A tale of two Red Ryders – Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on B.B./Tom: Tom is walking around the hospital halls several times a day (using a walker). The doctor said he seems to be recovering faster than expected. Today, Tom’s moving to a different floor…where patients go when they need less nursing care. Good news!

Today, we have a guest blog from BG_Farmer. It’s a two-parter, and you’ll see the rest of it on Monday.

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email us.

Bloggers must be proficient in the simple html that Blogger software uses, know how to take clear photos and size them for the internet (if their post requires them), and they must use proper English. We’ll edit each submission, but we won’t work on any submission that contains gross misspellings and/or grammatical errors.

Now, on to today’s blog.

by BG_Farmer

Introduction
After digging my old Red Ryder out of the basement at my parents’ house and finding that it had been left cocked (no doubt by a younger brother or nephew) for perhaps years, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it functioned just fine with a little oil in the “oil here” hole. My wife and son both enjoyed shooting it, but I feared that it was on borrowed time for active duty, so a new model Red Ryder 1938B was purchased in 2007. Though they are unmistakably both Red Ryders, I thought it would be interesting to examine the changes made between the two models and see how the newest version compares to my childhood classic. I hope this will be useful to fans of the Red Ryder, as I was able to find little information of this type when I researched it.


Yesterday and today…a vintage Red Ryder (top) and the current model.

The two guns pictured above are both examples of the post-1972 revival of the classic Red Ryder BB gun. My personal Red Ryder, a model 1938 carbine from approximately 1977-8, is the one on top. The new 1938B is on the bottom. B.B. covered a predecessor (No. 111 Model 40) of the no. 1938 bought in 1972 in some detail here (part 1) and here (parts 2 and 3).

Cosmetic comparisons
The picture below shows the model identifications. The metal on the 1938 is rusted where many grimy fingers wore off the paint and younger siblings neglected to oil it.


The top image shows what happens when you don’t wipe off fingerprints after handling a gun or don’t properly store it…rust!

I date my gun to 1977 or 1978 due to the placement of the lariat logo on the right side of the gun. Previous years of the revived 1938 apparently have the logo on the left side, just as the model they copied did. The lack of a safety, which would make it a 1979 or later model 1938A, helps date it fairly accurately. The 1938A (not shown) and 1938B differ mainly in regard to the safety construction, if my understanding is correct.

While the two guns are remarkably similar at first glance, there are many differences on close inspection. First, the wood is finished differently. The 1938 has a lighter stain and clear finish, with much nicer grain, while the 1938B has a darker, reddish, almost opaque finish. The newer gun also has a more angular and simplified shaping, with not as many rounded edges. My 1938B also differs in finish from the one pictured on the Pyramyd Air website, so there is obviously a great deal of variance.


Note the safety sticker on the vintage 1938 model…still legible after 30-something years!

On the right side of the stock, the famous lariat logo is similar, but not identical. The guns vary subtly, with the most significant difference I can detect being that the lariat itself is both wider and coarser on the 1938B.


The vintage gun’s lariat and logo appear crisper and thinner than the current model (right).

There are also significant differences in the metal finish. The older gun seems to have been painted with enamel, whereas the 1938B appears to be powder-coated. Whatever it is, the newer gun’s metal finish is much nicer than I ever remember the old one being. The placement and finish of the barrel bands differ. The old 1938 has a bare steel band, while the new gun has a painted band placed relatively further back on the forestock. The forestock on the 1938B is also thinner at the front and more sharply tapered than that on the 1938.


A steel band on the vintage gun is placed further forward on the forestock than the current gun’s band, which is painted.


There are also significant substitutions of plastic in the newer gun, including plastic in the muzzle “plug.”

It is also evident that styling was changed to adapt to suit more sophisticated children, as the muzzle of the 1938B looks quite a bit more realistic than the old 1938.


The rear sights differ markedly, with the 1938 having an all-metal rear sight with an adjustment screw and the 1938B having a metal leaf with plastic ramp.


The front sights differ in both design and material. The 1938 front sight is a blade formed from a metal band wrapped around the barrel and feed tube, while the 1938B’s front sight is a molded plastic blade and ramp that’s secured to the barrel with a screw.


Almost as important as the logo to a Red Ryder is the saddle ring and attached leather thong, but my vintage gun is thong-less.

Unfortunately, my 1938 has lost the saddle ring and leather thong due most likely to my youngest brother being left-handed (the thong would be in the way of the trigger hand), though he denies any knowledge of the loss. The newer 1938B saddle ring and thong are installed with a plastic ring oriented vertically, linked to a metal ring holding the thong, whereas the old one had a metal ring oriented horizontally in the receiver and another externally holding the thong. I can only guess that the change was to accommodate some internal revisions, possibly related to adding the safety.


Both guns have the “oil here” hole for lubricating the internals.

Stay tuned for part 2 next Monday.

59 thoughts on “A tale of two Red Ryders – Part 1


  1. Bg Farmer,
    Very nice. But how can I wait all the way until Monday for part two? Guessing the new guns lever and trigger are plastic also? Did you weigh them by chance? I found that a 1970โ€™s era Daisy 881 was a full 2 lbs heavier than its new counterpart.


  2. Edith,

    Fantastic news on Tom! Thank you!

    BG_Farmer,

    Very informative comparison. Do you think they maybe changed the orientation of the saddle ring so the thong would more naturally lie flat? The 1938 looks dented where the saddle ring was originally. Is it possible the thong ring dimpled the metal over time, as the gun’s weight rested on it? Or maybe your brother used the receiver as leverage to pry the thing off. ๐Ÿ™‚

    – Orin


    • Orin,
      I don’t know the exact reasons for changing the saddle ring, but the 1938 copied the older design released in, yes, 1938, so there must have been a compelling reason to change it. The new way may actually be better, because it encourages the second ring and the thong to hang down straight.


  3. RikiB,

    This is probably a bit premature, as you haven’t posted on today’s blog yet, but I wanted to ask you something before I forgot.

    In Volvo’s humorous attempt to recreate the old blog format, I know you were taken back by his efforts to redirect grievances to a different location. Wow, when you say it like that, it sounds more like an act of charity. ๐Ÿ™‚ Anyway, I wanted to ask if you had visited his blog, North American Airguns, yet. He’s already posted a number of very informative articles that are quite a refreshing complement to the indispensable collection that Tom and Edith cultivate here.

    If you haven’t already, I highly encourage you to add North American Airguns to your daily read.

    Volvo โ€“ that check you sent bouncedโ€ฆ can you please make the next installment a money order? ๐Ÿ™‚

    – Orin


  4. Matt_61 – RE: Martial Arts,

    I know that asking you to suggest a fighting style is probably equivalent to asking B.B. for a gun recommendation without providing any background info, but I wanted to probe you further (or anyone else that wants to chime in).

    I saw my immediate family learn to talk Korean, walk Korean, and travel to… guess where, as part of the Tae Kwan Do compulsory training/education that they were involved in. I can understand the desire an instructor might have for his pupils to completely integrate themselves into the associated culture, and on some level, maybe it’s even necessary. But I am really proud of my Western roots, and I don’t particularly want that caveat to be a provision of the experience, unless I choose to make it so down the road. That probably comes across as shallow and closed-minded, but I can’t help it.

    With that in mind, can you possibly steer me in any given direction? To be quite honest, I have done absolutely no homework on any particular style. I guess I’m looking to cheat (but just a little) off of your paper.

    – Orin


    • I know you are not asking me but have you ever considered this:
      http://www.ten-no-kishi.com/aifaa.htm
      It is a form of Native American fighting combined with Martial Arts:
      American Indian Fighting Arts Association
      Home of Chulukua-Ryu
      The first original American martial arts system
      accredited by the International Society of Black Belts.

      rikib


      • Thanks, RikiB. That is quite fascinating. Unfortunately, I can’t find a dojo for Ten-No-Kishi anywhere other than Scottsdale, AZ, which is like 6 hours away. Their web page is very informative, though, and prompted me to look deeper into Jiu Jitsu.

        I did some digging around on Google Maps and found more possibilities than I had expected within 10 miles, from mixed martial arts to others highly specialized. I guess that’s the advantage to living in a largish city.

        – Orin


  5. Good Morning BG_Farmer,

    Thank you sir for taking your time to educate and intertain us with your, as always, well written blog. The older stock with its suttle curves and tapers looks more pleasing to my eyes. Do they translate to a more lively feeling when you hold her in your arms as you squeeze off a shot?

    Mr B.


    • Mr. B,
      I’m going to talk about that a little in part 2. For now, I will say that putting the old one up to my shoulder and shooting it for the first time in over 2 decades felt as natural as if I had shot it only the day before. I can still shoot it better, although the only reason must be in my mind:).


  6. BG_Farmer,

    A very interesting blog. Can’t wait for Part 2. Since we’re on bb guns I’ll venture to share my first impressions on the new Daisy Model 25 Pump bb gun.

    My son’s 8th birthday finally rolled around and the long-anticipated moment to unwrap “the gift of the century” finally happened. He had already guessed from numerous hints over the months that something like this was in the offing, so the gun came as no surprise. The box is nice, brightly colored and nicely illustrated. I made him open the other package– bb’s, shooting glasses and a tool belt with his first screwdriver (so he’ll finally stop taking mine.)

    Next, the ceremony: With his right hand in the air and left hand over his heart I made him repeat the following pledge: “I promise I will never point the gun at anybody. I will always wear the glasses when I shoot. I will never shoot the gun inside the house.”

    I thought of adding other conditions like “I won’t shoot into our neighbor’s yard, or through the fence at the golf carts, or at Edith Gaylord’s cats” but thought better of it. To my amazement, the gun went unopened in the box and after a bit he went back to his Wii game. I was flummoxed. Later in the afternoon I asked him if he didn’t like his presents.

    “Yes I did.”
    “I’m surprised you didn’t even open the box and look at your gun.”
    “I thought you didn’t want me to touch it.”
    “Of course I do! All you have to do is follow the rules. Remember, ‘never point the gun at anybody‘ means not at yourself either. Never look into the muzzle, okay?”
    “Yes dad.”

    Anyway, this was several days ago and to this day he has not yet looked at his gun, and it sits in my closet. I mean, what kid doesn’t like a bb gun??? Maybe I freaked him out or he resents all the shooting I do with my airguns. I need to figure that out…

    Meanwhile, I have unpacked it and found very good instructions inside and nice packaging. Then I tried to cock it and BIG SURPRISE, I couldn’t pull the pump handle back! I did not expect that. I thought maybe something was bent and it wasn’t letting the cocking linkages fold down, kind of like when you lock your knees. But no, I just had to pull VERY hard! Way too hard for an 8-year-old kid! First thing I did is Pellgun oil the “oil here” hole and every joint I could think of. I checked the stock screws and found them tight.

    I wonder if I can entice my son to shoot the darned thing and how well it (and he) will shoot. At this point, I can’t wait for the Marlin Cowboy which I ordered in January and which Pyramyd still forecasts for June. I hope like heck that that gun will be easier to cock than the Daisy 25, and then he and I can pepper away and see who’s got the bestest and the mostest.

    -AlanL


    • AlanL,
      That sound disappointing.

      Give it time and work with him. Children these days are taught so many negative and often false things about guns, that he may actually be afraid of it. By the time I was given this one, I had shot many other guns under supervision and was deemed responsible to use it as I saw fit. It sat in my room, behind the door, and was probably shot every day (pending BB availability) for several years by me, then became the “starter/floater” gun for several of my 4 younger brothers after I left home.

      You might also want to try a Red Ryder. One of my nephews was given a Crosman 760 because his father deemed it a better BB gun than the Red Ryder. To this day, he still tells me that he would have preferred one like mine:). Ironically, many years ago, I had hoped for a 760 instead, but things worked out, anyway:).


    • AlanL,
      He will come around just be patient. Just my two cents… when he does, shoot big bolloons at close range, seems most kids like them. Don’t make it a job and have some fun and it doesn’t hurt to have a snack as part of a shooting session.
      Caveman


  7. A few of things from yesterday:

    rikib – ref the accuracy of your 2240 – I’ve got a 717, which is only about 300 fps. The pellet makes a big difference. For soda cans, it is deadly accurate at 10 yards with a wadcutter. At 20 yards, it does much better with a pointed or rounded pellet. My longest shots are about 25 yards (based on available space, not the 717).

    C – looking for an entry-level air gun – I’ve read a lot of good things about the Daisy 953 on this blog. It’s about the same price, and there’s no CO2 to buy.

    Target Paper – thanks for the idea of using construction paper. I use card stock. It’s sturdy, but it tears easily.

    Herb – I’m with you. It’s the pellets’ fault. (That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.)



  8. BB – “Run Forrest Run!!!!!”

    Might have to go shoot my RR in the basement today. It’s raining outside.

    I took my saddle ring and thong off my RR. (Saved them of course.) I also change a bolt around on the receiver so it wouldn’t rub on my hand.


  9. Alan, I feel for you. My boys got their Red Ryders when they each turned 6. They are not 8 and 9. This weekend they will receive their ‘summer presents’ (sort of grad presents for doing well in school).
    When the boys got their guns we had no video games, other than a few PC based games in the house.
    I’m against them to tell the truth…not in principle but because it is so easy to become addicted to them (tell me about it…I can easily spend hours playing ‘Call to Duty’).
    Anyhow, this year we finally gaved and got them Nintendo’s for Christmas…with all their friends having them it was lost battle. I quickly noticed that a pattern started (and I only bring this up because you mention the Wii):

    Me: “Hey boys, lets do out this afternoon and go shooting”
    Oldest: “Dad, I just want to play on the DS”

    For a while I let this slide until I realized that he was on his way to couch-potatodom…so.

    Replay the above:
    Me: “You can play on the DS after you’ve spent an hour doing something active”
    Olderst: “Awww…dad…sigh”
    Me (an hour later at our shooting spot): “Okay boys, it’s time to pack up and go home”
    Oldest: “Gee, dad, do we have to go…we’re having fun!!”

    Sometimes you need to do what’s best for them. Give it a try Alan, it may work. Tell your son that he can play on the Wii after you do a bit of shooting…I’ll bet you won’t be able to pry the Daisy out of his hands once he tries it.
    Good luck!


    • cbs dad & Alan in MI,

      That’s exactly what I was planning for this weekend. Very often once kids are actually doing something different, they enjoy it. One thing my son absolutely loves is Laser Tag, so he does like to shoot. Man do I get a workout when we go do that. I can recommend it- great fun. Not enough laser tag places around though. Great business opportunity for someone with energy and a little $$ to invest.

      -AlanL


    • CSD,

      I had the same rule regarding video games for my two children and it worked wonders for years. Then two Christmases ago, my Mom (bless her heart) got the oldest a Nintendo DS. Since that day, we’ve been fighting a running battle with that contraption. Were it up to him, he’d never turn it off. I do occasionally just kick him out of the house and tell him not to come back inside until the street lights come on. Or, I’ll turn off the computer, TV, and Nintendo and force him to make his own fun. He complains, of course, but then gets on with playing in the great outdoors or with his copious toys and generally loses himself in the experience. I still want to kick my Mom on occasion for doing it. Luckily, my daughter could care less for the stupid things. She actually likes shooting with her Dad more than most anything else ๐Ÿ™‚


    • CSD,

      Spot on! Better yet, give them their choice of how to spend 60 minutes of outdoor activities: wash the truck, pick up horse manure, shoot the Daisy, or dig a trench.

      Empower them to make a decision and then watch as they fight over who gets to shoot first. ๐Ÿ™‚

      – Orin


  10. Does anyone know it this system allows editing? I would have liked to add that the boys ‘summer presents’ were the BAM AK look-a-like pellet rifles.


  11. AlanL – CSD’s advice is great, but don’t make it that you want him to shoot. Make it clear that he has to do something active and that doesn’t use electricity, it is his choice. It could be a bike ride or sports, but I bet that the BB gun will be calling in short order.

    Alan in MI


  12. BB and Edith:
    Getting BB to chase nurses around for a bit of extra care is probably part of the treatment:)

    BG Farmer:
    I loved the article and the photos are great.
    As far as I know the Red Ryder was not available to us kids in the UK.
    I do remember though adverts in the imported DC comics for Daisy repeating BB rifles though.
    We couldn’t get them either.
    Damn my luck being born in the UK:(

    Orin:
    If you want to learn an authentic western fighting style,come to Britain on a Saturday night.
    10 pints of Lager followed by a greasy kebab and you will fight anyone.
    I don’t think Bruce Lee ever came to Britain.
    A very wise man:)
    Check out a bare knuckle boxer called Lenny McLean.
    He had a bit part in the film ‘Lock,stock and two smoking barrels’ as the main enforcer for the Boss.
    In real life he was much much worse.

    AlanL:
    You know my 11 year old nephews are not interested in anything me and my brother loved as kids.
    What is there not to love about shooting and blowing things up?
    How can looking at a pursuit on a video screen be better than actually doing it I will never know.
    DaveUK



      • BG Farmer:
        In terms of BB guns it would be the ‘Gat’ pistols I reckon,But no one real contender in the national pysche to be honest.
        Firing guns of any sort was just not thought about,one way or another by most folk here.
        ‘Action men'(Gi Joe’s) and ‘Raleigh Chopper’ bicycles are what touch the nostalgic nerve of guys in the UK.
        I am just glad my old Dad bought an Air rifle back then though.
        I would look bloody silly still riding a ‘Chopper’ at my age:)
        DaveUK


        • Dave,
          I looked up the “Raleigh Chopper”, because the brand rang a bell. I didn’t have the chopper, but something very similar in design. Must explain the popularity of motorcycle shows over the past few years:).


          • BG Farmer:

            I think you are right’American Chopper’ is a very popular show over here as well.
            They re-released the ‘Raleigh Chopper’ a little while back but it was not the same:(
            Gone was the long saddle that two or three mates could share at the same time and so was the suicide gear shift located in the middle of the crossbar that you used to catch your meat and two veg on in a crash:)
            DaveUK


            • We couldn’t afford the real “chopper” so we would take a “banana seat” bend the brackets to lower it. Then we would find a junk bicycle and cut the forks off and hammer them onto our existing forks to elongate them (not safe mind you) we looked “cool” as long as everything stayed together.

              rikib


  13. BG_Farmer

    Excellent blog BG, I am looking forward to part 2.

    Your southpaw little brother is obviously lying through his teeth. Oh wait… maybe he ‘tripped’ and then the thong spontaneously ‘fell off’. He probably has his keys attached to it to this very day for a sense of smug satisfaction. I love my brothers, but if I still had everything that they ever stole, broke, or killed, I would be a millionaire.

    I know it is not historically accurate save for some special editions, but I really think they should add the compass and the sundial to the RR. How in the heck are you supposed to know when to come home for supper, or which direction to head after a day of huntin’ with ole blue?


  14. Hi BG, Nice job, very nicely done. So I grew up with a late ’50s, early ’60s RR. Recently I bought a new one at K-Mart for around $32. Great price. What confuses me however is that the new one doesn’t always feed a BB without some help (ie. turning the gun upside down and back or pushing with my fingernail on the exposed BB in the tiny little slot on the top of the barrel). I don’t remember any failure to feed problems with my original. What changed?


    • JoeB.,
      I will discuss that briefly in part 2, but I will say that it is not just you:). Ironically, I think the new one works fine according to the instructions both for it and the old gun, but the old gun was, and still is, more forgiving.


      • I agree. About it working fine when the instructions are followed. But I’m an old fart now and I don’t much care for why Daisy had to go and change things when they worked just fine the old way. I’m still wondering what changed internally in the design.


        • …or perhaps I’m too old to remember that my old RR failed to feed too. Any other old farts out there remember how reliably their RRs fed BBs without having to lower then raise the barrel?


        • Joe B,
          The old one feeds pretty much regardless of how you hold it when cocking, although I remember reading the instructions to do it some certain way. You must follow those instructions for the new one, though. No idea what was changed or why — it may even be something unintentional like tighter tolerances in the new one. For me and you, it is a bit of a problem, but I can’t really complain that the new gun works according to the manual’s instructions:).


  15. Edith…
    Good to hear that Tom is doing much better. He needs some good home cooked meals and junk food to get him back into shape.

    BG_Farmer……
    Thanks for the good topic on Red Ryders. That’s what I wanted for my first BB gun, but got a Daisy 25 instead. A bit dissapointed at first. Must have been the old western movies.

    AlanL…
    A man who can break a D54 in ways formery thought impossible can’t cock a BB gun?? This does not compute.
    Maybe your boy is not interested because of the rules. In video games there are no rules. The more killing and destruction you can perform, the higher your score.
    I lived on a farm in my younger years. Not much on TV, no place to go and hang around with other kids, no video games. All the farm kids had BB guns. About the only rule was to not shoot up the buildings. Most of us liked hunting for anything. Anyone absent from school on the first day of rabbit season had better have at least 5 doctors to back them up when they got yanked into the superintendent’s office.

    twotalon


    • TwoTalon,

      Man you bring back memories. The youth you describe growing up is infinitely superior to the couchpotato existence behind triple-locked doors that us urbanites condemn our children to now. I too grew up in a virtually lawless environment outdoors, and wish I could give my kids that. But if wishes were horses I’d own the Kentucky Derby and then some.

      I’ve got to come up with a good way to measure the cocking effort on that 25. I’m thinking of clamping the pump grip in a vise and pushing on the butt of the gun with my bathroom scale. I’ll try to videotape that with my daughter’s flip and post it on Flip video sharing site this weekend, if I can accomplish it.

      -AlanL


      • Please reconsiderr your method for measuring cocking force. I can see a crushed cocking handle as a result.

        Set the butt down against the scales and push the cocking handle straight down. Nothing should get broken that way, unless the butt slips off the scales.

        twotalon


        • twotalon,

          Okay, will try your way first. My bathroom scale is a “fancy” one with a thick glass plate that you stand on. That caused me grief when I tried to measure cocking effort with my 350 and the barrel slipped off and hit the tile floor full force. Of course, idiots only learn one way: the hard way. But I got the solution: I will first lay down a thin sheet of latex (my daughter’s swim cap) and try it that way.

          ๐Ÿ™‚
          AlanL


    • TwoTalon,
      I believe that at the time I wanted a Crosman 760, but my dad (who grew up in the 30’s and 40’s) was a Western fanatic. I wouldn’t trade it now, though:).


      • BG,

        I think the reason the Red Ryder design is changed in the muzzle is due to safety considerations. The original design, as used on your older gun, was called the “lightning loader”. In order to load the gun, it required holding the gun muzzle up when pouring in the shot. This resulted in the bore of the gun being pointed at the user’s face.

        I had one of these when I was a kid, too. Never gave the fact that the gun was pointed at my head when loading a second thought. But I bet the lawyers did.

        I bought a Crosman 760 for my grandson to use after he masters his RR. Boy, was that thing ever hard to pump! The forestock, which is the pumping handle, is so short it doesn’t develop much leverage. After a lot of use, it finally eased up some. My Daisy 856, which is more of an “adult gun”, pumps the same way, but is easier to pump.

        Thanks for choosing this subject. Looking forward to Part II.

        Les


        • Les,
          Loading is covered in Part 2(my submission was too long, so it was broken into 2 parts). I don’t think I’ve ever heard it called the โ€œlightning loaderโ€ , but that makes sense. We’ve lost a lot to greedy litigation since our day — some (more) of that is covered in part 2 as well:).


  16. Herb you wrote: “The difference in group size between a score of 86 and 89 is minuscule.”

    I agree this seems minuscule to a plinker, a can shooter, however, in competition it is not so minuscule. It’s the difference between 1st place and no place, a ride to the finals or a ride home. But, I agree with you that my scores on this test alone are chance results. That’s why I intend to shoot some more, but I’m not sure now how I can make my results more meaningful. I’m not sure now how we can test BB’s blog post about sorting. What would be meaningful, ten groups of ten shots, or a hundred? Is it impossible for me to do a sorting test of this nature to prove anything that would satisfy a doubter? If my results are not credible I’m wasting my time (however, I’d still be having fun and working toward being a better shot and that’s what’s really important)


    • Chuck,

      I think I understand what you’re saying about scores.

      It isn’t about “group size” per sey, but fliers. The real question is how many fliers per 100 (or N) pellets.

      Herb


  17. I guess I’m out of the sorting test then. I don’t have the room for 20yds. I’ll just apply logic and consider sorted pellets at 10m to always be more accurate than unsorted ones. Can’t hurt, you know?



  18. bristolview…the Red Ryder is said to have ‘minute of popcan’ accuracy at 20 feet. At 20ft you can consistently hit a Daisy Shatterblast (about 2″ diameter) I’d say 3 out of 5 trys. At 10 meter I wouldn’t I’d say 3″ to 4″ groups would be normal.


  19. OK – first report on sorting pellets and measuring. First, I used RWS Superpoints in .22 cal. They weigh in at 14.4 gr even though the tin says 14.5. I used these because I have a lot of them, no other reason. The rifle was my RWS 46, an underlever rifle which, in the past, has shot these pellets at 643 fps ofr 13 ft.lbs of energy. My range is only 28′. In sorting the pellets, I found they ranged from 14.1 to 14.7 gr. I finally got 10 14.4 gr pellets. Next, I picked 10 pellets at random and oriented them by means of a faint die seam, marking it with a sharpie. For the test, I first fired 5 Superpoints through the rifle to season or foul the barrel then commence the test.

    The unsorted, un-oriented pellets produced a single hole of .52 inches at the widest dimension. Since these pellets measure .215″, that would give me a center to center hole of .305″. The sorted pellets gave me a single hole of .495″ or .28″ center to center. Finally, the oriented pellets were not too successful due to paper tearing, I had put scotch tape across the first two targets but not the third. Anyway, that hole was .561″ or .346″ center to center, as near as I can figure.

    Really, I need to redo this test with at least 25 yards between the rifle and target but won’t be able to until the weekend after next.

    Fred PRoNJ


  20. TwoTalon,

    Part 2 of my update on the new Daisy Model 25 bb gun:

    I did the cocking effort measurement. Result: 25 lbs! Way way too much. My boy tried it every which way. No dice. After a while, my fingers hurt from gripping the pump handle and pulling back. The grooves in the wood are not kind. Callouses in the making for sure.

    Loading the shot tube is a gigantic pain in the keester. The spring loaded slide jumps out of its holding detent for a nothing and snaps smartly on your fingers. You pretty much have to hold it. Feeding the fifty bb’s into the little feed hole is a bear. You will feed fifty onto the floor just as easily. The pull is still too long for an eight-year-old.

    Now for the good: The gun is accurate accurate accurate! I consistently hit a 2-inch target from 10 yards without trying hard. Then I consistently hit a Crosman CO2 Powerlet cartridge standing upright from 15 yards away three times in a row, with no sight adjustments- just as it came out of the box.

    I don’t have a Chrony, but the steel bb’s penetrated their own depth into the trunk of a hard palm tree and went through a sturdy (but empty) plastic 3 oz shampoo bottle (TSA approved traveller’s size) from 10 yards.

    Steel bb’s love to ricochet off of many surfaces: shooting glasses are a must.

    Conclusion: Maybe the cocking effort on my gun is a fluke, but if they’re all that way then the new Model 25 is NOT for kids 10 and under, unless they are built like Arnold Schwarzenneger.

    Thanks to BG_Farmer’s blog I will try the Red Ryder next, though I had stayed away from it because I didn’t like its looks. BG– can you tell us about the cocking effort on your guns?

    Can’t wait for the Marlin Cowboy to finally make its appearance.

    -AlanL

    There is


    • AlanL,
      The cocking effort should be manageable to an 8 yo, but I haven’t measured it. My son could just barely do it at 4-5 (though of course he insisted on doing it), but that had more to do with height and positioning than strength. The new one has a ratchet on the cocking lever, so they can work in shifts:)!


  21. best I can do with a RR about 1″ groups around 10 yards.

    I have to point the muzzle up when cocking it to load a BB. It only misfeeds when it’s almost empty, but not very often.


Leave a Reply