This report covers:
- The problem
- One possible solution
- I try to report it
- Some history
- And again
- Handguns too
- Crosman Fire
- Summary
I had a different report ready to write today but a comment made by reader RidgeRunner in answer to a problem reader AirGunnerAmeteur recently reported sent me off in a different direction. Today’s topic is a big deal that newer shooters may not appreciate. How an airgun is held controls a LOT about where the shot lands!
The problem
RidgeRunner made a long comment to AirGunnerAmeteur in an attempt to help him resolve his problem. Here is that problem in AirGunnerAmeteur’s own words, “Has anyone noticed there can be a POI shift with the same gun and pellet tin even when choosing another location on the same target? I recently shot three groups of 10 shots of a given pellet in a given gun (PCP in this case) and all three groups were 3/4″ or less but the average POI varied by as much as 1/2″ from group to group (@ 25 yds.)”
One possible solution
RidgeRunner suggested many things for AGA to check. Among them was the topic of today’s report—how the airgun is held. This is what he said, “There is another possibility that vexed me personally when I first started with airguns. This issue is more with sproingers, but can affect any airgun or firearm. This has to do with the way the airgun is held. I learned by shifting the position of my trigger hand thumb, I was able to move my grouping over an inch at twenty-five yards.”
I try to report it
How a gun is held or rested is critical to where it impacts. It’s so critical that I try always to report how I hold an airgun—both rifles and pistols— in my reports on accuracy. I do this for two reasons. First because I want you to know how I held the airgun so you can try it that way to see if it helps. Second I report how I hold a gun because if I ever want to shoot that gun for accuracy again I’m leaving myself a note on what seemed to work best.
There have been times when I had to re-run an accuracy test months and even years later when I did not report the hold the first time and had to go through everything again to learn what works.
Some history
RidgeRunner said the holding issue is most prevalent with spring-piston airguns and I would agree with that. But don’t think it is only limited to springers because it’s not. I remember once grouping a .458 Winchester Magnum rifle at 100 yards at a rifle range in El Paso. I was putting ten rounds into one inch that day.
And then I wasn’t anymore. Nothing changed that I could see but I was no longer able to put all my shots in the same place.
I said nothing changed, but of course something did change—how I was holding the rifle. I was so focused on the powder charge and the bullet seating depth that I completely overlooked where I rested the stock on my off hand that was resting on the rifle rest. I never solved that problem and eventually sold the rifle, thinking that the barrel was shot out.
What I’m saying is that if I held the rifle in different ways the bullets went to slightly different places on the target. There weren’t several distinct groups; there was just a larger group that made it impossible to see what was being done wrong!
And again
At a different rifle range here in Texas I saw this again. A young man was sighting in his AR-15 and he had the scope’s elevation adjusted so high that the erector tube was floating. The rifle wouldn’t zero. I saw that and helped him shim the scope but then I saw that he wasn’t holding the rifle the same way for every shot.
Fixing the scope issue got the rifle down from 12-inch groups at 100 yards to 6-inch groups, but the changing hold was causing the shots to disperse. The young man had all the help he wanted from the old guy and decided he needed to sell his rifle that wasn’t accurate. Hey, I did the same thing with the .458 Winchester!
Handguns too
I just reported on the accuracy of the Umarex Markpoint pistol. If you read that report you’ll see I reported on how the pistol was rested for every shot. Guys—the hold matters
Crosman Fire
I’ll close with a reminder of the seven-part report I did on the Crosman Fire breakbarrel air rifle back in 2022. In that report series I pretended to be a brand new airgunner who had purchased a Fire breakbarrel rifle and was learning to shoot it by following a guy named BB Pelletier who had a blog on the internet.
There is too much in that series for me to quote here, so AirGunnerAmeteur and all guys and gals who are new to shooting or to airguns, I’ll just recommend reading that entire series. There is good stuff to learn besides the hold, but I discuss the hold in all of the accuracy tests.
Summary
I didn’t anticipate writing today’s report, but I see now that it is needed. I’ll wait to hear from those who try it to learn how effective it has been.
B.B.
Where I rest my HW 50 on the bag makes a difference. Even a two inch difference makes a difference in my POI. As they say, “rinse, repeat,” exactly like you did before. Exactly!!
That is why I love springers. PCP’s does not matter how you hold them….
-Yogi
Yogi,
Well, I would say with PCPs the hold doesn’t matter as much. But in my experience it still matters.
BB
B.B.,
Learning to use a Consistent hold is probably second only in importance to learning to read the WIND and how to adjust the Hold Off or Elevation/Windage clicks correctly at various distances for accuracy.
This is a great topic on a shooting BASIC for everyone to be reminded about.
Erratum: in And again
Second paragraph
“…but the changing hold was causing the shots to disburse.” DISBURSE is a financial term used typically with handling money; and often confused with DISPERSE which is a physical manifestation of things (projectiles) going to different places. I believe you want to use disperse.
shootski
shootski,
Good catch. I fixed it.
Thanks,
BB
But if you waste too many shots trying to achieve optimal accuracy, you will be disbursing in order to replenish your inventory, shootski. Glad for this article – hold is something FM needs to pay more attention to when he starts getting grumpy about how his shooting groups are dispersing.
Thank you Shootski for DISPERSE. I can use it now and be sure what I’m doing 🙂 Because many people use words without understanding them and vice versa 😀
I discovered that the hold is not only a critical factor for the accuracy shooting springers but a global critical factor shooting everything. Also PCP will suprise you if you suddenly change your usual holding technique. Recently I fight for the last zero point something milimeter shooting 10m airrifle – I see a big influence on every small details regarding my hold. Amazing.
Consistency is critical for precision shooting. Consistency in the hold is but one item. There is also consistent sighting eye position, trigger technique, follow through, etc.. But a consistent hold is very important. I was discussing a left handed grip for a target pistol with a college level shooting instructor. The palm shelf is helpful in achieving a consistent hold. There are so many items to think about while trying to achieve consistency. So devices that help to make some of them “automatic” are desirable in my book.
So far most of my shooting has been done from 10-meters off of a portable bench. I do plan to do more offhand shooting. And also to increase distances.
I had discussed the issue I was having with my Gamo CFX with BB at the Roanoke Airgun Show. He responded, much to my horror, by grabbing my air rifle by the scope and giving it a good shake. Thankfully, the scope was securely mounted.
After that little episode, I paid real close attention to what I was doing. It was then that I discovered that where I was placing my thumb had an effect on where the pellet was going. I discovered that by holding my thumb in the vertical position or by wrapping my thumb around the stock I could shift my POI from one point to another.
A little trick I learned was that some shooters will stick a small, clear dot to their stocks where they want their trigger hand thumbs to be. This helps to remind them how to hold that particular rifle. I tried it, it works. I can well imagine this could be done with the front hold also.
A consistent hold is very important no matter what you are shooting. The idea is to eliminate ALL variables. You will find that YOU are the greatest variable.
There will be days that you will find that you will drop into “the zone” with a particular rifle or pistol and cannot seem to miss with it and other days where you cannot seem to hit the broad side of a barn when standing inside with it. Been there, done that. It happens.
Funny thing about that shaking “incident” you mention, RR. Last weekend when mounting the Pentax Gamekeeper scope that had been vexing your friend here on the Maximus .22 “Hunter,” at one point managed to drop the scope which fortunately fell partially on carpet, partially on imitation wood-floor. Don’t know if that loosened something that needed it, like the erector tube, but had no trouble zeroing the scope afterwards. Had given it a few taps here and there in the past seemingly with not much effect, but it works fine now and seems to like being on the Maximus better than on FM’s Ruger 10/22.
Now gotta remember the consistent hold advice and stick to it; honestly have not paid that much attention to thumb placement but believe FM tends to wrap it on the left side of the stock, around the stock neck behind and above the trigger guard. Seems to work but hey, FM is all thumbs!
FM,
Where you stick most of those thumbs is not so much important as long as you stick them in the same place every time. 😉
Practicing any physical activity such that each repetition is exactly identical to the previous takes time, and lots of repetition. Many years ago when I first started running, a marine told me to run a long distance easily and repeatably, I must first learn how to breathe. I thought to myself, “I know how to breathe, teach me how to run”. He slowed his pace to mine and said to watch him breathe for a few minutes. Over the course of a few weeks of twice daily runs with him I finally got my breathing down and was able to run at a 5 minute mile pace for several miles. At that time I added a third run to my daily routine on a course of 3 miles or a longer course of 5 miles. He said with practice you could learn to run at a consistent pace until your body consumed so much of itself that your systems would all start to shutdown. He also stated that for someone in prime physical shape that is far longer than most people would think is possible. Me personally the farthest I ran at the 5 minute mile pace was 10 miles, at that time I felt I could have kept going but I had places I needed to be.
It all starts with doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Until that action is so automatic that no conscious thoughts are required to complete them.
Mike
bmwsmiley,
“…no conscious thoughts…”
Mike, that is the point at which folks will say, he/she makes it look so easy!
Eight hundred plus hours per year of sport specific training is what i keep hearing, over and over, is what it takes to be a World Class competitor at just about anything other than eating, drinking, or sleeping.
shootski
I was in a class when the shooting coach told us that once the basic skills were learned, consistency should be our main focus. “If you watch any “Distinguished” shooter go through preparation to fire a shot, you will notice no difference from shot to shot.” There are so many variables that your brain becomes overloaded, until you practice enough for things to become automatic. Practice, practice! (And practice with purpose, not just throwing lead down range.)
May you be in the zone, and your groups be small.
Bill
I guess we all hold a little different and maybe squeeze the trigger different. I’ve noticed between my family, we all adjust our sights a little different for the same gun to get the best accuracy between each of us. Different strokes for different folks.
B.B. and Readership,
In the previous blog Siraniko wrote: Or what is a reasonable factor of group size multiplication between rested groups and offhand? That is such a great question!
B.B. has written a number of Blogs about learning to shoot both rifles and pistols that have a partial answer buried in them. That answer ranges from downright scary in size to wonderfully small.
Starting REALLY CLOSE works for the move from the bench and supported positions to UN-supported shooting; that is the biggest take away i get from studying them.
You can shoot pistols and rifles from Prone, Sitting, Kneeling and Standing without aids to support the airgun or firearm…just start as close as is safely possible then build your position consistently and when your groups get smaller increase the distance from muzzle to aimpoint.
Most important is to learn to relax into the FLOW that RidgeRunner spoke of above.
Have FUN and don’t beat yourself out of good personal performance.
Personal Bests is what IT is really all about.
shootski
If you can’t find the FUN factor in this hobby or interest, you need another hobby or interest; otherwise the frustration will get to you sooner, not later.
FM,
I was fortunate enough to be on a rifle team while I was in the Army Reserves (the good part of a lifetime ago).
I recall being at a Service Rifle match, having gotten up at 0 dark thirty and eating in the dining hall with my teammates (while the wind and rain were whipping outside). With “first round down range at 0700” and preparing to go to the range, a fellow shooter turned to me and said “I think that this is kind of like farming, if you didn’t love to do it, they couldn’t pay you enough to do it.”
I truly enjoy the shooting sports!
(And the people that contribute to this blog!)
Bill
billj,
Those are the kind of days that are perfect for practicing your PRONE shooting!
shootski
Shootski,
My coach used to tell a story to illustrate the difference between pistol, smallbore, and service rifle shooters.
There is a large puddle, on the range.
The pistol shooter sees it, lifts his gear a little higher and steps over it.
The smallbore shooter looks at the puddle, gets a notebook out of his gear, starts to write in it and says “I’ll have to talk to the match director about this.”
The service rifle shooter walks up, looks at the puddle, says “This must be my shooting point.” and throws his gear down in the puddle.
(Yeah, they used to talk about “infantry weather” too.)
Bill
billj,
Those are the reasons why i chose to go Navy…get to sleep in a warm place on clean sheets, eat hot food, and then go out and try NOT to get killed. Unfortunately the Navy made me part of Special Opps on occasion that made me exist in worse conditions than the Army Infantry types suffered. Fortunately those experiences were of high intensity and short duration; no need/time to sleep and the C-RATS almost tasted good.
shootski
“How an airgun is held”
BB,
Yes, yes, yes! This is so critical!
It took a long time for me to figure out, for each air rifle and air pistol, how it wants to be held in order to shine.
The Tempest gets a very firm grip; the Crosman 1322 gets the opposite, the very lightest grip.
The Haenel model 1 and HW30S both get the artillery hold, but on the Haenel the my left hand has to rest under the pivot screw, while on the HW30S it must rest under the forward stock screw.
Every airgun has its favorite way to be held…and only LOTS of shooting will tell you what that is. 😉
Blessings to you,
dave
I went Antelope hunting with a friend of mine. He shoots 2″ groups at 100 yards sighting in. I have been deer and elk hunting with him. He has shot 4 deer 2 elk all with one shot.
I told him antelope tend to be 200 to 250 yard shots. I was spotting for him he missed 10 shots in a row:-) I happen to look over at him when he was going to take a shot. I yelled stop (he was using shooting sticks for the first time and resting the barrel on the sticks). I said try resting the stock by the action on the sticks. Boom I worked on the next shot he had his antelope.
Not sure where the first shots were going but for sure not where he was aiming. Just had his Italian antelope sausage last night on spaghetti:-)
Wow! An article inspired by me! Thanks BB! I wonder what we’ll need to explore regarding precision and accuracy when we start shooting lethal laser weapons?!?!?
AirGunnerAmeteur,
“…what we’ll need to explore regarding precision and accuracy when we start shooting lethal laser weapons?!?!?”
NOT shooting at a mirror!
You could shoot BOTH your eyes out! : 0
shootski
So, everyone agrees that hold is of utmost importance. First in finding the best hold and second in repeating it.
I don’t hear any reason why. My best guess is that the slightest change in hold, or positioning, will change the way the airgun reacts to recoil. The reason PCPs don’t behave the same as springers, they basically have none.
Now I think there may be a limitation on the effective range a particular hold works best at.
Could there be another combination of resting and hold that perform better at a longer distance for example? Probably not but what about a change in the pellet used?
There obviously are many other things that will come into play that affect accuracy, but hold is today.
For example, would a heavy slug actually change the recoil and require a different hold?
Bob M,
You wrote: “The reason PCPs don’t behave the same as springers, they basically have none.”
Do you mean RECOIL? I was having my Fish n’ Chips while i read that…and unfortunately i had just reached for my beer my laugh blew the head right off of my O’Hara’s Irish Stout®
You need to shoot a DAQ .458 or the .575 and then tell me that PCPs don’t have any.
I believe the change in hold effects the harmonics of the entire gun but most of all the barrel and that changes the dispersion bias.
Also YES on the heavier projectile changing the recoil as explained by Newton’s Third Law of Motion.
The springers have the projectile, the spring, and the piston all abiding by Newton’s 3rd. in two directions and the torque of the spring to boot; so that is why they are worse in recoil taming as best i see it.
shootski
shootski
Shootski,
Put down your beer before reading this !
I cant say I’m surprised to receive a reply from you. You are on top of everything. Yes recoil.
OK you got me. There are exceptions. I have a PCP powered PVC sabot pipe bazooka that has recoil too.
It probably dumps a cubic foot or so of 100psi air in less than a half second.
What percent of the worlds PCP airgun population is the DAQ? I’ve never seen one myself. Hardly worth including as an exception.
At least you got a good laugh. Sorry about the beer mess.
Just realized there are big bore hunters as well with recoil.
Bob M,
My beer bib caught most of it ;^)
On the DAQ population…maybe 0.00001% similar to Girardoni population in the day. (Never thought of that fact before! Thank You Shipmate.)
But AirForce and a few others might make up 0.001%
shootski