Does anyone have any thoughts on the BSA Polaris or BSA Supersport XL? I’m a Canadian air gunner who is looking for a nice Powerful spring rifle, I would like something in the 1000 fps range or higher. I currently own a crosman quest 500x, I am finding it to be less accurate then I wanted. I am planing to swap out the spring for a full power spring for the quest 1000x. Is this recommended

  33. Joe G. & B.B.

    Thanks for the info on the .38 specials… I have been saving my cases and plan to reload someday.. especially for the savage .308!!!

    But that will have to be when I have more space.. no room for anything like that now!


  34. Carter,

    BSA rifles are noted for their accurate barrels. In fact, BSA barrels are in the cams class as Lothar Walther and Anschutz.

    I have shot the Supersport and can tell you that it’s a fine air rifle. The Polaris appears to be the new name for what they used to call the Superstar, and I owned one of them. That was a very smooth and fine air rifle and I rate it above the Supersport.

    I don’t care for BSA’s rotary breech, and neither will you after you see it, but it is something you can get used to. Only the Polaris has it–the Supersport is a breakbarrel.

    Either rifle should be a good one.


  35. Shotgun report,

    I also traded back the Fulton 12ga. double barrel.. after a few more shots, she got real loose where the stock fits the receiver.. sure great dealing with people you know!!…

    While I’m waiting for the overunder browning Citori lighting 12ga.. I thought I should have a 16ga semi-auto Remington that was only $165.. I was told that this is a real unique shotgun.. it’s the only one Remington made with the Browning patent on the spring loaded barrel… The barrel absorbs most of the recoil by sliding back when fired.. you can adjust the spring tension for different shells.. very cool..

    The reason it was cheap, was it doesn’t advance the shells every time, sometimes it ejects the next unshot shell with the shot one.. Anyone know of an easy fix… or is it off to the gunsmith.. for the price.. I’ll shoot it as a single shot if I can’t get it fixed..

    It is for sure easy to shoot..


  36. Hia Wayne,
    You might get lucky with a real good cleaning; and maybe a seal rplacement. I would bet its gas operated like my Remington LT 20, which every now and then the gas orfices in the barrell can dirty up. Also needed to replace a gas seal at one point.

    I no longer relaod my 20 guage with Unique powder. It burns dirty in that gun.

    JoeG From Jersey

  37. Wayne,

    Right on with your "pain in the butt" comment. Excluding people is not what the airgunner community needs. I hate that kind of thing.

    I'm anxious to hear about your Blackhawk, another fantasy gun of mine. Since I believe it is supposed to be a replica of the Colt SAA, I had pictured it in .45 LC. However, I think instead I will get a Ruger Single Six in 22LR which is the same thing but much cheaper for the amount of ammo I would fire through it.

    If you are thinking of the Blackhawk as a self-defense pistol, or even hunting, I suspect that learning how to work a single-action quickly will take some practice. Elmer Keith says that the trick is to let the gun recoil slightly upward and work the hammer as you bring the barrel down. Fanning, he says, is very hard on the gun and will break parts. For self-defense, you might consider an autoloader, or if you're committed to revolvers, a double-action. Does anyone know if there is such a thing as the classic S&W police revolver? I don't believe than any police shot the model 29 N frame except Dirty Harry. Don't forget, Wayne, the world of airgun pistols is beckoning. I enjoy them as much as the rifles.

    B.B., that seems a little counterintuitive for promotion for Benjamin to forbid advance postings. But the main thing is that it's on the way and that you are getting a test rifle. I can't wait to hear the reports. I'm picturing the Marauder as a rough equivalent to the Air Force rifles with a magazine, built-in shroud and improved trigger.

    BG_Farmer, yes, I remember the LW barrel from the beginning. However, unless there is a big surprise with the velocity I see the Air Force Edge as holding the lead for the 10 meter rifles. It seems like the difference is about $100 for much superior sights, and if you're spending this kind of money that sounds worth it. I can't wait for the tests on these rifles as well. It will be a great year for the blog!


  38. Wayne,

    I assume its a Remington model 11 or 11-48? Those are the only recoil operated semi. shotguns I can find record of from Remington. Its supposed to be close to Browning A5. 11-48 is post-war update of model 11.

    Here’s a little background on model 11:

    Without knowing anything more, its possible the shells you are firing may simply be too powerful for the current configuration (it can be set up for different power-level shells). Clean it carefully (be careful of over-oiling) and try the lightest load you can find. Otherwise, there may be an A5 or model 11/11-48 expert who can tell you exactly what to do. My guess is that a gunsmith wouldn’t charge much to fix it, if its just a setup problem or a simple part repair/replace. Be sure you know what shells you plan to use in it.

  39. Matt,
    I doubt I could ever get used to an AF rifle. I’m warming to synthetic stocks slowly, but mainly because some of them ironically have more traditional shapes…the Edge is way out there:).

  40. Carter, I’m pretty certain that your Quest 500X has a shorter stroke than the standard 1000X. If you put a 500X spring in a regular 1000X you wind up with velocities in the upper 700’s… which is way beyond what the 500X is supposed to do.

    If you contacted Crosman and ordered a new spring, seal, compression tube, front and rear guide assemblies, and piston for the 1000X you might be able to then get full power. You might also need a new barrel with cocking linkage. Hopefully the stock will interchange.

    If this sounds silly, keep in mind that Crosman parts are fairly reasonable, and everything above might come out to less than $60.

    As for Wos’s comment, personally I can’t make heads or tails out of it… it doesn’t seem to make any sense at all.

    Anyway, hope this helps…

  41. Matt,

    It’s not counterintuitive at all. People hear about a gun for months and they get pissed off because it isn’t ready. The SHOT Show is for retailers, only, but I showed you what will be coming out in 2009.

    And I did show the Marauder in that report.



  42. BG_Farmer,

    I found the AF rifle metal stock unnacceptably cold as well.

    I live 3 miles from the ocean on the NorthEast Coast, and from late fall to early spring you do not want to hold bare metal with naked hands outdoors.

    I covered the trigger guard and surrounding metal [and some plastic] area (where it is held) with several 1/2″ strip layers of gray weatherstripping. After several months, the area where your hand/finger hold the rifle becomes compressed and indented, making a very comfortable, warm, personal air rifle.

    Of course I have covered all my tanks with different colored athletic socks flipped over once to make a soft warm cheek rest, and so that I also easily know which tank is which (CO2, MicroMeter, etc.).

    I no longe think of it as metal…now I think of it as the .25 Condor which is 100% functional for hunting or target shooting.

    When I hold the Whiscombe, which I have not had to modify this way, I behold a museum piece of metal and wood that marks the pinnacle and end of 20th century mechanical spring airgun engineering.

    The 21st century requires electronics, plastic, and the type of Air Force intelligent engineering that keeps a gun worth over $2,000 costing under $800. If you are an engineering type and emphasize function over appearance, then the Air Force line is for you. If you have some esthetic sense, than clearly you need to avert your eyes.

    – Dr. G.

  43. Matt61,

    I'm very heavy into the air pistols now.. about a 15 or so.. mostly co2 crosman.. but some old CZ springers too.. the collection grows as we speak!!

    I'm not at all into self defense.. sorry about that..
    unless your talking a wild animal..

    So for me, it's shooters/plinkers, & a side arm while hunting, kind of thing, to put a wounded animal out of it's misery.. that are worth collecting too..

    So.. I love the single action trigger and slowly pulling back that hammer with real intent!! The .357 blackhawk was real easy to group at 15 yards..(4" off the bat). so I set up a 8" shoot n see at 30 yards.. and once I found the aiming point.. I got 2 out of 5 real close to the bull.. the others not even on the target.. but heh.. I felt great!!

    And I really love my H&R 929 .22 pistol.. really fun.. and cheap to shoot.. a real fun "can walker" as Volvo would say…


  44. Joe G & BG_Farmer

    Wow!! that sounds like it could be the problem..

    And that link is it for sure.. Remington model 11A ..

    I'm going to read up on it.. thanks so much for that link.. this is the best place for sure about guns of all types!!! you guys are the best.. thanks everyone!!

    Wacky, wandering, wondering, Wayne

  45. Is there any part in the quest 500 that limits the length of the stroke ? I really don’t want to have to buy the whole gun again (without stock)but I am guessing I have to. I probably wouldn’t be going through this if you could obtain decent guns in canada.

    To wos, I use pyramyd air because they have more air gun info then any other site I’ve seen.

  46. Remington 11 report,

    Turns out it’s the “Sportsman” model introduced in 1931.. The diagram on that link, showed how to place the rings for light or heavy loads.. it was set for light loads.. so I changed it to heavy and cleaned and lightly oiled it.. I’ll bet she works fine now.. I’ll see tomorrow..


  47. BB and all,
    I find it downright annoying trying to find ammo for my .38super 1911. I was considering getting a ruger MKIII, which I’ve shot many times. Or an airsoft blowback 1911. I was kind of leaning towards the Ruger because of the amount of things that go wrong in airsoft guns (hop up breaks, trigger breaks, sears, frames, and I’ve even had fractured pistol butts), but I could then shoot in the backyard without paying for a range fee. Can anyone recommend a high mileage airsoft training 1911 under $170
    Shadow express dude

  48. SED, WE-tech makes a decent one that available for about $140. Pyramyd used to sell it, but they don’t anymore. I’ve got one, and when my buddy (ex-Marine Corp Capt.) tried it out he couldn’t stop giggling.

    If you google “WE Tech M1911 Government Full Metal Gas Blow Back Airsoft Pistol With Spare Magazine ” you’ll find it pretty quickly.

    Pyramyd does sell this one:


    which may be made by the same manufacturer, but I don’t know for sure.

  49. B.B.,

    Yes, I had forgotten about the agonies of waiting for a new rifle.

    BG_Farmer and Dr. G, the Edge is out there, but at least they've given us another color to work with besides the pink. I kind of like the Air Force aesthetic for its no-nonsense futuristic look. I sort of enjoy that in a small way with the IZH 61.

    Wayne, I must have missed when you made the entry into air pistols, but I see you have in your usual style. Nice shooting with the .357. You and my Dad could form a club. He hit a couple bullseyes with my S&W 1911 at 25 yards on his first time out, and has been talking about them for months.


  50. Matt#61……Re. Air Force Edge Accuracy

    This is a reading test for you…whether you are reading this, days after the original post.

    My .25 (and presumably all other) Air Force Condor, using the CO2 tank yielding over 500 shots for really quiet 10 meter indoor target shooting, produces 10-shot groups of 3/16" using SORTed H&N h.p. pellets.

    Using the Micrometer tank wtih UNsorted Kodiak 31 grain pellets at 10 meters produces 3/16."

    Sorting improves pellet groups by 1/16"; using the micrometer tank over the CO2 improves the groups another 1/16"; using Kodiaks improves the groups another 1/16"; and using .22 or .177 MAY improve the groups again (I do not have experience there, but I hear people talk).

    So, when I sort Kodiaks and use the Micrometer tank, I get 10-shot groups of 2/16." I recently added a modification to my air rifle which may allow me to improve my sitting groups to match my bench rest groups.

    If that happens and I want to keep using my Condor as a target rifle, I wonder if switching barrels would yield improved 10 meter accuracy of 1/16"? That could save me a lot of money over getting an Edge. Could be a very expensive 1/16."


    Any improvement in accuracy expected at 10 meters going from Condor .25 to .177? Thanks.

    – Dr. G.

  51. Dr. G.,

    Abso-friggin’-lutely! The .25 is know as the least accurate smallbore. The .177 is on the other end of the spectrum.

    Group sizes at 10 meters are supposed to measure in the single-digit hundredths of an inch at 10 meters from a target rifle.


  52. B.B.,

    Thanks for your quick response!

    Can I expect then at least a 1/16″ improvement at 10 meters going from .25 to .177 Condor?

    That would bring me to 1/16.” That may not be good enough for competition, but I doubt that even 1 in a 100 people (including me) reading this blog could shoot a 10-shot group better than 1/16″ from a sitting position…

    …Meaning that there may be no functional purpose for the Edge except for use by real competitive shooters, and I can save my $$.

    Looking forward to your reply, B.B.

    – Dr. G.

  53. B.B.,

    I will soon buy a .177 barrel and try to screw it on. I guess it must be similar to changing a Whiscomber barrel, which I ended up doing purely for improved 10 meter accuracy.

    I have about 15 types of .177 pellet, and so I hope I do not have to buy any more. For super accuracy at 10 meters, what 3 should I be trying?

    Thanks again.

    – Dr. G.

  54. Dr. G.,

    Swapping the AirForce barrel is easier than swapping the Whiscombe. More screws but easier.

    Three best pellets:

    RWS R10,
    H&N Match, and

    I would try the 0.451 heads first, but if you have a 0.452 try it, as well. The 0.450 and smaller won't be as good in a Lothar Walther barrel.


  55. Jim,

    Sure, you can link to this page.

    Parts for the Crosman M1 Carbine are very problematic, becasuse most owners don't want to part out their guns. The powerplant is a straightforward Crosman V-350 or V-3500, so those parts will interchange, but the exterior is the stuff that's difficult to find.

    There are sources for dummy magazines from time to time, but no one has made a working copy that I know of–yet. But, since the mag has nothing to do with the functionality of the gun, it makes little difference as far as shooting goes.

    I am also interested in the M1 Carbine and I have an early Winchester spring tube rifle (all type 1 parts, nearly all Winchester) that is as pristine as they get. They stocked it in walnut that looks like curly maple and the cartouches are as crisp as the day they were new, just three months into the contract.


  56. BB.

    I own a Crosman M1 Carbine in pretty decent shape. Given to me about 15 years ago. From day 1 of owning it, it has never retained the bb's with in the rifle if the rifle barrel was to be tipped to the ground. It looks like the previous owner had taken the rifle a part once or twice. Do you know of any parts that may need to be replaced to correct this problem and/or a place in which I can find replacement parts if needed?

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