Home Blog  
Education / Training Refillable 12-gram CO2 cartridges

Refillable 12-gram CO2 cartridges

by B.B. Pelletier

Sorry about the blog last week. I was ill and out of my head part of the time, so I forgot about the huge three-part report on air transfer ports back in 2008 and did another one just like them only smaller on Friday. We also got some questions that I said I would blog, and I think today’s report is for one of them, though I cannot find the original question. So, I might miss the crux of the question, but I hope to show you something many of you have never seen or even heard of.

I also think I told Matt that I would shoot firearms at a shovel, to see how effective it is as a bullet shield. Before I ruin a garden tool, how about somebody setting me straight on the real importance of this? Matt?

Today, the question is about refillable CO2 cartridges. And several readers have already responded with the correct answer. That is what bulk-filling is all about. It does work very well, we know that it works well and nobody disputes that fact. Back in my Airgun Letter days, I calculated the difference in cost between a 12-gram powerlet and a bulk charge that gave the same performance. The price of a fill dropped from around 50 cents per cartridge to less than a nickel for an equivalent fill that gave the same number of shots and power. The bulk pistol I used was a .177 Crosman 111 that got 50 shots per fill at over 600 f.p.s.

So, that part of the question is answered, but I don’t think that was all the reader asked. Almost everybody who shoots CO2-powered guns ends up with a mound of metal containers that look like they should have some value, but don’t. For the past 60 years, airgunners have made them into targets, wind chimes, and other items that extract a small amount of secondary use. But the cold hard fact is that you can’t find enough uses to eliminate them all. Maybe if your castle was under siege you could load them into the cannons to repel the invaders. Lacking some wholesale use like that, you’re going to have empty cartridges to throw away.

If you don’t like it, try to convert your gun to bulk-fill operation. That’s the only way I know to get around the problem, and we all know that doesn’t always work. When the space inside the gun for the cartridge is very conformal and restrictive, there will often be no practical way to convert the gun to bulk-filling.

Therein lies my short and humorous tale for today. Back in the late 1990s, when The Airgun Letter was published, a British firm came out with a solution for this problem. Don’t convert your CO2 gun to bulk-fill. Convert it to a precharged pneumatic!

Well, let me tell you, this was all the rage when it first came out. What you got for your money was a device that let you refill a cartridge the size and shape of a 12-gram powerlet with 3,000 psi air. The cartridge was then removed from the fill station. It held the air because it had an inlet valve that was shut by the internal air pressure.

The cartridge would then be placed into a CO2 gun, where the piercing pin was supposed to force the internal valve open. That allowed the air to exhaust into the gun.


refill co2 cartridges air guns
This is the system being explained today. The fill station is comprised of the two parts on the left, and the three cartridges that get filled resemble CO2 cartridges.

For comparison, here’s one of the refillable cartridges and a standard 12-gram expendable CO2 cartridge.

Here are the things that disturbed me about this design. The gun was set up to run on CO2 at about 900 psi. All the seals were optimized for the large CO2 molecule and are nowå being asked to work with far smaller atoms of air at triple the operating pressure! I doubted that the durometer ratings of the seals, plus the tolerances of the o-ring seats and valve faces were right for such a job.

No worry, I was told by the manufacturer. The exit hole in the cartridge was very small, so that 3,000 psi air didn’t come out as fast as it normally would have.

Then there is the length of the CO2 piercing pins in each gun that had to be long enough to open the valve inside the cartridge. Are you aware of the gross differences there are in the length of these pins? Many of you own guns whose pins are not long enough to pierce a standard CO2 cartridge, and yet this thing depends on everything being the right length all the time.

Does that sound like exacting science to you? It didn’t to me, but my readers pleaded with me until I finally popped to the tune of $150 for a system and two extra cartridges, bringing the total to three. Okay, I was ready to test.

Except for one thing. The freakin’ system was only held shut by one or two coarse threads of the brass fill container when it was time to fill each cartridge. The variation was due to a variable length of each refillable cartridge.

Here is the refillable cartridge in the refill station.

This is how far the top screws down. I don’t know about you, but I sure don’t want to put 3,000 psi into that cartridge with just a couple brass threads holding things together.

Here’s what’s wrong with all of this. You don’t use brass in 3,000 psi equipment when it’s expected to contain the full pressure. You don’t thread with coarse threads when you want a joint to hold under extreme pressure. And you sure as hell do not trust your life to the strength of just one or two threads for closure!

I may not be a rocket scientist, but I can usually spot a potential bottle rocket!

I never tested this system, but I made a report in The Airgun Letter that was very similar to this one, in which I showed the equipment and discussed my concerns. Apparently, the British firm that made the equipment had never been confronted by a negative review before, because within a few weeks we received what amounted to a “Cease and Desist” letter from the company’s lawyer.

I cannot tell you how much that threat pleased me. I published it in The Airgun Letter and responded that we were a U.S. publication and even though the company no doubt had deep pockets and used lawyers as business tools, I had said nothing in my report that couldn’t be proved in a court of law. In fact, I think the trial would have been quite a circus.

Today’s moral is this–if something sounds too good to be true, if it seems to defy physics, then you’re probably better off not trying it yourself. I remember all those “magic” carburetor modifications of the 1950s and ’60s that were supposed to boost power and gas milage at the same time! We were paying 31 cents for a gallon of gas and were still too hard-headed to recognize that a huge V8 motor tasked to push a lead sled riding on bias-ply tires was always going to use a lot of gasoline.

Can you refill co2 cartridges?

It is not possible refill common 12g CO2 cartridges, although some have tried.  You may be able to purchase a bulk fill canister or you may find larger 12oz refillable tanks.

Buy your CO2 cartridges in large quantities. And please, don’t wonder if this same system could somehow be adapted to operate on CO2.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

149 thoughts on “Refillable 12-gram CO2 cartridges”

  1. Good morning B.B.,

    How about converting a Crosman AirSource CO2 cartridge to HPA for use in a 1077. A repeater HPA for under $100.00.

    Sorry, that's the Chuck in me. Seriously though, I hope you framed that letter from that company's lawyers.

    Mr B.

    • I believe there is the new Proton-X refillable 12gr with air.. Made of stainless and with a very small adaptor and an addition to the range is the Proton-X 88gr refillable with air.
      Mr. B.B..I would love to hear personally the story of the company’s solicitor that approached you re: of a no favourable report on the air cylinders..This is not true and it is first time that it comes to my attention. I was the managing director of the company and we never instructed any solicitor as we never knew or seen your report. In any case a report is a report and the findings are there as much as we all have different opinions.

        • B.B
          I personally have no idea. I would like to see this letter as we never got involved with solicitors ever in our business life. I only came accross your report/blog on the Proton-x thanks to another airgunner from another forum who put the link on. Was it a British or US solicitor? If you want to talk privately or send copy of the letter please do so to my email. Have a nice day.

          • I have the ave the walther 177 under lever air rifle. it is the replica carbine of I think 1879. .it is great. I tried the walther co2 88g conversion cylinder. it uses 2 12g cylinders. it is ok but I didn’t care for it, I prefer the proton . using my fx hand pump it is easiy pumped to 95 bar. the rifle wont work with a higher pressure, at 120 plus bar it just spits the pellet out a few yards. works great at 95 bar. get about 50 t0 60 shots before the pellets start down on the target, I don’t why the writers aren’t writing about this alternative to co2, I hunt with the contour s6 22 caliber, it is great,, no one could ask for a better rifle, I am extremely happy with the walther for targets and the contour for hunting.

  2. B.B.
    Let Matt blow a hole in a shovel…it was his idea.

    I remember one time on a slow morning that one of the civil service guys and me went through a car parts catalog and tried to see what we could do with his VW "Bug" with add on parts. After adding on all the parts we had a Bug that had 600 hp, and the gas tank would have to be drained every 30 miles.


  3. BB, I think this is like the question asking for a subsitution for Pellgun oil, that's cheaper. I have about a dozen CO2 guns and am still on the tube I bought three years ago. I also shoot them a lot. Funny thing is, most folks who ask these questions have no problem spending three bucks or more for a cup of coffee. Take care ,Robert

  4. BB,
    I'm not keen on your getting carted off for the shovel experiment, either:). One of my more eccentric older cousins shot at a gas can being held by a thief — no explosion, but the gas can was left right there; he patched it up and used it for years after that. I'd say keep the non-standard target stories anecdotal:).

  5. Let's not forget all those juvenile and dangerous and fun uses of those empties – uh, then again, maybe we should.

    I suspect it's just as well that you didn't test that cartridge system. Regardless what the manufacturer told you – I don't care HOW small that hole is, when there's no flow through the gun (between shots) the pressure WILL equalize and everything up to the gun's valve will see a full 3000psig. As you point out, that's just waaaayyyyy too much of an increase over design limits to operate with confidence.

    But why not use the exact same setup – and fill with CO2 instead of air?

  6. I've shot at a shovel with a 17HMR 17gn V-Tip bullet. About 240ft/lbs, 2500ft/s, and the bullet is designed to frag on impact with a solid object. http://www.hornady.com/store/V-MAX-c-375/

    The bullet went clean through the shovel every time. I had some 4×6" wood behind the shovel and it created a nice 3/4" deep hole in that wood.

    I would suggest using something else to protect yourself.


  7. B.B.,

    You were right not to test that cartridge. For safety, the bare minimum number of engaged threads in a threaded fastener should be three. The first thread of engagement supports 95% of the load, the second thread about 3%, the third about 0.5%. Nevertheless, although 3 threads appear to support 99.5% of the load, even if this load still remains within the elastic range of the material used, the consequent stretching of the fastener reduces its diameter potentially leading to catastrophic failure well before the breakpoint of the fastener itself is reached. Therefore, the "standard" thickness of a nut is never just three threads but much more. Moreover, there should always remain at least one quarter of the fastener's major diameter's worth of unengaged threads left over, as a safety backstop. This is just a very broad guideline: none of this addresses any of the minutiae associated with pitch of the threads or grade of the fastener, lubricated versus unlubricated status, torque, shear loading, etc.

    You did well not to test that cartridge.

  8. I remember hear about that cartridge system when it was announced and then nothing more. It sounded interesting at the time. I can see why you declined to test it. Too bad they couldn't manufacture the thing properly. Might have been interesting on CO2. Though I imaginge the interior of the cartridge is smaller than a 12gr CO2 cartridge and would hold less.


  9. On today's episode of AirGun Myth Busters we will have Tom "JamieHyneman" Gaylord and Paul "AdamSavage" Capella see if they can shoot a hole in a Russian shovel mounted on top of Crystal "KariByron" Ackley's head. Paul, hand me that Bronco over there. Oooooh! No the .177 JSB did not pierce the shovel at all! It didn't even make a dent! This myth is NOT plausible. But you know we won't stop there. Let's see just how much it would take to make a hole. Paul, give me that Career DragonSlayer over there. No, no good, no hole, but at least it made a dent in it. But, hey, we here at AirGun MythBusters never end the day without an explosion. Here, Paul, strap these dynamite sticks to that shovel. Ok, now give me that DragonSlayer over there again. WhooooHoooooo! HaHaHaHaHa! Unbelievable….Awesome…..What do you think Crystal? Crystal? Cryyyyyyystal? Adam have you see Crystal?

  10. BG Farmer, About being frugal, me too. I was also really a farmer in another life. So I've been there, done that, and still do. But folks should recognize and appreciate the fine line that does exist between the practical, and the stupid. Take care, Robert

  11. Folks,

    The state of Florida has just approved a one-month open hunting season on Burmese Pythons in the Florida Everglades. This will be open to all persons with a valid hunting license and will run from mid-March to mid-April.

    The background to this is that Burmese Pythons were imported and first openly, then clandestinely sold in pet shops. As the snake rapidly grows bigger, it soon outgrows the cage its owner bought for it, and the snake's voracious appetite for rats and rabbits soon outruns its owner's budget. Result: the idiot owners take a 20 minute drive west and release the critters into the swamp by the side of the road. There they have no natural predators at all other than the ubiquitous Florida alligator and the rarer (but more aggressive) crocodile. They feast on the plentiful wildlife, everything from frogs to Bambi and get bigger fast. Once they get past 12 or 14 feet in length only a really big gator can stop them, and those are very rare now.

    The snakes have multiplied to the point where they are now starting to seriously encroach on the developed western fringes of Miami Dade county. They come up the numerous South Florida Water Management canals into the city, and pet pooches are starting to be taken right out people's back yards.

    Tip: If you ever get a flat tire along the Tamiami Trail (and some parts of Alligator Alley) between the East and West coasts of Florida, ALWAYS scan the surrounding area before you get to work. If your flat is on off side, examine the area and if the grassy shoulder is narrow there, drive across the road to the opposite shoulder, keep your low beams on and fix it there. It is a careful judgment call, but in places it may be safer to have your butt sticking out into oncoming traffic while you're changing the tire than out over the canal that borders the road. You become very easy prey for the alligators and pythons that infest the Everglades these days.

    Anyway, Florida will train you in the ins and outs of how to hunt for these reptiles and avoid the native species, and even how to skin and tan them. The hides are valuable. All licensed hunters are welcome.

  12. BB,
    Truth be told, it's never fifty cents for a 12 gram cartridge versus five cents from a bulk fill. Most of us have to factor in the cost of the CO2 tank and related valves and adapters. It would take most of us many years of using bulk fill to recoup those costs.

    The best reason to get into bulk fill has less to do with economics–it lets you shoot some cool vintage airguns like Crosman 112s and 118s. Or it allows you to add an extended reservoir tube to a gas hog like a Crosman 600–which normally gets only about 32 to 35 shots on a 12 gram cartridge–and now get 70 shots before refilling.

    You can also bulk fill from smaller tanks like paintball with the appropriate adapters. It's a cheaper way to enter bulk fill than with a 20 pound tank/siphon tube and valve assembly.

  13. CJr,

    You make me jealous. Dangfool Comcast doesn't carry the channel that shows American Airgunner in South Florida. I think I'll have to switch to a satellite dish, just in time for next hurricane season.


  14. AlanL.,

    As of last Thursday, Danielle is now in a walking boot. X-rays showed new bone growth all along and on top of the spiral fracture. Very good sign.

    Other than a lot of dead skin and having one leg a smaller diameter than the other it seems she's doing fine.

    She's not running yet but walking quickly everywhere she goes and should build up the muscle quickly in that leg again.

    Mom and Danielle, along with other girls in her troup, went to a Walmart yesterday afternoon and sold girl scout cookies. Not sure if people took pity on them being outside in a snowstorm in a temperature of 29 or they took pity on a little girl scout in a walking cast but they sold 270 boxes of cookies in 3 hours. Since this is the primary annual fundraiser that the girl scouts endure and it's this activity that funds the girls activities for the whole year, we want to thank everyone for supporting girl scouts.

    Now you're probably sorry you asked but thank you.


  15. AlanL,

    You've obviously never had a Thin Mint. Those cookies have the combination to the flimsy lock on my stomach.

    OK, one case. What flavor?

    ps-she' already outrunning me.


  16. When we were growing up, my older broker was very interested in chemistry and "rocket fuels" in particular. My job was to find car antennas (they were hollow back then) and bring them home for him to test rocket fuel that he made in his chemistry set. NO, I DID NOT pull them off of cars. I only brought back the ones lying in the streets.

    One day, he tried a CO2 cartridge as his vehicle. I remember it traveling about 10' and then blowing up spectacularly, just like one of the early Werner Von Braun rockets. No one was hurt.

    Today he gets to blow things up all the time – he works at Picatinny Arsenal.

    Fred PRoNJ

  17. By far my favorite bulk fill CO2 system has to be the Shark rifles. The reservoir is threaded for a paintball tank. You just screw it on, wait a few seconds, then screw it off. And the .22 roundball pump repeater has got to be one of the most fun guns I've ever shot. If you can find one, better stock up on .22 roundballs. You'll go thru A LOT!

  18. Everyone,

    I have decided to recant and withdraw my offer to "test" the shovel. You all cautioned my of the same things my gut was telling me, plus what would be the point? My test would be far from scientific, and who would ever use the information?

    I will chalk this up to me being out of my head and vulnerable to suggestion last week.


  19. Hi BB,
    I know that this question is not on topic, but I am not sure where else to ask it.

    I am looking into getting either the Crosman Quest or the Crosman Phantom. I would get a gas piston breakbarrel, but I only want to spend around $100.
    I was wondering, what is your take on these two guns?


  20. B.B.

    No reason to apologize for the transfer port blog. I'm holding out for tubercles or ridges to break up parasitic drag in the port. And I haven't yet heard the reason why a funnel-shaped port that narrows as it goes forward won't improve things although perhaps not much.

    Regarding the shovel, my theory is that the effectiveness of the shovel as a deflector is a function of the angle it is held at. Surely, there is some angle that will work. There are enough anecdotes of bullets being deflected off metal belt buckles and even Bibles that there must be something to this. Besides, did you know that the way James Bond beats the villain Donovan Grant (Robert Shaw in the movie version) in the book From Russia With Love is by sliding his gunmetal cigarette case over his heart where Grant is aiming? The round used is small enough to be fired from a mechanism hidden in a book. Must have been a .25 cal. When Bond gets hold of the book after playing dead then launching a surprise attack, it takes a whole fusillade to stop the guy. So there. Anyway, I expect that the experiment would establish which calibers and which angles the deflection would work at. The more you deflect the shovel, the less coverage you get. It would be a last ditch defense at best against people who wouldn't believe a shovel could stop a bullet….:-) Anyway, it's not a good reason to ruin a good shovel or create a deflection hazard either.

    Now Burmese pythons are a reason to keep a razor sharp shovel handy although you would want something else too. I wonder if the state of Florida will get takers.


  21. B.B.

    Here, in Russia many people make refillable CO2 cartridges for sale or just for their own use. They make it from all 3 sizes – 8, 12 and 88 gram, using CO2 fire extinguisher as a filling reservoir.
    Everything is quite simple – cut the neck, counterbore it, then thread and put there some type of valve, it looks like tyre valve, but it's used for filling fridges and conditioners (it can withstand low T and aggresive substances like CO2, with its PU seals). Then screw in and fix it there with some sealant or just screw it in and solder it with some cold-resistant alloy. If everything's done right, it'll work for a several hundred uses.
    I'm not much in CO2, but guys who use them say they work just fine.
    All you have to do is to freeze them, fill them with CO2, weigh and if it's ok – use it.
    This way every shot comes 1/5 or even less the price, as every Crosman 12-gram cartridge costs here something like 0.6-0.7$ and all the job will require just a little money and some straight hands – and you can use them almost indefinitely. CO2 itself is very cheap, refill stations for them are in every firefighter unit.
    And of course a big extinguisher is always a nice item to have around, just in case. (In Russia we say – "na vsyaky pozharny" – "in case of fire") 🙂


  22. Matt,
    Don't forget the famous Old Hickory duel, where the story is that he moved his button in order to throw off the opponent's aim, took a ball to the chest and then shot back, killing his opponent. Since he carried that lead to his grave, perhaps a shovel would have been better:)?

    My concern for BB's experiment was that if the shovel is turned to deflect the shot successfully, it is impossible to tell where it will wind up and what damage it might do unless he's in the middle of the Mojave or something — most ranges don't provide much protection against shots in any direction except toward the target area.

  23. BB,

    That's what I thought, the actions look identical. The only differences that I can notice are the stock and sights.

    The Quest has a wood stock and plain iron sights (that look alot like a Winchester 1894's sights).
    And the Phantom has a synthetic stock and fiber optic sights.

    I will probably go with the Quest, but I just wanted to see what you guys think.

  24. EnergySamus,

    I don't believe we have ever had a review done on the Crosman Quest on this blog. I suggest going to Pyramyd Air's site and seeing what the users have to say about the Quest. YOu can find that here:


    I do know that the rifle is of chinese manufacture and there were some comments about quality control and an "iffy" trigger – read rough, not precision made.

    I would suggest the same thing for the Phantom – do a search on the Pyramyd website and see what the review there say.

    In past blogs, it was recommended that a Ruger Air Hawk or Blackhawk was a better quality rifle, for the money. It will also depend on what you wish to do with it.

    Fred PRoNJ

  25. EnergySamus,

    As a Quest 800 owner, I strongly encourage you to save up a little more and buy an RWS 34 – you'll save money in the long run, unless you just want something for an occasional shot at vermin.

    Mine is a nice shooter now, but it ended up costing more than the 34 would have after the rebuild and custom tune. I wish I bought the 34, as I bet it would be a bit more accurate than my Quest even after all the work, and I would have more money in my pocket than I do now. The long story is in the reviews on the Quest 800 at PA (and the Phantom is the same basic gun). But in short, I bought two (one for my dad) and they both failed.

    Sometimes spending a little more up front is really the lowest cost way to go.

    And BB – that link in today's post for bulk 12 gram CO2 is the very definition of "bulk." Wow, a 500 pack! I was laughing at that one – can't imagine trying to justify that one with the wife . . . .

    Alan in MI

  26. EnergySamus, you are right about the two rifles. They are the same. Not sure where you're seeing that the Quest doesn't have FO sights, but it does. Although the FO elements in the rear sight are rather dim and the sight itself is poorly made.

    I haven't played with a Quest variant for some time, but unless something's changed rather drastically in the past year or so you'd have a fair chance of getting one that needed some 'sprucing up'. That said, when they're running right they can be a great little package – light, easy to cock, easy to handle, good power, easy to work on, and great parts support from Crosman.

    If you've only got $100 to spend and are looking for something in the 14+ ft-lb range, well… frankly I can't think of anything else that fills the bill.

    Keep in mind, BTW, there are a lot of Quest variants… Remington Summit, Sierra Pro, Storm XT. Not to mention some of the the Stoeger airguns.

  27. Matt61,

    Re your last ditch comment above about using a shovel to deflect a bullet. I'd use the shovel to dig that ditch and get my head and body down instead. Works every time without having to worry about the angle of the ditch. 🙂

    Mr B.

  28. BB

    Thank you for your generous offer to do a blog on the strip down of the TX200. I, and a multitude of others, gratefully accept.(I would probably be better served by a tutorial on how to put one back together;^) Also any observations on the rifle that you have had in the years since you last wrote about it, would be appreciated.

    Nothing like some quality time with one of your favorite air rifles, right?


    Take it easy, and feel better.

  29. B.B.

    And considering shovels.
    Shovel is one of the favourite tools of power measurement.
    Shovels here are made of 2-2,5 mm carbon steel. Broken shovel is a typical source of steel for an utility knife in villages. And of course the way the test shovel is placed plays a big role. Usually they put it vertical and shot comes straight.

    I've never seen the effect of .38 or .50 airgun on the shovel, but .177, .22, springers/PCP do not even make a dent on it. Just nice flat round or star-like pieces. Some high-energy .25 from PCP could not mark it.
    .22LR is most time useless – may make a mark.
    9×17 FMJ make a pronounced dent, but does not come through.
    9×18 Makarov (I call it sub-AP, as Soviet 9×18 Maks have some mild steel mushroom-shaped core inside, it gives modest-powered round some more penetration and makes production cheaper) – a hole.
    Everything up the power scale – holes.
    However it does stop 00 shot from shotgun, with dents.


  30. Duskwight,

    Necessity is the mother of invention, but I always thought that a few boards could replace a Chrony and mathematical calculations, albeit with less accuracy. I keep both pine and oak that are very telling. From what I can recall shooting solid metal with pellets tends to splatter them at high velocity. I may need to grab a shovel.

    By the way, what is your favorite Vodka?

  31. BB,I thought something was odd about you volunteering for the shovel testing,as busy as you are.Wacky Wayne missed a prime opportunity……to run headfirst into Edith's boxing skills!I'm glad you are feeling better!A shovel as a shield for a guy like me would be like Adam with a fig leaf!!!!I would need a 'dozer at least.Glad you are back to your old self….Frank B

  32. Volvo

    I don't drink vodka, comrade, and I strongly advise you to do the same 🙂
    And neither I nor anyone else here spells it with capital V as if it is something sacred or respected 🙂

    If you want to make a rough comparison between pellet speeds, you'd better use some thick books printed on cheap paper, like phone books, as their material is more homogeneous and "predictable" than wood.

    Anyway Chrony is much more precise, here they are quite cheap (ranging from 50 to 100$) and simple ones can be assembled and programmed literally in an hour with your own hands – the Net is filled with blueprints.
    A bit more advanced Chronies can transfer data to your laptop or handheld or some advanced cellphone and calculate energy and ballistics right the time you're shooting.
    And of course even using pen, paper and ballistic pendulum is much more precise and useful when fine-tuning a springer than any number of wood 🙂

  33. Volvo,

    You can also get a good estimation of velocity just by shooting at targets at two different distances with the same POA (no scope adjustment or holdover). The differences in drop from POI, plus knowing (or estimating) the BC of the pellet, and some complicated math and you can figure out the answer. But to make it easier, ballistics calculators like this one sure help: http://www.airgunexpo.com/calc/calc_mve.cfm?

    I did this before I got a chrony, and it put me in the ballpark. I used it to confirm a problem with a spring, as it clearly showed a drop of about 200fps in a gun. But a chrony is so much better (and I'm using it with my kids and their Nerf guns to teach them the basics of statistics).

    Alan in MI

  34. FRED in PRoNJ

    Sorry to get you confused with Frank B. You were both cruising in beautiful, sunny weather and both your names start with an F. I also get distracted by shiny metal objects.

    What are you riding now, a Harley? If I weren't convinced I would kill myself it two days flat, I would go out right this minute and buy a Triumph Scrambler.


    I think Steve McQueen would approve.

    I think I mentioned before I used to live in NJ in my youth. It is a beautiful place to ride a motorcycle. It isn't called 'The Garden State' for nothing!

  35. Duskwight,

    I have owned a chrony for many years, but I like to shoot alternative materials just to see what the affect of a known velocity is. It has no scientific purpose and is simply for my own amusement, but I do recall shooting a phone book or two as a kid for “technical” reasons.

    Certainly just a stereotype, but I must admit I am a tad disappointed that you don’t indulge in Vodka.

    The number one selling brand in my state of Ohio is Kamchatka, which while named after an area in Russia, hails from the far off land of Kentucky I believe.

    Happy shooting.

  36. BMW fans,

    Gotta chime in and brag about my single-cylinder R26 that took me to college. A single-cylinder shaft-drive bike with about 15 HP (generously).

    I rode mine from San Jose to Lake Tahoe, but then I did the same with a 125 2-stroke Benelli that barely made 6 H.P.


  37. Kevin,

    Nice. Few things make me sadder than the sissified drinks of today. Coffee has turned into something with more flavors and sugar added than the sweetest dessert. And don’t even get me started on martini’s.
    I fear real anything will only be a memory soon.

  38. Frank B,

    if you want a nice, pre-war BMW then run down to your friendly, neighborhood URAL dealer. You can get one in camo. You won't be able to do highway speeds here but hey, it's good for backroads. And if you get the two wheel drive side car with machine gun mount, you can go off-roading or ride in snow storms. Price is $6- $10,000.

    Slinging Lead – Jersey used to be much better to ride around back in the early 80's. It's so damned crowded here now that riding is only fun in the extreme north and western parts of the state and even then, Greenwood Lake can be a nightmare on the weekends. Better to go into Orange County, NY.

    That Triumph Scrambler is a neat looking bike with a rather under-tuned engine built for folks who don't care about how fast their bikes go. it's perfect for newbies because of the docile engine.

    I currently have a 1995 Triumph Sprint (original owner), a 2006 Suzuki DL650 aka Wee-Strom and a 1978 Yamaha SR500 which my buddy rode back from Colorado when his bike exploded going over the Rockies, on our way back from Mexico. It just sits in the back of my garage for sentimental reasons.

    My son rides with me and I bought him a Yamaha FZ6 – a 600cc what is known as a "naked" bike. No fairing.

    Regarding vodka, did I ever tell anyone other than BB that my last name is Nemiroff? Unfortunately, no relation. That's just the town my grandfather and his brothers came from in the late 1800's. They got tired of being beat up by the Cosacks. Duskwright, I am really impressed with some of the innovations you have mentioned.

    Fred PRoNJ

  39. Volvo,

    Stereotypes are deceitful.

    I work for event industry, so I have to know something about spirits.
    As for vodka I can say – vodka can be ONLY Russian, 'cause the name itself is copyrighted, it's like cognac. Any other drink is NOT vodka 🙂
    Poles like to sell their potato beverage under the name of vodka – but it's not vodka, 'cause vodka can be made only from grain. Some immigrants from USSR or Russia mix ethyl alcohol with water in 'States – but it's not vodka, 'cause vodka's big secret is water. Another one is the filtering of alcohol.

    You can not fake water with all its salts and ions and dissolved gases. Springs are in Russia, so…

    Water is what makes vodka's taste, and burn and so on.
    You might not know this fact, but great Russian chemist Mendeleev (the guy who invented periodic table of elements and Russian smokeless powder) was the first to come to scientific explanation of the process of mixing pure alcohol and water. It is all about ionic form of binding, and so he found that 40* or 80 proof is the best – all molecules of alcohol connect themselves to molecules of water. So 40/60 alcohol/water mix's taste is the best – it doesn't burn and it doesn't taste weak.
    Filtering is another story, it can go up to unimaginable degree of purity, 'cause it's fusel oils and other impurities that give vodka bad taste and you – a good hangover.

    Long story short, labels are:

    "Big three" – Stolichnaya, Moskovskaya and Pshenichnaya. Good, absolutely genuine drinks made by famous "Kristall" distillery in Moscow.

    Smirnov (Смирновъ – old Russian spelling) NOT Smirnoff (immigrant stuff) good, "upper standard" vodka

    Russkiy Standart ("Russian Standard") the name is the story, "upper standard" vodka.

    Beluga – the name is the story. Imagine some 1-ton sturgeon :)It costs like caviar and some say it's THE best. It is said that it gives no hangover.

    BTW, Volvo, Kamchatka is not so far from US 🙂 – just across Bering strait from Alaska and a bit to the south, huge peninsula twice the Florida size. It is home for Geyser valley and biggest brown bears in Russia – 350-450, up to 600 kilos.

  40. Duskwight,

    I agree that Stereotypes are deceitful. Is such were true, one would expect my Irish father’s family to have enjoyed whiskey and beer more than most and my mother’s Italian immigrant family to…well, never mind.

    The lesson on Vodka was most enjoyable. In the states, Russian vodka was an issue at times so the alternatives from Sweden and the like became very popular.

    I appreciate your knowledge on the history of the beverage.

    Seems you and I should share a bottle of Beluga some day.

  41. duskwight,

    That is interesting about Vodka – I did not konw that.

    So it is just like Scotch then – others can make it from the same basic ingredients, but can't call it by the name unless it comes from the correct country. I wonder why it has not been enforced?

    I'll make sure all my future purchases are of the real stuff! Thanks for the recommendations.

    Alan in MI

    WV "clutzing" – what all those clear grain beverage copy cats are doing?

  42. BB,
    Hey, I still have a Benelli–although it takes .22 LR rather than gasoline to make it combust.

    Daisy does not sell eye cups for the Avanti precision diopter sight so I'm still on the hunt. Thanks again for checking. Thought I'd just post a follow up for anyone else looking for sight parts someday. I'll either turn one up or I'll transfer one from gun to gun as needed.

  43. Derrick38,

    I have a metal Daisy 880 and 881 I am selling on the yellow. If you are interested I would give you a sweet deal as long as you brought your HW35 along when you came over to pick them up. I have never shot one and would like to try it.

    The 880 is a little newer I think, but the 881 hails from 1975-76. The 881 is a half pound heavier.

    I also have a couple of mounts – new RWS dropper and an older B-Square that adjusts that I will include.
    Email if you’re interested.

    Thanks, Volvo

  44. No no no no….

    Vodka is generic and can come from anywhere. "Vodka" is a slavic word for "water", and the Russians originally did not call their vodka "vodka".

    Champagne, (by most country law, including EU and US), MUST come from the Champagne region of France.

    The first recorded use of use of "vodka" as an alcoholic was not even in Russia, it was Poland. Addtionally, (even in Russia), vodka can be made from just about anything, and is quite frequently made from potato.


  45. Alan L:

    I agree – the Holy Grail of air rifles is one that can launch supersonic and stay up there for about 50 yards.

    Why not just use rimfire? Two reasons:
    First, a 1350fps air rifle is still not in the rimfire power range, (unless we're talking very heavy pellets which isn't vey likely).

    Second: Air rifles are legal where rimfires are not.

    I don't think diabolo pellet designs will work, but there are some out there that just may.

    To the vodka guys – Ed Pikor is right, there is no copyright, trademark, or patent, on the word "vodka" or the beverage "vodka".

    In this country, you can mix ethanol with water and sell it as vodka….(and whoever told you alcohol molecules "connect" with alcohol molecules was, well, drinking too much vodka. Alcohol in water is the clasic "racemic mixture" we all studied in Chem 101.
    It is "mixture", and it is chemically the same in any proportion.



  46. Anonymous Mike :),

    Well sometimes you feel that laws are stupid, but they are laws and have to be obeyed.

    Handguns in Russia are prohibited for civilians. Well, maybe guys at the top are afraid 🙂
    Despite that law criminals find ways to arm themselves the way they like, and police… Well, let's just say despite President's best efforts it seems to look much like US police during 30's and even worse. I wish him luck in reforming it.

    Here's what you can have in Russia – trauma pistol, smoothbore, and after 5 yr period of owning a smoothbore you can buy yourself a rifle. Of course, you are not limited to own _one_, it's up to five, and with a special licence you can own a real collection.

    To get a licence for trauma/smoothbore you've got to be 18, to have clean criminal record, be clean of drugs and alcohol abuse and be mentally healthy. Also you must pass an easy exam and have a gun safe to store your pieces and ammo. Then you buy a gun, register it in your local police detachment and you are free to hunt with it, practice with it or defend yourself inside your home or land against criminals.
    You can also carry trauma pistol with you to protect yourself.

    Popular airguns… Hmmm…

    Well, numerically I guess it would be MP-512 breakbarrel so-called "murka"("purry"(?) a cat's name). MP-513 sold at P.A. is its bigger sister, with different trigger action and magnum power.

    Think of it as of springer AK: cheap, simple, rugged, reliable and when handed right – precise and effective. Most buyed for just plinking, but some tune the action, install gas springs, cut and crown the muzzle and fitted with good custom stock it can even make appearance in some FT (at least I know a guy who makes some decent results with it).

    Cheapest ever 10m springer is MP-60 or 61, aka Izh-60/61.
    It was some issue with names, as "Izh" is a firearms maker, and MP is "(Izhevsk) Mechanical Plant" its side business. Another example of Russian AK-style. Hammer-forged barrel (every Russian springer has it) and light recoil gives it brilliant accuracy. However, since they started making it in plastic – well, people here prefer to pay 2.5-3 times the price for used metal ones.

    Then I guess comes Gamo breakbarrels, with Hunter 440, Shadow 1000, roaring Hunter 1250 (British edition preferred to Turkish) and fixbarrels, CFX Royal reigning.
    Also, everything that can be tuned is tuned – smooth custom action, crowned barrels, gas springs, custom stocks – anything to make it as precise as possible.
    I myself own tuned CFX with LW in custom fullstock, made by my measures.
    I love her and I hope she loves me for all the JSB's I feed her 😉

    I don't take Chinese or Turkish scrap metal into acccount, despite their number may be great. Scrap metal – enough said.

    Springers' top is reigned by RWS (namely D-350, D-460, D-54), Weihrauch (HW-97 laminated) and AirArms TX-200 MkIII. I guess no comments needed on that.

    Prices are just like everywhere – local stuff is cheap, imported stuff is sometimes _hugely_ overpriced and Chinese scrap metal is as cheap as snow in winter.

    And PCP stuff – well, I'm not a big PCP fan, but I believe PCPs in Russia are just like anywhere in Europe with some local-made brands like EdGun and Demyan.


  47. Ed Pikor,

    Slavic for "water" is "vodA", not "vOdka".
    "Vodka" is tender diminitive. See the difference? It's just like Celtic "uisce beatha".
    "Vodka" in Polish is "wódka" or "gorzała".

    Ed, you can mix even hydrolised synthetical ethanol and distilled water, but it won't be vodka, it's just like "French Whisky" or "Synthetic Bourbon" if you know what I mean.

    Vodka is made from grain. Period. Stated by Czarina Elizabeth I of Russia in 1751, confirmed by Czar Alexander III in 1894.
    Russia's priority in creating vodka was confirmed by international arbitration in 1982.

    Anything else is cheap imitation even if it's Russian-made and is treated accordingly.

    Why Russians didn't patent its name? Well, I guess we are a bit above it (maybe that's why Russians are not so good in making money). So why care about obvious recipe and who cares about Poles? Drink, comrade :), and enjoy it.


    I don't think you were trying to insult me, but things are as I learned them.
    And I don't drink vodka.


  48. Ed and Jane,

    I actually have a small hard bound book on Vodka not to mention access to the endless resources on net. But black and white is so terribly boring, however our new friend’s story and his obvious pride of country I find very entertaining.

    Here's to me…

  49. duskwight,

    Veryyyyy interrrresting :-).

    Welcome indeed… and keep those comments coming, I am totally engrossed!

    "It's the water"

    some how we should all know that!

    …but where does "Bushmills" fit into the picture?

    Wacky Wayne "Burns"

  50. Frank B

    Thanks for the mention of the r35 BMW motorcycle. It is rolling art. I was going to talk about the Ural, but Fred beat me to it. That is based on the BMW R71, the design of which Hitler sold to Stalin prior to WWII in the Molotov/Ribbontrop pact.

    I read an article about the Ural with sidecar in the May 2009 edition of Motorcyclist magazine. The author is talking about a Russian mechanic he knows named Ivan. Ivan was quoted as saying "In Russia, everything is sh*t… nothing but sh*t! We learn to make sh*t good." Fortunately the Ural is now made with parts from Nippon/Denso, Keihin, Ducati, Brembo, and gears are cut by KTM's supplier, Herzog. We all know Russians make outstanding products when it really matters. Mosin Nagant ring a bell?

    Somehow it does not surprise me to learn that BB rode a BMW motorcycle, the r26 to college. If he had it today it would still run like a top. If anyone is curious check this out:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qb3OImyc4Y …beautiful

    My favorite car that I have ever owned and still own, is a 92 BMW 325i 4 door in gun metal grey. Imagine go cart handling with luxurious black leather interior and tinted windows. It was built in 91 so it is nearly 19 years old. She purrs like a kitten, growls like a lion and I get offers to buy her all the time. Dream on suckers!

    Incidently, when buying vodka I go for Skyy, made in America. It has a four column distillation process, is then triple filtered and the water goes through a reverse osmosis process for the ultimate in purity. It also comes in a beautiful cobalt blue bottle. Kettle One, Grey Goose, Belvedere,
    and Van Gogh are all good but grossly overpriced. USA! USA!

    I believe the word that vodka is based on translates to "water of life",

    Vodka. Motorcycles. Airguns. Firearms. Fluid Dynamics. Tactical Flashlights. Kitties. I love this place, best forum ever.

    Anyone know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

  51. Volvo,

    Couldn't agree more.

    Society is becoming diluted. Courage confused with violence. Eating right confused with slim waistline. Earned respect confused with wealth. etc. etc.

    I refuse to open the liquor cabinet for anyone that orders coke in their cognac or red bull in their vodka.

    My best man Paul Hazdra (may he rest in peace) grew up in Prague,
    Czechoslovakia. He introduced me to stolichnaya. Taught me to keep it in the bottom of the freezer. He was an amazing cook especially with wild game. Before every feast it was a tradition to toast the guests, those that couldn't join us and the deceased. His widow Aldona (Lithuanian) spent almost a month with us last summer and we had a wonderful time reminiscing and making new memories.

    Looking forward to sharing a few bottles of Beluga with you.


  52. BB

    Can you tell me how to get my Delta-Force 900 Chinese rifle to shoot 1800 fps and… if you have time, what is the formula for making your own Pelgun Oil in 10 gallon batches?

    Good morning! Just thought I would wake you up with a little humor today… very little!

    Brian in Idaho

  53. Wayne,

    Finally a chance for me to shine. Old Bushmills was first distilled over 400 years ago in Ireland and is magically delicious. The anniversary stuff is very pricey but you can refill the bottle with the standard blend…here’s to you..

  54. duskwight,

    Ya tozhe ne piu….

    Nice hockey win over the Czechs yesterday.

    So, in Russia you don't need a license for an airgun? How about archery equipment? Do you need to go to a designated range, or can you just go out in a field somewhere? Lotta questions, I know, just curious.


  55. Kevin,

    When I read…
    "it doesn't burn and it doesn't taste weak." I was reminded of Bushmills' smooth whiskey.

    and I haven't put it in coffee yet.. I'll try it.. but I'm gonna get some way better coffee first!.. and make it with pure spring water from "Tub springs"..

    .. where the Applegate trail folks stopped to fill their barrels. on the "Oregon Trail"

    I never got a taste for vodka.. probably since I never tried the "good stuff".. but now..

    Wacky Wayne

  56. Slinging lead,

    One of the keys to way off topic is waiting until B.B. goes to bed, which by all accounts appears to be 8:10PM. Prior to that, factor in time for a cup of warm milk that Edith brings him. I picture his bedroom attire as the pink bunny suit from the Christmas Story, no doubt a gift from Edith.

    As far as last week’s “cough syrup” incident, well Bill Murray was the first to publicly note the effects. Be forewarned.


  57. B.B.

    If your BMW was as sweet looking as that one… WOW! way too cool and ahead of it's time.

    San Jose to Lake Tahoe! what a ride! I'll meet ya their in two weeks! I'll be riding my burro for a test drive, before I take her into the wilderness for gold..

    She's just tall enough for me to help push with my tippy toes..

    Wacky Wayne,
    Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

    ..and happy owner of another marlin 1894 cowboy carbine.. this one in .357 mag so.. a matching set now with the one in .45 long colt.
    one for each side.. I've got the S&W27 in .357 mag. and now also on the way a rebuilt 7-1/2" barrel Ruger Blackhawk in .45 lc to boot. He's gonna re-blue it for me too! Now I don't have to arm wrestle Nate to get my "Judge" back.

    ..(thanks to Frank B. for helping switch my collection around a little) .. like B.B. said "you just have em for awhile"


  58. I'm reading an airgun forum,why am I so damn thirsty??? BB,congrats on commuting on an r-26!Life is the adventure you make of it!Reverence for anything from one's home is a good thing.How funny that in Russia the metal 61's are at a premium….no suprise there. Thank you Duskwight,you have shared alot of interesting things,That's what keeps us coming back to this world airgun community blog. Frank B

  59. Volvo,

    Pink bunny suit, oh that's soo funny. i cun harly type im laughing so hard. i've got tyo get that picture aout of my head..too funny

    bill murray was at regis here in colorado when my wife attended. she said she doesn't remember him, hard to believe. I think the cough syrup is from Stripes??


  60. Volvo,

    Sell those Daisys and make room for more.

    I'm more than happy to let you borrow the HW35 anytime. I'll leave it with you for a while and you can shoot it to your hearts content. Email me and I'll figure out when I'll be down your way in the next week or so.

  61. Bulk fillable CO2 cartridges were available to us in the Philippines during the early 1980s. You could buy them for a few dollars each at most any sporting goods store that carried American CO2 cartridge pistols. They were made of high tensile strenght brass instead of steel and were shaped like the ordinary CO2 powerlet cartridge. The other differences were that the nozzle end already had a small hole and an inlet valve was installed on the side of the cartridge close to the rounded end. It only worked on air pistols that exposed the cartridge when you removed one grip panel. You seated this special cartridge like an ordinary CO2 powerlet with the inlet valve facing outward. You then screwed in your bulk fill tank and loaded the powerlet and gun with CO2 that way. Worked quite well, although you got fewer shots because the valve mechanism took up to 1/4 the space that an ordinary cartridge would have. I think I may still have one or two of those rolling around in a tool box in Manila.

  62. Dave,

    Here airguns are for sport in .177. Everything up the scale in power and bullet diameter is for hunting, so it must be licensed.
    Bows and crossbows are for sport, Hunting with bow or xbow is prohibited here AFAIK. I don't know why, 'cause as far as know it's lots of hunting but not much result.
    Maybe it's because bow reqires a very good shot placement, and unskilled bowmen can make a lot of wounded game, difficult to track and to finish off. It's against the Big Rule – if you kill, make it quick and save the game from suffering. I guess hunting rules for bows and xbows will be developed in short perspective.

    Still 12 smoothbore is quite enough in Russia for most hunters and most game from woodcock up to moose or brown bear.


  63. Slinging Lead,

    Thank you for that clip of the R26. Yes, that was my bike back in the 1960s. Mine was not as complete and original as that one. It didn't have the extra lights, the crash bars or the saddlebags, and I had a dual saddle, but mine was almost as pretty as the one in the film. Or at least that it how I choose to remember her.

    That bike is a rolling concourse!

    What a lucky owner.


  64. Wayne,

    You want "way better coffee?" Now I can help.

    What you want is a half-pound of crappuchino, also known as cat-crap coffee.

    I see that it is now also sold as monkey-poo coffee, also, but the stuff I'm talking about comes from Indonesia and is made from coffee beans taken from the feces of a local cat-like creature that eats coffee cherries and poops the beans back out. Look for Kopi Luwak coffee.

    In the animal's stomach the digestive juices remove the acid from the beans, which makes a stunningly great cup o' Joe. When I had mine a few years ago, it came straight from the Indonesian jungle and was the smoothest coffee I had ever tasted to that time.

    Unfortunately there is the cost. Expect to pay well over $100 a pound, and maybe double that. The problem is the collection of the feces and cleaning of the beans is hugely labor-intensive.

    However, there is a way to brew a cup that tastes just as good using regular beans that sell for $10 a pound. It's called cold brewing, and it is the only way Edith has brewed coffee for the past few years. The stuff to brew costs about $30 at a kitchen store and I don't think that it's possible to fail.


  65. Volvo,

    Now I am publically embarrassed. My bunny suit is NOT pink! It's light blue.

    Please correct your error everywhere you have posted it. A kid I know was rumored to have worn dinosaur pyjamas, and the other kids never let him forget it.

    Stuff like that can ruin a guy's reputation.


  66. duskwight;

    Thanks for the great reply on guns and airguns in Russia. I have always been impressed by the Russian people's ability to get things done, even with limited resourses. Also, Russian guns work, I have a Russian SKS, very well made and works every time. One gun I would like to see is the AN-94. But, it probably won't be seen in the West for some time.


  67. Mike,

    May God keep you from seeing AN-94. It's _ugly_. And may He not allow you to look inside, as it reminds me of a cuckoo clock.
    I have my own theories about the reason it became an army model, but trust me, it's not an army weapon, rather an experiment. 2-shot stabilised burst must not cost this much in means of engineering. If you haven't seen them, I can give you links to photos of its disassembly, but i warned you 🙂
    Better look for AEK-971/973 with its balanced automatics, allowing EVERY shot to be stabilised or AK-107/108 with the same feature. These look and feel much more like an assault rifle.


  68. Well that does it! I like what Duskwight had to say and my curiousity has gotten the best of me. I'm gonna make a few refillable cartridges and see what happens. I'm gonna put clean food grade triple filtered low h2o content co2 in 'em and try 'em out. I'm with you fellas. I don't like the idea of pumping a powerlet up with 3kpsi of air any more than I would pump up my SCUBA tank to 14kpsi. 5# of clean co2 only costs me $3.50 in North Carolina.

    If they work, I should get 180+ powerlet refills off the $3.50 tank. It would cost me $95 to $100 to buy 180 new Crossmans. I can almost pay for my 5# tank, a set of guages and the first 5# of gas with that money. If they work and they're safe, I think most of my buddies would gladly pay a quarter for each refill. So $3.50 worth of bulk co2 would get me close to fifty bucks. If I do that a few times, I might be able to upgrade to a 50# tank. I'd like to start my own club. We could all enjoy virtually free co2, financing it right out-a-the dues. Around here, dry ice runs around 84-cents-a-pound. Medical grade liquid co2 is cheaper. The company I buy from furnishes bulk co2 to restaurants & medical facilities, so I feel good about it. What do the rest of you pay for dry ice around the country?

  69. Mike,
    I buy dry ice in Sioux Narrows Canada on the way home to keep my fish frozen for 48 hours. I don't know what it weighs but it's a brick about a foot square and 1 1/2 inches thick and it costs about $15. My guess is it weighs less then 5 lbs.


  70. B.B. Pelletier: Would you take $20 for the stuff you have pictured? I'm not trying to burn you. I think the guyz that charged you a buck-fifty already did that. I'd be tickled to buy it & try it out. Not with 3kpsi air, mind you, but with typical co2 vapor pressures at ambient temperatures.

    Contact me offline @ gageasebrkr on the google mailserver. Kind regards. I love this forum.

  71. Many thanks, BB. Understand perfectly. I would do the same, for archival purposes. Keep your eyes peeled, if you would please. I'd like to get my hands on one. BTW, what's the name of the British firm that made 'em. Although they are likely out-a-business, perhaps I can search using their name.

    Kind regards,

  72. Regarding what Vince said… But why not use the exact same setup – and fill with CO2 instead of air?

    My point exactly. That's what I wanna do. Have you ever seen a commercial offer for a system like BBP shared with us? Know the name of the vendor by chance?

    Still looking, Mike.

  73. Mike,

    The "company" that made these cartridges is a "company" in someone's mind, only. They have a million different enterprises going at any one time and it really is the owner of the company who defines them. Everybody in the airgun industry knows him by name and reputation.

    Contact me through blogger and I will tell you about it.


  74. Thanks, BB. I'm unsure how to make contact via blogger. But my email is the gageasebrkr (mentioned above) and of course, the last part is @gmail.com

    I will certainly be curious to read what you have to say.

  75. QUOTE…
    At February 22, 2010 7:11 AM, Blogger Vince said…

    Let's not forget all those juvenile and dangerous and fun uses of those empties – uh, then again, maybe we should.

    I suspect it's just as well that you didn't test that cartridge system. Regardless what the manufacturer told you – I don't care HOW small that hole is, when there's no flow through the gun (between shots) the pressure WILL equalize and everything up to the gun's valve will see a full 3000psig. As you point out, that's just waaaayyyyy too much of an increase over design limits to operate with confidence.

    But why not use the exact same setup – and fill with CO2 instead of air?

    Regarding Vince's question – why not use the cartridges and refill station with co2 instead of HPA? Anybody wanna take a stab at that?


  76. Mike,

    I'm just thinking out loud here. It would seem to me that B.B.'s concerns about the cartridge filling system having only one or two threads holding it together during the filling process would still be valid when filling with CO2. 900 psi would still push that cartridge with enough force to be dangerous should those threads give way.

    Having said that, if it held together then you probably could use it well as the guns in question would already be set up for using CO2. I wonder how many cartridges you'd have to fill from a bulk CO2 source in order to recoup the investment in the system. My guess is that it would take a many, many refills to break even and that most people would do better to just buy the CO2 cartridges in the big boxes.

    My two cents.

  77. Bobby Nations: I appreciate the 2-cents worth. It's a topic of great interest to me.

    I'd like to comment on pressure and the actual resulting forces for just a moment. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 15PSI. That's exactly what it means. One square inch has 15lbs of force on it, spread evenly across the entire square inch. If you divide it up into sixteen ¼"x¼" squares, each one has just under a pound of force due to pressure on it. 900PSI of pressure in a co2 container, pushing its way through the confines of an o-ring's inner diameter of say 4mm (consertively), which is about .019 square inches. If I were holding my thumb down on an open cartridge with an o-ring on it, I'd have to press my thumb down with about 17½ lbs of force to halt the flow. If there was 3000PSI compressed air in the cylinder, a little over 58lbs of force would be required – a bit over the weight (downward force) of a bushel of turnips.

    It's a common misconception that molecule size is directly related to the atomic weight of the matter. Untrue. The size of CO2 molecule is 3.23 Angstroms. Air consists mostly of nitrogen and oxygen. Both are larger than co2 molecules. O2 molecules measure 3.75 Angstroms and N2 is 4.00 Angstroms. To put this in perspective, the difference in size is about the same as between a 32-caliber and a 45-caliber bullet. How fast (or easily) a fluid or gas flows through a fixed size hole is more a function of viscosity than molecule size. James Clerk Maxwell published a famous paper in 1866 using the kinetic theory of gases to study gaseous viscosity. You cannot assume that viscosity of a gas is dependent on molecular size alone.

    I'm not sure how to attach photos with these replies. I have some that do a much better job of conveying information than my feeble comments.

  78. Mike,

    for us folks who comment on this blog, this is the only way to share photos. If you write a Blog, you can have photos published with it but that's the only way, to my knowledge.

    Fred PRoNJ

  79. Fred PRoNJ:
    I think you are correct. There seems to be no anonymous login to the pyramydair site. For example, the


    image was placed there through a secure login. Although internet users can look at it, there is no facility for allowing pic's to be posted. That's by design, of course.
    If PyramydAir administrators wanted public upload access, they would grant it.

    That is understandable. Images eat up a lot of disk-space.

  80. Mike,

    Simple HTML can be used, but not the <img> tag. So, no, there is no way to post a picture in a comment. I've never seen a blog that allowed that.

    Tom answered at least one of your questions in the post itself. The filling station is made from brass.


  81. Bobby Nations: You are right again. I saw the note in BB's post indicating the refill station was brass. I'll do some calc's a post my findings. Meanwhile, hit this site, scroll ALL THE WAY down to the bottom and look at the LINK I pasted in the TEST CODE. You can see it would be a piece-o-cake to allow hyperlinks…


    Copy the above link & paste it in your browser. The example you are looking for is near the very bottom and reads:


  82. Mike,

    It worked just fine. The anchor tag, <a>, is one of the simple HTML tags that is allowed in a comment.

    In the future, you can use the 'Preview' button when posting to test if something will work or not. I use it whenever I have a hyperlink (aka 'anchor') in a comment so that I can test the links themselves for fat-fingering and other glitches.

    I can't help you with the dimensions you've requested, and it will be some time before B.B. is back on his feet. I'm guessing you'll need to be patient and wait.

    BTW, what are you intending to do here? If you just want a refillable CO2 cartridge as a money saver, have you done the math to see how many cartridges you'd have to refill in order to break even? I'm curious to see how long that would take.


  83. Bobby Nations wrote: BTW, what are you intending to do here? If you just want a refillable CO2 cartridge as a money saver, have you done the math to see how many cartridges you'd have to refill in order to break even? I'm curious to see how long that would take.


    Thanks, Bobby, for the info. And yeah, I just realized the "Preview" button is the ticket. To answer your question, yep, I've done some thinking on the number of refills if a refillable cartridge cost $20, it would pay for itself after 45 refills. That's based on an assumption that 12g powerlets cost 50-cents each and your co2 in bulk costs 5-cents for each 12grams. After 45-refills, you're ahead of the game.

  84. Mike,

    I think that your numbers are a little off because B.B. stated that the refillable cartridge cost him $150 in the post. By my calculations, you wouldn't break even until the 334th refill. Depending upon the pistol/rifle in question, we'll assume 30 shots before the 12 gram cartridge gives out, so you would have to shoot 10,000 pellets to break even. Converting to a bulk-filled system on the gun itself makes more sense to me, and would be a lot more convenient.

    Of course, this is a moot point unless you know a source for the refillable cartridge system. Still, even moot points can be fun to think about!

  85. Mike,

    I'm not so sure that holding your thumb over the end of a punctured cartridge would be such a good idea as you would be holding a small rocket motor at that point. Youtube is full of folks puncturing them to "see what happens". As I said, 900 psi is not something to treat lightly.

    I'm just curious, but what CO2 gun would you use this refillable system with?


  86. Bobby,

    When someone utters the phrase "900 PSI", others within earshot of that person get all kinds of impressions as to just what that means. I know it's bound to disappoint some folks, but 900PSI simply doesn't mean anything until it's put into perspective.

    Let me put it into perspective. A nurse, giving you a H1N1 shot applies 2804PSI to your arm assuming the point of the needle is 1/1000 of an inch wide and she presses with only 1 gram of force. There are 453 grams in a pound. She probably pushes harder. The pressure may be as high as 6000PSI. A teaspoon of co2 at 900PSI in a small bottle is a toy. An 88-foot co2 tank on a railcar containing 900PSI co2 is a real concern.

    For nearly a century, modern day parents have been giving their 8-yr old boys co2 cartridges containing 900PSI of co2. I think one can safely assume that a co2 cartridge in a 8-yr old kid's pocket is far safer scenario than a careless adult with one fully charged in his loaded airgun.

    Having said that, take a look at these…

  87. Bobby Nations – Sorry I didn't respond to your question as to which gun a refillable cartridge was intended for use in. No particular gun. BB said some guns had problems with some cartridges. I would expect anyone unhappy with a refillable cartridge to return it for a full refund. It may not work in some guns. Over time, maybe we could compile a list of problem guns.

    BTW, what happened to BB? I missed threads pertaining to it. What happened? Is he gonna be OK?

  88. Bobby – one more thing. I forgot to thank you for telling me about the anchor tag and for the fine example. I didn't know about it. I was able to cut 'n paste your code, modifying it to work.

    Appreciate it a bunch!


  89. Well, Slinging Lead – am both glad and sorry you are experiencing problems ==> GLAD to know the problem isn't uniquely mine and SORRY that U R running into the error. At first, I thought maybe the available space for this particular topic was "full" or that it had somehow gone out of date.

    How these forums and blogs work is still a mystery to me.

  90. Hey – maybe they were having problems because they were updating their program. I see the layout is now different, with the "Leave Your Comment" section at the top now instead of way at the bottom.


  91. Mike

    Blogger must really be having issues, if your comment window was at the top, mine's still at the bottom.

    BTW, you really should post this stuff (your videos) on the current blog.


    Not so many people check out the older blogs, and you will get alot more feedback on your videos from more people.

    There are a weeks worth of blogs on that page, so scroll down carefully to the bottom of the first article to post your comment.

    Don't worry about being off topic, as nobody cares.

    Incidentally, BB was hospitalized with a horrible case of pancreatitis and his gall bladder acted up again. He is doing much better now, is off sedation and the respirator. Edith has been giving daily updates on the daily blog I posted above.

  92. I am a 78 y.o. airgun newbie. Just bought a Umarex Walther lever action 94 with dual-cartridge CO2 power. My question: Can one replace only one of the two Co2 12g. cylinders leaving the other empty one in place? Will this reduce power ( I assume not) Will this reduce no. of shots? (I assume yes). Will this adversely affect the seals ????? Thanks for your time. Jack Murd, aka Marv

  93. Marv, you on an older Blog and only a few of us see these comments.

    You are correct, one cart will reduce number of shots and greater than 50%. Be sure to use Crosman Pelgunoil on the cartridge tips before inserting.

    Go to the Pyramyd website to get the oil and also to click on the latest blog of Aug 26, 2010

  94. Marv,

    Hi. Yes, you will get the same power and less than half the shots.

    You are at the high end of the airgunner's age, which averages somewhere between 45 and 65. But it's never too late to have fun.

    Welcome to this blog and please do come to the current one and post your comments.


  95. Mr. B.B.,
    I have a crosman model 111 pistol and i have a question about it. Do i NEED one of those big co2 refill tanks that originally came with the gun or ami able to use a co2 powerelt to fill the co2 chamber in my gun with co2?

  96. OK – suppose you wanted to refill your 12g Co2 cartridge and you were, say, creative. Lets suppose you had some dry ice sitting in your cooler keeping your cheap generic beer cold. Lets suppose you got a small tube you could use to chisel out a tiny cylinder of dry ice and suppose you accidentally dropped it into the opening of the 12g bottle. as the dry ice vaporizes you would have plenty of time to put it into your air gun and as it warmed it would increase the internal pressure to be able to shoot the gun. it wouldn't take much dry ice to do this I am sure. I wonder how much it would take…. maybe just a pinch? 800psi in a new "fresh" tube, dry ice gives off how much gas per gram???

  97. Mike,

    Time for a science lesson. Dry ice, which is solid carbon dioxide, sublimates (turns from solid directly into gas without becoming liquid) at low temperatures. Your idea is great, but it has already been done. Instead of filling a container with liquid CO2, they filled it with dry ice then sealed it and the stuff inside turned directly into CO2 gas.

    There was no savings in volume over liquid CO2, so the volume savings were not there.

    It does work and has been tried, but since handling dry ice is dangerous, no one does it.


  98. I do it all the time with larger tanks. There's a commercial gas supplier near me. On Friday, I get 15-20lbs of dry ice from them and fill 3KPSI tanks (5# to 20#). I get the co2 for free 'cuz it'll sublime on 'em over the weekend anyway – it ain't gonna get sold. So they give it 2 me. No matter how fast I put it in, I can only fill most tanks to about 80% capacity. The DI sublimes at a rate faster than I can drop the pellets into the hole. When U get ready 2 put your main valve back on, just open it so no pressure builds while you're wrenching it on. I stick mine in the bathtub, covering the bottle with cold water to shorten the time it takes the contents to liquify. It gives me an opportunity to check for leaks too. Note: Don't worry about small leak while awaiting the DI to melt and reach temp at which you can easily handle the tank. Once it does, you can torque your valve down 'til the leak stops. The main valve seal is a wee bit more brittle at a hundred-below. So just wait 'til you can handle your tank to tighten things up 'n fix the leak.

  99. I recently picked up an early Crosman Pellgun with what I thought was a small box of vintage 8g co2 cartridges. In the spirit of refillable cartridges I thought it was interesting that the age of these cylinders, that these might be an early attempt.
    However to my dismay, these ended up being a handy minnow airation device. I found an old ad in Popular Science from 1949 that further explains the Min-O-Saver product, which is actually a great idea…

Leave a Comment

Buy With Confidence

  • Free Shipping

    Get FREE shipping on qualifying orders! Any order $150+ with a shipping address in the contiguous US will receive the option for free ground shipping on items sold & shipped by Pyramyd AIR during checkout. Certain restrictions apply.

    Free shipping may not be combined with a coupon unless stated otherwise.

    View Shipping Info

  • Shipping Time Frame

    We work hard to get all orders placed by 12 pm EST out the door within 24 hours on weekdays because we know how excited you are to receive your order. Weekends and holiday shipping times will vary.

    During busy holidays, we step our efforts to ship all orders as fast as possible, but you may experience an additional 1-2 day delay before your order ships. This may also happen if you change your order during processing.

    View Shipping Times

  • Shipping Restrictions

    It's important to know that due to state and local laws, there are certain restrictions for various products. It's up to you to research and comply with the laws in your state, county, and city. If you live in a state or city where air guns are treated as firearms you may be able to take advantage of our FFL special program.

    U.S. federal law requires that all airsoft guns are sold with a 1/4-inch blaze orange muzzle or an orange flash hider to avoid the guns being mistaken for firearms.

    View Shipping Restrictions

  • Expert Service and Repair

    Get the most out of your equipment when you work with the expert technicians at Pyramyd AIR. With over 25 years of combined experience, we offer a range of comprehensive in-house services tailored to kickstart your next adventure.

    If you're picking up a new air gun, our team can test and tune the equipment before it leaves the warehouse. We can even set up an optic or other equipment so you can get out shooting without the hassle. For bowhunters, our certified master bow technicians provide services such as assembly, optics zeroing, and full equipment setup, which can maximize the potential of your purchase.

    By leveraging our expertise and precision, we ensure that your equipment is finely tuned to meet your specific needs and get you ready for your outdoor pursuits. So look out for our services when shopping for something new, and let our experts help you get the most from your outdoor adventures.

    View Service Info

  • Warranty Info

    Shop and purchase with confidence knowing that all of our air guns (except airsoft) are protected by a minimum 1-year manufacturer's warranty from the date of purchase unless otherwise noted on the product page.

    A warranty is provided by each manufacturer to ensure that your product is free of defect in both materials and workmanship.

    View Warranty Details

  • Exchanges / Refunds

    Didn't get what you wanted or have a problem? We understand that sometimes things aren't right and our team is serious about resolving these issues quickly. We can often help you fix small to medium issues over the phone or email.

    If you need to return an item please read our return policy.

    Learn About Returns

Get FREE shipping on qualifying orders! Any order $150+ with a shipping address in the contiguous US will receive the option for free ground shipping on items sold & shipped by Pyramyd AIR during checkout. Certain restrictions apply.

Free shipping may not be combined with a coupon unless stated otherwise.

View Shipping Info

Text JOIN to 91256 and get $10 OFF Your Next $50+ Order!

* By providing your number above, you agree to receive recurring autodialed marketing text msgs (e.g. cart reminders) to the mobile number used at opt-in from Pyramyd AIR on 91256. Reply with birthday MM/DD/YYYY to verify legal age of 18+ in order to receive texts. Consent is not a condition of purchase. Msg frequency may vary. Msg & data rates may apply. Reply HELP for help and STOP to cancel. See Terms and Conditions & Privacy Policy.