The FATS by itself.
This report covers:
- JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—no silencer
- JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—Ronin silencer
- JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—TalonP silencer
- My observation
- JSB Jumbo Monster-no-silencer
- JSB Jumbo Monster-Ronin
- JSB Jumbo Monster-TalonP
- What have se learned?
- A little surprise
- How much power?
- Summary
Today we’ll pick up the test of the Condor Fast Attachment Thread System (FATS) where we left off. This will be another larger report, so let’s get started.
We will look at the two other pellets that were tested and how the silencers affected accuracy. We already know this rifle is very accurate.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—no silencer
The next pellet I tried after the 18.1-grain JTS Dead Center Dome was the 18.13-grain JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy. With no silencer the Condor put 5 of them into a 0.123-inch group at 25 yards. It was the smallest group of this test by far, but I used the dime comparison coin when I should have used the gold dollar.
When no silencer was used the Condor put 5 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets into a phenomenal 0.123-inch group at 25 yards. This Condor is extremely accurate! Now let’s see what the silencers do.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—Ronin silencer
With the Ronin on the rifle the group opened up to 0.451-inches between centers. Wow! What a difference. I did not expect that!
With the Ronin attached the Condor put 5 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets into 0.451-inches at 25 yards. It’s almost 4 times larger than the group shot with no silencer.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy—TalonP silencer
Now I removed the Ronin and the FATS threaded bushing and attached the TalonP silencer. Would it be better than the Ronin? It wasn’t.
With the TalonP silencer attached the Condor put 5 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets into a group that measured 0.636-inches between centers. It’s larger than the Ronin group. What’s happening?
With the TalonP silencer attached the Condor put five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets into a 0.636-inch group at 25 yards.
After this test I examined both silencers for signs of lead clipping the edges on the bodies but none were found. The TalonP silencer can doesn’t even have real baffles—it’s filled with open-cell foam.
My observation
I’ve only tested two pellets thus far but the results tell me that not all pellets are suited to be shot through a silencer. Many years ago when I tested the accuracy of .22 rimfire ammo shot through a silencer I found the same thing—sometimes the groups got smaller and other times they grew.
JSB Jumbo Monster-no-silencer
The Condor is a powerful air rifle so I figured the 25.39-grain JSB Jumbo Monster pellet might be worth a try. When I shot five in the Condor with no silencer they made a 0.286-inch group at 25 yards. That’s not bad.
When fired with no silencers the Condor put 5 JSB Jumbo Monster into a 0.286-inch group at 25 yards.
JSB Jumbo Monster-Ronin
Next was the Ronin silencer. With it the Condor put 5 into 0.841-inches at 25 yards. It’s the largest group of the test.
With the Ronin mounted the Condor made a 5-shot group of JSB Monsters that measures 0.841-inches between centers
JSB Jumbo Monster-TalonP
And when the TalonP was mounted the group came in at 0.295—the smallest group with this pellet.
With the TalonP silencer the Condor put 5 JSB Monsters into 0.295-inches. That’s not that bad!
What have we learned?
We’ve learned that the FATS works well with these two silencers. We have also learned that these two silencers do different things, depending on the pellet being shot.
In addition we have also learned that this AirForce Condor is extremely accurate at 25 yards. And there is one more thing.
A little surprise
The AirForce range is set up with a chronograph in line with the rifle being tested. I was able to test the velocity of my 21-year-old Condor that still has the original air tank and valve with the original o-ring.
So here is the velocity of the JTS pellet for the first 19 shots (includes some sight-in shots), on power setting 10.
JTS 18.1-grain dome
Shot…….Vel
1………….1099
2………….1102
3………….1097
4………….1095
5………….1075
6………….1066
7………….1060
8………….1042
9………….1034
11………..1028
12………..1023
13………..1019
14………..1019
15………..1015
16………..1016
17………..1010
18………..1007
19………..1005
Well, a velocity spread of 97 f.p.s. over 19 shots doesn’t look like the good air management I remembered! So I ran the test again when the JSB Jumbo Heavy pellet was fired.
JSB 18.13-grain dome
Shot…….Vel
1………….1086
2………….1103
3………….1104
4………….1108
5………….1101
6………….1106
7………….1101
8………….1103
9………….1107
10………..1103
11………..1096
12………..1095
13………..1095
14………..1097
15………..1089
But a spread of 22 f.p.s. over 15 shots is about what I remembered. My Condor tank that has held air for 21 years had not been used for at least 6 years but more probably over 8. I think my valve needed to “wake up” after being unused for so many years. Isn’t it nice that an American-made air reservoir still holds air after 21 years and still work after a wake-up?
How much power?
With the JTS pellet at around 1100 f.p.s. the Condor was developing 48.64 foot pounds of energy. The 18.13-grain JSB was in the same ballpark. This is not atom-smashing energy, but it is all you need for a great hunting rifle.
Summary
Now I have the Condor paired with a good scope and I know a couple good pellets. Guess what I can do? Yep—I can either shoot groups at 100 yards or I can swap out my old tank and valve for a new one. Whadda ya think?
B.B.,
Barrel harmonic effects are interesting aren’t they?
Does this “Yep–I can either shoot groups at 100 yards or I can swap out my old tank and valve for a new one.”
really need to be an either-or situation?
Please shoot a 10 shot group at 100 with at least the best performing projectile.
shootski
shootski,
I’m hopefully doing that today.
BB
B.B.
Was Part 3 also shot at high power? I just reread it and you said it was set at low. However, you did not say if you changed it.
I bet that those moderators are clipping the pellets at high velocity.
Do both! Shoot at 100 yards and them shoot again with the new tank. Please.
-Yogi
How about to prove the artillery hold, you test a springer while held by that vice? I assume that it is strong enough to hold the springer firm while it is cocked? Since I started in springer airguns all I have heard is that they can not be shot from a vice. Please prove it!!!! Thanks.
Have a great weekend everybody!
Yogi,
The power setting was 10 for all the groups shown in both Parts 3 and 4.
As for the springer in a vise, I need to give that some thought.
BB
Also, please try shooting your Condor at around 925 fps. That is what the PCP shooters at the range say is near the sweet spot usually.
-W
Yogi,
Wow! Now that is something I never considered. Again, I will think about it,
BB
BB
What Yogi said!
Bill,
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
BB
Tom,
Maybe I missed something in the installation of the FATS but as Shootski says harmonics is interesting. Is there a difference in the way you can install the silencers by the way if torque? From the initial test with no silencer installed it seems this barrel likes to be free. Is there a way to adjust the tension of attachment?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I don’t see how I can change the tension of the barrel with the silencers. But there is something I can do— shoot with and without the FATS installed.
BB
Siraniko,
Tubular (barrel) vibration, resonance, and harmonics are an interesting field without even adding projectile launching into the mix. When you add a projectile traveling down the bore of the tube it becomes a mathematical nightmare!
First you need to know if you should consider your tube (barrel) open-open, open-closed, or closed-closed or all/some of the above at any given point in the shot cycle.
The all this happens:
Resonance and Vibration
Oscillations have a way of sneaking up on people, particularly when one movement is compounded by another.
How does resonance affect vibration? Machinery vibration is a ratio of forces to stiffnesses. Either the changes in forces, or the changes in stiffnesses, can affect the vibration amplitude. If the vibration frequency coincides with the natural frequency of the machine, only the damping inherent in the machine (structure) will constrain the amplitude of vibration.
The Problem of Frequency
What is the difference between resonance and vibration? It is not that there is a difference between resonance and vibration, rather that resonance occurs when the forcing function (vibration) of the barrel coincides with the natural frequency of the airgun, and the only restraint in the system, is damping. So, resonance is a special form of vibration, where the vibration is equal to the natural frequency of the machine. The natural frequency being defined by the square root of the ratio system stiffness divided by system Mass.
Avoiding Resonance in Rotating and Reciprocating Machines
“Industrial settings can be rife with resonance, and unfortunately, the force is easily misdiagnosed as a mass imbalance when it’s really a change in system stiffness. If you want to avoid resonance, here are a few tips:
● Adjust the natural frequency: There are times when you can change them. Adding stiffeners and or lowering mass, can increase the natural frequency. Likewise, reducing stiffness and increasing mass, can lower the natural frequency.
● Add dampers: The purpose of a damper is to increase the damping of the overall system. When resonance occurs, the increase in damping reduces the amplitude of the vibration. You might have a few options if you want to implement this solution, and it’s important to account for the absorption strength of each potential system.”
This solution is likely the best strategy if you’re working with a barrel that has a very stable speed. Do you know of a powerplant-barrel-projectile(s) combination that has a VERY stable Muzzle Velocity? We aren’t even going to discuss the projectiles acceleration profile from the breech to the muzzle.
These tips may sound simple in theory, but they’re rarely easy to implement in practice. Any variability can work against even the best-laid plans. For instance, adding mass to a barrel, may lower the natural frequency, but it also increases the load on the barrel structure. To compensate for the increased load, one may add a support to increase the stiffness, which increases the natural frequency, which is the opposite of what you want to accomplish. Careful consideration needs to be made when making ANY change to the airgun system; to include how you hold the airgun as well as how big the vice is you might use. Or installing the FATS then hanging or not suppressor(s) of varying Mass on the end of the barrel.
Barrel dampers/tuners are available but how many folks take the time to learn how to properly use them? How few folks use them is an indication of the can of worms they quickly become.
shootski
BB,
If you continue to shoot your Condor as often as you have in the past, I would forget a new tank. Nice but not necessary.
Bob,
I agree, but a LOT of readers have asked for it. I’m curious, too.
BB
I’m curious, too.
Lots of work.
100yds with and without FATS.
on high power and “low”
with original tank and new tank.
Whew. It would take me days and days.
rk,
Fortunately for you it will only take 5-6 minutes for a read. 😉
BB
BB
Please run the springer in the vice test Yogi asked for. I’m theorizing more and more that hold consistency may be more important than one that allows the springer to go where it wants in the shooting cycle. Pick an accurate rifle in the power range of a FWB 124 or Sport. Your ASP20 comes to mind if it’s seal is repaired.
A test may also suggest that one springer may like the vice while others don’t. I do have that one rifle that demands a strangle hold. Dr Beeman may have had some rifles that liked a firm hold.
Deck
I tend to agree with Yogi regarding the velocity. My understanding is that the trans-sonic velocities will cause a lot of turbulence, etc. And perhaps that is affecting the size of the groups.
B.B.
This is a good example of the nature of science evolution. A good test like this one answers a bunch of questions and always there are some unexpected effects that generate new theories. More testing is needed, repeating the cycle but in a higher step in the knowledge ladder.
And speaking of wild theories, here goes mine: perhaps the higher air volume that goes together with the higher pellet speeds generates so much turbulence inside the suppressors that results in the lower performance of the Condor with them installed.
Henry
Henry,
I read something about that someplace. Given the opportunity, the air in a moderator can pass up the projectile and affect it. Sounds possible with a hollow tube lined with foam. Especially if the foam moves around some to affect the air flow pattern.
Henry_TX,
Ah!!! The science of SEND MORE MONEY and we will be able to test our newly found theories ;^)
Hopefully the answer to your wild theory about turbulence inside the suppressor…could be…but hopefully the volume of air in the bore in front of the projectile is accounted for by the suppressor designer and mitigated or at least held constant for the given parameters.
Most of my suppressors have increased precision but the why certainly is an unknown. Some folks agree that repeatability is better and some folks complain about the negative changes in accuracy with suppression.
I could test this IF i received enough funding to run some extensive testing… ;^)
I actually think this is a similar situation to the Magic pellet selection testing we all know and love…just way more expensive!
shootski