by B.B. Pelletier
So, you’ve finally come to terms with the fact that you’ve been bitten by the airgun bug and now you want to do something about it. You have been reading everything you can find and you find that you’ve developed a taste for some of the vintage airguns of the past. They could be common guns such as Benjamins and Crosmans, or maybe you’re more eclectic and fancy a cased Webley Mark II Service rifle with three different barrels.
Finding a Webley Mark II Service rifle would be great. Finding a cased set with all three calibers would be fantastic!
Go where the fish are biting
Whatever the attraction, there are some things to consider before you charge blindly into the breech — pun intended. The first is obvious, except that most people seem to miss it: You can’t catch Marlin in the Mississippi River, and you can’t find rare and exotic airguns at most gun shows, either. You have to go to where the action is, and even then you may not find what you’re looking for.
Gun show finds can be anything, but the likelihood of them being rare and exotic airguns is slim. It does happen if you attend enough shows and talk to enough dealers, but gun shows are not the No. 1 place to find desirable airguns. Airgun shows, on the other hand, are great for it! So, instead of attending nine gun shows at a cost of $200, why not spend even more to attend just one good airgun show and increase your chances for success? In two days at one good airgun show, you can probably find hundreds of times more of what you want than in 10 years of attending local gun shows.
Buy what’s for sale
An old salesman’s adage is, “If you want to make the sales, you have to make the calls.” I’m going to modify it just a bit to this: “If you want to buy vintage airguns, the time to buy is when they’re for sale.” What I mean is that you should try to be open and flexible to the buys when they come your way. Instead of digging in your heels looking for a third variation of the Crosman 140 multi-pump air rifle, be open to a great buy on a Benjamin model 107 pistol in the box when you come across it.
Just recently, I saw a Benjamin model 107 pistol with 96 percent of the original black nickel finish. It was the most perfectly finished Benjamin pistol from the 1930s that I’ve ever seen. It was purchased at the airgun show in the original box with all the papers for $60! Why so cheap? Well, the trigger was broken. And the buyer guessed that the trigger had broken way back 80 years ago when the gun was new, because there was no finish wear on the pump rod. The gun had barely been used.
Benjamin’s earliest model air pistol was a front-pumper like this. It was finished with silver nickel over the brass body and black nickel over the silver. This pistol has about 80 percent of its black nickel, a high number for such a fragile finish.
A replacement trigger for this gun might cost $20 and the riskiest part of the entire transaction is scratching the finish when you install the new trigger in the gun. So, for $80 you’ve purchased a museum-grade vintage airgun in the box with all the paperwork. It just isn’t the Crosman third variation 140 you wanted. By digging in your heels and only settling for exactly what you’re seeking, you’re letting the treasures of the world pass you by.
I cannot tell you how many people make this mistake. They’re so fixated on just one airgun that they cannot see the cornucopia of values spilling out in front of them. They just want a red M&M, darn it, and that’s the only thing that will satisfy them. A year later I meet up with them again, and they’re off the red M&Ms. Now, they want the green ones that were being given away in bags the year before.
Buy what’s available to you if it’s a good deal and save it for later. If you buy right, you’ll soon have some very desirable items to trade for what you really want, or to trade when that unexpected great deal comes along. This year, I stocked up on vintage 10-meter rifles, not because I really need or even want them, but because each one represented a great deal, plus I know they’re so desirable to other collectors that I can use them as premier trade goods in the future.
Know something about airguns
When I started out in this business, there were way fewer than 100 airgun books in the English language. We clung to our Smith’s Standard Encyclopedia of Gas, Air and Spring guns of the World like it was a Bible; and if the guns we saw weren’t in there, it was just tough luck. Today, you have marvelous resources like the Blue Book of Airguns to tell you minute and trivial details of guns we knew nothing about just 30 years ago. And, yet, some airgunners would rather argue about all the mistakes there are in the Blue Book, just as some people argue about supposed inconsistencies in the Bible. You’ll do a lot better by just reading the book and committing it to memory, and that holds for both of them.
Learn to spot a fake
This is a difficult task, but it’s not impossible. Step one is to use some common sense. Nobody is going to fake a Crosman Mark I when there are tens of thousands of them still around. But a Daisy first model worth $3,000-$4,000 is fair game for the fakers. Last week, I was offered an 1858 Old Model Remington .44 caliber percussion revolver with about 90 percent of its finish. Had it been right, it would have been worth at least $2,000 to $2,500. The asking price was $300. That sent my antennae up fast. The marking on the gun looked wrong to me, and the Remington markings were far too faint, because other markings on the same surfaces of the gun were much deeper. Under a jeweler’s loupe, I could see that the letters were much larger than they should be. They were also uneven and looked nothing like the ones Remington used on these guns. I knew what to look for in this case, but even if I didn’t, the asking price was a pretty good signal that the gun was a fake.
A genuine Remington New Model 1858 Army like this one is worth at least $2,000 in this condition. A fake is worth nothing.
Don’t be afraid to ask the seller all about the item you’re interested in. Most people will not offer compromising information about a gun they’re selling when a deal is in the works, but the same people will also tell the truth when asked. So, learn to ask those penetrating questions. Is this the original finish? Does it hold air? Is it shooting as it should? Have any of the parts been replaced? The higher the asking price, the longer your list of questions should be.
Learn the particular weaknesses of the models you want
Here’s what I mean. If you want to buy a Schimel pistol in good condition, check to see if the barrel has welded itself to the frame over the years. Look for shrinkage of the hard rubber grips. Look for cracks in the backstrap. Check to see if the seals are modern, or if they’re the type that swell in the presence of CO2 gas. The Schimel was ahead of its time in design, but the materials of the early 1950s from which it was built were not up to the tasks to which they were put.
A beautiful Schimel gas pistol from the 1950s, but this old design had problems with dissimilar metals welding themselves over the decades, plus gross shrinkage of the plastic grip panels. Not many airgunsmiths can reseal one today, either.
If you want a Sheridan Supergrade, know that it has to be cocked before you pump it, otherwise the valve will leak air. Know that the end of the shot tube on a Daisy No. 25 pump-action BB gun has to align with the air tube on the end of the piston. You can break a Daisy No. 25 just by incorrectly inserting the shot tube.
The Sheridan model A, called the Supergrade by collectors, is the same size and power as the Blue Streak, but it’s worth considerably more. It must be cocked before it will accept a fill.
Learn to look!
How many times have I bought guns that I didn’t examine closely enough to spot obvious faults? On breakbarrels, it’s often a bent barrel. Many people want to see how fast the barrel will close if they fire the gun with the barrel broken open, and you’ll always find these barrels bent upward at the point where they enter the baseblock. Don’t believe these people for a second when they tell you they weren’t aware of this fault in their gun, or that the barrel slammed shut on its own. This was a deliberate act, and nobody shoots a gun that hits 10 inches high at 10 yards without knowing it!
Then, there are the guns without sights! Unless you look for them, the sights are easy to miss. Maybe that beautiful compact scope has distracted you from noticing that this target rifle is missing $500 worth of target sights! A $50 scope can distract you from this critical cost accessory, and you’ll never recoup your losses. And on some guns, the loss can be considerable, because the sights are next to impossible to find.
I’m adding this last part to encourage you guys who are just getting started or want to start collecting soon. Today, I heard from a close gun-trading buddy about two guns he just bought for $1,250. One of them is a very desirable collectible Winchester that I immediately told him is worth $1,400 by itself. But he told me he was seeing the same gun in the same condition on Gun Broker going for $2,200 with four bids and five days of bidding remaining! The other gun was also a collectible handgun worth at least $500. But the seller never looks on the internet, so he doesn’t know this. He goes by the values listed in the Blue Book of Gun Values, which are sometimes deeply undervalued.
I’m not saying that you should try to hurt someone in a deal, but in this case, the seller set the price! When that happens, don’t argue, just act. Be ready when the bluebird of happiness lands on you or when you get beaten senseless with the lucky stick!
Tomorrow, I’m going to a local gun store to try to trade two valuable firearms for an extremely desirable collectible rifle that I believe to be severely undervalued. I’ve been watching this rifle for the past five years, and now I’m in a position to do something about it. The store may reject my offer or they may want more than I’m offering, but if the deal goes through I will share all the juicy details with you.
I labeled this report Part 1 so I could return to the subject with additional information. There’s certainly more to be added, but I’ll see what sort of response this one creates before writing anything further.
108 thoughts on “The art of collecting airguns – Part 1”
For those who were interested in the new Discovery/22xx repeater breech available soon, see
Thanks for the link. That Discovery is what I was hoping to see in the Katana. Any idea of what the selling price might be?
From what I remember, it will be in the $90-$100 range.
Outstanding link! This will make the 2250 exactly what I outlined for an ultra carbine!
I made another batch of ballistic jelly but now have also add some aroma in the mix ,now i just hope that somebody won’t eat it
Next time try some buck lure or cover scent. Nobody will eat it then.
Your only problem will be where to store it.
twotalon althou the scent is banana i dont think that there is anybody stupid enough to eat jello with pellets inside and tough like rubber i was kidding 🙂 ,mmm ….. buck urine ,doe estrus and doe urine…. ballistic jello that also could be used as a BAIT ,na …i’ll continue to use scents for cooking ;),yust to figure out what is doe and buck(buck is i think i think big deer )
I have just found one funny advertise for buck scent “Buck lures that work,make the game hunt you” 🙂
Sounds like an after shave I once had called ‘Hai Karate’ lol
BB,I only wish you wrote some of this a few thousand $$ ago…..but I’m probably too daft to have benefitted.The only thing I would add is Always be a gentleman.
…And watch out for “convenient ignorance” of airguns.If an airgun is being offered by someone you have seen sell alot of airguns,ask yourself WHY he’s claiming to not know if it holds Co2 or shoots.Assume that is code for “it needs resealed”,and factor that in the price…
You are right. “Don’t know if it holds air/CO2” usually means he knows it needs resealed. As does “sold as is”, “no returns” and various other disclaimers as to condition of the item. If you can get them cheap enough and are willing to do the repairs or pay for them then go for it. Just make sure the repair parts are available and that it can be done.
Some people are just dishonest. I would much rather do business with a person who tells me exactly what is wrong with his item and sells it at a price which compensates for the flaws.
Amen to that.There are some extraordinary folks out there…just not all of them.A sob story or too much information can be authentic,or a reason to question EVERYTHING you are reading.When too good to be true presents itself….by all means proceed carefully.There’s almost always a tell in a scam
if you look for it.I’ll save some more first hand stuff for part two.
Yes, always be a gentleman and always assume that CO2 guns need to be resealed. Two good points.
Oh, and by the way, a few thousand dollars ago I was still learning all this stuff, the same as you. I wish someone else had written it and that I had been smart enough to read, understand and apply it.
There was a guy I used to know who was and avid shooter and builder of muzzleloaders.
He told me about a few ways that fakers age a gun to make it look original.
He told me about a time at a gun show that another guy walked up to him and showed him an old pistol he had just bought and was very proud of it. Chuck thought something about the gun looked very familiar, and told the guy to look in a particular place for a particular kind of mark.
Sure enough there was Chuck’s mark right where he said it would be. He told me that the guy changed quite a few colors and headed off looking for somebody.
“Beaten senseless with the lucky stick”. Never heard that one before–thanks. Being out there as a knowledgeable seeker all the time sure helps swing that lucky stick.
I get the idea that you go for ‘target of opportunity’ more so than simply having a fixed objective.
Twotalon,by being open for stuff you’re not looking for,sometimes you stub your toe on a real screamer.I like old breakbarrels with that quality construction you really pay for these days….even if the gun is tiny compared to today.I bought a tiny Haenel .177 from the 30’s for a little over $100,and the buyer asked if I was interested in an old Swedish pumper.I ended up getting a Swedish “Excellent”
model C1 made in 1914-for $400.It barely looks 20 yrs old,and it’s so rare that Ingvar Alm,who helped Dr.Beeman write about the “Excellent” model values…has NEVER seen one!(and he’s Swedish,and collects them!)
I don’t remain rigid in any plan. Sometimes I have a specific goal, such as tomorrow’s expedition. But other times I just take what comes.
What happened to Webley Alecto Part III ?
It’s coming next week.
NOOOOOOO, not the Alecto, if it’s accurate I’ll want to buy one!
The old ‘Cash is king’ saying holds true.
Since being cash poor(credit fine)I have sure missed out on some non air gun bargains.
Or…money talks, BS walks.
“And, yet, some airgunners would rather argue about all the mistakes there are in the Blue Book, just as some people argue about supposed inconsistencies in the Bible. You’ll do a lot better by just reading the book and committing it to memory, and that holds for both of them.”
You da MAN! Best advice I have seen you give on any blog! Especially about the Bible! I don’t own a Blue Book, but do have around 5 or 6 Bibles. Reading and memorizing it and trying to apply it to my life has made a huge difference in my life AND my outlook!
I am not that interested in trying to find real gun bargains but perhaps I should be. Maybe in the future I will get a Blue Book.
God Bless you and Edith man! Keep up the good work on this blog. I really enjoy and appreciate your and Edith’s efforts!
Speaking of collectibles and bargains, I hope to acquire a Diana Model 5V this weekend. The seller says it’s in perfect condition but we’ll see……
Maybe it won’t be a bargain.
And this is your barber’s gun?
What, me ask Tony the Barber for a gun? Those guys don’t screw around with airguns – maybe .22’s with suppressors but not airguns :). Yagottaproblem wid dat?
No, this is a fellow at the train station that’s retired and is working at the coffee stand. He says he also collects and has quite a bit of Civil War memorabilia that he’d like to donate to a museum. I’ll keep the blog informed and if anyone is interested, this could be another Blog I’ll do down the road.
Yes to a guest blog.
BB: this is a good primer for folks new to collecting and I’m glad you have started this series of blogs. I am looking forward to your adventure with that gun you are trying for.
On the missing sights on guns . It is also good to be aware of collectable sights and scopes on otherwise dogs of collectable guns. That is how I aquired my Fecker taget scope, my Litchert Lyman , and if I could post pictures to this blog ,I would show several guns that are very collectable but have serious flaws that affect their value , but have vintage sights on them that are worth as much as the guns would be worth if the guns were perfect. One example, is a Winchester 62 pump .22, with Marbles tang peep that has both aperatures, and also a Marbles mid- barrel folding open sight. There is also has a folding front on this pump,with an ivory bead or a pin aperature . This gun has what you call a folk art carving of a puma in the butt stock , and the finish is silver from handling, but is otherwise in perfect mechanical shape. I paid $225 dollars for this 62 at a show and I sure didn’t dicker or dink around. Personally I never tire kick at shows and if you price something cheap I sure won’t feel sorry for the seller. In my experience , the bottom line is look hard at and for the wall flowers, Robert.
You are absolutely right about sights and scopes attached to guns increasing their value. In airguns, for instance, there are the Beeman SS1/2/3 series of short scopes that command premiums, as well as the model 66 regular scope.
Stocks can be another valuable item on some guns.
No, I’m afraid of P.T. Barnum’s supposed sayin, “There’s a sucker born every minute”. My basement would be full of “Born every minute rifles”. Maybe in 10 years, but then I’d start worrying what my heirs would do with them all.
CJr.,My favorite bumper sticker….also applies to airguns.”When I die,my biggest fear is that my wife will sell all my fishing tackle….for what I told her it cost!!!!”
That’s hilarious… It also apply to anykind of collection.
The bad side it’s probably also be true for the pairs of shoes and/or purses your lady has. 😉
I just stopped laughing….now you have me thinking!
If your serious about does and bucks, does are female and bucks are male. Nothing to do with size. (Just me trying to show I might know something.)
CJr i was serious,thank you !
Bucks are bigger. More meat. Good meat. Great meat. Yummy meat.
I need to kill another deer.
Yes ,but the little ones are more tender. Take advantage of antlerless deer permits. Kill bambi and his mom, not his old man if you want bigger deer and healthier herds. Most fawns don’t make their second year anyway. Protect the resource, it is great meat. Folks watch to much big buck TV. Personally I haven’t found any good receipes for antlers, I’ve got a pile of them if someone does,Robert.
I don’t care about antlers either.
Given a choice, I would like the bigger ones, but have eaten ‘nubs’ too. Not as much meat, but easier to carry back out.
Biggest secret I can figure out is to bag them when they just get out of bed. If they have been running hard they get tough and nasty. They still make good jerky though.
Yes the deer meat isn’t bad. You won’t believe but that is on the menu today in my house 🙂 it is a bit tough to chew .
You need to cook it right. Cook it slow and don’t let it get dry.
I know but i wasn’t making it ,i would cook this wright ,you gotta leave it to marinade…
Marinate -sorry i
Has the doc eased off on your diet restrictions yet?
I just had another ‘jump’. The improvement goes very slow for a long time, then suddenly there is a jump. Most recently a sudden increase in saliva and improved taste in several different kinds of food.
I have no restrictions but it is a matter of what I can stand to eat. It is so much better when I want to eat something and it tastes good too. The cats are getting fewer leftovers.
I’m pretty much able to eat what I want now. I just can’t eat too much of it. My appetite has shrunk permanently. I guess that’s a good thing.
About the same for me too. I just don’t have the desire to pig out like I used to. I think I got used to not eating so much because food did not taste very good. That and not having much appetite in the first place.
Oh no, B.B. is on the hunt for a good deal. Time to count the cash and mutter. Ha ha. I wish I could see this. That’s an interesting point about the need to be flexible. One of the traits of expert learners is the ability to be “fluent” in problem solving approaches rather than stick with one method. The other trait that comes to mind is the ability to “chunk” by putting information into well-organized blocks.
pcp4me, yes, the TF 59 was the rifle I was thinking about. That’s good to hear your evaluation. I couldn’t help wondering if the accuracy numbers quoted were a fluke. I’ve never heard of the Crosman Storm and don’t see it on the PA site. Sorry to hear about the arthritis. Believe me, I understand. Maybe you should try Methotrexate. It has just about worked a miracle for me although I know that medication is like pellets which need to be chosen for the particular gun.
Terrific news about the Ballistol! Okay folks, now is the time for all good men (and women) to come to the aid of their PArty, and you will need to be in a hurry to get ahead of me.
BG_Farmer, whatever their reason, the framers of this California ammo law are making things difficult for me. The word is that one reason this has gone through is that local ammo dealers believe this will cut them into a share of the market that is currently going out-of-state to the online retailers. Sure enough, I called around yesterday and none of the gun stores I have access to will special order ammo. The shooting coalition has been split as these people stab me in the back! “Well, you duffers,” says the gambler whipping out a pair of cocked revolvers from under his coat…., I’m not done yet. I have just laid in a 7 year supply of Wolf Target Match ammo for my Anschutz, so ha. It looks like the only real casualty in all of this will be reloading for my .45.
I can make 300 rounds an hour on my Dillon Square Deal B press. I can’t shoot it that fast.
What is my NRA code (again) for discount on the PA site?
Sorry, memory is the first thing to………..go?
Brian in Idaho
They just sent me an advertisement for an R9. Is that itching you if you got one too?
Ya, if I wasn’t so happy with my 97K, I would be all over that R9!
Besides, the wife is on to me $$$!!!
I put the Maccari kit in mine yesterday.
Cocks harder now. The first few shots were a good ‘thwop’. Before, all I head was the spring. I went out to zero again and it started buzzing again. Not as bad as before.
Went to adjust the scope and found that the adjustment knobs had shaken loose.
Seems to have picked up a little velocity. Nothing extreme.
I realize that this is totally unrelated but I need your help desperately in order to make a decision about the caliber that would be best to choose when purchasing the Air Arms Pro Sport. I have already decided to purchase the Pro Sport in walnut. I already have an Air Arms TX 200 Mk III in LH walnut in .177 caliber. I would prefer to select the .22 caliber version. However, after researching information from another website about velocity results I find the following comparative information: Using a Kodiak 10.60 gr pellet produced a muzzle velocity of 832 fps with a corresponding energy of 16 ft.lbs. fired from a .177 cal. Pro Sport. At 25 yds. the velocity is indicated as 707 fps with a corresponding energy of 12 ft.lbs. In comparison, firing a .22 cal. Crow Magnum 18.20 gr. pellet produced a muzzle velocity of 603 fps with a corresponding energy of 15 ft.lbs. At 25 yds. the velocity is 538 with a corresponding energy of 12 ft.lbs. It seems that at 25 yds. the energy is practically identical. What are the advantages, in your professional opinion, to select the Pro Sport in .22 cal. over the .177 cal. (when these seem so similar in terms of energy yet so different in terms of velocity which means I would need to compensate more with the .22 cal. for trajectory variables) for HUNTING purposes since I am anticipating that most of my hunting would include crows, rabbits, squirrels at that distance. I really appreciate your input regarding this matter as I will make a final decision based on your advice. Thank you.
Well, no one I know uses Beeman Crow Magnum pellets for hunting. They are too inaccurate.
If you can check it, check the downrange performance of a Beeman Kodiak. Or a JSB Exact 18.1-grain pellet. Those are the true long-range hunting pellets for a .22 rifle.
My choice would also be .22 in a Pro Sport. In .177 it is a little too fast for best accuracy.
Now, that is only my opinion. When asked I will always vote for a .22 over a .177 for hunting, so know that I am biased that way.
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here but, even though the ft/lbs are the same or the .177 is greater, doesn’t the greater mass and diameter of the .22 do a better job of killing the prey than the .177? Doesn’t the .177 have a better chance of just passing through the target and not doing enough damage to be a humane kill?
A slow moving brick thumps harder than a fast moving bicycle spoke.
I have done in much bigger and tougher critters with a .177, but it has to be done perfectly. A .22 is a better thumper .
What if hunting wasn’t part of the equation?
I still have a very bad Marauder itch and I’m looking at ways to import it legally to Canada but really have no idea on wich caliber to choose.
If you’re not hunting then there is no need for anything other than .177. Plus it’s cheaper and can be used for competition venues.
I tested a .177 Marauder for just that reason. Hunting was NOT part of the equation. The smaller pellets are cheaper. I’d got with the .177.
Thank you, to both of you.
.177 it will be then. Unless I can get my hands on the marauder pistol first wich is only available in .22.
Just a followup: I have a Marauder in .22. It is a fantastic rifle. I bought it in .22 because I wanted at least one gun I could hunt with. Alas, I don’t hunt, and I don’t see hunting in my future. I do like to shoot in the AirgunArena online eMatches but they are restricted to .177. Why don’t I sell it? 1.) I still want a .22 just for the experience, 2.) I like the Marauder too much, 3.) It’s too hard to ship guns in and out of Illinois. Have to go through a FFL holder (dealer). Why don’t I buy a .177 Marauder? A question I keep asking myself, but then I keep looking for that new rifle that will take my heart.
To reinforce my and BB’s previous comments, if you have no intention of hunting go with the .177, which apparently you have already chosen to do.
If you’re not satisfied, maybe we can trade guns for a while.
Thank you again CJr.
The only reason I would still go with the .22 is my hands. I should go back to see the doc because I have bad carpal tunnel problems in both hands and surgery on my right hand over a year ago doesn’t seem to have made a change. Loading small pellets one by one isn’t problematic but loading a mag like the marauder has could literally become a pain and I may be tempted to go on .22 for that, only a talk with my doc will help me solve that part.
About the switching rifles for a while… If you think it’s complicated to ship guns in Illinois try it anywhere in Canada LOL. 😉 but thanks for the offer.
Give me about 15-20 minutes and I’ll make you a video of loading the Marauder mag on Youtube.
WOW, thank you for the really great offer, I really appreciate it, but I’ve already watched Paul Capello 2 part review of the marauder including how it’s loaded countless time (did I mention I badly wanted this rifle 😉 ) and loading 10 small pellets into each mag (because I plan on getting more than one) might be problematic.
It won’t stop me from getting the rifle (and probably the pistol too) but If I can save myself some pain by putting .22 caliber pellets into the mags instead of .177 I’ll buy that caliber, if it’s the same (which I think will probably be the case) I’ll just stand the pain while I’m reloading, it’s not like I’m not used to it.
Do you have a TX200? I have been itching to get my hands on a Marauder to try it out, but there are no airgun stores in Vegas. If you’d be interested in trying out my TX with Vortek kit, I’d absolutely jump at the opportunity to give your Marauder a workout. The only problem is that I don’t have any way to fill a PCP, so if you have a hand pump, I’d need that too. Let me know if that is something you might possibly be interested in.
Oops, I meant to include my e-mail address. It’s OrinHerndon@gmail.com.
The information is taken from Straight Shooters website (velocity test results section). It does not publish information about the Beeman Kodiak and the JSB Exact 18.1 gr. in .22 cal. It does list the JSB Exact 15.9 gr pellet and indicates a muzzle velocity of 678 fps with a corresponding energy value of 16 fpe. At 25 yds. this same pellet has a velocity rating of 601 fps with a corresponding energy value of 13 fpe. In the meantime I had read your review of the Air Arms TX 200 Mark III (part 1) and noted with interest your comment that “I don’t care much for the Pro Sport. I find it harsh, difficult to cock and more difficult to shoot accurately.” Also, you stated, “I like the performance curve of the .177 best in the TX200……….I believe the TX200 isn’t as good a .22 as it is a .177.” Am I to assume that the Pro Sport would also not be as “good”/efficient in .22 cal. as it would be in .177 cal.? If that is the case, perhaps I should be looking at a different aigun for a hunting spring rifle. I already have a LH Beeman R1/HW80 in 20 cal., a Diana 56 TH in 20 cal. and a Diana 350 magnum in .177 cal. And an FX Independence pcp in .22 cal. So maybe I don’t need another airgun for hunting. I was so enamored by the apparent beauty of the Pro Sport and found out that I could obtain a left-handed version of this particular airgun that I was considering very seriously about purchasing it. However, I assume there is very little difference between the TX200 & Pro Sport in terms of accuracy that there may be very little to gain in spending $800-$900. Your thoughts? I really respect your opinion on this and I told the lady at Pyramyd Air that I would contact her with a decision about ordering the Pro Sport but I wanted your opinion/thoughts/recommendations before making a final decision. Thanks very much.
Why did I say what I said about the Pro Sport? Well, when Air Arms located the cocking linkage rear pivot fulcrum, they didn’t put it far enough to the rear. Hence when you cock the Pro Sport it torques in your hands a lot, while the TX 200 cocks very smoothly.
The Pro Sport is copied after a $4,000 rifle Ivan Hancock built, called the Mach II, and it is as smooth as glass. Unfortunately I shot one of those rifles a lot, so I was comparing the Pro Sport to that. But the Pro Sport has none of its refinements and shoots very harshly. The TX 200, in contrast, shoots smoothly right out of the box (your experience notwithstanding).
But here is some wisdom I can pass along. Whenever a person becomes fascinated with a certain airguns, the ONLY cure is for them to own that gun! Then you will have the chance to experience it firsthand. You may find that I am all wet and that you love the Pro Sport. I have known several people who did just that. I even knew of a fellow who shot a Pro Sport in field target for a short time.
As for the caliber thing, I would just forget it. At what range do you think you can no longer hold your rifle to hit a one inch target? That’s your maximum range for long-range shots, if you want to remain humane. At that distance, a .22 will retain more than enough energy to get the job done. Forget the numbers and learn the rifle.
When I was the publisher of Airgun Illustrated I had a couple guys who called themselves the Urban Hunters. They were killing pigeons at 56 yards with shots from Beeman R7s and HW 55s. They killed hundreds of corn-eating birds every year that way. If those pipsqueak airguns can do it, a Pro Sport should have no difficulty.
Correction. The Diana 56 TH is in .22 cal. not .20 cal. To my knowledge, the 56 TH is not offered in .20 cal. I do like TwoTalon’s idea about a slow moving brick thumping harder than a fast moving bicyle spoke. Has anyone out there had any actual experience hunting quarry such as crows, squirrels, rabbits with a .22 caliber Pro Sport or a .22 cal. TX 200 Mark III and, if so, what kind of a job does it do at approximately 25 – 40 yards in terms of its lethality? Maybe I am expecting too much out of this rifle. If that is the case then perhaps I would be beter off using it for FT in the .177 cal. And then why would I need it when I have an Air Arms TX 200 Mark III (which previously sat in my closet collecting dust after it was returned from Pyramyd Air due to a problem with the cocking lever button resulting from tremendous vibration until I took it to a gun tuner locally in Phoenix who did a masterful job on it and I now love to shoot it regularly. In fact, it has now become one of my favorite airguns)?
Just in case you wondered, I like a fast moving brick better.
Out to 40 yds you will have to be pretty good to do brain shots from the right angle. Boiler room shots will be the usual. You need power for a good thump at those distances.
Rabbits are soft and don’t need much killing power, but tree rats are tough. Crows have their feathers for armor.
A .22 that can produce as much power as possible without being hard to shoot would be my choice.
I would like 800 fps or better at the muzzle. Preferably more.
In that case, I’ll simply get out the Independence. Based on a 10 shot string using JSB Exact Express 14.35 gr. pellets, my chronograph revealed the following results:
Ave. velocity= 955 fps;
Energy calculation=29 ft.lbs.
I can tell you that it shoots pellet on top of pellet at 12 meters. I am limited to that distance only due to the size of my back yard. I have not yet taken it to the range as it is necessary to drive 25 miles. Aside from that, I would welcome any comments from B.B. regarding recommendations about the Pro Sport before I contact Pyramyd Air regarding an order.
Wait a minute… you have a multi-shot .22 PCP that you can recharge in the field, and you’re looking for a single shot spring piston rifle to hunt with? I don’t get it. Did I miss something in this conversation?
And if you need to “get out” the Independence, you have way too many guns. I’d gladly alleviate you of any burdensome dust gatherers if you find yourself in need of more storage space. 🙂
I would use my TSS if I had the .22 barrel in, or my D48.Of course the Talondor would mash them.
I have bought my most recent because I really liked the looks and the review. It’s B.B.’s fault.
For anything but small game I have trouble deciding what to use. I don’t need more airguns, but once in a while the bug bites me.
You like pellet rifles and shooting and apparently you like accumulating them. Nothing wrong with that. But beware, you’ll never be satisfied with one gun no matter what it is. If you’re not already, you will soon become like most of us on this blog. Get what you like, get what your curiosity needs to be satisfied, get what you think looks like fun. Old guns can be resold. New guns need to be tried. Even if you don’t get back what you paid that’s ok, sometimes you’ll get back more. The only real price you pay is you must tell us about your experience. Then, go sell it on the Yellow and buy another.
I recommend you buy the gun that you are fascinated with–the Pro Sport. It’s the only way to scratch that itch.
I experience those bug bites more than “once in a while”. I think Orin is correct. I better get back to reality and use the guns I have. Except the looks of the Pro Sport is sooooooo enticing, especially now that I know it is possible to purchase it in the left hand version. I have never experienced anything like the desire I have for airguns in the more than forty years that I had been using centerfire guns for target shooting and hunting. No one ever told me about the addictive quality that airguns bring to the table!
The 97K got me like that. I can usually shake it off after a while if I have time to cool off, but not with this one.
Perhaps derrick will chime in on the Air Arms Pro Sport. He just got one with a gorgeous walnut stock.
Hey, twotalon, did I make a mistake selecting the Beeman R1 over the HW 97KT? The guys at AofA talked me out of it. Plus the R1 was considerably less expensive. And it shoots like a DREAM! It is so smooth but it only shoots JSB 20 cal.13.73 grainers at 694 fps. It comes out to 14.7 fpe. I’m afraid to have a tuner monkey around with it because it is so much fun shooting it the way it is. I was expecting more power than that. I thought an R1 was supposed to be an 18 fpe airgun.
Never had an R1 so I could not tell you.
My 97 runs in the mid to lower 800’s in .177. Darn accurate, but heavy as all get out.
FX fanatic….If you want a heavy hitting lefty,I have a DAQ .308 available in southpaw.If you can line up a crow,a rabbit and a squirrel…you can bag all three in one shot!
just finished installing Charliedatuna’s gprIII trigger in the Benjamin Trail NP. Much, Much improvement – creep is gone. Need a bit more adjustment as I don’t really have a first stage but we’ll get there. Thanks, Charlie.
Wishing you and your family, a Very Happy Diwali and a Prosperous New Year Ahead….
It’s so nice to see you post again. We’ve been wondering what you’ve been up to now?
May the way, we’re going to send you our President. Why don’t you guys keep him there for a year or two.
And you don’t need to give us anything!
We might pay you to keep him too.
Send India 1 billion dollars a day to keep him, and we would still save a bundle.
Consider it an early Christmas present. Not as good as a new airgun but it is the thought that counts.
I should clarify. The President would be the present, not the billion dollars a day, sorry!
I’m with Bruce. We welcome you back after so long!
You know, Mumbai is now featured on an American situational comedy on television called “Outsourced.” I don’t know where they film the show, but the establishing shots all appear to be on location in Mumbai.
You have a very colorful city!
To: Frank B
Yeah, I have a 40 year old Remington 700 BDL LH in 7mm Rem. Magnum that could probably waste all those animals if lined up together also with one shot. I remember my hunting partner shooting a jackrabbit in North Dakota in the dead of winter at about 100 yards with his 30.06 and all you could see is a puff of fur flying in the air. I assume the DAQ .308 is a centerfire rifle(?) I am new to the airgun hobby.
Not a firearm. DAQ = Dennis A. Quackenbush of Quackenbush Air Guns. He specializes in big bores and custom machined parts.
Here’s a page on his .308 Exile, for instance.
Nasty looking guns Orin ,i envy you guys we here are about to meet same restrictive destiny like DaveUK ,guess that’s becouse we have to enter in EU …..sigh 🙁
I checked out the website. That’s some incredible airgun power!
I’m a day late here but I figure the comments go better here. You mentioned buying what is for sale. I often see that flexibility is the difference between a guy who enjoyed an airgun show and one that didn’t.
It always amazes me how many real deals there are at the airgun shows that go unclaimed. I think the reason for that is that most of us go with only a few hundred dollars of play money. We hate to spend it on a good deal if it’s not what we are interested in because of what we might miss for lack of cash. A guy with a lot of cash on hand could make a killing by guying up a lot of good deals and then selling them on the classifieds. I usually buy a few guns just to resell but it’s more fun for me of it is at least something I have not owned before so I can experience a different airgun before selling it.
Well you get it anyway. I had it prepared before you replied. This gives you one more perspective.
Thank you very much.
That doesn’t seem too hard. The vid is about 1:30 but without the explaining it’s probably under a minute to reload so that wouldn’t be too hard.
I could reload one mag, pump a little air in the rifle, load another mag, pump a little more air in the rifle etc. that shouldn’t be too hard. I just hope I can import the rifle here.
Thank you very much again it’s greatly appreciated (and those diving vids look great).
I don’t think PA will ship a Marauder to Canada. If my three functioning brain cells are working correctly, I think CowBoyStar Dad was looking at one.
I know for sure they won’t ship a marauder to Canada (in fact they can’t ship any airguns here) but I go to the US a few times a year (I was there a month ago and came back with 6 airguns and I’m going back in a week or two to bring here the new car my mom just bought) so I can have the rifle shipped to me while in the US and import it back here IF it’s legal to do so since it’s considered a firearm because it shoots over 500fps, I’m not sure if it’s legal or not since it has a 10 shot mag it could be considered a restricted firearm which would be near to impossible to import and is also why I didn’t try to import it illegally but since you have to work a bolt between each shot it should be ok… should (crosses finger).
A little research right here on past blogs gave me this on the Marauder :
“I waited for months for this gun to come out and kept calling the supplier to make sure I got one when they arrived.
I was finally told that because they are so quiet, the Canadian gov’t won’t allow them in the country!!!”
and this :
“Apparently the Marauder cannot be imported into Canada because its shroud is considered to be a silencer. People up here are not happy.”
And also found this :
“the acfc just banned the gun because of the sound suppressor. Our Government in all its wisdom now list it as prohibited”
here : http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28053
So I guess there will be no Marauder for me 🙁 seems the Talon SS was also banned for the same reason.
Man that REALLY sucks…
How hard is it to get a green card in the US? I’m thinking about moving south a little.
The good news is I’m REALLY, REALLY, REALLY happy not to have tried importing it illegally here, I can’t seem to imagine the reaction my wife would have had when I would have called her “honey I’m really sorry, I won’t be home on time, because I’m going to jail because I tried importing a prohibited firearm in the country” I can’t believe how dumb this all is.
RE: How far does a 10 gr. pellet travel, starting out at supersonic speeds before it drops below supersonic?
OK, Pete Z has graciously declined to do the calculations so before I try to do a rough calculation and screw everything up, I’m going to plan B. Brother Stu works at the Army Munitions Command at Picatinny Arsenal. I’m certain someone there has access to ballistic software that can calculate this so I will appeal to him for some help. Hey, these guys work for the government – they should have plenty of time on their hands.
I’m a bit concerned that I haven’t gotten a call yet from the fellow at the coffee shop to see him this weekend to buy that Diana 5V. Hopefully, I’ll hear from him tomorrow.
The speed of sound is 1126 FPS at sea level on a dry, 68 degree day. 1100 FPS will keep things simple.
According to ChairGun…
Let’s assume a best case real-life scenario and use the highest BC 10 gr pellet I know of, the JSB Heavy (actually 10.3 gr). According to extensive research done by others, the BC changes at different velocities, but we’ll use the figure that Chairgun has for it, which is .0310.
For the given muzzle velocities, here are the distances the pellet travels before dropping below 1100 FPS:
1500 FPS = 83 yards
1400 FPS = 64 yards
1300 FPS = 44 yards
1200 FPS = 23 yards
1150 FPS = 11 yards
A Crosman Premier Heavy, at 10.5 gr, has a ChairGun BC of .0250:
1500 FPS = 67 yards
1400 FPS = 52 yards
1300 FPS = 36 yards
1200 FPS = 18 yards
1150 FPS = 9 yards
Orin – this is outstanding! Gives us all an idea of what it would take to maintain accuracy with an air rifle firing a pellet that’s more in line for supersonic travel. I knew from my basic research that the BC changes according to velocity and probably atmospheric conditions (pressure, temperature) but I, too, wanted it simplified. I have asked my brother to use a 10 grain pellet with a BC of .031 so let’s see what our tax dollars say.
No problem. I’m looking forward to hearing what your brother comes up with!
Something to keep in mind is that a subsonic pellet falls away from the sound barrier while a supersonic pellet falls toward it. The transonic region is as much as a couple hundred FPS in either direction. So similarly to how the best accuracy results are generally achieved below 950 FPS, a supersonic pellet would theoretically perform best if it never dropped below 1300 FPS. That drastically reduces the distance it can travel and remain stable. Just for kicks, here are the ChairGun numbers on those JSB Heavies if we pull the plug at 1300 FPS:
1500 FPS = 38 yards
1400 FPS = 19 yards
1350 FPS = 10 yards
This is what I was looking for! After some dicussion on sub-supersonic versus supersonic, I was left with some questions, and I believe that this gives me some good insight.
Why have the pictures stoped appering in the pyramydair blogs this started on Dec 23rd thanks fore the help.
The pictures have not stopped appearing in the blog. It’s something on your end…either your browser or your ISP. No one else has said they’re experiencing any issues seeing images.