by B.B. Pelletier
I’m still testing the velocity of the Evanix Renegade rifle. I’m doing such a thorough job because this rifle is very different than the PCPs we’ve seen to-date. The double-action trigger feature makes the Renegade stand on its own as a powerful repeater – something that, until now, has been very expensive.
Today, I’ll finish those questions I’d asked about velocity in the last report..namely what do Beeman Kodiaks do on double-action and how do Eun Jins perform?
Test 5: double-action string with Beeman Kodiaks
Shots 1-6
763
750
758
757
769
775
Shots 7-12
781
773
773
782
774
790
Shots 13-18
789
785
784
781
794
811
Shots 19-24 (first acceptable string)
790
789
790
798
821
830
Shots 25-30
814
813
814
812
823
838
Shots 31-36
828
825
824
817
837
839
Shots 37-42
827
838
834
833
829
829
Shots 43-48
833
833
824
826
810
812
Shots 49-54
810
809
797
796
794
791
If we weren’t convinced before that this rifle won’t tolerate a 3,000 psi fill for double-action firing, this test certainly proves it! Sticking with my criteria that a 50 f.p.s. velocity spread is the most we’ll tolerate, the first 3 strings have to be discarded. Yes, shot 18 was at 811 f.p.s., but shot 20 was back down to 789. The high was 839, so 789 just barely squeaks by. However, if we consider shot 18 as the start, we do get 37 good shots within the maximum spread criteria, but I would lop that back to 36 shots, because that’s 6 full cylinders.
The average of the 36 shots I’m counting is 817.42 f.p.s., for a muzzle energy of 31.16 foot-pounds shooting double-action. My estimate was high by 0.84 foot-pounds.
If you’re shooting squirrels in the bird feeder at 25 yards, forget the 50 f.p.s. spread criteria and use everything from the second string on, giving yourself an incredible 48 shots per fill! If you want small groups at 50 yards, better keep the velocity under tighter control. Remember how to control that by determining the correct maximum fill pressure for YOUR RIFLE! Don’t be a slave to a number!
Test 6: single-action string with Eun Jins
The AR-6 rifle was made for Eun Jin pellets, so the Renegade cylinder accepts them too. In fact, they load easier than Kodiaks because of a narrower skirt.
Shots 1-6
755
765
766
766
773
768
Shots 7-12
767
771
775
779
780
778
Shots 13-18
779
783
782
783
783
785
Shots 19-24
773
779
790
796
787
785
Shots 25-30
778
793
781
776
776
772
Shots 31-36
776
771
776
766
763
760
I stopped recording here, for the purpose of calculating the average, but I also fired another string of 6 to demonstrate what happens when the gun falls off the power curve.
Shots 37-42
761
749
750
742
724
707
The average velocity for the first 36 shots was 776 f.p.s. That calculates to 37.98 foot-pounds. So, the Renegade is capable of 38 foot-pounds with 28.4-grain Eun Jins. That’s pretty much the maximum you’ll get from this rifle. Yes, even heavier pellets will extract a little more power, but notice that the 21-grain Beeman Kodiak isn’t that far behind the 28.4-grain Eun Jin. About 2 foot-pounds is all that separates them. And, the Kodiak is 100 f.p.s. faster. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of accuracy these two pellets deliver.
You can also see that the velocity drops off rapidly when it starts to decline, which is why it isn’t a good idea to squeeze the last possible shot from every fill. Thirty-six shots is an unbelievable number for any PCP shooting at the 38 foot-pound range, and the maximum variation for those 36 shots was just 41 f.p.s. If you’re paranoid about tight velocity spreads, you could knock off the first and last strings by adjusting the starting fill pressure and still have 24 powerful shots with just 29 f.p.s. maximum spread and a slightly higher power average.
There’s a puff of air coming from around the cylinder with every shot; given how the rifle is made, I don’t see any way around it.
Test 7: double-action string with Eun Jins
By now, you’re getting a good grasp of how the Renegade performs. You’ve learned how to estimate the energy increase when heavier pellets are used, and, of course, you know how to convert energy back into muzzle velocity using the same muzzle energy article with interactive formulae. Knowing all this, forgive me for not shooting a complete string of double-action shots with the rifle. These tests are burning up pellets fast, and Eun Jins don’t come that many to a tin to begin with, but we don’t have to forgo knowing how the gun performs altogether.
Since you’re now very savvy about how the Renegade operates, I don’t have to shoot an entire string of shots to get a good picture of performance. I can shoot just a single string of 6 shots and get the same picture. We know the rifle doesn’t perform well on high pressure, so I’ll fill it to only 2400 psi. It should be very powerful there. We can tell from the Kodiak double-action test that Eun Jins will get as many or slightly more shots from a fill, so there’s nothing more to be learned by shooting a huge string of shots.
Here we go. Rifle is filled to 2400 psi.
Shots 1-6
707
700
703
704
714
715
That string should be somewhere in the middle of the larger sting of double-action shots we know are in the rifle. The average of the string is 707.17 f.p.s., giving an average muzzle energy of 31.54 foot-pounds. Compared to the 31.16 foot-pounds we got from the Beeman Kodiaks, it seems a trifle on the low side to me. I would have expected 32 foot-pounds. But, you can see we’re very close to the exact performance of this pellet in double-action. This is a good way to conserve expensive pellets.
Enough velocity testing. Next time, we’ll shoot at some targets!
Dear B.B.
My estimate for the Beeman Kodiak’s velocity in double action was in fact 813.5 for the 60-shot string, which is close enough to the 817 you got for it……!!!!
It all depends on what you will allow for the shot string….
To be consistent, I usually take 2 X the Velocity (in ft/sec) value to equal the Energy (in ft.pound) value…., basically allow 24 ft/sec variance from low to high and back to low for a 12 ft.pound rifle and allow 62 ft.pound variance for a 32 ft.pound rifle….
You will see the practical results when you do the target shooting with different Energy rifles….
malan
Dear B.B.
That last line should read…:
…allow 62ft/sec variance for a 31ft.pound rifle…..
Thanks
malan
B.B. I must be missing a obvious point….What is wrong with stings 1, 2 and 3? From SavageSam
malan,
That’s quite an algorithm you have. If it gets you as close as that, I’d say you’re on to something.
B.B.
SavageSam,
Those first three strings deviate more than the arbitrary 50 f.p.s. maximum I set for the optimum velocity variance for this rifle. I have been using the same criteria for the entire test.
B.B.
B.B.
The only way to find your maximum fill pressure is with a chronograph, right? It sounds like one is indispensable for a PCP.
B.B. and Derrick, thanks for the info about the stovepipe jams. I don’t plan on engaging in combat, but I was curious about the procedure. The method I had devised for the target range was to pull the slide enough to release the stovepiped casing, then do a press-check to see if the chamber was loaded and proceed accordingly. But maybe I should be more thorough and remove the magazine and rack the slide multiple times.
I’m curious why it took the police so long to transfer from revolvers to semiautos. My first thought was that they are responding to an age of increasing violence. However, it seems that as early as the first half of the 20th century, they had no problem with heavy hardware like Tommy guns and BARs. I don’t believe that the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde with the multiple automatic weapons fired without challenge would stand up in court today.
Matt61
BB,
The more I read about PCP’s, the less they seem to have any charm. Even you switched to tinker mode on this one, i.e., endless shot strings and finding the right fill pressure. It seems counter-intuitive that the PCP should be less consistent than a springer during the course of a few shots, but that seems to be the case.
I am assuming that high-end target PCP’s such as FWB’s do not require so much scientific investigation on the part of the user, so why don’t manufacturers try harder to make ordinary PCP’s consistent and repeatable? Granted that many people like fooling with chrono’s, guages, and pumps, etc., there are still many of us who just want to shoot and not worry unless we see a problem. I suppose that makes me an inferior shooter, but I can live with that:).
Matt61,
Yes, a chronograph is very handy for PCP owners.
As for why the police too so long to switch from revolvers – they really didn't. The 1911 and 1911A1 were only somewhat reliable when using hardball (military 230-grain full-metal jacket) ammunition, and the police have used lead bullets throughout the 20th century. They didn't want to use hardball because of over-penetration. They always have to worry about the other people in the vicinity, where a soldier doesn't.
Only since the 1970s, when guys like Wilson and Clark started making 1911s that were ultra-reliable with hollowpoints and lead bullets were semiautos reliable enough for police use.
Then the high-capacity magazines were factored in and the semiauto took the lead.
As for the use of submachine guns, don't believe for an instant that they don't have their own set of reliability problems. But is isn't sexy to show a Thompson with a jammed drum mag, because somebody has to clear it.
One of the quickest ways I know of to take the wind out of the sails of a budding "spray and pray" submachine-gun fanatic is to let him load three H&K MP5 magazines in a row. He'll remember that lesson long after the blood is staunched and his thumb heals!
B.B.
Sorry to hijack the thread, BB, but I’d like to page Derrick.
Derrick, you think the .22 is a better option than the .177 fro the Crosman pistol?
I think you just about have me ready to buy. What configurations, models, do you like best? I see PA has the .177 with the 10” barrel I did not see the .22.
Thought about the 1377 again yesterday but they wouldn’t let me have one, I was in MA and they cannot sell to Rhode Islanders.
Ciao,
Bruce
Matt61,
I’d be looking at that handgun’s extractor and ejector unless you were shooting a reduced load.
Police took forever to change from revolvers to autos because thankfully, many police officers could go their entire careers without having to draw a weapon. Then add in the equipment cost, training cost and reluctance of people to accept change…
Derrick
BG_Farmer,
Assume nothing! The high-end PCPs require just as much personal investigation. I simply happen to be using this opportunity to show how it goes.
Now it is true that the Renegade is a fast repeater. So I’m also demonstration how stable it is over a long string of shots. Most shooters might not do it this way, but they would be looking at the groups at distance and seeing how many good shots were in the gun that way.
As for the 10-meter rifles (you said FWB, and that’s what they make) – they require nothing but filling and shooting. Most of the competition shooters don’t even care that they shoot a pellet rifle. They are concerned with their score, only. The one thing they have to do is find that one best pellet.
Why don’t manufacturers “try harder”? But they do! And what we are looking at is what it looks like when that happens.
Yes, a weaker springer might be slightly more consistent, but that’s all. It isn’t as accurate – it doesn’t have adjustable power – it can’t use a wide range of pellets – it’s far harder to shoot. So when you choose a powerplant, you factor all these things in.
You know, the multi-pump guys look at springers as a huge bother. Their guns take less maintenance and operate more consistently in their eyes. So each group has the things they feel are of the greatest importance.
B.B.
il bruce,
As always, you get the caliber that appeals to you the most. If you’ve got 10,000 .177 cal pellets and no .22, your choice is easy. If you live where there’s no availability of .22, that might factor in as well. Of course, the easy fix to that is to just order 10 or 15 tins of .22 cal from Pyramyd.
Personally, I would order a .22 cal 2300 from the Crosman Custom shop with a 10.5″ Crosman barrel and a long steel breech and whatever grips fit your price range.
The 2240 from Pyramyd has the shorter barrel but the frame isn’t as well finished as the 2300 from the Custom Shop. Then you need the steel breech as a separate item…
The .22 cal seems to be much more efficient than a .177 in the CO2 guns.
The 10.5″ barrel isn’t too long or too heavy to shoot single-handed. There’s also enough extra barrel that you have the option of going shorter (with a hacksaw)if you later change your mind about the length.
Derrick
I quess you guys have seen the news bit on the web today. A toddler killed by an air-rifle (in England) by his 5 year old sister…dad ‘target practicing’ in the back yard got to talkin’ on the cell phone, leaving the air gun and children un-attended.
The ‘ban the air-rifle’ talk has already started on Yahoo…
CowboyDad
Ah, the Nanny State. It will be tough to enforce once they get to banning stones and pointed sticks.
You will have to be wary of being attacked with a banana and only have a tomato sandwich to defend yourself.
B.B.
How hard is it to get spare air tanks for an S410 or Benjamin Discovery so that you can pump up a whole bunch in advance? My main objection to PCPs right now is interrupting shooting to hand pump the tank. Scuba tanks are not an option for me.
Thanks for the info about the conversion from revolvers to semiautos. Three magazines is not many to load without a malfunction. I thought the HK MP5 was the class of submachine guns.
Hadn’t seen that bit about the accident in England. Leaving a loaded gun in the house with young kids is just crazy. If airguns even came under the same laws as firearms that would be a major hassle as far as I’m concerned.
Matt61
Matt61,
These rifles have permanent air reservoirs that don't swap out. So you are asking how much a spare set of pistons is, so you don't have to have the oil changed in your car. You can just scrub them with a toothbrush every time they get dirty.
The H&K MP5 IS the class act of all subguns, and now I want you to find a gun store that rents them and rent one to shoot. After hand-loading three magazines, you'll understand.
Regarding the accident in England – which qualifies as a stupident, by the way – when one class of incident is singled out by the press for scrutiny it can look bad. I wonder how many poisonings or drownings or bicycle fatalities there were in England last year?
B.B.
b.b., my thoughts exactly.
As I read the article I wondered how many children have died because of negligent parents not doing up the childs seatbelt.
But does anyone suggest banning the automobile??
Cowboy dad
Maybe they should ban cell phones. And Dumb-@$$ parents.
Randy in VA
Speaking of interesting PCP target guns (well, I was thinking about them), the latest post on Crosman’s Crosswords blog has a picture of what looks like a Discovery powerplant in a Challenger stock.
They call it a “Discovery Match” and to this pair of eyes, it looks very, very interesting indeed.
Any chance you can leak something to those of us who are willing to look away and pretend we didn’t hear it here?
https://www.crosman.com/croswords/2008/09/-one-of-the-hardest.html
B.B.
Firing an MP5 may be an interesting experience some day, but the last place I saw that rented machine guns was in Las Vegas.
What an interesting find by troutunderground. This sounds just like one of the suggestions on this blog for putting the Discovery powerplant in a target stock. I’m not sure how much of an advantage this set-up would have over the Air Force Edge. However, the picture shows the shooter using the rifle in a field target position, and that would be very interesting to me.
Matt61
Trout Underground,
That’s Hans Apelles, shooting a field target version of the Discovery Crosman put together for him and his son, Ray.
I don’t think that will be their next type of PCP, but they might expand the Discovery line a bit.
B.B.
Matt61,
The gun store I frequent here in Texas rents machine guns and silenced weapons. Look around. It isn’t as uncommon as you might believe.
B.B.
Matt: In my world, the big advantage would be the lower pressure needed to charge the Disco and the inclusion of a pump.
After all, buy an Air Force and you’ve still got a scuba tank to buy (or a lot of pumping ahead of you).
A 10 meter target version of the Disco would let me shoot a whole evening in the basement for only the effort needed to fill the thing once or twice via pump.
As for field target, it would be good for the sport if someone created a gun accurate enough to challenge for the win, adjustable enough to fit without a custom stock (or the $2K price tag of an EV2), and cheap enough to buy without waiting for that tax refund.
I admit I’m most interested in a 10 meter version, but I’d look hard at an FT Disco too…
this is vague and im sorry but what can you tell me about a daisy model 849?
crittercontroller
Troutunderground,
True, the next best thing to replaceable tanks is easy pumping.
Matt61
BB
Been reading your blog for a while now and thoroughly enjoy it.Kinda embarrassing having to ask questions with the rifle i have but whatever…. I recently bought a TX200HC in .177 but i cant get crap for accuracy with it. I’m shooting at 25 yards with little to no wind and my groups are absolutely awful at best, I cant figure out why. I’ve tried gamo magnums, gamo master point, gamo match, gamo hunter, crosman premier hollow point 7.9g, and crosman pointed 7.9g. I would get 1 good shot in the bullseye then the next 10 are all over. I try to use the same artillery hold every time. Dirty barrel perhaps? I’ve only shot around 650 rounds though. Scope shift maybe? nope everything is in place and all the are screws tight. I tried searching the blog to double check my self but I think I’m doing everything right on my end. I’m at a lose on what to do.
Dan
BB,
Have you seen a very promising set of velocity figures but the rifle failed in the accuracy department?
Is velocity alone a heavy indicator of accuracy?
Thanks.
David
BB
Does a velocity variance of 40fps from the first shot to shot 25 and 80-100fps to shot 50 for a Talon on full power seem right? My POI at 50 yards doesn’t drop until about shot 45. Is my chronygaph telling me right?
jeff
BB,
Thanks for the reasoned response. I realized after writing that it might seem like I was carping, but I’m really just curious about the stuff I see PCP(rifle!)-users doing. I agree that the Evanix seems like a great product, also, otherwise I wouldn’t be paying much attention.
Dan,
I have the TX200 HC .177 also… Try different pellets.. like the JBS Exact 8.4 or the Air Arms 8.2 or JBS Exact heavys 10.2 or beeman kodiak 10.6…. It could be the others are too light and or don't fit the barrel well..
My TX200 HC is one of my most accurate rifles.. I can get 3/8" groups at 60' indoors pretty easy, off my knee in my recliner.. and on a good day I've got 1/2" groups in a bench rest at 50 yards, with the JBS Exacts..
for my 2 cents the gamo pellets
are junk..
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals
B.B.
You said there might be more products from Evanix, will the a quite version be coming soon?
I love the AR6 and the Renegade looks great also.. but it is so loud, we are in the country and all, but it sounds like were are shooting larger caliber rifles here, when we shoot the AR6. I just don’t think it will work for us here at the Air Rifle Range, it doesn’t sound like an air rifle…
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
crittercontroller,
Not being familiar with the Daisy 849, I tried to look it up in the Blue Book, but I found no reference there, either. Since it’s in the 840-series, I assume that it’s a single-stroke pneumatic BB gun or pellet rifle, and worth $25-50.
B.B.
Dan,
First of all – stop trying Gamo pellets! They don’t usually work in very accurate guns.
Try JSB Exact 8.4-grain pellets and Crosman Premiers in both weights. Also try Beeman Kodiaks.
I doin’t think your barrel could be so dirty so fast, but if your rifle shoots faster than 900 f.p.s., I suppose it could be. So oil the Crosman pellets with FP-10 or Whiscombe Honey. Or stop using them.
A TX is very hard to clean. Let’s hope it isn’t that.
B.B.
David,
I have not begun accuracy testing of the Renegade yet. Be patient – I will get to it next.
B.B.
Jeff,
Your velocity variation seems a bit high, but not unbelievable. Why are you shooting on the highest power setting? Is that giving you the top velocity, or is there are place back around the number 10 where the velocity peaks? If there is, adjust the power wheel to that place and see if your velocity doesn’t tighten up just a bit.
50 shots is out of profile for the Talon on top power. The 18-inch barrel most often wants the power setting around 10-10.5. Or do you have a Talon SS and are just calling it a Talon? Because the 12-inch barrel of the SS performs differently.
Your chronograph sounds right to me, and getting 45 shots with no POI shift at 50 yards is fantastic. But are you shooting one-inch groups, or are they larger?
B.B.
Wayne,
What does “soon” mean? I know Evanix is working on a quiet rifle, but they have been doing so for over a year. I’ll expect it when I see it.
B.B.
BB,
I only use Gamo pellets because that and Crosman are all i can get here in SoCal to avoid the week plus wait from PA! I’ll order what you said though, thanks.
Dan
B.B.
Well if they have been on it for a year, then it can't be too much longer, I'll wait for the quite version of the Renegade, and shoot the AR6 in the middle of the day, it is very amazing air rifle, so accurate and powerful, but it might as well be a .22 long rifle for all the noise it makes, the only benefit is the safe distance issue.. and maybe the cleaning too.. the cost of quality pellets are about the same as .22s in bulk.
So I hope they are coming soon, it would be a perfect hunting air rifle if it was even as quite as the Condor on power setting 7.. The more I shoot the Condor the more I like it.. But I'm still not use to the eye relief, I can just barely get lined up on the scope, but it's getting more comfortable with time.. The single shot loading is the most easy of any of the air rifles I have tested.
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals
please excuse me i ment to say 840 however it is a multi pumb rifle that shoots both pellets and bbs.
crittercontroller
BB
I am shooting on setting 11-7.5 and I have a Talon with the 18 inch barrel. My five shot groups average about an inch or slightly larger and ten shot groups average 1 3/8inch. I will lower the power setting and see what I get. When you chrony test do you shoot at targets or just shoot to test?
jeff
crittercontroller,
Well, what I said goes for the 840, as well. It was made from 1978 to 1989. It is in the Blue Book, but there isn’t anything special about it.
That’s all I know.
B.B.
Jeff,
I never shoot at targets when I chrono pellets. Too many skyscreens get shot up that way, plus if you don’t shoot perpendicular to the screens, the velocity will be off.
B.B.
Jeff,
One more thing. Have you cleaned your barrel with J-B bore paste? That’s how I use to fix all the “inaccurate” AirForce rifles that were returned.
In three years, I only found one barrel out of thousands that was truly inaccurate.
B.B.
BB
I cleaned the barrel with J-B when I first got the Talon. I now have about 3600 shots through it. I don’t have a problem with accuracy. Could cleaning the barrel tighten the velocity?
jeff
Jeff,
I answer 50-100 comments every day. I must have confused yours with another person who has accuracy problems, though cleaning does tighten the shot string a little.
But you are experiencing great accuracy and are only concerned about velocity variation? As long as the rifle is accurate, don’t be concerned about the velocity.
B.B.