The best of B.B.: The BB pistol that didn’t shoot BBs

by Tom Gaylord
writing as B.B. Pelletier

Happy New Year! Today is New Year’s Day, and I’m taking the day off. I’ll still watch the comments, but I didn’t write a new report for today. Tomorrow, however, I have a big surprise for you!

Remember that I originally wrote this report in 2005. I’ve updated the captions, but not the main text.

We’re surrounded by hundreds of BB pistols today. There seems to be no end of models from which to choose, but it wasn’t always that way. In the 1930s, the first American BB pistol was a very different kind of airgun.

The Daisy Targeteer was on every kid’s wish list! 
Daisy’s Targeteer was initially offered in 1937. It came in a cardboard box with the pistol, instructions, a metal tube of special shot (we’ll get to that in a moment) and spinner targets. The box converted into a backstop that held the spinners so they could be shot safely. All this cost just $2.00!

Targeteer
Daisy’s Targeteer pistol lasted many years and came in several versions. This is the earliest one.

Targeteer box
The Targeteer box doubled as a shooting gallery. Simple metal spinners reacted nicely when shot, and the BBs didn’t penetrate the cardboard lid that served as a backstop.

Special shot for a special gun
The Targeteer’s action is a spring-piston design that has to be the world’s weakest BB gun! Instead of shooting conventional steel BBs, it shot special .118-caliber (nominally called .12 caliber) steel shot that Daisy made just for this gun. If you read about the Sharpshooter rubber band catapult gun in my May 11 posting [2005], you’ll remember that they’re the same caliber as the Targeteer. The Sharpshooter shot traditional No. 6 lead birdshot that’s used in shotgun shells. The Targeteer’s ammo was steel! Only a company as large as Daisy had the resources to make a steel version of this shot!

Targeteer shot
Regular BBs dwarf .12-caliber Targeteer shot.

The Targeteer operates just like a conventional Daisy rifle in all ways but cocking. To cock it, pull the barrel back into the action. Most people simply pushed the muzzle back with the heel of their hand while holding the grip in their other hand, which means they’re cocking a gun with their hand over the muzzle!

Not a bang but a whimper

The Targeteer discharges with an anemic sound, much like a mouse coughing. When the piston jumps forward, the BB exits the muzzle at, perhaps, 100-150 f.p.s. Being very light as well as slow, the BB cannot break windows, lightbulbs or even one sheet of paper at a distance greater than 10 feet. That’s why the cardboard box was good enough as a backstop.

Even though this gun lacks power, it’s fun to shoot! The Targeteer lasted up to World War II, then resumed production after the war. Nickel-plated versions (often mistakenly called chrome-plated) were available after the war, as was a very pretty plastic shooting gallery model that housed the gun on top of the gallery when not in use. The gallery was only offered from 1949 through 1952 and is considered a prized Daisy collectible in its own right.

Targeteer gallery
This Targeteer Shooting Gallery is an action target, a stand for the gun when its not in use and each foot stores one tube of BBs.

Targeteers are easy to find!
I find Targeteers all the time at flea markets, gun shows and airgun shows. A reasonable price for the first-version blued gun by itself in good condition with lots of blue and no rust is $60. Nickel-plated guns with lots of finish sell for $40 to $60. A Targeteer complete in the cardboard box sells for $100 to $150; the red plastic shooting gallery with gun goes for $200 to $300, depending on condition. The metal shot tubes bring $5 to $10; if you’re lucky, they’ll still have some copper-plated steel shot inside.

Read about it in the Blue Book of Airguns
The Blue Book of Airguns, 5th Edition will be available soon. If you’re interested in strange old airguns like the Targeteer, be sure to order a copy. [The 11th Edition of the Blue Book of Airguns is now available.]

91 thoughts on “The best of B.B.: The BB pistol that didn’t shoot BBs


  1. I thought differently when you said a gas supplementary system to me looks like multi pump that is a springer, one stroke will shoot the gun but keep pumping to fill a cylinder, when the tank is full and the piston is shot it will simultaneously open the tank and throw the piston, the high velocity of the piston will open it so its not dumping on regular cocking strokes. When the piston fires and the valve opens you’ll get a huge push that will also brake the piston movement by continuing to push until it has slowed to the lower cocking velocity


  2. Over here in yea olde UK we had the Harrington Gat gun that worked on exactly the same principle, you could shoot .177 pellet, dart, or in the case of my delinquent friends of the 70’s, shoot rolled up bits of tin foil at each others legs , arms, torso, and in the case of some would be ASBO’s in the face. However the point I’m making is that it would appear that any one who is into air rifles of a certain age in the UK started of with the Gat gun which as i have already said is basically a Targeteer.

    TTFN

    Happy new year.

    All the best, wing commander sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe


    • Every generation has a first pistol first rifle which is great, mine-(25-30yr olds) seem to recall the cheap marksman spring pistol and the 760, the marksman was so low priced it was often the only airgun around in my mill town ghettos. I never saw an expensive airgun in all my travels until moving up the ranks of the wally world shelves, not even then, but joining the online community. Massachusetts has always been a tough gun state and it carries over to airguns, parents don’t like their kids going that direction around here, probably because idle hands are the devils playground, and there’s NOTHING to do in the small towns, but its a common fear in Massachusetts that guns are for police or military and normal people don’t need them and if they have them they are “gangsters” or “hillbillies” no joke, that’s the common thought. Way too suburban.


      • RDNA
        Don’t know about you but if I lived there I think I would have to say I could fall into one of those category’s by their way of thinking. What ever happened to the good old days when you could walk down the street to the woods with a rifle in your hand. Then on top of it all wave to the police in his car as he drove by and he would wave back to you. I guess I’m showing my age again.

        All I can say is sad. One minute they think a air gun is a toy and then the next minute they think a air gun is a deadly assault weapon or something.

        Sounds like somebody needs to wake up.


        • RDNA and Gunfunn1,

          And recent events around the country do not help. What do you expect when a person points a realistic looking weapon at a police officer and /or refuses to drop it?

          Common sense, responsibility and respect for the law go a long way.


          • Chris, USA
            The world ain’t the same today as it was 50 years ago.

            And respect plays a big role in whatever you do. You don’t know how many times we had this conversation on the blog since I have been reading.

            Politics is usually not a good subject when it comes up on the blog.

            But everything is out of hand and everybody thinks they know the answer.

            Hmm I wonder what it will be like in 50 more years.

            I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I start getting funny twitches that I can’t control for some reason.


            • Gunfun1,

              Advice taken and will be remembered in the future. Very true. On that, I will check out, chill, and see what B.B.’s big surprise is in the AM. What a “showman” that B.B. guy…..build, build, build anticipation. While I could have done better in school, I think that is one of the qualities of a good writer….to keep you comin’ back! 🙂


              • Chris, USA
                I usually get all excited when BB tries to keep us in suspense.

                But that’s one of my new years resolutions for this year is to not get excited and stay cool and just wait.

                Let’s see how long I can stick to it.

                And BB dog gone it anyway will you hurry up and tell us the surprise! Do you know how long I have been waiting! I can’t wait another minute!

                Well there goes that resolution. 🙂


          • Chris,USA
            I agree with everything you said but on the same hand the law enforcement are also at fault in some of the incidents and we are still innocent until proven guilty.

            It is the people that do not even know what common sense means that do those sort of things and in turn ruin it for all the rest of us responsible people. Our justice system needs a full overhaul as to how it applies the punishments and sentences for some of these crimes. You can call me a conservative radical or whatever but I very strongly feel that if public executions were brought back and the death penalty was actually enforced in a reasonable time frame such as 2 or 3 years after the sentence has been given and was done by public hanging or firing squad there would be far less crime than there is now. I firmly believe in an EYE for an EYE and if you are convicted of murder then you deserve nothing less than loss of your life as when you committed the crime of murder you gave up every right you had to your life.

            BD


            • I think the justice system is stuck in the middle of every thing when it comes to deciding what happened in an incident and if somebody was defending their life but it looks like a murder its tough to try and protect EVERYBODY’S right to fair trial. I’ve been well acquinted with the court, unfortunately, and know that everybody cries they didn’t do it and that some didn’t, but the leeway for those few have made a mess of quick justice for the victims. I’ve been attacked and charged with assault and had to defend myself in court, lot of time and stress to get it dismissed, but when I did something I would be flat out honest because I see it like why waste everyones time? It was stupid or wasn’t thinking straight and I want to be a better person so why lie? Problem really is there are too many young men that think the world is something to fight against, its not, its just life and you fight for it. Take your mistakes and move on and fight to be a better person, no matter what.


              • RDNA
                If everyone had your sense of responsibility then it would not be the mess it is as you stated as I too have had my times in court and always told the truth because lies always change and will eventually catch up to you because you cannot remember what you told to who, but the truth is always the truth.

                So yes its in the mess because people for the most part are not willing to accept responsibility for their actions and place blame where it does not belong. I mean if you are dumb enough to get a hot cup of coffee from a fast food restaurant and place in between your legs while driving and then spill it and get burned you deserve to get burned and yet you can sue the restaurant and be awarded a million dollars now that real justice and a total waste of yours and my tax dollars as it should have never even got close to a court room. As I stated above the problem as I see it is there are way to many people that don’t have a clue what common sense is much less know when to use it.

                BD



      • RDNA
        What did I tell you last night as we Alabama rednecks would welcome like minded yanks down in our neck of the woods and we think everyone should be armed to the teeth and also allow it to be carried out in the open with no law enforcement harassment.

        You need to get out of the land of govt control of every aspect of your life and come down here to experience what real freedom is all about.

        BD


  3. Happy New Year and good morning to all,

    Old toys such as the ones above are interesting. I did get the latest “BlueBook” included in my order. It will be interesting to go through and learn new things. Maybe in the future I may put an ad in the local paper “air guns wanted, quality and vintage only”. Much to learn before I would consider that. Not to mention all the calls of people looking to unload their Wally World Mega Blasters due to poor scopes and lack of accuracy. That will be way down the road, but I did want a resource I could turn to in case I run accross something.

    Gunfunn1 and Buldawg76,….I am seeing you two are quite the “night owls”. Not me. I’m at my best in the a.m. . Great conversation on noise and recoil rating from yesterday. With GF’s machinist exp. and BD’s mechanical and R+D exp., it really gives this blog a great resource. Yes, it should be easy to do, (whatever way you think it should be done.) I am reminded of one of B.B.’s comments on “standardization” in the industry,…in which the bottom line was that there wasn’t much. Specifics vary from mfgr. to mfgr. and item to item of coarse.

    The term “shot cycle” caught my interest, (smooth, sweet, rough, hard, awful, etc.). In the simplest of terms, how would you best describe that to a newbie? Is there multiple phases [within] the entire cycle? First, 1) you will feel this, next, 2) you will feel this, and finally, 3) you will feel this. You get the idea.


    • Chris USA.
      You could sat that all spring gun will do once the trigger is pulled all done in milliseconds before the pellet leaves the barrel : 1st slight recoil backward, 2nd harsh recoil forward, 3rd medium recoil backward, and finally a impulse buzz/vibration/thud /thunk. All varies greatly from gun to gun depending on tolerances inside/if proper lubes exist/pellet weight/and proper hold technique.


      • Chris in Ct.,

        Nice reply and seems very on point. I’ve learned enough in my short time here to know some of the variables as you pointed out. I asked for a simple explanation and yours was not only that, but detailed as well. Thanks, Chris


    • Chris, USA
      First things first. Happy New Year.

      And I am a bit of a night owl. I work 2nd shift and we do (4) 10 hr. days. I get home from work at 1:00 am. And I get to sleep probably at about 3:00 am or so. So yep I’m up late.

      And Buldawg lives 3 or 4 states away from me but we have already exchanged some air gun things and I done some machine work for him. We text on the phone probably everyday about something. And you know what I never knew him until we started talking on the blog. We found we have a lot in common.

      And I know you said you liked to tinker with things also. So here’s the video that Buldawg sent me about tuning a TX. Its part of what got me wanting to do my TX along with blog BB did about a guy tunning a magnum springer. I wanted to get the quietest non-moving springer that I ever shot. and I did. And this is just a basic tune in the video. My tune is way more complicated. Oh and I would rate my TX tune job as a 1 if we had a rating scale. 🙂

      And remember the other day when I told you that reply will probably be the shortest one you will ever see from me. Well I told you so. 😉

      And here’s the video. You ain’t going to believe how easy the TX is to disassemble and do a basic tune.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg2U78vl67I


      • Gunfunn1,

        I am in total awe! Unbelievable! Does PA sell the tune kit, just curious? I will shoot as is for now though.

        And this may be the shortest comment you will ever see from me.


        • Chris, USA
          Here is where I got my tune kit from. It seems to be one of the more popular company’s that has kits. I’m sure there is more out there. And PA may carry tune kits for the TX. I will look in a second and post if I see anything.

          Oh and this is something important I want to say. I got the 12 fpe pro glide 2 kit. The Vortek kits come with a new spring. And the 12 fpe kit is actually supposed to be less velocity than what the factory TX makes. I cut a little more than 2 inches off the new spring. Then I added my rubber washers and steel washers to the kit. But when the gun is assembled there is no more spring tension. Matter of fact the spring has 1 inch of free play when assembled. When its not cocked the spring can actually move forward and backwards a total of 1 inch.

          And your going say well no wonder it shoots so smooth. It don’t make any power. Wrong my gun is now shooting 50 fps faster than it did when it came from the factory which is 800 fps with the 10.34 JSB pellets. Before my tune it was shooting 750 fps with the same pellets.

          Here it is. And again I used the 12fpe kit. And what is also cool is I still have the original spring and components that came factory in the gun. and they are untouched so I can put it back to stock with no problem. oh and I got one more trick up my sleeve that i haven’t done yet and that’s lighten the piston by milling some slots the length of the piston. I did one for Buldawg for a air gun hes building. Maybe he can post a picture of that piston.

          http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/index.php?route=product/category&path=45



          • Gunfun1,

            Got the vortex products saved to favorites. Thank you. I have seen the PA rebiuld kit. An obvious question would be on cutting the spring. The ends are “squared or leveled”. How do you replicate that?


            • After cutting get the end red hit with a blowtorch and press it against something ( that won’t catch fire! ) and the last coil will flatten up, then you can file and polish it smooth. I have seen guys heat and squash coils to remove some power instead of cutting.


            • And remember when you measure to cut that squishing the end flat will take as much length as you squish, .25″ is a bare minimum, more like .5″ the least. After that its up to you how many coils you compress permanently.


            • Chris, USA
              I have to make different spring lengths at work for different applications.

              First never heat a spring, always try to keep the spring as cool as possible.

              We use a cut off wheel to cut the spring to size. And we dip it in water as we cut if it is a thick diameter spring. The cut off wheel will go through a 1/4” diameter coil in just matter of seconds like cutting warm butter.

              If the spring is changing colors where your cutting at your going to fast and getting to hot.

              After its cut to size then I square the ends flat with a surface grinder. You don’t have to worry if there is a end gap between the flat of the spring and the coil its by. usually you will have a washer a steel flat washer at each end of the spring or a flat spring pocket the spring will seat in so it wont move around.

              When I’m done with a spring it looks just like it did before it got cut. But now shorter.

              And I use to build race cars. Lots and lots of race cars. We always had to cut the suspension springs to get the ride height and preloads right for weight transfer. You know the spring on the back passenger side of the car on a rear wheel drive drag car needs to be a stronger or heavier preloaded spring than the back driver side spring don’t you. The back right tire will actually try to lift off the ground when the body of the back right tries to go down.

              So yea I got a lot of experience cutting springs. Heat is a big no.


              • Gunfun1,

                Got it, “no heat and squish” and keep it cool. Another dilema,..I did some actual measuring of my “indoor target lane”,…I only got 41′ or 13.6yds from muzzle to impact. Is that too close to sight in and play? I went with the Leapers 3-12X44AO ez tap. You said 50yds. and others said 20yds but either is mute point in current OH weather. What you think?


                • Chris, USA
                  Remember what my biggest reason was that I said I zero at 50 yards. Most of my shooting is a 45 to 60 yards basically. I like my scope zeroed at the range I shoot at the most.

                  And remember as I shoot closer to me I point the gun down. My hold under.
                  As I shoot out past 50 yards I point the gun up. My hold over.

                  I use the lower magnification setting so there is less hold as it appears in the scope when I look through it. Its just simpler for me that way. And the most I ever hold over or under is 1 mildot.

                  It makes it easier for me that way if I want to get on target of a pest real quick. I know that if I have a starling at any distance from 15 yards to 65 yards I can aim for center mass of the bird and hit it somewhere from the head to its lower breast. Of course if there is no wind coming into play. The closer in the less left or right hold I have to put in. But the farther away I get from where I’m shooting from the more left or right hold I have to but in for the same amount of wind because of the greater distance the pellet has to travel. The more distance gives more time for the pellet to get blown off course.

                  And what is to close to sight in mean. If you want to shoot right now inside then just get your left and right sighting on target. Leave your turret adjustment centered for elevation or up and down. Then shoot and see how many mildots high your shooting and use that aim point inside.

                  But BB has a quick sight in deal he does at 10 yards or something by measuring the distance from the center of the barrel to the center of the scope. You put a dot on the paper and then another one above the first dot the distance that you measured from your scope and barrel. Then you aim at the top one if I’m remembering right and you get your pellet to impact on the bottom one.

                  Hopefully BB will see and explain his quick sight in better.

                  And remember my 50 yard sight in may not work for your particular shooting style so try some different sight ins when you get outside and see what you like best.


                  • Gunfun1,

                    I thought it would be ok. I understand your method, I do. I just was not sure that the scope would focus at that short of range. As for B.B.’s 10 yard method for quick set up,….I read that just a short time ago. I will try to find it again for a quick refresher.


                    • Chris, USA
                      Oh ok distance the scope will focus.

                      Yes it will still focus that close. First turn up to say 9 magnification. Then take and go to the lowest yard setting your scope reads on the yards of the AO adjustment and rotate it slowly till you get the best focus you can at that magnification setting.

                      After that if it still is not as sharp as you want then turn the magnification down till you get the sharpest sight picture you want. as you start getting higher on the magnification you will loose the sharpness.

                      Also forgot a big thing is (first) adjust your reticle sharpness by looking at a plain wall. It don’t matter if you can’t focus on anything. But you need to start turning the eye piece out just until the reticle sharpens up.

                      Then you can do the above steps to get the scope focused sharp for the distance your shooting at.


              • So when vortek cuts a spring for you and brings the last coil together how do they do it? It doesn’t seem to have hurt anything on the 135 spring I did it to, will it start to weaken?


                • RDNA
                  I honestly don’t know how or who makes Vortek makes springs.

                  And as far as your spring goes. I would say it could weaken it now that its been heated.

                  But will you ever be able to tell? You know you really need to get a chrony. 😉


          • Chris, USA
            Here’s a couple pictures of the piston I did for Buldawg to lighten it up. I’m hoping it will take away some of the retained energy from the piston. Kind of like if you shoot a lighter pellet. It should go faster but hit easier. That should reduce the forward bump of the shot cycle.

            But the first picture shows the one factory slot that was in the piston. I put 3 more slots 90 degrees apart from the original slot and you can see it in the other picture. And I polished the piston also.

            http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG950386_zpsee130779.jpg

            http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG950388_zps603f6711.jpg



  4. Another item of interest is, (pellet weighing) and (head size sorting.) B.B. commented awhile back that, ” get some quality pellets and you will see the difference.” I got 4 tins coming and I will do some checks. I would imagine that the tolerances will be much tighter, but not perfect.

    A 750ct. can of Benjamins .177/7.9 will have pellets weighing from 7.8~8.3 grains. Head size will vary from .175~.180. Most fall within a mid “range”, but I can put some in each of the 36 categories.

    It seems that a serious target shooter would want to know (exactly) is going down their barrel. Then again, with so many variables, (hold, skill, scope, etc.), maybe it does not matter all that much. Maybe it’s just better to get a quality tin with tighter tolerances and just shoot.


  5. B.B.

    Wish you and Ms. Edith & family a very Happy & Prosperous New Year. Looking forward to some great stuff from you Sir. Waiting in great anticipation here.

    Errol


  6. I’ll reserve my comments on the Targeteer until I see B.B.s groups that are shot at 25 yards. I’m also curious to see how you mount a scope on this pistol. Must require some kind of aftermarket adapter?

    Just because it’s a new year doesn’t necessarily mean things change.

    kevin


    • Kevin,

      As for scope mounting, I would lean towards hose clamps with maybe duct tape running a close second. Not the cheap kind,..get the good stuff. And for the 25yd. accuracy test,..maybe throwing it?


      • Chris,

        Greatly appreciate the insight into Targeteer scope mounting solutions.

        As for accuracy testing at 25 yards, I have complete confidence in B.B. since he spent a lot of years with artillery pieces once upon a time.

        kevin


    • Kevin,

      To mount a scope on the Targeteer a spot-weld is necessary. You want to keep the temp low, because the sheet steel isn’t very thick.

      I’m not sure my Targeteer will go all the way out to 25 yards. Certainly not inside the house, because the doorways aren’t high enough.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Just the kind of information I needed.

        Doorways aren’t high enough? Can’t you shoot from a prone position? Any holes shot in the drywall will be very small (.12 caliber) so doubt if Edith will notice or mind.

        kevin



      • Naw, crazy glue works just fine. Be sure and de-grease the metal first. I use dish-soap for that figuring if it’ll take the remains of breakfast sausage off the frying-pan, it’ll work good on air/fire arms.
        As usual, my personal interpretation of the scientific method is; “What could go wrong?”



      • I prefer a modified Weaver Stance and grip with my right thumb over the 4-16×40 scope and my left index finger underneath it, in order to make enough room to to cock the Targeteer by slamming the muzzle against my knee. This way I actually just have it mounted “finger tight” in a way that does not require any permanent modifications to the gun itself, and it has the added benefit of being a “quick dismount”.
        Also, it makes it a lot easier to shoot it “Gangsta” style where I hold the gun sideways, which I have found really improves the FPE and accuracy of the .12 (although I do use the Wildcats mentioned by GenghisJan’s Gramma) in cases of home defense.

        I also like to add a finger-light on my extended right pinky and my left thumb grips a laser cat-toy set up to show a mouse for tactical distraction and it’s second whisker is my vertical line (with mil-dot precision) for POI when I am using the scope at 10x+ magnification.

        It’s a very effective setup, and I am hoping to get the BATFE to ban the setup so our criminals will be the only ones who can use it.

        Happy New Year, folks! ~Qjay



    • Kevin, thanks for having the courage to say what we’re all thinking, and to point out the obvious shortcomings in B.B.’s testing methodology.

      I know for firsthand fact, based on long internet research, that the Targeteer is a sub-MOA gun at 25 yards when the spring is pumped 12 times. My cousin/grandmother uses wildcat .12 cal centerfire rounds to take wild hogs at 700 yd with his Targeteer. Clearly B.B. has some hidden agenda and is not giving this Targeteer a fair chance.

      Great to have you back from the mountain place. Hope you got some good shooting in.

      -Jan


      • Jan

        Ok can’t help it that was a good one. But only 700 yards. I knew somebody that said they could do it out at 900 yards. And they even said……

        Ok I will stop now. 🙂


      • Jan,

        No shooting over the holidays at my mountain home. Temperatures were below zero during the day with wind chill hitting -23 one day. Went skiing and snowmobiling instead.

        Happy New Year to you and yours!

        kevin


  7. B.B. (and anyone that cares to read) concerning the “bb” gun the “Kevin” in the movie “Home Alone” shoots, I contacted the Daisy and got the following response: ” Yes, the gun in the Home Alone movie was a modified Daisy BB gun. If movies want to use a Daisy bb gun in their scripts, they must get approval first. In the movie, the bb gun was used to shoot someone, which is something the company does not approve of at all. The production company was going to use a bb gun for the plot and Daisy did not want the bb gun in the movie to look like a Daisy product. The end result is that the bb gun in the movie is modified so that it cannot be identified as an actual Daisy product. I don’t know if the gun actually shot any projectiles. That gun was never produced”.
    So it was a Daisy sort of, but as you said, never a model they produced so to speak. Thanks, Bradly


  8. Happy New Year All!!

    2015, my year for the pursuit of accuracy. To start it off, can someone help with a bit of perspective on sorting pellets please…

    I received a 20g “Jewelers” scale for Christmas that has a .02gr accuracy tolerance.

    Is a .1gr resolution adequate for sorting pellets?

    The .1gr represents 1% to 1.25% of the weight of the .177 pellet; is this variation enough to noticeably affect the POI?

    I’m just trying things out so I sampled about 30 pellets from three different brands and found that 80-85% formed the main group and the remainder are within .1gr of that weight.

    I’d rather be shooting pellets than weighing them so I am hoping to use the scale for checking small samples to identify whether the manufacturing process control for that brand or that tin/batch is target/hunting quality or plinking at tin cans.

    On a side note, the scale I am using is “hobby quality” not “lab quality”, think it cost under $25.00.
    I found that the precision (repeatability of measurements) improved greatly if…
    – the scale was on a level surface
    – that it was stored, calibrated and used in the same temperature (avoid breathing on the scale)
    – that vibrations were minimized (someone walking by or the freezer compressor cycling would affect the readings)
    – use the center of the scales’ weight range.

    My 20g scale came with two 10g calibration weights. I found that putting one of the weights on the scale and applying the tare would result in more precise measurements than putting the pellet directly on the scale.

    Thoughts and comments appreciated.

    Vana2


    • Vana2,

      Nice questions! I too got a scale a couple of months ago and have weighed quite a bit. The first one I got was around 25$ with no calibration weight. It weighed all pellets the same so I knew something was wrong. I took it back the next day and got one that cost 35$. It’s a MTM model DS-750 and came with a 50 grain weight. From my above comment, you can see that I got a bit more variation than you. Mine measures to .1

      Yes they are very sensative. As for your POI question, I do not know. There are a lot of other factors that affect where that pellet will hit. You could be dead on one day and then off the next though nothing “seems” to have changed. The one I have learned in the short time I have been on this site is what DID change was something that you will be doing. Not the pellet, not the rifle.


    • Vana2,

      Please let us know (what) you are shooting and any results you discover in the future. I will be doing some of the same things you are, as well as measure head size. But as I stated, I think a bigger variable will ME. 🙂


      • Hi Chris,

        I have a Hammerli AR20 with an 8-32 x 50mm scope and that has been printing some nice 3/8” groups at 50 yards using JSB Exact 8.44gr pellets. Will be using this for most of my pellet testing because the regulator is shooting very consistently (AVG: 761 fps; ES: 11.59; SD: 3.46) and I am getting around 70 shots on a fill. It’s a very heavy gun with a match trigger that shoots well from a rest.

        I have a Weihrauch HW100S in .177 caliber on order (waiting impatiently for its delivery) that I plan on testing beyond 50 yards. This whole exercise is to determine what the HW100’s maximum effective range is. It will be topped with a 6-24 x 44mm Hawke scope. I will have to determine what pellet it prefers and what velocity is optimum – guessing it will be around a 10 grain pellet at between 900 and 950 fps. Going to be a lot of fun figuring all this out, suspect that I will be pretty intimate with the gun and the trajectory by the time I am done.

        Like you, I will be checking pellet head size for variations within a tin. Again my main purpose is to determine if manufacturing tolerance has enough variation to cause an unacceptable change in effective range.

        For me, the effective range is important – it is the farthest range that I will shoot at live game under optimum conditions. It is the maximum range at which the weapon, the projectile and the shooter can keep ALL impacts on target. I think of effective range as being determined by two components – the precision of the weapon and projectile to be able to consistently shoot groups and the accuracy of the shooter to be able to put those groups on target. For airguns and small game (rabbits and smaller) I use a three-quarter inch circle as the target which allows for a three-eighths inch tolerance from the aim-point.

        We all know that as the shooter I am the limiting factor when it comes to accuracy and we go through all this effort so that we can’t blame the gun and pellet when we miss. Mind you we can still blame the gusty wind, poor lighting, rotation of the earth…

        Weighing and measuring every pellet is too tedious for me so for practical purpose I will sort enough to have a stock of the best pellets for the long range applications, use unsorted pellets closer distances that are still within their effective range, use the culled pellets for bashing tin cans and melt damaged pellets to cast them into fishing weights for good use of all materials.

        I plan on keeping detailed stats and using the Chairgun program. I would be happy to share what I discover.

        Vana2


        • Vana2
          Sounds like your on a roll for 2015.

          Don’t you hate that gravitational pull when you try to figure that into your shot. And then what happens when you take trip to the other side of the equator and try to shoot.
          🙂


          • Hi GF1!

            Hope all is good with you and your family!

            Agreed! Gravitational pull is a big concern – look at the tides in the ocean – just imagine what effect it has on a little pellet, no wonder that we miss sometimes LOL!!!

            Yes, on a roll for 2015! Been tied up with house projects for the last couple of years. This is the year to catch up on my fishing and shooting. I have already started tying flies and have 12,000 or so pellet in stock. Just cut a bunch of maple and cherry laminate to make a wood thumb-hole stock for the AR20. I like being busy!

            Vana2


        • Vana2,

          Nice comment. Those are some beautifull rifles. You are clearly light years ahead of me. My first nice air rifle will be the TX200III I just ordered but still have not recieved yet.

          I agree with your effective hunting range of 3/4″ 100% of the time. I would have to ask myself the ft.# at impact for a long range shot as well when hunting.

          I will be amazed when I see a pellet hold .1g tolerance let alone a .01g. And then the head size as well. Weight would seem to play a bigger part in your pursuits.

          Sorry you did not get more response from your POI impact question. You seem to be on the cutting edge of answering that yourself. Keep us posted.


          • Hi Chris,

            I don’t buy many rifles but when I do it is for a specific niche. I go for the best I can afford, take good care of them and keep them forever. I am just getting into PCPs with the AR20 for FT, the HW100 for HFT and general shooting and there may be a .22 caliber Marauder on the want-list for higher energy applications. With the exception of my FWB603 and the AR20 my rifles are over 30 years old. I have always maintained that the cost of the gun is insignificant to the cost of the ammunition that I will put through it.

            The TX200III is a really nice rifle, I am sure that you will get a lot of pleasure from it – Congratulations with your choice!

            Your comment about energy is right on and is the third component of effective range. I didn’t mention that because it is game dependent and separate from a discussion of accuracy. My FWB 124 has an effective accuracy range of 100 feet and produces about 10.5 FPE at the muzzle. I use an effective energy range of 50 feet for rabbits, 40 feet for squirrels and 10 feet or less for woodchucks (I much prefer to use a .22 rimfire for woodchucks if at all possible – they are tough!).

            We will sort out the POI stuff when the weather warms up! The serious shooting will start in March after the snow melts.

            Vana2





  9. Had a VERY late night celebrating but going home just means a walk across the street so no danger involved 🙂 Happy New Year to all here!!! Hopefully, my increasing interest in air guns will not lead to yet ANOTHER expensive hobby/engrossment 🙂


    • Kevin in CT,

      If thats what your hoping to avoid,…then my only advice would be to RUN,…run away quickly!

      On the other hand, if you have already been here for a while and checked out P.A. very much,….then it’s probably already too late. 😉



  10. That gun kind of reminds me of the Marksman BB pistol. It’s somewhat more powerful than the Dasiy but no powerhouse for sure!
    I still have the one my Dad bought for me sometime around 1962. It still works which is a surprise since it has been shot a lot.

    Mike





      • Tom,

        An air gun that makes my childhood Marksman and Daisy 179 seem like magnums! Incidentally, my 179 and Marksman are both quite accurate with Copperheads out to about 4 yards. And compensating for drop is easy as you can clearly see each BB in flight, so even at six yards a bit of, well, we know what Kentucky Windage is, Might this be called “Illinois Elevation”?

        I think I’ll keep my eyes peeled for one of these, especially since an alternative ammo is readily available. I wonder what kind of muzzle energy we’re looking at with one of these. 2 ounce-pounds?

        Michael



  11. I bought a (new) Daisy model 25 because it reminded me of my childhood,wow it sure seemed a lot more powerful back when I was a kid. At 55 years old a lot of things seemed better back then and loading those bbs didn’t seem to be such a pain in the neck as it is now. Still fun though.


  12. I just inherited one of these. It looks just like the one in the top photo – all blue with a little speckling/patina from use. It came with a tube of shot just like the second photo. I haven’t shot it. I suppose if I shot it into a pillow the BB would be unharmed? Anyway, I’m looking to list it at http://www.airguns.net/classifieds but I don’t quite know what to ask. Sounds like $100 is the floor, but I saw an old version of this post suggesting that all-blue could go up to $200. Any suggestions? I’m willing to test fire it and send photos.

    I also inherited a no 102 model 36 of the same pre-war vintage (nickel with wood stock). The nickel is very good except on the lever which is rather worn from use (the stories my Dad told…) A little searching suggests $80 for this. Does that sound right?

    Thanks!


    • You’re in need of a blue book just as I have been.
      I finally got one supposed to be here Friday.
      I like the sound of your 102 & have a couple to look up myself. $80 May be a low price on it depending on condition.


  13. Gfwellman,

    Welcome to the blog.

    A blued gun alone is $50-80. The higher prices are for the entire set in the box.

    A tube of shot should bring $15-20 if half full. Ten dollars if the shot is lead.

    Yes, the pillow will work as you say.

    And the price for your 102 sounds right, but it’s always what someone is willing to pay.

    Good luck,

    B.B.


  14. BB, Reb,

    Thanks for the help! Here’s a dumb question – how do I ship the rifle? The pistol would fit in an ordinary priority mail box. I suppose I should take a field trip to the post office to see what they’ve got. Probably shouldn’t walk in with the rifle though – too many people could think it’s a real firearm. 🙂


  15. Can these just wear out? I’ve gotten around to testing the one I inherited. All the original shot is gone, but there was some (presumably) no.6 birdshot in the original daisy shot can. It certainly seems to be the right size. But when I load it and fire it, the shot barely falls out of the muzzle, and that’s if it’s pointed down!

    Is there anything
    a) I’m probably doing wrong
    b) I can do to fix this?

    If not, does the gun still have collectible value (original blued, blue is in great condition)?


    • GFwellman
      Have you looked for where to oil it yet? If not get a magnifying glass or something equivalent and give the thing your best lookover, 30wt nondetergent did the trick on a couple old and weak Daisy 102’s of mine one I had to pull the stock off to get the oil in the right spot with a squeeze bottle syringe. The other responded well enough to just squeezing it down the barrel and oiling hole.
      Haven’t clocked either one yet but when I do I’ll post it on the most current blog.
      This is where I’d normally post a link but I’m not that good on this phone yet but if you run a search on BB gage you’ll probably find it near the top of the results.
      If not try again but add aigun blog.
      Good luck!
      Hope to hear from you there. Of course that old gun is worth something to someone. Do youstill have any of the box?


      • Hi Reb,
        I don’t know where to oil the Targeteer. I unscrewed the part of the barrel that comes off, and it appears to have quite a bit of oil on those threads, but I don’t see an oil hole anywhere.
        Any suggestions?
        Thanks,
        Greg


        • Start with where you Can get it and keep looking for other places, and you’ll find others I’m sure. Like I said I eventually pulled the stock off that one but it even stouter than my RedRyder nnow. There’s a piston inside what represents the action and the folded metal shows the inside contours as well as the outside. The compression chamber ends where the action tapers down to the barrel, concentrate your efforts on the larger diameter behind that point but for now get a few drops where you can pull the muzzle.
          You’re trying to saturate the seal from as many angles as you can get to.
          It may take some timeto soak in but I’m willing to bet it will get better. I wouldn’t disassemble the gun myself but it should have a leather seal and it’s probably acting like a dry cork on a wine bottle but if there’s any left it should swell enough to launch a shot. Hang in there the results will be rewarding!
          Got me wondering if I’m committing one of the seven deadliest here cause I’m almost jealous.


    • Gfwellman,

      When was the last time you oiled the gun? These guns have leather plungers that need to be oiled frequently or their seals won’t work.

      Remove the shot tube and drop 20 drops of household oil down the bore. Then let the gun sit with the muzzle pointed up for several hours. That should do it.

      B.B.


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