Does the pellet matter? Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

A couple weeks ago we had several comments that said there are people who believe all pellets are the same, and it doesn’t matter what you shoot in your airgun. Then others chimed in and said the same is true for .22 rimfire ammo. Well, I started a test of .22 rimfire ammo last week and hope to finish it soon, but today I thought I’d start exploring the pellet side of the question.

Today was supposed to be a first look at the accuracy of the BSA Supersport SE; but for the first time that I can remember, I couldn’t get the open sights on target at 25 yards! I didn’t want to fool with the rifle for a long time, so I set it aside and picked up my super-accurate Beeman R8 Tyrolean. That’s a rifle I know I can count on.

My original plan was to buy .177 pellets from wally world and pit them against the best premium pellets I have; but since this was a last-minute test, I just selected some pellets from my supplies. I made this a Part 1 because I still intend doing what was planned.

Today, we’ll look at 4 pellets. Two are what I consider premium, though one of them is pointed and I usually don’t shoot pointed pellets for accuracy. That should be interesting.

The other 2 pellets are ones I actually bought at a discount store some time ago. They’re representative of what’s out there right now. One’s a wadcutter; but since I’m shooting indoors at 25 yards, I felt it might still do its best. The other is a pointed pellet that Crosman made for Remington several years ago. These 2 pellets are the ones I believe will not do well.

I shot the rifle at 25 yards rested directly on a sandbag, which I’ve determined works well for this gun. In the entire test, there were no called fliers.

Air Arms Falcon
The first pellet I tested was the Falcon from Air Arms. It’s made by JSB on dies owned by Air Arms, so there’s no equivalent JSB pellet. There are several that look similar, but testing shows they perform differently. Ten Falcons went into a group that measures 0.667 inches between centers. You can see a single pellet hole to the right of the main group. That was the third shot. Nine of the 10 pellets went into 0.399 inches.

Falcon group
This group of 10 Air Arms Falcon pellets measures 0.667 inches between centers, but 9 of them are in 0.399 inches at 25 yards.

RWS Superpoints
I normally don’t recommend pointed pellets for accuracy; but 25 yards isn’t that far, and RWS pellets are certainly in the premium category. I didn’t expect RWS Superpoints to do as well as the Falcons…and they didn’t. But they were close! Ten made a group measuring 0.732 inches. Once again, one pellet was outside the main group, and 9 pellets went into 0.43 inches

RWS Superpoint group
These 10 RWS Superpoint pellets surprised me by going into 0.732 inches. And 9 went into 0.43 inches.

Now, it was time to test the 2 pellets in which I didn’t have any faith. I still tried as hard as possible to shoot the best group. Frankly, I’m surprised they did as well as they did!

Daisy Precision Max wadcutter
The next pellet was a older pellet I had that is similar to the Daisy Precision Max wadcutter – a flat-nosed target pellet. I didn’t expect it to do much, but 10 of them went into a group measuring 0.804 inches. And, to be fair, 9 of them are in 0.591 inches. While that’s not great for this particular rifle, it’s a lot better than I expected.

Daisy Precision Max group
Ten Daisy Precision Max wadcutters made a larger group at 25 yards, but it wasn’t as big as I expected. This group measures 0.804 inches, with 9 pellets in 0.591 inches.

Remington pointed pellets
The last pellet I tried was one Remington sold for many years, but one that Crosman made. So, it has a sort of premium heritage, though the discount store pellets that Crosman sells (which is where I got this tin) are not normally as good as the ones they make for their cardboard boxes — by which I mean Premiers, of course. I didn’t know what to expect from these pellets. Ten went into 0.821 inches, which is better than I expected, and 8 of them went into a group that measures 0.402 inches. That’s hard to argue with.

Remington pointed group
Ten Remington pointed pellets made this 0.821-inch group. Eight went into 0.402 inches.

The results?
This test worked as expected, but it wasn’t as conclusive as I’d hoped it would be. Clearly, I need to look harder into these discount store pellets.

The Beeman R8 rifle is really an accurate platform that makes all these pellets look good. I think it’s a great testbed, but I won’t rule out trying the same test with a different rifle at a later date.

I could run the test at 50 yards, and the groups would all open up a lot — but that isn’t what I’m testing. Most airgunners don’t often shoot at 50 yards. I think 25 yards is more representative of what they do most of the time. I think I’ll just stick to the original plan of buying some representative pellets at a discount store and pitting them against the best premium pellets I have.

307 Responses to “Does the pellet matter? Part 1”

  • Chris @ Crosman Says:

    This seems more like a testimony for finding a rare good barrel, set in a good action, that is tuned for minimizing velocity variation and mount it in a stock that can help shrink parallax than a pellet test. ;-)

    Reality is that these inherently accurate guns, (powder burners and air guns on any platform) like the R8, are rare but it’s common that shooters let them get away because they don’t know better (are average shooters) and/or have an insatiable appetite for the next best thing that sometimes makes them sell these rarities and move on to the next hyped introduction. These shooters, almost without exception, regret these sales of their rare, accurate guns. Too late then. Whole reason for my post!

    Don’t believe in hype. Each model of every gun can be good and can be bad. That’s mass production. When you get a good one have enough shooting talent and intestinal fortitude to recognize it no matter what the reviewers and your “know it all” gun friends say. Then…keep the gun because they don’t come around often.

    No matter what the reviews say.

    kevin

    • buldawg76 Says:

      Chris
      I agree with you that most average shooters don’t realize what they had till it to late. This is not meant to be a testimonial for crosman, but I have owned a 1968 first variant model 1400 since I bought it at the ripe age of ten with my saved lunch money. That 1400 was my main gun for shooting anything that moved in the thousand islands of Cocoa Beach FL canal/island systems. This gun hit everything I aimed at if I did my part and was a very deadly weapon for the raccoons, rabbits and squirrels I encountered as well as birds. I still own this gun and will hand it down to my grand kids when the time is right. It saw very little to no regular maintenance as a ten year old to late teenager worth of use. the only time it was cleaned or oiled was after a accidental drop into the brackish water of the canals we hunted around. it has sat in my closet for probably 30 years until about 9 month ago when it was time to start my grandson about gun safety and shooting. when inspecting and preparing the gun for use after storage I found that due the untold thousands of pellets that was shot through it for 10 to 12 years while growing up I found that the barrel had no rifling left in it and appeared to resemble a shotgun barrel although it still would pump up and fire as remembered it was not as accurate as I remembered it to be. Since a new barrel was likely non existent 45 years later I took a new discovery 24 inch barrel to my gunsmith and had him move the breech hold down screw location to match up with the location of the breech screw on the 1400 pump tube so as not to alter the gun from original condition and installed a metal front barrel and pump arm mount from a older model 760. I did have to drill a new pump arm pivot hole in the 760 barrel mount to line up with the 1400 pivot pin location. Even though it really did not need resealed while I did a new barrel upgrade I also resealed the valve and made some mods for more volume of air in the valve along with some spring changes to allow for full exhausting of all air in the valve regardless of number of pumps ( no valve lock at all) and replaced pump cup also and I can say that this gun is as accurate as I remember if not more due the extra 4 inches of barrel length. at 20 pumps it is averaging 950 to 1000 FPS. This gun has much sentimental value as well as very fun to shoot due to being so accurate. the only down fall to it with valve mods is it requires more pumps to achieve the same velocities as with stock valve but has a very nasty muzzle report that makes me smile with every shot. it will also build my grandsons arms up to gorilla size in no time cause the rule is if you can’t pump it you can’t shoot it and he does not see not shooting as an acceptable choice.

  • edlee Says:

    Was that a dig at BBs reviewing prowess, Chris???
    Ed

    • Chris @ Crosman Says:

      edlee,

      Not hardly.

      Just a general observation from someone that has shot a lot of different airguns from many different era’s.

  • RidgeRunner Says:

    Those were indeed some pretty nice groups. Most sproingers would be proud to produce anything like those, no matter what pellet. I want to see what it will do with THE pellet.

    As for those who feel that it doesn’t matter what pellets you use, you are going to have a most difficult time convincing the Olympic shooting teams of that, or me for that matter. When I pull out one of my airguns to shoot some, I usually pull out my ammo can of pellets with it and most often will shoot several different ones. It is not unusual for me to shoot eight or ten different pellets in a session, most often even pellets I know that will not do worth doodly. That way I confirm what is best for that particular airgun. The CFX I used to own liked four different pellets, but THE pellet it preferred was the H&N FTT 4.52mm.

    As for .22 ammo, really. You must have very low expectations to believe different .22 ammo all shoots the same. When my son-in-law bought his Henry carbine, we bought five different brands to try out. At 25 yards, four of them produced groups over an inch. Two of them were over two inches. One produced groups that would almost hide under a dime. Hopefully, we will try some other brands this Spring. The search continues.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      RR,

      I think the Falcon is THE pellet for this rifle. I was just off a little bit this day. Anyway, it will get a second chance when I shoot against the store-bought discount ammo in an upcoming test.

      I have already shot the .22 test halfway and I have gotten similar results, though not quite as large a swing. But remember, I shoot 10 shot-groups that will be about 40 percent larger than 5-shot groups most of the time.

      B.B.

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        I too prefer ten shot groups. I don’t do it for bragging. I do it for knowledge. How well does this gun perform with what. More often that not that hypervelocity stuff is worthless in both firearms and airguns. What good is 500+FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at? So many people fail to grasp that.

        • RifledDNA Says:

          I forget what shooting mag it was in, maybe RF, but the writer did some serious testing and calculating to show that a ten shot group was most accurately representative of what that gun will do with that ammo. It all made such since that unless its a quick scope check I only shoot ten if its a new pellet or trying to record groups or anything else besides zero checks. I do three shot groups on the zero checks only because in the field it the first shot that counts. Real paper punchin takes ten. Plus I feel like its wasting targets if I only put five shots on it.

          • RidgeRunner Says:

            You should do the ten shot groups for zero check so you will have a better idea whether the scope is still in the center of the grouping.

            • RifledDNA Says:

              For actually zeroing I must shoot a dozen ten shot groups, but if I know its already zeroed and Im just picking up that day it’ll be 3 or 5 shots and then I’ll run groups, or run a couple groups and then get out to the 30yard woods session.

    • edlee Says:

      Getting ahold of ANY 22 ammo has become quite an ordeal,, and what is available has literally tripled in price in the last year. certainly ought to bring quite a few of the invisible airgunners out in the open.
      Ed

      • SAPHA1772236 Says:

        That’s why lately I’ve been saying firearms are impractical for most of my uses. And besides, I’m pretty sure my .177 Discovery is more accurate than any firearm I’ve ever shot.

        • RidgeRunner Says:

          I can’t say that about any air rifle I have shot. However, that is because I used to reload. Now using store bought ammo, you are doing good to get even close to 1 MOA.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    BB
    This could be a good dangerous blog if you know what I mean. And a good one for a Friday weekend blog at that.

    I know a few people here has heard me call pellets by this name in the past so here it goes again.

    Magical mystery flying metal.

    Look at the pellet. All the different shapes. All the different head sizes. The skirt thickness. The shape of the waist and diameter. The different weights available for each specific caliber.

    Now take all the variables that I just mentioned plus more that I didn’t mention about pellets and combine that to all the variables that different power plants throw into the equation. (PCP, pump, Co2, spring guns, nitro piston guns)

    First thing I have to say if the type of pellet doesn’t matter then why would somebody have dreamed up all the different types there are.

    Second thing is if you don’t think it matters and your shooting a such and such size group with your gun now you may think its good for the type of shooting your doing. And you might of got lucky and got a good pellet that your gun likes. But how would you know if that’s the best pellet if you only shot that one brand/type of pellet. I think a person will be mighty surprised when they decide to give some other pellets a chance.

    And third pellets are relatively cheap compared to fire arm ammo. Well the pellets can get a bit costly for certain types of pellets. And as the old saying goes. You get what you pay for.

    And last thing when you do decide to start trying some different pellets and you come across that Magical pellet and now all of sudden that gun pops one pellet on top of the other. And its like you just can’t miss anything you shoot at. You will be having a nice big smile on your face every time you go out and shoot your airgun.

    The name of the game for me when I talk airguns is accuracy. I know there are fire arms out there that are accurate. But with airguns I just expect it. And I try my darnedest to make sure that happens with my airguns that I have. And it doesn’t matter if its the cheapest airgun I have or the most expensive airgun I have. Its going to be accurate when I’m through with it.

    • RidgeRunner Says:

      GF1,
      Don’t get me wrong here, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.

      The main reason for them always coming up with different shapes and sizes of pellets is the same reason they are always dreaming up different models of airguns. “This is the latest and greatest thing there is! Buy it NOW!” On occasion they even get it right.

      BB,
      On this note, a few days ago you commented that Weirauch had not come out with anything really new for quite some time now. My thoughts on this is if you are already making what by just about everyone’s opinion is the best, how do you top it? If you can take it to a higher level, great! Just be sure you don’t end up taking a step down. Right now about the only thing they could do to improve their lineup would be to give them all figured walnut stocks.

      • twotalon Says:

        RR

        HW could do quite a bit to improve their guns.
        They could start by using spring guides that fit so it won’t take a Vortek kit to squelch the buzz.
        They could use a different lube other than that thick grease that gets thicker and stickier over time.
        They could use different piston seals that don’t drag and kill the velocity unless you oil them every 50 shots or so.
        They could undroop the break barrels .
        They could do something about the articulated cocking links that gall the under side of the compression tube.

        twotalon

        • David H Says:

          TT & RR,

          Having a .177 HW95 and a .20 R9 I completely agree that Weihrauch can do a better job on their powerplants. If they only did the first thing on your list it would be a major improvement. Don’t get me wrong though, overall I do like both of mine, especially the accuracy.

          David H

        • RifledDNA Says:

          Ouch! That’s a pretty dirty list of laundry for such expensive guns, but people still sing their praises because of their accuracy, so my question is do they even out you think, or are they just overpriced?

          • twotalon Says:

            RDNA

            I don’t think that HWs are really over priced that much. They make a pretty well made rifle compared to many others, but there are certain things that they are persistent about not fixing. You fix those things yourself , and you are good to go ….and probably for a long time.
            Some of those things are not all that easy to take care of , but it is worth the effort.
            They could also stand to watch their barrels a bit closer . Once on a while a bad one will slip through.

            twotalon

            • RifledDNA Says:

              That’s why I asked if you thought they were overpriced, we often talk about some guns being overpriced and wondered if you thought the HWs were one of them with all the problems that wet were listed.

          • kevin Says:

            European/German guns are expensive. They’re not overpriced.

            We need to take ALL factors into account that determine pricing in the USA. Recent changes in export laws related to shipping guns to the US has added cost. The dollar is weak and we can’t blame that on the Weihrauch factory or anyone else but ourselves. Although the Euro has fallen in the past 30 days it still closed on Friday at $1.36 vs $1.00 US.

            The US dollar doesn’t buy as much anymore and one of the results is that overseas goods climb in price and ultimately appear overpriced to US consumers even though the factory price has not changed.

            kevin

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        RR,

        In a world where the Walther LGV and TX 200 Mari III exist, Weihrauch can do better.

        B.B.

        • Edith Gaylord Says:

          There are gun companies that are extremely innovative, yet lots of airgunners gripe about those innovative guns & technologies. Then there are companies like Weihrauch, which don’t do a lot of innovation, but they produce high-quality, accurate guns. Isn’t that what’s it’s all about?

          I don’t understand the complaints just because a company doesn’t innovate. Also, when the old standards are gone and new ones come along, airgunners everywhere bemoan the fact that these old favorites…the ones that aren’t part of today’s innovation…are now gone and available only on the used market.

          Sounds like manufacturers really can’t win. If they innovate and get rid of the old standards, people complain. If they don’t innovate, people complain. Either way, they lose.

          Edith

          • buldawg76 Says:

            EDITH I agree with you because there is an old saying that states “you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all the people all the time” ring true in this case. It can also be some changes occur do to cost issues rather than customers complaints/comments. I believe in the rule of if it aint broke don’t fix it. And newer is not always better because i know for a fact from my days work with Harley in research and development that the engineers are always being badgered by marketing and financial departments to make the same parts work and last as long at a cheaper price to manufacture and assemble. it is always a no win scenario as suppliers may raise prices and the engineers are tasked with cutting cost elsewhere to keep the final costs the same. It happened in 2004 with Harley with their left side engine crankshaft bearings which have been a pair of Timken tapered roller bearings to control crankshaft radial and lateral movement of the crank since the early thirties. In 2004 Timken raised the price for these bearings by 20 cents a bearing and Harley was unwilling to pay the price increase times 400,000 motorcycles and therefore the engineers had to find a bearing that would do the same job for the same price and the result was a straight roller bearing from INA bearing company and we had nothing but problems from this bearing change because it could not provide the same control of crank movement in the case. So they actually spent more money on research and development for this new bearing to get tolerances to the point that the crank did not move around any more than the original Timken bearing allowed and in the end that cost far out weight what they would have spent if they just stuck with the Timken bearings that had worked for eighty plus years. If it aint broke don’t fix it.

        • Titus Groan Says:

          BB
          I have also been thinking about Weihrauch’s roll as a leader in designing and developing new technology for their air guns in today’s competitive market. I recently broke down and purchased the Weihrauch HW77 Premium in .22cal. I must say the new ambidextrous laminated stock is a thing of beauty. Much nicer then any other Weihrauch in my gun case. It feels great to hold, with nice curves in all the right places. It will also shoot 1/2 to 3/4 in groups at 25 meters. So, whats the problem then? Well,the big downside is when you remove the stock, it is the same gun as my older HW77, and HW97. The only thing Weihrauch did was design a new stock. I feel a bit ripped off in a way. When Walther came out with their new LGV series, it contained ground breaking technology. In other words, they designed a new gun from the ground up. In reply, I had been expecting Weihrauch to step up to the plate with something new to offer customers. Instead, Weihrauch continues to rest on past laurels since they came out with the original HW77 over 25 years ago. Before that, it was the Beeman R1, or HW80. My feeling is that if you are considered a leader in the air gun industry, you owe it to your customers to continue to improve the breed, so to speak. Repackaging old technology in glitzy new stocks does not cut the mustard in my opinion.
          Ciao
          Titus

          • B.B. Pelletier Says:

            Titus,

            And that is exactly what I was trying to say. Not that Weihrauch isn’t a good builder, but they are no longer a leader like they once were.

            B.B.

            • chris in ct Says:

              I think Weihrauch as the best spring airgun maker. They have the biggest line up in spring guns and caliber. Second is Air Arms because of deeper bluing finish but not overall selection. Diana is a close third. If it ain’t broken don’t fix it. K.I.S.S(keep it simple stupid) was a expression back in the day.

    • RifledDNA Says:

      I know exactly what you mean, before getting serious and testing different pellets I thought that Cphp would group perfectly if the gun was perfectly accurate. Needless to say all the guns I shot cphps out of, I never found which was more accurate but which ones shot the cphps better! They were the only pellets sitting on the shelves so I thought they were the only pellet that mattered. That brings up a sad truth about market cornering and lack of availability to new airgunners don’t it?

      • Reb Says:

        The chain stores should really start selling samplers! They have no idea how much impact it would have on their sales,our sport, shooter pleasure and overall advancement of airgun shooting. When you shoot a gun that is accurate you tend to shoot it more, sometimes exponentially more, because it’s fun! That’s where their sales come into the equation. More fun=More money, simple!

        • RifledDNA Says:

          I think the problem with the chain stores is that while the sell a ridiculous amount of AG stuff -across the board- each store only sells a couple maybe what? A month? The profit must come only because of the huge quantity of product and bulk rate from the couple brands. If each store had all the different pellets they would sell but it would sky rocket the overhead in that department and really might not change sales at all because most departmentstore shoppers will probably grabbed the cheapest pellets anyway. We really have to remember how small a percentage of airgun products sold are to the truly devoted. We’re the invisible airgunners, remember?

          • Reb Says:

            That’s Why I made the comment. I hope the right person sees it and figures out a way to use it to Their advantage, as well. As the most consumable product and easiest tuning aid, I consider the pellet to be the 2nd most valuable resource, in our sport, right behind the gun!

            • Reb Says:

              Can I get an Amen?!

              • RifledDNA Says:

                Yeah, oh yeah, that’s a big ten four. Because finding the right pellet to shoot is a must for any airgun its probably more important then the gun for accuracy. The gun itself will just determine the power if you make pellet selection a priority. Of course trigger function and lock time and stuff like that are set by the gun, but the shooter can compensate for those. There’s no compensation for shooting the wrong pellet, they just won’t do what you tell em.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        RDNA
        Speaking of testing have you came up with a good pellet for you new break barrel yet?

        • Reb Says:

          Only got to test 5 pellets before I was called out CPHP so far is the tightest.By the way, it’s a B-36-1, so an underlever fixed barrel,way more powerful than I first suspested. this gun may be still breaking in, due to the smell. I don’t think anyone really ever shot it because it’s firing cycle is so brutal. I took it with me yesterday for some pest control at the jobsite, even though not sighted in. Bagged one right off the bat! The rest kept their distance after that, making me chase ‘em down. the client was very appreciative for at least running them off, and for fixing the Suburban. I’ll have the money today, to fix the 3120!

        • Reb Says:

          Sorry, that was before coffee.

  • Pop’s SLR Says:

    At 25 yards 5 10.3 jsb make a ragged whole with my 880. Daisy pointed misses the 8 inch target 4 of 5 times.

    At 40 yards, my slr 98 puts 7 ftt 5.53 into .5 inches routinely. The crow magnums tumble and sometimes miss the backstop.

  • chasblock Says:

    I wonder how much of our pre-conceived notions affect our shooting results? What I mean is, we know we’re shooting a cheap pellet, therefore we expect our results to be poor and perhaps unconsciously don’t shoot as well as we would with a premium pellet. Do we have to factor in our expectations for our results?

    I’m not saying that B.B. is doing this, but perhaps some of us with lesser experience may have our results skewed because of our expectations?

    The only way to factor out this variable, is thru a blind test. We would have to NOT know what we are shooting in our guns and the only way to do that is for someone else to load the pellet and hand the gun over ready to shoot.

    Just throwing this idea out there for consideration.

    • Reb Says:

      I suppose if one thought the pellets were worthless one might just throw them away. I’ve shot bats outta the air with gravel loaded from the driveway with my Daisy. Not proud Just sayin’, If you make every shot count like it’s your last one, that’s when you connect.There’s way too much waste in this world, I’m not adding to it with my money

    • RidgeRunner Says:

      I have pellets that I know beyond any shadow of a doubt were a waste of labor and material to make, but I hang on to them because they might be THE pellet for a particular airgun. I have even had them be THE pellet on a particular day. That was a weird shooting session.

  • GunsmithHunter Says:

    B.B.

    I have always been told and read that the Air Arms pellets are just re-branded JSB pellets. I did not know that the dies JSB are using are owned by Air Arms!

    That explains the tests were JSB and Air Arms pellets (among others) are tested up against each other. I expected them to be about the same, but there were actually differences in accuracy between those two.

    Eddie

    • StevenG Says:

      Even if you use the same dies, the pellets could well be binned, like other industrial parts. All the ones within X% of the ideal grains goes in the cans labeled A and everything else in cans labeled B. You could do it by size as well, but that might be harder to automate.

      Something similar happens in just about all mass production, so I would not be surprised to see it in pellets.

  • David Enoch Says:

    BB,
    The FWB 124D that I have now likes the old Crosman Pointed Pellets that came in the plastic box with the belt clip. These Pointed Pellets were really more of a sharply rounded dome than a pointed pellet. When I discovered this I had two 124 rifles. One shot really well and the other shot pretty bad. Well, I ran out of “good pellets” and grabbed a box of Crosman Pointed Pellets and the the gun that wouldn’t shoot well started shooting one hole groups.

    It’s really nice when your rifle shoots well with cheap, locally available pellets, …until the company changes the pellet profile.

    David Enoch

    David Enoch

    • Reb Says:

      I have always steered clear of pointed pellets. Why waste my money? I’ sure glad I spent the money that allowed me to open that tin, when I saw the rounded tip, cleanliness of the tin and uniformity I grew impatient. “Time to shoot!”
      Reb

    • Reb Says:

      I hope they don’t change too much! Refer to my experiment below.

    • Reb Says:

      David, Thanks for your call earlier,It’s really nice to see this coming together!

  • Reb Says:

    B.B., Your Remington pellets bear a striking resemblance to the Crosman 14.3 pointed .22 rounds I picked up earlier this week. The 392 is really liking them! They will not be the most accurate pellet for this gun but not bad, with a slight flyer here and there when game is impacted the results are instantaneous seizure followed by a gravity induced, last flight to terra firma. In other words “They hit like a sledgehammer!” A very good hunting pellet at an affordable price, at ranges out to 40 yards.
    I’ve also had good luck with the Daisy wadcutters and keep some on hand for testing since ’99, when they were the preferred pellet for my 618 which, I believe is the most accurate gun I have ever shot, inside 20 yards.

    • RifledDNA Says:

      If I remember correctly those remingtons were fairly soft for a pointed pellet. Good lead means a good seal so that might’ve helped them out.

      • Reb Says:

        Your comment inspired me to take this discussion outside for a few…@5 pumps on the 392, I finally retrieved a round off a brick, tilted at an angle 5 yards away, expansion to .48! The 1st and second rounds,@10 and 8 pumps were nowhere to be found. I do believe they vaporized!
        Yeah, I guess they’re soft.

        Reb

  • Joe Says:

    B.B.,
    Perhaps you need to try again with another gun, because your Beeman R8 Tyrolean may be a “shooter.”
    When I was in Germany, I spoke to some of the people in a shooting club that I joined about which make and model of .22LR smallbore rifle is generally the most accurate. They told me that companies like Anschutz always test their target guns before shipping it out. They lock down the Action/Barrel (no stock) to a vice and shoots a 10-shot group to check if the gun shoots, and if it does, package the gun along with that test target for shipping. Every once in awhile, they discover a gun that is a “shooter”, meaning it shoots any target grade ammo well, and they don’t ship this gun, but put it in what they called the “green room.” These guns are reserve for the German National shooting team members (for Olympics and world championships).

    • Joe Says:

      B.B,
      Maybe those people who believe all pellets are the same, and it doesn’t matter what you shoot in your airgun shoot airguns like your Beeman R8, which is a “shooter”, meaning it shoots any type of quality pellet very well.

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        Joe,

        You are probably right. But even though my R8 is a shooter, that doesn’t mean it will shoot all pellets well.

        Next week I will show a much larger test I did with a world-class target rifle and the differences were dramatic.

        B.B.

  • wimpanzee Says:

    I just put a new third party .22 barrel in my marauder this last week. Yesterday, we finally had calm enough winds to do some testing.

    I tried some h&n FTT, h&n ‘cudas and some jsb 18.1′s.

    All the h&n pellets were producing 2″-3″ groups. The jsb’s got 4 shots into .13″, and 10 into .26″. Pellets really CAN mean the difference in some guns!

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    I think that different people will draw different conclusions from a test like this.
    There are those that are aiming for ‘minute of pop can’ (for example) who will respond that this indeed proves that there really isn’t a difference in premium pellets (or rimfire).
    But as someone mentioned, an Olympic shooters measures accuracy in 10th’s of a millimetre, not the width of a pop can.
    I know that whether it me my Slavia, Avanti 835 or Savage .22WMR…all are what I would call ‘accurate’.
    But if I know that at 10m my Avanti 853 will stack 5 Meisterkuglhen nearly one on top of the other…I have no interest in shooting Crosman Wadcutters (for example) which give my a 3/8″ group.
    But I know a lot of shooters who don’t think that little bit better accuracy isn’t worth twice the price.

    • Bradly Says:

      Cowboystar, just wondering about that 853. I know it’s a “lower” velocity gun not made for distance shooting, but could it hit pop cans at say 35 yards? How far out could it do this? Thank You, Bradly

      • cowboystar dad Says:

        Bradly…first, it doesn’t do well in the wind.
        That being said, I have shot mine out to 30m, which is about your distance. Once the pellet drop was taken into account (something like 8″ from 10m) it still groups a bit over an inch at 30m…so nailing pop cans should be no problem.
        And those groups are with the aperture peep sight…if you scoped it I think pop cans would be easy at that distance.

      • Reb Says:

        Bradly,
        My 953 would require a sight adjustment, but very doable. After I filled in the piston cup in, this gun’s effective range almost doubled!

        Reb

        • Bradly Says:

          Reb, what did you fill the cup in with? No sure how they do it, but my son’s 840 single pump will not shoot any different with one or two pumps. Do you know what kind of velocity you are getting out of it? Thanks, Bradly

          • Reb Says:

            First, remove the seals, I used JB Weld 2 part epoxy, after cleaning, scuffing and recleaning(leave it a little rough). If you watch it close enough you can actually mold it with your fingers, at a certain stage of setting. Clean any spillage and set it whereas gravity will enable it to self level, overnight.

          • Reb Says:

            Hit the submit button too early(itchy finger).I’ve read this mod is good for about 100fps, Which I believe, and would put the 953 right around 600fps with 7 grain rounds, after mods. Man! DoI need a chrony!

            • Bradly Says:

              Reb, You and me both (need a chrony). Very interesting. In a car, that would make higher compression. But in an airgun, I could see higher compression, but also reduced volume? Thanks again, Bradly

              • Reb Says:

                Bradly any time! Speaking of a chrony, I now have a springer to fix and tune! Gonna have to bite the bullet and give in, finally.

              • Reb Says:

                Apparently the reduction in headspace is enough to overcome the lesser volume. I took me over 6 months to decide on this mod. Since it’s completion, it’s still no hunter but the uses for the gun have grown into a delectible cornicopia of possibilities.

                • RifledDNA Says:

                  I can’t imagine not wanting a chrony, always have, can’t do any mod effectively without one. That and the range membership are solidified as the next 200$ I spend, it is time to join the club of real airgunners!

                  • Reb Says:

                    Sir, You misunderstand The QB36 is bought and paid for ..Well, almost-The deal wen t real cool! Anyway I NEED silicone oil! Where is the easiest place to get this stuff?

                    • Reb Says:

                      I have access to DOT4 brake fluid?

                    • RifledDNA Says:

                      Its funny you say that, and congrats, I just grabbed a can of silicone lube in a aerosol spray can from my buddy, works pretty good, I can send a shot right wherever it needs to go. You’ll have to let us know how she shoots, always wondered if a fixed barrel does as much good as it sounds that it should.

                  • Reb Says:

                    Just don’t forget your cloak, You invisible airgunner, you!

                  • Reb Says:

                    I’ve got 2 fixit jobs lined up right now, if I can do them back to back I’ll have the parts for the 3120 and some left for the chrony. Doing too much work with no documentation to know how what works!

              • Reb Says:

                As we used to say in the shop, “Compression is power”.

          • buldawg76 Says:

            Bradly And Cowboystar
            I also own an 853 and it was given to me by my smith after he tried fix it for a customer and it went off and put a Pellet thru his tool box. he said he wasn’t working any more pellet guns. I proceeded to tear it down to rebuild. it still shot pretty good, but I wanted to see if I could improve on it power and velocity a little, I did not really expect any great gains but when I got it apart and saw how the air chamber was designed and had read about the filling in of the piston to make it flat. Mine was flat enough that I did not see that filling it in would make any difference and would most likely not allow for the gun to fully seat the piston when pumped since the piston is non adjustable. So I figured the only way to increase power and velocity was to decrease the air space volume of the compression chamber when pumped with this being a single pump rifle. Here is what I did to decrease chamber volume. The air chamber has the valve ,spring and spring cover/retainer that the piston compresses the air into so to decrease chamber volume and therefore increase the pressure of air compressed into it I found a piece of round nylon/plastic that would fit inside the diameter of the spring coils ( I used a nylon body mount screw from some of my RC cars body mounts) and measured the distance from the tip of the valve where the spring fits on it with the stem of the valve flush with the rear of the chamber as if the hammer was sitting flush against the back of the chamber to the spring side of the metal spring retainer and cut the round plastic body mount about 50 thousands of an inch shorter than measured distance so that the plastic would sit inside the spring but not interfere with the movement of the valve or allow the plastic to hit the spring retainer and damage it or unseat the retainer. Thus decreasing the available air space in the compression chamber. I completed the reassembly of the gun and did some test firing. Although I did not have my crony yet so I could not confirm any gain with hard numbers It certainly sound more powerful and I can say with the match style peep rear and globe front sight this gun is very accurate out about15 yards which is the length of the range in my backyard and although this is not a powerhouse gun it is fun to shoot because you can hit the targets or spinners every shot with ease. It does seem to have made a difference it its power and accuracy. I hope you find this mod understandable and useful
            Mike

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        Ten meter air rifles are used for minisniping, where your target is usually something like a 9mm shell casing at ranges of ten to thirty-five yards. It is challenging to hit something that small at that range, but quite doable and most enjoyable. I am at present setting up my Edge as a minisniper.

  • Charles Stoehr Says:

    B.B.

    Crosman Premier pellets are available in tins of 500 and boxes of 1250. I have read that the Crosman Premier pellets in the box are better, but no one really says why. Can you explain the difference?

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Charles,

      He’s written quite a bit about them, but here’s the short version: The boxed ones are made with different dies than the ones in the tins. Some dedicated field target shooters like die No. 2, some like die No. 3. They have even gone to Crosman and bought a case from the die lot they prefer. But there are other mfrs that make good-quality pellets (for example, JSB), so you’re not limited to just Crosmans in the box.

      Edith

      • Charles Stoehr Says:

        Edith,

        Thanks for the explanation. Since shortly after the start of this hobby two years ago I started following the many recommendations to try many different pellets in my pellet guns. At this time I probably have about two dozen different .177 caliber pellets from Crosman, RWS, H&N, and JSB. I’ve started doing the same thing with the .22 pellets now that I have a .22 caliber rifle. Because I’m not familiar with the pellet manufacturing process, I often wondered what difference there could be between two Crosman Premier pellets when the only readily visible difference was the packaging. Your answer has now made that clear. Thanks again.

        • kevin Says:

          Charles Stoehr,

          Crosman Premiers in the cardboard box vs. Crosman Premiers in the tin

          Just a little clarification. As Edith said Crosman Premiers have different dies and the pellets in the cardboard boxes come from ONE die lot and the die lot is stamped on the bottom of the cardboard box. The pellets in the tins come from multiple die lots. If you buy the Crosman Premiers in the tin you could have pellets from 5 or more different dies. This explains why many shooters experience inconsistent accuracy from the Premiers in the tin vs. those in the cardboard box. As Edith also said, die’s change and even though you have more consistency with the pellets in the cardboard box since they’re from the same die vs. the tin that contains pellets from multiple dies your gun may not like that die lot.

          This information about the tins vs. cardboard box was confirmed on another airgun forum by Chip @ Crosman on 2-28-2014 at 8:41AM.

          kevin

  • Desertdweller Says:

    I shoot only RWS Superpoints in my Beeman P17. But not for reasons of accuracy.

    As anyone who has ever shot one of these knows, it is impossible to see the breech of the gun when attempting to insert a pellet. A wadcutter pellet is very frustrating to load, as you can’t see where you are putting it.

    A pointed pellet finds the hole much easier.

    Out at the range, 25 yards is my normal shooting distance. Wadcutter pellets will still give good results with most of my guns at that distance. Domed pellets work better beyond that.

    Les

    • Bradly Says:

      Desertdweller, how far out can you P17 hit a soda can? I had asked Cowboystar about his rifle, but I’d also like to know on this pistol too. Thank You, Bradly

      • Desertdweller Says:

        I really don’t know. Haven’t tried it.

        The next time I go to the range, I’ll try it and let you know.

        Les

      • Feinwerk Says:

        I have a dot sight on one of my p17′s. Using a rest, I can consistently hit the 30 yd can on my range. It’s amazingly accurate with jsb 7.33 grainers.

      • Desertdweller Says:

        I got your answer. 25 yards with a 12″ hold-over.

        P17 with RWS Superpoints.

        My neighbor Chuck was getting the same results with his P17 and RWS Superpoints.

        Les

        • Bradly Says:

          Thanks Desert for doing a little “range” work for me. That is pretty cool that it can hit cans out to that distance.

          • Desertdweller Says:

            Yes, it is.
            My neighbor Chuck, my grandson Nicky, and myself all have P17s, and all shoot RWS Superpoints.
            Nicky has a dot sight on his. I tried to bring him along today, but he wasn’t home.

            Chuck and I both brought our GAMO breakbarrels, too, and shot Shoot-N-C targets at 25 yards.

            After we got done shooting the P17s, we shot the empty soda cans with the rifles. It was a lot of fun until a rainstorm rolled in.

            The GAMOs tended to put the Superpoints right through the cans without knocking them over (we put a little sand in them for ballast). I switched to Crosman hollowpoints. They seems to transfer more energy to the cans, knocking them over. We knocked them around like Quigley’s bucket!

            Les

    • Feinwerk Says:

      I chamfered the breech end of the barrel on my p17′s using a small conical grinding stone (made for dremel type tools) chucked into a cordless screwdriver. I used oil and did a little at a time until pellet fit seemed just right. There was a substantial improvement in ease of loading! Did the same in my Webley Alecto ultra (great pistol BTW).

  • Reb Says:

    OK Ya’ll, Last night I was talking to Kevin about an underlever spring gun that a friend of mine wants $50 for. After some research, this gun appears to be a QB-36, further research looks very promising! Anybody know anything about this gun?
    Thanks for your thoughts!
    Reb

    • RifledDNA Says:

      The guys on the Chinese forum have said good things I believe and I would say any fixed barrel underlever would be worth 50$ if it shoots. Those guys on Chinese know tons about things Chinese but it can get a little flaky, search on there and I bet there are many conversations.

      • Reb Says:

        From what I’ve read, some are considering it as a Chinese TX200 and very tunable. does this sound accurate?

        • RifledDNA Says:

          Yup, that’s what I’ve read, sounds worth fifty bucks to me.

          • Reb Says:

            RDNA, Thanks for the vote of confidence! I’ll try to catch him tonight so I can test accuracy. I unloade the gun into an Oak after a futile rat hunt and remember a decent trigger and ricochet that would definitely leave a mark.

          • Reb Says:

            Sounds like my next springer! As long as accuracy is decent.

            • RifledDNA Says:

              Hey, after you demonstrate how inaccurate it is (because you’ve dug your fingernail into everyother pellet) maybe you can get em down on the price! Just kidding, kids this is dishonest and you shouldn’t do it….. was just a funny idea, unless they are real swindlers that overcharge everything and truly deserve it, then go ahead.

              • Reb Says:

                I’m gonna try to get him to group it first. Maybe he’ll show me a new trick with his artillery holding prowess! ;)

                • RifledDNA Says:

                  That string was gettin a little thin so I brought it down here,- There should be some kind of oath that once you become a “real” airgunner you have an obligation to be less invisible in some positive way, that way it’ll be established airgunners that get our sport out of the shadows and if everyone did something like that ee would have things turned around fast, ad soon as I finished writing that I realized what I said was exactly like peoples obligation to vote once your 18….

                  • Reb Says:

                    All my friends and neighbors know of my obsession/passion for airguns. It can lead to a lotta razzing but I just let it roll off, like water off a duck’s back.

                  • Reb Says:

                    Where did you get your silicone oil?

                  • Reb Says:

                    What makes you say interesting about the DOT4? Have you heard them using it too?

                    • RifledDNA Says:

                      I couldn’t say about brake fluid, and actually I thought brake fluid was highly caustic from what I’ve been told. My friend had the silicone spray, a seymour brand “toolcrib” food grade, keeps rubber gaskets soft and flexible. 620-1500 its marked. Stuff is awesome. Im definitely going to get some more, only a bit left in it. How’s that underlever going?

        • Slinging Lead Says:

          Reb

          BG_Farmer’s review of the QB36-2 is here:

          http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/04/from-clunk-to-thunk-beginner-customizes.html

          The QB is not the chinese TX200. The chinese copy of the TX is made by Best Airgun Manufacturer, and called the BAM40. BB reviewed that one here:

          http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/bam-b40-part-1-first-look.html

          Crosman was going to sell the BAM40 as the Crosman MAV77 a little while back, but apparently gave up on the project due to inconsistent QC from the chinese.

      • Reb Says:

        I remember when I started seeing the B-3′s at every flea market and pawn shop for $40 and couldn’t bring myself to do it. Glad I waited!

        • twotalon Says:

          Reb

          Would have been a rip off. I got mine at a Cummins tool sale for $20 .

          twotalon

          • Reb Says:

            Yeah, I would’ve preferred a Daisy 99 to one of those. But these were still in my rimfire days, so I had it covered.

          • Desertdweller Says:

            I saw a B36 at a flea market a few years ago. It had a scope on it and the seller was asking $120.
            My comment was that it must have been a pretty good scope at that price.

            No sale.

            Les

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      If I’m not mistaken, there was a guest blog on here about the QB-36 written by BG Farmer who tuned his .

      • Reb Says:

        Yes! I read it earlier.
        I’m havin’ one o’ those days. when I went over the gun it’d a lil rough and while firing, the recoil was strong, but something ain’t right. I’m guessin’ too many dry fires pulverized the piston seal. however while i’m explaining my diagnosis, Ernie sends his boy in to fetch his Benji, which is also suffering. imagine my surprise when out came a Crosman 140 1st variant! His “Benji” was very dry so I went home,got my Secret Sauce, came back and oiled it…
        Long story short; the QB36 is mine!…Thank you,Thank you,Thankyou!!!

        • Reb Says:

          If there’s a piece of duct tape in the action?..Is that bad?

          • RifledDNA Says:

            Haha, oh man this gave me a good laugh! Duct tape is extra..

            • Reb Says:

              I was looking for a place to respond. Yeah, it looked like someone closed the action on it so it was just floating around in there til I found it, fortunately, just before accuracy testing which was brief because I gotta call on a side job so I just got back. Still looking for the pellet but most are 3/4-1″@10m 5 shot. I routinely use the artillery hold with my other guns, but they’re nothing like this heavy beast, power is almost too much.I wonder how easy a .22 barrel and gas ram would be? ;) !

              • RifledDNA Says:

                The shorter barrel makes it a little tougher, but right out of the box the new np(s) is harder to cock then the tr77 gas ram .177, and the metal spring blackhawk is a lot easier then the .22 np(s), it hasn’t fully broken in yet but its more of a difference than that.

            • Reb Says:

              In regards to the fixed barrel it’s 17″. After our discussion on choke vs non-choke and the conclusion I came to, this may be a little long for max power and accuracy. Guess we’ll see what happens on the choking blog. Can’t wait to see B.B.’s choking tool!

  • Michael Says:

    B.B.,

    I noticed the new Crosman Comrade AK on the Pyramyd Air New Products page. I predict that will sell out with pre orders before a shipment even comes in. And I also predict it WILL be cool. It is a smoothbore BB gun; however, which has me thinking of the ongoing discussion a number of us have had here bemoaning the dearth of rifled lead pellet firing CO2 replicas, blow-back or not.

    Of course I predict strong demand for an Umarex, metal and wood, CO2, pellet firing M1 Carbine, and I still think that. But if they came out with an AK-47 in metal and wood (yes, wood butt-stocked, original Russian version), CO2, and lead pellet firing, and especially if they could squeeze the 88/90 oz. CO2 cartridge in there, they would have to open a new manufacturing facility just to make that one model in order to keep up with demand. It couldn’t be affordable to most folks, probably with a price a bit higher than that of the white metal version of the Walther Lever-Action, but I still think they’d sell a bazillion of them.

    Just my two cents,

    Michael

    • Charles Stoehr Says:

      Michael,

      If you are looking for an AR style CO2 pellet rifle, you should check out the new Daisy Winchester MP4.

      • Michael Says:

        Charles,

        AK, not AR.

        BIG difference IMO. At least as big a difference as the one between Alaska (AK) and Arkansas (AR) ;^)

        Michael

        • RifledDNA Says:

          That AK is in the new single sheet folded catalog from Crosman right? I thought “that’s cool!”, and before I unfolded the catalog I said “wow, thats cheap!”, but I don’t blame them, they must have saved a ton of money on making the catalogs, enough to make new NP2s and AKs. Though it was more likely the other way around, the catalog was fruggled because of the new guns. I get it, but hope they go back to the nice book catalog.

          • Michael Says:

            It’s called the Crosman Comrade AK, and if you search with that phrase in the Pyramyd Air search engine, it comes up immediately.

            It IS inexpensive, at only $70, and at 4 pounds, it might be mostly metal or not, I can’t tell. (Four pounds might be about right for all-metal as it is a replica more of the AK-104 carbine than a medium size AK).

            The removable skeleton stock is plastic (who cares?), and the banana magazine, pistol grip, and forearm MIGHT be plastic (don’t know, but again, who cares?), but I’ll bet that the receiver is metal. Just my guess.

            Of course, my point was that Umarex should come out with a high-end, version of the classic Russian Kalishnikov in CO2 (88/90 gram) and using their 8 round revolving metal pellet magazines. Price it about as much as the stainless look Walther Lever Action, and I’ll buy two instantly.

            Michael

      • Bradly Says:

        Charles, is the Daisy AR (MP4?) just a “re-skinned” Winchester M1? Is there anything different other than weight and/or length? If not, that makes either the AR over priced or the M1 a bargain. Thanks, Bradly

        • Charles Stoehr Says:

          Bradly,

          When you wrote M1, I think you meant the Daisy Winchester M14. As to whether or not the Winchester MP4 is a “re-skinned” Winchester M14 I can’t say because I don’t have the M14 and can’t compare them. When I read the customer reviews for the Winchester M14, I got the impression that it is mostly a light weight plastic material. I do know the plastic parts on the MP4 do feel like a very durable plastic polymer material. Daisy has modified and improved the magazine design for the MP4. Just compare the magazine images on the Pyramyd Air listings for each rifle and you will see the difference. As a semi-automatic rifle, the MP4 does re-cock with each shot, but I am not sure if that is the same as having blowback. The M14 operation manual says it does the same thing, but neither operation manual makes any claim to the rifles having blowback. The MP4 has worked very well for me and has very good accuracy with some pellets. If you haven’t read the MP4 reviews, here’s the link. You will find my review under the name Charles M posted 2014-01-25.

          http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Winchester_MP4_CO2_Rifle/3284#Reviews.html

          As to whether or not the Daisy Winchester MP4 is over-priced, I can’t say. It all depends on what the individual shopper thinks the gun is worth to them. I’ve been happy with my purchase. Based on their reviews, some of the other customer reviewers might not be happy with it. I know B.B. said on this blog in reply to one of my questions that he plans to review the MP4 sometime this year. You might want to ask him to include a comparison to the Daisy Winchester M14.

          • Bradly Says:

            I didn’t know they “recocked” after a shot. I thought they were made something like the crosman 1077 (and many pistols) where they are really be a revolver, meaning pulling the trigger indexes the next round.

            • Charles Stoehr Says:

              Yes, the MP4 does re-cock after each shot. The shooter has to manual cock the rifle only for the first shot. The pellet magazine is a stick with two 8 shot rotary disks, one at each end. So in that respect the magazine is still more like a revolver than like a true semi-automatic. Until someone figures out a way to “stack and feed stacked pellets” in a magazine like a true semi-automatic without damaging the pellet skirts, we’re stuck with some type of rotary disk magazine for pellets. As far as the actual mechanics are concerned, I’m not sure if the trigger pull rotates the magazine. I do know that the trigger does not cock the rifle. The re-cocking is performed by another internal mechanism, possibly by a blowback or blowback like mechanism.

              • Bradly Says:

                Charles, they have already had guns that have “stacked” magazines. You have to use Hobby’s (wadcutters-flat) so they can slide. The old Crosman 400 & 600. My daisy CO2 pistol has a “in line” mag. as well. Thanks, Bradly

            • Charles Stoehr Says:

              Bradly,

              As I was preparing my MP4 for another shooting session, I looked into the magazine socket, pulled the trigger, and confirmed that the trigger does advance the rotary magazine. When the CO2/pellet magazines are out, the trigger magazine advance mechanism is readily visible so that you can see it working.

  • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

    The problem I ran into is that whenever I got a new gun, I would shoot every pellet I had on hand through it, see what it liked the best, buy up like 10 tins of them and then stick with that particular one. The only thing is that I fear I’ve likely overlooked some of the newer pellets we have access to now that could possibly shoot even better. I guess I’ll have to invest a few evenings in gathering some new stock (especially JSBs, I admit I’ve chronically overlooked that brand since H&N’s, RWS and CPL/CPHs always seemed to work so well for me) and running a new round of testing myself. At any rate, that R8 looks like its got a heck of a barrel on it. One last thing, can anyone suggest a decent chrony for informal backyard airgun testing purposes? After all these years of using my tried and true pop can and plywood penetration chronograph, I think I owe it to myself to upgrade to something that gives me actual data to go by instead of seat-of-the-pants guesstimation. Hope everyone is well….

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Mitchell,

      I have the same problem. I get in a supply of pellets — like the Remingtons I used in this report — then I don’t use them before they go out of production. I’m always playing catch up.

      B.B.

  • 103David Says:

    In 2012 Edith responded to a low review on the Crosman .22 Premier 14.3 Gr Domed pellets in the cardboard box. While the low-rater had no complaint about the quality of the item(s) he almost irrationally criticized the pricing. Edith very succinctly explained the rationale Crosman uses on packaging these pellets for consistency by manufacture using the same dies per batch. I would highly recommend going to the “Ammo” link, check the .22 Premier 14.3 pellets, read the customer reviews and note Edith’s response.
    That said, her explanation bears repeating on a regular basis on the Pyramyd Blog. And a glimpse through the back-door of a pellet manufacturer would be of interest. Perhaps on the next chapter of this subject?

    • Feinwerk Says:

      I for one would love to see how a pellet making machine works. Does it use drawn lead wire off of a spool and chop and form it?

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        Feinwerk and 103David,

        I will ask Edith if she is up for a guest blog like that. She is very busy putting the next catalog together right now, but this is an important subject. Maybe I can write the blog and she can add to it?

        As for the pellet-making machine, I have stood in front of several such machines (twice at Crosman) and been asked not to take any pictures. This is a sensitive process that manufacturers do not wish to share with their competition.

        B.B.

        • 103David Says:

          Oh, I’ve just always wondered about the basic manufacture, likely nothing to compromise major industrial secrets. Lord knows, without scouring my memory too thoroughly, I’ve just as likely engaged in behaviors I’d rather not have been witnessed by others. Oh, wait, you think those things were somehow naughty. Shame on you. No, lets just say the one I really worry about involves me having to pay for that darn helicopter, if only they could find the scurrilous lot that wrecked it… Enough said on that subject… Don’t tell… Just your tax dollars at work.
          Anyway, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t involve elves with tiny little insulated eyedroppers dripping molten lead into an endless stream of tiny little .177 caliber pellet molds…but what do I know? Maybe that’s exactly what the big secret is…It’s just an arcane way of circumventing the labor laws?
          Hmmm, now I’m really suspicious. Maybe I’ll dust off my only rarely used Journalism degree and do an investigative report on the sub-rosa pellet cartel…;)

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          I happened to catch a show on cable that showed Crosman making pellets. It showed the machines were the pellets come out. There was like 3 metal chutes (3 different places that pellets were coming out of the machine/or machines; they were all fairly close together) if you will that the pellets slid very fast down into a catch pan. Probably about a 7″ trip the pellet went on after it came out of the machine and down a fairly steep slope of I would say about 30 degrees. The pellets flew through the air about 2″ and landed in the catch pan.

          That’s all they showed. But I kept thinking to myself how in the world are the skirts of the pellets not getting bent. I just touch my pellets the wrong way and I mess them up.

          And BB do you recall seeing what I’m talking about?

          • B.B. Pelletier Says:

            GF1,

            Yep. But all Crosman pellets are made with antimony in the alloy, so they are hard.

            B.B.

            • Reb Says:

              Looking at the Crosman pointed, they appear to have antimony ,however, judging from my expansion test above, apparently not much.

            • Desertdweller Says:

              I somehow have the idea that pellets are made by compressing a lead powder with some heat applied to the die. Can’t remember where I heard that.

              I do know that cheaper wadcutter pellets have a parting line across the head where the halves of the die come together.

              The worst pellets I’ve ever seen were at a gun show for sale. They were Chinese wadcutters. The pellets looked almost fuzzy, with a definite green tint. Each one looked slightly different from the others.

              I know the Chinese can do a lot better than that.

              Les

              • Reb Says:

                Your powdered metal theory make sense to me. Also the lack of a sprue, and soft alloy, is why I like the standard Daisy wadcutters. I’ll have to try these today, if it ever stops raining, in my new, to me, QB-36-1!

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              BB
              I would hope because those pellets were coming out fast. It just really surprised me that they didn’t take more care to protect them. I handle my pellets like they are a new born baby if you know what I mean.

              Anyway it was cool to see the little bit they showed about the pellet making.

              • Reb Says:

                With the weight of a single pellet being so miniscule, it would have to drop on a hard surface at higher than it’s terminal velocity(32fps) or be semi molten to cause much deformity(Just educated guesswork)

  • Reb Says:

    Well, it’s mine! No money changed hands? I’m going to help get his Crosman 140 shooting in trade!.. I love learnin’ stuff!

  • Reb Says:

    B.B. i’m very interested in seeing a comparison of Easily accessible pellets vs high end + tax & s&hmail order’s. There are pellets out there that deserve their good reputations but, there are also ones that can be comparable for half the price. One has to remember one’s roots. isn’t cost effectiveness still important in our sport? I think so!

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Reb,

      As soon as I get back from my trip I will get started on it. I thought I knew exactly what would happen, but this test proves different.

      B.B.

  • Reb Says:

    RifleDNA and Gunfun1! Where are you?

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Reb
      The storm we had the other day hit a walnut tree in our front yard and blocked our driveway. So I been out cutting wood. Was try’n to get it done before the weekend so I could have some relaxed shoot’n time this weekend. That’s were I have been. :)

      • Reb Says:

        While you got the chainsaw going, I need to replace the plastic stock and forearm on my 760. :D

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Reb
          It didn’t get the whole tree. Which I’m glad cause we get the walnuts from the tree. Just knocked a big enough limb off that I couldn’t move by hand. Got the old trusty lawn tractor out and hooked up a chain and drug it out of the driveway. Then came the cutting.

          But no pieces big enough cause it cracked the limb down the middle. Sorry

          And the thing about it is that we have more in the back yard and one got hit a few years back by lightning not wind like what just happened. The lightning split that tree right in half. Everybody was asking for some of that. And there is more in the woods behind my house but I don’t own the ground. So you know how that goes.

          • Reb Says:

            If it’s Walnut and you get it out with the rootball it’s worth money. The root ball is where they get that cool knurly stuff from!

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              Reb
              When my dad was still living his hobby was making and playing Italian guitars and of course listening to the Italian music. But he made some beautiful guitars. He was very picky where he got his wood from.

              I just wish I had the patience to do that. And yes I know about the walnut trees. And yes its definitely a walnut tree by my driveway. I got to pick up the walnuts all the time in the summer. Heck the things will fall off the tree and hit you in the head if your not careful. :)

              • Reb Says:

                Same with Pecans down here! And if you get under the wrong tree you will be relentlessly peppered by the arrogant Bluejays, until out of range! They can also be extremely accurate with these and Yes,they hurt!

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Reb
                  Sounds to me like the Bluejays would be considered pest birds to me. You know what happens to pest birds don’t you. Well maybe they are on a endangered species list. Do you sell the pecans?

                  • Reb Says:

                    I believe they’re protected here but I have considered consulting with some of the local orchards about pest control.

                  • Reb Says:

                    Yes,I sell pecans when it’s worth the time. One season I made $400/week.

                    • Gunfun1 Says:

                      Reb
                      Good for you. You know that you should be glad they are in your area. I would trade you some walnuts for some peacons anyday.

                      And I have done pest control like we talked about before also.

  • Reb Says:

    @ RifleDNA You gotta be kidding! At least mine was a funny joke,you’re gonna put somebody’s eye out!
    Got some weird stuff happening. my first 2 shots were 3/4″ apart. the buzz was overwhelming and sounded dry. I’m sure I’ll be needing a piston seal,or I Might get lucky. From the looks of things no’one there understands the concept of lubrication, in an airgun. I feel it’s my duty to look after his 140,if not just because I really like that gun. However this is a friend and the whole family shoots. This weekend I’ll be back over to check on the 140(and my friends) and if found unresponsive to lubrication, repairs will be ordered!

  • Reb Says:

    We have no sporting goods store that carries silicone oil for springers.

    Anybody, is there a safe substitute, for example DOT4 is silicone based and so is Armour All.
    what do you use?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Reb,

      No! Be very careful. The silicone chamber lubes that we recommend have a high flashpoint. Regular silicone spray lubricant many not have a high flashpoint and could damage your airgun.

      B.B.

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Brake fluid is highly corrosive to paint finishes. While it has a high flash point, hydraulic systems don’t reach the same PSI in as short a time period — shoving both feet on a brake pedal is probably only producing around 500PSI (if that much) in the brake lines.

      I’ve got a small bottle or two of RWS chamber oil; came with an airgun cleaning kit as I recall.

      What I’ve not been able to find is a supply for silicone /grease/. The oil has the viscosity of vodka, and even the RWS spring oil (NOT for chambers) is lower viscosity than PellGunOil.

      • Reb Says:

        I double checked for this when I replaced the pads on my brother’s Harley and it said “Silicone based Will Not harm finished surfaces”.I had to show him the bottle to calm his fears. Very low viscosity as for silicone grease, it’s available @ local auto parts dealers mainly as a lubricant for rubber brake parts, sometimes not available in a tube but always @ the counter.

        • Wulfraed Says:

          Guess I haven’t encountered that formulation… All my gear is still DOT3 spec’d and that I know has warnings about spills.

          • Reb Says:

            Porsche has used this stuff forever,it’s what gets used in extreme heat applications because it won’t absorb moisture(non hygrgoscopic)keeping it’s original boiling point whereas DOT3 does absorbmoisture(hygroscopic), lowering it’s boiling point but, making it an asset in maintenence as long as it gets changed.

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              I have heard of the silicone brake fluid but don’t know much about it yet. Sounds like that is something to be looked at.

              • Reb Says:

                I heard a couple of guys tossin’ the idea aroind on the Chinese page about a year agoand thought i’d do the same here. I do know braking systems and all standard parts and material as required by my job, back in the day. I see no reason for it not to work and believe it should be tested to break through the stigma of “What?, I never heard of that!”

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Reb
                  What you have to watch for is that the brake fluid could be silicone based. Its the other ingredients that could be bad inside a high pressure air chamber. You got to remember that the brake system is liquid and that does have a bit of a cooling effect. And its not operating at the high pressures like what the PCP guns use. I would just make sure you research it good before you use it. I don’t want to hear about my buddy Reb on the news if you know what I mean.

                  • Reb Says:

                    I didn’t me ME test it with MY gun. As far as temperature toleration goes, have you ever noticed in a Nascar race,when it’s dark enough, the rotors are glowing @ about 1500F, so I have complete confidence and will back anyone who is willing to experiment with this.

                    Reb

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Reb
                  When you talk about a test about air guns. Why do you talk about another subject that it has worked on. I don’t really care if it was used in Nascar or anywhere else. Yes I have messed with a lot cars and did a lot of experimenting with them and used different things from other known uses.

                  But when I test something I test on the object I want to find out about. And when I do those types of test that I chose to do I want to know about the dangers that could be involved. You can only repair a person so much if you know what I mean. So all I can say is happy testing. Because I know from talking with you that you know what your doing I suppose. Anyway have fun and let me know how it goes.

                  • Reb Says:

                    For some reason your comment makes me sad. I was only trying to address your concern of heat tolerance.
                    My apologies

                    Reb

                    • Gunfun1 Says:

                      Reb
                      Sorry about being so direct. But getting hurt to learn something is just unaceptable to me. Sorry.

    • buldawg76 Says:

      Reb
      If you have a hobby shop near you that sell rc cars they should have silicone shock oil. It comes in 10 to 50 weights, I recently rebuilt Diana rws 54 and had some 50 weight silicone oil on hand for my off road cars. so I lubed up the piston and cylinder bore with it and completed assy. When I fired it the first time it sounded like a 22 rimfire going off and looked like squirt gun out the barrel. If a little is good more must be better right. I think I used a little to much oil or maybe to heavy of a weight. but the remaining ten shots fired as expected with good accuracy and speed. that rws 54 is a powerhouse. So if you got a hobby shop near by it might be worth a look.

  • dangerdongle Says:

    I don’t know if you can get your hands on them in Texas, but the big chain stores out here sell Beeman branded “coated” pellets in tins of 500 for $1.99, direct from China. These are not rebranded H&Ns, and have an unidentifiable black coating on them.
    I’ve only tried the pointeds and the hollowpoints but oddly enough they shoot well out of almost every gun I own and are just as accurate as the pricier brands, although I wouldn’t call them “Olympic” quality. They are however far more uniform in weight and size than any Crosman I’ve tried to date and I’ve yet to run across a crushed skirt.
    For shooting on the cheap it’s hard to beat ‘em.

  • Reb Says:

    B.B.,or anyone who knows. I just got off the phone with a local dealer, who suggested Rem Oil for chamber lube? Sound right?

    Reb

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Reb,

      No! Rem Oil is petroleum-based.

      Why are you looking for chamber oil? What have you got to lube? Most airguns don’t need much lube these days.

      B.B.

      • Reb Says:

        I received a QB36 in trade for some work on a Crosman 140. It sounds very dry so I need to at least do something about that. The gun has a lotta buzz too, that will be attended ton in time.
        I’d like to see how it groups but don’t wanna cost myself anymore by wearing a dry seal.
        HELP!

        • kevin Says:

          Reb,

          Is your piston seal leather or synthetic?

          If it’s leather, you can try to rejuvenate the seal by putting 10 drops of Silicone Oil down the barrel, stand the gun on its’ butt overnight and then shoot it. You can find Silicone Oil at a hobby shop that sells RC cars/planes/helicopters, etc. Silicone Oil is used in the shocks of these models and comes in a large variety of weights. Mine is made by LOSI (www.losi.com). I use 20wt for leather seals. Ideally you would take the seal out of the gun, mix neatsfoot oil and silicone oil and let the seal sit in this bath overnight.

          If you have a synthetic seal you need to take the gun apart and use proper lubes in the proper places/on appropriate parts. ARH (Air Rifle Headquarters) sells a bundled package of the 3 most used lubes in springers.

          kevin

          • Reb Says:

            Good info Kevin, Thanks!

          • Reb Says:

            Kevin,I’ll have to look. I’ve found conflicting info on disassembly some say spring compressor some say nay. I don’t wanna catch a spring in the Goodies so I’m asking you, I don’t have one and have never used one made for airgun work

            • kevin Says:

              Reb,

              B.B. gave you good advice.

              You need a good spring compressor. The spring in your gun is long and under quite a bit of pre-load. It ain’t a slavia.

              Lot of good information on the internet about building a Spring Compressor for tuning airguns.

              kevin

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Reb,

          QB 36 seals are synthetic and don’t need much oil. Forget the oil for now and concentrate of tightening things in the mainspring area.

          A tin can tune?

          B.B.

          • Reb Says:

            Guess I’ll shoot some groups as a “before” reference then, Thanks B.B.!

          • kevin Says:

            Surprisingly, the QB36-1 aka TF97 and the QB36-2 aka TF99 were manufactured with leather piston seals or synthetic piston seals. Both models were sold with either synthetic or leather.

            The QB36-2 that BGfarmer did a blog about tuning (link is above) has a good picture in that blog of his leather piston seal.

            kevin

            • B.B. Pelletier Says:

              Kevin,

              Thank you for that. I remember now that Compasseco was worrying about leather seals when they changed to synthetic. I though that change was across the board, but I guess not.

              B.B.

              • Reb Says:

                So it sounds like I need to find out. Will I need a spring compressor?

                • B.B. Pelletier Says:

                  Reb,

                  Yes. Always with Chinese airguns.

                  B.B.

                  • kevin Says:

                    Here………hold my beer and watch this.

                    Have a safe trip.

                  • Reb Says:

                    Thank you B.B., I’ll remember that. My slavia is the only one I’ve ever been in and that was over 15 years ago, however the cocking effort on this one gave me pause.

                  • buldawg76 Says:

                    On the rws 54 I just rebuilt I was able to get apart with out compressor, i just placed it barrel end down carpet and used a leather glove on the hand holding the back of trigger/spring retainer with my 227 pounds upper body resting on the gloved hand and carefully removed one retaining pin them inserted a Phillips screwdriver in the empty pin hole to have better control of the spring pressure, then removed the second pin and slowly removed the screwdriver while keeping my body weight on my gloved hand and it cane apart easily. I agree a compressor would be better and safer, but I did not have one and working with motorcycle fork springs that are much larger and mostly under even more tension than the rws spring I gave it a shot and survived with no damage. reassembly was a little more difficult as I made a spring seat for the front end of the spring to help keep the spring centered on the piston shaft and eliminate some of the spring buzz associated with these models and shortened the spring guide to the same amount that spring guide added to the spring chamber to prevent stack up that would prevent the rifle to be fully cocked. It turned out quite well and would leave dents in my metal backstop almost equivalent to my 22 crosman 1400.

            • /Dave Says:

              My TF99 from Compasseco had a leather seal that led like some kid cut it out with a full cookie cutter…

              • /Dave Says:

                Dull cookie cutter…..

                • Reb Says:

                  Ouch! At least you knew you could make a better one!

                  • /Dave Says:

                    Reb,

                    I had to do a lot of work on mine. New piston head out of Teflon with a quad seal o-ring and backer. New rectangular profile die spring with thrust washers and made a metal spring guide. Honed the cylinder bore after tweaking the receiver to get rid of the droop. Re-crowned and cleaned the barrel. Stoned the trigger to take out the grittiness.

                    Now it shoots pretty good, but the stock is still an ugly, twisted, cracked piece of Chinese mystery wood.

                    /Dave

                    • Reb Says:

                      A decent spring guide is on the top of my list, with a trigger job running a close second. I found some looseness int the screws after 100 rounds, one of these nights I’ll pull ‘em and use loctite to extend the maintainence schedule.

                  • /Dave Says:

                    Maybe this time?

                    Reb,

                    I had to do a lot of work on mine. New piston head out of Teflon with a quad seal o-ring and backer. New rectangular profile die spring with thrust washers and made a metal spring guide. Honed the cylinder bore after tweaking the receiver to get rid of the droop. Re-crowned and cleaned the barrel. Stoned the trigger to take out the grittiness.

                    Now it shoots pretty good, but the stock is still an ugly, twisted, cracked piece of Chinese mystery wood.

                    /Dave

                    • Reb Says:

                      Wow, that’s dedication! The wood on mine is dinged but nothing a light brush up and restaining won’t fix and I just shot a pellet that inspired me to take the group to 10 shots, the scope adjustments are tightening up a little and the groups are tightening along with them, the rifle is starting to hit where I aim anyway. Or maybe I’m getting used to It?

    • kevin Says:

      Reb,

      NO! Do not use Rem Oil.

      Although mineral spirits are the primary ingredient in rem oil it also contains petroleum distallates. Never use a petroluem product inside of any airgun.

      What do you need silicone oil for?

      kevin

  • paoli Says:

    BB,
    Back to the TX 200-
    1. If I buy the .22 cal., would (could) I ever want to use it for FT down the road?
    2. If I could, what are your scope choices for both hunting/plincking and possible FT, say less than $300?
    3. What .22 pellets should I try first?

    Again, many thanks Tom. Steve

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Steve,

      You could shoot that .22 TX in a Hunters Class match, like what you saw in the blog earlier. But no .22 will ever be competitive in an AAFTA match spring class. For that you need .177 only.

      Try the JSB RS and the 15.9-grain pellets. I have no experience with .22 TXs, so maybe a reader could help out here.

      For a scope look at the UTG line. Get a variable with up to 16 power, I would think, and a 30mm scope tube is always brighter.

      B.B.

    • Feinwerk Says:

      Hi Steve,
      The best pellet for my .22 tx 200 turned out to be the H&N ftt in 5.53 head size, both in terms of accuracy and velocity, as verified by a chrony. Get a tin of 5.51, 5.52, & 5.53 head sizes. Pick the one with the highest and most uniform velocity, shot-to-shot. When you get the right head size, the results are dramatic. You have to have a chronograph to know when it’s the right pellet. If you’re buying the best springer, it’s worth getting a chrony.
      Good luck,
      Mark

    • Feinwerk Says:

      For example, with the right head size, the velocity will be 20-30 fps faster than the other pellets, and the velocity spread will drop to 5 fps or less. With a good gun like the tx, a good lube tune, and the right pellet, you’ll even start to get duplicate velocities sometimes on consecutive shots. You have to be willing to spend money on pellets and spend time testing.

  • Reb Says:

    OK the Cobra snake oil I use as an antioxidant for my pellets after washing says safe for all O-rings 100 percent synthetic but no mention of ingredients. Safe enough, or should I just tear it down and go through it?

  • Reb Says:

    I guess I should’ve said it like this; It’s a QB36-1, might make a difference.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    BB
    Maybe when you do the next part of this blog you could throw in a little info about how the different shapes of pellets came about.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      GF1,

      Man, do you have faith in me! I don’t know everything, you know! ;)

      And I even like my lies to sound a little truthful.

      B.B.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        BB
        I do have faith in you. :)

        But whoever was designing them earlier pellets of the day had to of had something in thier mind of why they thought thier design was going to work.

        I would have to say they were made for a reason. Not like some of pba light weight pellets that are made today. Or whatever they are called.

        I remember I when I shot some of them that I got with a Gamo whisper. They seriously went in the tras can.

        So I guess there is reasons to experiment with some types of pellets and not others.

        Then I myself also like wadcutters in some of my higher power guns when I pest control out to around 25 yrds. so I dont over penatrate. But then if I shoot them out to 50 yrds. they start losing thier accuracy.
        So you see what I mean different types of pellets work better when you use them for different things.

        Why always so much work to do something fun.

        • Wulfraed Says:

          Badminton birdies might have been one influence… From there it probably became an iterative process trying to maximize the triad of accuracy – power – usability (imagine loading a .177 pellet that is an inch long with a skirt the thickness of aluminum foil)

          Wadcutters is no guess work — power is out of the equation; short range accuracy combined with paper punch cut-outs in target paper stock… You find the same thing pistol paper punching (one reason .38Special revolvers lasted so long — wadcutters had no problems in them, while semi-autos were stuck with jacketed round-nose ammo; many .45ACP and 9mm Parabellum of the day would jam on anything with either exposed lead of any shape, or any flatnose shape).

        • RifledDNA Says:

          Those pba light alloys are good for things like pistols and 760s, stuff were at close range you can jump the velocity enough to give you a good boost in ft/lbs but it only really does any good for 20 yards or less. The best non-lead light pellet I’ve found are the lethals, they are very consistent the way they’re made.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            RDNA
            Depends on what your shooting at. Them things act like a shotgun blast when you look at 10 shot group on your target.

            This is the kind I’m talking about.
            http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Gamo_Raptor_PBA_177_Cal_5_4_Grains_Round_Nose_100ct/399

            If I had a gun that shot a 8.4 grn pellet at 700 fps it would make around 9 fpe.

            Now if I took the same gun and shot the 5.4 grn pellet at a higher velocity of 800 fps if it could make it go that fast its going to make around 7.6 fpe.

            And here look at this. A 10.3 grn pellet in the same gun may go 650 fps and that would be around 9.5 fpe.

            Which one would you choose. And just suppose the 10.3 was more accurate. But maybe the 8.4 was more accurate. Thats the point I’m trying to make about pellet choice.

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              And I guess another good reason to own a chrony no matter what kind of gun you shoot.

              • RidgeRunner Says:

                I do not own a chrony, however I will have to get one in a couple of months. I keep borrowing a friend’s when I need one, but when I finish my TSS, I will need one for quite a bit. The only time you need one of those things is when you are tuning an airgun. Otherwise you tend to use it to overthink things. Forget how fast this or that pellet is going. The real question is whether you can hit anything with that pellet in that airgun.

              • Reb Says:

                I do agree with that! Sure does take a lotta guess-work outta the equation!

            • RifledDNA Says:

              The problem is I think your underestimating the velocity increase, a 7.9 going 700 is 8.5ft/lbs, and a 5.56 going 900 is 10+ft/lbs. The light non lead pellets give you much more velocity than 100 fps. No I don’t have a chrony but just think it takes 1100 or so to break the sound barrier. If a gun rated for 750fps with lead breaks the sound barrier then you’ve got a serious increase in velocity, enough to increase the energy in medium powered guns but not get supersonic.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            RDNA
            What are these?

            “The best non-lead light pellet I’ve found are the lethals, they are very consistent the way they’re made.”

          • RidgeRunner Says:

            Like GF1 said, it is the mass that gives you the large increases in energy, not the velocity. “What good is 550+FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at?” I have some of the H&N “green” pellets. They are very well made and if you slow them down a bit, they do not do too bad in the accuracy department.

            • RifledDNA Says:

              Gunfun and Ridgerunner- the gamo lethals are a plastic skirt and dome nosed steel insert, they claim to fame for accuracy, they have a very long profile and the way its plastic and steel they are all exactly the same. And they are, very very accurate. And the plastic skirt blows out pretty good. If you haven’t tried them they are worth a try- for the right gun – they are a gimmick pellet but they work fir what it claims and that is accuracy. Without a chrony I shouldn’t say really because I don’t know what the exact ftlbs came out to but, I just know they worked. For a medium powered pistol that goes 600 or sothey are what Im going to use. Aerodynamic is they’re other claim so retained speed my have been a better point.

              • Gunfun1 Says:

                RDNA
                Now I know what pellet your talking about. I have tryed similar pellets in different guns and just haven’t had any luck with them.

                And I think this may be something here. I think that what you call a accurate group is not a accurate group to me.

                Without naming all of my airguns. Most of them will hold under one inch at 50 yards when I find the right pellet. And I really should say that I look for the gun to shoot closer to 3/4 of a inch groups.

                Do you know what those guns will hold at 25 yards or closer. The pellets are touching and will also go in the same hole if I do my part. This is shooting from a bench rest when I test to find a good pellet.

                So you are probably right with what you say about the light pellets in your guns and at those distances. And at the size of the group you expect. But I haven’t seen any groups like what I just talked about with the ultra light pellets. And they tend to be a bit costly. If I’m going to pay good money for a pellet then I will get the JSB’s or something that I know always have good results.

                Just me you know. But that’s what I expect out of a airgun.

                • Reb Says:

                  I get frustrated if I can’t get 1″@ 30 yard or better. With local .22 pellet variety availability being almost non existent,working with the 392 has been challenging, at the least. Just can’t make your gun “like”a certain pellet! (or, maybe you can? Aah! Wouldn’t that be nice?!)

                  • Gunfun1 Says:

                    Reb
                    You haven’t heard of that gun training school. Whats wrong with you. :)

                    Just joking buddy. Sorry.

                    • Reb Says:

                      I guess a good tuner could be considered an “obedience trainer”.
                      Yeah but obedience training for guns isn’t cheap.

                • RifledDNA Says:

                  You are absolutely correct- I never get out to 50 yards. My groups are relative to the shorter distances I shoot at, and so far 180$ is the most expensive I’ve bought with NP, and really the hundred dollar blackhawk is a much better gun, so really I am kinda disappointed, but I always make the best out of what I’ve got. I had the octane ordered and it was out of stock and really Im kicking myself cause I should’ve just waited but of course Im too impatient. I hold my groups to touching each other standard. If all the shots in a group are touching at 20 yards In happy, I target shoot to hunt and enjoy getting as accurate as possible but I know I can only get so much out of 100$ guns.

                  • Gunfun1 Says:

                    RDNA
                    I have airguns that are right at the $100 range. And once I found the right pellet at 50 yrds or closer will hold a little over a 1 inch group. At 25 yrds the guns will definitely hold under a inch.

                    I think the accuracy thing and finding the right pellet will show up in any air gun you get. You just got to be ready to try different pellets. I think you would of had to do some testing to be satisfied with the octane or whatever the other gun was. Its just the way it is. Or maybe you could get lucky and run across somebody that’s been through all of that already and they could give you a idea of what brands or types of pellets to try for different uses.

                    • Reb Says:

                      Even better, find a used gun that’s already been mated. Odds are you’ll pay for this but I’ve seen a few decent deals out there just like this and some with modifications.

          • Reb Says:

            I’ve got a Crosman 1008 stripped down right now. Just doesn’t feel like it would really pay to reassemble it just to buy co2 and PBA.

  • Reb Says:

    I’m guessing this QB36-1 has a pretty heave piston, as I went up in pellet weight the groups went higher at about 3/4″@ 10 m, some a little bigger. Surprisingly, when I tried resting the gun on my bench, this isn’t changing. Don’t know what that says about my artillery hold, but this thing’s heavy. This gun is definitely more powerful than I had thought, leaving sizable dents in a galvanized telephone pole tag 15 yards away and sinking the.177 pellets in wood analog as deep as my 392! It also came with a 4X20 Red Star compact scope, whose adjustment tension is questionable, but I left it on and adjusted it. I can smell the bacon. Overall I’m happy to take it under my wing and in time, after a lot of work I’m sure,It’ll make a nice shooter, powerful enough for small game or whatever else I want to do with it.
    Thanks for the help Ya’ll!

    Reb

  • RifledDNA Says:

    Reb, the silicone spray says also a temperature range of 40 to 400* F, so Im assuming that is a pretty high flash point. With an aerosol silicone lube I think its the propellents that are flammable and they dissipate and leave just the sauce, the first shot was supersonic with 14.3s but it was the lube working, not combusting as there was no bang or burning, just the pellet gettin zipped.

  • Reb Says:

    Hey Gunfun, How’s my stock comin’ along?!

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Reb
      Read above when you asked what I have been up to. But all I can say is don’t get to excited ok.

      • RifledDNA Says:

        I still haven’t gotten any pellets besides the benji mix and the benji hps, which are all 14.3, but they seem to like the hps and domes good, the destroyer shape opens up (obviously) and the pointed haven’t been used much, they don’t leave a good mark on the paper. I want to go lighter, the hobbies on the ten for ten got 800fps, a good dome at 12 13gr will give me some flat shootin’.

    • RifledDNA Says:

      Hey man,if anyone needs a stock…. Im about to go pick out a good piece of wood. Crosman still hasn’t found one.

      • Reb Says:

        I wood but I already got mine.(pun intended)

      • Reb Says:

        That is so Awesome! I remember my Dad’s 25.06 and it was a work of art! I’m glad you have more than one gun to keep you shooting through the long process of shaping and finishing. Take your time and make it everything that you want and the reward will be a lifetime of pride and joy that you very well may hand down to some very deserving heir.

        Good Luck!

        Reb

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        RDNA
        Where and what kind of wood are you getting?

        • Reb Says:

          With the prices on the “choice” wood, being so high, It’s almost always a compromise. the really neat thing is all the things you can do to them; inlaying, laminating, thumbhole, checkering, pistolgrip, Monte Carlo, and then the finish! The possibilities are limited to your imagination and investigation!!!

          I just may be more excited than he is!

          Reb

        • RifledDNA Says:

          Oh I have no idea, Im not literally going to pick out a piece of wood. Was saying like “Imma bout to”.

  • RifledDNA Says:

    Hey, did you guys know , at least in mass, that you cannot shoot any airgun across any type of road? I just found that out and its like the only real rule for airguns here. That’s good to know, won’t be doing that ever again. That would be a good topic, get everyone refreshed on their local regulations. At my old place used to shoot out a window into woods that was across the parking lot, and from what I understand even a parking lot would be considered a public roadway, no one ever complained though. My wife has family in new Hampshire, need to move up there, wouldn’t have to even think about it with all the woods up there.

    • Reb Says:

      I’ve known of this law,regarding firearms, and it makes sense so I don’t guess I ever even considered it.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      RDNA
      You didn’t know that!

      • Reb Says:

        I remember an episode on CHiPs, where 2 kids were shooting at a road sign and a pellet missed, striking the windshield of an oncoming car culminating in a 40 car pileup!

      • RifledDNA Says:

        I can’t say I did as to exactly what the laws were but in what common sense dictates, I didn’t know was that a parking lot for your own property is a public way in that law. I did some stupid stuff in my day, but never was out of not knowing what was right or allowed, but out of the age appropriate lack of self control. I try to ask myself ” what kind of effect will this have?” before I do things, and I still make some stupid moves. I do make sure nobody’s getting hurt though always, even if I disagree with things and do what I think is my right to do.

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          RDNA
          Im sure everbody had those kid moments when they were growing up.

          But remeber you dont plan a accident.

          • RifledDNA Says:

            That’s exactly true. Its all about risk minimization, normal circumstance says we have our finger on there only when its 0% risk, but we wouldn’t be human if we could control the world. Safeshootin, and of course, have Fun! Have a good night. – RifledDNA

  • Jerry in Texas Says:

    Here is a question I have and maybe it would make an interesting topic for B.B.’s “daily blog”.

    What air guns and manufacturers will be the best bet to be able to supply repair parts for air guns passed down to our grand kids? I am 71 and have 2 grandsons.

    I just had the experience of having my 30 plus year old FWB 80 made new again by Pyramyd Air. The air pistol is worth about $500 and cost $120 to replace the seal. A good deal. It kept a cherished part of my life in good working condition for one of my grand sons to enjoy.

    When I start looking at spending $500 to $2,000 for a top rated air gun, I would like to know that it will still be working, or at least there will be repair parts and repair facilities still available when I pass them on as an inheritance. I am sure I am not the only one who has pondered this question.

    Unlike firearms, air guns have more fragile parts to wear out as in seals and O’rings. Not a big problem unless they are not available any longer. So, who has the best track record for servicing older air guns and what quality air guns do you think would make the best “long term” purchase.

    Jerry in Texas

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Jerry,

      That is an interesting topic. Besides the staying power of the company that made the airgun, it also has to do with the part — what it is and how it is used. Many airgun companies like Webley, BSA, Rochester and others left the market years ago. The Webley and BSA names are still out there, but they aren’t the same companies that made vintage airguns, any more than Winchester today is the Winchester that made firearms in the 1950s.

      But the parts for those guns are simple enough that they can be made by others with simple machining techniques.

      On the other hand, Crosman is still the same company it’s always been, but modern-day Crosman cannot replicate the feed arm cam for a Crosman 600 pistol. They could if they wanted to, but the isn’t enough demand to make it worthwhile.

      So the answer to your question is one of the company’s stability as well as one of the gun’s design.

      I’m putting it in my book.

      B.B.

      • Reb Says:

        I’d like to recommend a pre Crosman Benjamin or Sheridan, although quality parts have to be ordered through specialty repair dealers, they will probably still be there for a while and their repair/dealerships either handed down or replaced by a new generation of enthusiasts.

  • chris in ct Says:

    If you look at BBs results you can see that the Air Arm falcons are zeroed with the R8 sights but the other pellets also grouped ok if you are hunting or pest control. I have a lot of air guns some are scoped and most have open sights, the scoped guns must shoot the pellet that I zeroed the scope with to have best chance to hit my target, while guns with open sights seem more forgiving what pellet you shoot because scopes are more precise than open sights for human eye a person most likely will not be able to align open sights shot after shot on paper target than the cross hairs or reticule in a scope will. I like soft lead pellets in 177cal I prefer Beeman Kodiak’s/HN barracudas or Beeman/HN field target/trophy, because they fit all my guns breech very good with just my finger, Crosman premiers are to hard to load and I am forced to use my fingernails that damage the skirts(I know about pellet pen), And Beeman/HN are cleaner on the fingers. Most of my shooting is at knock down target(squirrel) @120ft. So basically every shot is first shot.

  • chris in ct Says:

    BB did you ever consider starting a You tube channel showing all the revues? Along with this blog.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Chris,

      Yeah, that’s what I need — something else to do! ;)

      B.B.

      • chris in ct Says:

        “If pictures are worth a thousand words” than a” video must be worth a million”.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        BB
        Speaking of something else to do. Im going to make a bet the blog has been keeping you busy lately. I didnt look how many post there were today. All them one liners add up dont they. Its like Im reading a book everyday now.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          GF1,

          To this point in time there have been 262 comments to this blog. And I read each one.

          B.B.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            BB
            Im willing to bet there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes that people dont relize to run a blog.

            But Im glad you and Edith do keep the blog rolling. :) Thanks

    • Reb Says:

      I like that Idea and have searched, and still do, the Net for quality reviews. Rick Eustler and Paul Capello have a few out there as well as quite a few others that give excellent reviews. I really like the Round Table discussions, with so much knowledge at one table, there’s almost no way to retain it all in one viewing. I love that kinda stuff! It also keeps the topic shifting in viewpoints in such a way that one cannot be bored unless there is absolutely no interest in learning.

      Hope I spelled their names right.(see shameless plugs)

      Reb

  • paoli Says:

    Feinwerk,
    Regarding your comments on the TX 200–I’ll try the H+N’s first and most likely pick up a chrony also., With a four rifle collection it makes sense at this point. What scope are you using on the TX? Thanks for your thoughts. Steve

    • Feinwerk Says:

      I use an Air Force 4-16x50ao on both my tx’s, which B.B. recommends. I set the zoom to 10x and leave it there for all around use. The range table I put on the side of the stock has the hold expressed in mildots @10x zoom for all the distances.

  • kevin Says:

    Interested in different shapes and sizes of airgun pellets? You can click on the individual photos for more info:

    http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/2009/01/20/air-rifle-pellet-database/

    kevin

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Kevin
      This is what I said above when you posted up there also.

      “Nice. And how would somebody that is just getting in to air guns know where to begin.”

      • kevin Says:

        Gunfun1,

        If they’re smart, they would come to this blog and ask B.B. for advice.

        Don’t know of anyone else that has shot a broader variety of airguns with such a large segment of discontinued, rare and readily available pellets.

        kevin

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Kevin
          Thats definatly good advice. Its always good to know somebody thats been there and done that.

          And to find somebody thats always willing to help.

          And just think part 2 is till yet to come. Hmm. I wonder what kind of discusions that will bring. ;)

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Kevin
          I’m all good I have had my favorite pellets figured out for a long long time. And I agree with what you said except for the pellet reviews. There is a lot of things to learn from the reviews if you know what to look for. Same as like we both said about the gun reviews.

          And on the other hand I have heard people say they don’t have good luck with a certain type of pellet. And I use that pellet and it works great for me. But like I always say there is so many variables involved that there is really no good way but to try for yourself and see what pellet your gun likes.

          But I will say this. The Pellet Does Matter.

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Kevin,

      What an incredibly useful site! Thanks.

      Edith

      • kevin Says:

        Edith,

        Agreed.

        A airgun pellet library that took years to compile.

        Kevin collected pellets from all over the world. He took thousands of photos, spent thousands of hours just putting pellets into molds, pouring epoxy in them and then milled them in half and took photos of pellet sections. His information on pellet BC’s along with the link he kept alive to pellet BC information gathered by the chairgun author is priceless. Kevin edited this information for years and continued to update the site.

        Unfortunately he got busy with life so we don’t have this information on the newer pellet introductions like the jsb rs or air arms falcons.

        kevin

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Kevin
          Again excellent info of what is/has been done showing what pellets are out there. That’s what I was talking about at the beginning of this blog.

          Now how do you know witch ones to pick without spending a bunch of money.

          • kevin Says:

            Gunfun1,

            Buy a Pellet Sampler. Several airgun retailers sell them. They’ll allow you to test many pellets without buying complete tins of pellets.

            One pellet sampler provides you with 25 each of 18 different pellets in a specific caliber for pellet testing.

            kevin

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              Kevin
              That’s a good idea. And do you have anymore suggestions to help somebody just getting into air guns?

              Here is something that would help also. But you have to use common sense also with this Idea.
              Read through alot of reviews about different pellets on the PA website. Not just a couple reviews about one particular pellet but all the reviews. I do this if I’m thinking about trying a different pellet. And when I’m looking through the reviews I keep a eye out for somebody to mention the type of gun like I have.

              I have done this also before I decide to by a gun. Matter of fact I go to different websites and see what a majority of people are saying about guns and pellets.

              So I would say research has to be thrown in there also before getting a bunch of pellets that may not work. Well I guess you could use those pellets that don’t work for plinking soda cans or something. So either way it should help to find the right pellet.

              • kevin Says:

                Gunfun1,

                I’ve never paid attention to pellet reviews.

                My first step in determining what pellets to try is to acknowledge the caliber of the new airgun that arrived, the power plant, the barrel manufacturer and the velocity it shoots. Doing research on other airgun forums about my new gun in the same caliber to determine what other owners have discovered shot best in their gun is a good starting point but sometimes it’s way off base since I shoot at 5280 feet in elevation. This makes a significant difference in pellet preference especially in springers.

                I have a huge assortment of pellets since I am anal about discovering the best pellet in an airgun and use pellet testing as one of my excuses for shooting airguns.

                After shooting a variety of power plants in a variety of calibers with significant variation of velocities for many years I can grab 4 or 5 tins of different pellets and with rare exception find a pellet that my new gun shoots better than I shoot.

                Don’t know if this helped you or not.

                Kevin

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Kevin I just made a reply but it posted in the wrong place. So here it goes again.

                  I’m all good I have had my favorite pellets figured out for a long long time. And I agree with what you said except for the pellet reviews. There is a lot of things to learn from the reviews if you know what to look for. Same as like we both said about the gun reviews.

                  And on the other hand I have heard people say they don’t have good luck with a certain type of pellet. And I use that pellet and it works great for me. But like I always say there is so many variables involved that there is really no good way but to try for yourself and see what pellet your gun likes.

                  But I will say this. The Pellet Does Matter.

  • Reb Says:

    Unfortunately I left my targets hanging and it’s been raining for over 8 hours. Looks like I’ll have to start over. ;)

  • Matt61 Says:

    This does seem to work against the notion that pellets make a difference, unless you are looking for extreme accuracy. :-) Or maybe this gun is very pellet insensitive. I’m grateful that my guns don’t seem to care much which pellet I shoot, at least at my distances.

    B.B., interesting about the porous casting. I had supposed that a metal surface is impervious to air. I don’t suppose you would have this problem with forged metal which is supposed to be denser, but I imagine that casting used for critical parts is made to a higher standard. Anyway, Derrick doesn’t seem to think this is the problem. We’ll see what he comes up with.

    Matt61

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Matt61
      Good point. My 1720T that I use to have would shoot pretty much any pellet good.

      That reaminds me Dave from RAI owns it now. I need to see how he is doing with it.

  • Reb Says:

    B.B., run a few Rabbit Magnums and maybe the Eley WaspMags through that thing, mix it up a bit!That’ll be interesting!

    • chris in ct Says:

      If I remember correctly those Magnum pellets need more spin(longer barrel or high twist rate) or speed to stabilize than most current air guns are capable of. I was thinking of trying some for my self in my guns. One can learn more from his or her own mistakes better.

      • Reb Says:

        Exactly! This is kind of a weird blog, usually everyone wants to see 1/4″ groups or better,however this blog is about the variety of available ammo and what works and what don’t. There’s more than one comment about this gun’s ability to produce good groups with any pellet and if it’ll do it with these, B.B. most definitely has himself one truly magnificent shooter!

        • chris in ct Says:

          I guess its up to BB is he would consider shooting 15/16grain 177cal pellets in his (beautiful gal) Beeman R8. I think worst come he would feel a unpleasant grunt from spring and air blow by the piston seal. I get that grunt in most of my 22cal springer from any pellet weighing over 21grains.

  • Reb Says:

    I just tried my heaviest pellet, also the last in my mini ammo dump. Winchester round nose 9.8, so far the heavier the better in terms of accuracy. Not bad, I’ll have to shoot these through it til I get ready to make an order.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    How come nobody has mentioned hollow points yet. or did I miss it on this long blog.

    • Reb Says:

      I did but I’m down to about 30. The clunker likes CPHP pretty decent but I’ve only shot 10 through it so far. I’ve had some pretty loose fits but these fit uniformly snug and the rounded nose helps guide them in nicely. I’ll have to try some of the premier domes also. I’ve never shot them and now I have 7 .177 rifles to feed.

  • Calin Brabandt Says:

    >This test worked as expected, but it wasn’t as conclusive as I’d hoped it would be. Clearly, I need to look >harder into these discount store pellets.

    Maybe for this gun, but as you already know and a couple of posts here lead one to conclude, maybe find a pellet-picky gun for Part 2!

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Calin,

      Welcome to the blog!

      Yes, I a, thinking about running this test again with a Diana 34. It’s very accurate but also very twitchy.

      B.B.

      • Calin Brabandt Says:

        Haha–I have a 34 in .177 and almost mentioned it, but knew you’d select a suitable candidate! You have far more experience than I but, based on my comparatively limited experience, I often wonder whether .22s tend to be less picky than .177s, though I can’t think of a good reason to explain it.

        Also, you’ve probably covered this somewhere, but can you explain how a pellet can shoot great at 10 yards but open up to twice the MOA (or worse) at 25 yards and beyond.

        Thanks,

        -Cal

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Cal,

          I can’t explain it — I only know that it does.

          The answer was supposed to be in the book, “The Bullet’s Flight From Powder to Target,” written by Dr. F.W. Mann in the early part of the last century, but he never found the reason, either. He spent 37 years researching the reasons for bullet dispersion, only to raise more questions than he answered.

          B.B.

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