Beginning airgun design

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on Tom/B.B.: Walking, eating, moving around…all good things that continue to improve his health! Now, it’s just a matter of time til he’s robust enough to come home, as his body just needs to heal. We hope there are no more downturns!

B.B. wrote today’s blog.


The Quackenbush Lightning used rubber bands to power the piston.

I have another assignment for you! Create a simple spring airgun with the fewest number of parts. I’m guessing you can do it with 10 or less. Don’t worry about things like tightly fitted mainsprings. The Quackenbush Lightning used rubber bands to power its piston. They were outside the gun and hooked onto the piston, which traveled inside the compression chamber.

Muzzle loading will simplify things for you. No harm in stuffing the pellet from the front, and it saves a lot of design work.

I’m thinking about PVC-type parts, not cannibalized airguns. This should be something that can be made anywhere by MacGyver in the last 15 minutes of the show.

Here’s a tip: If you do decide to do the Quackenbush Lightning, instead of running the cocking wire through the side of the piston, run it top to bottom and somehow use the bottom part to connect with your trigger. Now, you have a sear as well as a piston. See the Mega Dart MX-7 airgun on page 67 of Airgun Digest, Second Edition.

If we get several designs that are truly exceptional, I wouldn’t mind testing them formally and showing everyone photos of them. So, if you’re proud of your gun, consider sending it to me for testing.

Simplifying design
To reduce parts count, make one part do many jobs. You probably don’t need a stock, so do without. No need for sights, so forget ’em. Your gun may do better shooting after it’s been oiled, so you can make that a part of the process.

What I’m looking for is how clever you guys can be. I hope to be surprised!

210 thoughts on “Beginning airgun design





    • Mr. B.,

      Called B.B. & here’s his reply:

      I’ve seen a lot of pneumatic designs, so that’s why I asked for a springer. However, if you want to do a pneumatic, that would be okay, too.

      Edith




  1. Oh, I get it now! You’re just like my parents…”Let’s give him something to do to keep him busy so he’ll stop bothering us with silly questions all weekend.”

    Ingenious!!! Diabolical, but ingenious.


    • Chuck,

      Ummm…that’s not what B.B. was thinking, but it sure sounds like it! Actually, his idea was to feature the homemade guns along with accuracy and velocity data on a future blog. I think that would make for a really interesting post.

      Regarding your other post about wanting a day off: If I had a day off, what in the world would I do with it? Sleep? Don’t be silly!

      Edith


      • Edith,

        Do you really want to come up with a lot of interesting (ie crazy) designs? Make this a real contest, $1000 prize to winner, guaranteed contract from Pyramyd to license and manufacture, 20% profits and a royalty on sales by PyramydAir!
        ;-D
        -AlanL
        PS: No, I’m not volunteering to put up the “Alan Prize” for air gun invention!



  2. Hi BB and Edith.
    Ok how is this for a fiendish design.
    It may not qualify though because is dosn’t use air pressure.
    I have done a rudementary test with what little I have and it shows promise.
    Virtualy no moving parts except the projectile and a very simple trigger.
    I present..The Magnet Gun!
    A barrel with a magnet fixed at one end and a small bore hole to poke through a matchstick trigger is the gun.
    Obviously the magnets you use will dictate the size of the pipe bore to a certain extent.
    The projectile has a magnet fixed to its base.
    Important that the magnet on the base of the projectile is faced at the same polarity as the magnet fixed in the barrel.
    Muzzle load the projectile as far as you can,pushing against the magnetic field generated by both magnets.
    Having already pre marked and drilled where this extreme point is,slip in the Matchstick trigger to take the strain.
    Point and pull out the trigger(matchstick).
    I reckon power will be dictated by what strength magnets you use.
    I am sure someone must have built something similar already but if they haven’t I am not suprised:)
    DaveUK



      • DaveUK,

        Since when is anything made of chocolate not useful? Even melted into a puddle, chocolate is delicious.

        Repeat after me: Chocolate is good. Chocolate is my friend πŸ™‚

        Edith



      • Edith:
        I love chocolate but you know that saying ‘A moment on the lips,a lifetime on the hips’:)
        Or belly in my case:(

        BG Farmer:
        Now you are talking.An electro magnet affair with a reverse polarity option.
        I have heard the US military are looking at Rail guns that will use superconductors
        to accelerate projectiles up a barrel through a series of magnetic rings.
        My concept is not unique in the respect of using magnets as a means of propulsion.
        Being short of superconductors and a Billion Dollars research grant I went for the cheap option:)


        • BG Farmer:
          This idea came to me thinking of using magnets in an air rifle.
          Instead of a spring or gas ram how about using the force of two compressed magnets of the same polarity to push the piston forward,or in the case of an electro magnet,pulling the piston forward?
          You may have already guessed that I have plenty of time on my hands:)
          DaveUK


          • Dave,
            I’ve always been fascinated by magnets; even though I’ve read all (and understood many of) the scientific explanations, they still seem like magic:). I think the problem would be that the force b/t the magnets is inversely proportional to the square of the distance b/t them (I’m guessing that’s the rule they follow), so just two magnets wouldn’t provide adequate force over enough distance. They could be stacked, though, like Belleville(?) washers. A solenoid driven piston would be great also, although there would be a similar problem, i.e., more than one unit (coil) would be needed to do the work over the distance a piston travels. That might actually work out for the best — electronically controlled power selection.


            • BG Farmer:
              The devil is always in the detail:)
              I too am fascinated by magnets and how they interact with each other.
              As you say ‘Magic’.
              I wish though I had studied at school and had a better understanding of such things.
              My heart is willing but my mind is weak:)
              DaveUK


            • BG_Farmer,

              My husband is also a magnet freak. His interests span a great many areas. I believe his love of magnetism stems from a childhood fascination that never left him. At Xmas time, he’s bound to get at least one magnet. Usually, they’re some strange configuration…extendible arms with small magnets, magnets on the ends of extensions that can bend around corners or even a powerful light attached to a tripod with strong magnets in place of feet. He liked the latter so much, that I bought one to give to my brother.

              Whenever we go to any store that has magnets…not the ones you put on refrigerators, as those are for amateurs :-)…we’re bound to buy at least one. In our house, there’s no such thing as too many magnets (or firearms or airguns or pellets or scopes or mounts or screwdrivers or Allen wrenches or drill bits or…fill in the blank).

              Edith


            • OK – nothing to do with airgus here: Anybody that loves magnets might want to consider getting a Sonicare powered toothbrush as a great source of magnets. The replaceable heads operate using two rare earth magnets that ossilate the head in an reversing magnetic field. When the head is worn out (roughly 3 months on average for me) you replace it, but before I toss the old head, I snap the two 2.5x5x10 magnets off it – they are epoxied on.

              I’ve had one for years, and now have probably 50 of these little gems. I use them for all sorts of things, such as popping one on and off the shaft of a screwdriver so the tool is magnetized and holds screws but is demagnetized when it is removed a few moments later. Great stuff.

              Alan in MI


              • Alan in MI,
                I’ll keep that in mind. I love “disposable” products that have “re-uses”. As kids, my friend and I used to take apart dry cell batteries, mainly for the carbon rods (we had a small carbon arc furnace) and the zinc (very handy). There was also the “gunk”, the name of which I’ve forgotten (manganate or something? I could look it up and appear smart or at least less senile:)); it could be used for something interesting as well.



        • For the standard dipole magnet, the fall-off with distance is probably closer to inverse cube than inverse square, so very fast. But heck, if you want to build a rail gun, it’s “not hard” conceptually:

          Take two busbars, square cross-section pieces of copper, about 2.54 cm (one inch) on edge, and maybe 2 meters long, spaced apart by some very heavy duty plastic insulation. Screw rails to plastic support structure with very heavy bolts, being sure to work from underneath.

          Now make the slide, which is a metal rod held to the rails in a kind of plastic frame; make sure that the metal rod can slide on the copper busbars smoothly and keeping in electrical contact. Clear the space in front of the rails. Put the slide at the back end. Pass a very large direct current into the two busbars, positive terminal to one rail; negative to the other rail. I’ll leave it as an exercise to the student which side is plus and which minus; it matters as that governs the direction the slide will shoot.

          You may want to charge up a mammoth capacitor and then discharge it rapidly into the rails in order to get enough current rising rapidly enough.

          Ready, aim, shoot. And be sure to stand back. I’ve seen railguns toss slugs at escape velocity! (they slow down rather rapidly in the air.)

          –pete


          • I was thinking more of something that is referred to now as a “coilgun”, either to fire a proper projectile directly or to drive the piston in place of the spring. Railgun sound good too:).


            • PZ and BG Farmer:
              I wish I had a well equipped workshop to try them things out.
              saying that though, with my record on health& safety issues it is probably best I can’t:)


              • Dave,
                Are you saying you are the British version of Tim “the Toolman” Taylor:)? Since we copied “The Office”, I wonder if the BBC copied “Home Improvement”; if not, sorry for the obscure reference, but I bet you would enjoy the show.


                • BG Farmer:
                  Oh yes I know ‘Tool time’from ‘Home Improvement’ a very funny show.
                  Me and the wife watch ‘8 simple rules’ ‘King of queens”Everybody loves Raymond”Family Guy’and ‘American Dad’as well.
                  I have to watch ‘The Sopranos’ on my own though because it is a bit close to the knuckle for my missus.: )
                  DaveUK



  3. Two homework assignments in one week. Hmmm. The tables have turned on us. I like the pellet weighing test since the subtle message is, “get off your butt and go out and shoot.”

    I haven’t touched a pcp in over a week. I’m having so much fun with the watts tuned R8. If anyone has a .177 caliber springer doing 650fps-700fps I would strongly encourage you to try the jsb RS pellets.

    kevin


  4. Edith,

    Any chance you can get PA to test and list the cocking effort for the Daisy Red Ryder, Model 10 and Model 25 bb guns, and for the Marlin Cowboy (once it’s in)?
    Also, on one page Daisy’s website lists the muzzle velocity for the Red Ryder at 280 fps. PA says 350. That’s HUGE difference. Did PA get that figure with steel, zinc, or plastic bb’s?

    Thanks,
    -AlanL



    • AlanL,

      Pyramyd Air’s tech department doesn’t have the time/manpower to test the cocking effort of most guns. Usually, the mfrs supply that info to us or B.B. supplies it when he tests a gun.

      I just clicked on all the Red Ryder guns on Daisy’s site, and all say 350 fps. The Model 105 Buck is stuck in the middle of the Red Ryder listings and has a max velocity of 275 fps. Did you happen to click on that one by mistake? I see none that are 280 fps, which is the velocity you claim Daisy shows. Please provide a link for the web page that says a Red Ryder shoots 280 fps.

      While I’m at it, I just looked at the Red Ryder owner’s manual, and it also shows the gun shoots 350 fps max velocity.

      Edith


      • Edith,
        I believe that 350fps is a generic limit that Daisy sets on “youth guns”. In my manual, the Buck and RR have a different (and equal) “maximum shooting distance” than the Timberwolf, which leads me to believe they are not 350fps, but somewhat slower. I would be willing to testify in court that I’ve seen 280fps specified, but I don’t have any idea where at this point. Not much help, I guess:).



        • AlanL,

          I have no idea why you’d hesitate to put up a link to a manufacturer of airguns. It’s never stopped anyone before, so I’m not sure why you’d hesitate to do so now.

          I’ve emailed Daisy about the velocity. I’ll let you know what they say.

          Thanks,
          Edith



  5. Well, when I get a day off, I go down to my airgun range and shoot. I guess you can’t do that since that would be working, now wouldn’t it? Ha! See what happens when take your fun things and make them your job?


    • This reminds me of a quote I posted a little while back from Bob Dylan, I can’t say it is a direct quote because I didn’t go look it up again.
      A successful person is one who can get up in the morning, go to bed at night and in between do what they enjoy most.
      Sounds like Edith & Tom are pretty successful to me πŸ™‚

      rikib



    • J,

      There’s no time limit on anything. Design it, let us know that you’ve got one you want B.B. to test, and we’ll arrange to contact you via email.

      Edith


  6. Ryan,
    I know what you mean. It’s like Christmas every time I get a shipment from PA. If the shipping costs weren’t so much I’d order a tin every two weeks. Hey, idea! Why doesn’t PA start a pellet subscription for $10/month where we can automatically get a tin of pellets every month with no added shipping cost. Kind of like Netflix except my request list would be a lot shorter. They could then keep a larger inventory because they would be guaranteed a sale and know exactly which pellets to stock.


    • I for one would like that idea. Shipping cost is truly an annoyance. I recently ordered:

      /s/a/Champion_Heavy_Duty_Metal_Trap/1026

      The standard shipping on it is like $35. So I added 4 tins of ammo and a silicone cloth, and got the total to $101.xx. I paid no shipping since its over $100, and I got the free tin of ammo. And considering what it will cost to ship its free ammo all in all. πŸ˜€ PA is the best!


  7. Continuing conversation from yesterdays Comments…
    BG_Farmer: “No idea what was changed or why β€” it may even be something unintentional like tighter tolerances in the new one.”

    I bet you’re right. My new Red Ryder feels like it’s much more powerful now. My old one was noticeably slower than my old model 25 (the 25 was a childhood birthday present and followed my RR by several years). The new RR feels more like I remember my 25’s velocity. [Reference: my Crosman M66: 1 pump felt like it gave me the velocity of my old RR; 3 pumps equalled my M25.]

    And B.B./Edith: make your own springer is a stunningly great idea! Thanks!


    • JoeB,
      My 1938 is shootable, but given its age and heavy use, its current power level is suspect. That said, the new one is harder hitting. I vaguely remember the number 210 on the box or in the manual (both lost to time) of the 1938: I wonder if that isn’t the velocity. If so, it is probably just slower than then the new one, at a nominal (and to me credible) 280 fps. 25’s were definitely more powerful guns, from what I’ve read.



    • Mike,

      I believe that you can use springs from ball point pens. Or, you can send $14 to Mike Tiehen, and he’ll send you a package with everything you need to do a 3-screw modification to your Discovery’s trigger. It includes a lighter trigger return spring.

      I did the 2-screw mod to my 1760SE trigger, which is the same as the Discovery trigger group, and it made for a very, very nice trigger. I don’t recall if I switched the trigger return spring for one from a cheap pen, but it’s possible that I did so. The screws, I picked up from Home Depot for about 50 cents. Best money I ever spent on that gun.


  8. My local sources that usually hunt for rare powder burners have just found for me a Daisy no.100 model 38 single shot rifle….the condition is impressive!Since the price was within 20$ of bluebook I gladly paid full asking price.Sometimes it is better to give that extra 20$ to be sure you are first in line!!!The model 38 is unique in that the stock is hinged and “breaks”90 deg. to cock and then you muzzle load a BB.Current velocity seems around 210? or thereabouts.Now to brainstorm on a homemade spring gun!


  9. RE: Fliers & BB’s weighing challenge

    Anybody have some thoughts on how to test for fliers?

    If you just select 10 pellets randomly from a tin, then the probability of not getting a “flier” in the 10 is dependent on the percentage of fliers. If only 5% were fliers then there is about a 60% chance that you wouldn’t get a flier in a given sample of 10 pellets.

    In order to have a 95% probability of getting at least one flier, then about 25% of the pellets would have to be fliers. (If 25% of the pellets in a tin are fliers, it seems that you need to be buying different pellets!)

    If you shoot badly enough then weighing won’t make any real difference. For those who can shoot one hole groups, then weighing would obviously make a more significant difference.

    (1) Maybe shoot with weighed pellets which are supposed to be good, and shoot with pellets that weigh “bad?” Measure X-Y deflection from aim point for each shot?

    this would be good for getting maximum information from shots, but a lot of measuring and math.

    (2) Make circle 1.5 times 10 shot group size below POI. (so you don’t shoot out POA.) Then count number of shots out of 50 that are outside the circle?

    Not much measuring or math, but less sensitive.

    Herb


    • Herb/Chuck,

      Herb – I think you touched on something that might work for Chuck. Chuck, since you only have 10 yards to shoot and your groups at that difference are so close together (or so it seems to us non 10-meter guys), would you be willing to try the following?

      Shoot two groups, both sorted by weight. In the first group, all pellets weigh the same. In the second group, pellets consist of an extreme spread, like the 5 heaviest and five lightest you can reasonably find, or maybe a variety that covers the entire spectrum from lightest to heaviest.

      While this wouldn’t exactly win any probability arguments on sorted vs. unsorted pellets, it could be more instrumental in demonstrating any advantage that tighter tolerances have over sloppier tolerances.

      – Orin


      • Orin:

        Fantastic point. Using same POA look at POI for “heavy” and “light” pellets. That will give you some idea in weight sensitivity. This could be especially good over multiple tins of the same pellet where one tin has a slightly different nominal weight than another.

        That would really be interesting experiment. Especially if combined with muzzle velocity numbers for each weight of pellet. For a given style of pellet, It would seem that the heavier pellet would have slightly lower muzzle velocity and so should drop more. That should be a good guess for a PCP. However I’m not so sure about a springer. All sorts of odd things happen with a springer.

        Herb


        • At 10 meters, shooting from sandbags, I can see very little difference between the POIs of heavy and light pellets. I think I would reject any pellets that show the kind of mold seam that BB was talking about for orientation; I would think it could easily cause fliers to left and right as well as up and down.

          I’m shooting either RWS R-10 or H&N Match, favoring R-10 except in my Russki Izzy pistol, which needs a pellet with a slightly smaller head (say 4.49mm) to fit and not waste energy in friction. RWS doesn’t sell head size selected pellets in the R-10 series, or rather neither PA nor its competitors seem to stock them.


  10. Edith,
    I receive all comments as I requested. I was wondering though several come through appearing almost as if in “hieroglyphics”, they also seem to be from previous articles. I’m sure they are some sort of spam because I have seen words such as “porn”, “viagra”, etc., but they are all coming from WordPress with one of the blog’s names in the Subject Field. Am I the only one noticing this or have others mentioned it?

    rikib


    • rikib,

      WordPress has a spam plug-in that catches these. When the blog was published through Blogger, there was a Blogger-related module that prevented some spam. With WordPress, the plug-in pulls the spam, and it never gets published. While Blogger had a setup that made it harder to submit spam, it DID publish the spam under the comments section if the poster was able to get around the system.

      Maybe I can ask our programmer to set it up so that all suspected spams are not emailed to anyone. They’d stay in the spam folder, and I’d go there a few times a day to delete or approve them. So far, I’ve found a couple in the folder that weren’t spams.

      Edith


      • Edith,
        Would forwarding you one of these messages help at all. I just received another that was several links to meds., but came in under subject of PyramydAir-Blog “Using appropriate pellet guns”. I’m just trying to help, not harass.

        rikib


  11. Speaking of simpilfing parts between models of guns. The Quackenbush Lighting pictured above is exactly the same as my Quackenbush .22RF boy’s rifle, except for the breech area. The lower half and stock are exactly the same.


  12. Robert from Arcade,can you feel gravity trying to pull that Quackenbush .22rf towards my collection.I am utilizing the Force….as my collection grows so does this power.It works just like Wacky Wayne’s cross dressing ninjas.It is just a matter of time. WHO-ha HA ha <-creepy laugh aproximated.:}


  13. BG Farmer: I just read your RR article and enjoyed it very much. I’m also interested on the tolerences on the newer ones. I wonder how the newest made in China RR’s compare to the last of the made in U.S.A. ones. The reason I do is that last year at a flea market I bought several old Daisy bb guns that were in pieces. One was an old Daisy 881 with the metal pump lever but no barrel, or barrel plug /front sight assembly. Got the idea to swap out a shot tube assembly from a brand new 880, to make the old one work. The swap went fine ,except that the new, made in China guts wouldn’t shoot better than 2″ at ten yards. So I switched it back into the new 880, and it still was bad. Called Daisy for parts, and obtained a made in the U.S.A. shot tube assembly and installed it into the China made gun, and it would shoot a 1/2″ 5 shot group at ten yards! I ended up repairing the old 881 with parts obtained from other sources. Of course,it would be impossible to evaluate accuracy in a BB gun, compared with the 880 with pellets.


    • Robert,
      I’m glad you enjoyed it. I read a while back (several months to a year or more?) that someone got a RR that was made in China, and immediately checked mine (the 1938B). As far as I can tell, it was made in Rogers, although it must be near the transition of production. Anyway, I don’t know what to think. In general, I’m more tolerant of Chinese products than many, but the RED RYDER, I just don’t know how they can export it:)! The only point of data I have is reviews of the new 25, which is made in China from the start, but I don’t have any experience with the 25 by which to interpret them.

      One point to ponder: even the US shot tubes are known to vary. According to BB’s article on the 499, coaches prior to its introduction used to order bundles of tubes and test for the best ones!

      BB gun accuracy is indeed relative:). My son and I were shooting at a 1.5″ wide pill bottle this afternoon. Up to 25 feet, it was easy (for me, and he hit it once before his mind started wondering:)), but another 10 feet made a real difference.


  14. Frank B.: I grew up right next to a gun shop, and I’ve been trading guns since I was 12. The “force” has no effect on me any longer, my karma cannot be compromised. The notion of cross dressing ninjas does creep me out though. Sorry ,Robert



  15. GengisJan,

    I sent this to you around 6p tonight. Guess it got lost in cyber space. Please let me know that you received this.

    I’m sorry, but I have to beg off for tomorrow. Some of the boys my kids went to school with are all getting together tomorrow. I couildn’t say no cause of the logistics that they went through to make it happen. I’ll be sling dogs and burgers rather than lead with you.

    When is the next fun Saturday?

    Jan, I sure don’t know why I couldn’t get a email through to you.

    Mr B.


  16. I’ll do a couple of quotes early tonight from the late, great Johnny Cash.

    How well I have learned that there is no fence to sit on between heaven and hell. There is a deep, wide gulf, a chasm, and in that chasm is no place for any man.
    Johnny Cash

    You’ve got to know your limitations. I don’t know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren’t too many limitations, if I did it my way.
    Johnny Cash

    Well that’s my quote’s for the night.

    rikib
    p.s. Sorry can’t build a airgun, I get over exuberant an would probably blow myself up. πŸ˜‰


  17. Ignore those funny looking comments. They are being filtered but us, using the email feature, are still them before they get filtered. There’s no economical way to trace them back to the original sender. There are legal sites that do mass emailings and mass blog advertising that can’t be prevented. There are scum in life that we must learn to live with. It’s the way of life on the internet. Kinda like tics on a dog. He can’t avoid them but eventually they get what they deserve.



  18. Orin,
    I can do that test you suggested. I hope in the process I find that pellet weight that gave me the 10 πŸ™‚ I’m sure it was not a chance shot but the result of a finely honed skill (yeah right).


  19. There’s nothing that makes a joyride in the country sweeter than knowing you’re blowing off your homework. Thanks for making my day better, Edith. Oops, my dog ate my PVC!



  20. Edith,
    My spam concerns are the same as rikib’s.

    If this is not appropriate for discussion here I apologize and you may delete this.

    Can you give me an estimate (hours or percent) as to how much time you and/or your support team spend dealing with spam?

    After receiving auto emails from your PA site and seeing so many spam attempts from slugs who are too cowardly to come out from under their respective rocks, I’m getting concerned that I or my volunteer group might have to spend a lot of time monitoring our new WordPress website.

    I do volunteer work for stroke survivors. We have a web site that is a resource for them that was developed by a local internet provider. We have decided to convert it to WordPress so we can have more control over it and give our sponsors more exposure(gee, kinda like you). Our sponsors are mostly hospitals (and we’re currently working with Odessa to get them on board).

    So far, we have not been hit with spam under the old system, probably because of our limited reach, however, our reach is doubling every year so spam will eventually become a major issue.


    • Chuck,

      We’ve just enabled a second spam filter. When spam hits my inbox, I just delete it immediately. Then, when I have time, I go to the administration section of the blog and delete all of them. As far as I know, they’ve never shown up on the blogs at all.

      I’ve asked the programmer to prevent all spams from being sent to anyone who gets the blog comments…including Tom and me. I check the spam folder several times a day and permanently delete the things trapped there.

      Edith



    • Gee twotalon, thanks a lot!
      SlingingLead: See what you’ve done to me? Just because I break pull rods on 54’s, smash 350s against tile floors and shred sight screws on HW30’s doesn’t make me the 800 lb gorilla of airgunning!
      πŸ˜€
      -AlanL





  21. Edith,
    This is totally off the subject of airgunning, but you had mentioned awhile back that you used Safari browser on your Mac. I’ve always been a PC user out of job necessity/compatibility. Even though I’ve convinced family members to go the Mac route. I use itunes so I receive options to update my PC netbook to Safari vs IE8. Do you know of any advantages going this route? I feel that Mac is a more stable system but was wondering why you chose it? Not trying to put you on the spot, you can answer personally if you prefer.

    rikib


    • rikib,

      Tom and I have used only Apple computers. In 1984, we had an Apple IIC, which was similar to a DOS computer. In 1985, we bought our first Mac. We’ve never owned PCs. I know programmers who have to use PCs for their work, but their home computers are Macs. I don’t have to know how electricity works to turn on the lights in my house, so why should I have to learn how a computer works to use the darned thing for my job? And that’s the beauty of Macs. They’re self-sufficient πŸ™‚

      Edith


      • Edith,
        You have it right they are self sufficient. When I retired from the Navy and became a draftsman I was so happy they where using Mac’s, 3 months later they converted to PC’s. Ithought it was a big mistake but it worked for me as I had won an award of a CAD PC system system out of tech school. I was locked into the “PC Gremlin” to keep my job and transfer files to and from home to work. My little sister wanted a computer and I told her Mac all the way, that was 15 years ago she’s never been disappointed. My netbook is capable of running PC, Mac or Linux so I’m thinking of which route to take, wife’s laptop is running windows (she’s not to adaptable to change). What do you find the best features are about “Safari”, as I can download it for free? Do you know if it is compatible with Norton 360 Security software?

        rikib


        • rikib,

          I don’t know if Norton’s virus protection is compatible with Safari. There’s a special feature in Safari that I’ve never found in FireFox, which is my other browser: If I want to email a web page (which I do 5-20 times a day), all I have to do is go to a heading in Safari and tell it to “Mail Contents of this Page” and the web page appears…perfectly formatted…in an email message. I love it!

          Edith




      • Chuck/rikib,

        Are you guys saying that you’re getting the commenter’s email address in the comments sent to your inboxes? As the admin, I receive them (until Tom returns & takes over that duty), but you should not receive them under any circumstances.

        Edith


        • Edith,
          Yes, I have received may peoples email addresses. I believe that from what Chuck has tested (do not know for sure) but when I mention in the work around that you could edit your name, I believe that you can edit your email. This does show up in the body of the new comments I’ve been receiving.

          rikib


          • Edith,
            I will try a test of my own as Chuck’s response seemed rather confusing as to what he was actually doing. I’ll let you know the results as soon as I get them.

            rikib


            • rikib,

              No more tests are required. I understood what Chuck was saying, and am mortified that personal email addresses were sent to others. I have made 3 panic-stricken phone calls, and just now got a phone call back with instructions on how to disable the new so-called “feature.” So, until they figure out how to send the comments without any of the additional stuff, that feature won’t happen. The “FROM” section in the email will again say “WordPress.”

              We won’t be activating that feature again until I am satisfied that the comments contain the name of the person making the comment (even if it’s only “anonymous”), the comment and a link to the blog on which the comment was made. No email address, no IP number and none of the other verbiage that isn’t useful.

              Edith


          • Edith,
            yes, email addresses are showing up. But they can be edited to be from anyone. I have your email address because you responded to a post. I’m trying one last thing a random name with no significance or valid address to see if it shows up highlighted as an email address for me. I’m using justme@here.com

            Let you know what happens

            rikib


      • No, I was wanting to see if one form or another would make it not need the:

        “Here is a recent comment that needs attention!
        Thank you for checking on it!
        PyramydAir Blog Admin”

        message.

        I thought I was causing special attention because I didn’t provide my email address. Apparently it doesn’t matter. The message is always presented.

        And, it started raining just as I was about to go riding so now I have to stay in and play or do my homework. Aaah! I can wait and do homework Sunday night but first I have to clean up the dog’s PVC pile


  22. Chuck,
    It does present a problem for those of us who are honest, the unscrupulous few that try to damage reputations of others will always try to find a way. We just need to hope and trust that the vast majority of us on this blog are here for each other, sharing info, facts, and fun. The others will be sorted out in due time.

    rikib


  23. Yes, I am getting the email addresses in the auto email. Here’s what I’m getting (email address changed to protect Ms. Edith our Mentor):

    “Here is a recent comment that needs attention!
    Thank you for checking on it!
    PyramydAir Blog Admin

    Author : Edith Gaylord (IP: 75.228.90.57)
    E-mail : exxxxxx@xxxxxx.net
    URL :

    Comment:
    Chuck/rikib,

    Are you guys saying that you’re getting the commenter’s email address in the comments sent to your inboxes? As the admin, I receive them (until Tom returns & takes over that duty), but you should not receive them under any circumstances.

    Edith”

    -Chuck


  24. Sorry for the confusion. I think I was replying to two different comments at the same time.

    I sent you, within quotes, the entire email sent by you that I recieved from the auto email feature.

    Wow, even this sounds confusing.

    ALSO, I sent you an email that needs your attention.

    -Chuck





    • Chuck,

      Glad things have gone back to the way they were. I was unaware that you were getting emails where the FROM section said ADMIN. When they lined up in my inbox, they had the names of the posters…rikib, Chuck, Edith Gaylord, etc. I’ll send an old Blogger comment to the programmer so he can see exactly what I want in the current blog’s email notifications.

      These are the types of things that give me nightmares. Literally!

      Edith


  25. Edith,
    Did you shut things down and go back to WordPress, that’s where I’m getting comments from now. I was in the middle of proving a test, but maybe your programmers found the problem as well.

    rikib


  26. Edith,
    I don’t know if this problem occurred with anyone who actually logged in. I don’t normally login, basically I don’t think about it after I do my MasterLogin via security software to PA (but I’m not technically logged into the blog). If this problem does not occur once someone actually logs into the blog, would it not be an easier work-around to require that everyone login to the blog prior to posting.

    Hopefully that will make some sense.

    rikib



  27. Edith,
    Mind you I’m just guessing. When I was a programmer in the Navy we programmed with “1’s” and “0’s” and the computer took up a whole room not like the netbook I have setting in front of me. Guess I’m showing my age πŸ˜‰

    rikib


  28. Mr B,

    Re: Bronco or new .177 Talon SS barrel

    Go with the new barrel for the Talon SS. The Bronco is very accurate but still a springer. The Talon is also very accurate but less sensitive, easier to shoot and less fatiguing since it doesn’t require 18 lbs to cock it the 30 – 60 times required to shoot the eMatches.

    IN NO WAY is this meant to disparage the Bronco. I still really like the Bronco because it is an easy springer to shoot and very accurate. However, these two guns are apples to oranges and it’s not fair to try to compare them. My personal preference is pneumatic air guns so there is a bias there, but I still shoot the Bronco in the eMatch matches as well as the Talon.

    -Chuck


  29. Orin/Herb,
    I need direction. I just weighed out 50 of my most accurate pellets for the Talon SS, Crosman Premiers 7.9gr boxed. Thirty-three were 7.9gr, nine were 7.8gr and eight were 8.0gr. I don’t think this is enough of a spread to show the results we’re looking for, do you? My dilemma is if I pick a pellet that is not accurate in the Talon, the shots will be so far off anyway because they aren’t for this gun that I won’t be able to tell what’s going on, either.

    I will proceed with what I’ve got but would like your thoughts on this, anyway. I suppose I could count out another 50 and see if I can find a wider spread but the 50 I have is probably a good example of what’s in the box, don’t you think?
    -Chuck


    • Chuck,

      I’d agree. I don’t think that the difference between 7.9 grain pellets, and a mix of 7.8 and 8.0 would be significant due to weight alone.

      The other factor that is a real mystery is what happens to the aerodynamics when pellets are badly formed when “grossly” over or undersized. Again 7.8 or 8.0 is probably not enough to be noticeable. But if you had a pellet that was only 7.2 grains or one that was 8.5 gains (due to excess lead inside skirt), then the flight characteristics are likely to be very different than a standard, well formed, 7.9 grain pellet.

      The weight difference was sort of what I had in mind when I referred to different tins. Pellets from two machines with different setups could be 0.2 or 0.3 grains apart in nominal weight. That would give you a lot of pellets to test.

      Orin’s point was about exactly about trying to measure the real group size variation due to the weight variation for well formed pellets. If you use an equal mix of light and heavy pellets, then the spread is as bad as it could possible get from pellet weight.

      Don’t see any difference? Then don’t waste you time sorting by weight. This of course also depends on how big a variation you want to eliminate. To find a 50% difference requires little testing. to find a 1% change will require a lot of testing.

      Herb


    • Plugged some numbers into Chairgun quickly. Great for this sort of “what-if?”…

      Assume 850fps for standard CP lights weighing 7.9 grains. The energy is 12.68 ft-lbs. Now let’s bump weight to 8.1 grains. For 12.68 ft-lbs the velocity drops to 839.5 fps. If the 7.9s are zeroed in a 20 yards, then the heavier pellets are -0.031 inches relative. So the question is can you shoot well enough to see a 1/6 diameter of the pellet change in the POI?

      So for pellets which are just marginally off the nominal weight then not much difference would be expected. But if you have a few stinkers that are 0.5 grain off, then the aerodynamics are probably very far from nominal. These could go anywhere. It would also seem that it would be easy to get less lead than nominal into the mold than more. Think of a hidden air bubble inside the pellet.

      Although CPHs have a different profile, they would probably give you some idea of the difference. Measure difference in POI for same energy (which wouldn’t be true of course in real life). Chairgun predicts .323 inches. Given a 2.1 grain difference in weight, that yields about 0.15 inches per grain. The 0.2 grain difference between 7.8s and 3.0s again predicts difference in POI of 0.03 inches.

      Hope this helps –

      Herb




        • Chuck,

          Sorry, I came into this one kind of late. I was going to suggest you use a heavier pellet like the 10.5’s, hoping for greater deviation. Do you have any JSB Heavy’s or Kodiak’s on hand?

          For this test, I don’t think it really matters if what you use is the best performing pellet in the gun, as long as your gun doesn’t shoot them poorly. If you’re getting dime-sized groups with Brand X sorted pellets, then you probably won’t get dime sized groups with an extreme deviation of Brand X pellets (or so logic dictates). That’s really all we’re trying to prove/disprove. If your gun shoots the pellets so bad that they’re getting sprayed all over the place, obviously that could pollute the comparison, but any average performer should be ok. I would simply pick a pellet that groups decently, but that offers a little more diversity from which to obtain your “strategically unsorted” line-up. That should hopefully exaggerate the results sufficiently.

          – Orin


  30. CJr,

    Funny that your post about the Bronco and Talon SS was staring me in the face cause I went on line to ask you how Mr T likes his HPA option along with his servant –you. How does it compair with Ms M?

    You arfe a bravce individual to put out “I need direction.” without any real q
    ualifiers.

    Mr B.


  31. Mr B,
    Keep in mind I’m comparing a .177 Talon to a .22 Marauder. The Talon on air and the Marauder may be equal equal in accuracy. Marauder might have an edge but now that I’ve found how accurate the Crosman Premier 7.9s are I want to do more shooting before that’s my final answer.

    I want to do more comparison of the CP 7.9s to the CP 10.5 also which were the most accurate on CO2 before I got hold of the 7.9 on air. I would have thought the heavier pellet would have been the best for the higher fps. I really wanted the 7.9s for my Bronco but they don’t work at all. The 7.0 Hobby is still king with that gun. Then for kicks I tried the 7.9s on Mr T and was shooting great with them.

    The Talon on air is WAY louder than the Marauder. Almost but not quite like a .22 rimfire, but without the cool gunpowder smell. On CO2 it was a louder than the Marauder, also, but on air it must be twice as loud as CO2, if not more.

    The Talon air bottle is smaller in diameter than the CO2 bottle and the air has a “butt pad” attachment whereas the CO2 does not. The air bottle makes a better stock, and a deeper pellet hole. Course we’re comparing ~650fps CO2 to ~950fps air with the same pellet.

    I’ll stay with the air because it’s easier for me to get air and the scuba people are more reliable than the CO2 people. Although I did find a fire equipment store recently that fills CO2 and I would think they should know what they’re doing.

    I like the air also because it’s not temperature sensitive. I don’t like worrying about POI changes during a session because the bottle is going cold from shooting and I don’t like waiting for it to warm up again.

    I also just put on another scope on Mr T and haven’t gotten that ironed out yet. The scope I had on there has a loose crosshair, I think. The other day I was getting inconsistent results and couldn’t get the adjustments to be consistent and on a whim I taped on the side of the scope and fired a shot that was a 1/2″ off POA, which is not Mr T’s modus operandi. I need to check the old scope to see if it zeroed correctly but I’m pretty sure it was at one time.


  32. I’m going to try some boxed Crosman Premiers 10.5gr some more now that my Talon is on air and, if they still work out, I’ll weigh some to see if they will make a better test. If I remember right, I have weighed them before and there were some at least .2 off on either side.


  33. Chuck
    My TSS with either 12″ or 18″ barrel likes the cph 10.5 pellets. They fight the wind pretty good too. That’s running on air. I don’t do co2.

    twotalon


  34. I weighed 50 .177 Crosman Premiers 10.5gr with the following results:

    10.4 – 18
    10.5 – 22
    10.6 – 9
    10.7 – 1

    Not quite the closer tolerance of the 7.9 gr but pretty darn good. I’ll count out 50 more of these, too, to see if the stats hold. Not tonight though. Sorting requires me to have more stamina than I have right now.


  35. For those interested, I’m using an RCBS RangeMaster 750 digital scale that I bought from (a company whose name is similar to a WWII battle in the Pacific).


  36. So PyramydAir is affiliated with this blog? That begs questions about the accuracy in the reviews for guns from the Air Venturi line. Also, some other guns possibly, given the close relation between PA and some airgun manufacturers. I had similar questions for Paul Capello of Air Gun Reporter, being affiliated with PA. The very little criticism he gives is somewhat proof of the more of a sales pitch than a legitimate review.

    I still love these resources in light of the lack of alternative. I do still hope for a truly unbiased point of view. My two cents.


    • Ryan,

      It’s never been a secret that Pyramyd Air owns this blog site or the one that was published through Blogger since 2005. I think you might want to take a look at the serious criticisms of guns reviewed in the blog. We report the accuracy by showing the targets and we report the actual velocities, too. In fact, we’ve had manufacturers complain because of the honest reviews. We don’t believe in altering the truth.

      I can understand your concern about the Air Venturi line, especially since Tom developed the Bronco. However, he based it on a Mendoza gun that he already found to be accurate, so he knew it would be a good gun because he’d tested it beforehand. And, he made sure the Bronco version of the gun was accurate and achieved the velocities Pyramyd Air stated before the gun was even listed on the website.

      Edith


      • Thank you so much for your reply. I wasn’t aware of the ownership. I was ignorant enough to think it was more of a friendship. I don’t profess to have read all of the articles in the blog, but so far I can’t say anything negative. I hold this blog to a higher standard than Air Gun Reporter, that is for sure. I wonder if anyone else has found AGR less concerned with the truth, with statement like “the gun wanted to shoot a lot better…” and other phrases downplaying a certain guns inaccuracy. Sorry if I came of antagonistic. That isn’t my aim at all. πŸ™‚



          • I’m pretty new to the field of air gunning. Is that meant to explain poor hold technique? I personally would like to see reviewers use something like the lead sled Paul Capello used when reviewing H&N Finale Match pellets. That way there would be an objective standpoint, more so than the skill of an individual, which would vary and be better for one gun, but not another and give us such problems. πŸ˜›


            • Ryan,

              The problem is that a lead sled or vice cannot be used with all guns. That technique might work with many pneumatics and CO2’s, but springers will always be an exception. Springers tend to shoot better when held loosely – i.e. “artillery hold” than when rested directly on a bag, bi-pod, or held in a vice. There will always be the element of human error in these guns, and it would actually be more biased, in my opinion, to use techniques (like a lead sled) that work better on one platform than on another, or that might not be practical for everyone in the field. Personally, I like that Paul uses the same tried and true bench setup in the Air Lodge and lets the audience know when he’s having an off day.

              – Orin


              • I would think even in a springer, if the sled is tight it wouldn’t cause it to not group. I understand that you may differ with your opinion, and I agree it is easier to do it the way he does it. Logistics of the sled idea are much more complicated, but I think it would yield a result worth listening to. The current setup is such that there is no negative criticism for accuracy as far as I can tell. I remember one episode when the gun was completely all over the place and he couldn’t really say much beside the obvious. To each his own though.


                • Ryan,

                  When I first began watching the videos and reading this blog, I wondered why Paul and Tom don’t just come out and say, “Don’t waste your money on this thing, it’s a POS!” But now I’ve come to appreciate that they don’t. Like you said, everyone has their own opinion. Everyone also has varying needs, tastes, and expectations. The objectivity with which Paul and Tom review each product allows the consumer to determine whether the product is aptly suited to him/her. As you noted, a gun that cannot group speaks for itself in the accuracy tests, whether or not the narrator points out the obvious. But it doesn’t necessarily mean (think Red Ryder) that it wouldn’t be perfect for a young amateur on a budget, or (think Drozd) that it isn’t still very fun to shoot.

                  As for springers, I am in the process of trying to find the best hold on a recently purchased Benjamin Trail XL1100. After finding which pellets it likes, I have put over 600 more rounds through it testing different hold methods and mediums, in one 10-shot test after another. Less hold sensitive springers, like my TX200, are more forgiving, but this thing absolutely refuses to group when directly benched. Some of the best groups I have gotten with it are offhand standing position, which I normally really suck at (something about dancing crosshairs really bothers me). Yet I can place it directly on a bag (with tape markers on the stock and rest for consistency), lock in on the target using any number of holds, and the results are somehow less precise than if I just use my other hand as a front support. Opinions aside, in the specific environment I’m describing for you (and undoubtedly others), a lead sled would be less indicative of the results than can be otherwise achieved.

                  – Orin


                  • Orin and Ryan,

                    Tom once tested a very fine Air Arms gun that he just didn’t like. He loved the TX200, the TX200 Hunter Carbine and
                    just about every other Air Arms gun he’d tried, including the now-vintage Shamal. When he reported on the, he gave it
                    a mediocre review. People are not robots, and they sometimes like or dislike something based on one feature or point
                    that means more to them than it does to other shooters. That was the case with this particular gun. It was popular,
                    is still being sold 10+ years later and has a very avid following. In fact, several people who liked that model were
                    so distraught over Tom’s review of the gun that they never spoke to us again.

                    That’s why Tom tells you about the gun, but he doesn’t tell you this gun is a waste of money (there have been exceptions,
                    and sometimes the manufacturers/importers call to complain!). He reports the velocities he gets and what the mfr says
                    it’s supposed to get. Same with accuracy. He’ll show the targets and tell you what size group a gun shot.
                    If someone thinks the accuracy is good enough for their purposes, then they’ll be interested in the gun.
                    The accuracy may not be good enough as far as Tom is concerned, but then, again, he may not use the gun for the same
                    reason someone else is using it.

                    Never presume that your needs and requirements are the same as the next guy. Case in point:
                    Look at the reviews for the
                    Gamo Big Cat 1200.
                    As I write this, there are 111 reviews, with an average rating of 5 out of 5 stars. This gun is wildly popular,
                    even though it doesn’t have a great trigger and the scope isn’t that great. Yet, people rave about it.
                    I told Tom to test it, which he did, yet he didn’t exactly rave about the gun. The gun is also quite loud.
                    Yet, this baby flies off the shelves and almost everyone loves it. It’s never going to be as good as a TX200,
                    but that doesn’t mean it has no place in someone’s arsenal.

                    Edith


                    • Thank you for your replies, Edith and Orin. I see what you mean now. I thank you for helping educate me. πŸ™‚


  37. Edith,
    You decoded my secret vendor of digital scales. You are to be commended. I lack a list of allowable vendors and un-allowable ones. In lieu of that, I take no chances of offending my mentors. πŸ™‚
    -Chuck


    • Chuck,

      Decode? Not hardly. I’m sure just about everyone knew exactly which vendor you were talking about!

      If you post a link that’s not allowed, your post will be deleted. That’s EXACTLY how B.B. has been handling it on the old blog for the past 5 years. Nothing’s changed just because we have a new site. Same rules.

      Edith


    • Chuck,

      I think the general rule of thumb is that if your are 1) linking to a direct competitor of PA (like another airgun site), or 2) to another vendor for a specific product that PA carries, your post might be deleted.

      In the case of scales, PA doesn’t carry them and MidwayUSA is not really a competing (specialty) retailer of airguns.

      – Orin


      • Orin,

        Add to that list: if you’re listing links just to hitch a ride onto Pyramyd Air’s coattails. If you got all the comments in your inbox, you’d see that there are a lot of those. Because this blog has a good-size following, others would very much like to put their URLs on this site to attract our readers. I recently deleted one spam (which was never posted because our spam filter caught it) that had about 30 URLs in it.

        Edith



  38. Edith,
    Looks like your programmers have got this sorted out for now. I know I can screw with it but I won’t, as it at least is not giving out personal email addresses. Tell them tkanks for all the good work, and making me use my brain in ways I haven’t in a very long time. Made me almost feel young again! πŸ˜‰

    rikib


  39. This is both a quote and a line from his song. It’s rather deep when you really take time to think about it.

    Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.
    Kris Kristofferson

    Let us not forget this.

    When I started counting my blessings, my whole life turned around.
    Willie Nelson

    rikib



  40. When the simple airgun entries are over, I suggest looking at youtube for additional ideas. Being an airgun nut, I was looking at making your own BB gun a while back and saw some pretty simple and interesting designs.

    This weekend, if I have time..I may take the motorcycle out later for spin and later go out in the countrside and shoot airguns and .22LRs. I didn’t have much time and weather was really bad this last winter, so I didn’t get a chance to get many rabbits. Now there are so many rabbits, it’s not even funny. I think the rabbits have gang up on the cats and cheased them away.


  41. Fused,

    Thanks for the link to that auction sight. However, it’s probably going to take ALOT of cash to purchase ony of them.. Did you check out the Class III stuff?

    Mr B.



  42. For those who are new to this blog. Pyramyd Air wants this site to be free from foul language. I’ve deleted one entry from last night. I’m not offended as I’ve used foul language on occasion myself…just not on this blog πŸ™‚

    Thanks for understanding!

    Edith


  43. Edith,
    It seems as though your programmers may have found a good fix for the time being, emails coming thru well with poster noted in subject (no email addresses). Only problem I’ve seen is back too getting junk mail thru WordPress, guess you can’t have everything. Hat’s off to all!

    rikib


  44. Edith,

    Good Afternoon to you and Tom. I truly like the fix to the blog that who the poster is in my email. Sure makes it easy to delete the spamers. Don’t even have to open most of them up–just hit the delete button.

    Thanks, Mr B.


  45. albeit you can still forge who you are if you don’t log in. At some point though we must trust our fellow bloggers until given a reason not to.

    rikib


  46. Mr B,
    Thanks for that link to Tim McMurry. His article is based on the Condor’s performance, I believe. If his observations with the Condor can be applied to the Talon SS I have learned some very valuable info.

    One piece has me wondering, as it might conflict with BB’s opinion, if my memory and level of understanding is accurate. I think, and I emphasize THINK not know for sure, BB considers max spread of more than 20fps on a 10 shot session as undesirable. Am I understanding that correctly? Does this apply only to springers? Tim is saying a 30-40fps max spread is good.

    I have been doing one thing he mentioned as proper and that is using a power setting between 0 and 4. Anything higher wastes air (unless you move to a heavier pellet) and doesn’t improve accuracy. I have been using 2.

    Tim also mentioned valve head adjustment, an option I feel leery about messing with. He also said “Accuracy nuts should try the trick of taking the hammer weight out and fitting a standard Talon tank. You’ll find out what kind of accuracy these guns are capable of and stop (paraphrased: irritating) your neighbors. No mods required.” What’s he talking about? How do you remove a hammer weight and does the Talon SS even have one. And is this really a safe thing to do. If the answer is yes, and yes then why is it there in the first place.

    He also made this statement, “If you stand on it the velocity will only drop every shot so you can’t get as many shots within a useful range. ” Do you know what he means by “stand on it”? Does that mean set the wheel at full power?

    -Chuck


    • Chuck…
      Springers, co2, and pumpers should have a consistent velocity. The tighter the spread the better. PCP’s do not have consistent velocity unless they are regulated.

      An unregulated PCP can be tuned to shoot a ‘bell curve’ while the others can’t.

      That is why you see a different allowance in velocity spread mentioned.

      Condors have a hammer weight that Talons do not have. It is necessary to open the large high flow Condor valve, but will hit a Talon valve far too hard at any power wheel setting.

      Condors shoot all but the heaviest pellets too fast for best accuracy, and slowing them down enough can be difficult. Running on a Talon valve will drop the velocity into a more useable range.

      Stand on it…crank the power up as high as you can get it.
      Wastes air , very noisy, reduces accuracy, does not give any more velocity.

      Even if you do not want to tune a bell curve and just use a downhill curve, set the power wheel just high enough to reach max velocity..with consistency. Going higher will cut your shot count.

      twotalon



        • I have fooled around with the tophats some.
          I start out with the Power Wheel high enough to get max velocity, then adjust the tophat down until the power drops. Then I bring the tophat back up enough to reach max velocity (consistently )again. Then I fool with the Power Wheel to get it set just high enough to consistently reach max velocity.
          Tank topoffs as necessary depending on how many shots I’m burning up.

          This was for standard Talon and TSS setups. I can’t seem to get a decent bell curve with them no matter what I have tried so I set up for a downhill curve with a bit of a flat spot at the beginning.

          There may be a better way, but it works OK for me.

          The ‘Talondor’ setup…
          It shoots a nice curve right where I want it, so have not fooled with the tophat.

          twotalon


  47. I have some Kodiacs and some Baracudas that I just ordered. As soon as they arrived I shot 5 shot groups with them in my Talon along with the CPH and saw they all three grouped the same. Excellent results. Though, I didn’t do that “shoot five pellets to condition the barrel thing” first when I changed pellet types. I have the JSB’s also but didn’t shoot them when I did the above. So this means I have at least 150 more pellets if not 300 to sort after I sort 50 more for each of the previous CP types I sorted. Whew! Now I know why no one has done this test before. Maybe I’ll get lucky and find a nice spread with the Kodis or Baras.
    -Chuck


    • Chuck,

      πŸ™‚ Sounds like you’ll be keeping busy. I wish I had a scale so I could perform the tests along with you… it’s something I’ve always been curious about as well. Thanks for dedicating the time to do this.

      – Orin


  48. Edith,
    Would it be beyond consideration that people who want to post must login. Many sites do this, you can read all you want, but in order to post you must be a registered user and login. This may help in identifying/limiting abusers. I don’t see why that any honest person would fail to register if their info is kept confidential.

    rikib


  49. Edith,
    Due to a feature of gmail the auto emails I’m getting are being threaded by the Subject line and not by time. Since the subject now contains the author I get just that persons comments in the thread. Any replies from another person get threaded by that person and I can’t reasonably follow what’s going on.

    I don’t expect you to change the present format to accommodate gmail quirks. Don’t drop me yet, but since it’s not working for me I may ask to be removed from the auto email list. I’m going to try to use MS Internet Explorer to see if that makes more sense.
    -Chuck


    • No, that was silly of me to think that would make a difference. gmail is gmail regardless of what browser I use. But keep me on the auto list for now. I’ll muddle through somehow. For me, it is nearly impossible to follow a days worth of threads and sub-threads. Weekends are even harder because there are so many more comments.

      Would someone explain (detail please) to me (again) how to activate and use the RSS feeds or whatever. I’ll give that a try since some seem to find that manageable.
      -Chuck



      • Here’s what I do, Chuck…

        Using Internet Explorer, the first time I open up the blog, I read it all the way through it from the main blog page. After I’m done, I hold down the Control key and click on the “Comments RSS” link under the Airgun Academy Links section (top right). That opens the RSS feed in another tab, still allowing me to flip back and forth if I desire.

        The RSS feed default settings update the comments once a day. So it will not automatically notify you of new replies the way e-mail does, but you can change this setting using the feed properties link if you desire. Since I’m not in front of the computer all day, I simply use the IE Refresh button to display the new comments when I find myself checking in. New comments will have a blue header while the old ones (the ones that were there before the last refresh) will be grayed out.

        Since the RSS view is not threaded, sometimes a response is out of context and can be confusing. Fortunately, if you click on the response’s header, it will take you directly to the threaded view of that post on the main blog page, no matter what article it was in. This is a really cool feature. When you’re done, hit the back button to get back to the comments.

        Before this new format, I had no experience with RSS. But you will see that it’s relatively simple and easy to follow. Hopefully this helps.

        – Orin


      • Chuck,

        I get all comments, but I was scanning each one for newbies who needed help (which is easier now that the name of the commenter is included). However, I respond through the RSS feed, which I keep open all day and refresh regularly.

        Edith


  50. We’re off at Dover NASCAR!!!

    Chuck, I’m not familiar with gmail my brother uses it I never have. You cannot sort by time from what I understand?

    rikib


    • With gmail the original email and all replies are grouped by what’s in the “Subject” area. That whole group shows up in chronological order with all the other groups based on the time of the last reply.

      Here is what I see:

      WordPress(9) >> From: rikib – Re: “Beginning airgun design” 2:15am
      Wordpress(6) >> From: duskwight – Re: “Pellet preparation” 3:41pm

      The first entry has 9 comments the second has 6. Since the person’s name is in the subject area all I see are that person’s comments on that subject when I open it.

      -Chuck


  51. rikiB

    PA does not require someone to login because they don’t want new visitors to not ask a question only because they don’t want to bother with registration.

    When I asked my first questions on this blog, it was posted under ‘Anonymous’, if I remember correctly, your first questions were as well. It just keeps things easy for the new guys.

    Have you been shooting the 2240 lately?


    • Yes my first were under anonymous until I determined this was a quality site. I’m just trying to offer solutions that is all, not excluded anyone.
      I have been shooting the 2240 occasionally between messing with birdhouse and other honey do list.
      Did I fail to mention wife is not keen on my having an air gun at all, and I’m trying to talk her into letting me buy a 45/410.

      rikib


  52. Chuck,

    twotalon has pretty much answered all the questions that you asked about Tim’s article, except one. Tim’s comments apply tothe Talon, TSS and Condor. I don’t have a Condor tank for comparison, but from what I’ve read about the Condor it’s tops for pure power while the 24″ barreled Talon or TSS with the standard Talon tank is probably the best balance between power, accuracy and shot count.

    Oops, forgot to address your comment about aggravating the neighbors. It refers to the noise of a Condor being fired. Depending on pellet weight there’ll be the supersonic crack plus the muzzle blast of all the exiting air. However, an AirHog shroud will make that noise go away. B.B. stated that it’ll make an AirForce gun quieter than a Marauder.

    Mr B.



    • Mr B

      I have been running my Talon (18″ .22) on a Condor power supply.
      With Kodiaks I get a good looking bell curve in the mid 900’s for fps and a velocity spread of 30-35 fps over 30+shots.

      It is one of the newer Condor valves. Standard Talon hammer with Condor weight added.

      twotalon



  53. I clicked on “Comments RSS” and that is looking great. Not as reactive/proactive as auto emails but will do just fine.

    One question: at the top is a place to set up different tools to “subscribe” to the feed. What I’m seeing already is a pretty good format. Why would I want to subscribe? What does that give me?


    • Chuck,

      I think that’s for if you use a separate reader, like Google Reader or Blogger Dashboard, that can compile all your daily reads into one place. If you’re just using the RSS comments, I don’t think it has any impact. Somebody please correct me if I’m mistaken.

      – Orin



    • I really can’t help anymore. If you subscribe, I believe that you will be subscribing to a discussion (particular blog) not a daily updated blog. I maybe wrong though. When I go on the blog I quickly check the RSS feed for any new comments.

      rikib


      • rikib,

        The RSS feed is for the all blog postings on this site, not just one day’s blog. So, a comment on any blog posting will show up on the RSS feed.

        However, the podcast and video RSS feeds not part of the blog’s comment feed. At this time, there aren’t many comments on those 2 sites, so it’s not too much for me to cover by myself. If I find something that requires more expertise than I can provide, I’ll post a comment on the most recent blog to bring it to everyone’s attention.

        Edith


        • Edith,
          I don’t know if all browers provided it but with the IE8 RSS you have 3 different options to subscribe to. Or you do not have to subscribe and the third option is always the current blog. I’m not sure but I think if you subscribe to that title you maybe locked into it. Anyway, I’ve never seen any reason to subscribe the comments for the current blog are always there.

          rikib


  54. Hi THERE!Only foul language you will get from me is foul gramatics,so you can joke if you will;),six years after highschool and my english has somewhat rusted.I yust red an article about slavija 631 and i must to say that it is shame couse it s not importing outside Europe(i think) it is off topic but it is a great gun,accurate 10-15 meters target shooting gun,i gave some comments on old forum and no i am not from Alaska;) i am from estern european state Croatia


    • Croatia-Serbia,

      Just so you know in the future (I’m not judging you, because I use bad words myself sometime) you used a word that refers to human excrement that we in the US consider offensive. I understand that you are not familiar with the English language so the word probably doesn’t have the effect on you as it might on someone more sensitive to such things. The comment you made follows (I changed your last word because it is the offensive one. I hope my change is even acceptable). You said:

      “I AM FROM CROATIA,EASTERN EUROPE EX YUGOSLAVIJA;)!Yo know Yugo and that…s**t:)”

      I’m very glad to have you on the blog so please don’t take offense to me pointing the above out to you. I hope to hear more from you and would like to hear about where you live and your air gunning purchasing/shooting experiences in your country.

      Regards and best wishes,
      -Chuck


      • Chuck,

        Yes, that’s what he said, and I deleted it. Your posting will be allowed because you’re trying to help Croatia not do it again. That’s appreciated!

        I have the capability to go in and edit any comment, but I refuse because that’s a slippery slope on which I don’t want to start. Once you’ve changed someone’s comment to make it “acceptable” (even if it’s just removing foul language), then you leave yourself open to criticism that other comments may have been tampered with. I don’t want to go there. Thanks for helping out on this one!

        Edith


    • Hey! I had a Yugo once! When the Bosch fuel injection went on the fritz I put in a 1500cc FIAT SOHC motor with a carb and some exhaust work, and lowered it a bit. Ugly, but fun.


  55. i have question for you guys is the JM spring actualy better(it is shorter)or it yust eliminates twang?I’ve been reading about cases that somebody buy JM kit and gets power loss on the gun.I was thinking about something to boost a litlle bit power and accuracy on my diana 34 22 cal.Sory for going of topic again


    • C-S,
      Don’t have any useful information for you. One thing I can say is that we are here to exchange ideas, good and bad, and have a good time (sometimes at our own expense). We invite all the expertise available. Personally I don’t think you are ever “off topic” or I’d never have anything to say! ;P

      rikib


    • I hope that Vince or someone like that will see your question, but I can tell what little I know or think:). The JM springs are often shorter then OEM in order to give you the option of “detuning” a gun; you can also space them up some in order to increase power. Detuning is not as bad as it sounds. Many guns are oversprung, making them recoil more and more hold sensitive. Many times by backing down just a little, the gun will become easier to cock, to shoot well (translates as “more accurate”), more pleasant, and less punishing to scopes. If you want maximum power, you should start with a heavier spring (which may require custom guides) with more coils, etc. Depending on the original design and condition, aggressive tuning may give you a substantial power boost, but make the gun harsher in use. You can minimize the bad effects by careful work (piston weight, transfer port, and so on), but, in my opinion, the main component of power output is air volume (cylinder diameter and stroke), so the spring can only do so much. Pushing it to the maximum is most likely to make the gun a pain to shoot.

      I’d say try a JM spring and experiment with the spacing versus power and shootability. I’d be willing to bet that you will find a “sweet spot” where the power is close to maximum, but past which the gains are expensive in terms of recoil, etc. I believe this is the goal that JM has in making his springs the way he does.


    • JM springs can be long or short. The one he sells for a Cometa 400 is a REAL doozy… very long. But in general JM designs his springs for smoothness and longevity, not velocity. His experience has taught him that trying to boost a gun’s performance with stronger springs results in a lot of trade-off’s (bad firing behavior, that sort of thing), and isn’t worthwhile.

      But the ’34 in .22 ought to be pretty strong as it is – unless it’s losing power through the breech seal. I’ve worked on several Diana 34’s, and EVERY ONE OF THEM had a leaking seal. The worst, I think, was a 34 Panther in .22 that I had – shimming the ‘O’ ring brought the velocity up from around 600fps to about 730fps. That’s a jump in velocity of about 22%, and an increase in power by almost 50%.

      /blog/2008/4/shimming-a-diana-breech-seal/


      • Vince,
        Do you have the Cometa 400 or RWS 94 (I think)? That spring also fits QB36-2, but in that application, the OEM preload is something ridiculous (several inches)! Just wondering if it is the same in 400. The e3650 spring works great with some spacing. Good point on the breech seal — you are the man for that — I have you to thank for thinking to replace mine when the clunk got erratic; a little 5/16 fuel line restored the firing cycle and consistency.


        • It’s the 94. Got 2 of ’em. The JM spring is so long it takes a HECKUVA set the first time you cock it. The preload of the unset spring was so bad – this is the ONLY gun I ever assembled (without a compressor!) where I honestly thought that I might not be able to it back together. But I did!


  56. I have now sorted 100 Crosman Premiers 10.5.

    Yesterday(50) Today(52) Total(102)
    10.4 – 18 10.4 – 22 10.4 – 40
    10.5 – 22 10.5 – 13 10.5 – 35
    10.6 – 9 10.6 – 14 10.6 – 23
    10.7 – 1 10.7 – 2 10.7 – 3
    11.0 – 0 11.0 – 1 11.0 – 1

    Let’s see if WordPress keeps my column alignment. Blogger didn’t, it removed spaces.


    • Nope it destroyed my column spacing.

      I have now sorted 100 Crosman Premiers 10.5.

      Yesterday(50) .. Today(52) .. Total(102)
      10.4 – 18 …… 10.4 – 22 .. 10.4 – 40
      10.5 – 22 …… 10.5 – 13 .. 10.5 – 35
      10.6 – 9 ……. 10.6 – 14 .. 10.6 – 23
      10.7 – 1 ……. 10.7 – 2 … 10.7 – 3
      11.0 – 0 ……. 11.0 – 1 … 11.0 – 1



      • Chuck,

        Wow – those are still some very impressive deviations. You can all but completely disregard the single 11.0 pellet, and the fact that over 97% of your results are within +/- 1% of the advertised weight is a little scary. Looks like it’s time to shelf that batch and go with another brand… πŸ™‚

        – Orin



        • Orin,

          You may find this hard to believe, but Pyramyd Air has rec’d complaints from customers who have weighed their pellets and found that all of them are not the exact weight that’s stamped on the tin.

          People expect perfection, which is impossible when it comes to manufacturing processes.

          Edith


          • Edith,

            I’m actually not surprised. One of the reasons I might have been subject to the very same line of logic at one time is largely due to the labeling. When a tin lists the weight out to the 1/100 grain (ex: the new H&N’s), a novice would undoubtedly be tempted to assume the weight deviation should be accurate within 1/100 grain. I realize all these numbers come from the manufacturers and the vendor just communicates them, but I wonder, has a manufacturer ever advertised their expected deviation (ex: 10.65 grain, +/- 2%)? Seems like it would be a good marketing technique or price rationalization, especially for something like the boxed CP’s that already have very tight tolerances.

            – Orin


        • Orin,
          I shot that 11.0gr Crosman Premier and it went 1/4″ off POA. I couldn’t see any external defects in the pellet except what the scale said. The 10.7gr were flyers also but not as far as 1/4″. I found only three 10.7gr pellets in the batch. The 10.4 and 10.6 were close but the 10.5 were the most accurate.

          I used the eMatch bench rest target as my accuracy scale. Each bull has roughly a 3/16″ 10 ring, a 1/8″ 9 ring, and 1/4″ 8 ring. If a pellet is in the 10 ring but even touches the 9 ring it’s counted a 9. Different scoring and very hard to score a 10. There are 30 bulls on a 8 1/2″ X 11″ sheet. I adjusted the scope for a 10 ring POA/POI.

          I got the following results with the different sorted pellets:

          10.4gr: 4 eight rings, 5 nine rings
          10.5gr: 1 eight, 11 nines
          10.6gr: 5 eights, 4 nines

          Conclusion: the 10.5gr in this session were the most accurate and consistent. I shot more of them yet got fewer eight rings.

          I mixed up the shots so fatigue would not be a factor.

          I didn’t get any 10s but came arguably close on several of those nines. If these bulls would have been the type with an x in them I would have scored 9 x’s out of 30. I blame the scope adjustment.



          • Chuck,

            Very fascinating that even with such tight tolerances, you were able to achieve diverse enough results to be measurable. Bravo! You have just given us solid evidence that POI changes as the weight changes. I’m glad you ended up shooting that 11.0 grainer after all, as it really illustrated the same notion. I was going to ask you about visible defects, so thanks for touching on that. Now I have one last question. Regarding precision (grouping behavior), without regards to accuracy (proximity to POA), what were your results amongst the same-weight pellets?

            I’m not sure if I’m asking that clearly, so let me try to phrase it another way. To have achieved nine rings with 11 out of 12 10.5’s, there would need to have been some very tight grouping, had they all been shot at the same target. Referencing your results from the 10.4’s, the POI’s obviously shifted, but did they all shift the same direction and distance (still small groups), or did they shift different directions and different distances (larger groups)? I’m using the word “groups” loosely, because I realize you only shot one pellet at each target.

            This probably seems like an odd – and extremely anal – path to go down, but here’s why I’m curious: I had always assumed that with sorted pellets, it wouldn’t matter which batch (i.e. – 10.4’s, 10.5’s, 10.6’s) you picked up and shot. I figured that POI’s might change and POA might require compensation within each batch, but that any sorted batch would shoot equally as precisely (group equally as well) as any other.

            However, Crosman obviously designed the CPH to weigh 10.5 grains, which means there is likely some structural defect (air bubble, protruding seam, etc.) in the 10.4’s and 10.6’s that would cause them to weigh slightly differently. If that’s true, such structural defects could not possibly be consistent, and would theoretically cause decreased precision in any sorted batch not weighing the ideal 10.5 grains. I realize that I’m totally ignoring the hypothetical variable that a gun might naturally prefer one sorted weight over another and therefore shoot it more precisely, invisible defects notwithstanding, but that’s just going too far, even for me. πŸ™‚ So my ultimate question to you, rephrased even once more, is this: Do sorted pellets of the advertised weight shoot more precisely than sorted pellets of another weight?

            Are you starting to feel like a guinea pig yet? Or is your head just hurting from reading this? πŸ™‚

            Now to relate this all back to the not-so-average 10-meter shooter. What if, to obtain the most precise results possible, only the printed-weight pellets could be shot from a tin? This could mean that a container of 500 pellets might only yield a small handful of “Olympic Hopefuls” after visual inspection and metering ruled out the rest. Heck, I don’t know, maybe that’s already how it’s done in a world class environment.

            – Orin


  57. i am no expert but i desembled all of my guns and then reasembled -fact trigger mechanism in diana is complicated when you don t know what you are doing,)slavija s are easy to tune and have good strong and simple mechanism.I am not familiar with most of the american air guns so i educate myself -i guess i have too much time :).Good night to me and pleasent day for all of you:-)





    • It’s ok man, you’re cool. I know what you mean about writing like you speak. Different languages put the subject and verb in a different order. For instance, in the US we say, “I am going to the gun store”. Then in other languages, when they speak, they would say, “To the gun store I go.” Some people make a living analyzing this stuff.


  58. I guess that i am still under influence of Bruce Willis in Die hard when he said something like this for Yugo.Yugo is not so bad car,in fact before war in Croatia most of us had one,not me i was a child but most of us…one more thing Croatia-Serbia in my name stands because i am serb in Croatia.Serbia and Croatia before Bosnia were in war.It wAs hard to be child after war 1991 our toys were gun shells and granades,mine fields still exist here…it affected both sides teriffic.I am a pacifist and still saine enough to know Serb,Croats,Bosnian …American we are all brothers,but Croats and Serbs share same language and most of the history so for me war is never a solution -i hope that somebody will reed this open minded ,)


    • Croatia-Serbia:
      Dober dan or dobra vech,
      I was lucky enough to go on holiday to a small harbour town in Croatia called Rovyn back in 1990.
      A lovely place and the people were very kind and generous folk.
      I was very sad when everything started to fall apart in the former Yugoslavia in the years after.
      As always it is the ordinary people who suffer most.
      Pardon my Croatian spelling it has been about 20 years since I went:)
      DaveUK


      • In fact that s not so bad DOBAR DAN ILI DOBRA VEČER I TEBI :)Yes i see you were in Rovinj istrian town on Adriatic sea or as we say JADRANSKO MORE.It s ok i struggle with my english too- and i lerned english in school


        • Croatia-Serbia:
          Thank you for the corrections.
          Rovinj of course,because you pronounce a ‘j’ like a ‘y’ I kind of got mixed up on that as well. πŸ™‚
          DaveUK


          • Yes we have few more letter in alphabet πŸ™‚ NJ,LJ,DΕ½… so
            it s more difficult for someone who speaks english to learn , but we dont use letter x and y


  59. You allready noticed that sometimes things that i write are “literal” cause as i said before in the spirit of our language is write like you speak so be free to point me if something is wrong couse sometimes words can have two meaning or just put in the context- but i know you will so thanks:)


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