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What is coming to the world of airguns?

by B.B. Pelletier

Today being Friday, I want to give youse guys something to talk about all weekend. As for me, I’m in the Catskills, filming new episodes of American Airgunner.

Coming soon
Well, Crosman has a PCP pistol that’s going to hit the market pretty soon, which I mean by Christmas. If not by then, certainly early next year. I shot it while in New York and it’s both powerful and accurate. Imagine a 2240 with a longer barrel and reservoir tube. I was able to cut weed stems at 23 yards when shooting in the Creedmore position. Imagine this thing as an affordable air pistol! Look for 12 foot-pounds.

There’s been an awakening among airgun manufacturers in the past three years. There’s been more innovation in the past three years than in the 40 years before that. I don’t think the trend has peaked yet, so I look for some surprises in the near future. The companies to watch are AirForce, Gamo, Crosman and FX.

I expect an affordable electric compressor capable of filling an air rifle to 3,000 psi by the SHOT Show of 2010. I expect it to run on both 110 house current and 12-volt car current, and it should take just a few minutes to fill a standard-sized PCP like a Hammerli Pneuma. Best of all, I expect the retail price to be at or below $500.

In a couple of years
There’s a new type of powerplant on the horizon. I expect to see it in production within the next couple of years. Performance will be equal to certain centerfire firearms. It will revolutionize the world of sporting airguns when it comes to market.

The world of spring guns has not come to a standstill. With guns like the Chinese AR1000 and all of its derivatives on the market, I know we have not yet reached the end. I remember spring rifles that many of you have never seen. Rifles like those from Ivan Hancock. His powerful actions were as smooth as butter, yet they delivered the greatest power in their class. I expect to see another round of rifles just as nice but manufactured rather than hand-built.

On the far horizon
Many people think 10-meter airguns have gone as far as they can, technologically. I disagree. I believe there’s room for a novel new type of sight for air pistols that makes them much easier to shoot. Remember the success of bicycling’s world hour record holder, Graeme Obree (a.k.a. The Flying Scotsman), who set the racing world on edge with his homemade bicycles and the “Superman” riding style that has now been banned?

I believe that a novel new sighting system along the lines of the aperture system used on rifles could have a huge impact on air pistol competition.

There’s no good reason that PCPs are as expensive as they are. When Crosman brought out the Benjamin Discovery, they shattered the PCP price barrier. Oh, the Chinese already had a cheap PCP, but it wasn’t what I consider a credible gun. The Disco showed the world what can be done. Well, I know a secret. We haven’t gone as far as it’s possible to go, yet.

In the world of engineering, there’s a process called a Pareto analysis in which you study a design to do more with less. This process is so successful that it is at the heart of “Japanese” management, which is nothing more than allowing the people closest to the operation (the worker bees) to have a large hand in the design. A Pareto analysis could be done on the Disco that could yield remarkable savings.

I think we have not yet discovered the best relationship of spring load to power and cocking effort in spring guns. I look for a 20-25 foot-pound rifle in the future that takes only 30 lbs. to cock.

We DEFINITELY haven’t seen all the optimum pellet designs, yet. I believe there’s a great long-range pellet on the horizon. In fact, I’ve been working on one, so I know that something is being done in this department.

So, that’s my look at what I think is coming in airguns. Now, tell us what YOU think!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

143 thoughts on “What is coming to the world of airguns?”

  1. BB
    In the May 22 blog you mentioned:
    "Hopefully, there will be one or possibly two new lines of optics coming to Pyramyd AIR soon, and the features on them are unlike any you've seen thus far."

    Have you written about them yet? If I missed it will you kindly point me to the article.

    Thanks again

  2. BB:

    An affordable electric compressor that fills up to 3,000 psi for under $500.00 will open the gates of the dam for the PCP air guns.

    Crosman will see it's sales for it PCP products duplicate with this addition.

    Bye-Bye to hand pump,s, tanks, etc..


  3. B.B.

    So, What I'm hearing is a Disco for $179:) when it's on sale and $219 sugg. retail…

    I won't be the first one to buy the compressor.. I think you get what you pay for in that item.. I have a hard time believing that it will hold up over time.. So, I'll watch and wait on that item… which is not my norm!

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  4. I'm not too keen on even more powerful AND cheaper rifles, this could lead to a ban on airguns (or ridiculous legal limits like in Germany) if some nutcase decides that he is going to use a cheap airgun instead of a firearm.

  5. I would love to see a TRUE semi-automatic PCP air rifle. No more rotary mags but a 10 shot magazine with and actual blow back bolt like a Ruger 10/22 and still have the power of the Discovery at least.

  6. Yea B.B. get on the stick. What have you been doing with your time.

    This article has my head spinning. I feel blessed to have been bitten by the airgun bug at such a revolutionary time in the development of equipment.

    "A new type of powerplant on the horizon whose performance will be equal to certain centerfire firearms?" This is potentially huge to airguns. What could this be?

    I've been looking forward to an affordable electric compressor that can fill to 3,000 psi. I didn't know the introduction was as close as the Shot Show 2010. There's no doubt in my mind that this will remove a major mental roadblock in many airgunners minds that have kept them from entering the pcp world. I'm constantly hearing that "I don't want to buy a tank, then fittings, then have to find a place to fill it, then re-fill it, etc. etc."

    A better long range pellet design on the horizon? Long range shooting is the latest obssession in my evolution of airgunning. This spring I installed a 100 yard target on the hill behind my cabin. What an unending challenge especially with the wind that changes direction 3 times during a shooting session. Sure wish B.B. would get on the ball and finalize his design of a long range pellet.

    Very exciting stuff.


  7. Patrick,

    You make a good point.

    In my opinion, it's not improved design in firearms or airguns that we should fear but rather apathy and a lack of vigilance on our part that could result in additional, unwarranted gun regulations.


  8. I, too fear the development of an air rifle with power rivaling that of a centerfire arm. It could bring unwanted regulation and, when the lower elements of our society find out what something like this can do or, it is misused by careless or foolish owners, will bring further poor publicity to our sport resulting in tighter regulations and perhaps even more bans similar to what is now in NYC, NJ and Michigan.

    Just my opinion.


  9. An affordable electric compressor definitely has my interest, hopefully it will be durable also. This has been the real factor in keeping me away from pcp's in the first place. Hand pumps are ok, but scuba tanks are not real practical if you have to go to a dive shope to refill them. I agree with Warren in that this could have a profound effect on pcp sales in the future. But like I said, it needs to be durable and not burn out in six months. I, like many I'm sure, will be keeping a close eye on this when it happens.
    BB, thanks for the info on upcoming advances in the world of air gunning, thats why I read this blog every day!

  10. Wow, a quick google yielded this on airgun bans. And remember the UK is limited to 12fpe.


    I fear a flood of CB Cap strength (30fpe) and stronger airguns will bring unwanted attention in the USA.


    And it won't matter if licensing is easy, the manufactures will start to produce what sells and niche guns will go up in price. At least the USA still has liberal firearm laws, maybe that will distract the legislature for a while.

  11. Jake,

    Authoritah! Nice!
    The 2260s are very accurate guns for the money. Absolutely love mine. By all means, get a nicer breech when you're able.
    Ahh….college days. That's when I got into airguns pretty seriously. I had at least a $emester$ worth of guns by the time I was graduated. No help from me there. If it's quality and comes up at a good price, it'll hold money better than a 401k as of late.


  12. Cool!

    – Crosman PCP pistol
    I've been looking for this one ever since the Discovery came out!

    – electric compressor < $500
    Yes! I've wondered why this stuff was so expensive. Low volume (pun intended) sales? Glad increased PCP sales are bringing this on. I just hope their quality is good. Will it be able to fill a SCUBA tank?

    – new powerplant
    Great! Will it shoot pellets or slugs?

    – price reductions (with same or increased quality)
    – better pellets
    – other improvements
    Bring them on!

    Like David, I'm waiting for affordable true semi-auto PCP rifles. The FX Monsoon, etc. are too expensive!


  13. Wow. I would love to see an affordable airgun with even HALF the power of a centerfire rifle.

    Do you know of any .177 pellet molds that would allow me to cast my own pellets? Just wondering.

  14. Re: fear the development of an air rifle with power rivaling that of a centerfire arm.

    Certainly appreciate the concern. Anything that raises the publics awareness of additional, potential gun regulation I'm in favor of. Especially if it encourages speaking out against unnecessary gun regulation.

    Airguns that rival the power of a centerfire already exist. Remember the .79 caliber rifle that shoots a 1,005-grain lead slug generating over 1,000 foot-pounds? A bison was taken with this airgun.

    I'm not as concerned about the "lower elements of our society finding out" about these powerful airguns and misusing them. They don't need to pay the price for this type of airgun and all it's necessary accessories in order to have a lethal weapon.

    I am concerned about the undue hysteria that could influence our lawmakers.

    Just my opinion.


  15. This is such a bad idea, I can't even express it sufficiently:
    "Performance will be equal to certain centerfire firearms. It will revolutionize the world of sporting airguns when it comes to market."
    You're 100% right, though, it will cause a revolution – a move toward airgun ownership restrictions indistinguishable from those for firearms.

  16. Airguns wih the power of firearms! I think it would be better for our hobby to have main stream airguns stay below the power of firearms. I am almost sure that where I am from it will lead to restrictions on ALL airguns.


  17. I'd like to see a left-handed Marauder–or even a disco. Other makers that have the bolt coming out the rear of the receiver have made this an option pretty easily.

    Any chance that Crosman will? Your predictions????

  18. There's no way to keep the technological cat in the bag when it comes to airguns. They'll shoot faster and harder, and it's driven by demand. Therefore all we can do is fight to protect our right to bear arms, and each try to be good, responsible representatives of the shooting sports.

  19. Rather than more power, how about a magnum power rated spring piston rifle but weighing around 6 lbs instead of the 9 or 10 lbs my RWS 350 and RWS 52 weigh now. Those rifles are really challenging (I cleverly avoided swearing so as not to offend the ladies monitoring this blog – very proud) trying to shoot off-hand standing!


  20. B.B., Fred, Patrick and all,

    I like the idea Of the long range pellet, but don't understand the need for more powerful airguns that will rival some centerfires.

    Without a doubt, I see more regulations on the horizon.

    How many of you are aware that in this years tour de France two riders were shot with A pellet gun by some idiot hiding on the hillside above the road? One was shot in the thigh and the other in cheek.

    That scares me. A few more incidents like this, especially in the states, well,……..use your imagination.

    I'm not trying to be a scare monger but after 23 years of being a cop, this does scare me.

    BobC NJ

  21. I'm excited about the lowering of PCP prices and refining of power plants to make the firing cycle better.

    I am also concerned that increasing the power to that of centerfire firearms may backfire 🙂 on us! What's nice about airgunning now is that I can go in my back yard and have some fun without raising too many eyebrows. My fun would be ruined if I had to go to a shooting range every time I wanted to blow some holes in tin cans.

  22. I agree that we must compare airgun power to firearm power is little in possible.
    Here in Canada any airgun over 500fps requires the same registrations (FireArms Acquisition) that a firearm requires. Even a lightweight like the R7 either needs to be detuned or licensed.
    How many future murderers/gang members are lining up to buy R7's?
    I think it has gone the way of the political dodo, but I remember a few months back Scotland was looking at banning airguns outright.
    I know that as airgunners velocity and hitting power are important…but I would cringe to see advertising comparing them to a centerfire.
    Yet I know that manufacturers love to fight the 'horsepower' war in their advertising.
    CowBoyStar Dad

  23. The reporting on tour de France incident isn't very good. Some say BB gun, some say airgun, some say pellet gun and even the description of the "pellet" differs. Some say shot, others say pellet although they seem to agree that it is lead. They also agree that one hit a rider's finger, another embedded in a different rider's thigh (no hits in the face/cheek). The third is unaccounted for.

    There were three shots heard so its not a springer, or a pumper. It could be a PCP or CO2, but they just say they "think" it was an airgun. Since they removed the projectile from the thigh they should know whether it is or not unless it isn't a standard pellet/BB! So what are they missing that they can't make a definite statment.

    No matter what society's laws are there will always be a nutcase out there that uses something to hurt people (maybe throwing cast iron fry pans at the riders)!

  24. I followed the Tour on Versus and even got my family interested in it. I love two wheel racing, particularly motorcycles. I shuddered when I heard about the incident where the two riders were shot during the part of the Tour in France.

    What type of drunken fool would want to do something like that?

    On the lighter side, anonymous brings up a good point. We need to regulate those cast iron frying pans – especially where my wife is concerned. In her hands, it's a deadly weapon and I don't mean if she tries to swing it at me!


  25. I wonder if the new propulsion system will be the green or red gas that's used in many airsoft pistols. It could also be propane. Tippmann came out with their C3 a few years ago. It's a propane powered paintball marker that gets over 20,000 very consistent shots at tournament velocity (280-300 fps depending on league rules) per 1 pound tank. It costs about the same amount of money to fill a 20oz CO2 as it does to buy a prefilled 1lb propane tank, and you'll only get about 900 shots from the CO2.

    Because pellets are smaller and lighter than paintballs, I'd expect to get far more shots at a greatly higher velocity if this system were adapted for pellet rifles.

  26. I have waited a long time to say this. In fact, this is the first time I've ever expressed my opinion directly on firearms and pellet guns, as a convicted felon.
    Over 24 years ago, I did something really dumb that was against the law…and at the time I didnt realize how wrong that was. Nobody died or was hurt. Unfortunately for me though, that dumb mistake resulted in a felony conviction. Now I cannot possess firearms to protect my wife and I.
    I have pellet guns to keep the pests away, to amuse myself with target shooting, and to keep my shooting skills honed in case they are ever needed in some way.
    I am afaid that more powerful airguns will result in regulation, and most likely leave me without anything to even shoot a pest with.
    Each story that I read about somebody using an airgun to hurt another person or property damage makes me just a little more uneasy about that looming regulation. I can only hope that if there is regulation of airguns, the laws would leave the 30ftlbs airguns out of the picture. But dont get me wrong, I dont think there should be any regulation of airguns, or any regulation of firearms. It is the nutcases that are the danger…not the airguns or firearms.
    Now on a lighter note…a nice Crosman Marauder .22 (or .25) is the ticket for me now, a handpump, and that affordable aircompressor too. Hopefully the compressor will be durable.
    I will sign off as anonymous, because that is best for me. But my friends and family know me, and know that a great injustice has been done to me. I wish I could have that right to bear arms, I miss it terribly.
    Perhaps if there is someone out there reading this…and thinking of using an airgun to harm a person or property, I say to you…DONT DO IT!!! You are affecting everyone who enjoys the little freedom that we have left.

  27. Just posted on Tactical-Life.com
    Today Ireland passed into the books a law prohibiting handguns. All and any…period.
    As well it is a criminal offense to 'brandish' a lookalike handgun, meaning I assume that if you were showing your Crosman or Daisy pistol to your neighbour you'd be hooped.
    I think these are genuine concerns that have been raised here.
    CowBoyStar Dad

  28. BB,

    I recently got a Talon SS and while I love the gun, I can't get it to group consistently. Sometimes it will group and sometimes it will be off by 3 inches in all directions @ 20 yards! I can't figure out what's wrong! I have the stock 12" barrel and an 18" barrel, both do the same thing.

    Is there a common cause for something like this? DO I have to send it back to airforce to get it looked at?



  29. I would like to see a .25 or .32 cal MSP for hunting. Also decent pellets in these calibers. I think air gun hunting is the wave of the future here in the north east (western NY) where I live. There are alot of short range hunting possiblities in what is becoming a semi-rural landscape. On the worry about more regulation. I wish gun owners would get it into their heads that the anti-gun force do not give a rat's ass WHAT KIND of gun is made. They want all guns banned period! Please join the NRA even if you only have a BB gun. Robert

  30. A.R.,
    Sorry it took a while to get a reply back to you but UPS delivered my JSB's today and have been shooting in the backyard. I am with you 100% that it does NOT matter what kind of magazine as long as it is a TRUE semi-auto PCP. I would just like to see something more like a clip underneath instead of a bulky rotary magazine on top.

  31. Mr B,
    You are welcome. It did take a lot of courage to say it…its been brewin for a long time. I'm kickin myself in the arse everday for what I did a long time ago…trust me…nobody needs to do it for me. I did my time, I paid for my crime, but there's still a lingering penalty, and it really bugs me. It bugs everyone else who knows me too…and they say "cant you do anything?" "cant you get that reduced to a midemeanor?"…nope…not without a Governor's pardon, and they dont do that for guys like me, mostly just for guys that actually didnt do what they were convicted of. In my case, I did something…although not everything that I was accused of…but I broke the law. Unfortunately that will follow me to my grave. I have bad depression because of that, cant shake it…even with anti-depressants and family/friends who love me.

  32. Something I think should be put on magnum rifles is a cocking extension. This would be a tube on the side of the barrel that would slide out to increase leverage.

  33. Hello All:
    What I am waiting for is for AirForce to produce a Condor/Talon style airrifle, but with at least a ten shot magazine!!!!!!…… That would be awesome!!

  34. Jack

    Which pellets are you using?? i recommend using heavy pellets such as Kodiaks or EuJins…. or extremely well made pellets such as JSB Exacts….. I had the same problem some while ago when I bought the rifle… but trust me, you have the best of the best in your hands!!

  35. I for one, will be first in line for the air compressor. There is nothing in them that warrants the current prices. They just need to sell higher volumes to get the cost out. With all of the PCPs out there, the first company into this market with a realistic price will have a winner.


  36. Hi guys,
    Well I bought the Diana 27 for $120. It is missing the rear sight but the rest of the gun is flawless! It also shoots great. My question is where can I find a rear sight for it? Any help is appreciated.


  37. Dave,

    Magnum Research has the semi-auto Desert Eagle for $140 (although CO2), so I'm sure they can make an affordable semi-auto PCP rifle! 🙂


  38. BB,

    How about laying some statistics on us about the kind of market that is supporting this type of technological explosion.


    I second the shoot good pellets comment. CP's or JSB's work good. After that, make sure you the hammer latches smoothly after you load (pull back and slide all the way to the same side for each test shot). The top hat should be positioned that once you have done the above step, you have no play between the hammer/breech cover and the top hat (not too tight either!) – If you have too much play, you could be getting inconsistent hammer hits causing variable fps. There is a possibility the barrel is mounted off center/loose, but if the mechanism operates smoothly, probably not. If those tips don't work, you can try the Talon forum – http://talonairgun.com/forum/

  39. To all,

    "Performance will be equal to certain centerfire firearms."

    We should take this statement at face value. Upon reading this, I associated centerfire with the .223 and .308, and performance with velocity, which is a bit worrysome.

    However, the caliber pellet (bullet?) this performance would be achieved with is not specified, and as Kevin pointed out, there's more than one way to get 1000 foot-pounds. A big enough projectile going 400 fps could do the trick.

    Additionally, there are many centerfire rounds used. The smallest commercial round is the .17 Remington, which produces 874 fb-lbf with a .20 grain bullet, and 982 ft-lbf with a 30 grain bullet. The .79 rifle Kevin mentioned could best that energy-wise.

    Just trying to keep people from freaking out.

    On a seperate note, more affordable PCPs is a big 😀 from me, especially that air compressor. The trade off for the low cost would likely be less volume of air moved in a certain time than with a scuba compressor. For airgunning, paintballing, and other low-volume purposes, it'd be perfect. It just might take a few days to fill a scuba tank.

    And YES to more left-handed (or truly ambidextrous) guns! We're people, too!

    I think this is my longest post yet.

  40. Jack

    Take a look at this:http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3143

    These rifles are very accurate but take practice to shoot well. I was shooting at 40 and 100 yards this afternoon and shot several MOA groups though only one at 100 yards and this was from a sitting position not a bench. With practice you will be putting pellet after pellet in the same hole at 20 yards.

    Hope the link helps,

  41. Anonymous with the record, I'm gonna get preachy for a moment.

    Bishop Fulton Sheen once addressed a room full of convicts, and told them 'There's only one difference between you me. The difference is that you got caught'. Your offense happened to be one that had been codified into the law at the time you committed the act. But each and everyone here is guilty – and some no doubt more than you – of committing crimes against justice. THOSE acts just didn't happen to be illegal at the time, or no one saw us do it.

    As for the penalty that will stay with you for the rest of your life, there's nothing I can say except that the judgments and penalties of man don't last forever. But there are judgments that last forever, and THAT judge is always ready to hear a plea for leniency. So don't lose heart.

  42. Edith & Vinceb,

    Well, said..

    I second.. do I hear a yea vote?

    Annon, thanks for sharing..

    We have two members of our LLC that have felon records and can't touch the firearms I've collected..
    ..but they sure enjoy the air guns!! I feel your pain.. cause I see it on their faces.. it's a real bummer!!

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  43. Speaking of firearms..

    I got back the Hi-Point 9mm C/P semi-auto… It was jambing on the last round in a magazine. The store sent it back to the factory for me, and it came back in two weeks. They replaced the ejector key, and buffed the chamber ramp. Test fired it and sent me an extra magazine for my trouble!

    I'm impressed! I guess they mean it when they say lifetime warranty!

    Not bad for $149..

    Of course, I went straight to the range and shot 100 rounds.. perfect!! I be jammin.. not the gun!!

    I still like the S&W 27 frame 357 mag revolver best.. don't get your hopes up!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  44. Ahh the future… the last undiscovered country. Let's all go there together and enjoy lower cost better shooting airguns.

    I'm going with or without you so you might as well join.

    BB get some prototype pellets together I'll take a couple tins in 22cal.

  45. Speaking of future air guns, I've been thinking about how to make an "artillery" breakbarrel. Put the piston, action and barrel on a recoiling mount in the stock. Totally pointless, but it'd be interesting to see if it could be done without being too heavy (<9 pounds).

    WAY too many typoes the first time around.

  46. I can't help thinking that the innovation in airguns is driven by a quickly closing loophole. I'm glad that people on 1/4 acre lots can shoot air rifles at mischievous squirrels and coons, but once the rifles start to get into rimfire power range, much less centerfire range, there just isn't much way they can be fired safely (dedicated range excepted) in that environment, if its actually safe now.

    Removing the range limitation of the diabolo pellet removes any saftey advantage of the pellet rifle. The choice is this: airgunners accept the current power/range limitations and go on happily using them, most likely unmolested barring a rash of truly stupid incidents, or we push airguns into power ranges occupied by firearms and they become regulated heavily.

    As humbling as it is, I don't think criminals (and thus the government) have much interest at all in air rifles currently. However, that could change quickly if the difference b/t airguns and firearms is blurred too much.

    Keep in mind that the 2nd amendment protects our right to keep and bear "arms". Currently air rifles are not classified as arms, which means we really have no (constitutional) right to them. If that changes, we will (we hope still) have legal rights to bear air guns, but the restrictions on them and their use will be much heavier and they will not be usable w/in most cities and towns (or even some developed counties, such as in the northeast and California). Its not an encouraging situation.

    Incidentally, I can't imagine that a semiautomatic air rifle with anything near c/f power is going to be available through the mail to everyone over 18, not for long anyway:).

  47. Wayne
    amen to the HI-Point lifetime warranty.
    But aren't those pistols BLOCKY.
    gotta love 'em anyway for the price:)
    Wait till ya try one of their rifles in
    9mm or .40,enough power for small to mid size game hunting in a light compact frame.Interchangeable clips(I think)
    between rifle and pistol and just plain fun to shoot.

    An affordable reliable compressor would
    definitely push me over to the dark side

    Staying below the radar as much as possible sounds like the way to go to me
    Yes we have the NRA but they aren't all
    they're cracked up to be IMO,but still our best bet along with some other smaller Orgs.The biggest problem I see is apathy,to many people not willing to
    put their money,votes and time where their mouth is.
    Okay I'm too close to gettin political
    about this so I'll quit now.


  48. BG Farmer,

    It seems that most of us agree with you, however, we all know that there are idiots out there.

    And moms and dads whose idea of good parenting is buying their little precious whatever they ask for.

    Frankly, the latter makes me more worried about a centerfire-power air gun. Few news sells better than some kid gets hurt playing with guns.

  49. I just thought of something.

    Rather than make airguns shoot faster or farther, more than anything, I'd like to see a real lead-free pellet. Not a lightweight alternative, but something with comparable mass that's less harmful to the environment. Now that would be impressive.

  50. BGFarmer
    Guess I was typin about the same time you
    were postin.I'm with you on this one too.
    There are alot of us who want to keep
    this a recreation not a regulated sport.
    Yes I know it will grow faster with more
    recognition and to all you dedicated
    hunters and sportsman my hat's off to ya.
    I still think the majority who shoot AG's
    are folks that like backyard plinkin and
    quiet neighborhood shootin that don't want one of their last shootin hobbies
    Just my 2 copper plated zincs on the


  51. Edith/Wayne/Vinceb/AR tinkerer,

    Thankyou for your thoughts and kind words. I cant describe how happy I am inside…that some folks are so nice, and willing to type a few words, to take some time, to try and help. Today was a great day for me. Someone listened. How ironic it is that on an airgun forum, a man's spirits can be lifted…by those he has never met.

  52. Blowgunner62,

    There was a pellet mold in .177 back ijn the 1970s, but it wasn't popular. The mold was made of brass and it was obviously not going to work too well. There was no sprue plate, so the pellets would weigh whatever you trimmed them to weigh and there wasn't enough metal in the mold blocks to retain the heat.

    No real mold has ever been tried because all they can give you are bullets–no diabolos.


  53. Jackie,

    Your problem sounds like a sight problem, not a gun problem. The test is to clamp the gun in a vice or make it otherwise immobile and just shoot several groups. At 20 yards the five-shot group should be smaller than a dime for all rifles and many will be less than a quarter of an inch.

    Once you have done that test, let us know the results.


  54. Robert,

    Amen to your comment that the anti-gunners are after all guns. If we ignore them because they aren't after OUR guns at the moment, we;ll be like the Jews who continued to stay in Germany as the Nazis got progressively worse. There will be a pogrom.

    And the NRA is the strongest, most organized resistance group in the U.S. That's because they have the services of their 4-plus million members to draw upon. Believe me, the antis fear the NRA, because they always shine the light of the truth on them.

    Both Edith and I are Life members, and I am Endowment.


  55. Edith: my apologies in advance.

    Anon with the record, anyone here can tell you that the only reason Wos gets his posts deleted is the contents of those posts. If he started blogging in a reasonable fashion I think he'd be as welcome as anyone else.

    Oh, and to the best of my recollection the only time anyone here telling anyone else that they weren't welcome it was Wos – he said that to a foreign blogger for the simple reason that the blogger was not American.

    When Wos gets on here he generally acts like a jerk-off. I didn't say he WAS a jerk-off, but just that he acts like one here. If and when he ever stops doing that I don't think you'd see his posts getting deleted.

  56. Vinceb,
    Wos. doesn't always act like a jerk-off. One of his posts earlier said that this was one of B.B.'s most interesting blogs, and his post was removed. I think whatever he writes is removed. Edith is probably still sleeping:).

    Mr. B.

  57. I too would like to be able to mold 22cal pellets. Even if they were very heavy bullets instead of diabolo pellets.

    FYI… pellet from the factory are not molded. They are pressed. Not sure how that works… but as I understand it the lead is not melted.

    No doubt someone here has seen a how it is made video or something.

  58. Vinceb,

    When a person writes mostly unacceptable comments, then there comes a point where it's a waste of time to read them to cherry-pick the few that are acceptable. Chances were given. Now, the axe falls on everything he says. Remember, this is a commercial site provided by Pyramyd AIR.

    When I moderated our Airgun Letter's chat forum years ago, I made the comment that the forum was like the lobby of our business. All comers were welcome as long as they behaved. If someone decides to urinate in the corner, then they're removed. From that time forward, everyone understood the concept. It was a business site meant to help airgunners. When someone posted an inappropriate remark, I usually got a flurry of emails telling me someone was peeing in the corner.


  59. Vinceb,

    Guess we also have a new Mr. B. posting here. I did not write the post about Wos.

    Mr B.

    PS new Mr. B. How about using Mr. B2. Your "." after Mr. isn't enough difference bewteen you and I, ie, me @ Mr B. and you @ Mr.B. Thank you sir and looking fwd to seeing you here more often.

  60. Jackie,

    I agree with B.B. which most of us do most of the time. Let me add one thing to his excellent advice. You didn't say what you're using for a scope, but make sure all its mounting screws are properly tightened. B.B. has an excellent blog on mounting a scope. Use the search engine and check it out.

    I am shooting a stock Talon SS which is incredably accurate–1/4" groups at 16 yards. However, she won't do that with all pellets.

    Let us know what got your gun shooting good groups–thanks.

    Mr B.

  61. If Wos did write a proper post, I sure don't remember it.

    Edith, I suppose that's that way it is. Heaven knows it isn't unfair, he was certainly given enough chances.

  62. Chris,

    I get all my RWS sights and misc. spares from http://www.umarex.com, they are the official distributor for RWS in the USA.

    BUT they don't list a lot of the misc. parts on their website. Contact customer support and they'll hook you up.

    I've order front sight inserts, extra fixing bolts for the rear sight and so on. They're a very helpful company, I'm glad they handle the RWS and similar brands.

    PS. If PA listed it on their website I would buy it from them, I am very loyal customer 🙂


  63. JTinAL,

    I hadn't heard of a matching clip rifle for the HiPoint line.. do they do it in every cal. pistol? Sounds like a good idea.. if it works smoothly without a hitch.

    Anyone out there have and like the Taurus Judge revolver. It shoots 410 shotgun shells or slugs and .45 cal long colt. It seems to come in a 3" or 2 -1/2" chamber.

    I've heard good things locally, from hunters. They say you can have slugs for protection, and shot for a grouse or quail that pop up.. and .45 cal LC for longer range. We are thinking of the 6-1/2" barrel for these reasons.

    Oh my computer crashed, so I may have lost all your emails and addresses… ickcy.. I'll have our pros on recovery monday.. so let's hope.

    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  64. Hi guys I read/check the blog everyday for a new posts. I have never commented so I don't really know what to expect.

    I love shooting long range with small bore airguns. I would be very interested in a new pellet design. Since it will be good at long range can I assume that it will have a heavy weight(10-14 grains in .177 caliber) and have a high B.C.?

  65. Wayne,

    Sorry about the computer crash. Gun Tests, the magazine, has a review of the Taurus Judge in their August issue. The shot loads gave a pattern of 34" at 12 feet. Their conclusion was not very useful in the field with the shot loads. However they gave the Judge an A in their ratings.

    Mr B.

  66. I, too, hope that airguns do not get too powerful or designed for home defense-type purposes. As far as innovations, I have always wondered whether it would be a good idea to build a CO2/Pneumatic hybrid. It seems that this type of power plant could create much more power than a traditional C02 gun, but would require less effort to charge than a straight pneumatic. Also, the additional compression would warm the C02 to make the gun more efficient with propellant.

    Aside from that, as has been suggested before, a non-lead pellet that is accurate, affordable, and similar in characteristics to lead would be great.


  67. Vinceb,
    I'm not familiar with Wos, and did not see any post from him, directed my way(thank goodness). The good thing is, I've been reading here and participating for years, and never been treated badly.

    GWR(guy with record)

  68. GWR, may I make a suggestion? Pick out and sign a name or nickname so we're not always referring to you as "(someone) with record". Unless you buy a higher-grade Weihrauch air rifle, in which case we can refer to you as 'Guy With Rekord'. Otherwise, I'm afraid we'd just be rubbing salt in the wound, if ya know what I mean…

  69. Vinceb,
    Regarding GWR…I already have a name used many times, it is Davee1. How's that for bravery? Wasn't ready to disclose until just now. You helped me do it. Thanx

  70. Jake,

    There are a few 1980's 10-meter match guns that were spring piston with a recoiling action. The Feinwerkbau 300 rifle, the Feinwerkbau 65 and 80 pistols, the Anschutz LG380 rifle…

    The actions moved backwards a small amount to counteract the piston movement. These guns are all incredible shooters. –Far more accurate than we ever dream to be.


  71. While not in an acquisition mode currently, the $500 compressor will however be on my short list when it becomes available. Wayne, I agree that some of the less expensive models may have issues, but when used for one persons sole PCP I would hope they would offer respectable service. I assume Crosman would stand behind them and it would certainly be a great incremental sale item as a replacement for the outsourced hand pump.
    As far as a centerfire air rifle equivalent, no thanks. I have centerfire rifles for that. As BG farmer mentioned, that is probably over kill for us quarter acre guys anyway. : )
    Hope everyone is well,

  72. Wayne
    Hi-Point only offers carbines in 9mm and
    .40 cal.but if I'm remembering right the
    mags will swap out with no prob.9 mm carbine to pistol and .40 carbine to pistol
    Check with your dealer to be sure and see if He'll let ya look at mags for both.
    The only difference I recall is the
    mag extender on the bottom of the 9mm
    mag.may not fit the carbine.Been a few years since I had mine,I had the 9mm in both and a friend had the
    .40 in both.That .40 carbine was nice,
    looks and power.17.5 in. bbl in .40
    gives a nice solid kick and good power
    but easier to handle than the pistol.
    My biggest objection was the star wars looks especially with the chrome heat shield.
    My bro in law just got the 3 in. Judge
    in satin,or stainless kinda hard to tell,and it handles as nice as my taurus .357 4 in. not much kick with
    .410 and just a bit more with .45 LC.
    I don't recommend huntin past 15 yds.
    with the shot shells,not enough bbl
    means to much spread on the pattern.
    Anyway I really think you'd enjoy the
    HI-Point carbines,good power in a really compact gun.


  73. Thanks for the reviews on the "judge" folks… The pattern is why I wanted the 6-1/2" barrel.. that might tighten it up by 1/3..
    We'd be hunting Elk say, and so have the judge as "nighttime walk to post up protection" and walk home stumble upon a grouse and save the trip weapon!
    how would it be for that?

    Going good for me.. business much slower, since spring rush is over, but that leaves more time to play!

    How are you and your family is the bigger question, if you want to get into it.. blessing on you and your family either way! I hope to get back those photos you sent me long ago of your beautiful family! What great smiles.. they're contagious!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  74. To further put things in perspective,

    The .380 (not .38) ACP firing a 90 grain bullet rates at 200 ft-lbf – equal to the Dragon Slayer. The only difference is that the former is fired from a 3.75 inch barrel, the latter from a 9 pound behemoth.


    Good point on the .410. My dad's always telling me how when he grew up, lots of his friends had .22/.410 over-unders.

  75. Gustav,

    I believe the Japanese manufacturer Howa, is not currently imported into the USA. They did make a very high grade CO2 rifle that was styled like a Weatherby Mark V that was brough into the USA but that's it. As this blog is mainly centered on USA available air rifles and guns, it will be a surprise if any of our members has shot one or even owned one.

    We'll see.


  76. Volvo,
    You know you're busting those squirrels off the always full bird feeder with your .22-250, to protect the birds and your priceless vinyl soffit. Given a clear shot over the neighbor's roof or between houses, there's little danger. And a sturdy privacy fence or two will stop just about any projectile anyway:).

  77. Good afternoon everyone,


    I like your sarcasm, but you're right! No one will shoot the squirrels off their bird feeder with a 22-250 cause the cops will come a knocking before the last little piece of the squirrel hits the ground. Same thing with a big bore air rifle. The antigun folks don't need an excuse to come after us, but they're still working on the powder burners right now so we're comparatively safe. Give them enough time and lack of oposition and they'll eventually get around to us also.

    B.B. is right in saying that the NRA is the best game in town to keep the anti's at bay. If you're not a member, join and support them. My gun club, The Berwyn Rod and Gun Club, collected over 2000 cans of food for the Bowie Food Pantry. We let the local police use the range free of charge. Get involved in your community in a positive manner as member of the shooting fraturnity.

    David and A.R.Tinker,

    Put me down for a yes on an affordable semi-auto PCP rifle and the Discovery Pistol.


    Lead free pellets to protect the environment??? In my opinon the anti's are playing with the concept of lead free to try an end run aroung our Second Amendment.

    Did you get your Talon SS sorted out? If not, you should also check your top hat and make sure its screws are tight. Mine were loose and gun was shooting patterns for a minute.


    Long range pellet rifle shooting, yes sign me up. Are you working on heavy for caliber with a high SD and BC pellet or bullet? What if anything are you doing with the twist rate of the rifling?


    I loved your quote of Bishop Fulton Sheen. It was the perfect thing to say to Davee1. As kids we used to watch the Bishop's TV show.


    I've saved the best for last. Your explanation of the lobby of your business and urinating there on almost left me in tears what a great way of putting it!!!

    Mr B.

  78. Volvo, and all..

    IF, I bought one of the new cheap compressors, I'd start out under using it… so if it were rated for 3,300 lbs.. I'd only pump things up to 2,500 or 2,800.. (which is fine for most of my guns and more than needed for half of them!)..

    My guess is that in order to create that kind of pressure at a low price, the quality of parts and assembly will make it VERY difficult for the tool to last at the "advertised" pressures..

    I have nothing to base this guess on except 30 years in the construction and wood re-manufacturing business..

    Purely a guess, but I've bought $500 compressors that create under 300 pounds of pressure, that didn't last long making 180 pounds on a part time basis.. so making 3,000 lbs for the same price has me skeptical!!

    Wacky Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  79. Wayne,
    Don't forget volume. Those compressors were producing cfm's at that pressure on a heavy duty cycle, whereas a small one for PCP's would only need cubic inches per minute very intermittently. I think Volvo's right that it would be a must have big seller, although I'm spoiled by my expensive springers, and $500 buys a lot of pellets:).

  80. Vinceb,

    I've got to say no it. You are not a second to Edith. She is so far ahead of the rest of us that she has her own special category befitting her special statis.

    Mr B.

  81. Tiru,

    Have I read a post written by you about mixing ATF and STP about half and half to be used in CO2 guns instead of PelGun Oil? Didn't you say that it works well and that both have aditive that condictions o-rings? Thanks for your reply.

    Mr B.

  82. I must admit to being tremendously curious about this new type of powerplant.

    I know BB chooses his words carefully, so I wonder just how tricky he's being when he says "performance equal to certain centerfire firearms".

    For example, the smallest centerfire cartridge is reportedly the 2.7mm Kolibri, which fires a 3.1 grain bullet at 690 fps.

    There are some weird and obsolete centerfire calibers outclassed by existing airguns, and some that aren't much better.

    I'm quite curious exactly what BB has in mind.

    I wonder if it's some sort of combustion design like the Tippman C3. It should be possible to increase performance drastically by igniting a compressed mixture of fuel and air.

    Has a ratcheting cocking mechanism ever been tried on a spring/gas piston airgun? I don't mean something like an anti-beartrap safety, but rather a mechanism that would allow a spring/gas piston air rifle to be cocked with multiple pulls of a lever or barrel. Something like that could allow for quite a bit of power.

    It also seems like blowback operated air pistols are becoming more popular. I wonder if it's a fad, or if the trend will continue into the future?

    I also wonder if fully automatic airguns will ever become popular. LARCs haven't been produced in years, and it seems like Izh-Baikal is the only manufacturer willing to go there in recent times. Daisy doesn't appear to have been happy about the 2003 being converted, and the Crosman Nightstalker's trigger might suggest they were concerned about conversions. There sure is a lot of airsoft and paintball technology that could be recycled, though.

  83. Anonymous

    The Wiscombe rifles have a ratcheting cocking mechanism and require multiply pumps. They are the most powerful springers out there to my knowledge.


  84. Anonymous,

    Thanks for reminding us about B.B.'s being "choicefull" AKA sometimes devious in his use of words. Too bad that yours wasn't the first or second post in this blog–would have got all our creative brain cells awake and reporting for duty!

    Mr B.

  85. Tiru,

    I have never recommended mixing Automatic Transmission Fluid with anything. You are confused with Whiscombe Honey, which is two parts Hoppes Gun Oil to one part STP Engine Treatment.

    I never recommended using ATF in guns, as far as I can recall. I know some people do it, and that it may even work. But I don't think I recommended it.


  86. The following, posted under my name, was not posted by me: "Hi guys I read/check the blog everyday for a new posts. I have never commented so I don't really know what to expect.
    I love shooting long range with small bore airguns. I would be very interested in a new pellet design. Since it will be good at long range can I assume that it will have a heavy weight(10-14 grains in .177 caliber) and have a high B.C.?"

    I wonder if the blogging engine is malfunctioning, rather than people with the same names posting.

  87. Joe B.,

    It would be understandable if Blogger had some issues that mixed up peoples' names & Blogger IDs, however, it appears that the mixed up IDs are coming from people who do not have Blogger accounts.

    There's an alternative that I've already discussed with Tom…allowing only registered users to post comments. That might make it a bit more inconvenient for some people, but it'll make it a LOT more inconvenient for the person who's stealing IDs.


  88. Hi Edith. Thanks for the reply.

    I'm wondering if the person who posted "Hi guys I read/check the blog everyday etc." is really stealing my id to do so for such an innocuous post–what would he/they gain over just posting anonymously? And so many of them all at once? At first I suspected Wos, but the content and the spelling of the posts don't support that.

    So robbing ids doesn't make sense but then, many things make so little sense to me these days. :->


  89. Joe B.,

    Having moderated our forum for the Airgun Letter, I'm used to people doing seemingly useless, silly things just to be annoying and disruptive. I have a suspicion who this person might be. I've saved his email address and other info for over 10 years. He has occasionally done some things during the past decade that remind me he's still among the living. He's been banned from virtually every airgun forum but one. He's behaving himself on that one because it's his last chance, and he knows it.


  90. looks like there is still alot on the horizon for these guns.Ive got my ruger hawk shooting like a sniper rifle now.really close groups all the way to 30 yrds with the crossman premiers I was recommended. I know its not the best thing to leave a springer cocked for a long time,but ever since I left mine cocked over night it has been even more accurate,maybe lost a little fps but ill trade that for dead on accuracy. was reading your current review of the h&k bb pistol.what would you recommend as a cheap accurate c02 repeater pistol? Im using a single shot co2 pellet pistol to keep the squirrels moving in the tops of the trees now till they get to a good spot for a real shot.a semi auto would rock for this.Im getting 2 to 4 a day now.2 in the morn 1 or 2 in the evening.and they just keep coming,but their is way less trash in the yard now,so its making its impact,lol

  91. anonymous,

    It's Troy isn't it? Your knocking them dead! When you're done there I've got a summer cabin that the red squirrels consider their winter residence. They'll get under the cabin and eat their way in through the floor. Then they'll eat a hole in the side of a dresser and make a nest.

    When you finish there come on down and help me with mine, but I sure cann't help you with the CO2 pistol, sorry.

    Mr B.

    PS Thanks for the $4500 for a new car guys. How about my five kids also?

  92. hey its Troy,im getting them under control quick,starting to leave dead ones at the bases of the trees as well for a few days.some of the dummies jump right over them,lol.then they play the dead control the next 2 days.
    Ive got a few of those red ones in the country,they are huge,bushy tails like a fox

  93. Hi Troy,

    I didn't mention leaving the air hawk cocked because its not recommended. But I left the in-law's new air hawk cocked four times for 1 hour periods spread over several days. I found it smoothed the cocking and shot accuracy. I had it broken in within 100 rounds. Your mileage may vary for other guns.

    I'm glad you've got the accuracy in your gun. To chase the squirrels consider an airsoft gun. They make them in repeater and semi-auto. You can buy bio-degradable BBs and the energy levels are low enough that you don't injure the squirrel. Plus they're available at Academy and Walmart.

    I'm glad you've strived to improve your shot to make each one ethical.


  94. G.,

    One of the basics tenets of proper gun handling is this: Do not point a gun at anything you do not want to destroy. Using a gun, airsoft or otherwise, to teach, discipline or discourage critters violates this tenet.

    I hope you understand Pyramyd Air's stance on this and the logic behind not using a gun for "educating" critters.

    Regarding the cocking of your spring gun. What you've done is weaken the spring. Leaving a spring gun cocked for such extended periods of time often result in lower velocities, canted springs and reduced energy. If you chronographed the gun before doing this, you might want to re-chrony it to determine if it has lost any velocity. The fact that it's easier to cock usually means the spring does not have the resistance it had before leaving it cocked for extended periods. This is generally a sign that the spring has experienced a loss of power.


  95. it isnt really more easy to cock,it just is a little smoother firing.Like I said im sure it has lost some velocity,but that is fine,it has increased accuracy dramatically,it still is pulling one shot kills at up to 30 yrds,thats all I care about.
    I didnt want the bb gun to shoot at the "critter" but at the bark of the tree close to where they are,to get them to move to a better spot for a one shot kill.I have no interest in a airsoft gun,id use the bb gun to plink around with other uses at least

  96. Edith,

    Thank you for your post… I agree 100%… Let me respond to your points in finer detail….

    a) I agree that guns should only be used for killing an animal, not injuring it. But consider airsoft is used to shoot humans every day without permanent injury or death. Rubber bullets are used on humans in a similar way to train them not to do something (also baton rounds, water canons, taser, and so on). I regret offending your readers… Ethical hunting is paramount, never injure an animal, kill or let be. I'm sorry I suggested otherwise with my ambiguous response.

    b) I didn't suggest extended cocking of a gun in my original post (Mag LP8). I later stated doing so is not recommended. I only agreed with Troy that his and my experience matched each other. The gun became smoother and shot more accurately with some aid during break in. All spring guns suffer when cocked for extended periods. Mr BB has stated that oiling the compression chamber requires the gun be cocked for 30-60 minutes afterwards to prevent detonation… An experience I have seen and heard first hand…. So the question I pose: is it okay to cock for 30-60 minutes when oiling every 1000 rounds but not okay when breaking in?

    Responsible use of guns and ethical hunting behaviour is my primary concern. Please re-read all my posts to see I have been preaching just that: shot accuracy, pellet choice, shot placement, and practice. If the animal survives more than 30-60 seconds then you've screwed up, no unecessary suffering!

    Thank you for raising an important set of issues, I hope everyone benefits.


  97. getting them to move in the tree to a better spot for a clean shot is much better than taking a bad one.im not going to sit there for hours waiting on them to stop hiding. the setup shots I get are very accurate and even with 177 cal they are dead pretty quick,much more so now that the spring has been broke in and shots are spot on,with a tree rat the kill zone is a very small area at 25 yrds…for a cheap gun its doing very nicly now

  98. I've been away from the blog this summer, not by choice, but for some health reasons. I'm still kind of weak and hope to be able to get back out shooting soon. So, I come back and what do I find, a PCP pistol! WOW! But now I really am in a conundrum! A PCP pistol with the specs BB mentioned is exactly what I have been looking for. I believe I was the first one to suggest it. ;-0 Oh, I want one! But I promised the wife to take care of some nasty tree and ground squirrels NOW, requiring the Maurader. (It's taken years to get her to say yes!). And season opens in 6 days! Oh, this is hard! But good! I guess I'll wait. The squirrels will be there when the pistol comes!
    The accuracy fits what I need and the 12 foot-pounds is pretty near what I would need. I'd really like both and I have the $ for one or the other (been saving a couple of years). Of course we don't know what the price range will be.
    Will it be a repeater? DAO? I've never shot the 2240, but the bolt looks akward to me. Do folks find it difficult to work?
    Michael in Georgia

  99. The $250 sounds about right. I just might be able to manage both. That would be a happy thing! do you think the Maurader will come out with a plastic stock? that is the only thing that makes me hesitate about it.

    Michael in Georgia

  100. Hmm, I thought the wood would be more expensive. I guess it is ignorance on my part. Since you were shooting at 23 yards, my guess is that Crosman has a pistol scope ready to go. Is that so? Or your eyes so much better than mine? 😉

    Michael in Georgia

  101. Michael,

    Wood is more expensive than plastic on an individual basis, but only after $50,000 for molds has been paid. So you look at sales volume and you plan accordingly. Also, the market for PCPs is for wood stocks. Plastic is viewed as cheap.

    There was a pistol scope on the gun I tested, but it wasn't a Centerpoint. But that's a good idea for them to consider.


  102. For those convicted of Felonies… some States allow you to have firearms after a specific time free of runins with the law. Check it out. Doesn't change the Federal guys outlook but some of the States realize people make mistakes and shouldn't be hounded forever as a result. After 5-10 years free of problems you can go hunting again with your 30/06 again.

      • Sir,

        Thank you for your reply. I understand. I have been reading the blog from the past to the present and thought I would ask since I a new to airgunning. I have also been reading the current articles. I hated to ask on a five year old entry but thought I would give it a shot.

        Wishing you and your family the best for the upcoming holidays.


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