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Sticking to the specs – a discussion on common sense

by B.B. Pelletier

Before I begin today, I want to give you a couple of updates. First, the AirForce Edge. Many shooters around the U.S. have gotten stunning results from their Edge rifles, so I suspect there must be something odd with mine. I’m going to look at the rifle very carefully and see what’s what. I will report the results in a second accuracy test. And, don’t worry, that will not eliminate the special surprise I have planned for you.

Next, the Benjamin Katana. I tested the rifle again, and it wasn’t the scope that caused those wild groups. The rifle is back at Crosman for examination. As soon as it returns, I’ll do another accuracy test, including the two long-range pellets I promised to try in Part 3.

Now, on to today’s report.

My Aunt Linda once told me that common sense isn’t that common. I had never heard that expression before, so I thought she was very wise, but I guess the expression has been around for a long time. The truth of it has been around even longer. And, in my capacity as a gross violator and complete disregarder of common sense, I feel I can talk about the value of sticking to the specifications with some credibility. Because nobody has done more damage than I by ignoring them in the past.

Crosman Pellgunoil
Nothing gets under my skin faster than someone who keeps asking what substitutes exist for Crosman Pellgunoil, after I have told them all I know about it. As veterans of this blog have learned, Pellgunoil is 20-weight non-detergent motor oil–or at least that’s what we thought it was until last week, when a reader suggested something to the contrary. I don’t really care what it is! What I know is this: if you lubricate your CO2 guns, multi-pumps and single-strokes with Pellgunoil, or 20-weight non-detergent motor oil, they won’t have seal problems. Use anything else, and you’re a test pilot.

Being a test pilot means you absolutely cannot radio me for help when you’re in an inverted flat spin with a flamed-out engine over the Rocky Mountains. Or when your new CO2 gun starts leaking after you sprayed it with WD-40, Slick-50 or monosodium glutamate. Use Pellgunoil and I will alert Search and Rescue to look for your beacon, or at least I’ll make sure they name a high-school gym after you. Crosman Pellgunoil.

Nitrogen capsules in place of CO2
When I was in the Army, I was the CBR/NBC officer for my armored cavalry troop. That’s the guy who takes the blame when a gas mask is missing. The CBR/NBC NCO is the guy who does all the work. Anyway, I discovered that the Army makes use of nitrogen capsules for certain equipment in the nuclear, biological, chemical (NBC) world, and, as an airgunner with a new Daisy 200 pistol, I decided to take advantage. Well, nitrogen is a very dry gas, in case you didn’t know. And, while it is fairly inert, it doesn’t like to be confined by o-rings to the same extent that CO2 does. So, to save 25 cents on a CO2 cartridge, I ruined a relatively new $19.95 BB pistol that, up to that point, had been a great shooter. There I was in Indian territory, hostiles all around and me with only my Randall fighting knife…

Using lead balls in guns made to shoot steel BBs
I get this one sometimes from the older blog reports. The guy wants to shoot lead balls in his BB gun because they will increase the striking energy. Well, they will if they come out of the muzzle. And the heck of it is, due to manufacturing tolerances, some of them will. Just enough to keep intrepid shooters trying long enough to jam their guns with certainty. It’s just a matter of time.

And when they ask me, holding their jammed gun in their paws, it’s obvious they don’t know the difference between a 4.4mm ball and a .177 (4.5mm) ball. They just got some “BBs” from a friend and decided to have a go. Okay, here’s the deal. You’ll get away with it more if you use 4.4mm balls. Less with .177 balls. But if you want more power on target, why not just get a pellet gun and be done with it? I know the answer (impecunious youth), but that doesn’t make me responsible for clearing your jammed barrel. “I can’t find a .177 cleaning rod. Will a coathanger do? I can’t find a coathanger, will a thin welding rod do? I can’t find a thin welding rod, can I just take the barrel to my shop class and burn it out with the oxy-acetylene torch?”

The airgunner who buys pellets only at Wal-Mart
“I just spent $700 on a TX200 with a scope and now I can’t get the thing to shoot worth a damn. My Wal-Mart doesn’t carry Crosman Premiers in the cardboard box, so I just bought some of those gold Gamos in the little rockets (Gamo Raptors). Why isn’t my gun shooting like you said it would?”

Well, here’s another little tip for you. Don’t buy a Porsche Turbo Cabriolet and expect it to run it on 87 octane gasohol from a truck stop. If you own something fine, spend a little money on what you feed it.

“Yeah, but I don’t like to shop on the internet. They steal your credit card!”

So, where did you get the TX200?

“Oh, I got it on the Yellow Classified. But I checked the seller out on the BOI (Board of Inquiry–an archive of comments from buyers and sellers). And he said I could just send him a money order for the gun.”

Okay, let me get this straight. You took a thousand-times BIGGER risk by sending actual money through the mail to someone you don’t know, but you don’t like to use credit cards on the internet because they might steal your identity. Is that right?

Well, here is a diet tip for you. You can eat at McDonald’s for every meal if you want, but drink only diet soda and you won’t gain weight.

Calling an air rifle a BB gun
Here’s a sad but common tale.

Bubba No. 1 calls all airguns “BB guns.”

Bubba No. 2 buys a Gamo Big Cat at a discount store. Bubba 1 is with him at the time.

Bubba 1 calls it a BB gun, so Bubba 2 buys Daisy BBs for it.

I never get this complaint on the blog, because neither Bubba 1 nor Bubba 2 will have anything to do with the internet. But I’m in a gun store where I overhear them talking about it. “I thought you were supposed to put the BBs down that hole in back of the barrel (the air transfer port), because when I put them in the barrel, they rolled right out. I put three in there, but I don’t think they came out when I shot. I can’t hear them rattling around anymore (they are embedded in the piston seal), so I don’t know where they went.”

Yeah, he doesn’t know where to put the BBs in a pellet rifle, but I bet he knows which load to use in his nail gun when he’s working with concrete!

A funny aside that makes me cry
Edith just read the specs from a manufacturer on a new repeating pellet gun they’re bringing out. They claim that it comes with a “BB magazine.” A PELLET gun comes with a BB magazine? I’m not making this up, folks! It’s getting stupider and stupider out here!

There is a movie called Adaptation that is weird because as you watch it you realize that the principal characters are writing it as they go. I mean, they’re writing a script in the movie that turns out to be the movie itself. Sort of like that famous Escher print in which two hands on a piece of paper are drawing one another. Now, try to stay with me, ’cause I’m not cracking up or anything. So, here I am in my office writing about people disregarding the specifications (okay, maybe “fundamentals” is a better term) of the airgun sport and while I am, along comes a manufacturer doing the exact thing I’m writing about –WHILE I’M WRITING IT!

What’s wrong here is that, unlike Bubbas 1 and 2, the employees of an airgun company have a responsibility to know something about airguns. And the ones whose job it is to write about the guns their company makes (manuals, ad copy, things that go on the boxes, etc.) should either know what they’re writing about or they should at least check their facts before signing off on their work. Because the next thing you know, some mom in Paramus, New Jersey, is going to buy that airgun, read what’s on the outside of the box and act on it. If she reads that the gun has a BB magazine, she’s going to think that it shoots BBs. BBs are what she’ll buy, and BBs are what she’ll try to help her kid load into it. She has every right in the world not to be amused upon learning that 20-something Cindy, who helped design the box, doesn’t know the difference between a BB and a pellet.

Well, I have to stop writing now. Cowboy Star Dad just asked me if he could use lead balls in his Crosman Shiloh pellet pistol while I was writing the above paragraph about pellets and BBs. I’m afraid that if I write the name Rod Serling, I might wind up on The Twilight Zone–as the Printer’s Devil.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

166 thoughts on “Sticking to the specs – a discussion on common sense”

  1. Well gee whiz pop:)
    Now I guess I shouldn't ask about my ideas
    to (reinvent the wheel when there's
    already a better wheel) use a smooth bore
    brass tube .180 to shoot size BB shot or a
    RF bbl.liner to shoot size F .220 shotgun
    shot.I still think it would be neat to
    build these guns but the accuracy would
    probably suck and the power would be
    laughable.OH WELL
    Thanks again BB for pulling my head out
    of my…uh(out of the clouds):)


    Hope yall are stayin warm

  2. Another rant, I like it!

    BB are you trying to say that words mean something?

    As long as we're substituting words I have one that gets to me. You hear people say they're "cocking a air gun" when they are actually "charging the gun with air" or "pumping air into the gun". The reason I'm so sensitive about this is because "cocking" (the trigger then possibly loading the chamber) and then "pumping" the gun isn't the safest way to operate. Do you see why this can get confusing? Or am I just to hung up on terminology?

    Vanago County 4-H Deadeyes

  3. Caveman,

    You are right on! Here is the problem. This one is real, and it comes from very close to home.

    Salespeople sell a lot of airsoft, but they were trained to incorrectly call it soft air–a term that has now thankfully vanished from the market. So they sell a lot of "soft air."

    So they take to calling pellet guns "hard air." That gets ingrained in their lingo and they start using it with their customers–some of whom are confused, while others internalize it and start using the term themselves. Now we have a growing contingent who don't differentiate between pellet guns and airsoft, except by some terms that are not recognized anywhere outside this microcosm.

    Now–go to the SHOT show and try to have a meaningful conversation with a Russian airgun (pellet gun) manufacturer who is struggling with any words outside ordering his lunch. See what I mean?

    A much more obvious case is the one where Asian airsoft manufacturers decided to call their 6mm (and now 8mm) plastic balls BBs. So now in the United States, the birthplace of the true BB gun, there is an entire generation of people who don't know the difference between real steel BBs and airsoft BBs. They're all just BBs.

    Send that person out to buy a BB gun with ammo and see what comes back!


  4. Jay,

    Regarding your question yesterday about globe front sight interchangeability between Feinwerkbau and Weihrauch–I'm almost 100% positive that the dovetails are not a match and will not interchange.

    Sorry, no good ideas for you except to try Paul Watts.

  5. B.B. and all….

    Many local police reports in the paper…..
    "Joe Blow reports that his window was shot with a "BB pellet".

    Looked all over Pyramyd in case someone came up with something new, but just can't figure out what a "BB pellet" is.


  6. CJr,

    Do you have your scope with the built in level on Ms M and if so buy the level from PA and put it on your Talon SS. Lack of canting might move you up a notch in your target competition.

    I have the scope with the built in level on my Discovery. Works great but cann't justify replacing tha Mini-Swat scope on my Talon SS so am using the B-square level. Not near as handy as the scope with the built in level, but it's ok.

    Mr B.

  7. B.B.,

    God bless you for writing this article. I've bookmarked this for the future.

    Let me ask the question that this article will generate before anyone else does….

    "Mr B.B.,

    So if I read this correctly, MSG can be sutstituted for pellgunoil?"

    Over and out.


  8. Mr. B. and CJr,

    Just got my B-Square level and mounted it last night, and I agree that it is OK. When I checked it for level before mounting it was dead on, but while mounted it contacts the top of the receiver in the middle and thus is not quite dead on level while mounted. I'll need to play with it, but this is something that people need to check for when they use it.


    WV- viabl, as in the B-Square level is a viabl alternative to the internal scope level 🙂

  9. Kevin,

    Yes you read that correctly. MSG is a good substitute for pellgunoil as long as you adhere to B.B.'s foot note which you might have missed but says it's good only when shooting a sweet and sour chicken.

    Mr B.

    PS My favorite scotch used to be whatever you're pouring.

  10. B.B.,

    I've heard from a good but anonymous source that Crosman will be bringing two PCP pistols to market, maybe this month. One is based on the Maraurder with repeating action and shroud while the other is based on the Discovery.

    Have you gotten yours to test yet?

    Mr B.

  11. Well, for all of you that were interested (perhaps no one), I didn't purchase that Crosman Nitro yesterday. And the reason was (ready for this????)

    I couldn't pull the trigger on the purchase.

    You can all groan now. But first, please pass the sweet and sour chicken.


  12. Forgive me, I'm commenting without having read today's post.

    Frank B and Kevin,
    Many years ago I attended a Digital convention in Boston. One of my most memorable experiences. I was the only one from my company there so the Digital rep gave me a personal tour of all the great places in Boston. Love that town.

    I walked all over it and got really bad blisters on my feet. And this was back in the day when I was running 10 miles three times a week. You'd think I'd be immune to blisters by then.

    Anyway, two of those places were the Cheers bar – Bull& Finch (didn't look at all like the TV version) – I quaffed a beer under the picture of the Cheers actors – and a bar who's name I don't remember any more but was the best ever. This bar was under an old building and is the touted the oldest bar in the country. Maybe someone out there can help me remember its name. It even has the original brick walls from back in the "colonial days".

    The rep asked me if I liked Scotch, which I did, and he said he would introduce me to the best Scotch ever. That Scotch was Glenlivet. It's the only one I'll ever drink anymore.


  13. Sorry, still commenting without having read today's post.

    To help you get started on your adventure blog, you can tie your adventures in with airguns by merely stating in the last paragraph of your blog the following: "And then when I sobered up I got interested in airguns. The End" We'll all understand and see the connection.


  14. Fred

    Let me get this straight, you decided to pass on the sweet and sour chicken because the Nitro can't group well shooting MSG and the trigger had to be purchased separately?

  15. Still, not reading it yet. Playing catch up from yesterday.

    "Apparently you never want to show an immigrant how to find free money in the ground, or she will become obsessed."

    Coulda died laughing!!!


  16. BB,
    Enjoyed today's post!

    Interesting…the Army says NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) while the Navy (at least in the 60's) said ABC (atomic/biological/chemical). Hmmm…(A)rmy – NBC, (N)avy – ABC. Do I detect some hidden animosity here? Come on guys it's only a football game.

    Mr B,
    Sad to say, I've been using the level scope on Mr T. during the eMatch. I have platform problems. Can't hold the gun still even on a bench. Now, how bad is that. You should see my offhand standing scores. No, you'll never see those, at least not yet.

    Yes, I remember when he back tracked on that! I was aghast! I had to demote him from God to demigod after that. But in all fairness he's still at the top of the demigod list.


  17. Scott,
    I think Evanix is using the same program to pick names for its guns as blogger uses for its word verification.

    Current WordVfy – moques (can't wait for this gun to hit the market)

  18. Chuck

    What in the heck are you BB and bellringer talking about? We're not talking about Whiscombe honey are we?

    What do you mean by platform problems? Are you talking about the scope on mr T? Do I remember correctly that you had one of those 8-32×56 leapers scopes?

  19. To cowboystardad,please be aware that the Crosman Shiloh has a very big flaw…if you know about it disreguard this.Because the peg that loads the pellet isn't spring loaded to self return,every Shiloh I have had an opportunity to purchase has been ruined…owners attempt to fire them with the loader locking the cylinder from advancing!this strips the cylinder indexing teeth inside the gun.easy to avoid if you know….Frank B

  20. BB,

    If you think the lack of common sense is bad here, you should take a look at the Yahoo Answers Hunting sections sometime… I've seen people ask if steel BBs are .2 gram airsoft BBs, if they can use airsoft BBs in a regular BB gun (or vice versa), if they can use a BB gun for hunting raccoons, etc… Then there are the people with no experience who want to build their own pcps that will be comparable to the Daystate Air Wolf/Air Ranger. Or who want a sub $100 pellet gun for shooting coyotes… Or people who won't read the manual to find out how much oil they should put in a springer.

    What's bad is that not only do the few people on YA who have half a clue about this stuff have to answer these questions we also have to fend off the idiots on YA! who think all airgun questions belong in the toys section.

    And people wonder why I'm cranky sometimes…


  21. Okay, I won't ask if my XS-B9 will shoot lead balls…hahahaha
    I don't know if you are familiar with the gun, but it is a sidelever repeater that uses a clip or magazine that seems similar to the clip in the Beretta Elite II.
    In the photo with the instructions it shows pellets (chinese) that are very cylindrical in shape (as opposed to diablo).
    So what happens is that when you load the clips with any pellets i have onhand, every once and a while the skirt of one pellet will ride into the waist of the preceding pellet and end up canted in the clip. (this is the cause of the occasional misfires I mentioned the other day).
    So my quesetion is…can I use lead rounds…no, no, just kidding!!!
    The real question is…are there any pellets that are cylindrical shaped other than the Skenco's.
    And if not, are the Skenco's any good (I've never had good accuracy from any plastic skirted pellet I've used in the past).
    CowBoyStar Dad

  22. SL,
    Not sure which of my comments your referring to in your first sentence. Do you mean the NBC/ABC military terminology thing? If so let me know and I'll bore you with my explaination. It has nothing to do with oil.

    On my shooting abilities: My "platform" I'm talking about is ME! Mr T is doing his job and the scope is doing its job but I've noticed that even using a bench rest I still have some swaying going on. Keep in mind, that for the eMatch I'm talking about, you can use a rest but only in front and no kind of clamping allowed. I seem to sway too much still. You have 30 minutes to shoot 30 targets that are on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. I know, it sounds easy.

    On the scope: I have a Sun scope with a level built inside that I put on the Talon in place of the Leapers. I dearly wish the Leapers had one. The thinking being that a level would improve my shooting by eliminating any canting. The level scope is doing its job but I'm still not. I am certain that canting is not a problem since installing this scope. Note to self: I think I may get an external level for the Leapers sometime and see if it's as easy to use as this Sun.

    Still, it's a challenge for me to be still. The 10 ring is just barely large enough to contain a .177 pellet so any movement at all results in a 9. There are 30 targets so 30 x 9 = 270. I hope to surpass this soon. A perfect score is 30 x 10 = 300. The Anchutz guy shot a 285, I shot a 269. That means he got at least fifteen 10s, the rest nines. I got a couple 10s but managed to screw those up with three eights. In this match you only need to touch the 8 ring to get an 8. The space between rings is barely enough to fit a pellet. Even so, there is no excuse for me to hit the 8 ring, yet I do. I know I can shoot better than that and I know Mr T does too. We just need to stay on the same page for 30 minutes.


  23. J.,

    Now you feel my pain. I have been trying for 16 years to clear up the hobby of as much muck as I could, but I haven't gotten very far. I have managed to get the artillery hold to catch on, and maybe a couple other small things, but the idiocy is too great to overcome. It envelopes you and before long you are just a food morsel inside the all-encompassing blob.

    We look at all the product reviews for Pyramyd AIR and when somebody says something like they killed a squirrel with a BB gun, you can bet that review doesn't get passed through to the website. But when we are dead and gone, I don't know what is going to happen.

    I know it isn't life-saving that we are doing, but it pains me to watch the rapid decomposition of life from the dumbing-down of the language. Huxley said it would happen this way, and darned if he wasn't right.


  24. CSD,

    There is a .20-caliber "cylindrical" pellet branded Benjamin (I'm fighting back a scream now, because .20 caliber is what DE-frigging-FINES a Sheridan!). They aren't really cylindrical, but rather spool-shaped. But as they only exist in .20 caliber, I doubt they are of any interest to you.


  25. B.B.

    This reminds me of one of my favorite lines from George Orwell's 1984: "In politics or literature, 2+2 can make 5, but in building a gun or an airplane, they have to make 4." Well, no argument from me about following the directions. And I've given up on getting reliable info from gun stores. I called the gun store which sold me the 5.56 for .223 and told them as a safety issue that they should make sure all of their employees know that the two are not interchangeable since they can't count on everyone researching the internet like I did. The guy who answered, who was the very fellow who sold me the 5.56, said that they knew all about the difference and went into an explanation of how the 5.56 had a thicker case, higher pressures and so on. So, I asked, why did I get 5.56 when I explicitly asked for .223? Hm, gee, well…. It amounted to a case of CYA as far as I could tell.

    Stunning results for the Air Force Edge, eh? I cannot wait to hear more. I don't believe you mentioned in your report the model of 10m rifle that Air Arms introduced to start the trend. Was it the S200?

    Frank B., is it possible to sharpen a recurve blade? By the way, I have made improvements with your suggestions but am still not shaving hair. I've thought about a marketing solution to the problem. I could advertise blades that produce a pleasant scratching sensation when dragged across the arm with absolutely no chance at all of drawing blood or causing any injury whatsoever.


  26. Chuck:

    If it helps your feelings any, I've been trying the e-competition with my Daisy 953 and a really cheap Tasco 4X scope, and the best I can do so far is a couple of 268s.

    Those rings are tiny, and my gun will produce 10s only when it and I are in complete synch, which is not often enough.

    I don't think we can really compete with an Anschutz can we?

    I'm accustomed to the NRA system of "forward" scoring, in which, if you touch or break the next highest scoring ring, you get that value, so this exacting scoring seems backward to me.

  27. Cjr.,

    I have noticed the same problem early on when I was testing pellets on various rifles to see which one was favored by the rifle. I was able to eliminate my body swaying by indulging in 2 Beefeater's martinis.

    Only joking of course. I don't mix alcohol with any type of arm – firearm, pellet or BB. However, by using a chair with a back or leaning up against something solid with my back, I am able to eliminate that body sway problem.


  28. BB

    Great Blog today.

    The Pellgun Oil story tells it all. I think we have all seen countless forum threads about "how do I make my own Pellgun oil? blah-blah-blah"

    Crosman oil works, always has for as long as I can recall. It is BY FAR the cheapest investment anyone can make in maintaining an airgun.

    On the other hand… maybe 3 gram plastic pellets and homemade oil will get my HW97K up to 3300 fps velocity so I can kill wild hogs at 100 yards!

    Brian in Idaho

  29. Matt61,First off,Welcome back you were missed!Happy New Year!I hope your vacation was everything a travel agent could promise.Yes,any edge can be razor sharpened with the right equipment and technique…even the fanciest serrations on a half and half blade.I referred you before vacation to a tutorial on E-blade that is very comprehensive/better than I could type for you.some steel can really fight you though!experiment with the blade I gave you,I chose it because of the steel.Keep me posted,call or whatever.I'll re-email my phone#…Frank B

  30. BB, I bought my son a Red Ryder for Christmas. The gun shoots fine right out of the box. I notice a lot of guys are opening them up and doing lubes etc. on their Red's and Model 25. I was wondering, that since the gun has such a light spring and compression chamber, if this was really necessary.
    By the way, what is the best oil for normal maintence on these guns?


  31. JWB,

    I doubt anybody is opening the current Red Ryder up for a tune. They must be talking about vintage gun that already need other maintenance.

    They shouldn't be looking for higher velocity. That's futile, since it's just a BB gun. Higher velocity hives you nothing.

    Any regular household oil like Three-in-One will work fine.


  32. B.B

    Found myself in the local sporting goods store yesterday. I made my way to the airgun section, and at first I wanted to laugh, but then I wanted to cry the sales guy was so bad. Every time I think our sport is becoming mainstream, well not so much….
    When I have time I share the whole experience.

  33. Glad I read your column today, BB, it kept me from asking a stupid question and I'm still amused by it.

    I prefer pellet- over bb-shooting airguns in almost all regards, but some of the sub-$100 firearm replica bb repeater pistols look like fun. Except I hate steel bb's bouncing all over the place.

    So, in my musings about this, I figured there must be some kind of lead ball (like H&N rund-kugeln) that could be substituted for the steel bb's to avoid ricochets. Hadn't gotten around to looking into this (and I should have known better), but now I don't need to.


  34. B.B. and Chuck,

    At the moment, it's CBRNE, but don't blink…there's nothing the military likes more than another new acronym.

    I happened to be in Wallyworld this afternoon and found myself in the BB Gun section. Funny – they don't seem to carry Pellgun oil, though they carry several CO2 pistols. No wonder people look for substitutes.


    I'm going to spread out the application according to your schedule. Ought to get 6-8 coats a week. I'm working in the basement in the same room as the furnace, which has been burning wood non-stop for 3+ weeks (high of 16 today), and the RH is still 25% in the house. Should be great conditions for curing the finish.

    Thanks All for the info on front sights. I should have one on the way, and I'll wait to see how I like it before I track down another. I've been watching the Yellow forum – they move quickly there – last set was gone in 10min, at 5am!


  35. AZBrian,

    I said there are no stupid questions and I still mean it. It's when I answer a person and he doesn't like the answer, so he asks again, and again, and again…

    It wears me out.

    And you CAN shoot round lead balls in some BB guns. Remember yesterday's post about the wire stock Daisy? I mentioned the progression of the BB in the beginning. I have a couple BB guns that pre-date the use of steel, and in them I use 4.4mm round lead balls. They are 0.174" in diameter and these guns were made for 0.175" in diameter, but it's a close as I can come today.

    I also shoot round lead balls in any BB gun that has a rifled barrel. The Russians from Ishmash tried to give me grief about it, but I know they are using .177 rifled barrels in those guns because that's what they have on hand.

    So, there you go!


  36. Alan

    That explains it, I think. Thanks.


    A few more questions if you don't mind. I am guessing that Ms. M is in .22 and that is why she doesn't get entered in the ematches? The Leapers you mentioned, is it the 8-32×56? How does it compare to the Sun scope? Which one would you recommend?

  37. AZBrian,

    I measured some round lead balls and found the following:

    Crosman Premier Lead BB's run from 0.1710"–0.1725"

    Gamo Lead Balls are 0.1750"–0.1765"

    Beeman Perfect Rounds were the biggest at 0.1760"–0.1775"

    The Beeman are the best fit for use in a .177 call pellet gun.

    The Crosman seem small enough for any BB gun while the Gamos will work in some, but not all BB guns. They may jam in the feed mechanism or the barrel of SOME guns. The Beemans will not work in any BB guns and are pretty much guaranteed to jam.

    The numbers are what they are due to the lead balls not being true spheres.

  38. Frank B.

    Yes, I remember the web address for the tutorial and will get there as soon as I get caught up with things. Great news about the recurve blades. Thanks.


  39. 268 scorer,
    Thank you kindly, my feelings are assuaged 🙂

    The scoring is backwards, isn't it? But, I think, since were allowed to use a benchrest for these matches and only shooting 10meters, they put the score ring constraint on to keep it challenging.

    Mr T is indeed a .177 Talon SS on CO2.

    I'm still working on that swaying thing but I don't want to do anything that might disqualify me. The whole system is based on the honor system so I have to watch out for my conscience (which is constantly in a struggle anyway).

    My Leaper scope has 1" tube.

    I'll bet 99.999% of the people (that leaves only you) buying CO2 guns at Wally's don't even think about oiling.

    Yes, Ms M is .22 so she's disqualified. Yet, even though .22 is larger than the .177 (thank you Mr. Obvious) thus at a disadvantage, I'll bet I could consistently get all 9's with her and I might get a lucky 10 once in a while, although that would have to be very lucky.

    Also, Alan, IMHO, the Leapers is better opticswise than the Sun but the better optics at 10m doesn't offset the benefit of the inside scope level. The Leapers is 4-16×50, the Sun is 3-12×40. Not really a fair comparison, I guess.


  40. Slinging Lead,
    At the risk of opening old wounds go here (don't get mad at me – BB is the one who published it – and earned a lot of respect, I might add):

    "And now the rest of the story"


  41. Nice report, B.B. Or should I call it a rant? Don`t be discouraged, airguners ARE getting smarter about their guns, thanks to this blog. I know, i am one of them.
    Not all that long ago i was asking if I could shoot airsoft bbpelletbullets in my Daisy 15XT
    CO2 pistol.
    WV. subgoun(anybod going to make one?)oops! mispelled it! LOL!


  42. CJr,

    I don't know how you're benching your gun, but here's what works for me shooting the SS.

    The front of it is rested on 5-6"s of stiff foam which has the right hand grip about an inch or so off the bench. I lean fwd, resting my weight on the edge of the bench. I rest my right elbow on the bench, making triangle ABC with A being my hand, B is elbow on bench and C is stock on right shoulder.

    My left hand is placed under the "butt" of the CO2 tank while my left elbow is on the bench making another triangle.

    Elevation in controlled by raising or lowering the butt with the left hand.

    Notice nothing was said about pulling the SS into my shoulder. For me a very relaxed hold seems to work the best. I don't have to worry about any recoil giving me the dreaded 1/2 moon above my right eye.

    Please let me know if this makes any sense.

    Mr B.

    PS I don't have but a Diana Model 35 in .177 which isn't competative with what you all are shooting. Maybe another barrel is needed for the SS.

  43. Wacky Wayne,

    Hello there. I just did a google earth with Ashland, OR being the destination. Satelite picture was taken August of 08. I saw some guy sitting in a weird chair shooting a gun of some sort.:) Who could it have been?

    Mr B.

  44. Chuck

    Now that explains everything. Thanks for the link and the specifics on the scopes.

    Now that Frank B is buying a USFT, you may have some stiff competition soon. Good work and good luck in future matches.

  45. PA will be selling three new Urmarax CO2 pistols in like half a year. Havent seen them listing products so early before. Just a way of torturing us I guss… The mp7 one lookes realy cool with the blowbach and all… I also like the g17 one.


  46. BB wrote…

    "In the Army I joined in June of 1970, the section was called chemical, biological, radiological (CBR). I don't know why it changed to NBC, except that somebody in NATO was playing games and wanted to shake us up."

    As it turns out I make my living in that world.

    CBR refers to chem, bio, and radiological, where radiological weapons spread radioactive stuff around the landscape (the slang word is now "dirty bombs").

    NBC means Nuclear, Biological and Chemical. Bio and Chem mean biological agents (eg anthrax) and chemical weapons such as Sarin. Nuclear means just that, nuclear weapons such as that dropped on Hiroshima. Radiological weapons are omitted.

    CBRNE (pronounced sib-ER-nee) is an example of acronym creep. The "E" is for explosives (as in TNT). It was a way for certain DOD agencies to expand their turf. (I'm a cynic at heart).


  47. I know what you mean. When I was young………long ago………..I sold guns. I don't know how many times someone came it to buy a "Deer" Rifle. They were new to all this so they brought a "friend"
    along to help that "Knew Everything about Rifles". Of course, they told you they "Knew Everything". As you can guess, they knew almost nothing and worse, didn't know it.

    It just makes you shake your head.


  48. SL,

    I hope you read all the comments, also. Some are very educational and some are a very good example of why today's post exists.

    BB says: "Use Pellgun oil on…
    Don't use Pellgun oil on"

    Then for the rest of the day he gets:

    "BB, is it ok to use Pellgun oil on my…." and multiply that by 20.


  49. B.B.–Scott298–it's sad but true that you have 2type of pellett gun manafactures. Those with deep pockets that spend more on markting than research-they have to get their money back and those that build quality air rifles that spend money on technology instead of advertising. The 1st is not really worried what the gun can do but how many guns they can sell-then what extra's they can add on -for you to spend extra money on-to try to justify their original claim! On manafacture no. 2 they invest in research and come out with a great gun-at a higher cost-which is justified- because most of there advertising is word of mouth or on a REALLY GOOD BLOG! yOU WILL NOT FIND AIR ARMS IN WALMART and I hope you never do because the corporate giants will change it into something else and it will never be the same. Now lets get to those blogs-most are great but nothing irks me more than when someone buys something sub-par then tells everyone one a blog the benefits-high power accuracy of there brand new $150 clerance gun they got at the big box store. Now 1st time buyers will go for this because they said gun brand x is great-(when the real reason they are imbarrased about what they bought and the it's rhe only way they sleep at night) the harm is when the 1st time buyer reads one of these-does not do his homework and buys the same gun and low and behold justify's why he bought because so and so on a blog said it would work great! The real guns will still be made, srill be costly but the real air gunner wont mind-sure the pince will hurt-but when he writes his blog he'll sleep well at night. This ws not a question – just something that follows common sence? And while we are at it I wish you would scope a Diana 350 magnum in .177, shoot 10gr + pellets thru it, then come back and tell me it's and I quote – a corvette with a 6 cylinder engine! "Dad I love ya but that statement has haunted me for some time and I hope I can change your mind. Scott298 getting off his sope box.

  50. I was in the local gun shop today and the conversation of the day was on pellet rifles. This guy had bought a Remington Genesis and hates it because He cant get it to group at all.
    I have a Genesis that I had some problems with until I PA and this blog, so I decided to get in on the conversation. I asked him what pellet he was shooting and he said it was gold and it would shoot about 1300fps out of his gun. I explained to him that it was a Gamo Raptor and then about the short comings of that pellet, and some of the characteristics of the rifle. The shop carries a full line of RWS pellets, so I made a few suggestions based on my experiences with my Genesis. He's going shooting on Sunday, so I'm hoping he'll have a better experience. I hope he visits this blog so he can learn more about the sport, I know I have learned allot since I started coming here.

  51. Nice rant BB!

    Now when are you going to admit that Pellgun oil is really red tail light fluid? Yes, the very same stuff you buy and Checkers when your tail lights are fading to white. Now git yourself a gallon or 2 and don't forget, "more is better" so fill that gun clean up to the muzzle and just shake out the extra. That should keep you shootin' good for a couple of days….


    WV sessetag… New kids game?
    2nd try atins… atins of pellets?

  52. BB,

    Thanks for letting me know about the trigger on the HW90. It's an "Elite" and appears that some love it and some hate it. Mine feels pretty nice now that it's adjusted. I searched it out and found this:


    Which I think explains my problems. Almost at the bottom of the page explains how to put the trigger guard back on. I'll have time this weekend to sort it out.

  53. Fred-Scott 298-inadvertantly you have give me a great tip-while target shooting from a bench I have noticed the "body sway" especially looking 25 yards away thru my scope-you may very well of taken care of my biggest problem with constantly getting groups under a 1/2 inch. Thanks, Scott298. B.B.—-new blog?

  54. Hello. I'm wondering if anybody has had any experience with Tech Force guns. I know they are a Chinese-made gun, but I'm interested in purchasing a Tech Force 79T due to its relatively low price. Has anybody here purchased this gun or other Tech Force guns? Would you recommend them?



  55. Jbomb,

    I bought a TF99 (same as Qb36 2) a few years ago. It took a ton of work to get mine to shoot well. Athough after making a teflon piston head and viton seal, changing to a die spring, building a steel spring guide with thrust washers, straightening the receiver, re-crowning the barrel, stoning the trigger, and scoping it with a Leapers 5th gen 3×9- 40 scope, I have a nice shooting, pretty accurate, but rather large, .22 underlever spring gun. I came to the conclusion that for the time invested, I could have bought an RWS Diana 54 or a TX200. What I have, I like. But make no mistake, it took a lot to get it there…

    I've read where some guys have had good luck with their TF guns, but I wouldn't do it again. Here's a link to my initial review of the gun and the company. It's by "Shooter":


    That's my side of the story, others may have different experiences and their quality may have come up in the last 2 years, but I can't say that one way or the other. Hope it helps.


  56. Derrick38,

    I will leave the sporting goods store nameless to protect the not so innocent.

    I had a little time to kill, so I stopped by, as I am known to do from time to time. I am not there to make any major purchases, mostly just hoping to catch a glance of the latest and greatest. I enjoy it as much as the occasional bucket of KFC.

    Now this usually means not taking any of a salespersons time and normally I would also avoid the air gun section, but I see they have an RWS Schutze in the rack for $169.00. One of the great challenges in air gunning is to actually hold an airgun without having to purchase it first, so this is an opportunity I cannot resist.

    I ask to see the rifle, but I am told I will need to speak with the department person, separate from the gun counter folks. Ah a specialist, apparently he covers airsoft and knifes too.
    I study the little Diana and like the size and heft, but the cut in the forearm is mammoth and it also has no holes for a scope mount pin. My thoughts are quickly interrupted however by my salesman, “here try his one.” It’s a Gamo Whisper; I have looked at them before and have no interest. Then a barrage of many more Gamo’s and also a Daisy.

    Since he appears to love to show rifles I ask to see an R-7, the only Beeman they have.
    He stops dead in his tracks and wants to know why. Now, rather than explain I want to see the current stamped checkering, I just say I have heard of them.
    This puts him in a teaching mode and the horror begins. “Look all these guns shoot at 1000 fps, why would you want to pay more?” I guess their Diana 24, R-7, and Daisy’s are on the hot side. “all you pay for on the Beeman is the wood” That’s it I ask? “Sure, same as the RWS.” Really? “Yeah, they all just shoot a pellet at a 1000 fps” Hmmn, seeing my doubt he reaches deep into the depths of his expertise, and offers that “the Beemans does have a little better trigger” than the $99.00 Daisy. And on and on it went.

    The morale of the story: learn about airguns here, not on the street.


  57. I'm looking for a new air gun after i have been shooting my daisy 880 for about a year now. Im only 14 but im pretty strong. I love the npss from crosman because i like the power and accuracy, its also the best deal around. The only thing that would turn me away is the cocking effort or (for the commenter below) the amount of effort needed to fill the gun with
    air. How much? I can not find any specs on the web about the exact amount of effort needed to cock the gun. It's quite expensive so i want to be sure i will be able to use it, i've read about it being very particular about the way its held but i need to learn the artillary hold some how and even though its not required ive been practicing with my 880. I love to shoot and my favorite challenge is shooting targets like cans,shotgun shells,and,paper targets at around 35 yards. Please tell me your thoughts

    thank you, Andrew

  58. Andrew,

    If you are O.K. with 22 cal. and like 12fpe the Crosman legasy just might be the gun for you. That is, if B.B. can get Crosman to make it avaliable in the US. They say it has olny 16Lbs. cocking efort and being a Crosman it`s probly acurate. However, I`m no older than you and have shot a limited number of airguns so I`m not the most reliablr source.


  59. Crosman Pellgun oil, gotta jump in here.

    No, I don’t have a cheaper alternative to offer, but the crazy idea that Crosman includes it with CO2 and Pneumatic rifles. Maybe then people will understand and use it, then buy more. A ½ size tube can’t cost more than a few cents and could inspire the masses that have no idea about it.

    Not to mention higher satisfaction less warranty repairs to the products.


  60. Jbomb, most of the TF series rifles are made by Shanghai of China, and they do indeed have a generally poor reputation. Some of the newer ones, like the TF89, are certainly better… but the old standby's (like the TF97, TF99, and a bunch of others) are indeed suspect.

    That being said, the TF79 is a CO2 gun and is something of a different kettle of fish. That series of gun (also sold elsewhere as the QB78 and QB79) is generally known to be higher quality, is very popular, and there's a ton of aftermarket/customization parts for it. If you want a CO2 gun, that doesn't seem to be a bad choice at all. Just shop around for the best price.

  61. Volvo,
    Your guy at the gun store sounds like the guy at my local store that handed me a Stoeger X50 like it was the Holly Grail of air guns!
    I didn't buy it. Bought a TX200 instead. Think I maid the right decision?

  62. Volvo,

    Yep. Same place. Probably the same guy told me several weeks ago that the stock on the R7 is walnut — trying to justifying the "high" price. Not that I'd asked. He told me it shot weak compared to the Gamos. Guess it's been gaining velocity since I was there.

    I get my CO2 tanks filled there for my Crosman Bulk fill guns. Joy.

  63. Scott,

    I think you made a terrible mistake. Every airgun you now purchase will have to be the equal or better of the TX. What a horrifically expensive mistake. If I could only go back in time, I'd never have bought anything better than a Marksman 1010 and a couple packs of felt darts. Good luck.

  64. Joshua,

    I have no idea how much energy is lost through a 0.006" cylinder gap on a .357 Magnum revolver. What I do know is that it is impossible to silence a revolver, like they sometimes show in old movies. Nobody uses a silencer on a revolver unless they only want to lower the overall report but not silence it. So some amount of energy is lost through the cylinder gap.

    One experiment that could show empirically how much energy is lost would be to test the average velocities of a revolver like you mentioned against a single-shot pistol with a barrel of the same length as the revolver barrel, plus the length of the revolver cylinder. You would get a result close to the real number, but not exact because no cartridge ever repeats exactly the performance of another, except by chance.

    I'm sure that is a great problem for a physics class.


  65. Andrew,

    When you cock a breakbarrel spring piston gun, you are not "filling the gun with air" except in the ambient sense of the term. A spring piston gun generates its energy by the piston thrusting forward violently, compressing the ambient air in front of it. If there is a pellet in the breech, it seals the air in front of the piston, allowing it to compress air to the point at which the pellet cannot contain it any longer. The pellet is then blown forward by the compressed air, much like a champaign cork.


  66. Chuck:

    I finally realized I was not getting to shoot at our unheated country indoor range any time soon (the lane is drifted shut and it's 8 below this a.m.), so I took one of my good scopes off of a .22 target rifle and put it on my Daisy 953.

    Because the scope has an adjustable objective, it will focus down to 10 meters.

    I can see the e-competition target in 9 power now, but it is yet to be proved if this will help my scoring.

    As to sway, I've been using what I think is the standard hold and body set up for precise shooting from a bench: the forestock restsg on an elevated sandbag (I'm tall), with the butt of the gun in the pocket of my shoulder and my right hand in firing position and my right elbow down on a side bench. Then, I put my left elbow down on the bench and curl my left hand back to take hold of the end of the butt stock, wrapping my hand around the butt and pulling back slightly into my shoulder.

    This should lock up your upper body and stabilize against sway. the right hand makes the gross movements to get on target and the left hand makes the final, small adjustments while you breathe and then squeeze.

    Guys shooting high-power rifles can't wrap their left hands around the end of the butt (obviously!) but they still take hold of the back of the stock to do the final settling in on the target.

    The trouble I have with this and most other shooting postures is the jump induced by heart pulse. The front sight or the cross hairs seem to jump so much that I'm usually amazed I've hit anything at long distance, but it's just part of shooting in competitions such as NRA 100-yard smallbore.

    268 Shooter

  67. /Dave,

    Although I've never owned a TF99/QB 36 2 I wanted to thank you for relating your experiences and the link to your review.

    Although I'm not very impressed with the gun I'm very impressed with your tenacity. A lesser airgunner, like me, would have given up on that gun.

    Hope you stick around and offer more of your insights and experiences with airguns. It's owners like you that are willing to share their expertise that keep me checking back here.


  68. Volvo,

    I think I know the airgun salesman you're talking about. He doesn't work at that location full time.

    I'm convinced that he must have been given additional in-store airgun training. I'm also certain that because of his now elevated knowledge with airguns, he is known by sight as THE GO TO GUY FOR AIRGUNS and as such is flown to other retailers in the Country to share his knowledge with their customers.

    I believe this because I think I met him at a VERY large, nationally known retail store that sells everything imaginable you can use outdoors and many things that can only be used indoors.

    At this store the airguns aren't behind the counter but are instead displayed on a rack with the guns secured to this rack with a wire about 36" long. A few beemans, crosmans, rws and lots of gamo's.

    I had an rws 34 in my hands for the first time and a voice over my shoulder asked if I needed any help. I muttered something like I was looking for a powerful pellet gun that wasn't too heavy and was accurate. He immediately pulled a gamo off the rack and beamed when he said this is our most powerful. He proceeded to cock it, point it at the floor and pulled the trigger. He smiled ear to ear and waited for some sign from me that would acknowledge my amazement at the loud report.

    When the uncomfortable silence got to be too much for him he said, "This one's only been on the rack for about a month and I can already feel it breaking in. The barrel is getting much easier to cock."

    Not being certain if the spring was broken in two places or three I turned and left.

    I couldn't agree with you more. This is the place to learn about airguns.


  69. Mrs Gaylord,

    Q: Why are zero scores in tennis called 'love'?

    A: In France, where tennis first became popular, a big, round zero on scoreboard looked like an egg and was called 'l'oeuf,' which is French for 'egg.' When tennis was introduced in the U.S., Americans pronounced it 'love.'

    Don't know if it's true but received it from a reliable source.


  70. Volvo, Kevin, and Derrick,

    I know that you are talking about a specific store/chain, and a specific salesperson. And I also know that I have never been in that particular store or dealt with that specific salesperson. But sadly, I have encountered the same thing many times in many stores.

    Based on what I have learned about springers from this site, I now would never buy a springer from one of these stores – we just can't trust how they may have treated the guns, and you never can be assured that a box wasn't opened before. PA will be my only source.


  71. The only good fortune I've ever had from a big box store pertaining to airguns:I was in the one that starts with a "w".In the case that only they have access to,I saw a pistol [years ago]I hadn't seen anywhere else.I asked to see it,and was told it was broken…I still asked to see it.Like I said,It was new to me.The man resisted repeatedly,saying it was broken.I ended up buying it for 7$…Took it home,it worked flawlessly!My first Marksman 2004,and it still works like new today!!!

  72. 268 Shooter,
    Thanks for that tip. Pretty similar to Mr B's technique. However, your technique, if I understand it correctly, results in the back of your hand being up against your shoulder rather than the butt of the stock. The stock is up against your palm and the back of your hand is against your shoulder. Is this correct? Whereas, in Mr B's case, if I understood him correctly, your hand is under the stock, back near the butt, with the butt lightly against your shoulder.

    One of these aught to work for me. The deciding factor will be how well that back hand can hold the round 12 oz CO2 cylinder, which is actually the butt. It is rather ungainly, you might say.

    Ha! WV = wealesi (as in we'll see)


  73. I have a friend who wants to buy a A new Springfield Armory 45 Long Slide. The store he is dealing with is having a hard time getting any in and says it's because the guns are in limited production.

    First off, does anyone know if is this really true and if so why would they be limited?


  74. CJr, Mr. B, and 268 Shooter,

    I have been following your threads with interest, as I suffer the same affliction 😉

    I plan to work on planting the elbows more, based on what I have read, but I'll probably do so using small towels or gel pads to ease the strain.

    I offer a vairation on the off hand that has been working well for me lately. I place the heel of my hand onto my upper chest below the butt, curl the fingers into a semi-fist and work them into my chest under my arm, and place the bottom of the butt into the "V" that results ftom my thumb and forefinger. I then finely adjust elevation by sqeezing in or out with the thumb and forefinger raising or lowering the butt. That lets the stock be loose to my shoulder and slide along the thumb and finger of my offhand as it recoils.

    I don't know how well that will work with a CO2 bottle, but it seems to work well and be stable with a normal stock.


  75. Alan,

    Volvo and I are talking about a non-chain store and probably the same tall sales guy. We're about 15 minutes away from each other. Kevin, I think, lives about 10 states away from us and we think the sales guy has a twin.

    I think the moral is to never buy an open box springer from a box store or even most mom and pops unless they truly know airguns.

  76. Hey,
    Does anybody know anything about the walther force 1000 springer? The only store that sells it is one of those big outdoor retalers. However, the one I want to know about was purchased in an unopened box. Whew! I`m interested to know if anyone has any pellet sugestions or knows about the acuacy hold sensitivity ect.


  77. Ryan,
    I shot the 490 today briefly, as it was warm but flurrying a bit. At 25-30 FEET, 3 RWS Diabolo Basics went through one side of the steel can (14.5oz steel food tin) and dented the opposite, leaving a torn dent, through which 1 or two may have possibly exited; one bounced back and stayed in the can. At ~10 feet, it was much the same, so I didn't bother doing much more. Try your 490 with the Basics (which you said you ordered) — they are a good fit and seem to harness the awesome power of the 490 as well or better than any other pellet I've tried. Let me know how it works. My 490 has several thousand shots through it, so the seal may be well seated and putting out a little more power, but I think you should be able to pierce one side of the can easily a great majority of the time.

    Note to others: I think it is silly to try to extract much power from a fine little rifle like the 490, but Ryan's does seem a little anemic from his descriptions, so we're trying to get an idea of how it is functioning w/o chrony's on either side:). If anyone else has a Hammerli 490, please try the same experiment.

  78. OK, I'm coming to you guys with another problem!
    I have a Beeman P1 that I bought in '98 and shot maybee 1000 times. Probably closer to 750 or so. Always shot it on the lower power because just shot targets and didn't need the extra power. Last week I found a local gun club that shoots silhouettes on Monday nights and decided to go. Went to my basement to see where it shoots at the different distances and decided that the higher power would be benificial for a flatter trajectory and a little more nock down power. Gave it two drops of chamber oil since it was 12 years old and hadn't been fired. Shot it that night and all was well.
    Went to the basement this morning to shoot some bullseye and wanted to sight it in and continued to shoot on high power. I was very dissapointed in the accuracy compared to what it used to be. When I got the gun out of the case I realized that I had left the Tasco red dot scope on and decided to put new batteries in hopeing that was part of the problem. No such luck. The groups are strung vertically so I was thinking velocity problem. Looked in the blog about P1's and read B.B. had one he shot on low power and was told to dry fire on high power twice and then only shoot on high power. Did that, maybee a little improvement.
    Spring looked dry and a little "gunky" so I gave it a few drops of spring oil. Nothing.
    I was wondering if the extra recoil could have wrecked the high dollar(joking) Tasco scope?
    Also I am shooting Miesterkugelen pistol pellets from twelve years ago also but they show no signs of any oxidation. Tried some new Miesterkugelen rifle pellets and grouped worse. (If you remember a while back I asked B.B. about shooting them in my TX200 and he said the Tx was too fast for them. So I bought the Walther LG90 to shoot them in. Couldn't let two tins of pellets go to waste right?)
    Any ideas?

  79. Kevin,

    Thanks. I wonder if it's tenacity I have or just plain "the other '-ity' that begins with stupid". Throw enough time and money at almost any project and it'll shine. At any rate, I don't that I have any expertise to share, but once in a while I open my mouth, or keyboard and words runneth out…. Keep smiling!


  80. Scott,first off,I would pull the scope and try to group open sights.P1's like to be shot on high power.keep in mind that you may be detonating the oil…that can easily cause wild fluctuations{AKA vertical stringing}.So Shoot it plenty to get past the detonations!

  81. If it is the velocity changing wildly,a more distant larger blank target will show it without a chrony.Mark a spot at a high point in the center of the target.shoot 20 shots from a reasonably longer distance,aiming only at that one height.The results should tell you alot.I would get the oil burned out by shooting first….the seal is teflon. my .02 cents

  82. Frank,
    When I fired it without a pellet in it it definately detonated. Been shooting it a little more and it is coming around a little. Gotta take the kids to a birthday party and one to get pizza but will shoot some more tonight and see how it does.

  83. Scott,when you get back in…the other thing you might want to take a look at is your grip.Why?because you have to apreciate that the behavior of the P1 on high power WILL invariably be an exaggerated version of low power…the piston travels that much further,with that much more force,in about the same amount of time,maybe even a little quicker.Reread BB's description of the Ideal P1 handgrip and compare to what worked on low power,then experiment.P1's a pistol well worth the effort.Once you sort it out,post it for the next guy!

  84. Scott298 – you're welcome.

    By the way, I own an RWS 350 in .177 and I find it the hardest rifle I own to shoot accurately. I can only describe the recoil as ferocious.

    Andrew, I have been looking at the Crosman Nitro and it has a lot to offer – very quiet, adjustable trigger, gas strut or spring technology and good accuracy. The rifle was reviewed on this blog a while ago. If you look to the right of the blog, you'll see a search box. Use it to find the review. However, the cocking effort varies from 30 to 38 lbs depending on how fast you try to cock it. Given your age and unknown physical development, you may find this a struggle – only you will know.

    There are other spring piston rifles available with a lower cocking effort and are even a bit cheaper. Again, use the search box to find those and read the Blog and rifle reviews on Pyramyd Air's website. As you're 14, your parent will have to order it.

    But, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask. We'll all try to help you out.

    Fred – PRNJ

  85. Bud, the Walther Force 1000 is an AR1000 variant. All comments you'll find about the AR1000, TF89, Hammerli Titan, and Beeman SS1000 (w. adjustable trigger) would also apply, since all are basically the same gun.

    It's a largish, powerful breakbarrel with a good trigger (a VERY good trigger if you wanna do a little work). Workmanship isn't up to RWS/Diana standards, but generally it's pretty good for a Chinese gun.

    I generally get good results with Premiers in mine. Hold sensitive? Somewhat, but certainly not excessive.

  86. I once heard a salesman at a high-end outdoors store recommend a .177airgun because "the .22's were going out of style".

    Ryan – Are you shooting at a soda can? You and BG may need to standardize your experiment. My 490 will go through the front of a soda can at 20 yards.

    BB – Speaking of pellgunoil and airsoft BBs – My cousin (who is a very smart guy, has owned firearms his whole life) poured pellgunoil into the port of my dad's FWB 124. (Wrong on a number of levels.*) Bits of yellow plastic started coming out. We at first thought that my nephew had somehow gotten airsoft BBs stuck in there. The bits of plastic were actually the piston seal.

    (*It was an original piston seal that was made of some type of material that reacted poorly with petroleum products. Luckily there wasn't enough pressure for it to detonate.)

    wv: paning, as in "It's pa(i)ning me to tell you that story."

  87. Frank B.
    I tried taking off the scope and using iron sights. I'm just not that used to them and can't get my eyes to focus right to be affective. Thinking about buying either an Ultra Dot four dot or the Champions Choice for $80 less that looks like the same thing. I would like to buy the IZH46M and could put it on that if I find that the P1 doesn't need it.
    I already knew that the P1 was EXTREMELY hold sensitive. But I never thought about how the higher power would affect the sensitivity. If I rest it over the bag on the barrel it will shoot about 2" higher at 10M than if I rest the bottom of the grip on the bag. Also if I zero the scope for center of a 10M pistol target with the grip on the bag then go to a one handed bullseye position it shoots 2" high and 2" left for me(I'm left handed). I don't think the IZH46 comes in a left version but I shot a friends Thursday right handed. The triger was great and I was looking it over and think I can make a left handed grip pretty easy for it.
    I do like the idea of the P1 better for my practice situation because it is a lot closer to the feel of my S&W model 41.
    Thanks for your help,

  88. Scott,

    Man, you nailed it when you said the P1 is hold sensitive. It's the single hardest gun to shoot well that I own. How about building up a custom Crosman 2240? You should be able to build something essentially recoilless and very powerful with a red dot for $150.

    The IZH 46M would be a better choice in terms of trigger, but they're probably out of stock and the red dot mount looks like a PITA.

  89. oh oops! i didn't see your comment FRED sorry. and yes my parents will let me get a pellet gun, they are going to help me buy it for my birth day coming up soon!

  90. Andrew,

    Did you read all 4 parts of the series that B.B. did on the NPSS?

    Your answer is in part 2.



  91. I had not read the review on it until i saw FRED's comment but i have now. i'm also reading the whisper report along with the big cat review also, seems like the npss and the gamo big cat with a gas ram are nearly the same. But i still like the npss over anything so far. Thank You! – Andrew

  92. Scott,The P1 may settle down alot as you continue to shoot it.Don't just give up on it.you just may need to relearn it,but after it stabilizes.I think the chamber oil is mixing and wicking stuff that does combust a little…think about it,you put spring oil AND chamber oil,separated by a piston seal,all mixing with original lube residue!These guns can be tack drivers,have one of the best triggers ever,etc.food for thought.

  93. Derrick,
    I know nothing about the Crossman pistols. Looked at them on PA site though and am curious about what you said about building a "custom" gun. The 4 pound triger is a concern.

    Decided to get off the bag and shoot one handed since that is how i'm gonna be shooting it anyway. After a few sighters and adjustments I got it pretty close to being centered. Hung a new target and started shooting. First 5 were in the nine ring to the right of the ten strung verticaly from 1-5 o'clock. Gave the scope 1 or 2 clicks right(this actually moves the POI left on this quality scope) and shot 6 more because apparently I cant count.the next 6 were 2 o'clock on the edge of the 8 ring then the rest more about centered. For the 11 shots totaled 3-8's 7-9's and 1-10.
    Next target: strung a verticle group of 7 shots from 7 0'clock to 11 o'clock 3-9's 3-8's and 1-10. Pulled on out of the blak in the 6 while paying more attention to how i was holding it than where i was holding it. The other 2 were 8's at 5 o'clock.
    Last target: had a nice round group centered on the target with 3-10's, 4-9's, 2-8's, and 1 seven that I knew i pulled down to 5 o'clock.
    This last group I had the gun griped with my middle finger a little with my ring finger and none with the thumb or pinky. This felt very good and gave a nice round group.
    I think it's coming back. I won't be adding any oil for a long time. I'ts still smoking a lot, but seems like the accuracy is coming back. Can spring piston oil migrate past the seal and get into the chamber and cause some of the smoke or does the seal keep it on the back side?

    Thanks for your guys help. Was panicking there for a minute, thought I screwed up a nice shooting gun.


  94. Frank,
    Didn't see your last coment about the oils (had to go help my son get past a bad guy on Mario Bros Wii). The P1 does seem to be settling down though. At first you could definately feel some major variances in power but that is going away.
    I do like the triger, it's not as light as the Baikal but nice. I have all the creep out of it and the weight screw adjusted completely out. Took the weight spring out and cut one coil of and ground it flat and re-inserted. Definately made it a little lighter but still reliable. Have shot it about 100 times with no misfires firing when closed so I think it will be fine. Never done anything like that before but thought hey it's only a spring and I can buy a new one if it doesn't work.

  95. BB,
    I don't know about the breech seal — it wouldn't take much to affect the power. I'm also wondering about chamber lube; my 490 needed it regularly (honked) until it had several thousand shots through it. I think if the piston seal is tight it could be robbing power? Ryan also said something about the safety not coming on all the time, probably unrelated, but may be a Monday gun:)?

    We're trying to standardize our test, that's why I specified target, pellet and distance — or am I missing something? Ryan did a similar test the other day with an unspecified pellet, but I could tell by the weight he quoted (7.7g) that it wasn't one I have; on the other hand, I am pretty sure Ryan has RWS Basics. Could you try the test, also? The can is just an ordinary vegetable can.

  96. Scott,

    I'm forever championing the Crosman 2240 around here. Forgive me everyone–or better yet just buy one and see what I'm talking about. Crosman makes the 2240, 2250 and 2260 (the rifle version) from minor (interchangeable) variations of the same sub-assemblies. Think of them as modular guns. They all have the same valve but different length gas tubes and barrels. Crosman makes a $30 steel breech add-on that replaces the plastic breech and has dovetal rails for scope rings cut in it–I consider this a mandatory purchase.

    If you start with a 2240 pistol but want a longer barrel (and more velocity) you can add a 2250 barrel. The barrels aren't choked so you can hacksaw them and re-crown them pretty easily to any length that you want.

    That 4 pound trigger can go down to under 2 pounds with a buffing wheel or a Dremel tool and a different spring from Ace hardware.

    You can also change calibers by ordering a 1377 barrel or a 1760 (.177 rifle barrel) from Crosman and swapping it with the .22 cal. You'll need a .177 caliber bolt and o-ring as well. 3 parts to change calibers and it's a 10 minute job.

    Lots of guys enjoy modifying the gun and invest hundreds of dollars into the $60 base model 2240–and the crazy thing is–it's worth doing.

  97. Fred–Scott298 with my 350 in .177 using H+H or H+N -can't remember at the moment – but I use then in match in the 10gr+size. At 25 yards i can get a 5 shot group indoors, using a shooting bench and a 50lb bag of sand that can be covered by a nickle. I use the artillary hold and never let the gun come in contact eith anything but my hand. Every now and then I get the flyer -mostly due to body sway. Nothing like looking thru your scope then seeing the target start rocking. I go thru the breathing procedure but my biggest problem is taking too long to shoot. I have those 5 nice holes packed tight together then 2 sedonds becomes 3-4-5 then off to the right by a 1/2 inch. If I could just break this habit, quirk or what ever you want to call it I may be bragging about 10 shot groups!

  98. Scott298 – that sounds about right. It's a real challenge to get a good, one hole, 5 shot group with this rifle. I use JSB Exacts Jumbo 15.85gr but find that RWS Super H also give very good results and are a couple bucks cheaper and always appear to be in stock. Now with my RWS 46, I find this is my most accurate spring piston or at least, the easiet to shoot accurately. It's an older one and has the T01 trigger which is more adjustable that the newer T05 RWS triggers. I really like this for plinking and paper hole punching. It's a bit on the weak side for hunting but then, the local fox, coyote and hawk population have thinned out my squirrels and rabbits for me.


  99. BG_Farmer,

    If needed, I can add some chamber lube (silicone oil should work, right?). I'll try my 490 with the basics next time I shoot. I just wanted to make sure that my rifle didn't have a power deficiency since I'll mostly be plinking, meaning that I'll be using fun targets that I'd like to get a proper reaction out of :P. Hopefully I won't have to send it back!

    Thanks, Ryan

  100. Ryan,
    Don't use the chamber lube unless you really need it; try without it first. If the rifle honks when you cock it, the seal is probably dry and chamber lube is indicated. When/if you do use the lube (two DROPS), work the barrel up and down through the cocking motion a few times (without letting it latch) to get the lube spread around. Even then it will take a few shots to settle down. I hope you don't have to send it back, but its important that it works right.

  101. BB,

    First of all, I tried yesterday my S410 and I am impressed with its performance. I will post soon the photo of the single-hole 44-meter group (a bit more of 3/4 of an inch) ond it was the FIRST TIME I shooted with it!!

    Also, I am intrigued with the new PCP from Gamo (Dyna Max) advertised in PA. What do you say? Some friends told me it was a BSA…

    The other thing, there's a new dealer of JSB near my city. Have you ever tried the 25-gr JSB Exact Monster? The look rather good.

    Greetings for you and all the guys out here 😉

    Anthony from the land of tequila and wide-eyed women

  102. Anthony,

    Yes, the DynaMax is a cheaper version of the BSA Hornet. It is filled to 230 Bar, which means a lot of people here in the states will not get all the shots the gun has to offer, because their equipment doesn't go over 200 bar.


  103. B.B. and all,

    I think I just stumbled on one of the worst examples of this blog topic. It is Amazon.com's "product description" on the Crosman 1377C, which is sold through Pyramid Air!

    The description is not PA's, but Amazon's own written by a classic know-nothing "expert" we have been talking about, and it precedes PA's appropriate description. It is downright dangerous!

    I contacted Amazon about it, but have no guarantee they will act on it. Maybe Edith or PA could get this corrected quicker?

    Here is the insane offending text in totality:

    A 1:1 scale replica of a genuine classic pistol, this Crosman 1377 airsoft pistol is remarkably authentic. The 1377 fires round small plastic pellets known as BBs, which are propelled out of the gun through pneumatic air power. The advantage of the airsoft pistol, however, is that players can safely train, simulate, or play with the gun without fearing serious injury. The 1377 looks, feels, weighs, and functions just like a real firearm, but is built for casual recreation rather than weaponized use. In fact, the only way you can typically tell a real-steel firearm from an airsoft pistol is the blazing orange tip and the BBs that fire when you pull the trigger. The 1377 offers such features as a single-action bolt design for easier cocking and loading, a rifled steel barrel for accuracy, an easy-pump forearm for variable pump power, your choice of a fully adjustable rear peep or open sights, and a fixed blade front.

    I guess whoever wrote this could be referred to as "Bubba 3." Hopefully nobody acts on the erroneous information in this dumb description and gets hurt, and that it gets changed ASAP.


  104. Since we're wrapping up the weekend waiting for BB's surprise (pant, pant) I thought I'd follow up on a couple things we've talked about before.

    One is the chrony set up. A long while back I think I said I'd report how my new chrony worked after getting a lot of good advice from you all on how to set it up. What I ended up doing, and has worked flawlessly so far, is to buy one of those double halogen light work lamps from Harbor Freight for work in my garage. The lamp was very inexpensive (~$20), sturdy, and has an adjustable tripod stand and at least a 6 foot pole that can be telescoped to any height between 2 feet and 6.

    I thought I'd try it out on my chrony to see if it would work. I extend it to the highest limit and shine it directly down on the light diffusers. The two lamps are spaced exactly the same distance as the light diffusers and the tripod legs allow me to slide them in under the chrony tripod and get the lamps directly over the center of the diffusers. The halogen bulbs are 150 watts each. I don't remember the original wattage (max rating is 500) but after breaking one in the garage while working on my car, I replaced them with 150's. The resulting setup is easy to establish and the light shining down through the diffusers instead of up and then reflecting down is much more pleasing to the shooter and casts a very good direct pellet shadow over the sensors.

    The other topic is storing air rifles in softsided gun cases. Before I read the posts and comments on how these are not the proper way to store guns for the long term I bought one for each of my rifles. I got them at the local Dunham's Sporting Goods store for about $12 apiece. The exterior is a canvas looking material and the liner appears to be a rough cloth material sewn over something spongy. You've probably all seen them. I have multiple IZH-61's so I hung all but one of them on a hook inside a closet type room with no other covering on them. The other I kept in the rifle case described above hung on a nail in the same room. None of the rifles barrels have been treated. They have been stored this way for approximately a year. The ones hung on a nail get used frequently but the one in the case does not.

    As no surprise to those who were part of the past storage discussions, the 61 kept in the cloth gun case developed barrel rust whereas the ones kept on a hook do not. End of experiment!!! Now, what's the best way to get those tiny little rust spots off?


  105. Anthony from the land of tequila and wide-eyed women,

    Your enthusiasm after shooting your knew S410 is getting me excited. That's a good group for your first time shooting with it.

    I've shot the new JSB monsters in my S410. They're ok at up to about 25 yards and then the accuracy is mediocre. Lot of lead in those pellets. Kodiaks are more accurate in my S410 and don't give up much weight. I shoot these heavy pellets at full power.

    If you decide to try some JSB monsters or Kodiaks in your gun let us know how they perform.


  106. Kevin and CJr,

    After some 19 years stored, my old Diana Mod 25D was covered with real crusts of rust. Awful!

    I tried with various types of rags, including T-shirts and old jeans. What was the best? My ol' Sheath anti-rust liquid, from Birchwood-Casey, and the finest steel wool I could find to remove the crusts. It did not damage the bluing, and later I used the rags to finish the work. Also worked with the Fwb 124, and its original bluing is like new.

    I wonder if those little sacs used to keep moisture away (silica gel) will work to prevent the rust. I cannot find specialized products easily out here.


  107. Anthony,
    Hmm…maybe I'm not done experimenting yet. I'll try to find some of those packets for a test, but I wonder just how much moisture can they handle? The worst that can happen is I'll end up with two 61's with rusty barrels 🙂


  108. CJr,go to AGMcontainers…they will save your next 61 from harm in a reasonably sealed area…the trick is to calculate how much to use based on aprox. volume of sealed storage.Look at the muffler on the home page!

  109. BB regarding Amazon,

    If Edith is on the case, I have the utmost confidence that it will be resolved promptly. All of my experiences have shown this to be the situation.

    Edith, Give 'em hell!

  110. Frank B, Anthony,
    I visited that AGM site and have come to the conclusion that desiccant won't work for my application unless the storage enclosure is air tight. My existing containers (cloth gun cases) are too porous and the hard working desiccant would just wear itself out rather quickly. End of experiment. As per the previous discussions a few months ago, I need a gun safe that can be humidity controlled. Anything else would be too inconvenient.


  111. Anthony,

    I'm glad steel wool worked on removing your rust. Even 0000 steel wool should be a last resort on bluing in my opinion.

    Bronze wool would be my intermediate choice but using Ballistol as the lubricant. Bronze Wool is harder than rust but softer than steel wool and Bronze Wool, unlike steel wool, resists shedding and corrosion.


  112. pz,

    You now have the same information I do for the Crosman Catalogue.

    If you want to enlarge anything you're viewing on line and you have pc, hold down your control button and hit "+" to enlarge and "-" to decrease. If the enlargement is out of focus transport your image to photoshop and manipulate starting with cropping then fitting pixels to the screen.


  113. So are the new Benjamin Trail NPs Chinese, American, Turkish ?
    I'd like an affordable gas rammed .25 break barrel with a wooden stock.
    If American I'll buy as soon as it is available but if foreign I'll wait for someone else to "pull the trigger" and see how they shape up.I so didn't want a Super Streak that I lost out on a good trade because I kept valuing it as zero rather than $50-100 when I really only wanted the other two guns in the package.

  114. Ducky,I just looked and the Super streak @ 289$$ scoped has 66 reviews averaging 4.5 stars.It seems you threw the baby out with the bath water.I would have gladly given 100$ for one.That being said,I also share your cynicism of chinese manufacturing….evidence in this case proves us both wrong…

  115. Kevin wrote…

    You now have the same information I do for the Crosman Catalogue.

    If you want to enlarge anything you're viewing on line and you have pc, hold down your control button and hit "+" to enlarge and "-" to decrease. If the enlargement is out of focus transport your image to photoshop and manipulate starting with cropping then fitting pixels to the screen.



    I tried all that; I just couldn't get enough out of even PS to satisfy me. I hoped you had had the original paper in hand and could rescan.

    Hatsan Arms, a Turkish manufacturer is showing some interesting new guns, including a new two-stage trigger and vibration absorbing system for springers and a PCP family as well. I'm in Istanbul this week and may look around. If I can't get something cheap as a souvenir, I won't bother.

  116. Anonymous,

    The "plug" on the link to the Crosmans 2010 catalogue was pulled after 44 minutes. I never made a copy. Should have in hindsight.

    Apparently Crosman is jealously guarding the unveiling of these new guns until the shotshow. Although a few of us had a glimpse of what's to come the details will have to wait for everyone else until after the show.


  117. Hey BB, I was going post on one of your ballistic post but decided on a more recent.
    Just currious of your opinion.
    I was testing out several pellets in my B40 .177 and had what I thought were interesting results.
    I found that the JSB exact 10.2 were the most accurate(.5"ctc@ 25yd). The CPH were a close 2nd. What was curious is that the JSB shot lower than everything by 2" or more. That included Disco 10.5gr, Kodiak 10.5, and the lighter Crow Mag 8.8gr. The JSB has one of the highest BC of any pellet and certainly has what I would consider an aero dynamic shape. Do you find they generally shoot lower and what about the pellet could cause this.
    By the way when I dont want someone to know how powerful my pellet gun is I call it a "bb gun".

    Thanx RandyA

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